*Strangelv sings "Domo Arigato, Mr. TBottu..."
kb9vqf	Heh
kb9vqf	That's mine
kb9vqf	He's OK :)
Strangelv	"Process keeps dying?
kb9vqf	I'm still setting it up
kb9vqf	Getting the logging going and such
*kb9vqf notes the configuration file format isn't very friendly
Strangelv	Noticed that the PID keeps incrimenting
kb9vqf	Ctrl+C will do that ;-)
kb9vqf	He won't do anything here for a while
Strangelv	There's no equivalent for a talk page with FOSWiki, is there?
kb9vqf	I don't know, sorry
kb9vqf	I kind of like FOSWiki but I think I may be the only one here who does :-(
*Strangelv has also discovered that the markup isn't whath's throwing him -- it's that it saves not the markup but an html version of it, then converts the html back to markup, losing important things along the way
Strangelv	"What are its strong points?
kb9vqf	Hang on
kb9vqf	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_wiki_software
Strangelv	I've tried to use worse.  It may actualyl be the second best wiki available, from my admittedly limited and dated experience
kb9vqf	Scroll down to Features
kb9vqf	The WYSIWYG editor is one
kb9vqf	Extensibility is another
kb9vqf	I also seem to have stopped Wiki spam cold :)
kb9vqf	And you can't beat the license
Piki	not many people use FOSwiki, probably not enough incentive to make bots for it
*kb9vqf wonders where tbottu is dumping his log files
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*Strangelv : http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/Artwork/LogoBrainstorm
Strangelv	What are some of the worst?
kb9vqf	I like the one on the bottom :)
kb9vqf	By the way, TQt stands for "Trinity Qt", not "Tiny Qt" ;-)
kb9vqf	It's anything BUT tiny
kb9vqf	Qt4 should be called "Tiny Qt"
kb9vqf	Seeing as it's missing so many features
Strangelv	"It's open for confusion, and if we call it Trinity Qt it might discourage other developers from believing it would have anything to do with their needs
kb9vqf	I suppose
kb9vqf	Well, it's not released yet
kb9vqf	It can always be renamed
kb9vqf	The Qt4 variant that is
Piki	how about sqt: superior qt interface
kb9vqf	Sounds like squid :-{
Strangelv	SQt... we could use a radical for a logo. 8)
Strangelv	"Squid... a radical in a naval uniform?
kb9vqf	XD
kb9vqf	Nice and professional, that!
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Piki	and perhaps at some point program it with some FAQs about TDE and TQt
kb9vqf	It does have info abilities
Strangelv	RadKade1 had a bot in gameslink #unreal that kept a list of amusing quotes and would play one back at random.  ...it was a bit less business than this one...
kb9vqf	Heh :)
Piki	so we can just do "!tqt" and have it display a list of it's FAQs
*kb9vqf plays some ut2004 now and then
kb9vqf	Piki: yes
Piki	i don't paly games much, occasional pacman or super mario, but nothing fancy or overly-violent, i prefer mild
kb9vqf	Supertux anyone ?
*kb9vqf doesn't play often either
kb9vqf	But every now and then can be amusing
Piki	i've played supertux, amusing how they've copied over the super mario conepts so closely
*kb9vqf has never played super mario
Strangelv	'"I've only seen it.  I never ad aty console system,s just my father's Aple ][ plus
kb9vqf	tbottu: what is tqt?
tbottu	kb9vqf: Sorry, I've no idea what 'tqt' is.
kb9vqf	He's kind of dumb right now
kb9vqf	tbottu: what is tqt?
tbottu	kb9vqf: I have heard that tqt is the Trinity Qt Interface
Piki	kb9vqf: it's one of the all time classics, you're not a gaming fan until you've played super mario, sonic, zelda, and the old arcade classics ;-)
kb9vqf	Nope, not a gaming fan here
kb9vqf	Though I do like the older arcade games
kb9vqf	Bosconian, etc.
Piki	bosconian? too young to remember that one ;-)
kb9vqf	Heh
Strangelv	BLAST OFF! ALLY! ALLY! SPY SHIPS SIGHTED!
Strangelv	I must admit that even when it first came out I was a littly unnerved that I was fighting an enemy force that lacked projectile technology
Strangelv	Sinistar was noticelbly less impossible in the arcades than on MAME
kb9vqf	:)
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Strangelv	tbottu: what is the capital of assyria?
tbottu	Strangelv: Sorry, I've no idea what 'the capital of assyria' is.
Strangelv	tbottu: Does the wiki have the DebianRepositoryPlugin?
tbottu	Strangelv: Sorry, I've no idea what 'Does the wiki have the DebianRepositoryPlugin' might be.
kb9vqf	He knows nothing right now
kb9vqf	You can give tbottu information like this: tbottu: The capital of Assyria is Assur
kb9vqf	tbottu: The capital of Assyria is Assur
tbottu	kb9vqf: ok
kb9vqf	tbottu: what is the capital of assyria?
tbottu	kb9vqf: Well, The capital of Assyria is Assur
kb9vqf	;-)
Strangelv	"Actualyl, tehre's moer than one answer.  Nineveh, IIRC, was the final capital
*kb9vqf wonders if there is a master info bot somewhere
Strangelv	Mike likes my three gears graphic but is wondering how to make it recognizabel at 16x16px
kb9vqf	Good question
*Strangelv summons teh Master Mold
Strangelv	My guess is to make the three colors sufficientyl distinct
Strangelv	"The colors are placeholders.  I'm thinking in terms of grabing them from the KDE 3 branding
Strangelv	It might also make sense to change the positions of the gears
Strangelv	"Thera re more ideas that I have badly sketched itn oraneg marke,r but I've not created vector graphics for them yet
*Strangelv needs to get up and go te the kitchen sometime
Strangelv	Actually ,looking at the page, there's really only one more I realyl want to spend tim making.
Strangelv	It's for the built on a solid foundation concept
Strangelv	A wall with missing portions and whit epaint that amkes for a giant lowercase 't'
kb9vqf	Sounds good to replace my junky TQT logo ;-)
Strangelv	Aerl you the one who made teh interim TDE logo?
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	From the original KDE logo
Strangelv	What source files did you have?
kb9vqf	The svg source
kb9vqf	svgz
kb9vqf	That's it
Strangelv	"That could definitely help.  Where is it located?
kb9vqf	It's in the kdelibs module IIRC
Strangelv	"I could grab colors off of that if nothing else
kb9vqf	Sure
kb9vqf	It opens fine in Inkscape
Strangelv	Also I was wondering about the location of the powered on graphics
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	Where are they used in the Trinity UI?
Strangelv	during startup
kb9vqf	Those are usually distro-specific
kb9vqf	The Ubuntu ones I made from the Ubuntu KDE logo
Strangelv	It might be something to tinker on iven if it's only for Tubuntu
kb9vqf	Why not
kb9vqf	I don't remember offhand where those files are
kb9vqf	Probably in the kubuntu splash package
kb9vqf	for plymouth
kb9vqf	Be warned the color palette is very limited during startup
Strangelv	is the color palette part of teh image or is trial and error required?
kb9vqf	Set it to 8 bit and you should be OK
kb9vqf	It varies from system to system
kb9vqf	Intel provides a full 32-bit palette
kb9vqf	nVidia provides the lousy 8-bit one
kb9vqf	And there's a whole range in between
Strangelv	Will any 8 bit pallet work or is there a specific one?  Have an equivalent of the 256 color safe palette that went out the windowm when only 22 of them, mostly bright greens, worked with 16 bit too?
kb9vqf	The 256 color one
kb9vqf	That's the safest
*Strangelv grew up with 8 bits for 6 colors on 7 pixels. He can adjust
kb9vqf	:)
*kb9vqf grew up on a very similar system
Strangelv	Which one?
kb9vqf	An old 486 SX
kb9vqf	DOS FTW
Strangelv	Okay, that's WAAY ahead of what I grew up on
kb9vqf	Heh
kb9vqf	What's yours
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	BTW it was new at the time :)
Strangelv	When I was 11 my father spent enough money to buy a car on a top end Apple ][ plus
kb9vqf	Ouch
kb9vqf	Nice machine though
Strangelv	48 xB RAM, floating point BASIC, 16 sectored disk operating system and actual floppy driwes
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kb9vqf	Hey, it works!
kb9vqf	What bout Bug 67?
tbottu	Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=67 cri, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESO WORKSFORME, Errors while installing kde 3.5
kb9vqf	:)
*Strangelv claps
*kb9vqf will get the logs published on the Trinity website...eventually.....
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Strangelv	Bug 365?
kb9vqf	tbottu: what is TDE?
tbottu	Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=365 blo, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, GPG Key and Repositories not Accessible
tbottu	kb9vqf: Well, TDE is the Trinity Desktop Environment
kb9vqf	He's running for good now
kb9vqf	No more cycling needed AFAIK
kb9vqf	:)
*Strangelv claps
Strangelv	assyria?
<mode channel="#trinity-desktop" nick="kb9vqf" time="2011-02-04T07:32:21Z">+o tbottu </mode>
kb9vqf	Doesn't work that way
kb9vqf	From what I can tell queries have to be directed at tbottu
kb9vqf	tbottu: What is assyria?
tbottu	kb9vqf: Sorry, I've no idea what 'assyria' is.
Strangelv	"By bug question wasn't but still worked
kb9vqf	Bugs are treated differently
kb9vqf	This might not be the best info module
kb9vqf	I can see if there is another
kb9vqf	Also, /msg tbottu help is useful
kb9vqf	TDE?
kb9vqf	tbottu: TDE?
tbottu	kb9vqf: TDE is the Trinity Desktop Environment
Strangelv	tbottu, what is TDE?
tbottu	Strangelv: I have heard that TDE is the Trinity Desktop Environment
kb9vqf	tbottu: factoid?
tbottu	kb9vqf: Sorry, I've no idea what 'factoid' might be.
kb9vqf	tbottu: What is a factoid?
tbottu	kb9vqf: A factoid is some information about a topic.  A full list of factoid commands is available from /msg tbottu help infobot
Strangelv	tbottu, what's 5+3?
tbottu	Strangelv: Sorry, I've no idea what '5+3' might be.
<mode channel="#trinity-desktop" nick="tbottu" time="2011-02-04T07:39:06Z">+o kb9vqf </mode>
kb9vqf	tbottu: translate from en to de Hello
tbottu	kb9vqf: Request timed out more than 50 times
kb9vqf	Hmmm
kb9vqf	tbottu: translate using google from en to de Hello
tbottu	kb9vqf: Noooo... That's not the right syntax at all! Try something like 'translate [using (Yahoo|Babelfish|Google)] [from (pt|it|zh|es|ru|nl|ar|en|zh-CN|fr|de|ja|zt|el)] [to (pt|it|zh|es|ru|nl|ar|en|zh-CN|fr|de|ja|zt|el)] sentence'
kb9vqf	tbottu: translate using Google from en to de Hello
tbottu	kb9vqf: Language "English" is not available
kb9vqf	tbottu: translate using Yahoo from en to de Hello
tbottu	kb9vqf:  Hallo
kb9vqf	tbottu: translate using Yahoo from en to ru Hello
tbottu	kb9vqf:  !
Piki	now i feel like an idiot: kept typing in the name of a file as a part of a command, couldn't find the file, but ls showed it as there. of course, i was was using a "-" in the file name, but i should have been using _ instead lol
Strangelv	"doh
Piki	hmm, apparently ru doesn't have a word for hello lol
kb9vqf	:)
Strangelv	Is IRC limited to 7 bit ASCII?
kb9vqf	I think the Babelfish CPAN modules is a bit out of date
kb9vqf	No
kb9vqf	There are Russian conversations on here now and then
Strangelv	"I remember now.  Doh.
kb9vqf	Hence my interest in the translation feature ;-)
Piki	we get a lot of foreign languages over at ark, most common is de
Piki	strangely enough, we used to get a lot of spam in russion on our forum
kb9vqf	Huh
Strangelv	tbottu: translate using Google from en to es The dashed lines mark the boundaries of the quadtree squares, and indicate that certain half-tiles can be recombined to form three more tiles, including one in which a square is divided into 26 triangles, all having angles of at most 80 degrees.
tbottu	Strangelv: Language "English" is not available
kb9vqf	The conversations in Russian here are actually the most productive :)
Piki	and the occassional username in the greek alphabet
kb9vqf	tbottu: translate using Google from es to de The dashed lines
tbottu	kb9vqf: Language "Spanish" is not available
kb9vqf	Hmmm
kb9vqf	Seems quite broken
kb9vqf	tbottu: translate using Yahoo from en to es The dashed lines mark the boundaries of the quadtree squares, and indicate that certain half-tiles can be recombined to form three more tiles, including one in which a square is divided into 26 triangles, all having angles of at most 80 degrees.
tbottu	kb9vqf:  Las l&#65533;neas discontinuas marcan los l&#65533;mites de los cuadrados del quadtree, e indican que ciertos mitad-azulejos se pueden recombinar para formar tres m&#65533;s azulejos, incluyendo uno en el cual un cuadrado se divida en 26 tri&#65533;ngulos, todo que
tbottu	tiene &#65533;ngulos a lo m&#65533;s de 80 grados.
Strangelv	That looks more successful
kb9vqf	More or less
kb9vqf	I guess use Yahoo for now
kb9vqf	tbottu: translate using Yahoo from en to de The dashed lines mark the boundaries of the quadtree squares, and indicate that certain half-tiles can be recombined to form three more tiles, including one in which a square is divided into 26 triangles, all having angles of at most 80 degrees.
tbottu	kb9vqf:  Die ausgestrichenen Linien markieren die Grenzen der quadtree Quadrate und zeigen, dass bestimmte H&#65533;lftefliesen wiederverbunden werden k&#65533;nnen, um drei weitere Fliesen zu bilden, einschlie&#65533;lich, in der eine ein Quadrat in 26 Dreiecke
tbottu	unterteilt wird, alle an, die Winkel von h&#65533;chstens 80 Grad hat.
kb9vqf	Now that I can try to read :)
kb9vqf	Enough fun with the bot for now
kb9vqf	Back to our regularly scheduled on-topic programming :)
*kb9vqf notes you can open a chat with the bot if you like
Strangelv	tbottu: translate using Google from ru to en &#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1077;&#1074;&#1086;&#1076; &#1086;&#1096;&#1080;&#1073;&#1082;&#1072; &#1089;&#1077;&#1088;&#1074;&#1077;&#1088;&#1072;
tbottu	Strangelv: Language "Russian" is not available
Strangelv	"noted
Strangelv	What's the topic again?
kb9vqf	Why TDE of course :)
*Strangelv was pondering something more specificg
kb9vqf	Nope
kb9vqf	I don't think the bits about the trees, squares, and angles have much to do with TDE though.....
Strangelv	"well looking for.  I don't have a god on eto offer at the moment unless it's to whine about the roadmap
Strangelv	"it's what I could find that was technical first for testing purposes
kb9vqf	I kind of figured
kb9vqf	That's what the person-to-bot chats are for
kb9vqf	But I don't mind
kb9vqf	too much
kb9vqf	:)
Strangelv	What sorts of things would we need to have in place to call a nw version 3.6.00?
kb9vqf	I'd like it converted to TQt
Strangelv	fully working Qt4 support I presume
kb9vqf	At least at alpha stage
kb9vqf	The Trinity code itself should be nearly finalized
kb9vqf	All bugs added during TQt-porting should be fixed
Strangelv	finalized in what sense?
kb9vqf	The bit about the bugs
*kb9vqf was unclear, sorry
Strangelv	Always remember: there will always be open trouble tickets
kb9vqf	It should run correctly under Qt3 and compile under Qt4
kb9vqf	Of course
Strangelv	"Stomping out the show-stoppers is important
kb9vqf	I just mean bugs that were added as a result of the TQt port
kb9vqf	And show stoppers
Strangelv	"So you're thinking of modest changes?
Strangelv	a new grlaphical scheme would be good to have to go along with it
kb9vqf	A new theme?
kb9vqf	I suppose
Strangelv	haven't figuerd out where the GUI widget graphics are located
kb9vqf	kdelibs
Strangelv	"New default desktop, but I hope to have one of those before 3.5.13
kb9vqf	Much of them are painted though
kb9vqf	I change the wallpaper every release :)
kb9vqf	Styles are significantly harder
Strangelv	root@Doomsday:/home/strangelv# locate -i kdelibs
*Strangelv doesn't find much
kb9vqf	Qt3 doesn't really have GUI pixmaps
kb9vqf	Most GUI elements are painted on via C++ style code
tbottu	c++ is evil
kb9vqf	Whoa
kb9vqf	Where'd that come from??!??
Piki	LOL
*Strangelv withholds judgement on C++
Strangelv	"I'w assuming it's a default
kb9vqf	"I never knew anything about 'C++' in the first place!"
Piki	now i'm wandering about php and html ;-)
Strangelv	There was a gimmick software program that seemed nice until you found out one of its defaults prevented Winodws from starting -- it seemed to assume everyone was mostly using DOS
Strangelv	Python is enourmously more intuitive than C++.  For that matter, so is C...
*kb9vqf wonders if that was the Greeting module
kb9vqf	It might have been randomly spewing things
Strangelv	tbottu, what is C++
tbottu	Strangelv: Sorry, I've no idea what 'C++' is.
Strangelv	hmm
Strangelv	looks like the bot has made itself the topic again
kb9vqf	Darned attention grabber
kb9vqf	:-P
kb9vqf	Back to styles
kb9vqf	The only pixmaps are for icons
kb9vqf	Those are in either kdelibs or kdebase
kb9vqf	I forget which
Strangelv	root@Doomsday:/home/strangelv# locate .svgz | grep -i kde | grep -v kde4 | grep -v icons
*Strangelv gets a short list of wallpapers
kb9vqf	.png
kb9vqf	not .svgz
kb9vqf	Most pixmaps in Trinity are .png
kb9vqf	tbottu, what is C++
tbottu	kb9vqf: Maybe C++ is wonderful, surpassed only by C
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	Much better
*Strangelv gets a haystack
Strangelv	finding no pngs in kdebase
Strangelv	but thath's with locate, and it could have been moved somewhere completely different
kb9vqf	kdelibs maybe
*kb9vqf is obviously not sure
Strangelv	I can't fault you for having trouble remembering given how much trouble I have with memory
kb9vqf	And Trinity is massive ;-)
*kb9vqf needs to get some sleep
Strangelv	And it just dawned on me that /opt/kde3 is the last place I'm going to find the starup graphics
Strangelv	type at youlater?
kb9vqf	Sure
kb9vqf	tbottu, what is tbottu
tbottu	kb9vqf: Sorry, I've no idea what 'tbottu' is.
kb9vqf	tbottu, what is tbottu
tbottu	kb9vqf: Oh, I know this one! tbottu is your benevolent host and logging droid, capable of giving helpful misinformation, bug status messages, and translations via Yahoo
*Strangelv dumps the geteral knowledge base into tbottu and fills up Timothy's HD
kb9vqf	Hehe
kb9vqf	Be my guest
kb9vqf	See how fast you run into my logbot jail ;-)
kb9vqf	gn all
Strangelv	"later
Piki	tbottu: what is your uptime?
tbottu	Piki: Sorry, I've no idea what 'your uptime' is.
Piki	wow, bots are amusing when they aren't programmed ;-)
Strangelv	tbottu, what should I bug you about 365 days a year?
tbottu	Strangelv: Sorry, I've no idea what 'what should I bug you about 365 days a year' might be.
*Strangelv snaps his fingers
Strangelv	There's an Eliza style chat bot that may come standard with LambdaMOO
Strangelv	"It gets irritating in short order, except for a modified version that someone made with two of them being insecure, argumentive cats
Strangelv	That just gets owverwhelming as they flood the page arguing with each other
Strangelv	It does eventually get repetitious as well
Piki	tbottu: what is TDE?
tbottu	Piki: hmm... I think TDE is the Trinity Desktop Environment
Piki	i don't think it should think... it should just know... that thinking part might scare people ;-)
Strangelv	If it calls you Dave or Dr Forbin it's time to run away
*Strangelv tries to stand up again. It may be half an hour or more before he returns whn he succeeds
Piki	eh?
Strangelv	Dave -- 2001
Strangelv	Dr Forbin -- can't remember teh name of the movie.  Colussus was teh computer, and it decided to take over as world dictator
Piki	?
*Strangelv "I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that." -- HAL 9000
Piki	now you've completely lost me
Strangelv	You need to watch 2001: A Space Oddessey sometime
*Strangelv tries to stand up befoer he gives any more spoilers
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TokRa	tbottu:
*Strangelv waits for the response
Strangelv	hmm
TokRa	tbottu: what are you?
Strangelv	"Has it locked up?
Strangelv	bug 365
tbottu	Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=365 blo, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, GPG Key and Repositories not Accessible
Strangelv	nope
TokRa	bug 0
Strangelv	"might not be one of thoes in the database
Strangelv	"I actualy looked at the list ot be sure.  365 is in bold with red text
Strangelv	bug 1
tbottu	Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=1 nor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Landscape PDF printed as portrait (and truncated)
Strangelv	Wonder if there's any missinsg in sequence
TokRa	http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/02/ubuntu-11-04-alpha-2-released/
*TokRa is afraid of the word "Aero" :D
*Strangelv gives Amarok far fewer than four stars
Strangelv	Unity looks like it would look good on a 3" telephone screen
Strangelv	It might drive me insane on my 23" workstation screen
*Strangelv 's workstation screen is not at tthe same level as the rest of his workstation. he needs to findan upgrade one of these months.
TokRa	BTW, my netbook' http://u.inga.lv/m10.png and workstation http://u.inga.lv/m9.png
Strangelv	I can't makes as useful a shot.  When my left side task bar is deployed it covers my desktop icons
*Strangelv tries
TokRa	:)
Strangelv	http://dimensionality.com/Strangelv_Workstation_20110204.png
TokRa	Not bad at all, but fonts are a little oversized
Strangelv	I sometimes viem my screen from a bit further away than most people
Strangelv	Also, my eyes aren't as god as they used to be
TokRa	Oh, sorry
Strangelv	I remember how fun it was no read tiny small print when I was 12 years old...
TokRa	:)
Strangelv	"That's okay, they'll get plenty worse over the next few decades I'm sure
*TokRa sometimes wears glasses too
Strangelv	Mostly it's the distance I am from my screen
*Strangelv first got bifocals when he was 21. He should have gotten them 5-10 years earlier.
*TokRa sits about a half meter from screen
Strangelv	:; is presentyl about one meter from his screen.
TokRa	my vision is -1.75 to -2.00, according to the optometrist
Strangelv	: don't remember what mine are and my most recent Rx is long misplaced.  After getting bifocals I no longer needed new glasses every year
TokRa	:)
Strangelv	My current pair is moer than 10 years old -- unthinkable 20 years ago
TokRa	May I ask about the meaning of "lv" in your nickname?
Strangelv	In 1993 at a telefundraising job I got pegged as Dr Strangelove by a coworker for my less than optimistic geopolitical projections
TokRa	i see
Strangelv	When I first ended up regularly on IRC it was when there was still a limit to how many characters your name could be
Strangelv	I've also interacted with too many real PhDs to claim being a 'Dr' when I just hawvea measely bachelor's
*Strangelv has served on boards of directors and executive committeees with people with doctorates
TokRa	sounds great
Strangelv	So what do you get your hands into?
TokRa	You mean, my occupation?
Strangelv	That could work
*Strangelv heads a tiny computer game company you've never heard of unless you were on teh Quake I gaming scene in 1997, in which case you may have merely forgotten it.
*TokRa works as PHP / MySQL programmer at http://insbergs.lv for 5 years yet and holds her little own hosting provider business at http://valsts.lv
*Strangelv claps
TokRa	I study law too in order to get my bachelor degree
Strangelv	Is than Santa or Det Moroz with the parachute?
TokRa	earlier I tried to study french philology at the university, but I have realized the philology and the litterature give no passion to me
*TokRa is hitech and it addicted
TokRa	yes, indeed :)
Strangelv	I had academic and research goals, but the fell by the side in 1997 to work on The Project That Will Make Us All Rich that blew up in our faces in January 1998
TokRa	the winter version of our coprorate site
*Strangelv judges by teh alphabet that it's probably not Det Moroz
TokRa	It is &#1044;&#1077;&#1076; &#1052;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1076; (Ded Moroz)
TokRa	Ded (spelled like "dad") means old man / grandfather
Strangelv	Aokay, I got the transliteration wrong...
Strangelv	noted
TokRa	Moroz means "the cold"
*Strangelv may also be correctly remembering an incorrect transliteration
Strangelv	"Father frost
TokRa	The "Dead Moroz" spelling might be encountered too, by kidding :P
TokRa	Indeed
Strangelv	Whom I believe is supposed to have white gloves with three fingers on each hand, and underneath the red coat iz wearing pure while.  also if that's Ded Moroz, where's the ice maiden?
TokRa	mhm?
Strangelv	I'sn't Ded Moroz supposed to have a female counterpart, teh ice maiden?
TokRa	yes, she's called &#1057;&#1085;&#1077;&#1075;&#1091;&#1088;&#1086;&#1095;&#1082;&#1072; (Snegurochka)
TokRa	According to the slavic (especially russian) folklore
TokRa	She still has  fingers on each hand :)
TokRa	She still has 5 fingers on each hand :)
Strangelv	"So what are you working on for TDE?
*Strangelv in trying to wokr out what artwokr needs to be done when
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Strangelv	Hello
TokRa	Strangelv: I am not working now. Earlier, I hosted the Trinity's ISO images on my servers: http://trinity.lv
TokRa	Then, after Timothy had got help from University of Idaho, I continued to host them on my own, just to keep the mirroring idea
Strangelv	"Thank you
*Strangelv , when given a choice of servers, usually picks one in a part of the world where it's in the wee hours of the morning, wherever in the world that may be
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*TokRa offered the mirroring option about 2 years ago when I needed to get the actual distro with KDE3 and apt.pearsoncomputing.net was down due to the lightning
*TokRa has contacted kb9vqf and offered help
*TokRa acually is mentioned at http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/contributors/
TokRa	:P
*Strangelv claps
TokRa	My global policy is to give, not only to get
TokRa	When I have helped myself, I usually start considering helping the others
*Strangelv has spent a bit of time giving content to wikis; does that count?
Strangelv	"Admittedly, I was involved with most of them coming into existence
Strangelv	Then there's teh angle of, to quote from Babylone 5
Strangelv	::: "Who would believe it!  The great and powerful Londo Molari got his job becaues NO ONE ELSE WAS STUPID ENOUGH TO TAKE IT!!"
TokRa	:)
TokRa	And since I am not familiar with C and system level programming, I cannot unfortunately help the project in other ways.
Strangelv	"Need/less to say I'm enormously grateful for Timothy Pearson being in charge of this project
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*TokRa too
Strangelv	"I've neer learned teh packaging system, so doing the packages would have required me to stop working on a great many things
*Strangelv has prenty of expecie\rience in using it, even with broken packages; does that count? There were times when he was running Libranet and Demian Sid that Sid really _was_ unstable
*TokRa guesses that any king of help counts
TokRa	kind
TokRa	:)
Strangelv	"Most of what I know about C++ is out of date.  There were a lot of changes with C++98 and I don't know any of those changes
Strangelv	Mostly I'm here to crank out artwork
Strangelv	At least as soon as I can find out _what_ to crank out...
Strangelv	Trying to document these things here: http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/Artwork/Files
*Strangelv : http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/Artwork/ArtworkFiles
Strangelv	the first file is a doppelgaenger of some sort.
*Strangelv wonders if there's a awy to turn a page into a redirect in FOSWiki
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MutantTurkey	o/
TokRa	Hail
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toxic_devil	hi all
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toxic_devil	samelian: hi
MutantTurkey	hi toxic_devil
toxic_devil	MutantTurkey: hi
toxic_devil	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/332173/
MutantTurkey	cmake not configuring right?
MutantTurkey	line 29: CMake Error at CMakeLists.txt:24 (tde_add_executable) line 30: Unknown CMake command "tde_add"executable"
toxic_devil	MutantTurkey: yes
MutantTurkey	strange. I do not know
toxic_devil	MutantTurkey: It's very strange
samelian	actually is not so strange
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1101;&#1090;&#1086; &#1084;&#1086;&#1078;&#1085;&#1086; &#1082;&#1072;&#1082; &#1090;&#1086; &#1088;&#1077;&#1096;&#1080;&#1090;&#1100;?
samelian	seems that you don't run cmake on root of kdelibs directory
samelian	kdebase, sorry
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toxic_devil	shit
toxic_devil	&#1101;&#1090;&#1086; &#1086;&#1095;&#1077;&#1085;&#1100; &#1087;&#1083;&#1086;&#1093;&#1072;&#1103; &#1080;&#1076;&#1077;&#1103;
toxic_devil	(((
samelian	check my ebuild to see how to do it correctly
samelian	brb
toxic_devil	&#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1095;&#1080;&#1090; brb?
