#trinity-desktop < 2024/05/15 >
[00:02]inverted_rabbit: ceux: https://xmpp.worlio.com:5281/file_share/fQeN3e2yTJZ4_4S34wW3_cu6/rec-2024-05-14_18.57.14.mp4
[00:02]inverted_rabbit: Sorry, missed the message until now.
[00:04]inverted_rabbit: This problem exists with any Trinity context menu, not just Konqeurors. I just experience it the most with Konqueror.
[00:20]inverted_rabbit: Going through all the styles right now. Out of all the ones I have, these have the issue: .NET style, Asteroid style, B3/KDE, HighColor Classic, HighContrast, Keramik, Phase, and TDE Classic.
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[02:23]micheleC: @inverted_rabbit: can't see the video. Can you explain what the problem is?
[02:24]inverted_rabbit: On most Trinity styles, context submenus can't be hovered over when the submenu appears on the left.
[02:24]micheleC: ah I see. Can you open an issue on TGW so we don't forget about it? possibly add steps to reproduce it
[02:25]micheleC: @adamk: not at the moment, AFAICT. Would be a good improvement
[02:25]inverted_rabbit: I talk about my issues here incase there is more to learn from them. It is always my intention to submit an issue.
[02:25]micheleC: great, thanks (y)
[02:28]inverted_rabbit: Uh, could somebody copy my messages for me? My gateway history didn't save properly so I cannot see my previous messages and I didn't save the list of styles I tested it on.
[02:30]micheleC: the channel is publicly logged. See here for today's mesages and you can also navigate to the past
[02:30]micheleC: https://www.trinitydesktop.org/irc/logs/trinity-desktop/2024/05/15/
[02:30]tde-bot: Page title: #trinity-desktop logs
[02:30]inverted_rabbit: I forgot.
[02:30]micheleC: (y)
[02:31]inverted_rabbit: What repo should I even report this issue on? tdebase?
[02:32]micheleC: probably tqt3. popup menus are based on TQPopupMenu class
[02:32]micheleC: or TDE/tde, if you think it could be style specific
[02:32]inverted_rabbit: So this would be a bug with the TQt handling of certain TDE styles?
[02:33]inverted_rabbit: There are a few styles it isn't broken on.
[02:33]inverted_rabbit: https://xmpp.worlio.com:5281/file_share/hAehtSYhMZMiLA9peOw_l89t/rec-2024-05-14_18.57.14.webm
[02:33]micheleC: ah then TDE/tde is more appropriate.
[02:33]inverted_rabbit: Here is the same video in a different format if it helps understand better. I'll be adding that to the issue of course.
[02:34]micheleC: ah I see the video. interesting bug :-)
[02:38]micheleC: just tried to reproduce the issue using TDE Classic style, following the video. It seems to work fine
[02:41]inverted_rabbit: Hmm. Wonder what we have that is different.
[02:42]micheleC: also tried B3/KDE and High Contrast and seems ok
[02:42]micheleC: did you try with a clean user and see if it happens?
[02:43]inverted_rabbit: I did, and with TDE Classic.
[02:44]micheleC: hmm... not really sure what it could be. Not saying it is not an issue, just I can't reproduce here
[02:44]micheleC: maybe graphic driver related??
[02:45]inverted_rabbit: Unrelated. I've had this issue for awhile and have switched graphics cards and drivers a few times, from AMD to Nvidia.
[02:45]micheleC: ok
[02:46]micheleC: mouse related maybe??
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[02:49]inverted_rabbit: Issue made. #172 in TDE/tde
[02:50]inverted_rabbit: micheleC: You mean my mouse peripheral or the cursor settings?
[02:52]inverted_rabbit: Just installed Polyester and it's style does not exhibit this issue, which is nice because I like it. That is my solution for now. :P
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[03:05]micheleC: re mouse: sometimes special mouse seems to give strange issues, not specifically in TDE. Just suggesting to try with a different mouse or with the touchpad if it is a notebook
[03:06]arraybolt3: o/ Ubuntu developer popping in to say hi and watch things :) I've mulled around in my head the idea of making an official Ubuntu Trinity flavor for some time, so I thought I might as well stop in.
[03:06]micheleC: Don't think it is cursor related, but you can always give it a try and see what happens if you use a different cursor theme
[03:06]micheleC: @polyester: yes, we have updated the packages. We will be announcing it officially in near future, possibly today
[03:07]micheleC: @arraybolt3: welcome :-)
[03:08]micheleC: if you create an ubuntu flavor and want to add it to TDE, you can propose a PR when ready
[03:08]arraybolt3: ah I meant an official variant of the Ubuntu OS that would ship TDE as the default desktop. Like Kubuntu, but Trinity rather than Plasma.