TokRa	be right back - &#1103; &#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086; &#1074;&#1077;&#1088;&#1085;&#1091;&#1089;&#1100;
toxic_devil	TokRa: ;-P
MutantTurkey	when using Cmake, I don't know how to set it to properly use QT3. $ cmake CMakeFiles.txt -D WITH_QT3:BOOL=ON doesn't seem to work
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toxic_devil	MutantTurkey: how bad that you do not speak Russian, I understand what you write, but I find it difficult to write in English
toxic_devil	MutantTurkey: hey
toxic_devil	MutantTurkey:  cmake -DWITH_QT3=ON
toxic_devil	or TRUE
MutantTurkey	toxic_devil: thank you
toxic_devil	MutantTurkey: you use jabber?
MutantTurkey	yes. crazycal00@gmail.com
MutantTurkey	google talk works with jabber right?
toxic_devil	oh
samelian	yes, gtalk using a kind of jabber protocol
MutantTurkey	thought so.
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*TokRa just tested the new Ubuntu 11.04 Alpha2 with Unity DE
TokRa	It's awful
TokRa	Designed for mentally challenged users :(
toxic_devil	&#1095;&#1077;&#1075;&#1086;???
kb9vqf	So Trinity looks more and more important with each Ubuntu release ;-)
toxic_devil	&#1086;.&#1086;
toxic_devil	TokRa: &#1089;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1080; ubuntu)))
TokRa	kb9vqf: indeed
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I don't know if its been discussed before. maybe register trinityde.org and setup an modern looking website
MutantTurkey	our current website (while i do like simplicity) just reminds people that 3.5 is outdated
kb9vqf	I wouldn't mind help with the website :)
kb9vqf	Any takers?
MutantTurkey	I will help you
*TokRa has registered trinity.lv about a year ago
kb9vqf	What would be nice is to
MutantTurkey	we'd need a .org i think
kb9vqf	fix up the graphical style (CSS?)
kb9vqf	Something to get rid of the 1990s HTML look
kb9vqf	While retaining the content
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: have you seen the archlinux website? very simple and still fast and modern
kb9vqf	Looks noce to me
kb9vqf	nice thatis
MutantTurkey	yes I think so
MutantTurkey	they've nicely intergrated their BBS, their bug tracker, User repos  (all different backends and engines) into one website
kb9vqf	If I give you access to the source HTML could you convert the website to a nicer layout?
kb9vqf	There is a beta site floating around that you can use as a test bed
kb9vqf	Domain names are $20/yr
kb9vqf	I wouldn't mind registering trinityde.org
kb9vqf	But we need a nicer looking website first :)
*kb9vqf does not "do" CSS, etc.
kb9vqf	So I would need some help there
MutantTurkey	i don't go css either
MutantTurkey	i do simple. i do fast. i do modern
kb9vqf	OK
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: domains are 10 a year
kb9vqf	Where?
MutantTurkey	networksolutions.net
kb9vqf	Thanks :)
*kb9vqf was getting ripped off
MutantTurkey	at least i recall. havent dont it in a while
kb9vqf	Well, it looks like $10 may be an introductory price
kb9vqf	Personally I haven't found long-term less than $20 or so
MutantTurkey	oh okay
kb9vqf	It's a nit, $10 isn't very much :)
kb9vqf	Fixing the website is more important
MutantTurkey	agreed.
MutantTurkey	but $10 and a new website would be great
kb9vqf	I don't like allowing FTP access....I wonder if rsync would work?
kb9vqf	For you to get access to the beta hosting directory that is
MutantTurkey	Dont give me ftp access
kb9vqf	Don't worry, I won't :)
*kb9vqf hates FTP
MutantTurkey	just tar up the website and send it over
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kb9vqf	OK, hang on
MutantTurkey	since i've only been around here for a few days i wouldn't trust myself either :p
kb9vqf	Obviously I can't send the Wiki and such, but I'll send over the main static page
kb9vqf	pages, rather
MutantTurkey	also, we need to either 1) get rid of the wiki or 2) make it useful.
MutantTurkey	alot of the stuff there could be on the regular site
kb9vqf	It's useful
MutantTurkey	alright, well expanding it is definitely a good idea (in the future)
kb9vqf	It's faster for me to work on the Wiki for most of the stuff there
kb9vqf	Yes :)
MutantTurkey	definitely
kb9vqf	The main pages should be for slowly changing content
kb9vqf	Like they are now
MutantTurkey	well actally they don't need to be.
MutantTurkey	if you are having news updates and such
*kb9vqf doesn't have time for news updates :)
MutantTurkey	:|
kb9vqf	Of course if someone wants to do that for the project I don't mind
MutantTurkey	News updates for releases and versions of programs, nothing else
kb9vqf	Oh, OK
kb9vqf	That's fine
MutantTurkey	yeah
MutantTurkey	just so people know that we are active
kb9vqf	A daily blog would be of of the question ;-)
MutantTurkey	agreed.
kb9vqf	Also, the documentation pages are auto-generated, so they can't easily be changed
kb9vqf	Actually a lot of the pages are auto-generated
MutantTurkey	which ones?
kb9vqf	docs, patches, mailing lists
MutantTurkey	that is all fine
MutantTurkey	they are all frames right?
kb9vqf	The Wiki and bugtracker are standalone ATM
kb9vqf	Yes
MutantTurkey	okay thats easy then
kb9vqf	RFEs are database driven
MutantTurkey	do you fancy how this looks?
kb9vqf	I'd like it clean and light :)
kb9vqf	Beyond that you can try whatever you want
MutantTurkey	http://cat-v.org/
MutantTurkey	clean light?
MutantTurkey	also suckless.org
*kb9vqf doesn't like orange
kb9vqf	:)
MutantTurkey	that is the simple werc web framework.
MutantTurkey	the colors are all easy to change.
kb9vqf	Hmm'
kb9vqf	Maybe a bit hard to navigate?
MutantTurkey	I am just trying to think of ideas
kb9vqf	I like the Arch homepage better
kb9vqf	Just with different colors maybe
MutantTurkey	http://suckless.org is really easy to navigate
MutantTurkey	archlinux is a good website. i will ask if they mind
kb9vqf	Well, the only thing I would ask is if the links could be on the side of the pag
kb9vqf	page
kb9vqf	I have widescreen monitors and that way the links aren't taking up precious vertical spcae
kb9vqf	space
MutantTurkey	well we differ there
*kb9vqf is not sure how many others have widescreen
MutantTurkey	there was some discussion of why horizontal are better
MutantTurkey	that is why suckless.org changed theirs. let me find the ML
kb9vqf	For example though I'm currently browsing the API, I have the main navigation tabs on the left and the Doxygen tabs on the top
kb9vqf	Nice and easy, and I can view most of the class functions at once
MutantTurkey	if i can recall. horizontal navigation is better because it takes up less total space
kb9vqf	Hmmm
MutantTurkey	not to mention it scales easily for different size monitors
kb9vqf	I don't suppose it is easily switched either
MutantTurkey	not sure.
kb9vqf	Between vertical and horizontal
kb9vqf	Well, can you come up with a proof of concept to run by me and then the mailing list?
kb9vqf	That might be best
kb9vqf	Impress me :)
MutantTurkey	I'll be honest, I haven't done anything in a very long time with web development
MutantTurkey	still have a few tricks up my sleeve :P
kb9vqf	What if we had the primary navigation on the top
kb9vqf	And the secondary navigation on the side?
kb9vqf	Most users won't need secondary navigation
MutantTurkey	i think we need to just look at different websites we like. thats how i always do it
kb9vqf	Arch is really quite nice
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	I don't like the gray though
MutantTurkey	again, alot of people use their layout
MutantTurkey	http://www.xyne.archlinux.ca/
kb9vqf	I'd take the recent updates and change it to the list of sources/distros currently available
MutantTurkey	yes
kb9vqf	Also, the gray could be white
kb9vqf	And the Trinity logo on the top left corner where the arch logo is
MutantTurkey	well the thing is, this whole website is php driven i assume
kb9vqf	Light blue mouse over for the top navigation
kb9vqf	Trinity blue otherwise
MutantTurkey	they are all feeds.
kb9vqf	Hmm
kb9vqf	I see
MutantTurkey	Recent updates is an rss feed. News is an rss feed. Then there are minor links on the bottom right and major ones on the top
kb9vqf	I have PHP and MySQL
MutantTurkey	I know nothing of PHP to be honest.
kb9vqf	I wouldn't be opposed to RSS ATM
kb9vqf	Well, maybe I'll look into it
MutantTurkey	you can checkout their website on the svn
kb9vqf	Is the Arch site open source?
MutantTurkey	lemmie link you
kb9vqf	One step ahead of me I see :)
kb9vqf	We also need some nice screenshots of TDE
MutantTurkey	yes
kb9vqf	On various platforms
MutantTurkey	because i have no fucking idea what it looks like
MutantTurkey	or how the interface is
MutantTurkey	I am pretty much doing this all blindly until i get the packages running
kb9vqf	http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net/cdimages/
MutantTurkey	thanks :)
kb9vqf	Those are with Ubuntu
*kb9vqf likes the Enterprise version
MutantTurkey	also i'd suggest some like, suggested requirements for a PC. so people will know how it runs on theirs before installing
samelian	MutantTurkey: if you need help for php, I know it pretty well
MutantTurkey	samelian: wonderful
toxic_devil	Yahooo!!! We paid to three)))
MutantTurkey	http://projects.archlinux.org/archweb.git/
samelian	also, some jquery and css
kb9vqf	OK, where should I send the html tarball?
MutantTurkey	setup a new subdomain if its no trouble
kb9vqf	OK
MutantTurkey	like trinity-testing.pearsoncomputing.net
*kb9vqf doesn't like it publically available
MutantTurkey	oh.
MutantTurkey	nevermind
kb9vqf	I have trinity-beta already
MutantTurkey	okay great
kb9vqf	It's OK, I can make it available for a few minutes ;-)
kb9vqf	While you download it
MutantTurkey	okay just send me a link
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: enterprise vs desktop?
kb9vqf	Hang on, still trying to exclude the dynamic content
kb9vqf	Desktop version is the old Ubuntu kiddie interface
MutantTurkey	dude, heres the thing. with your screen shots. GET damn thumbnails
kb9vqf	Hehe
MutantTurkey	so it loads faster
kb9vqf	I know
kb9vqf	The Website has been suffering badly
MutantTurkey	due to what?
kb9vqf	Lack of time mostly
kb9vqf	What you see there was thrown up as fast as posssible
MutantTurkey	yeah
MutantTurkey	you gotta remember, the first impression about trinity is the website
kb9vqf	Yup
kb9vqf	That's why I welcome your guys' help :)
MutantTurkey	indeed
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kb9vqf	MutantTurkey, samelian: http://trinity-beta.pearsoncomputing.net/123.tar.gz
kb9vqf	That should be all the non-dynamic content
samelian	get it
MutantTurkey	got it great.
MutantTurkey	holy crap this is alot.
kb9vqf	?
MutantTurkey	why is it going so slow
MutantTurkey	:[
kb9vqf	The website is under peak traffic right now
MutantTurkey	is that me downloading the iso?
kb9vqf	You and others maybe
MutantTurkey	sorry :/
kb9vqf	But it should be going to the mirrors :-/
kb9vqf	Dunno
MutantTurkey	here is the trick, BitTorrent.
kb9vqf	Hehe
MutantTurkey	we make a torrent with the Iso's instead
kb9vqf	What's your rate on the ISO?
MutantTurkey	many distros do that. that way it doesn't bog the servers down
MutantTurkey	2.4N
MutantTurkey	2.4Mbs
kb9vqf	That's the mirror
kb9vqf	Not the main website
MutantTurkey	oh alright
MutantTurkey	well that is good
kb9vqf	This is just traffic to the Wiki, etc.
kb9vqf	We get a LOT of traffix
MutantTurkey	that much traffic?
kb9vqf	Seems like it
kb9vqf	Enough to swamp my uplink with basic pages (i.e. no files)
MutantTurkey	do you have a graph of it? or logs of visitors? i know apache may generate it
kb9vqf	Nope, not ATM
kb9vqf	I've looked in the logs manually before
kb9vqf	Lots of visitors
MutantTurkey	there is a simple apache way to do it. I have a poor memory
kb9vqf	Yeah, I know
kb9vqf	No time though right now :)
MutantTurkey	you very busy?
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	TQt is eating much more time than I would like
kb9vqf	But I hope that will stop soon
MutantTurkey	ah, anything specific you are running into?
kb9vqf	Qt4 %^&amp;@^
kb9vqf	Mostly :)
kb9vqf	Things like Qt4 eating events
MutantTurkey	ah.
kb9vqf	That took all day to trace
kb9vqf	Turns out it does so on purpose
kb9vqf	:-P
*kb9vqf really hates some of the Qt4 "design" decisions
MutantTurkey	ah
MutantTurkey	yeah. i dislike qt4 alot
kb9vqf	On the plus side, through TQt, kdesktop and kicker run quite well
kb9vqf	Almost pixel perfect :)
MutantTurkey	nice!
kb9vqf	kwin too
kb9vqf	Working on kate/kmultitabbarwidget now
kb9vqf	There's a screenshot of the desktop floating around, Xu_R has the link
kb9vqf	So, did you get the tarball yet?
MutantTurkey	yes
kb9vqf	OK
kb9vqf	That will be missing one file I forgot about
MutantTurkey	I am confused. what file do you first open?
kb9vqf	main.html
kb9vqf	Err, wait
kb9vqf	Let me check
MutantTurkey	because i see index_main.html but that doesn't have the sidebar fram
kb9vqf	index.php
kb9vqf	But I didn't include it accidentally
kb9vqf	Hang on
kb9vqf	http://trinity-beta.pearsoncomputing.net/index.php.txt
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: ^^ rename that to index.php
kb9vqf	Also there is a missing folder named /files
kb9vqf	And you need to place this in that folder: http://trinity-beta.pearsoncomputing.net/files/index.html
kb9vqf	http://trinity-beta.pearsoncomputing.net/links_main.php.txt
kb9vqf	Rename to links_main.php
kb9vqf	That should be it
*kb9vqf excluded all PHP files
kb9vqf	Did you get the files OK?
MutantTurkey	okay sorry
MutantTurkey	had to watch my little sister for a minute
kb9vqf	That's fine
kb9vqf	I'm the one that forgot to send three files ;-)
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Piki	hi
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Have at it and when you have something you like, send me a tarball and I'll upload it to the trinity-beta site
MutantTurkey	Hey Piki
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay, why are we using Php?
kb9vqf	Simple dynamic content
MutantTurkey	right
*kb9vqf uses PHP extensively in most of his websites
MutantTurkey	alright
MutantTurkey	and that goes in the main directory
kb9vqf	Yes, both of the php files go in the main directory
kb9vqf	index.php is the main page
MutantTurkey	guess i can't use my regular shttpd server :/
MutantTurkey	I'll have to setup lighttpd i guess
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kb9vqf	The PHP is used to be able to specify a default frame
MutantTurkey	yes I got it
kb9vqf	OK :)
MutantTurkey	just gotta setup a php-able server
kb9vqf	Sure
kb9vqf	Poke me if you have any questions or if you are missing any files :)
MutantTurkey	right
kb9vqf	Thanks!
MutantTurkey	(I'm still attempting to package at the same time haha
MutantTurkey	yep it's all good :p
MutantTurkey	I have nothing to do all day, might as well get something accompished
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MutantTurkey	this image has still not loaded in QEMU D:
Piki	qemu's slow
MutantTurkey	i know, on a slow setup also
<mode channel="#trinity-desktop" nick="kb9vqf" time="2011-02-04T18:41:59Z">+o tbottu </mode>
Piki	virtualbox seems to work well, pretty close to the speed of my real hardware, haven't tried vmware or anything else
MutantTurkey	i haven't tried vbox
Piki	MutantTurkey: it works great, unfortunately the open source edition doesn't to USB, but the non-OSE is free for personal use. if it's not in your distro's repos, though, you'll need to have the kernel source present for vbox to compile the kernel module
MutantTurkey	D:
MutantTurkey	f that.
MutantTurkey	qemu works for now
Piki	you don't need to compile the kernel, just as long as you install the kernel source package from your distro
Piki	or the kernel headers should work as well
MutantTurkey	i have a custom kernel with static modules D: so
MutantTurkey	i'd have to recompile
Piki	you don't ave the headers or the source?
MutantTurkey	I do
MutantTurkey	I just dont have time to recompile
Piki	you don't have to, as long as you kept them
MutantTurkey	oh really?
Piki	the vbox installer just needs them to compile the module
MutantTurkey	ah excellent
Piki	it needs them so it can compile the module for your particular setup
Piki	i've never successfully compiled a kernel
MutantTurkey	why not?
Piki	but i've installed vbox
Piki	MutantTurkey: something always seems to go wrong somewhere. even if it compiles, it won't boot, even if i run mkinitrd to get my hard disk drivers
MutantTurkey	ah :p
Piki	i do have it on my todo list for whenever i have the time to actually look into it
MutantTurkey	okay now i get the good old 403 forbidden crap.
MutantTurkey	&gt;:| dumb php backend fcgi being dumb damnit.
TokRa	403 - check the file permissions
MutantTurkey	nevermind fixed it up.
MutantTurkey	It's actually an issue with my lighttpd config
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: i just got rid of the pointless php code since i couldn't get it working, if we need something we can always add it later
kb9vqf	I suppose
kb9vqf	Make it static and I'll throw the PHP back in
kb9vqf	just keep the php file extension if you can :)
MutantTurkey	:o
MutantTurkey	sawwy i renamed it all
kb9vqf	Oh OK
MutantTurkey	lemmie just give this a go, all we really need it a simple workup nothing real.
kb9vqf	Well I'll rename it back with sed when I get it ;-)
kb9vqf	Sure
*kb9vqf understands
MutantTurkey	what about how xfce website looks? http://www.xfce.org/
*kb9vqf likes the Arch one better
MutantTurkey	I think then we should just scratch the current website instead of trying to freshen it up.
MutantTurkey	All the text we will be able to basically copy and paste, maybe reorginise or rewrite some stuff.
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kb9vqf	Sure
kb9vqf	For now just copy/paste it
kb9vqf	The text that is
MutantTurkey	Alright. some stuff i think is a obvious change. such as "Welcome to Pearson Computing's fork of KDE3.5, codename Trinity!" to "Trinity Desktop Environment"
kb9vqf	Well yes ;-)
kb9vqf	We need to put the KDE3.5 fork info somewhere
kb9vqf	Maybe under "History"?
MutantTurkey	yes.
MutantTurkey	or even in the first paragraph
kb9vqf	Sure
MutantTurkey	but we need to be clear we are NOT KDE. so seperating them is a good idea.
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	Hence the fork mention up front
MutantTurkey	Trinity Desktop Environment: Trinity DE keeps the KDE3.5 computing style alive! It has polished off the rough edges that were present as of KDE 3.5.10. Along the way, new useful features will be added to keep the environment up-to-date.
MutantTurkey	that would be better
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	Although
kb9vqf	As the environment matures, new useful features will be added to keep the environment up-to-date.
kb9vqf	might be better
MutantTurkey	yes
kb9vqf	From a grammatical perspective
kb9vqf	As the environment matures, new useful features will be added to keep it up-to-date.
kb9vqf	:)
MutantTurkey	we want to say that 1) we have made huge strides already 2) we are working further to make it even better
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	Probably the release notes should be more prominent
kb9vqf	http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/Documentation/Releases_3_5_12
MutantTurkey	defintitely
MutantTurkey	even that could be the front page
MutantTurkey	NEW AND IMPROVED! Trinity 3.5.12 is out! HERE ARE THE GREAT FEATURES: blah blah blah
MutantTurkey	like kde.org and xfce.org are showing you the latest and greatest!
kb9vqf	A section of it anyway
kb9vqf	The first news article?
MutantTurkey	yeah
kb9vqf	Works for me
MutantTurkey	or something along the lines
kb9vqf	How will the news be managed?
kb9vqf	Database?
kb9vqf	RSS?
MutantTurkey	hmmm
kb9vqf	Flat text?
MutantTurkey	rss
MutantTurkey	but not yet
kb9vqf	OK
MutantTurkey	I prefer flat file everything tbh
kb9vqf	Me too
MutantTurkey	I am am real minimalist
kb9vqf	Well, up to a point
kb9vqf	Me that is
kb9vqf	Over time I may want to throw fast changing stuff into a database
kb9vqf	But I can handle that here
MutantTurkey	well things that should be in a DB or RSS are like package releases
MutantTurkey	which are often
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	Perfect example
MutantTurkey	well archlinux even has the setup like that already
kb9vqf	Makes it easy then :)
MutantTurkey	nice, i got tqtinterface-svn packaged
MutantTurkey	http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=46091
samelian	actually is not very good ideea
samelian	to make pure static html files
samelian	you must have something like header.php, footer.php
samelian	then just include it in index.php, about.php, etc
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: samelian is correct ^^^
kb9vqf	;-)
kb9vqf	I would get PHP running if I were you
kb9vqf	I can help with that if you need
MutantTurkey	okay sorry I got distracted packaging
kb9vqf	That's fine
MutantTurkey	2 packages down now.
kb9vqf	Great! :-)
kb9vqf	Maybe 3.5.13 will have Ark support
MutantTurkey	Ark?
samelian	pardus, right?
kb9vqf	Arch, sorry ;-
MutantTurkey	why wouldn't it? I mean at this rate it could
MutantTurkey	will 3.5.13 be using Cmake? i mean svn based packages are quite different than tarball ones but it shouldn't be to hard to convert them all.
kb9vqf	Right :)
kb9vqf	If samelian finishes it then yes
*kb9vqf prods samelian ;-)
samelian	depends what meaning Trinity for you :)
samelian	at this moment, kdelibs and kdebase are usable
MutantTurkey	what else is needed?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: so finally trying to get php working, I've extracted your dir in my /var/www/ but the permissions are messed up. who should own them?
kb9vqf	www-data
kb9vqf	Well, under Ubuntu anyway
kb9vqf	What distro did you set up for Apache?
MutantTurkey	apache? I use lighttpd
kb9vqf	Oh, OK
MutantTurkey	andi only run archlinux :p
kb9vqf	I may not be much help then
kb9vqf	Usually nobody or www-data owns the web documents
MutantTurkey	have debian on server box that is currently unusuable
kb9vqf	Just don't make it root and you should be OK ;-)
MutantTurkey	i get the 403 forbidden error on any file i try and access
kb9vqf	Are the php files executable?
kb9vqf	They need to be +x
TokRa	there is no need to
MutantTurkey	ah
kb9vqf	?
MutantTurkey	yeah you've chmod +x everything actually
kb9vqf	Hmmm
MutantTurkey	http://96.245.17.6/
MutantTurkey	hopefully that works.
TokRa	chmod -R a+rx /var/www
MutantTurkey	TokRa: thanka!
kb9vqf	Looks like the PHP interpreter is not running
MutantTurkey	thanks!
TokRa	php files are offered to downoad, they are not being handled
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: yeah hold up i have to do that now.
MutantTurkey	I first had to sort out the permissions error
MutantTurkey	now i can setup fcgi
TokRa	the web server is not set up to handle php file properly
kb9vqf	OK
MutantTurkey	TokRa: yes. I am going to do that now
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: one reason i love arch, they have wiki article for everything https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Fastcgi_and_lighttpd
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Piki	kb9vqf: does tbottu use tcl scripts for explaining stuff?
kb9vqf	Not sure
kb9vqf	I know it supports the infobot protocol
kb9vqf	But I think it has an internal implementation of some sort
Piki	if it does, those might be useful for the ark bot
kb9vqf	Piki: Eggdrop might work for you
Piki	kb9vqf: it's already working, it just doesn't do much without external scripts
MutantTurkey	excellent!
MutantTurkey	http://192.168.1.4/index.php
TokRa	nice :)
kb9vqf	Looks familiar
kb9vqf	:)
MutantTurkey	sorry. that was local
MutantTurkey	http://96.245.17.6/ should work now.
Xu_R_	nice MutantTurkey :)
TokRa	Please, add more default filenames to DocumentRoot
MutantTurkey	good!
Piki	MutantTurkey: lol, i was wandering about that, 192.168.*.* is generally reserved  for local networks
*Xu_R_ is eating homemade ramen :D
MutantTurkey	yes. a bit tired aha
MutantTurkey	Xu_R_: delicious! i love ramen.
Xu_R_	whoo! :D
Piki	ramen, the cheap yet tasty food ;-)
Xu_R_	Piki: mine is NOT cheap. I made it myself.
MutantTurkey	Piki: part of my main diet
MutantTurkey	that, canned chili and toast and such
Xu_R_	kb9vqf: what's with the tbottu?
Xu_R_	bot?
kb9vqf	Yup
Xu_R_	what is it running?
kb9vqf	tbottu, what is tbottu
tbottu	kb9vqf: I have heard that tbottu is your benevolent host and logging droid, capable of giving helpful misinformation, bug status messages, and translations via Yahoo
kb9vqf	Xu_R: mozbot
Xu_R_	LOL
Xu_R_	o.
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: another idea, is to keep the webpage in an svn repo so you can commit changes.
Xu_R_	I'm using supybot
MutantTurkey	supybot is great
Xu_R_	I can't get the meetbot to save files, so it's a pain in the ass when I can't #endmeeting
Piki	ramen, pizza, spaghetti, and mac'n'cheese,  wish i had some of my grandmother's recipes though, she wasn't a gourmet chef, but she definitely was much better!
Xu_R_	MutantTurkey: ya :D
Piki	wow, i need practice my typing speed lol
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Xu_R_	hehe, there's my bot there :D
MutantTurkey	Piki: meh. i gave up on that shit a long time ago
Xu_R_	of course, I have no idea if it works
MutantTurkey	I never had good typing skills and i don't even type correctly :o
Xu_R_	!ping MutantTurkey
[lindaemon]	pong
Xu_R_	yup, it works. :P
MutantTurkey	:D
Xu_R_	yes, MutantTurkey, I shall play ping pong on your head XD
MutantTurkey	like my right hand always rests over by the l key and i use it a ton for backspace and such
Piki	MutantTurkey: well as a computer geek, i'll be expected to type fast when i get a job ;-)
MutantTurkey	i use my left hand to write evertything as far as the yhu keys
MutantTurkey	i could try and relearn how to type but meh
Piki	i do have a job, but hoping to get a better one soon
Xu_R_	!part #trinity-desktop EWWWW, tbottu is here
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kb9vqf	tbottu, what is lindaemon
tbottu	kb9vqf: well, duh. lindaemon is a nasty competitor bot, rarely heard since I banished it from the solar system
Xu_R_	LOL
Piki	;-)
Xu_R_	I see you defined my bot :P
MutantTurkey	http://96.245.17.6/ some simple changes so far
Xu_R_	tbottu, what is kb9vqf
tbottu	Xu_R_: Sorry, I've no idea what 'kb9vqf' is.
Xu_R_	kb9vqf: ^ nice to know you're alien XD
kb9vqf	And I like to keep it that way for now :)
Xu_R_	lol
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: yeah you should get a easier to remember nick :p
Xu_R_	kb9vqf: samelian: I'm moving stuff off of build.opensuse.org to build.lincomlinux.org, because I'm having major trouble with their current server state. So if you want to see Trinity RPM stuff there, you'll have to register at build.lincomlinux.org (which is disabled atm, I'm fixing it)
kb9vqf	Ah, well, I dunno
samelian	Xu_R_: very well
kb9vqf	Heh
kb9vqf	Do I sense another QuickBuild?
kb9vqf	;-)
Xu_R_	kb9vqf: It runs the openSUSE Build Service. Seriously, it can build debs too and create repositories for them as well :P
Xu_R_	kb9vqf: and maybe. :P
kb9vqf	I know, but it's a local instance because the main instance drove you nuts once too often
kb9vqf	That's how it's the same ;-)
Xu_R_	kb9vqf: ... OH LOL yes yes I see :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: one of your problems is that the page is just really cluttured.
kb9vqf	Yup
MutantTurkey	I am trying to cutdown on the amount of text
kb9vqf	Lots of info
kb9vqf	Should be moved to other pages IMO
MutantTurkey	which should go on sub pages
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	http://96.245.17.6/
MutantTurkey	cleaning it up a bit
Xu_R_	MutantTurkey: Maybe switch to a CMS like Drupal? :D
MutantTurkey	Xu_R_: well we are talking about that
MutantTurkey	so any ideas are welcome
MutantTurkey	right now i am just trying to clean things up in the mean time.