[03:09]arraybolt3: I currently am a Kubuntu and Lubuntu dev, so I probably have the needed skillset to do that, just need to find the time to take a look at the existing TDE packaging y'all have done for Ubuntu and get it into a PPA, then into the Ubuntu archives.
[03:10]micheleC: ah I see, I guess I had misunderstood :-)
[03:10]micheleC: would be great to have TDE officially ship in some ubuntu distro
[03:17]inverted_rabbit: Tubuntu
[03:19]arraybolt3: Trubuntu? :) (due to the current naming requirements it would have to be called Ubuntu Trinity, the *buntu naming convention isn't allowed for new flavors sadly)
[03:19]inverted_rabbit: This is why I hate canonical.
[03:19]inverted_rabbit: Tubuntu would've been mildly amusing.
[03:20]micheleC: Tribuntu?
[03:21]arraybolt3: well hey, I could always fight it, but it's one of those battles I don't really see a need to win. Ubuntu Trinity sounds really cool to me.
[03:21]micheleC: Agree, "Ubuntu Trinity" sounds better than Trubuntu or Tribuntu
[03:21]inverted_rabbit: Ubunity.
[03:22]micheleC: Trinity packages for Ubuntu are pretty much ready to go, as long as installing into /opt is not an issue
[03:22]arraybolt3: mmm, installing into /opt I believe is an issue, potentially a big one.
[03:22]arraybolt3: *checks Debian Policy Manual*
[03:23]arraybolt3: huh, actually looks like Debian policy doesn't forbid installing into /opt.
[03:23]arraybolt3: That being said, what are the dangers of installing to /opt? Conflicts with KDE Plasma?
[03:23]micheleC: Moving to /usr is one of the things we want to address in future, but first we are focusing on finishing cmake conversions for remaining repos
[03:23]arraybolt3: er, the dangers of installing to /usr I mean
[03:24]micheleC: if you install in /opt there is no conflict pretty much. If you install in /usr, there may be some clashes with KDE perhaps, but I have never investigated further
[03:24]inverted_rabbit: AFAIK, wasn't it done to avoid conflicting with KDE packages?
[03:24]micheleC: you would have to try and see what happens
[03:24]micheleC: initially yes, but lot of things have changes since that
[03:24]inverted_rabbit: You could make the packages conflict on their KDE counterparts.
[03:24]arraybolt3: makes sense. I would probably just make each Trinity package Conflicts: with the corresponding KDE package.
[03:24]micheleC: so perhaps there are no more conflicts. Needs to be tested
[03:24]arraybolt3: so trinity-k3b would Conflicts: k3b.
[03:25]arraybolt3: (assuming that the k3b I saw in a recent screenshot of Trinity is Trinity's fork of k3b that is)
[03:25]micheleC: Trinity has its k3b fork, yes :-)
[03:25]inverted_rabbit: Yes, Trinity has a TDE-k3b.
[03:29]arraybolt3: One potentially silly question I want to ask - are there any plans around Wayland in Trinity Desktop? I seem to remember reading somewhere that Trinity intends to stay on X11.
[03:29]micheleC: for the time being we are planning to add support to run on XWayland
[03:29]arraybolt3: ah, fantastic.
[03:29]inverted_rabbit: Never let X go and I will be happy.
[03:30]micheleC: we don't have enough people to address a full wayland migration anyway
[03:30]micheleC: (y)
[03:30]arraybolt3: +1
[03:30]arraybolt3: I actually like X more than Wayland, I just fear that X (but not XWayland) will be abandoned once Red Hat drops it, since they are the primary maintainers at least from what I've heard.
[03:30]micheleC: btw if you have any fix or code you want to contribute to TDE, feel free to reach out :-)
[03:30]arraybolt3: But XWayland will probably be kept going for long (maybe perpetually), and so that is a perfect stop gap.
[03:31]arraybolt3: Thanks! I'm a bit slammed work-wise but that sounds fun :)
[03:31]micheleC: and I foresee a X-only distros to be born the day X is officially dropped by major distros. Like devuan when debian switched to systemd
[03:31]micheleC: sure, no rush or obligation.
[03:32]inverted_rabbit: X won't die. Wayland isn't a good enough alternative for X to die.
[03:32]arraybolt3: yeah, plus I think the BSDs intend on keeping X alive.
[03:32]micheleC: (y)
[03:32]inverted_rabbit: There will be a direct replacement developed with 100% full X11 compatibility, or X11 will remain maintained, even if only by a few people.
[03:33]arraybolt3: or Wayland will finally get good, but given the amount of time it's taking to do that, I have my doubts...