Piki	yes, drupal works great, a bit of getting used to, but easy and makes a lot of sense once you do
MutantTurkey	Piki: how fast/slow/bloated/easy to setup is it?
Xu_R_	MutantTurkey: psh, you always know i'm here to help. or annoy kb9vqf/samelian xD
MutantTurkey	xD
Xu_R_	I was the one who recommended Piki use Drupal
Xu_R_	I use it myself - very customizable
Piki	MutantTurkey: fast, not bloated, lots of modules and themes on their site, and the administration page organizes and explains all the setup/admin stuff
MutantTurkey	we'd want something pretty minimal I'd assume
Piki	MutantTurkey: check Xu_R_'s lincomlinux site and the arklinux.org site i'm webmastering
Xu_R_	MutantTurkey: then keep to the minimal with drupal :)
MutantTurkey	one thing great about the current website is that it works with, mobile phones, old computers, tiny screens, cli browsers. etc.
Xu_R_	MutantTurkey: there's a module for that xD
MutantTurkey	Ark linux still exists?
Xu_R_	well, i'm not here to advertise with drupal for now
Piki	MutantTurkey: yes, it's been in existance
Xu_R_	I'm here to grapple with TQtinterface
MutantTurkey	Piki: are they tryng to relaunch/
Piki	we've been really struggling with kde4
Piki	MutantTurkey: no, they are trying to release
Piki	they've been launched
MutantTurkey	they still havent released?
Xu_R_	samelina: since I'm still migrating, we can still work on build.o.o for the time being
Xu_R_	LOL oops, samelina. s/samelina/samelian
samelian	hehe
Piki	yes, our head dev wanted to replace HAL, but couldn't force KDE4 to use it, and he's working on a new init system, quite fast and stable, still needs a couple things though, like support for a boot splash
MutantTurkey	Piki: why not get them to use trinity?
Xu_R_	https://build.opensuse.org/package/show?package=tqtinterface&amp;project=home%3Abravoall1552%3Atrinity - the x86_64 builds of SUSE 11.3 and Factory are failing strangely.
samelian	using drupal for such simple website is a big everhead
MutantTurkey	that would sure help us out a hella lot
samelian	overhead
MutantTurkey	samelian: yeah?
Piki	MutantTurkey: we are, we'll be releasing both KDE4 and TDE
MutantTurkey	nice.
MutantTurkey	excellent
Piki	MutantTurkey: and that's not the only problem, we are switching to RPM5, and need to find a decent Qt frontend to zypper, because zypper was the easiest to port to RPM5
MutantTurkey	PackageKit?
Piki	MutantTurkey: any unnecessary dependencies? i seem to remember something about devkit or something that our head dev didn't want to include
MutantTurkey	not sure
MutantTurkey	check it out
MutantTurkey	haven't used it myself
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: what about just using MediaWiki and run a wiki for a website? quite a few projects do that
kb9vqf	I always associate those with poorly designed/lazy projects
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	Just throwing it out there
kb9vqf	Seems I can never find what I want if I see a Wiki first thing
kb9vqf	Just my experience
MutantTurkey	agreed.
samelian	my problem with actual wiki is that i cannot find anything :)
Xu_R_	lol samelian
MutantTurkey	unless it is Archlinux wiki, which is super amazing xD
Piki	kb9vqf: because people don't know how to organize the site, though i still like mediawiki as the wiki
kb9vqf	Yeah, I've heard that quite a bit now
kb9vqf	Can't do anything about it unless there is an automated conversion somewhere, OR someone wants to waste lots of time moving pages over
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: i have alot of time
kb9vqf	Website first ;-)
kb9vqf	Then Wiki
samelian	MutantTurkey: haha
MutantTurkey	first of all, we need to deceide about the website!
samelian	so, we must to find something to do for you :)
Piki	hmm, packagekit lists polkit as a dep, which lists no contributors or commiters, and low activity
Piki	on their GSoC page
MutantTurkey	what? polkit is fine
Xu_R_	Piki: psh. polkit is fine
samelian	MutantTurkey: if you want, I can mentoring you how to port trinity to cmake
Xu_R_	and devicekit is also depreciated
MutantTurkey	Xu_R_: what are we using no?
Xu_R_	into udev-extras, udisks, and upower, now part of the base linux system
MutantTurkey	i have honestly lost track since the whole hal changeover
MutantTurkey	Xu_R_: right.
Xu_R_	MutantTurkey: we're still stuck with hal
MutantTurkey	you are?
MutantTurkey	i don't even have it installed.
Xu_R_	but we're migrating straight to udev-extras, udisks, adn upower
Xu_R_	MutantTurkey: Really? that's strange.
MutantTurkey	who is we? Archlinux has already migrated
Xu_R_	I meant Trinity.
kb9vqf	You have KDE3 on udev??
Piki	polkit seems to be a hardware abstractor or something, which we plan to replace anyway
MutantTurkey	oh sorry
Xu_R_	Trinity still uses HAL, MutantTurkey...
MutantTurkey	i was so confused.
MutantTurkey	thought i was in my ubuntu channel xD
Xu_R_	Piki: no. polkit isn't such a thing if you don't want it to be one.
*Xu_R_ facepalms MutantTurkey
Piki	Xu_R_: that's what it seems to be describing on the page
Piki	that and networking
Piki	which we already have
Xu_R_	Piki: Only if you make it use it!
Xu_R_	MutantTurkey: I just figured out all that hal depreciation stuff like a week ago, don't worry :P
Piki	Xu_R_: then what's the point of requiring polkit in packagekit?
Xu_R_	To install packages.
Piki	but that's zypper/rpm
Xu_R_	Polkit is like a fine access-control su and sudo
Piki	we can just use ark's PAM modules
Piki	which allows the default user to install software anyway
Piki	anf if the user doesn't want that, kdesu and kdesudo
MutantTurkey	Xu_R_: hahah
samelian	Piki: this is not a potential security hole?
Piki	samelian: no, not like the user can run a root konsole to auto-execute a command or soemthingl like that, there's a description on the wiki
Piki	http://wiki.arklinux.org/Ark_Security_System
Piki	i've been using ark since february 2007, never had any kind of viruses, spyware, hack attempts, or other security problems
Piki	besides, i don't really like the sudo way of doing things, all i need to do is type my own normal user password, and destroy the system, which the PAM modules don't allow
Piki	and i can assign certain things on a per-user basis, so nobody sees my root password to get unlimited rights, they just get what they absolutely need
samelian	do not forget about privilege escalation exploits
Piki	i thought the root escalation thing was fixed?
Xu_R_	Piki: the way Polkit does it, however, is when the application calls polkit to auth (via dbus), it runs the application as a polkit daemon user, which tunnels the application to root via a securely locked down env, if I recall correctly (which rarely happens)
Piki	Xu_R_: if you can sanitize dbus to get bero to accept it
Xu_R_	Piki: oh, there's another one right now that is still being investingated. Nice discussion on lfs-dev about it.
Xu_R_	*investigated
Xu_R_	I can't spell for my life today
Xu_R_	no wonder my english teacher stared at me .-.
Piki	besides, we already have our PAM modules
Piki	which do the same thing, without dbus
Piki	Xu_R_: well our PAM modules can work regardless of if the exploit is fixed, and if it does get fixed, well all the better because it doesn't compromise security either way
Piki	and if the exploit is there, there's nothing our PAM modules can do about it, because it isn't the kernel or bash or...
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: http://96.245.17.6/ I've sort of orginized it with headers.
Piki	what Ark needs is a GUI tool for zypper that doesn't drag in any extra deps or luggage we don't need, and we can just use PAM
MutantTurkey	Piki: then write one yourself
MutantTurkey	I mean it is Ark linux, it should have and Ark frontend :p
MutantTurkey	what about Shaman?
MutantTurkey	oh wiat.
MutantTurkey	thats for pacman not zypper :/
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Piki	MutantTurkey: yet i doubt most distros have their own
MutantTurkey	dude package kit. i am telling you
MutantTurkey	http://PackageKit.org/pk-users.html
Piki	and i don't know how to code, our only coder is always overwhelmed by work, and has to fix our dependency mess
MutantTurkey	Moblin, fedora, foresight, kubuntu opensuse all use it
Piki	MutantTurkey: we don't want polkit
MutantTurkey	Piki: YOU ONLY HAVE ONE DEVELOPER?
Piki	and we don't like fedora, ubuntu, and we only use opensuse's zypper because it's the only option
MutantTurkey	why is that (jw)?
Piki	MutantTurkey: well, nobody wants to be seen as a nooby, so they all stay away from us
Piki	MutantTurkey: they just don't work
Piki	on any of our systems
MutantTurkey	pacman ;D
MutantTurkey	pacman?
MutantTurkey	what is the goal of Ark Linux?
Piki	MutantTurkey: all of our packages are rpm, we don't have the man power to care to switch, and we want to release
MutantTurkey	oh
MutantTurkey	how large is the total team?
Piki	MutantTurkey: be easy enough for the unexperienced, flexible for long-time users, and remain "technically sane", which means excluding polkit and ditching udev/hal asap
MutantTurkey	Piki: no reason to ditch udev.
MutantTurkey	just hal
Piki	MutantTurkey: one packager/dev, two webmasters , three site admins (including the two webmaster), and a site moderator
Piki	MutantTurkey: udev seems to operate a bit weird on most of our systems
MutantTurkey	so basically this whole project is driven by one man?
Piki	MutantTurkey: yes. we used to have more, but real life took over
MutantTurkey	basically :/
MutantTurkey	what is Ark based on top of?
samelian	MutantTurkey: do not wonder to much, trinity itself have only two developers :)
Piki	and i'm about to join in on packaging once i get my system setup for TDE
Piki	MutantTurkey: based on top of?
MutantTurkey	samelian: :) I'll be helping about soon probably, if kb9vqf
MutantTurkey	if kb9vqf lets me ;)
MutantTurkey	Piki: nevermind
kb9vqf	Of course I'll let you ;-)
samelian	MutantTurkey: you have C++ background?
MutantTurkey	samelian: :o no.
samelian	i see
MutantTurkey	I am a pure C coder. though I am sure i can learn
MutantTurkey	i have absolutely no background in anything, no formal training, no job in real life, nothing.
samelian	if you don't want to bother with Qt/C++, you can help us with cmake
MutantTurkey	I can do both.
MutantTurkey	first i would like to get you modernized with a website and packages for archlinux.
Xu_R_	I'm learning C++ right now :D (of course, knowledge = limited right now)
MutantTurkey	i also would definitely help out with cmake
Xu_R_	I think I'll stick with packaging right now, and then maybe take  a look at the code :)
MutantTurkey	i though C++ is not so different than C? I mean syntax may be different and its all object oriented but anything else?
samelian	it's enough, I think
samelian	actually the problem is learning qt, not c++ itself
kb9vqf	Website/CMake can be done while you learn Qt/C++
kb9vqf	So you are still of use to the project for sure
*kb9vqf is not about to turn down extra help ;-)
MutantTurkey	i also hear Qt is quite nice to develop on
MutantTurkey	at least much saner than GTK.
kb9vqf	Oh yes!
Piki	if anybody programming in Qt wants to write a graphical frontend to zypper that is just the interface and just passes everything to zypper, using easy-to-understand code and a simple and easy interface, feel free to jump on our mailing list/forum and live support ;-)
MutantTurkey	I have done quite a bit with GTK and such so I am familiar with learning APIS and shit
Piki	anyway, must go to work
MutantTurkey	Piki: i could do that maybe
MutantTurkey	Piki: as LONG as zypper has a library interface
MutantTurkey	writing frontend wrappers sucks ass.
samelian	however, trinity have a lot areas to learn
kb9vqf	Just be careful not to spread yourself too thin
Piki	MutantTurkey: it does have a library (libzypp), and a command line util (zypper) to use it
*kb9vqf knows from experience
samelian	for example, kcm (kcontrol) modules, kioslaves, etc
MutantTurkey	Piki: nice
MutantTurkey	we could maybe switch shaman to use zypper
MutantTurkey	Shaman is a pacman for KDE enviroment frontend
samelian	kb9vqf: seems that glib interface for upower is not so nice as I expected
Piki	MutantTurkey: we don't want it to have any weird deps on hal/udev/hotplug/etc, just make calls to zypper or use it's lib, which already handles grabbing the stuff from the repos and passing it to rpm
Piki	anyways, must go, starting to run late
MutantTurkey	Piki: of course not.
samelian	I started to check if upower interface can be easy implemented using qt3 dbus
Piki	bye
MutantTurkey	night
kb9vqf	samelian: upower/udev is practically unusable as-is
kb9vqf	Hence the need for libkpower and friends
*kb9vqf had guessed that by looking at the API a while back
samelian	for sure
kb9vqf	Linux is not helping us here
samelian	I will try to implement upower low level interface in pure qt
kb9vqf	Sure, go ahead
kb9vqf	Just don't use Qt4 specific things
kb9vqf	Please
samelian	not matter, actually
kb9vqf	Make it work in Qt3
kb9vqf	Then TQt can take over
samelian	I using d-pointer
samelian	to hide implementation details
samelian	the API will be the same for qt3/qt4
kb9vqf	OK, but if the backend is Qt4 based then I can't switch from HAL
kb9vqf	We need something working 100% under Qt3
kb9vqf	Before a full switch from HAL can be made
samelian	ATM, i implement qt3, because I want to use with actualy trinity
kb9vqf	TQt for Qt4 is too far off
kb9vqf	OK
kb9vqf	Good :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay cleaned it up  bit. what think you? http://96.245.17.6/
kb9vqf	It's a bit better
samelian	try to use an sans-serif font
kb9vqf	Organizationally that is
MutantTurkey	that was the focus
kb9vqf	It definitely needs style help :)
samelian	serif fonts are designed for printing, not for screens
MutantTurkey	samelian: i think we use default fonts?
*kb9vqf is trying to imagine it in the archlinux scheme
MutantTurkey	:p
kb9vqf	Why don't you get the archlinux-like style integrated?
kb9vqf	That way we can see what the end result will be
kb9vqf	Just a thought
MutantTurkey	hmmm? that is insane i think.
MutantTurkey	I will give it a shot
kb9vqf	Insane?
MutantTurkey	let me try.
kb9vqf	OK
samelian	if you need help for css, i have some experience with it
kb9vqf	:)
MutantTurkey	samelian: great thanks
kb9vqf	And I can help with the graphics
kb9vqf	To some extent
MutantTurkey	graphics?
kb9vqf	To replace the archlinux logo and such
MutantTurkey	right. that is easy enoguh
MutantTurkey	okay, so the archlinux website is written with python.
kb9vqf	Backend engine is ???
kb9vqf	RSS?
MutantTurkey	python.
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	python python python
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samelian	probably django
samelian	no matter very much
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MutantTurkey	sorry did i quit? dumb pidgin
kb9vqf	I was actually wondering about the content database
kb9vqf	SQL, flat file, or something else
MutantTurkey	django?
samelian	django is a framework written in python
MutantTurkey	sorry
samelian	like ruby on rails, for example
MutantTurkey	yeah
MutantTurkey	yeah this is quite confusing i cannot figure it out.
MutantTurkey	archlinux has it available on their website's git tree
kb9vqf	I'm guessing we just need to take its database and tweak it
kb9vqf	Then change the style elements some
samelian	i can do it in few hours, but i'm too lazy :)
MutantTurkey	:p
MutantTurkey	I think i am going to play pond hockey soon
MutantTurkey	all tentative though, hopefully the ice is good
samelian	i'm bored too much by web development in my real job
MutantTurkey	haha
kb9vqf	And upower is too exciting?
kb9vqf	;-)
samelian	hehe, for sure
samelian	brb, rebooting access point
*samelian has joined #trinity-desktop
*Xu_R_ is tired...
MutantTurkey	word
Xu_R_	it's only 1650 too... I hate waking up at 545 every weekday lol
samelian	wow
samelian	there is 23:50 :)
MutantTurkey	Xu_R_: EST also? nice.
Xu_R_	samelian: CET, I'm guessing? :)
Xu_R_	MutantTurkey: Yup, DC
samelian	EET, i think
MutantTurkey	Xu_R_: philly up here.
samelian	GMT+2
Xu_R_	samelian: oh yea, that's EET.
Xu_R_	MutantTurkey: oh, well, you have the prowess of living near the crazy Piki (because he says he lives up in philly, no idea how true that is xD)
samelian	what is philly?
Xu_R_	samelian: Philadelphia, PA, USA
samelian	aa, thx :)
MutantTurkey	Xu_R_: :o uh oh. well.
Xu_R_	lol MutantTurkey
MutantTurkey	Trinity Drinking party!
samelian	haha
samelian	I drink already few beers
samelian	and same time I try to understand dbus-qt3 :))
Xu_R_	LOL
MutantTurkey	hahah
MutantTurkey	relevent text: http://xkcd.com/323/
samelian	yeah :)
samelian	i think I need few more beers
samelian	wtf, my klipper crashing when I select some text in qt assistant
*field_it has joined #trinity-desktop
MutantTurkey	hmmm
samelian	kb9vqf: you notice that kde4 migrating to git?
kb9vqf	Yes
*kb9vqf doesn't want to learn another VCS
kb9vqf	I'm sick of change for the sake of change
samelian	hehe
kb9vqf	My limited experience with git is not, shall we say, positive
kb9vqf	:-P
kb9vqf	I'll probably end up cloning the SVN tree and hosting it here
kb9vqf	Not something i was looking forward to doing
samelian	yep
*kb9vqf goes back to work, grumbling and muttering
MutantTurkey	git is awesome
kb9vqf	That may be, but the change sure isn't when you're dealing with a project the size of Trinity
kb9vqf	And all the automated tools that have been slowly built around SVN
kb9vqf	e.g. first thing to break will be that nice set of patches on the Trinity website
kb9vqf	Followed by other items internally
kb9vqf	Maybe we'll move in the future, but NOT NOW
kb9vqf	:)
*samelian is proud, just getting power devices list using qt3 dbus :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: check this out
MutantTurkey	http://96.245.17.6/index_main.html
kb9vqf	Ooo, nice!
MutantTurkey	also removes the need for frames, which suck
kb9vqf	Can that gray become white though?
MutantTurkey	one thing you want to have is the ability to change everything at once, so we can use php to include source code from a different file
MutantTurkey	yessir
MutantTurkey	that is all css able
samelian	MutantTurkey: try #dedede for grey
MutantTurkey	samelian: kb9vqf said white
kb9vqf	Or very light gray
kb9vqf	Let's see which looks better
samelian	f0f0f0
kb9vqf	I hate the dark gray, that's all
samelian	me too
kb9vqf	Also, I'd like that header on all pages
*kb9vqf can use PHP I suppose
kb9vqf	Is the header in a separate php file?
samelian	actually black header looking like kde4
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	Yuck
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: like i said, will be.
MutantTurkey	WAIT WHAT?
kb9vqf	??
MutantTurkey	sorry.
MutantTurkey	to many chats open -__-
samelian	in any case, the contrast between pure black and pure white is too high
MutantTurkey	samelian: yes
MutantTurkey	i am looking for a lighter grey
samelian	grey is boring, i think
samelian	at least for header
kb9vqf	What did white look like?
MutantTurkey	okay. look we can deal with that later
MutantTurkey	it hurt my eyes
MutantTurkey	let me show you
MutantTurkey	look now http://96.245.17.6/index_main.html
kb9vqf	I still see gray...
MutantTurkey	refresh should do it.
kb9vqf	Are we talking about the same thing?
samelian	also, try body { margin: 0px; padding: 0px; }
kb9vqf	I meant the header background
MutantTurkey	yeah sorry
MutantTurkey	weird padding
kb9vqf	I was wondering what a white background with blue text would look like
samelian	nope
samelian	blue text meaning link
kb9vqf	Right
kb9vqf	For the links
kb9vqf	Not for the other elements ;-)
samelian	we must avoid blue for texts
MutantTurkey	there we go. fixed that body issue
kb9vqf	I was referring to blue text for the shortcut links on the top right
samelian	the text must be dark grey or black
MutantTurkey	I am confused by all of you talking D:
samelian	haha
kb9vqf	Dark blue for links, black for text
MutantTurkey	and the bar?
kb9vqf	Blue, as it is
kb9vqf	OR
kb9vqf	What about a background like ktip uses?
kb9vqf	With the little squares fading away?
kb9vqf	I kind of like that effect :)
MutantTurkey	that means a image.
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	One
MutantTurkey	that means slower loads.
samelian	now, you need a content div, with some padding
MutantTurkey	samelian: right. no fucking idea with that. tbh
MutantTurkey	I am trying to fix the html right now.
samelian	make this in css
MutantTurkey	its a bit messy
kb9vqf	Well, I was just thinking something other than white
MutantTurkey	samelian: this is a css file.
samelian	#content { padding: 10px; }
samelian	then put the content in
samelian	&lt;div id="content"&gt;blablabla content&lt;/div&gt;
MutantTurkey	oh okay
MutantTurkey	so basically you tag a div with an id and then it reads the css for it?
MutantTurkey	applys the settings
samelian	yes
MutantTurkey	ah. css is not so hard :)
samelian	actually is not
samelian	for classes, you can use . (dot)
samelian	.content { padding: 10px; }
MutantTurkey	right i don't know that yet
samelian	&lt;div class="content"&gt;blabla&lt;/div&gt;
samelian	the id is used ONLY for unique objects
MutantTurkey	:o
MutantTurkey	oh
MutantTurkey	so i start a divider and anything in that falls under content?
samelian	anything until corespondent &lt;/div&gt;
MutantTurkey	look now :D :D http://96.245.17.6/index_main.html
samelian	very well :)
MutantTurkey	great :D
samelian	do not forget to close opened divs
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: so this is definitely good progress. I think i need to take a break fromt  the computer.
MutantTurkey	samelian: of course. sanity is key.
kb9vqf	OK, incredibly crude mock up, but what about this color scheme:
kb9vqf	http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=208edsy&amp;s=7
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: ^^
MutantTurkey	from now on use imgur okay?
MutantTurkey	http://imgur.com
kb9vqf	Ah, much nicer
kb9vqf	OK
MutantTurkey	okay that theme is nice.
MutantTurkey	imgur is just really easy.
*kb9vqf didn't know about it
kb9vqf	Thanks :)
MutantTurkey	you can direct link files
MutantTurkey	any way i think i will go for a walk
kb9vqf	OK
kb9vqf	ttyl
samelian	kb9vqf: KDE3 have any class specialized to contain errors (type, name, etc)?
samelian	I won't to send QDBusError directly to classes which will use libkupower
kb9vqf	I don't see any
kb9vqf	Usually errors are just handled via custom (class-specific) typdefs
kb9vqf	enums that is
samelian	i want to emit a signal when an error ocur
kb9vqf	You could always create one ;-)
kb9vqf	Use an int type
kb9vqf	To contain the error
kb9vqf	QString for description
samelian	right now all apps which using dbus (like knetworkmanager) do not send usefull errors to user
samelian	maybe we need to invent a generic error class?
samelian	TError
samelian	haha, terror
samelian	sounds nice
kb9vqf	Hehe
*kb9vqf got Kate working (mostly) under Qt4... :)
samelian	nice
MutantTurkey	back
samelian	on the other hand, seems that I will be able to handle DBUS directly
kb9vqf	Great!
*kb9vqf needs to go...sorry....
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Try the new color scheme
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: do you think we should have a right justified sub menu and such like arch linux?
kb9vqf	YES
kb9vqf	For release information and files
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay, well how would we integrate that immediately
MutantTurkey	and i am going to get rid of index.php and rename index.html to index.php
kb9vqf	OK
kb9vqf	Put the 3.5.11 and 3.5.12 links in that box
kb9vqf	The ones that were on the lower left
MutantTurkey	oh okies.
kb9vqf	We might move the distribution stuff there eventually, not sure ATM
MutantTurkey	do you have an rss feed for package updates? or something
kb9vqf	Nope
kb9vqf	Not yet
*kb9vqf doesn't know much about RSS
kb9vqf	But I'm willing to learn :)
kb9vqf	Seems to be all the rage these days
MutantTurkey	:) great
MutantTurkey	okay. what we need is
MutantTurkey	a single defining sentance that defines trinity.
*kb9vqf needs to go...sorry....
kb9vqf	poke me later :)
MutantTurkey	okay great
samelian	i'm not sure how to return values from my classes
MutantTurkey	return value;
MutantTurkey	:|
samelian	bool TClient::enumerateDevices(QValueList&lt;TDevice&gt; &amp;devices);
samelian	or
samelian	QValueList&lt;TDevice&gt; TClient::enumerateDevices(bool *ok);
samelian	kb9vqf: you have any preffered way?
samelian	MutantTurkey: is not so simple :)
MutantTurkey	samelian: sorry i honestly was joking. I'm sure its confusing
samelian	i know :)
samelian	the problem is that I need to return two values at same time
samelian	and I want to choose a "standard" way
samelian	using the first method, is easy to test if the method was succesfully executed
samelian	like
samelian	if(client-&gt;enumerateDevices(devices)) qWarning("We have a problem");
samelian	"if(!", actually
samelian	the second method is more clear
samelian	bool ok;
samelian	QValueList&lt;TDevice&gt; devices = TClient::enumerateDevices(&amp;ok);
samelian	if(!ok) qWarning("We have a problem");
MutantTurkey	right, well
MutantTurkey	both ways seem pretty normal to me
samelian	yes, but i need to choose one :)
MutantTurkey	I say first one, seems more standard C to me. I don't know about C++
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: hey so i have it including the top bar now :D
samelian	C++ support referrences, not only pointers
MutantTurkey	yes i do not understand references
samelian	is something like this:
samelian	my_function(bool &amp;ok);
samelian	I will call this function in this way:
samelian	bool ok;
samelian	my_function(ok);
samelian	without using &amp;ok
MutantTurkey	oh alright
samelian	also, if i'm not wrong, C cannot return structures
samelian	only pointers
samelian	or i'm wrong?
samelian	C++ have operators overloading too
samelian	for example, you can redefine the meaning of =, -, +, etc
MutantTurkey	c can return structures?
MutantTurkey	wait
MutantTurkey	well
MutantTurkey	pointers are everything in C
samelian	yes, I know
MutantTurkey	but you could also return a structure i think.
samelian	as general rule, in C++ are avoided, if possible
samelian	to avoid potential leaks
samelian	memory leaks*
MutantTurkey	you definitely can. for example. i wrote a web browser, to dynamicallycreate structures of tabs, i had a function that returned new tabs after being allocated
MutantTurkey	memory leaks D:
MutantTurkey	the bane of my existanc
samelian	valgrind is your friend :)
MutantTurkey	yeah super useful
MutantTurkey	valgrind and gdb and such
samelian	if you check a (good writen) C++ source, you will found that pointers are almost unused
MutantTurkey	samelian: okay what else needs to happen? http://96.245.17.6/
samelian	seems ok for me
samelian	as layout
MutantTurkey	okay. great
samelian	maybe a little bigger padding for #content
samelian	try 20px
samelian	for validate html, use http://validator.w3.org/
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	yeah
MutantTurkey	i am sanitizing it right now.
samelian	use the same case for tags
samelian	i preffer lower case for tags
MutantTurkey	yeah
MutantTurkey	it was all uppercase
MutantTurkey	so i didn't change it
MutantTurkey	i could use sed to replace them, but i am lazy
MutantTurkey	it is proper to do &lt;/p&gt; right?
samelian	yes
MutantTurkey	great
MutantTurkey	and that acts as a &lt;BR&gt; also?
samelian	sort of
samelian	&lt;br&gt; and &lt;hr&gt; can be avoided
MutantTurkey	hr?
MutantTurkey	hr is a line i thought
samelian	horizontal line
samelian	yes
samelian	you can use style
samelian	for div
MutantTurkey	you can style it to add a horizontal line?
samelian	border-bottom: solid 1px #000000
MutantTurkey	NICE
MutantTurkey	thank you.
MutantTurkey	I am linking css more and more :)
samelian	hehe
MutantTurkey	liking'
samelian	actually this is the way
samelian	web 2.0 :)
MutantTurkey	gross :p
MutantTurkey	actually i like web 2.0 just not anything that is over  doing it.
samelian	also, we must avoid &lt;font&gt; tag
MutantTurkey	http://incise.org is my style
MutantTurkey	samelian: yes i know. that is obvious
samelian	for most my own pages, I use incise.org style too
Xu_R_	MutantTurkey: nice new layout, it looks good for a Trinity website :) I'd love to see that on Trinity anytime, just maybe not so much looking like Arch
Xu_R_	's website o.o
MutantTurkey	Xu_R_: yes. we are re theming it.
MutantTurkey	http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=208edsy&amp;s=7
MutantTurkey	more like that.
Xu_R_	MutantTurkey: niceeee
samelian	on right side we can put trinity screenshots
MutantTurkey	want some on the home page?
samelian	why now
samelian	not
MutantTurkey	if you could send me a nice, default picture i could add it.
MutantTurkey	I'll make a thumbnail (should be standard) and then have a screenshot section
MutantTurkey	thumbnails are low quality and low res as to make it loast faster
Xu_R_	MutantTurkey: letthe screenshot of the latest release
Xu_R_	*let's have it so the screenshot is of the latest release
MutantTurkey	the screen of te latest release?
MutantTurkey	can i get one, I don't have trinity :o
Xu_R_	http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net/cdimages/ the ad screenshots :)
samelian	MutantTurkey: for body you do not need to use id
samelian	you can declare in css in this way:
samelian	body { blabla styles; }
MutantTurkey	samelian: hmmm I thought i did that
samelian	nope
MutantTurkey	there we go
samelian	in your css i see #body
MutantTurkey	look at the html. sanitized.
MutantTurkey	wait not yet D: wtf is with all these caps
samelian	close &lt;/body&gt; and &lt;/html&gt; too
MutantTurkey	how do i not use font if i want a specific font for one word?
MutantTurkey	(for the record i didn't write this page, it was already messed up i am fixing it up.
MutantTurkey	:p
samelian	&lt;span&gt;
MutantTurkey	&lt;span&gt;?
samelian	&lt;span style="font:"&gt;
MutantTurkey	isn't that basically the same thing?
samelian	actually is not good ideea to change font face in text
MutantTurkey	I typically disagree but not in this point
MutantTurkey	in this case the colors are important
samelian	i see that here we use font for changing colose
samelian	color
MutantTurkey	yeah
samelian	you can use this style:
samelian	span.red { color: #ff0000; }
samelian	and in html
samelian	test &lt;span class="red"&gt;red text&lt;/span&gt;
MutantTurkey	okay.
MutantTurkey	so span.red span.green etc?
MutantTurkey	what about &lt;i&gt; and &lt;b&gt;?
samelian	&lt;em&gt;
samelian	and &lt;strong&gt;
MutantTurkey	wow really?
samelian	yep
MutantTurkey	i thought we got rid of strong
samelian	in any case, I do not like very much textes with too many colors
MutantTurkey	agreed
samelian	is like a rambow :)
samelian	parrot, actually :)
MutantTurkey	what about the totally rank gnarley table he has there, what should i do with it?
MutantTurkey	samelian: another q, with the bottem border, should i make an ID for each group or one for them all?
samelian	only one
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	named "section" ?
MutantTurkey	is that fine?
samelian	yes, pretty clear
MutantTurkey	okay sweet
MutantTurkey	my childhood hobby of working on html is returning rapidly
samelian	just do not use id, but class
MutantTurkey	D:
samelian	as i said, id is for unique objects
MutantTurkey	schwat?
MutantTurkey	oh
MutantTurkey	class="blah blah blah"
MutantTurkey	defined the same way?
samelian	yes
samelian	put . (dot) instead #, in css
MutantTurkey	so .content { padding: 10px; font-family: sans-serif;}
MutantTurkey	?
samelian	yes
MutantTurkey	for example
MutantTurkey	thanks
MutantTurkey	so you reckon this new website will be used?
samelian	i'm, pretty sure :)
MutantTurkey	sweet. i hope everyone is impressed
samelian	make likes grey
MutantTurkey	links?
samelian	separator lines
samelian	for sections
MutantTurkey	oh
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	yeah, how do i add padding to them?
MutantTurkey	like, the bottom border is right up on the last line of the divider
samelian	instead solid you can also use dotted and dashed
samelian	padding-top
samelian	padding-bottom
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	great
samelian	also, you can use margin-top, margin-bottom
MutantTurkey	okay also, should i create a footer also?
samelian	sure
<msg channel="#trinity-desktop" nick="samelian" time="2011-02-05T00:51:12Z">© 2011 blabla</msg>
MutantTurkey	yeah all that jaz
MutantTurkey	jazz'
samelian	put in &lt;head&gt; this:
samelian	&lt;meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"&gt;
MutantTurkey	okay
samelian	and before &lt;html&gt;
samelian	&lt;!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd"&gt;
MutantTurkey	okay did that
MutantTurkey	no wait.
MutantTurkey	its not html is php
MutantTurkey	does that matter?
samelian	nope
MutantTurkey	it does
MutantTurkey	because i just added it and removed it and it broke the header during it.
MutantTurkey	didn't seem to load the CSS
samelian	for browser is plain html
MutantTurkey	fixed it
MutantTurkey	the meta needed a /&gt; on the end
samelian	check with html validator
samelian	i think you have some errors
MutantTurkey	thanks for your no stop help
samelian	hehe
samelian	at this moment, is my current job :)
samelian	unfortunately for me
MutantTurkey	yeah this would be no fun
samelian	you have no &lt;html&gt; before &lt;head&gt;
MutantTurkey	D:
MutantTurkey	i am so forgetful
samelian	http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://96.245.17.6/&amp;charset=(detect+automatically)&amp;doctype=Inline&amp;group=0
MutantTurkey	the validator is telling me i can't have a /&gt; at the end of my first line, but without it my css won't load D:
MutantTurkey	I'm already on it :P
samelian	remove it
samelian	then will see what happens
MutantTurkey	no or else my css breaks?
samelian	is break for a reason
samelian	remove / and will see what is wrong
MutantTurkey	the only thing wrong is apparently tables are no longer supposed to use bordercolor or padding
MutantTurkey	how do i put that into a css property?
MutantTurkey	make an id for a table?
samelian	sure
samelian	try to remove media= from css link
samelian	i'm not sure what is wrong with it
MutantTurkey	?
samelian	wait a moment
MutantTurkey	okay
samelian	try to remove  media="screen, projection"
MutantTurkey	i did
samelian	hmm, strange
MutantTurkey	yeah, would it be related to my php include maybe?
samelian	i don't think so
MutantTurkey	hrmm
samelian	hehe, you must be happy that "This document was successfully checked as HTML 4.01 Transitional!" :)
MutantTurkey	well apparently it is valid
MutantTurkey	yeah.
MutantTurkey	D:
MutantTurkey	should i just say  "FUCK STANDARDS" and fix the two lines back to the way they were?
MutantTurkey	i mean other than that it is valid
samelian	haha
samelian	ok, remove !DOCTYPE, will check another time what is the problem
samelian	wait, i will validate css too
MutantTurkey	okay good thinking
samelian	http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=96.245.17.6/media/archnavbar.css&amp;profile=css21&amp;usermedium=all&amp;warning=1&amp;vextwarning=&amp;lang=en
MutantTurkey	won't validate
MutantTurkey	my mime types are screwey it won't serve it up.
*SpaceMint has joined #trinity-desktop
samelian	seems that your server announce that css is octet-stream
MutantTurkey	yeah whatever
MutantTurkey	i'll copy paste
samelian	must be css/text
samelian	i think you must set lighthttp to announce corect tyle of css file
MutantTurkey	I just copied in the text to the CSS validator
MutantTurkey	said 'grats no errors :)
samelian	aha
MutantTurkey	do you think that is why my css is messed up?
samelian	i think that will working well on correct set server
samelian	nope, i don't think so
MutantTurkey	oh well. I am not worried.
MutantTurkey	it is fine
samelian	correct "Offical" word
*Xu_R_ goes to play with tbottu
samelian	tbottu: who you are?
tbottu	samelian: Sorry, I've no idea what 'who you' are.
samelian	haha
Xu_R_	lol
MutantTurkey	who is tbottu
Xu_R_	tbottu, who are you?
Xu_R_	tbottu: who are you?
Xu_R_	DX it doesn't like me XD
samelian	he have no ideea :)
Xu_R_	MutantTurkey: just the channel bot :P
Xu_R_	tbottu, what is kb9vqf?
tbottu	Xu_R_: Sorry, I've no idea what 'kb9vqf' is.
MutantTurkey	Xu_R_: needs a different name
Xu_R_	tbottu, what are you?
MutantTurkey	you guys need simpler names D:
samelian	tbottu: who is tbottu
Xu_R_	tbottu: help
tbottu	samelian: everyone knows that! tbottu is your benevolent host and logging droid, capable of giving helpful misinformation, bug status messages, and translations via Yahoo
tbottu	Xu_R_: help info /msg'ed
MutantTurkey	is tbottu a supybot?
MutantTurkey	It'd be nice to have it fetch link titles and such
Xu_R_	MutantTurkey: no, it's the mozilla ircbot
samelian	tbottu: google blabla
tbottu	samelian: Sorry, I've no idea what 'google blabla' might be.
samelian	tbottu: you are stupid
tbottu	samelian: But you are 'still of use to the project for sure'...
samelian	haha
*[lindaemon] has joined #trinity-desktop
Xu_R_	lol
Xu_R_	tbottu, converter
tbottu	Xu_R_: Sorry, I've no idea what 'converter' might be.
samelian	tbottu: help
MutantTurkey	mozilla irc bot?
tbottu	samelian: help info /msg'ed
MutantTurkey	make it a supy bot
Xu_R_	tbottu, Convert 25 F to C
tbottu	Xu_R_: Sorry, I've no idea what 'Convert 25 F to C' might be.
samelian	tbottu: 1+1
tbottu	samelian: Sorry, I've no idea what '1+1' might be.
Xu_R_	tbottu, temperature 25F
tbottu	Xu_R_: Sorry, I've no idea what 'temperature 25F' might be.
Xu_R_	:(
samelian	tbottu: Xu_R_ is sad
Xu_R_	the tbottu is dumb.
tbottu	samelian: ok
Xu_R_	XD
MutantTurkey	okay new theme
MutantTurkey	http://96.245.17.6/
Xu_R_	MutantTurkey: :O
samelian	MutantTurkey: change color for menu intems
Xu_R_	oooh, ahhhh... /stares
MutantTurkey	to blue?
Xu_R_	it looks perfect for me :)
MutantTurkey	hahah :p
samelian	can by a grey background
Xu_R_	MutantTurkey: top menu, hovering over menu items should not make them white (aka, unseeable)
samelian	put this:
samelian	a:hover { background-color: grey; }
MutantTurkey	right
MutantTurkey	there we go
samelian	or you can do this
MutantTurkey	I did it (was just a color change, the hover was just set to white)
samelian	a:hover { border: 1px grey #a0a0a0; background-color: #dedede; }
samelian	actually
samelian	a:hover { border: 1px solid #a0a0a0; background-color: #dedede; }
MutantTurkey	?
MutantTurkey	what does that do?
samelian	in css
samelian	instead #archnavbar ul li a:hover { color: #999 !important; text-decoration: underline !important; }
MutantTurkey	you lost me.
samelian	replace #archnavbar ul li a:hover { color: #999 !important; text-decoration: underline !important; }
samelian	with
samelian	#archnavbar a:hover { border: 1px solid #a0a0a0; background-color: #dedede; }
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	I am not sure i like it this way. why the change?
samelian	just for fun :)
samelian	can be improved
MutantTurkey	D:
MutantTurkey	well i think i have made enough progress for one day?
samelian	i think so
MutantTurkey	I'd like to get the table working though first
samelian	instead working on libkupower i play with css :)
Xu_R_	go samelian! :P
MutantTurkey	anyway I'm all done for the day.
MutantTurkey	I will leave my website running up for you guys so show kb9vqf if he comes back tonight
MutantTurkey	i maybe be able to hop on tonight.
MutantTurkey	or do you think i should mailing list this?
samelian	not yet
samelian	i think we need to improbe a little the color scheme
MutantTurkey	yes.
MutantTurkey	i do not like white ad the background.
MutantTurkey	for the top bar
MutantTurkey	anyway people can argue about colors all they want, the key is getting the website updated
samelian	for sure
MutantTurkey	because the current one is a major turn off.
MutantTurkey	how is anyone going to think of you as up to date if you are using a website from 1999?
samelian	hehe
MutantTurkey	Alright well i gotta split. heading over to a buddies to hang out.
MutantTurkey	talk to you later. and thanks for all the css help
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*kb9vqf doesn't care for the baby blue banner background on the website
*kb9vqf likes white much better
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Strangelv	What would be a better color?
Strangelv	My guess is it was chosen as that's the legacy heraldic color we inherited
Strangelv	possibyl offtopic: could we get away with fixing the right ALT key for US keyboards?
Strangelv	"or would that perturb someone at Canonical?
*Strangelv is tyring to get a graphical pattern for a project code named Kookaburra that he's been working on since last week around distractions and the non-vorking right alt is getting to be very, very annoying
Strangelv	"Actualy, there's two vecrsions of teh pattern.  one of them is finished.  The second version isn'd done a week and a half later... need to be faster with the next one
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*Strangelv finally finds the hidden place in the hidden configuration applet he couldn't remember the name for that makes right alt work again
Strangelv	"What if we put kcontrol back into the menuing system?
Strangelv	"for *ubuntu?
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*Strangelv pondecrs how to rearrange KControl so that it's less unintuitive
Strangelv	"The more I tihnk about it, the more it occurs to me that our core purpose is to provide teh most flexible and customizable desktop experience
Strangelv	Or to take our calling from a GNOME developer who can't stand our product, 'never meet a user accessable control we don't like'
*Strangelv ponders logos that represent this. A can of modeling clay? a set of tinkertoys? a handheld mirror? colorful wooden blocks?
Strangelv	The Ubuntu provided KDE control panel hides too many controls
strowi	ping serghei?
samelian	pong :)
strowi	ah, hi thx for your mails regarding the ebuilds (i'm Roman).
samelian	welcome
strowi	i got kdelibs compiled without avahi, still have a problem with the libdir on 64bit though.
samelian	what kind of problem?
strowi	not sure if its arts or kdelibs.. compiling  kdelibs with arts, seems to need /usr/kde/3.5/lib/libmcop.so.1, which is called ../lib64/.. that symlink is created after compilation of kdelibs.
samelian	aha, i think is arts
samelian	but in arts' cmake is _tde_internal_setup_path( LIB_INSTALL_DIR       "${EXEC_INSTALL_PREFIX}/lib${LIB_SUFFIX}" )
strowi	everything is installed in lib64, but it seems mcopidl looks in lib ( http://paste.pocoo.org/show/332524/ )
samelian	is used LIB_SUFFIX
samelian	you set LD_LIBRARY_PATH to apropriate dir?
strowi	where should i have set that?
strowi	oh.. hold on a second..
samelian	strowi: i think i found the problem
samelian	-DCMAKE_INSTALL_RPATH=/usr/kde/3.5/lib
strowi	i didn't see the hardcoded MAKE_INSTALL_RPATH in kdelibs
samelian	in ebuild
strowi	;)
strowi	${DEFAULT_ABI} should work
strowi	need to fix that in all others ebuilds or still create the symlink..
samelian	CMAKE_INSTALL_RPATH was I temporary workaround
samelian	I think the better idea is to use LD_LIBRARY_PATH
samelian	/I temporary/a temporary/
strowi	LD_LIBRARY_PATH = LDPAT H?
samelian	strowi: whay you mean
samelian	what*
strowi	sry, is LD_LIBRARY_PATH the same as LDPATH?
samelian	i'm not sure, I don't know what is LDPATH
samelian	LD_LIBRARY_PATH is like PATH, but for libraries
strowi	ok, seems gentoo-specific...
strowi	"I keep reading that LD_LIBRARY_PATH is insecure, and for gentoo env vars, it seems to only use LDPATH"
samelian	i see
samelian	in this case go to use LDPATH
strowi	addded to todo.
strowi	ok, that worked.;)
samelian	very well
samelian	strowi: you used my git repo for makink yours?
strowi	samelian, yes
samelian	i this is a bit outdated
samelian	I think
*samelian can't type
strowi	hehe.. which one?
samelian	git diff show me a pretty long list :)
strowi	mhh.. can you push it, or send me a patch?
samelian	the most important I think is kdevelop
samelian	wait
samelian	strowi: pushed
strowi	if the diff is only new ebuild it can wait a little still need to work through the existing ones.
samelian	sure
samelian	strowi: there is one more person who working on ebuilds
strowi	really? who?
samelian	toxic_something
samelian	a russian guy
samelian	I think that would be good ideea to merge our efforts
samelian	to avoid duplicate work
strowi	sure, didn't know there was anyone else..
strowi	do you have contact to him?
samelian	he appear here, from time to time
samelian	but he tell me that his english is not so good
samelian	I think do not matter to much, me english is bad either :)
samelian	s/me/my/
strowi	well, my russian is non-existant. So bad english es better than nothing.
samelian	hehe
samelian	if you want, I will give you right to change the git repo started by me
strowi	that would be nice, but i can't promise i won't mess up sth...
samelian	no problem, my ebuild are ugly anyway :)
samelian	you have account on github?
strowi	just found another problem... kde-config seems to be missing...
samelian	be sure that PATH are correctly set
strowi	its not in kde/3.5/bin/
samelian	kde-config is not in /usr/kde/3.5/bin ?
samelian	are you sure?
strowi	yes, only arts-files
samelian	kdelibs are installed?
strowi	yes
samelian	hmm, strange
strowi	maybe i messed sth up already.
samelian	you changed something in CMakeLists.txt?
strowi	only the avahi-part.
strowi	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/332538/
samelian	yes, I saw it in your git
samelian	"qfile kde-config" do not return anything?
strowi	nope
samelian	weird
samelian	try to re-emerge kdelibs and check what happens with kde-config
strowi	already running ebuild .. install
samelian	ok, ping me if you found something
strowi	ok
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strowi	rehi samelian
samelian	strowi: you found something?
strowi	well.. i found my own mistake..
strowi	i added a src_install, but forgot to call cmake-utils_src_install *argh*
strowi	so there was nothing installed from kdelibs.. as i said before, i am not that much of an portage-guru.
Strangelv	"You're making far better headway than I would
strowi	samelian, my github account is "strowi".
samelian	ok
strowi	samelian, how do you handle the Manifests? Do you merge them or rm/add them?
samelian	rm/digest
strowi	oh.. there must be an easier way.. maybe via post-update-hook..
samelian	strowi: I added you to github
strowi	samelian, thx, i will still maintain my own overlay and push to yours as i have working versions and i see fit. if that is ok.
samelian	for sure
samelian	we are volunteers, after all :)
strowi	samelian, do you want your distfiles added to the mirrorlist or should mine me the only one?
samelian	exclude my host
samelian	maybe I will broke it
strowi	ok, will you update the distfiles? I have no idea how/where to get them..
samelian	I make a lot experiments and is hard to keep is stabke
samelian	stable
samelian	from svn
samelian	http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/
samelian	Ladislav Laska (Krakonos) have write rights on my git repo too
samelian	but seems inactive
strowi	uhh looks like lots of work to do..
samelian	what do you mean?
samelian	you talk about svn?
strowi	i have to check how to make the packages from the svn and how/which directories to include...
samelian	follow my distfiles
strowi	ok, but first things first.. get a working version.;)
samelian	hehe, ok
samelian	if you have suggestions related to cmake, do not make patches for gentoo
samelian	just tell me, and I will commit it to svn
strowi	samelian, understood, it was just the single avahi till now...
samelian	ok, I will incorporate it to my cmake files
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MutantTurkey	o/
Strangelv	Morning
MutantTurkey	morning
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toxic_devil	hi all
MutantTurkey	hey
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toxic_devil	hi
MutantTurkey	how is it going?
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I've emailed some guy who had a great article about Slackware and Trinity, asking him if we could include it on the improved website.
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toxic_devil	shit
MutantTurkey	what?
MutantTurkey	samelian: hey man i need some formatting help D:
toxic_devil	&#1072; &#1084;&#1085;&#1077; cmake &#1085;&#1091;&#1078;&#1077;&#1085; &#1085;&#1072; &#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1089;&#1086;&#1092;&#1090;
samelian	hit me
MutantTurkey	samelian: what do i do with &lt;u&gt; 's?
MutantTurkey	why did they get rid of that?
MutantTurkey	ITS FUCKING annoying as hell.
MutantTurkey	css is great but.
MutantTurkey	seriously i don't want to define something for a single word.
samelian	replace &lt;u&gt; with &lt;em&gt;
toxic_devil	samelian: hm
MutantTurkey	em is underline?
samelian	ah, no
samelian	i have no ideea
MutantTurkey	:|
toxic_devil	samelian: cmake &#1091; &#1090;&#1077;&#1073;&#1103; &#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100; &#1085;&#1072; &#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1089;&#1086;&#1092;&#1090;?
MutantTurkey	i feel like they got rid of it for no reason whatsoever
samelian	i'm against text decoration, becaue is like a link
MutantTurkey	change for the sake of change
samelian	toxic_devil: i do not understand
toxic_devil	(
samelian	you ask me what version for cmake i have?
toxic_devil	&#1101;&#1084;&#1084;
toxic_devil	&#1073;&#1083;&#1080;&#1085;
toxic_devil	when will complete porting to cmake?
toxic_devil	pim
toxic_devil	multimedia
samelian	depends what you understand with "complete"
toxic_devil	&#1073;&#1083;&#1080;&#1085;
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toxic_devil	&#1084;&#1085;&#1077; &#1085;&#1091;&#1078;&#1077;&#1085; CMakeFilelist.txt &#1085;&#1072; &#1074;&#1089;&#1077; &#1087;&#1072;&#1082;&#1077;&#1090;&#1099;
samelian	there are all done packages: http://www.thel.ro/
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1072; &#1082;&#1086;&#1075;&#1076;&#1072; &#1101;&#1090;&#1086; &#1074;&#1089;&#1077; &#1074; svn &#1073;&#1091;&#1076;&#1077;&#1090;?
samelian	i'm not sure
toxic_devil	&#1074; &#1095;&#1077;&#1084; &#1085;&#1077; &#1091;&#1074;&#1077;&#1088;&#1077;&#1085;??
toxic_devil	&#1087;&#1086;&#1095;&#1077;&#1084;&#1091; svn &#1074; &#1090;&#1072;&#1082;&#1086;&#1084; &#1087;&#1083;&#1072;&#1095;&#1077;&#1074;&#1085;&#1086;&#1084; &#1089;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1086;&#1103;&#1085;&#1080;&#1080;??
toxic_devil	&#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1091; &#1074;&#1072;&#1089; &#1090;&#1072;&#1084; &#1074;&#1086;&#1086;&#1073;&#1096;&#1077; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1080;&#1089;&#1093;&#1086;&#1076;&#1080;&#1090;?
samelian	i working on cmake port only in my spare time
samelian	so, I do not know when will be ready
MutantTurkey	samelian: i can help probably
toxic_devil	&#1074;&#1099; &#1080;&#1079;&#1074;&#1080;&#1085;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077; &#1082;&#1086;&#1085;&#1077;&#1095;&#1085;&#1086; &#1085;&#1086; &#1074;&#1099; &#1082;&#1072;&#1082; &#1090;&#1086; &#1085;&#1077;&#1089;&#1083;&#1072;&#1078;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086; &#1088;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090;&#1077;(((
samelian	don't worry, is obviosuly
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1089;&#1086;&#1073;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077; &#1074;&#1089;&#1077; &#1092;&#1072;&#1081;&#1083;&#1099; &#1080; &#1079;&#1072;&#1082;&#1072;&#1095;&#1072;&#1081;&#1090;&#1077; &#1085;&#1072; svn
toxic_devil	[20:36:30] &lt;megabaks&gt;
toxic_devil	»Note: these tarballs contain ONLY cmake related files (not trinity sources).
toxic_devil	&#1087;&#1083;&#1103; - &#1076;&#1072; &#1091; &#1085;&#1077;&#1075;&#1086; &#1074;&#1089;&#1105; &#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100; &#1091;&#1078;&#1077; - &#1090;&#1086;&#1083;&#1100;&#1082;&#1086; &#1087;&#1091;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1080; &#1085;&#1072; &#1089;&#1074;&#1085; &#1080; &#1074;&#1089;&#1105;!
toxic_devil	»Note: these tarballs contain ONLY cmake related files (not trinity sources).
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1087;&#1086;&#1085;&#1080;&#1084;&#1072;&#1077;&#1096;&#1100;?
samelian	the cmake files are not ready to be commited to svn
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1079;&#1072;&#1082;&#1072;&#1095;&#1072;&#1081; &#1092;&#1072;&#1081;&#1083;&#1099; &#1093;&#1086;&#1090;&#1100; &#1082;&#1091;&#1076;&#1072; &#1085;&#1080;&#1073;&#1091;&#1076;&#1100;
toxic_devil	&#1088;&#1072;&#1079; &#1074;&#1088;&#1077;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080; &#1085;&#1077;&#1090;
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1080;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086; &#1085;&#1077; &#1075;&#1086;&#1090;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;?
samelian	i think the cmake files will be change too often
samelian	and I do not want to flood svn wil a lot small changes
samelian	can be annoying for other kde developers
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1074;&#1099; &#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1076;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1088;&#1080;&#1090;&#1100;&#1089;&#1103; &#1085;&#1077; &#1084;&#1086;&#1078;&#1077;&#1090;&#1077; &#1084;&#1077;&#1078;&#1076;&#1091; &#1089;&#1086;&#1073;&#1086;&#1081;?
samelian	this is not problem, the problem is that I have a rule to not commit unfinished work to svn
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1091; &#1090;&#1077;&#1073;&#1103; &#1087;&#1088;&#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1083;&#1086;?
toxic_devil	&#1072; &#1085;&#1072;&#1084; &#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100;??
toxic_devil	&#1082;&#1072;&#1082; &#1089;&#1086;&#1073;&#1080;&#1088;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100;?
toxic_devil	&#1089;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1072;&#1081;&#1090;&#1077; &#1085;&#1086;&#1088;&#1084;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1091;&#1102; &#1080;&#1085;&#1089;&#1090;&#1088;&#1091;&#1082;&#1094;&#1080;&#1102; &#1087;&#1086; &#1089;&#1073;&#1086;&#1088;&#1082;&#1077;
samelian	at this moment you can use my distfiles
toxic_devil	}:-(
samelian	or you can help to make more cmake files :)
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1091; &#1090;&#1077;&#1073;&#1103; &#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100; &#1095;&#1090;&#1086;-&#1085;&#1080;&#1073;&#1091;&#1076;&#1100; &#1085;&#1072;&#1087;&#1086;&#1076;&#1086;&#1073;&#1080;&#1077; &#1080;&#1085;&#1089;&#1090;&#1088;&#1091;&#1082;&#1094;&#1080;&#1080; &#1087;&#1086; &#1089;&#1073;&#1086;&#1088;&#1082;&#1077;?
toxic_devil	&#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1076;&#1072; &#1084;&#1099; help &#1090;&#1077;&#1073;&#1077;
toxic_devil	&#1085;&#1077;
toxic_devil	&#1085;&#1091; &#1086;&#1073;&#1080;&#1076;&#1085;&#1086;
toxic_devil	debian &#1080; ubuntu &#1089;&#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1091; &#1089;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1072;&#1083;&#1080; &#1076;&#1077;&#1073; &#1087;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090;&#1099; &#1072; &#1085;&#1072;&#1084; &#1092;&#1080;&#1075;
samelian	this is because deb are using autotools instead cmake
samelian	I won't using autotools for ebuilds
toxic_devil	WTF?
toxic_devil	&#1087;&#1086;&#1095;&#1077;&#1084;&#1091; &#1076;&#1083;&#1103; &#1073;&#1072;&#1079;&#1099; &#1084;&#1086;&#1078;&#1085;&#1086;, &#1072; &#1076;&#1083;&#1103; pim &#1085;&#1072;&#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088; &#1085;&#1077;&#1090;?
samelian	kdepim is partial comleted, only kmail are ported
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1072; &#1082;&#1086;&#1075;&#1076;&#1072; &#1075;&#1086;&#1090;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086; &#1073;&#1091;&#1076;&#1077;&#1090;?
samelian	i can't be sure, because I working on other projects too
samelian	right now I have't time to continue cmake
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1072; &#1087;&#1086;&#1095;&#1077;&#1084;&#1091; &#1090;&#1099; &#1086;&#1076;&#1080;&#1085; &#1101;&#1090;&#1080;&#1084; &#1079;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1084;&#1072;&#1077;&#1096;&#1100;&#1089;&#1103;
samelian	i have no ideea, because nobody won't help me? :))
toxic_devil	&#1085;&#1072; &#1074;&#1072;&#1089; &#1082;&#1090;&#1086;-&#1090;&#1086; &#1078;&#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1090; &#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1083;&#1080;?
toxic_devil	&#1076;&#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1090;
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1077;&#1089;&#1083;&#1080; &#1076;&#1072;&#1096; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088; &#1095;&#1077;&#1075;&#1086;-&#1085;&#1080;&#1073;&#1091;&#1076;&#1100;, &#1090;&#1086; &#1103; &#1086;&#1090; &#1090;&#1077;&#1073;&#1103; &#1086;&#1090;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1085;&#1091;
samelian	please rephrase, i do not understand
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1052;&#1099; &#1085;&#1077; &#1084;&#1086;&#1078;&#1077;&#1084; &#1078;&#1076;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100;
toxic_devil	&#1077;&#1089;&#1083;&#1080; &#1073;&#1091;&#1076;&#1077;&#1090;&#1077; &#1090;&#1072;&#1082; &#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100;
toxic_devil	&#1074;&#1072;&#1096; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090; &#1091;&#1084;&#1088;&#1077;&#1090;
samelian	in this case, you can help it to survive :)
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1090;&#1072;&#1082;
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1076;&#1072;&#1074;&#1072;&#1081; &#1074;&#1089;&#1077; &#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1091; &#1090;&#1103; &#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100;
samelian	everyting is on www.thel.ro, this my website
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1085;&#1080;&#1090;&#1100; &#1077;&#1096;&#1077; &#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100;?
samelian	nope
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MutantTurkey	o/
MutantTurkey	Who else here is making an attempt to do trinity on arch? someone posted to the mailing list again? nattyice something at gmail.com
samelian	MutantTurkey: if i'm not wrong, David C. Rankin
MutantTurkey	what is his nickname on the irc?
samelian	i'm not sure that is active on irc
MutantTurkey	ah.