[03:33]micheleC: in case you are interested, here there is a guide on how to possibly contribute
[03:33]micheleC: https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/TDE_Gitea_Workspace
[03:33]micheleC: but as said, don't feel obliged :-)
[03:33]tde-bot: Page title: TDE Gitea Workspace - Trinity Desktop Project Wiki
[03:33]inverted_rabbit: arraybolt3: It's been too long for me to have any hopes for that.
[03:34]arraybolt3: Probably most of my contributions, if I make an Ubuntu Trinity flavor, will be bugfixes. I've used Trinity on Debian Sid and *loved* it, like absolutely loved it. The sound scheme, the colors, the app styling, everything. I can't think of any feature off the top of my head I would want extra, though I'm sure you all have plenty in your head to keep working on.
[03:34]arraybolt3: That being said, I do quite a bit of bugfixing.
[03:34]inverted_rabbit: We should've never moved from the desktop trends of the 2000s.
[03:35]inverted_rabbit: It's what I love about TDE. That and it just works.
[03:36]arraybolt3: well now that I've had a fun conversation about it, I think I'm going to *have* to try to PPA Trinity Desktop for Noble and try to make a remix ISO. No clue how exactly I'm going to do that (there's not really a "base" Ubuntu out there), but surely somehow it can be done!
[03:36]inverted_rabbit: I've been meaning to contribute in some form myself. Some silly things. Recently, I thought about adding protocol support for gopher and gemini to Konqueror. How hard could that be? I guess I'll find out when I eventually get to it. :P
[03:37]arraybolt3: silly question, for someone who's already semi-proficient at Qt5, is TQt3 too much of a shock, or is it more or less the same thing?
[03:37]arraybolt3: (I've written Qt Widgets apps in Qt5, so I assume TQt3 will be similar. No Qt Quick probably, but I don't like Qt Quick all that much.)
[03:39]micheleC: bug fixes would be great and useful
[03:40]micheleC: gopher is a supported, just install tdeio-gooher
[03:40]micheleC: *tdeio-gopher
[03:40]inverted_rabbit: It is not packaged for arch?
[03:41]micheleC: if you know Qt5, TQt3 should be easier. there is no QML, so GUIs are still make old style, either in code or with tqdesigner/tdedesigner's xml files
[03:41]micheleC: no Qt Quick indeed
[03:42]arraybolt3: mmm... any chance there's a TQt Creator? (probably not but I guess I can live without that)
[03:42]arraybolt3: (I kinda got hooked on Qt Creator and have used it for most of my Qt development.)
[03:42]micheleC: @gopher for arch: not sure, but since Slavek maintains Arch builds, I would be surprised if it is not
[03:43]inverted_rabbit: micheleC: Just checked the tde-packaging repo. Be surprised.
[03:43]micheleC: TQDesigner probably is the best friend to make TQt interface quickly
[03:43]micheleC: @inverted_rabbit: ok
[03:43]inverted_rabbit: I'll make up a pkgbuild and PR it.
[03:44]micheleC: (y)
[03:44]arraybolt3: micheleC: +1
[04:30]inverted_rabbit: Very nice to see gwenview finally in the Arch TDE repo.
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[06:31]adamk: @micheleC Okay it's no big deal. Thanks for the response. Whoever manages the website should probably mention tdemultimedia somewhere on the Applications page since it's nowhere to be seen.
[06:42]micheleC: (y)
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[09:55]micheleC: @inverted_rabbit: see Slavek's comment on your PR
[13:24]akh: Don't get me started on Wayland. All this talk of making it not just the default but the only option yet it won't even run on a lot of systems (mine included). I'll just say that it needs a lot of work, much of it at the architectual level.
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[15:41]ceux: akh: what trash is wayland LOL
[15:41]akh: Struth. Want a rant? (just kidding)
[15:42]ceux: fNO
[15:43]ceux: i wanna just forget it exists
[15:43]ceux: 10 years in the making and it still doesnt work.
[15:44]akh: For some things it can never work (usability in secure environments comes to mind)
[15:44]ceux: modern concepts of security is retarded
[15:44]ceux: if you do not trust software on your machine, isolating isolating isolating every point seems ridiculous
[15:44]ceux: better to run untrusted code
[15:46]akh: Tell me about it. Xorg OTOH has had the ability to work in secure environments since circa 2010 (earlier for other X servers)
[15:47]akh: The nice thing about the X security extensions is that one can use untrusted software alongside trusted software that's running at a more restricted security level.
[15:49]akh: The irony is that Redhat had all the infrastructure in place to have X be highly secure but is is replacing it with Wayland "in the name of security" despite the latter being insecure _by design_.