MutantTurkey	yeah i need to ask him what he has done so far.
samelian	right now, he trying to build kdebase
samelian	check on mailing list my discussion with him
MutantTurkey	okay I will.
MutantTurkey	did he build all the other stuff like tqt-interface and such?
samelian	i guess
MutantTurkey	he definitely was doing it wrong. didn't even patch qt3 so i dunno
MutantTurkey	samelian: is it bad to use the &lt;br&gt; tag?
samelian	sometimes can be used
samelian	but most of times you do something wrong if you need &lt;br&gt;
MutantTurkey	http://96.245.17.6/installation.php
MutantTurkey	i need to format that specificially for new lines. so i forced a br
MutantTurkey	look at the source
MutantTurkey	is that okay?
samelian	i think you can use &lt;p&gt; for each line
MutantTurkey	?
MutantTurkey	really?
samelian	&lt;p&gt;deb http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity/ubuntu maverick main&lt;/p&gt;
samelian	why not
MutantTurkey	the would result in excess spacing
MutantTurkey	i just need a line break.
MutantTurkey	why not just &lt;br&gt; (break)
samelian	you can style &lt;p&gt;
MutantTurkey	wouldn't that make more sense?
MutantTurkey	what is wrong with &lt;br&gt; /
samelian	maybe you want to indent a little the text
MutantTurkey	it is supported in HTML5 and does exactly what i need it to.
MutantTurkey	I already have it indented 20px. there is a "subsection"
samelian	actually for code i suggest to use &lt;pre&gt;
MutantTurkey	okay
samelian	you don't need to keep &lt;br&gt; in &lt;pre&gt;
samelian	&lt;pre&gt; preserve the text exactly
samelian	including new lines and spaces
samelian	yes, very nice
samelian	just unindent the code
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	well i kind of like it.
MutantTurkey	I'd rather actually do like a text box
MutantTurkey	for code
MutantTurkey	with a different color
samelian	&lt;pre&gt; support styles, of course
MutantTurkey	for example
MutantTurkey	like
MutantTurkey	https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Rc.conf
MutantTurkey	they have a text area for code
samelian	you can style &lt;pre&gt; as a &lt;div&gt;
MutantTurkey	so &lt;div id="code"&gt; then &lt;pre&gt; in it?
samelian	nope
MutantTurkey	?
samelian	&lt;pre class="code"&gt;
samelian	for example
MutantTurkey	oh :D
MutantTurkey	so that makes it act as a div?
samelian	of couse
samelian	sort of
samelian	any container can be styled like a div
MutantTurkey	oh alright
samelian	in css, pre.code
MutantTurkey	http://96.245.17.6/installation.php
MutantTurkey	eh?
samelian	pretty well
samelian	just last line is wrong
samelian	&lt;/pre&gt; must be exactly after .....eps/ubuntu maverick main
MutantTurkey	right okay
samelian	because &lt;pre&gt; preserve all line separators
MutantTurkey	also how do i make it not go the full width?
samelian	in css
samelian	width: 70%
MutantTurkey	would that work for all scenerios?
samelian	i think
MutantTurkey	no it won't
MutantTurkey	because if you have a really small screen it will not wrap the whole text
samelian	try width: 10%
samelian	i'm curios if &lt;pre&gt; will be enlarged automatically if the text cannot fit
samelian	won't
MutantTurkey	nah
samelian	try this
samelian	remove width
samelian	an put
samelian	position:relative
MutantTurkey	nothing.
MutantTurkey	like this guy has it: http://projectcerbera.com/web/articles/code-in-pre
samelian	hmm, actually you need a fixed size of code container
samelian	othwerwise will look ugly
MutantTurkey	to the specific size of the code?
samelian	nopw
samelian	fixed in pixels
MutantTurkey	D: i thought that was not reccomende
samelian	will be ugly when the code will have different length
MutantTurkey	did you see that link?
samelian	yes, what you look for?
MutantTurkey	their code box works how i would like it too
samelian	i'm not so sure
samelian	his box is narrow because the column is narrow
MutantTurkey	ah
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samelian	kb9vqf: i don't know if you read about my question related to return values
samelian	we have two methods to return results
samelian	bool TClientPrivate::enumerateDevices(QValueList&lt;TDevice&gt; &amp;devices)
samelian	and QValueList&lt;TDevice&gt; TClient::enumerateDevices(bool *ok)
kb9vqf	OK
kb9vqf	What's the question?
samelian	which of them you preffer?
samelian	in first case, we can include it easy in if
samelian	like if(client-&gt;enumerateDevices(devices))
kb9vqf	I like the first case
samelian	the second one seems easy to understand
kb9vqf	It is closer to existing methods in Trinity
kb9vqf	Many Qt/Trinity methods return a bool error status
kb9vqf	I haven't seen anything like the second case within Trinity
samelian	so, this must be standard and I need to folow it
kb9vqf	Consistency is good :)
kb9vqf	Unless there is a very good reason not to
*kb9vqf doesn't like bool pointers anyway
samelian	yes, for consistency reason i bother you :)
kb9vqf	No bother :)
samelian	kb9vqf: also, maybe you have another ideea about signaling errors
samelian	ATM i implement it like this:
samelian	I send an error() signal
samelian	and the receiver of signal check for sender-&gt;lastError();
samelian	hmm, I just observed that this can be a problem in a concurent environment
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	Usually errors are handled via a return type of int
kb9vqf	The int value encodes an error type which is specified in an enum
samelian	in dbus environment will not be possibile to do this
kb9vqf	Then emit() the int error value
kb9vqf	The receiver can check the int value and determine the error
samelian	you can't encode as int something like "Method "EnumerateDevices1" with signature "" on interface "org.freedesktop.UPower" doesn't exist"
kb9vqf	You can also emit() an int and a QString
samelian	yes, this can be a better ideea
kb9vqf	together that is
samelian	also, I want to know from where come the error
kb9vqf	Technically you can emit() as many objects as you like
samelian	the same error can come from TClient or TDevice
kb9vqf	So emit() a device type as well
kb9vqf	Just make sure that that is an int or other machine parsable value
kb9vqf	Strings are not reliably machine-parsable
kb9vqf	They are only there to help the human operator ;-)
samelian	actually my intention is to help humans
samelian	is very unpleasant when an application just not working, without a clue for what reason is not working
samelian	an example is knetworkmanager
kb9vqf	Right
kb9vqf	My point is:
kb9vqf	emit() both human and machine readable values
kb9vqf	Not just one or the other
kb9vqf	For every int there should be a QString
kb9vqf	containing the error description
samelian	i'm not sure if machine readable value can be used for anything
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	Error handling/suppression
kb9vqf	Spurious errors do happen
kb9vqf	Or errors that are irrelevant in the current context
samelian	the error will be emitted asynchronously
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	But the watching program could theoretically ignore an error that it deems irrelevant
samelian	look, i imagine something like this:
samelian	if(enumerateDevices(devices)) qWarning("We have a problem, handle it");
samelian	emit error("Method call 'EnumerateDevices' failed with unknown error.");
samelian	the slot connected to error() will show an message box to user
kb9vqf	I wouild like to have an int there as well
samelian	to inform him about what happens
kb9vqf	so emit error(-1, "Unknown error")'
kb9vqf	Error codes are GOOD
kb9vqf	For the developer and for client applications
samelian	I agree, but when can be encoded
samelian	most of errors come from sbus
samelian	dbus
kb9vqf	Does DBUS ONLY return error strings?
kb9vqf	Or does it also return an error code?
samelian	dbus return an QDBusError
samelian	but i'm not sure that dbus errors are relevant in other context than dbus
samelian	dbus error code have no meaning in applications
kb9vqf	My thought is: let the application developer determine what has meaning
kb9vqf	Give them as much information as possible
kb9vqf	Even a semi-random error code will aid debugging
kb9vqf	If it is unique
kb9vqf	The application can always ignore the error code
samelian	yes, of course
kb9vqf	Otherwise we start telling app developers what they can and cannot use, and that sounds very familiar from KDE4
kb9vqf	;-)
samelian	hehe
samelian	ok, I will think about int encoding and how to do it useful
samelian	I can emit directly QDBusError
samelian	but the insulation from dbus will be compromitted
samelian	compromised*
samelian	kb9vqf: you know, qt4 dbus API is very different from qt3 dbus API?
kb9vqf	Yes
samelian	ok, in this case I will delegate low level calls to private class
samelian	will be TClientPrivate_qt4.cpp
samelian	and TClientPrivate_qt3.cpp
kb9vqf	OK
kb9vqf	Get qt3 working, then qt4
samelian	of course
kb9vqf	:)
samelian	actually i can't test qt4 version atm
*kb9vqf may have to add the Qt3 DBUS API to TQt
kb9vqf	I know at least knetworkmanager uses it
kb9vqf	It may just be easier to handle it with TQt
*kb9vqf is not sure ATM
samelian	ok, will see later
kb9vqf	Yup
samelian	i will isolate anyway dbus api callcs
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: doing alot of work on the website still.
kb9vqf	OK
kb9vqf	Just so you know, I really, really hate the light baby blue background ;-)
kb9vqf	Some other color maybe?
MutantTurkey	D: which one?
kb9vqf	The one in the header background
samelian	bleah, I have a problem with bool method(&amp;result)
MutantTurkey	I just have it for the purpose of showing what a color would look like.
kb9vqf	OK; I do prefer white
kb9vqf	But that can be changed later
samelian	for things like QString TClient::daemonVersion()
MutantTurkey	okay I'll show you now
kb9vqf	samelian: What's the problem?
samelian	for consistency, i must to use bool TClient::daemonVersion(QString &amp;result)
samelian	but seems unnatural
kb9vqf	Hmmm
kb9vqf	There's another way to handle that
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay it is a white background now.
kb9vqf	Usually you can return a null QString when there's an error
kb9vqf	That's the way Trinity usually does things anyway
kb9vqf	Note that a null QString is NOT an empty QString
samelian	but null qstring can meaning that there is no value
samelian	yes, know
kb9vqf	See above ;-)
samelian	"" is empty
kb9vqf	Right
kb9vqf	There's your "no value" string
samelian	QString::null i guess is null
kb9vqf	Or QString()
kb9vqf	I vastly prefer QString()
samelian	but the consistency will be affected anyway
kb9vqf	No, not really
samelian	i will must to do
kb9vqf	Trinity has always done this :)
samelian	QString result = client-&gt;daemonVersion()
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Much better, thanks!
samelian	if(result.isNull()) qWarning("we have a problem")
kb9vqf	Right
kb9vqf	If you look through the code that type of if() is all over the place
kb9vqf	isNull means there is no sane answer available
samelian	but, i have another situation
samelian	client-&gt;hasHibernate()
samelian	which is bool
samelian	false ca meaning error or not support for hibernate
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Now just add in the release sidebar on the right.  It's looking much better than before!
kb9vqf	samelian: Use an int
kb9vqf	-1 being the error
kb9vqf	0 is false
kb9vqf	1 is ture
kb9vqf	true
samelian	hmm, too many inconsistencies
kb9vqf	Once again that's how Trinity code usually handles things
samelian	if(isnull), if(-1), if(method())
kb9vqf	Passing by reference is not used often
kb9vqf	technically -1 should always be the error case
kb9vqf	Never 0
kb9vqf	So you have if(isnull), if(&lt;0)
kb9vqf	Those are the two error cases
kb9vqf	Bool is usually not returned
kb9vqf	usually it is only an int return value for error
kb9vqf	There are too many problems with bool
samelian	this is for plain C, but i'm not sure about C++
kb9vqf	C++ still uses int return values for errors
kb9vqf	A defacto Linux standard is that a negative return is an error
kb9vqf	The only problem is that you cannot have a negative QString
kb9vqf	Only a Null one :-)
samelian	yes
samelian	and isNull is bool type
kb9vqf	Unfortuantely that inconsistency runs deep within Qt
kb9vqf	No way to change it
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: yes i need to figure that out after dinner.
MutantTurkey	also the side bar will include links and such to web pages
kb9vqf	Sounds good MutantTurkey
samelian	is pretty bad to use something like if(1 == client-&gt;hasHibernate())
samelian	the programmers will assume that hasHibernate is bool
samelian	i will made a big mistake if will use if(hasHibernate())
samelian	because error will treated as true
kb9vqf	Will it?
samelian	they will*
*kb9vqf goes to look up implicit bool conversion
MutantTurkey	I am also renaming and reorginizing the structure.
kb9vqf	samelian: Seems you are correct
*kb9vqf is not sure how to handle that
*samelian hate to made this kind of design decisions :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: everything is a php file and i am consolidating stuff also. one question, is the mailing list generated in php?
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: No
MutantTurkey	:O
kb9vqf	ezmlm
kb9vqf	Old script-type stuff
MutantTurkey	ezmlm? okay well how could we include the header and footer then?
kb9vqf	I'll have to work on the integration from this end
kb9vqf	It's a very complicated system
MutantTurkey	okay. they are just in media/header.php and media/footer.php for them.
kb9vqf	Sounds good
MutantTurkey	yep.
MutantTurkey	I need to get screenshots also, if someone has ones they'd like me to use.
kb9vqf	Same with the SVN patches, etc.
kb9vqf	Well, there are the two from the Ubuntu CDs
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: yeah, :/ (which by the way should be reverse sorted)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: are those good to use?
kb9vqf	Go ahead
MutantTurkey	okay
kb9vqf	I can make some Debian ones as well
MutantTurkey	I'll make thumbnails and such in a while.
kb9vqf	Sometime.... :)
MutantTurkey	the home page is going to be pretty much the 3.5.12 annoucements, a brief introduction links and t he sidebar thing.
kb9vqf	OK
MutantTurkey	okay great. I'm off to eat dinner. I'll work more after
kb9vqf	ttyl
kb9vqf	samelian: For simple queries such as hasHibernate just return false if there was an error
kb9vqf	If such a simple query failed then we cannot assume a complex function like hibernate will work
kb9vqf	The underlying DBUS failure would be caught somewhere else
samelian	but the user must be announced that hibernate query is not working, but is not because his machine
kb9vqf	Then you cannot have a bool return
kb9vqf	Or anything that looks like a bool
samelian	maybe libkpower have no rights to read upower dbus
kb9vqf	Just state: This is an int return
kb9vqf	In the documentation put a warning that if(hasHibernate) will not work
kb9vqf	and that if(hasHibernate == 1) is required
kb9vqf	That's the only way to handle it
samelian	hehe, we assume that programmer will read the docs carefully
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	We have to
kb9vqf	You can screw up a lot of things with implicit bool conversion
kb9vqf	I know!
kb9vqf	Qt4 locks out implicit bool conversion
kb9vqf	Just do the same thing in your class
samelian	maybe is better to use bool method(bool * ok), after all
kb9vqf	NO
kb9vqf	See above :)
kb9vqf	We can prohibit the implicit converson
*kb9vqf forgot until now
kb9vqf	So the compiler will emit an error message, and the programmer will change it to == 1
samelian	aha, you want to forbid using if(hasHibernate())
kb9vqf	Yes
samelian	i'm not sure if is possible
kb9vqf	It is
kb9vqf	Qt4 does it
samelian	bool is pretty same as int
kb9vqf	In qbytearray
samelian	i will check it
kb9vqf	Basically you make the bool() operator private
kb9vqf	You will probably have to make yourself a return type class
kb9vqf	Make bool() private
kb9vqf	but allow int()
kb9vqf	Seems simple enough to me :)(
samelian	but if() will not try to use int as condition?
samelian	or I cand define something like this:
samelian	typedef { Has = 1 } TypeHas
samelian	TypeHas hasHibernate()
kb9vqf	Actually, if will try to use the int for condition only when if(return == 1) is used
samelian	i see
kb9vqf	When if runs into the private bool it will halt the compilation
samelian	ok, I will try to forbid bool conversion
kb9vqf	That should do it :)
samelian	the inconsistency remain with int enumerateDevices(deviceList)
kb9vqf	How so?
samelian	is not the same with hasHibernate()
samelian	also, we have double voltage()
kb9vqf	voltage() cannot be negative
kb9vqf	That's easy :)
samelian	but power() can
samelian	charge/uncharge
kb9vqf	Hmm
*kb9vqf doesn't like that
samelian	charge are positive, uncharge negative
kb9vqf	I know, but...
kb9vqf	The assumption is negative values are errors
samelian	yes, but in this case is a valid value
kb9vqf	How's this:
kb9vqf	We have a special return class
kb9vqf	It contains both the value, and an error code and error string
kb9vqf	Maybe it even has the convenience function success()
kb9vqf	so you return TDBUSError
kb9vqf	the application does if(tdbe.success())
kb9vqf	so you return TDBUSReturn
kb9vqf	sorry
kb9vqf	the application does if(tdbr.success())
kb9vqf	tdbr.value
kb9vqf	Better yet, the implicit int() operator returns the value
kb9vqf	Just a thought
samelian	and value must be overloaded
kb9vqf	Yes
samelian	int value()
samelian	double value()
kb9vqf	Well, that won't work
kb9vqf	hang on
kb9vqf	T value
kb9vqf	type
kb9vqf	so KDBUSReturn&lt;float&gt;
kb9vqf	or KDBUSReturn&lt;int&gt;
kb9vqf	etc.
kb9vqf	then T value() returns the value
samelian	but what about KDBUSReturn&lt;QValueList&lt;TDevices&gt; &gt; value ? :)
kb9vqf	That's OK
kb9vqf	Just a but ugly
samelian	we enter to template hell :)
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	But we've been through most of the other "solutions"
kb9vqf	It's either consistent or template hell :)
kb9vqf	inconsistent, rather
samelian	so, we must choose something unnatural, but consistent
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	and for most things consistent is OK
samelian	like bool hasHibernate(QString &amp;result)
samelian	sorry
samelian	bool hasHibernate(bool &amp;result)
kb9vqf	I HATE that reference to bool
kb9vqf	I can see all kinds of nastiness
kb9vqf	hard to trace problems, etc.
kb9vqf	Segfaults
kb9vqf	:-P
samelian	maybe for pointers
samelian	references are pretty easy to trace
kb9vqf	OK, here's the naieve programmer's take on that
kb9vqf	:
kb9vqf	return hasHibernate(bool error);
kb9vqf	Spot the problem?
samelian	this is pretty weird call
kb9vqf	Hint: it'll crash badly :)
kb9vqf	Well, my thought is this:
kb9vqf	The application developer may just ignore the error
kb9vqf	Not want to deal with it
kb9vqf	But the function DEMANDS a reference
kb9vqf	So the easiest way to deal with that demand is the call I posted
kb9vqf	But it'll crash or not compile, depending on the exact C compiler
samelian	but this call is completely useless
samelian	return hasHibernate(bool error);
samelian	because hasHibenate is defined like this
kb9vqf	OK, wait
kb9vqf	I think I flipped the two
samelian	bool hasHibernate( bool &amp;result )
kb9vqf	Your definition may work
kb9vqf	But it's unnatural
samelian	yes, as i said :)
kb9vqf	I expect hasHibernate to tell me if it can hibernate, not if there was an error
samelian	but is the single easy and consistent option
kb9vqf	I can see lots of confusion as a result
samelian	yes, you right
kb9vqf	Let's go with the template return type
kb9vqf	Final decision :)
samelian	bleah, is really ugly :)
kb9vqf	At least that one will throw compilation errors instead of malfunctioning
samelian	like this KDBUSReturn&lt;QValueList&lt;TDevices&gt; &gt;
kb9vqf	I've seen that
kb9vqf	In kdepim
samelian	and kdepim is very unstable
kb9vqf	You can make it prettier like this:
samelian	and very hard to trace segfault
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kb9vqf	typedef KDBUSDeviceListReturn KDBUSReturn&lt;QValueList&lt;TDevices&gt;&gt;
samelian	i think &gt;&gt; will not work
samelian	&gt;&gt; is not shift?
kb9vqf	You can nest templates
samelian	must be &gt; &gt;
samelian	with space between &gt;
kb9vqf	Yes of course
*kb9vqf didn't hit the spacebar hard enough
kb9vqf	It's even harder to trace a logic error
kb9vqf	IMHO
kb9vqf	If you expect hasHibernate to return whether something can hibernate
kb9vqf	and it returns an error status instead
samelian	yes
kb9vqf	At least with the segfault you get a backtrace
samelian	then bool hasHibernate(bool *ok)
Borg^Queen	hello humans, AIs and others
samelian	or
kb9vqf	And there's my bad call I posted above
samelian	bool hasHibernate(bool *ok = NULL)
kb9vqf	ICK ICK ICK
samelian	if ok is null, i will return no error
kb9vqf	Instant segfault :)
samelian	npe
samelian	i will check it
kb9vqf	Oh wait, you changed the reference
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: o/
kb9vqf	to a pointer
samelian	if is null, no error
kb9vqf	Hmm
kb9vqf	I still see this bad code as a first attempt:
kb9vqf	bool * error;
kb9vqf	bool canHibernate = hasHibernate(error);;
kb9vqf	bool canHibernate = hasHibernate(&amp;error);
kb9vqf	I don't know
samelian	the elegant solution can be try { bool hibernate = hasHibernate() } catch(...) { qWarning("we have a problem") }
samelian	but qt do not use exceptions :|
kb9vqf	Right
kb9vqf	I still like the templates
kb9vqf	Seems to be consistant and flexible
kb9vqf	Honestly there's much less chance of a stray segfault when passing objects around
kb9vqf	References and pointers have their place, but when the return type is so small I think they are more trouble than they are worth
samelian	you proposed a pretty good solution like if(success())
samelian	or if(error())
kb9vqf	Now think of multithreading though
kb9vqf	The operation should be atomic
kb9vqf	And those are not
samelian	yes, is not
kb9vqf	I vote for templates and typedefs
kb9vqf	It becomes very simple then
samelian	ok, i'm without good solution, so, I agree with you :)
kb9vqf	:)
*kb9vqf goes back to troubleshooting mouse events
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MutantTurkey	samelian: http://96.245.17.6/installation.php :) got it working nicely
MutantTurkey	it wraps lines (in this case not so well because it wraps based on words and the url is parsed as one word
kb9vqf	That background color is much nicer than the blue as well ;-)
MutantTurkey	agreed.
MutantTurkey	again, that is all for later.
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: cute nick
Borg^Queen	brb
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: thank you ma'am
Borg^Queen	:)
MutantTurkey	:p
*samelian forgot how to create a C++ template :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: does Trinity have any color scheme associated with it? i mean ubuntu has shit brown, fedora i think red. etc
kb9vqf	Not right now
kb9vqf	Other than the blue in the logo
kb9vqf	And white
MutantTurkey	okay
samelian	kb9vqf: help me a little with template, if you can
samelian	template&lt;class T&gt;
samelian	class TValue {
samelian	public:
samelian	TValue(){}
samelian	T &amp;operator() { return m_value; }
samelian	int error() const { return m_error; }
samelian	QString errorString() { return m_errorString; }
samelian	private:
samelian	T m_value;
samelian	int m_error;
samelian	QString m_errorString;
samelian	};
samelian	I think my operator() is not well defined
samelian	the compiller cry
samelian	UPower_TValue.h:38: error: function definition does not declare parameters
kb9vqf	Which one is line 38?
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samelian	T &amp;operator() { return m_value; }
kb9vqf	Well you can't do it that way
kb9vqf	What are you trying to do with that line?
kb9vqf	Return the value?
samelian	reference to m_value
samelian	for automatic cast
samelian	i want to do this:
kb9vqf	Try &amp;T() {return m_value}
samelian	TValue val = hasHibernate()
samelian	if(val) qWarning("we have hibernate");
samelian	&amp;T() is not working
samelian	ISO C++ forbids declaration of 'T' with no type
kb9vqf	What happens without the &amp;
kb9vqf	So T() {return m_value}
*kb9vqf does not recall if this can be done with templates
samelian	i think this is constructor of T
kb9vqf	T is the type
kb9vqf	TValue() is the constructor
samelian	but it T is class, T() is constructor of class
kb9vqf	For builtin types you can do bool() {return a_bool}
kb9vqf	IIRC
kb9vqf	Hang on
samelian	QString cast to const char* with operator()
kb9vqf	const char * is special
kb9vqf	Trust me :)
samelian	aha
kb9vqf	Try operator T () { return m_value; }
kb9vqf	Or operator &amp;T () { return m_value; }
kb9vqf	^^ I don't know if that last one is the correct syntax though
kb9vqf	The first one should be correct
kb9vqf	Remember that pass-by-reference can be dangerous
kb9vqf	You may just want to pass the object itself
kb9vqf	i.e. a copy
samelian	for sure, I will not return reference
MutantTurkey	are there Debian CD images with Trinity pre loaded
MutantTurkey	or is that only kubuntu
kb9vqf	Someone was working on a Debian CD but I don't think it's finished
kb9vqf	See the trinity-devel mailing list archives IIRC
samelian	kb9vqf: seems that &amp;operator T() { return m_value; } is correct way
kb9vqf	I was wondering about that
kb9vqf	OK
*kb9vqf has not had to do that for a long time
MutantTurkey	http://96.245.17.6/installation.php all finished.
kb9vqf	May I suggest that the header logo say "Trinity Desktop Environment" instead of just "Trinity"?
kb9vqf	Otherwise, ignoring the missing right hand side box, it looks good!
kb9vqf	Err..I guess on the installation page there is no right hand side box
kb9vqf	So it's fine as-is then, execpt the header suggestion :)
MutantTurkey	D:
MutantTurkey	well okay with the header, the reason to keep it shorter is A) we already say Trinity Desktop Environment on the home page as the first header B) it scales better. smaller icon = better for all sized monitors because it can scale down without pushing the list of links out of the way. C) the word trinity isn't even needed really, it could just be the icon.
MutantTurkey	i took alot of time to think about that one.
kb9vqf	Well, (and this is just a suggestion, as I did NOT take lots of time to think it through):
kb9vqf	We could say Trinity Desktop Environment on the top and just shorten it to Trinity on the front page
MutantTurkey	hmmm
kb9vqf	Also, people may wonder what "Trinity" is just by itself
kb9vqf	e.g. if Google points them straight at the install page
MutantTurkey	yes especially since the front page is actually going to start with an image of the desktop, and under neath say "3.5.12 is out!" and list improvements under that
MutantTurkey	everything else, will be pushed away.
kb9vqf	Right
MutantTurkey	working on this one now http://96.245.17.6/installation_lenny.php
kb9vqf	I like the overall site layout much better
MutantTurkey	I need a list of mirrors to add to the working around the problem (i assume we have more than one)
kb9vqf	I'll handle that
MutantTurkey	okay
kb9vqf	I have an internal list here that I can insert automatically ;-)
MutantTurkey	awesome
kb9vqf	Thanks again for fixing up the site
kb9vqf	It looks a heap side better
MutantTurkey	I am really enjoying this tbh. I have been avoiding the web for a long time.
MutantTurkey	so getting back into it is fun.
kb9vqf	Great :)
MutantTurkey	again, people like clean and simple, easy to navigate. that is crucial. Hopefully this will help sort that all out.
MutantTurkey	if people like the site, they are more likely to take TrinityDE seriously.
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: i am changing all references of your email address to our mailing list page instead.
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: also sorry, i know your AFK. but I am pretty much done work for tonight. I have converted the lenny 301 page and install page so thats good for today. I'll keep working on it probably monday (tomorrow is very very hectic with band practice and church and super bowl (go steelers!) so I won't be able to do much till then)
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Piki	hi
MutantTurkey	hey Piki
MutantTurkey	Piki: http://96.245.17.6/ what does the top logo say?
MutantTurkey	i am getting a weird problem from it
Piki	it's a KDE gear with a T instead of a K, and it says Trinity next to it
MutantTurkey	hmmmm. now look at: http://96.245.17.6/media/trinitylogo.png
MutantTurkey	I am calling that image but only Trinity shows up D:
MutantTurkey	oh nevermind, It was a CSS issue.
Piki	Trinity Desktop Environment
Piki	a bit slow, kvirc isn't allowing me to click links for some reason
MutantTurkey	kvirc is a bit slow for my liking.
MutantTurkey	a bit to complicated for just an irc client.
MutantTurkey	irssi is just easier for me to use.
Piki	a don't like doing things in a CLI, and a konsole is a bit small for IRC for my liking
MutantTurkey	yeah
Piki	much prefer konversation, but our repos are still a dependency mess
MutantTurkey	pidgin works for me also, because i have google chat as well as AIM and IRC
MutantTurkey	would a Pidgin to Qt Port be favorable?
Piki	don't really like the way pidgin does irc
MutantTurkey	yeah It's a bit meh.
MutantTurkey	but a Trinity version of pidgin would be nice. Qt lacks a good messanging program right?
Piki	MutantTurkey: considering how popular pidgin is, i'd say it'd be a good idea
Piki	kopete
MutantTurkey	yeah. I've looked at the code base not to bad.
MutantTurkey	It is a glib and gnome mess though
Piki	but that requires kde
MutantTurkey	we'd have to clean it up.
Piki	i'm using kopete right now, rather nice, but apparently the kde4 version doesn't do irc, and the kde3 version doesn't do file transfer
MutantTurkey	anyway I've gotta split some buds are coming over.
Piki	i have it setup from gtalk and aim
MutantTurkey	we can hack in IRC or something.
MutantTurkey	I'll be back later. or monday
Piki	ok
BQ-AFK	gn to all
samelian	kb9vqf: so far, template based responses working as expected
samelian	http://paste.lug.ro/131038
Xu_R	samelian: making good progress, I see. :)
samelian	hehe
Xu_R	go samelian! we're rooting for ya! :D
samelian	unfortunately, because i'm busy with dbus stuff, cmake port stalling
Piki	i'll hopefully be rooting android at some point
Xu_R	samelian: well, I'm getting stalled on the RPM stuff right now too, so we're about the same :P
Xu_R	I hate real-life doings. xD
samelian	:)
Piki	i'm still stalled on packaging tde here
Xu_R	samelian: see, I'll even convince my bot to root for you.
Xu_R	well...
Xu_R	if I can get my bot to say something xD
Piki	Xu_R: eggdrop with some tcl scripts ;-)
[lindaemon]	Go samelian!
samelian	:)
Xu_R	there we go :P
Xu_R	just gotta love supybot, it's the best IRC bot eva :D
samelian	I think I need some sleep :)
samelian	gn all
Piki	Xu_R: you like soupy stuff
Xu_R	wiat... you're +2 right samelian?
Xu_R	god damn, go to sleep samelian! no overworking! XD
Xu_R	Piki: maybe. xD
Piki	i don't really like eggs, but i loved my grandmother's eggdrop soup ;-)
Xu_R	Piki: GAH. One minute BQ-AFK is on #unitylinux, next minute she's gone. damn lurker.
*Xu_R notes to self to kick her the next time she gets on IRC
Piki	Xu_R: go in #arklinux and type "? xu_r" (include the space, not the quotes)
Xu_R	Piki: I saw, don't worry. I've been in there even after you banned me from there. XD To be exact, maybe like a day after.
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Piki	LOL just found a video where a couple 5 yo girls steal a car from a guy with a broken leg and run over his legs
*kb9vqf doesn't think that's very funny
Piki	kb9vqf: eh? you know it's not real, right?
kb9vqf	No I didn't
kb9vqf	Thanks for clarifying :)
Piki	well, how can a couple 5yo's steal a car?
kb9vqf	I dunno
kb9vqf	Guy left the car on and in drive?
kb9vqf	Anyway, getting waaayy off topic here ;-)
Piki	then how do the girls get the gas?
kb9vqf	Another Qt4 bug I wonder?
kb9vqf	Qt automatically grabs the mouse when a mouse button is pressed inside a widget; the widget will continue to receive mouse events until the last mouse button is released.
kb9vqf	That's not what I see :-P
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Svedrin	hey there... I'm currently mirroring trinity for debian squeeze here: http://debmirror.funzt-halt.net/
Svedrin	if anyone wants to use the mirror, feel free
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edakiri	how can the font system (and fontconfig?) be told to find typefaces which are newly copied into share/fonts/ ?
edakiri	restarting once again.
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*Strangelv has never gotten fonts to work that aren't installed to his user directory
Strangelv	"Thu system level save has, as best I can tell, never worked, all the way back to 5.04
Strangelv	"for Kubuntu
Strangelv	"Can't recall my mileage with Libranet/Debian.  It's been too long, but I don't remember having gotten it to work there, either
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MutantTurkey	o/
edakiri	Does trinity work in combination with Debian sid/unstable?
edakiri	I'll let you know.
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TokRa	toxic_devil :)
toxic_devil	TokRa: &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1074;&#1077;&#1090;
toxic_devil	TokRa: &#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1103; &#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086; &#1088;&#1077;&#1073;&#1103;&#1090;&#1072; &#1091;&#1073;&#1100;&#1102;&#1090;(((
TokRa	&#1047;&#1072; &#1095;&#1090;&#1086;? :)
toxic_devil	TokRa: &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1072;&#1085; cmake &#1085;&#1077; &#1076;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090;(((
toxic_devil	&#1088;&#1077;&#1073;&#1103;&#1090;&#1072; &#1090;&#1088;&#1077;&#1073;&#1091;&#1102;&#1090; &#1095;&#1090;&#1086;&#1073; &#1074; &#1089;&#1074;&#1085; &#1074;&#1089;&#1077; &#1079;&#1072;&#1083;&#1080;&#1083;&#1080;
toxic_devil	TokRa: &#1072; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1072;&#1085; &#1095;&#1086; &#1090;&#1086; &#1084;&#1091;&#1090;&#1080;&#1090; &#1075;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1088;&#1080;&#1090; &#1085;&#1077;&#1075;&#1086;&#1090;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086; &#1077;&#1096;&#1077; &#1074;&#1089;&#1077;
toxic_devil	&#1072; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084; &#1078;&#1077; &#1102;&#1079;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090;
toxic_devil	&#1072; &#1085;&#1072;&#1084; &#1085;&#1077; &#1076;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090;
toxic_devil	&#1087;&#1087;&#1094;
toxic_devil	:'(
TokRa	&#1044;&#1086;&#1078;&#1076;&#1080;&#1089;&#1100;, &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1072; &#1073;&#1091;&#1076;&#1077;&#1090; &#1075;&#1086;&#1090;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;
toxic_devil	TokRa: &#1076;&#1099;&#1082; &#1091; &#1085;&#1080;&#1093; &#1074;&#1072;&#1096;&#1077; &#1085;&#1077;&#1087;&#1086;&#1081;&#1084;&#1080; &#1095;&#1086; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1080;&#1089;&#1093;&#1086;&#1076;&#1080;&#1090;
toxic_devil	&#1082;&#1072;&#1078;&#1076;&#1099;&#1081; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1088;&#1072;&#1073; &#1095;&#1086; &#1090;&#1086; &#1087;&#1080;&#1083;&#1080;&#1090; &#1074; &#1091;&#1075;&#1083;&#1091;
toxic_devil	&#1086;&#1085;&#1080; &#1082;&#1072;&#1082; &#1085;&#1077; &#1074;&#1084;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1077; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1088;&#1072;&#1073;&#1072;&#1090;&#1099;&#1074;&#1072;&#1102;&#1090;
TokRa	&#1042;&#1086;&#1090; &#1087;&#1086;&#1101;&#1090;&#1086;&#1084;&#1091; &#1103; &#1080; &#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1077;&#1087;&#1086;&#1083;&#1079;&#1083;&#1072; &#1085;&#1072; Mint &#1080; Gnone
TokRa	^_^
toxic_devil	&#1076;&#1072; &#1082;&#1091;&#1090;&#1077; &#1093;&#1086;&#1095;&#1077;&#1090;&#1089;&#1103;
toxic_devil	&#1072; &#1082;&#1076;&#1077; &#1074;&#1099;&#1087;&#1091;&#1089;&#1090;&#1080;&#1083;&#1080; &#1074;&#1077;&#1088;&#1089;&#1080;&#1080; 4.6
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toxic_devil	&#1058;&#1040;&#1050;&#1054;&#1045; &#1043;&#1054;&#1042;&#1053;&#1054;
toxic_devil	&#1085;&#1072; &#1091;&#1096;&#1080; &#1085;&#1077; &#1086;&#1076;&#1077;&#1085;&#1077;&#1096;&#1100;
TokRa	"&#1087;&#1083;&#1072;&#1079;&#1084;&#1072; &#1085;&#1077; &#1087;&#1072;&#1076;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090;" (c)
TokRa	&#1055;&#1086;&#1089;&#1083;&#1077;&#1076;&#1085;&#1077;&#1077; &#1074;&#1088;&#1077;&#1084;&#1103; &#1084;&#1080;&#1088; &#1082;&#1091;&#1076;&#1072;-&#1090;&#1086; &#1082;&#1072;&#1090;&#1080;&#1090;&#1089;&#1103;
toxic_devil	TokRa: &#1073;&#1075;&#1075;
toxic_devil	&#1091; &#1085;&#1080;&#1093; &#1091; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1088;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1095;&#1080;&#1082;&#1086;&#1074; &#1090;&#1088;&#1080;&#1085;&#1080;&#1090;&#1080; &#1074;&#1086;&#1086;&#1073;&#1096;&#1077; &#1082;&#1090;&#1086; &#1085;&#1080;&#1100; &#1075;&#1083;&#1072;&#1074;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100;7
TokRa	&#1044;&#1072;, &#1087;&#1088;&#1077;&#1087;&#1086;&#1076;&#1086;&#1073;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; Timothy Pearson, &#1086;&#1085; &#1078;&#1077; kb9vqf
TokRa	&#1055;&#1086;&#1082;&#1088;&#1091;&#1095;&#1077; &#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1055;&#1072;&#1090;&#1088;&#1080;&#1082;&#1072; (&#1080;&#1079; &#1057;&#1083;&#1072;&#1082;&#1074;&#1072;&#1088;&#1080;) &#1073;&#1091;&#1076;&#1077;&#1090;
edakiri	it seems to work as before, except for system notification sounds.
TokRa	&#1050; &#1089;&#1086;&#1078;&#1072;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1102;, &#1103; &#1085;&#1077; &#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1102; &#1085;&#1080; &#1086;&#1076;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1074;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1103;&#1077;&#1084;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1072;&#1085;&#1072;&#1083;&#1086;&#1075;&#1072; KMail (&#1080;&#1079;-&#1079;&#1072; &#1087;&#1086;&#1076;&#1076;&#1077;&#1088;&#1078;&#1082;&#1080; Maildir &#1080; &#1085;&#1072;&#1089;&#1090;&#1088;&#1086;&#1077;&#1082;) &#1080; Kate &#1088;&#1077;&#1076;&#1072;&#1082;&#1090;&#1086;&#1088;&#1072;.
edakiri	sound from trinity itself works
TokRa	toxic_devil: &#1087;&#1086;&#1090;&#1086;&#1084;&#1091; &#1080; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1076;&#1077;&#1088;&#1078;&#1080;&#1074;&#1072;&#1102;&#1089;&#1100; KDE
toxic_devil	TokRa: &#1073;&#1083;&#1080;&#1085; &#1076;&#1072; &#1084;&#1085;&#1077; &#1103;&#1079;&#1099;&#1082;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1081; &#1073;&#1072;&#1088;&#1100;&#1077;&#1088; &#1084;&#1077;&#1096;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090;,&#1103; &#1087;&#1086;&#1085;&#1080;&#1084;&#1072;&#1102; &#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1086;&#1085;&#1080; &#1087;&#1080;&#1091;&#1090;,&#1072; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084; &#1085;&#1077; &#1084;&#1086;&#1075;&#1091; &#1087;&#1088;&#1077;&#1076;&#1083;&#1086;&#1078;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103; &#1089;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1074;&#1083;&#1103;&#1090;&#1100;((
TokRa	Google Translate :)
toxic_devil	TokRa: &#1085;&#1091; &#1085;&#1091; &#1075;&#1091;&#1075;&#1083; &#1090;&#1088;&#1072;&#1085;&#1089;&#1083;&#1077;&#1081;&#1090;
toxic_devil	&#1085;&#1077; &#1089; &#1088;&#1091;&#1089;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;&#1084; &#1103;&#1079;&#1099;&#1082;&#1086;&#1084; &#1103; &#1090;&#1103; &#1091;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1103;&#1102;
toxic_devil	)))
toxic_devil	TokRa: &#1072; &#1085;&#1072;&#1089;&#1095;&#1077;&#1090; kmail &#1080; kate &#1085;&#1077; &#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1102; &#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1090;&#1099; &#1074; &#1085;&#1080;&#1093; &#1085;&#1072;&#1096;&#1083;&#1072; &#1090;&#1072;&#1082;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086;
toxic_devil	&#1103; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1074;&#1099;&#1082; nano &#1087;&#1086;&#1083;&#1100;&#1079;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100;&#1089;&#1103;
TokRa	kmail: &#1087;&#1086;&#1076;&#1076;&#1077;&#1088;&#1078;&#1082;&#1072; Maildir
toxic_devil	&#1072; &#1087;&#1086;&#1095;&#1090;&#1072; &#1091; &#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1103; &#1095;&#1077;&#1088;&#1077;&#1079; &#1076;&#1078;&#1072;&#1073;&#1073;&#1077;&#1088; &#1090;&#1088;&#1072;&#1085;&#1089;&#1087;&#1086;&#1088;&#1090; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1082;&#1088;&#1091;&#1095;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;
toxic_devil	* &#1087;&#1086;&#1076;&#1091;&#1084;&#1099;&#1074;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090; &#1091;&#1073;&#1080;&#1090;&#1100; samelian
MutantTurkey	o/
toxic_devil	MutantTurkey: what?
MutantTurkey	just saying hi
toxic_devil	MutantTurkey: oh
MutantTurkey	Does anyone here use slackware?
MutantTurkey	o/ is a person waving the o is his head, the / his arm.
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toxic_devil	MutantTurkey: i don't know
MutantTurkey	ah
toxic_devil	MutantTurkey: You see KDE 4.6 ??
toxic_devil	It's
toxic_devil	It"s
toxic_devil	this is fucking DE
MutantTurkey	I have not seen it
MutantTurkey	I have seen KDE 4.5 a whil e ago
toxic_devil	KDE 4.6
toxic_devil	Is not DE
toxic_devil	It Is bug report
toxic_devil	)))
MutantTurkey	hahaha
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*Strangelv ponders pondering the procticality of forking TDE or even KDE 4 avay from Qt altogether, but lacks sufficiently detailed knowledge. He's also falling asleep.
samelian	actually qt is very nice framework
Strangelv	"Qt3 or Qt4
samelian	i like both of them
Strangelv	Are you working ot TQt?
samelian	the concepts are pretty similar
*Strangelv is mostly familiar with people here complaining about how stripped down Qt4 is
samelian	nope, only kb9vqf working on tqt
samelian	my tasks are cmake port and developing upower interface
Strangelv	"My task is bottlenecked by find out where the art is, and I've been sidetracked by what might qualify as my day job
edakiri	Strangelv: i pondered that.  kb9vqfand someone ( samelian?) said it were clearly infeasible without great manpower.
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MutantTurkey	hey
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same_	kb9vqf: http://www.thel.ro/upower/classUPower_1_1TClient.html
same_	so far, I can suspend() and get upower properties
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kb9vqf	Nice!
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kb9vqf	I tracked down the popup menu mouse event issue after much hassle and heartache
kb9vqf	Seems that Qt4 did this:
kb9vqf	if ((windowType() == Qt::Popup) &amp;&amp; rect().contains(pos) &amp;&amp; 0)
kb9vqf	Note the &amp;&amp; 0
kb9vqf	A nice undocumented change
kb9vqf	:-P
kb9vqf	See why I hate Qt4?
kb9vqf	It took 30 lines of code to fix that
kb9vqf	In TQt that is
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: Do you think Nokia is smart enough to keep the Qt4 -&gt; Qt5 change minimal?
Xu_R	makes me wonder, given the community response to the Qt3 -&gt; Qt4 change
kb9vqf	Dunno
kb9vqf	I think it depends on their new cell phones
kb9vqf	And their requirements
*kb9vqf does NOT trust Nokia
kb9vqf	Not after Qt4 :)
kb9vqf	On the plus side, we should have a few years to make TQt work with Qt5
kb9vqf	If they offer a preview for a while like they did with Qt4
kb9vqf	That is waaayyy in the future I hope :)
Xu_R	that would be a nice future indeed
Xu_R	kb9vqf: when you mean new cell phones, i'm guessing meego, right?
kb9vqf	Whatever the latest craze is
kb9vqf	At some point they will go "Oh no, Qt doesn't support our competitor's latest input gestures"
kb9vqf	"Let's completely change Qt again!"
kb9vqf	:-P
*kb9vqf can be rather cynical
kb9vqf	Seriously though, I don't know what the Qt5 trigger will be
kb9vqf	All I know is that it is likely to happen sometime in the future
kb9vqf	And it'll probably be based on some tech fad (Qt4 was transparent widgets AFAIK)
kb9vqf	That and Nokia not wanting to maintain a lot of the Qt3 features
Xu_R	lol
Xu_R	it's like they're oblivious to all the community hatred around them.
same_	maybe qt will follow linux kernel versioning style :)
samelian	i mean, will remain qt 4.x.x
samelian	like kernel 2.6.x
Xu_R	samelian: the way they're throwing out releases it's only a matter of time before they hit 5.0
samelian	will see
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samelian	however, qt4 is over qt3 in networking support
samelian	also some integrated features like webkit and dbus
samelian	kb9vqf: what is "&amp;&amp; 0"?
samelian	seems useless condition
samelian	because return always false
samelian	kb9vqf: how we will integrate libkupower to kdelibs?
samelian	we will create a directory named "backend"?
Space_Man	&lt;samelian&gt; kb9vqf: what is "&amp;&amp; 0"?
Space_Man	I agree
Space_Man	but I'm not much of a coder
K`zan	Binary and with zero?  SWAG :)
K`zan	Essentially would be setting whatever to zero.
K`zan	= 0 would make more sense if that is what it is doing...
K`zan	Ah, one gotta love show off programmers :-).
*K`zan refuses to ever admit I was ever one of those ;-).
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kb9vqf	samelian: exactly
kb9vqf	They shut down that conditional
kb9vqf	Without documenting the change or bothering to remove it completely!!
samelian	hehe
kb9vqf	kdelibs/tdevices/backend/tupower
samelian	if you don't pay enough attention, you can miss this kind of changes
kb9vqf	Oh yes
kb9vqf	Two days
kb9vqf	:-P
samelian	wow
kb9vqf	It was VERy hard to trace
kb9vqf	That conditional is buried within the event handler core
samelian	kb9vqf: why tdevices?
kb9vqf	Hang on
kb9vqf	Let's change that to:
samelian	i think something like this:
kb9vqf	kdelibs/tcomputer/backend/tupower
kb9vqf	http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/Developers/TUComputerAPI
samelian	kdelibs/backends/{upower,udev,networkmanager,sound}, etc
kb9vqf	OK
samelian	you agree with me?
kb9vqf	Well, not really
kb9vqf	I would like to keep the hardware stuff in its own directory
kb9vqf	Otherwise kdelibs will become a mess, fast
samelian	i think backend will be the layer between trinity and 3rd party stuff
kb9vqf	You'll have to move some other folders around
kb9vqf	libkrandr, etc.
kb9vqf	Also, I'm not sure
kb9vqf	kdelibs itself is one big interface to 3rd party stuff
kb9vqf	How about kdelibs/hardware/
kb9vqf	kdelibs/hardware/backends
kb9vqf	kdelibs/hardware/frontends
samelian	depends what meaning "hardware"
samelian	networkmanager is not hardware
kb9vqf	Yes it is
kb9vqf	Well, it interfaces to the network card
samelian	sort of, but not exactly
kb9vqf	so kdelibs/devices/backends
kb9vqf	and kdelibs/devices/frontends
samelian	so, backends will be direct link to 3rd party stuff
samelian	and frontend the API for trinity developers, right?
samelian	so the layers will be:P
samelian	:
samelian	application -&gt; frondend -&gt; backend -&gt; 3rd party
samelian	in upower case will be:
samelian	kpowersave -&gt; frontend -&gt; backend -&gt; dbus
samelian	or
samelian	kpowersave -&gt; frontend -&gt; backend -&gt; dbus -&gt; upower
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	Exactly
kb9vqf	We'll move libkrandr to devices/frontends
samelian	sound logical to me
kb9vqf	Since that library is the public interfaces to XRandR
samelian	xrandr cannot be accesed via dbus?
kb9vqf	No
kb9vqf	Direct Xorg calls only
samelian	i see
kb9vqf	It's a very low level API
kb9vqf	:)
samelian	ok, not matter
samelian	for high level developer no matter anyway
kb9vqf	frontends contains all libraries that are supposed to be used in Trinity applications
kb9vqf	backends should not be used outside of the frontend librariew
kb9vqf	libraries
kb9vqf	It might be a good idea to make the backend classes private
samelian	sure, because its API can be changed
kb9vqf	And then friend the frontend libraries
samelian	hmm, will be complicated
samelian	we can include something like this:
samelian	#ifndef BACKEND_DEVELOPER
kb9vqf	Sure
kb9vqf	Like the old acknowleding the DBUS API is unstable
samelian	#error this interface should be used just be backed developers
samelian	yes
kb9vqf	Works for me!
kb9vqf	And we'll just reject applications that set BACKEND_DEVELOPER ;-
kb9vqf	;-)
samelian	hehe
samelian	yes
kb9vqf	More Qt4 fun....CoordinateMode::CoordDevice (the default CoordinateMode) is just gone.  No replacement, and the Qt4 replacement current functions utilize CoordinateMode::CoordPainter instead.
Xu_R	o_o
Xu_R	it's like they threw all this stuff in the trash because it didn't look nice.
kb9vqf	Hehe
kb9vqf	Lots of fun breakage in scrolling views because of that
kb9vqf	I'm reimplementing it as usual in TQt....
samelian	sometime I think that maybe is better to enhance Qt3 and that's all
kb9vqf	No
kb9vqf	The Qt4 graphics engine is better
kb9vqf	But has fewer features
samelian	maybe these enhacements can be backported to qt3
kb9vqf	No, not really
kb9vqf	The graphics engine is a complete rewrite
samelian	aha, i do not dig so deep
kb9vqf	I actually have kdesktop, kicker etc. running under Qt4 with Tqt
kb9vqf	I'm just trying to stamp out the remaining painting problems
kb9vqf	Believe it or not, over my VNC connection it actually has pretty good performance
kb9vqf	Comparable to Qt3 over VNC
Xu_R	nice.
kb9vqf	So I think the slow bloat is actually in KDE4 itself, not Qt4
kb9vqf	Just a hunch :-)
Xu_R	probably
samelian	this is my impression too
samelian	because skype and qt creator are pretty fast
*kb9vqf is glad he is not alone in that impression
kb9vqf	Ahh, KDE4....the ugly stepsister of the KDE series
kb9vqf	:)
samelian	haha
samelian	i do not used it more 10 minutes
kb9vqf	I struggled with it for a few days
kb9vqf	Then gave up
kb9vqf	I wan't getting any work done
samelian	i hope that more developers wil join to trinity team after we modernize background
kb9vqf	I hope so too
kb9vqf	Hence the Qt4 interface
samelian	i enjoy very much programming upower interface
kb9vqf	Glad to hear it :)
kb9vqf	I also enjoyed the krandr interface back when
kb9vqf	TQt....not so much
kb9vqf	It's massive
samelian	hehe
samelian	massive task become borring
kb9vqf	Now I need a way to reverse the Qt4 deviceTransform() matrix
kb9vqf	Of course, being Qt4, the didn't provide an easy way
kb9vqf	Grrrr
samelian	i have this impression making cmake
samelian	copy/paste, copy/paste, ....
samelian	borring
kb9vqf	Hehe
kb9vqf	But quite necessary
Xu_R	you know, it makes me wonder, did they strip down Qt4 to make the library smaller? O_o
samelian	yes, it is
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	Smaller and easier for them to maintain
samelian	qt4 are actually prety well modularized
Xu_R	ah.
Xu_R	well, then KDE4 made Qt4 look like crap.
kb9vqf	Qt4 is a nice library
samelian	indeed
kb9vqf	It's just not as powerful as Qt3 was
kb9vqf	In the core areas
samelian	i like qt4 because I can write servers with it
kb9vqf	It's obviously designed for cell phones on the UI end as well
kb9vqf	So kind of an odd mix
samelian	without gui legacy
Xu_R	lol
Xu_R	i see.
kb9vqf	The ONLY problem I have with Qt3 is that it is not LGPL
samelian	few years ago I write an tiff/faxview with qt3
samelian	maybe I will revive it
kb9vqf	TQt port it :)
samelian	sure, is written in pure qt
samelian	http://qfaxreader.sourceforge.net/
kb9vqf	Neat!
samelian	kfax was not enough when I used faxes, a century ago :)
kb9vqf	Hehe
kb9vqf	The fax macine just....won't....die.
Xu_R	xD
samelian	i think I will write some kparts
samelian	then a shell similar to okular
kb9vqf	Sometime after TQt for Qt4 is done we will need to replace KHTML's innards with WebKit
samelian	but will be available for qt4 only, i guess
kb9vqf	Right
kb9vqf	That's the main reason for the Qt4 interface actually
kb9vqf	Is to gain acces to peripheral classes like that
kb9vqf	They added power in those areas, but removed it in the core
kb9vqf	:-P
kb9vqf	Like I said, they seem to have tailored it for their cell phones and apps
kb9vqf	samelian: OK, I'm getting fed up
kb9vqf	You have Qt4 experience, right?
samelian	more or less :)
kb9vqf	How in the world can I reverse the QPainter device mapping?!??
samelian	i wrote few apps with qt4
kb9vqf	I need to undo a QTransform that utilized QPainter::deviceTransform()
kb9vqf	So I need to go from device coordinates to painter coordinates
samelian	hmm, i do not reach so low level
kb9vqf	Well, the lower levels is where much of the power is missing
kb9vqf	That might explain why some developers don't miss Qt3
kb9vqf	Just a thought :)
kb9vqf	I think I may have it...
kb9vqf	There is a poorly documented inverted() function that MAY do what I need for 2D work only
kb9vqf	Time will tell :)
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Piki	hi
Xu_R	kb9vqf: sorry, going to disturb this channel for a few moments
Xu_R	#startmeeting Test Meetbot
[lindaemon]	Meeting started Mon Feb  7 01:50:54 2011 UTC.  The chair is Xu_R. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
[lindaemon]	Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
Xu_R	test test
Xu_R	#endmeeting
*kb9vqf notes that you can use a test channel
kb9vqf	e.g. #0987970345345
Xu_R	lol.