[15:52]ceux: why would i run untrusted software
[15:52]ceux: follow up: if i did, why wouldnt i run something like xephyr
[15:57]akh: I'm refering to environments like one would find at a Three Letter Agency. When running Xorg one can have an Unclassified email client running alongside a Classified document viewer and the X server will e.g. not allow you to copy and paste from the Classified document to an email. Even things like screenshots get automatically redacted.
[15:58]ceux: thats so silly i don't even care
[16:01]akh: It may be silly for some (possibly most) users but it is important to some. Wayland's architecture does not allow this to be implemented; X has supported it for decades.
[16:02]ceux: I think it's silly to ask your window rendering engine to manage security that's all.
[16:02]ceux: especially if it's all running under the same user, unix permissions just frankly fall apart.
[16:03]ceux: or maybe its just... if you're that far down the rabbit hole, security X11 seems like areal last resort when there probably should be several other approaches first.
[16:03]ceux: the parent will always have access to the child, maybe children shouldnt all have access to eachothrer (makes snse) but where's the security when I can just snap a photo or write something down.
[16:04]ceux: see: garmin fit-bit watches leaking the locations of secret military bases in the Middle East.
[16:05]akh: Is it though? Linux has had ACL support for ages and it is actively being used.
[16:06]ceux: certainly a good point, that would have relevance in a file based system.
[16:07]akh: The Xorg extension builds upon the OS's ACLs to extend their coverage to GUI objects/clients.
[16:07]ceux: the concept totally is fine in something like plan9, even naitive. you could easily spin up a sub-rio (their windowing system) and have it not konw about the ROW
[16:08]ceux: but right - xorg needs to build acls, then we need to build network acls, and dbus acls and acls for everything. hence "snap" and other tools
[16:08]ceux: at the end of the day, each process basically needs itss entirely own namespace/username with limited permissions.
[16:08]akh: Sounds like Android :^)
[16:08]ceux: android, or plan9
[16:09]ceux: plan9 -> everything is a file, and you control the file system (the namespace) when you spawn a proc.
[16:09]ceux: so you can spawn a proc without access to /net/
[16:09]akh: Seriously though, ACLs for X was implemented decades ago.
[16:09]ceux: invertedly, you can trivially implement data exfiltration by having a remote /net available and mounting it
[16:10]ceux: akh: my biggest concern is generally data exfiltration right, and with any network access and a shell its just trivial to do, and very hard to stop. even implementing tunnels and so forth is absoutely native to ssh
[16:10]ceux: so yeah, you need a system either dsigned ground up for it (plan9) or do a ton of work to slap it on top ACLs, etc, like android.
[16:10]ceux: not to say I don't think it's a good idea to have an ACL system for X. I just don't think it provides, realistic security.
[16:11]akh: Linux (at least) has network ACLs
[16:11]ceux: it may prevent Zoom snooping on what other window contents I have, and I support that. But if i am running untrusted software like Zoom, throwing it in Zephyr or something
[16:11]ceux: akh: and again, thats where it all falls apart without a WAF
[16:11]ceux: because of network firewalls, everything is now done via HTTP transport.
[16:12]ceux: anyway, the state of security is, i don't believe it exists really LOL
[16:12]ceux: plus wayland sucks in general.
[16:13]ceux: (i am not poo-poo-ing people who are making a whole hearted attempt at it, but yeah i mean, I think a system resdesign is in order than the standard unix mainframe shit. it just doenst play with how the world works.
[16:13]akh: Xephyr is analagous to how Wayland implements window embedding.
[16:13]ceux: actually, running yourself as root and setting up users to run untrusted packages is probably a better idea than trusting snap or whatever to isolate.
[16:14]ceux: akh: that makes sense to me I guess.
[16:18]ceux: akh: simply put, either go ALL in on file based ACLs or don't... none of these problems seriously exist on plan9 for example.
[16:19]ceux: because there's a standard interface, writing acls is sane.
[16:24]akh: It's been ages since I used/coded for plan9. About all I recall is that it unifies local and remote resources.
[16:27]ceux: yeah via namespaces basically
[16:28]ceux: also, everything is a file, so you can use the boring acl system for anything really, for controlling access to the audio card or network or whatever
[16:30]akh: I was looking into it for running distributed jobs. Ended up not using it for that. I don't recall what the issue was that I encountered.
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[20:26]inverted_rabbit: My cranium enlarges as I have learned about amending git commits and signing off. Not very used to using git to contribute, just mostly use it for my own projects.
[20:26]inverted_rabbit: TDE makin' the most of me.
[20:32]SlavekB: inverted_rabbit, all looks good
[20:33]SlavekB: I think merge will follow early. Now I'm preparing binary packages to be published soon after merge.
[22:05]SlavekB: inverted_rabbit, merged, binary packages will be soon on mirrors.
[22:06]inverted_rabbit: Very cool.

#trinity-desktop < 2024/05/15 >