Xu_R	(trillian is fking up on my comp)
Xu_R	!deletemeeting #trinity-desktop freenode false
[lindaemon]	Xu_R: Deleted: meeting on (#trinity-desktop, freenode).
Xu_R	ok, done disturbing here
Xu_R	:P
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Piki	that was... disturbing. isn't trillian a proprietary win-only client? and why do we need a meeting? lol (j/k on the meeting)
Xu_R	Piki: .-.
Xu_R	and yes
<kick channel="#trinity-desktop" nick="kb9vqf" time="2011-02-07T01:31:00Z">[lindaemon]</kick>
*[lindaemon] has joined #trinity-desktop
Xu_R	...
Xu_R	lemme get it out. lol.
*[lindaemon] has left #trinity-desktop
kb9vqf	Hehe
kb9vqf	One bot is bad enough
kb9vqf	:)
Xu_R	XD
Xu_R	it's the war of the bots! XD
kb9vqf	Except tbottu has chanop
Piki	tbottu: what is [lindaemon]?
tbottu	Piki: Sorry, I've no idea what '[lindaemon]' is.
kb9vqf	tbottu: what is lindaemon
tbottu	kb9vqf: hmm... I think lindaemon is a nasty competitor bot, rarely heard since I banished it from the solar system
Xu_R	kb9vqf: pfft who cares about ops. xD
kb9vqf	kickban anyone? XD
kb9vqf	j/k
Xu_R	LOL, and then it crashes my server. xD
Xu_R	kb9vqf: do not think of trying that XD
kb9vqf	I'm not evil :)
Xu_R	lol
Xu_R	riggghhhhhhhtttttttt.... xD
Piki	999!
*kb9vqf uses Darth Vader voice
Xu_R	xD
Piki	Use the Source young Xu_R! Use the Source!
Xu_R	go, shoo, back to your tqt porting! i've got chem and precal hw to finish ;)
kb9vqf	Not on my channel you don't ;-)
*kb9vqf runs and hides
Xu_R	kb9vqf: yes, go, run RUNNNN XD or I'll go azn on you. :P
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<mode channel="#trinity-desktop" nick="kb9vqf" time="2011-02-07T02:56:11Z">+o tbottu </mode>
MutantTurkey	o/
Piki	a/
Piki	e/
Piki	i/
Piki	u/
MutantTurkey	whats up
Piki	not much
Piki	just adding in the rest of the vowels
Piki	;-)
Piki	finally seeing my g/f ^.^
Piki	first time in many months
Piki	we're both excited
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<mode channel="#trinity-desktop" nick="kb9vqf" time="2011-02-07T04:08:52Z">+o tbottu </mode>
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: so i am having trouble with this side bar
kb9vqf	OK
kb9vqf	What kind of trouble?
MutantTurkey	i'll get some help from samelian tomorrow though
MutantTurkey	I just don't know how to align it properly, He surely knows how
kb9vqf	He probably knows more than I do about that ;-)
MutantTurkey	:-P probably
kb9vqf	I'm C/C++/php/etc.
MutantTurkey	anyway I've got class tomorrow at 9am so i gotta sleepy
MutantTurkey	I am all C i don't know anything else.
kb9vqf	I just never got into CSS
MutantTurkey	enough scripting, sed, awk to get around too
MutantTurkey	anyway cya round
kb9vqf	ttyl
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Piki	hi
*MutantTurkey has joined #trinity-desktop
MutantTurkey	o/
Piki	a/
Piki	e/
Piki	i/
Piki	u/
Piki	y/ too
Piki	anyway, must go, need to get a hair cut, can't be looking like a scruffy hippy for my g/f tomorrow ;-)
MutantTurkey	:)
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Xu_R|School	anyone alive here? :P
Xu_R|School	(never including me...)
Space_Man	hi Xu_R|School
Space_Man	:)
*Strangelv belatedly waves
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toxic_devil	hi all
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Piki	hi
*MutantTurkey has joined #trinity-desktop
MutantTurkey	o/ samelian?
Xu_R	hey MutantTurkey :D
Xu_R	how's the site design coming along?
MutantTurkey	well.
MutantTurkey	actually not at all
MutantTurkey	I have hit a major roadblock
MutantTurkey	I cannot figure out how to make a side bar like kb9vqf wanted
Xu_R	D:
MutantTurkey	yeah D:
Xu_R	oh noes...
MutantTurkey	I am waiting to talk to samelian, who has some css knowledge
MutantTurkey	you can see the current stuff online at my IP address.
Xu_R	ping same_
MutantTurkey	that is samelian?
same_	Xu_R: pong
MutantTurkey	currently: thttp://96.245.17.6/
MutantTurkey	http://96.245.17.6/
MutantTurkey	the front page is going to be fully reworked, mostly to show off 3.5.12  and have a screen shot
MutantTurkey	so a screen should would be welcome
Xu_R	:D
MutantTurkey	do you like the design so far/
MutantTurkey	ah. that expplains much
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: yes! yes I do! :D
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: hmm... why a sidebar? Is the top not enough?
MutantTurkey	excellent
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: there are more sub links, unless we should come up with a better place to put them
MutantTurkey	like, installation notes, CD images, bug tracking, SVN feed, project files, the roadmap nightly builds
Xu_R	ah. the side bar should be only a short-term solution unless we can make it fit in... because otherwise it kinda makes the site like the old one except with css.
MutantTurkey	maybe a second sub bar
MutantTurkey	not at all
Xu_R	the second sub bar sounds like a good idea.
MutantTurkey	more of a side bar like, http://archlinux.org
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: OH. I see. That works out then.
MutantTurkey	yes.
MutantTurkey	i would like a sub bar
MutantTurkey	maybe that is a good proposition
samelian	MutantTurkey: you can do this in two ways
samelian	position: absolute
samelian	or floating divs
MutantTurkey	which do you think is better?
MutantTurkey	i would like to have it best formatted for all size screens, large and small
MutantTurkey	that is my major concern
samelian	the right side can have fixed width
MutantTurkey	isn't fixed with to be avoided
samelian	MutantTurkey: http://www.barelyfitz.com/screencast/html-training/css/positioning/
MutantTurkey	is foxycode a frequent here?
MutantTurkey	Ricky Thompson
MutantTurkey	http://96.245.17.6/TODO.txt
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DarthPenguin	gn to all
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: what about this (sorry it is rather bad right now)      &lt;ul id="list"&gt;
MutantTurkey	&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net/" title="Package Database"&gt;Packages&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
MutantTurkey	&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="./" title="Community forums"&gt;Forums&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
MutantTurkey	&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="./wiki" title="Community documentation"&gt;Wiki&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
MutantTurkey	&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=ALL" title="Report and track bugs"&gt;Bugs&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
MutantTurkey	&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/" title="Web SVN Access"&gt;SVN&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
MutantTurkey	&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="./mailinglists" title="Mailing Lists"&gt;Mailing Lists&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
MutantTurkey	&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href="donate.php" title="Donate"&gt;Donate&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
MutantTurkey	&lt;/ul&gt;
MutantTurkey	oh sorry
MutantTurkey	D: wrong buffer
MutantTurkey	sorry for flooding
MutantTurkey	http://96.245.17.6/
MutantTurkey	i have tried to make a sub bar sort of
Xu_R	MutantTurkey:  not bad, not bad. :)
Xu_R	can we keep it to the right side, right under the main bar?
Xu_R	that way it seems to be in alignment.
MutantTurkey	i am not sure yet
MutantTurkey	it is quite ugly right now
MutantTurkey	but i am going to finish watching this movie i started earlier, then take another crack at it
Xu_R	good idea, go relax :)
MutantTurkey	alright ready to get cracking
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: check this out 96.245.17.6`
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: check this out 96.245.17.6
MutantTurkey	http://96.245.17.6/index.php
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: in php now? nice.
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	do you like the look
MutantTurkey	?
Xu_R	yes, indeeed.
MutantTurkey	i added the sub bar
Xu_R	the sub bar actually fits like that. good job :)
MutantTurkey	it is doing a weird problem, where it seems to not go all the way 100% width, but if i put -15px it fits D:
MutantTurkey	i'll ask samelian about that
MutantTurkey	but i think its very nice looking
Xu_R	-15 px lol
Xu_R	that is strange
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	i think it is getting pushed by something i cannot figure it out
MutantTurkey	i'll start looking now
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: fixed it :D 96.245.17.6/
MutantTurkey	no more -15px. it should be working well now
Xu_R	niceee
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	well.
MutantTurkey	enough for today :p
Xu_R	hehe. getting late.
MutantTurkey	indeed
MutantTurkey	quite tired
kb9vqf	Nice job!
kb9vqf	Can you add a "Screenshots" tab?
kb9vqf	Tomorrow that is :)
MutantTurkey	yes sir
MutantTurkey	trying to convert more of your pages also, I need a full list of all the pages, you said you left some out?
Xu_R	anyone wanna ping me tmrw like crazy around 1350 telling me to move my lazy butt and finish up trinity rpms? I've been procrastinating for a few days D:
MutantTurkey	D:
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Well, the other pages are dynamically generated
kb9vqf	I'll have to deal with those here
kb9vqf	Mailing lists and such
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: hmmm, but you could easily modify them to add the stylization right?
kb9vqf	Yes
MutantTurkey	right makes sense
MutantTurkey	okay
kb9vqf	But I can't go sending you the scripts that generate those pages ;-)
kb9vqf	Sensitive stuff there
Xu_R	lol oooh, what do we have here? :P
MutantTurkey	indeed.
kb9vqf	They're firewalled and on a different machine
kb9vqf	No hacking allowed :)
MutantTurkey	also i noticed your SVN patches list is generated fine, but should be reversed.
Xu_R	xD
kb9vqf	Yes, you mentioned that earlier
MutantTurkey	people like to see the most recent events rather than ones in 2008
MutantTurkey	oh okay good
kb9vqf	when you send over the new website files please remind me
MutantTurkey	right.
*kb9vqf has a terrible memory
MutantTurkey	I've got a todo going
kb9vqf	Great :)
MutantTurkey	http://96.245.17.6/TODO.txt
MutantTurkey	so I'll add that
kb9vqf	OK
kb9vqf	I'm going to put up the IRC logs as well at some point
MutantTurkey	excellent
MutantTurkey	you log them?
kb9vqf	That's tbottu's primary function
MutantTurkey	with tbottu right?
MutantTurkey	supybot?
kb9vqf	mozbot
MutantTurkey	D:
kb9vqf	So I can do cool things like this
kb9vqf	But 67
kb9vqf	Bug 67
tbottu	Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=67 cri, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESO WORKSFORME, Errors while installing kde 3.5
MutantTurkey	use supy bot they are really nice.
MutantTurkey	oh well
Xu_R	lol
MutantTurkey	supy can do stuff like this
MutantTurkey	!google blah blah blah
Xu_R	supybot also supports bugzilla, and there's also MeetBot :D
MutantTurkey	or !wiki blah blah
kb9vqf	Seems all my design decisions are suspect, hmmm? ;-)
MutantTurkey	!weather zipcode
MutantTurkey	!xkcd reference
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: I'm not bringing [lindaemon] in here for you to demonstrate
kb9vqf	Actually mozbot can do that stuff too
MutantTurkey	:D
Xu_R	kb9vqf resents that bot. xD
kb9vqf	I don't want to allow it too
kb9vqf	I don't want to allow it to
Xu_R	lol
MutantTurkey	one thing that i  think you should add is link headers
kb9vqf	In the USA we have very strict laws
MutantTurkey	because I'd like to know if the link is suspicious and such?
kb9vqf	Link headers?
MutantTurkey	like
MutantTurkey	for example
MutantTurkey	look at my link: http://google.com
MutantTurkey	(09:59:05 PM) phrik: Title: Google (at google.com)
kb9vqf	Would be nice, BUT:
kb9vqf	In the USA we have very strict laws
MutantTurkey	:[ i always found that handy
MutantTurkey	right... not in PA xD
kb9vqf	If it looks like my server is going after suspect content I can go to jail
kb9vqf	In an extreme case
MutantTurkey	ah
MutantTurkey	well lets avoid foolishness then and just stick with logging
kb9vqf	So, I don't want my servers going after outside content :)
MutantTurkey	word.
Xu_R	good idea.
MutantTurkey	anyway, I'm off to bed. more work to be done tomorrow.
kb9vqf	OK, thanks :)
MutantTurkey	i'm done class around 12:00 so I should be floating around and such periodically.
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: also, quick question, what web server do you use?
Xu_R	kb9vqf: does tbottu have a nice alarm function that allows it to ping me annoyingly around 1500? I'm back home by then
Xu_R	I need to stop procrastinating :P
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: A hardened Apache
kb9vqf	Xu_R: I don't know :-P
MutantTurkey	D: apache.
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: /me uses lighttpd ftw lol
MutantTurkey	apache seems to hate me no matter what i do to it.
kb9vqf	Hey, stop bashing :D
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: samsies
Xu_R	:D
kb9vqf	You just don't know how to configure it :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: lighttpd is great, youtue even uses it!
MutantTurkey	nice and light
Xu_R	lol
MutantTurkey	fast and really scalable and deals with traffic well
Xu_R	let's not gang up on poor kb9vqf now XD
MutantTurkey	relevent link http://www.lighttpd.net/
kb9vqf	Apache is non-negotiable
kb9vqf	I host lots of websites
kb9vqf	For many, many hears
kb9vqf	years that is
Xu_R	lol
MutantTurkey	I know, i was just mentioning it.
kb9vqf	OK
Xu_R	the experienced love apache :)
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	An old trusted friend
MutantTurkey	the greatest part about open source, is the different options
Xu_R	choices :D
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: old trusted friend? my PIII.
MutantTurkey	that baby is still chuggin along perfectly.
*kb9vqf has a PII
Xu_R	XD
kb9vqf	Of course I tend to use my 4 core Opteron instead :)
Xu_R	woah, I beat all of you then?
Xu_R	I have a pentium that still boots into win98 xD
MutantTurkey	D: 4 core opteron
MutantTurkey	sounds magical
Xu_R	that i need to throw away...sooner...or...later (parents are starting to complain)
kb9vqf	Does having a 486SX chip laying around count?  :-P
MutantTurkey	i have a intel atom ._.
MutantTurkey	the joke of the CPU world.
Xu_R	true that.
kb9vqf	yuck
kb9vqf	Upgrade my man!
MutantTurkey	@30W Peak i don't complain though.
kb9vqf	I guess
kb9vqf	:-P
Xu_R	wow.
MutantTurkey	exactly
Xu_R	lol.
MutantTurkey	i figure i could run 10 boxes for the same as a regular box.
kb9vqf	Yeah, but nothing beats an Opteron for raw FLOPS
MutantTurkey	i mean the only reason it is 30 not around 20ish is because i have a hard drive finally, used to use a CF (slot on board) as my main board
MutantTurkey	some of those OMAP boards are coming really close
MutantTurkey	well, not a single one, but at 5W they are pretty powerful.
kb9vqf	Yes, FLOPS/Watt the're great
MutantTurkey	mhm :D
MutantTurkey	intel atom has very low computational power
MutantTurkey	it does very little
kb9vqf	But to make an equivalent machine would take a warehouse full :-)
kb9vqf	And uses very little power
kb9vqf	I dunno
kb9vqf	I have a Via fanless
kb9vqf	Never could get it to do very much
MutantTurkey	via is way better
MutantTurkey	ARM is where it is at
kb9vqf	Hey, maybe we need to see about building Trinity on ARM
kb9vqf	:)
MutantTurkey	this thing is a great server though!
kb9vqf	For basic tasks I'm sure
MutantTurkey	yes.
kb9vqf	Try hosting QuickBuild
Xu_R	hm... Trinity on ARM.
kb9vqf	;-)
MutantTurkey	home media server it is wonderful
MutantTurkey	what is quickbuild?
kb9vqf	http://quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: kb9vqf's version of launchpad
kb9vqf	Big power-hungry build farm
MutantTurkey	D:
*Xu_R shakes head at power-hungry
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: yeah the trinity website is quite slow sometimes.
kb9vqf	Like I said it's under a lot of load
kb9vqf	Lots of users
MutantTurkey	really? I am suprised but glad
MutantTurkey	you use one server for many domains though, correct?
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	But Trinity is by far the largest bandwidth hog
MutantTurkey	well that is excellent news
Xu_R	damn. getting more and more attention everyday
kb9vqf	The Wiki stats show some of that
kb9vqf	Thousands of hits
MutantTurkey	per day?
kb9vqf	Per month I think
Xu_R	it's even attracted the attention on opensuse-kde3 and opensuse-kde (for kde4)... so we're getting there.
MutantTurkey	that is good
kb9vqf	But those stats are per page
kb9vqf	:)
MutantTurkey	:) righ
Xu_R	however, I'm just going to put this out there that fedora-kde is ignoring this D:
kb9vqf	I'm sure
kb9vqf	Debian isn't too happy either
MutantTurkey	well then designing a fast, quick website is great.
kb9vqf	Because of the binary compatibility problem
MutantTurkey	whats the problem?
Xu_R	well, maybe if Debian helped us a bit, then it could be better.
MutantTurkey	and gah I really need to go to bed.
kb9vqf	I tend to break binary compatibility with each new release
Xu_R	the binary compat is a pain in the butt
MutantTurkey	night all.
kb9vqf	Right
Xu_R	nite MutantTurkey
kb9vqf	If we do that the project stalls and dies
*Xu_R sighs
kb9vqf	Oh well
Xu_R	we're walking a fine thread here.
kb9vqf	I don't understand the fuss personally
Xu_R	neither do i.
kb9vqf	So you rebuild the packge
kb9vqf	Big deal
Xu_R	yea.
Xu_R	according to #fedora-kde (lemme get logs...)
Xu_R	"mainly because you cannot install kde4 and kde3 on the same machine, and that we can't use /opt"
kb9vqf	Hmm
kb9vqf	Why can't they use /opt??!?!?
Xu_R	FHS packaging guidelines
kb9vqf	Fun
kb9vqf	So I can't create a Gnome app named kate
Xu_R	no major distro can /opt unless it is out of the main distro
Xu_R	kb9vqf: nope D:
kb9vqf	Because it will step on KDE
kb9vqf	Yuch
kb9vqf	That sounds like a nightmare
Xu_R	yea. that's why KDE3 isn't in openSUSE repositories (it's in a subproject outside the main)
kb9vqf	Kind of like a giant polluted namespace
Xu_R	exactly.
*kb9vqf shakes his head
kb9vqf	I thought Linux was about flexibility and good design
Xu_R	Mandriva tried to do both, but then they ended up crashing with each other and making 2008.1 a failure-ish.
kb9vqf	That sounds like BAD design
Xu_R	kb9vqf: makes me wonder, who made up these rules?! .-.
kb9vqf	KDE e.V?
kb9vqf	j/k
Xu_R	LOL, that'd be terrible
Xu_R	hmm...
Xu_R	oh, wait. the major distros.
kb9vqf	Actually, I thought (once upon a time) /opt was recommended
Xu_R	for local software that the user compiles himself/herself
*kb9vqf wishes that he had the guidelines handy
Xu_R	that ... I forget the rest
Xu_R	I know it's like /usr/local, but for special purposes...
kb9vqf	http://www.linuxtopia.org/online_books/linux_beginner_books/linux_filesystem/opt.html
kb9vqf	Third party software
Xu_R	hey, I just opened that! XD
Xu_R	ah, right.
Xu_R	when they include it as part of the main repositories
Xu_R	they consider that default installation.
kb9vqf	Huh?
Xu_R	(bah packaging rules)
kb9vqf	Default is default
kb9vqf	Not available
kb9vqf	Oh well
*kb9vqf doesn't really care
kb9vqf	If I wanted to then I could make a distribution that prevents KDE4
Xu_R	yea... it's a loop of crap that ends up with crap. :P
*kb9vqf gets and evil grin
Xu_R	hehehe
kb9vqf	Distro rule #1: No default widgets over &lt;x&gt; size
Xu_R	LOL
kb9vqf	If it's big enough to be pressed with a big fat greasy finger then it's too big to be used on a desktop
kb9vqf	:-P
Xu_R	XD
Xu_R	lmao
Xu_R	this already sounds like a perfect nokia phone. xD
kb9vqf	Rule #2: If you have to go more than three levels deep to access a function your software is banned
kb9vqf	:)
*Xu_R is roflmao'ing atm....
kb9vqf	Good, good
Xu_R	lol!
*kb9vqf needs to get back to work
kb9vqf	And stop the comedy show
Xu_R	okees. although it's 2220, it's kinda late :-\
kb9vqf	Yeah
kb9vqf	gn
Xu_R	don't worry, I gotta finish hw too. :P
Xu_R	nite :)
<mode channel="#trinity-desktop" nick="tbottu" time="2011-02-08T03:41:16Z">+o kb9vqf </mode>
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toxic_devil	ku ku
toxic_devil	&#1072;&#1091;&#1091;&#1091;&#1091;&#1091;&#1091;&#1091;&#1091;
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toxic_devil	samelian: &#1074;&#1086;&#1079;&#1084;&#1086;&#1078;&#1085;&#1086; &#1082; &#1074;&#1072;&#1084; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1075;&#1088;&#1072;&#1084;&#1084;&#1080;&#1089;&#1090;&#1099; &#1073;&#1091;&#1076;&#1091;&#1090; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1093;&#1086;&#1076;&#1080;&#1090;&#1100;, &#1074;&#1099; &#1080;&#1084; &#1086;&#1073;&#1100;&#1103;&#1089;&#1085;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077; &#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1076;&#1072; &#1082;&#1072;&#1082;
Revan199	iconv -f utf-8 -t koi8-r - PROFIT
kb9vqf	??
Revan199	kb9vqf: I'm using KOI8-R encoding in IRC (exactly, XMPP transport do)
kb9vqf	Oh, OK
Revan199	and toxic_devil wrote his message in UTF-8
kb9vqf	Just wanted to make sure you weren't a spam bot or something :)
Revan199	kb9vqf: ah =)
Revan199	3.5.1210/03/2010 :o
kb9vqf	What's wrong with that?
kb9vqf	We're on an approximately 6 month long release cycle
kb9vqf	It may need to be lengthened some IMHO
kb9vqf	To ensure a high quality release
Revan199	it like propietary model %(
Revan199	%)*
kb9vqf	?
Revan199	also interested why Trinity 3*
Revan199	why not 1.5.12?
kb9vqf	You think the releases are too fast?
kb9vqf	3.* is just to continue the KDE series numbers
kb9vqf	Believe it or not a lot of code checks for &gt;3.5
kb9vqf	&gt;=3.5.x that is
kb9vqf	Also, users would get confused if we switched from version 3 to version 1
*kb9vqf is interested in your opinion of the release cycle though
Revan199	kb9vqf: maybe one month?
kb9vqf	There is no way we can generate releases that often without introducing major bugs at each release
kb9vqf	Or allowing the software to stagnate
Revan199	2 months?
kb9vqf	Still very tight
kb9vqf	It usually takes me 2 months just to build the Ubuntu and Debian packages
kb9vqf	Lots of software
kb9vqf	Lots of places where things can break
kb9vqf	We need to make each release ultra stable
kb9vqf	To differentiate this project from KDE
kb9vqf	IMO
kb9vqf	Otherwise we will experience the same backlash
kb9vqf	"Trinity DE ate my cat and now I love Gnome instead" ;-)
Revan199	kb9vqf: what?
kb9vqf	If users encounter bugs they tend to switch to a more stable desktop
kb9vqf	That's my experience
kb9vqf	If we shorten the release cycle too much we will introduce lots of bugs
kb9vqf	Simply due to the fact that no testing can occur within that short of a time frame
samelian	we can release maintenance releases
kb9vqf	Yes
Revan199	http://translate.google.ru/translate?js=n&amp;prev=_t&amp;hl=ru&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;layout=2&amp;eotf=1&amp;sl=ru&amp;tl=en&amp;u=http%3A%2F%2Flinuxforum.ru%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fid%3D6838 my opinion (9/22/2010) about Trinity
kb9vqf	Those I could see being released much faster
kb9vqf	Revan199: Thanks
kb9vqf	Also, there is a very good example of why a fast release cycle is bad
kb9vqf	Those Ubuntu icos snuck in
kb9vqf	*icons
kb9vqf	They are NOT supposed to be there
kb9vqf	But they were not caught until after the release was already made
kb9vqf	I was rushing with the Debian packages
kb9vqf	And it shows :-(
kb9vqf	I would really like someone else to take over Debian packaging
Revan199	do you know about Pardus Corporate2?
Revan199	not me :-D
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	I have not used it
Revan199	my Mobile AMD Athlon 64 3400+ can't
kb9vqf	You can use QuickBuild
kb9vqf	:)
*kb9vqf digresses
kb9vqf	I did hear about Pardus on the mailing list
Revan199	3 hours for kernel
kb9vqf	I just need someone to upload packages to the build system
Revan199	I think that there is a good idea to cooperate with them
kb9vqf	Maintain the packaging, etc.
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	They use Trinity, correct?
Revan199	nope
kb9vqf	Hmmm
Revan199	they use KDE3 with patches
Revan199	own patches
kb9vqf	Trinity contains a lot of patches from various distros
kb9vqf	I would not mind incorporating theoirs
kb9vqf	*theirs
kb9vqf	However, patching may not be straightforward any more
kb9vqf	The Trinity codebase has already diverged significantly from KDE3.5.10
kb9vqf	Trinity has features that are not available in any other KDE3 maintinance series
kb9vqf	Functionality has been moved into core libraries
kb9vqf	new core libraries that is
kb9vqf	I am tempted to make the next release 3.5.6
kb9vqf	To emphasize the API changes
kb9vqf	revan199: If I could offload Debian/Ubuntu packaging to another group I would be willing to shorten the release cycle some
kb9vqf	I don't know if you know of anyone who might want to take over :)
Xu_R	kb9vqf: you mean 3.6 :P
kb9vqf	Yes I do
kb9vqf	Sorry
kb9vqf	3.6.0
Revan199	kb9vqf: I don't
kb9vqf	OK
kb9vqf	Just thought I'd ask
kb9vqf	:)
Revan199	kb9vqf: maybe, someone in debian-kde?
kb9vqf	They don't like my API/ABI changes from release to release
kb9vqf	But without them the project will die
kb9vqf	Linux changes
kb9vqf	And Trinity must change as well
kb9vqf	Maybe after 3.6.0 they will look at it again
kb9vqf	But we have a lot of work to do before we can declare kdelibs as stable and unchanging
Revan199	what TDE thinks about HAL? =)
kb9vqf	We want HAL gone!
kb9vqf	samelian is working on a nice replacement
kb9vqf	It will eventually follow this
kb9vqf	http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/save/Developers/KPowerAPI
Revan199	Bad Request: GET denied for save
kb9vqf	This is one reason we can't stabilize the kdelibs API yet :)
*Xu_R kicks HAL out of the installation with a pointy boot
kb9vqf	http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/Developers/KPowerAPI
kb9vqf	Wrong URL, sorry
*kb9vqf hates Firefox autocomplete from time to time
Xu_R	hehe
kb9vqf	Somehow Firefox thinks I saved the page more than I viewed it (???)
Xu_R	lol
kb9vqf	Honestly I'm thinking we need to block the next release on these two items:
kb9vqf	1. CMake
kb9vqf	2. HAL
kb9vqf	samelian ^^
kb9vqf	Automake is a big, big problem
kb9vqf	And HAL is not available anymore on several distros
samelian	i think cmake will not be stable for next few months
samelian	and hal replacement is pretty big change too
kb9vqf	Yes, but I don't want to release yet another buggy release
*kb9vqf is not sure
kb9vqf	All I know is that Trinity won't even build under Ubuntu without CMake
kb9vqf	And Gentoo, and RedHat
kb9vqf	:-P
kb9vqf	We have to block on CMake
kb9vqf	HAL is not as important as CMake is
Revan199	kb9vqf: what the problem with CMake and Ubuntu?
kb9vqf	Actually it's a problem with Automake and Ubuntu
kb9vqf	CMake works just fine under Ubuntu
kb9vqf	But Trinity does not have full support for CMake yet
kb9vqf	I think I will have to wait for full CMake support before I can release the next version of Trinity
kb9vqf	Which means that I will probably be helping with that :-P
*kb9vqf does not look forward to it
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kb9vqf	samelian ^^
kb9vqf	You may have to give me a crash course in CMake in the next few weeks
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	Even better, could you put your porting process on the Wiki?
samelian	sure
kb9vqf	Step-by-step instructions for taking the Automake file and creating a CMake file from it?
kb9vqf	Thanks :)
*kb9vqf suggests http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/Developers/CMakeConversionProcess
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DarthPenguin	ok going for a while bbl
tbottu	Trinity web services going offline for routine maintinance.  Estimated service restoration date 02/09/2011.
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Xu_R	oh dear. net splits... again.
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toxic_devil	hi all
kb9vqf	hello
kb9vqf	Any new programmers to help with CMake? ;-)
toxic_devil	kb9vqf: to you no one came? "(((
kb9vqf	I did not see anyone
kb9vqf	Or they did not announce themselves
toxic_devil	kb9vqf: I spoke yesterday with many programmers, but probably not enough (((
kb9vqf	OK
*kb9vqf will wait patiently
kb9vqf	samelian is supposed to be putting a general Automake-to-CMake porting guide on the Wiki
kb9vqf	That may help some
kb9vqf	I wonder where MutantTurkey ran off to?
kb9vqf	The new website may help as well ;-)
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toxic_devil	kb9vqf: hm
toxic_devil	kb9vqf: I try to do anything, but it does not work (((
kb9vqf	??
toxic_devil	kb9vqf: They tell me that I need to learn to program (((
kb9vqf	Oh, OK :-P
toxic_devil	kb9vqf: I never learn this ((
kb9vqf	I know that KDE4 itself is also very short on developers
kb9vqf	I wonder if this is just a result of the bad global economy
kb9vqf	People don't have as much spare time any more
toxic_devil	kb9vqf: is not the problem
kb9vqf	I was speaking in general terms, not just about you ;-)
kb9vqf	Sorry
kb9vqf	toxic_devil: You know, CMake porting is supposed to be somewhat easy
kb9vqf	Not like programming
kb9vqf	When samelian gets the Wiki page up maybe you can look at it?
kb9vqf	I don't know if you have the time though
toxic_devil	kb9vqf: I will be one of the first who will see it
kb9vqf	OK
kb9vqf	Sounds great!
kb9vqf	:)
Piki	seems like everyone who mentions an image is trying to send me that image... kinda wandering why?
kb9vqf	?
samelian	kb9vqf: as you noticed, my english is not very well, so my cmake documentation will be like a tutorial
kb9vqf	That's perfect
kb9vqf	I can clean up the English
kb9vqf	But I don't know how to port to CMake myself
kb9vqf	That's why you have to write the basic process first
samelian	i create some macros which make this process really easy
kb9vqf	Even better :)
toxic_devil	samelian: hi
samelian	I started the article
samelian	http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/Developers/CMakeConversionProcess
Piki	kb9vqf: every time i see mention of an image in irc, i seem to get a DCC send request from that person for that image
kb9vqf	Piki: On this channel or others?
samelian	now I will add basic usage of these macros, syntax and formatting rules
*kb9vqf wants to know if he set something up wrong...again....
Piki	kb9vqf: every channel
kb9vqf	Piki: Konversation or all clients
kb9vqf	?
Piki	kb9vqf: kvirc, haven't gotten konversation fixed yet
kb9vqf	OK, just wanted to make sure it wasn't my problem ;-)
*kb9vqf has not gotten any DCC requests
Piki	kb9vqf: it's mostly this channel, nobody ever visits #arklinux-devel, and #arklinux is slow, but both #arklinux and this channel do it when i see an image
Piki	i don't think there's a way to set a channel to do that anyway ;-)
Piki	and the send requests aren't from tbottu
kb9vqf	No, I don't think so either
kb9vqf	Strange
Piki	but from the user that mentions the user
kb9vqf	I wonder if it is a kvirc issue or not
kb9vqf	Probably not though
Piki	and it isn't the same nick all the time, just whoever mentions the image
kb9vqf	DCC requests are sender-initiated IIRC
kb9vqf	Someone may have a buggy client
samelian	argh... I hate wiki :)
kb9vqf	That's not good :(
Piki	kb9vqf: i doubt it's kivrc, this didn't happen a couple weeks ago when i last reinstalled ark
samelian	it's too hard to formatiing
samelian	kb9vqf: I will post my tutorial on forum
kb9vqf	What are you trying to do?
samelian	right now i want to paste a code
kb9vqf	And there are no code blocks
kb9vqf	I wish FOSWiki would fix that
samelian	ah, nice, I will use plain wiki markers
kb9vqf	There you go :)
kb9vqf	I just found that &lt;verbatim&gt; is supposed to work; that might be what you are using?
kb9vqf	http://www.lavrsen.dk/foswiki/bin/view/System/TextFormattingRules
samelian	wait, I will try
samelian	seems ok
kb9vqf	Hmm, my rules are different
kb9vqf	http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/System/TextFormattingRules
kb9vqf	I think I am missing the code extension
*kb9vqf goes to check
samelian	kb9vqf: the wiki is a pain in the ass :)
kb9vqf	Working on it; hang on
samelian	eating my &lt;/verbatim&gt; markers
kb9vqf	Ok, the wiki is gaining a lot of features very shortly
kb9vqf	Including talk pages :)
kb9vqf	And MediWiki syntax support
samelian	nice
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samelian	I think we need two distinct articles
samelian	how to build trinity using cmake
samelian	and how to port automake to cmake
samelian	Xu_R: ping
kb9vqf	Yes, I agree
kb9vqf	Two separate articles
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kb9vqf	samelian: Ues this for the second article: http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/Developers/HowToBuildTrinityWithCMake
kb9vqf	*Use
kb9vqf	Also, if you like MediWiki syntax you can try this: http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/System/EditSyntaxPlugin
Piki	kb9vqf: what are we doing using a wiki meant for medical work ;-)
kb9vqf	Hehe
kb9vqf	It's actually quite powerful
Piki	kb9vqf: can't say i've heard of it, but at some point if it is really that powerful, i may do a test instal
kb9vqf	FOSWiki?
Piki	mediwiki
kb9vqf	MediaWiki
Piki	and perhaps foswiki, but never liked the FOSwiki ui
kb9vqf	I was referring to FOSWiki being quite powerful ;-)
kb9vqf	MediaWiki does have some drawbacks IIRC
Piki	kb9vqf: hmm?
kb9vqf	I don't remember what they are right now ;-)
kb9vqf	Sorry
kb9vqf	My research into Wikis was done a long time ago
*samelian hate html WYSIWYG
Piki	kb9vqf: i've not used many wikis, but with the few i tried, i definitely like mediawiki best
kb9vqf	I have heard that from a few people now
Piki	samelian: have you tried CKEditor? or are you designing a new page at home?
samelian	CKEditor is bad as any other javascript WYSIWYG editor :)
Piki	kb9vqf: i'll have to try a bunch of wikis at some point, see what i would like the best, just not much time, and trying to use today to relax
Piki	samelian: it's not too bad, but i don't like html WYSIWYG eithre
Piki	CKEditor is one of the few ones that are "ok"
Piki	kb9vqf: wikipedia has a comparison of wiki software, if you want to look at it
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	That's what I used to select FOSWiki :)
kb9vqf	BTW I just ran an upgrade to the latest FOSWiki version
kb9vqf	samelian, If you run into problems let me know
samelian	ok
Strangelv	Does it helyp to say that FOSWiki is the second best wiki I've used?
Strangelv	I would definietly want to put some things from MediaWiki into it
samelian	nope :)
Strangelv	Probably number one is to save the markup, not html derived form teh markup
Strangelv	"Things get lost in shuffling back and forth
Strangelv	"especially ones related to formatting
Strangelv	Talk pages would be really helpful too
kb9vqf	Strangelv: Talk pages are now available :)
Piki	kb9vqf: if we have someone that can do the FOSwiki syntax, i can start adding some normal user documentation after a few more TDE releases (or at least, whenever i get an opening in my schedule)
Strangelv	Oh good
Strangelv	:: looks to see if the IRC archive is up since the last time he looked
kb9vqf	Not yet
*kb9vqf got sidetracked with the Wiki :-P
Strangelv	:: instead notices tha it's no longer announced on welcoming
kb9vqf	Should be
Strangelv	Wasn't announced when I reconnected
Strangelv	I don't have reliable logging in Konversation, and chat logs often contain excellent material to dump into talk pages
Strangelv	...Admittedly teh only wiki that I know wher ethis is done is behind an apache door dragon and an NDA
kb9vqf	It'll be up as soon as I get the HTML converter working ;-)
Strangelv	html converter?
Piki	kb9vqf: keep forgetting to mention this, but on Trinity home page -&gt; Download Project Files, 3.5.12 isn't listed, just 3.5.11, and some people will notice this link before they see the Official Releases section further down the nav bar
Piki	kb9vqf: mozbot doesn't have a plugin to do the chat logs in html?
kb9vqf	It does them in an XML format
kb9vqf	Which won't work in Firefox
Piki	hmm, if it accepts eggdrop-style tcl scripts, there are a couple eggdrop scripts, but i doubt mozbot would accept those
kb9vqf	Probably not
kb9vqf	It won't take long to get it working, I just haven't had the time today
kb9vqf	Anyone working on the Wiki may want to bookmark this: http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/System/TextFormattingRules
kb9vqf	Lots of good stuff in there
Strangelv	That's more informative that waht I'd been going by.  That should help, whenever I get back to work on hunting down files so I can figure out waht I need to wokr on
Piki	kb9vqf: dunno if this will help with the chat logs, but i found http://webscripts.softpedia.com/script/Snippets/ircLOG2HTML-10301.html
Piki	never used it myself, can't say how it works
kb9vqf	That's what I'll be using
*Strangelv doesn't see an equivalent to &lt;BR clear="all"/&gt;, but wonders if &lt;sticky/&gt; could help
kb9vqf	I have to massage the mozbot xml log to xchat style
Piki	kb9vqf: perhaps if i get a chance at some point, i can setup a mozbot in a private channel and create one that can skip xml and go directly to html
*Xu_R|School has joined #trinity-desktop
Piki	i'm not a coder, but a chance to learn
Xu_R|School	kb9vqf: nice touch with the tbottu welcome :)
kb9vqf	:)
*Xu_R|School has to endure another 40 minutes... helpppppppp xD
Piki	i didn't know tbottu had a welcome?
kb9vqf	Piki: Disconnect from the channel and you will see it when you reconnect
Xu_R|School	kb9vqf: it sends the message via /notice, right?
kb9vqf	Yes
*Piki has left #trinity-desktop
Xu_R|School	knew it. :D
*Piki has joined #trinity-desktop
kb9vqf	See it?
Piki	now i do
kb9vqf	I only added it yesterday
Piki	using /msg, i assume?
Xu_R|School	when we all netsplit lol
kb9vqf	/notify, actually
Xu_R|School	Piki: no, via /notice
kb9vqf	Yes, that
*kb9vqf did a thinko
Piki	lol i hope we don't get 100 people joining at once, tbottu may get confused
Xu_R|School	Piki: does 15 people count? XD
Xu_R|School	(net split last night caused mass d/c and r/c)
kb9vqf	Tbottu will notify each person in turn
tbottu	kb9vqf: Sorry, I've no idea what 'will notify each person in turn' might be.
samelian	kb9vqf: is any way to disable WYSIWYG on foswiki, for my account ?
kb9vqf	samelian: Maybe
kb9vqf	I was looking into that
Piki	kb9vqf: i'm talking within a couple seconds, and tbottusees quite a few of them joining at the same time
kb9vqf	Piki: Right
kb9vqf	he'll flood the server :-P
kb9vqf	There is still a split second between each join notice
kb9vqf	That's enough
Xu_R|School	wheeeeeeeee lol
Xu_R|School	o_O speaking of that, my bot just had a d/c
*Xu_R|School goes to fix stuff
kb9vqf	samelian: I can shut down the WYSIWY editor wiki-wide
kb9vqf	Do you want me to try that?
kb9vqf	I never use it anyway
kb9vqf	Seems more trouble than it is worth
samelian	maybe someone want to use it
kb9vqf	Yes, but it is corrupting the articles
kb9vqf	That's what bugs me
Xu_R|School	:-\
samelian	ok then, disable it
Xu_R|School	foswiki seems to have a way of screwing over people editing with its wysiwyg editor :P
samelian	hehe
Strangelv	I've been starting wtih WYSIWYG, then disable and fix things it messes up
Strangelv	"largely because until the formatting link that was pasted here a few minuets ago I couldn't get some things to wokr otherwise
Xu_R|School	:(
Strangelv	What I'd found on my own was a bit more limited
Strangelv	"at the moment I'm at wokr stoppage until I can get back ot hunting down files to find out what I need to work on
Xu_R|School	kb9vqf: are the servers still down?
kb9vqf	No
Strangelv	"Unless someone else finds firles for me to wokr on -- taht would help
kb9vqf	But one just failed
kb9vqf	Dunno why
kb9vqf	It happened like 30 seconds ago
Xu_R|School	o_O
Xu_R|School	I just tried to connect like 30 seconds ago
*Xu_R|School hides behind tbottu
*kb9vqf runs to check the rack
Piki	looks like the one holding the trinity page (just cause i like saying the obvious ;-))
*Xu_R|School doesn't try accessing it anymore from school
Xu_R|School	I don't feel like arguing with administration and central office on the basis of their windows logs calling using the internet "hacking"
samelian	haha
Xu_R|School	I've done it once, and I seriously hold a grudge against my school,
Xu_R|School	oh.
Xu_R|School	they also lied to me about their logs
Xu_R|School	they were like, we got reports that you were trying to use /etc/passwd
Xu_R|School	me: I have server logs here. My connection never made it to the server.
Xu_R|School	because your windows thing blocked me out of it and called it hacking.
*Xu_R|School facepalms them
Piki	Xu_R: i seriously hold a grudge against anyone that thinks that windows is the best thing in the entire universe and that linux is a virus ant that linux users are radicals who want to take over the world
Piki	and that seems like pretty much everyone these days
Piki	including my own mother, who always told me to fight for my own beliefs and is now trying to convince me to use windows
Xu_R|School	Piki: not necessarily.
Xu_R|School	i know people that are not computer geeks that hate windows ;)
Piki	Xu_R: i've only met one of those, everyone else seems to hate linux
kb9vqf	OK, server's back up
Piki	at least here in PA
kb9vqf	A lot of people think Linux is for geeks only
Xu_R|School	kb9vqf: loaded. nice :D
kb9vqf	WYSIWYG editor is disabled
kb9vqf	samelian ^^
samelian	thx
Strangelv	:: doesn't know anyone in PA who isn't a geek.  Yes, he doesn't know many people theer at all.  How did you guess?
samelian	now I must to learn foswiki syntax :)
Xu_R|School	lol Strangelv!
samelian	for explain cmake language, I must learn wiki language :))
Piki	kb9vqf: really? who would think that? linux is for braindead people who don't know a thing about computers! lol
kb9vqf	samelian: You can enable a different syntax if you want
kb9vqf	Piki: Well, KDE4 is not helping there :-P
samelian	cmake syntax, maybe? :)
kb9vqf	Neither is Gnome
kb9vqf	samelian: Nope, sorry :-P
samelian	haha
Xu_R|School	samelian: if it was cmake syntax, we'd have all this converted to cmake already :P
samelian	for sure
Piki	there was a point where linux was geeks-only, the normal user thing is recent
samelian	we convert anything to cmake :)
kb9vqf	samelian: Is it still eating your &lt;/verbatim&gt; tags?
samelian	wait
Piki	kb9vqf: yeah, GNOME never helped with that, and KDE4 certainly isn't helping either, i'm only surviving KDE4 because i've been a linux user for a few years ;-)
kb9vqf	The only things that kept me from going back to Windows were the $$$$$ needed and the same stupid interface on Windows 7
kb9vqf	:-P
samelian	seems fine now
Xu_R|School	samelian: :: goes on a cmake conversion rampage :: :P
kb9vqf	Great!
kb9vqf	I'll leave the WYSIWYG editor disabled then
Strangelv	"So we have someone who's actually using KDE4?  What's theer that's good to cannibalize after the Qt4 migration besides Konqueror?
Xu_R|School	kb9vqf: one reason i can use windows: gov license thanks to my dad :D
kb9vqf	KDevelop (maybe)
kb9vqf	Hehe
Xu_R|School	(well, gov discount &gt;:D)
kb9vqf	Yeah, but try that with the server editions
Xu_R|School	strangelv: everything. XD
Xu_R|School	kb9vqf: I have 2003 and 2008 R2 sitting on my desk at home, unused cause my dad got those for free somehow o.o
kb9vqf	Dunno how
kb9vqf	Those are NOT CHEAP
Xu_R|School	of course
Xu_R|School	did I mention UNUSED XD
kb9vqf	Hehe
kb9vqf	M$ is watching you...
Xu_R|School	XD
*kb9vqf gets evil grin agani
Piki	kb9vqf: i used to like the xp UI, it was the continued unstability and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ pushed me
Xu_R|School	screw MS
Xu_R|School	I have openSUSE XD
kb9vqf	Piki: Yup
kb9vqf	Same here
*Strangelv 's MS Windows migration path hit a dead end when he didn't like the XP licence. He has a still shrinkwrapped 2000 box he bought on EBay he wants to install to a kvm when he has time to figure it out
kb9vqf	I found KDE3.5.....then they dumped it :angry:
Piki	Strangelv: i don't like kde4, i only use it because i haven't managed to package TDE for my fave distro
Strangelv	"I've actually been using KDE singe KDE 2
kb9vqf	I've seen KDE2
Xu_R|School	kb9vqf: :(
kb9vqf	KDE3 is a vast improvement
Strangelv	"I understand that you probabyl idon't like it, just noting the potential usefulness of someone looking at it
Xu_R|School	I started with KDE3. :D
kb9vqf	KDE4 is worse than KDE2
kb9vqf	:)
Xu_R|School	kb9vqf: LOL ouch
Xu_R|School	pwnage
Strangelv	"I liked KDE 2 a lot more than GNOME
kb9vqf	I have used KDE2 actually
kb9vqf	So I can say that with some confidence
Xu_R|School	Strangelv: for me, I actually like GNOME 2 right now...
Strangelv	And KDE 2 didn't inspire me to want to throw my monitor across the room
Piki	i like windows vista better than GNOME
kb9vqf	I hate Gnome personally
samelian	I using kde from 1.3, if i correct remember
Strangelv	clap
*Xu_R|School claps for samelian :D
*Strangelv claps
kb9vqf	for me, KDE4 &lt; Windows 7 &lt; KDE2 &lt; Windows 2000 &lt; KDE3
kb9vqf	Gnome &lt; KDE2
Strangelv	"it's been too long since KDE 2 for me to evaluate it
Xu_R|School	me: KDE3 &gt; GNOME &gt; Windows 7 &gt; KDE4
Xu_R|School	lol.
kb9vqf	Heh
kb9vqf	I see a trend
samelian	kde2 was great for that times
Strangelv	"It was a gradual progression where it mostly kept improwving except for a now missing setting from Konqueror I desperately want back
Xu_R|School	kde4 is all the way at the bottom anyway XD
kb9vqf	Stragelv: Yep.  Then it took a nosedive for the worse
Piki	kde3 &gt; windows 7 &gt; windows vista &gt; gnome
Piki	gnome &gt; kde4
kb9vqf	On the bottom *again* :)
Xu_R|School	kb9vqf: BWAHAHAHAQHAHAHA XD
kb9vqf	Have you seen KDevelop 4?
*kb9vqf wants to know what ate all the useful toolbar icons
kb9vqf	:-P
Xu_R|School	ewww. KDevelop 4.
Piki	yep, i don't like gnome at all, but i don't hate it. i hate kde4
kb9vqf	Precisely
kb9vqf	"Activities" are for preschool
kb9vqf	Not for software development
Xu_R|School	kb9vqf: trololol
Xu_R|School	activities... we're in preschool class. XD
kb9vqf	Complete with big button blocks :-P
samelian	but why we hate kde4?
samelian	what is problem with it?
kb9vqf	Unintuitive
kb9vqf	Slow
kb9vqf	Clunky
Piki	unfortunately, most of the "adults" i see still belong in preschool
kb9vqf	Wastes screen real estate
Xu_R|School	samelian: the graphics is mostly the problem
Xu_R|School	and the way it handles
kb9vqf	Missing context items
samelian	the graphics are themeable :)
Xu_R|School	otherwise, it's be great.
Strangelv	"KDE 4 took away most of the things that make KDE 3.5 great
samelian	i think i do not like the kicker replacement
kb9vqf	You can't get around the lack of "at your fingertips" functionality
Xu_R|School	samelian: I want to see performance improvements, not more eyecandy -__-
kb9vqf	No matter how you theme it
Piki	samelian: slow, too much eye candy, missing stuff from kde3, unstable
Strangelv	"it's powerful, flexible, and easily adapted to be what teh user needs to get their work ,life, et c. done
kb9vqf	In KDE3 you can usually access a function with one or two mouse clicks
Strangelv	"KDE 4 takes that awapy
Xu_R|School	In all:
Xu_R|School	BLAHHH.
kb9vqf	In KDE4 you get to click at *least* three times :)
Strangelv	Most of what I wanted to do I couldn't in KDE 4 at all
kb9vqf	That reminds me of using a newer Mac in a store
kb9vqf	I counted 7 clicks to  create and delete a folder
Xu_R|School	ok, ok, let's stop ranting now. poor samelian.
samelian	haha
Piki	and i'm sure we could get a theme in kde3 that at least mimicks kde4
samelian	&lt;/rant&gt;
Piki	lol
kb9vqf	That's easy
Strangelv	"That's likely what our permanant icon ought to convey: TDE is what the user needs it to be, and not what someone else wants the user to use
kb9vqf	We'll add an "instant uglification" button :-P
kb9vqf	j/k
Piki	lol
kb9vqf	It'll make every widget 10x bigger
Xu_R|School	yes, yes, let's &lt;/rant&gt; now
kb9vqf	And shrink the fonts
kb9vqf	&lt;/rant&gt;
Xu_R|School	good. good.
Strangelv	Konqueror in KDE 4 was the one bright spot
*kb9vqf goes back to cursing at Qt4
*samelian are to lazy to write cmake docs :)
*Strangelv happened to have been impressed by that bright spot
Xu_R|School	pfft. then rekonq took over :)
kb9vqf	Strangelv :Well, maybe you can put a Wiki page up with what was better
Piki	i think we should add a bunch of themes to TDE, e.g. kde4 themes, winvista/7, osx, os classic, just for the people who prefer those, but not include them in the main tde, but as extra themes that users can add
Xu_R|School	which I hope we can make that the default in TDE once tqt for qt4 finishes
Strangelv	kb9vqf: that would require me having KDE 4 installed on something again to go back and look
Strangelv	"Extra themes is good
Strangelv	It can especially help with people migrating and needing familiarity
Strangelv	"it also helps to have teh same wallpaper and startup sound
Strangelv	Q: how many of these already exist?
Xu_R|School	Strangelv: ever since kde4 took over? like none now
*samelian are scaried every time by error sound :)
samelian	broken glass
Strangelv	"That are compatible with KDE 3.x/TDE
kb9vqf	Heh
*Strangelv used to have a photon torpedo filing for an error sound
Piki	Strangelv: not sure if we could get the sounds and wallpapers considering that M$ could come after us with a lawsuit for using copyright material
Strangelv	"Something I miss from Plug In for Program Manager (MS Windows 3.1+) was the ability to assign sounds to executables
Xu_R|School	kb9vqf: um, the Tim Willianms who just emailed trinity-users, i've decided to import his stuff for now into build.lincomlinux.org and start testing
Xu_R|School	I might be better off than before :)
Xu_R|School	hey, the bell just rang
Xu_R|School	bbl
Strangelv	"We couldn't use those, correct. It would be something to suggest to users, especially ones with the ability to port their probabyl already custom sounds and wallpaper
Piki	Strangelv: 3.1 was the best windows, most stable version, and more secure considering one can still find a firewall and antivirus
Piki	downside is no more modern apps for it
Strangelv	"When Help started, the Book of Armamants was consulted; when my MIDI sequencer was started David Bowie would say it's not Rock and Roll, but genocide; when I started MS Word President Merkin Muffley would ask me if we had anything like that in the works
Strangelv	until Windows 2000 my most stable experience with MS Windows was orinal 95, something that confused me until I realised that that was before i had MSIE installed
Piki	yeah, they want everyone to use their braindead browser
Strangelv	"Netscape for MS Windows wasn't on par with its Linux version
Piki	firefox is much better than either, unfortunately it's slow loading
Strangelv	Something I learned to do with MSIE that I couldn't do with Mozilla or Netscape was to run multiple instance of ut -- so that when an instance crashed I didn't lose everything all at once
Strangelv	"I rely heavily on Firefox 2 still -- firefox 3 has never been stable for me
Piki	and it pulls in a bunch of GTK libs, and i don't use any other gtk
Piki	what's ut?
Strangelv	"although it got noticeably less bad with 3.5 shortly before 3.6.  It's still a lot less stable than 2.0
Strangelv	"ut?
Piki	ff 2 was slow for me too
Strangelv	"firefox 2 is a nightmare memory hog.  It's something I kept in mind when I got a motherboad that can do up to 32 GB of RAM
Piki	Strangelv: a few lines up, you mention multiple instances of ut
Strangelv	"oh, multiple instances of it (MSIE)
Piki	ff3 uses less memory, but is still slow
Piki	konqueror is fast, but doesn't do html very well
kb9vqf	KHTML is completely broken
Piki	just discovered rekonq in the Ark repos, gonna see if it works
kb9vqf	A lot of modern websites will not work right
Piki	yep, only downside to konqueror is khtml, works great for everything else
kb9vqf	Once Qt4 porting is complete, I plan to use Webkit instead of khtml
Strangelv	"I've never found Konquer to be stable as a web browser.  Actually, I've never been impressed by its stability as a file browser either.  It's possible that if I'd run KDE 4 longer I'd have found stability issues with that wversion too.  I should install it sometime as I already have Qt4 running for something anyway
kb9vqf	Way in the future though :)
kb9vqf	Strangelv: Nice and stable here
kb9vqf	Although I did fix a lot of crashing bugs in Trinity
Piki	thinking of making d3lphin the default filemanager for TDE in ark, though, just to maintain consistency with our kde4 version
Strangelv	How similar are they, given that khtml begat WebKit?
kb9vqf	WebKit is maintained by Apple AFAIK
kb9vqf	Meaning they *will* make rendering work correctly
kb9vqf	khtml was never properly maintained
Strangelv	noted
Piki	konqueror has always been stable here, even displays an error instead of crashing when khtml failed to load
Piki	works well with local file management, ftp (never did uploading though), and sftp
Strangelv	I must admit that it's a plus when there's notice that something has crashed.  In unix, things are supposed to crash noisely, only in Xorg, they crash like a mouse silently leaving the room
Piki	it helps when it says why it crashed, rather than just saying it crashed
Strangelv	"That's nice too, yes
Piki	rekonq looks nice, faster than arora, but it's missing a menu bar, can't find how to enable it in my right click menus
kb9vqf	Grrr....Qt4 completely gutted QCString
kb9vqf	The original functionality is GONE with respect to null terminators
Piki	just found the rekonq config
Piki	kb9vqf: isn't null just a value of '0'?
kb9vqf	Yes
Piki	perhaps see if that works?
kb9vqf	QCString is supposed to automagically add/subtract the length of the null terminator
kb9vqf	Q3CString does NOT
kb9vqf	I've been having to track down and reimplement the functions that are malfunctioning
kb9vqf	It's not the null == 0 thing ;-)
kb9vqf	I dealt with that back on Day 1 ;-)
kb9vqf	Ah, there we go
kb9vqf	Much bette
kb9vqf	*better
samelian	kb9vqf: QCString must die anyway :)
Piki	any rekonq users who know how to get the menubar?
samelian	as I understand QCString was invented to easy porting from Qt2 to Qt3
kb9vqf	samelian: It's used practically everywhere in Trinity
kb9vqf	It's a slightly enhanced const char * string
samelian	yes, I know
kb9vqf	So it actually does have a purpose
kb9vqf	if you need to interface to anything C-like
kb9vqf	QString has problems because it is Unicode
samelian	but i'm not wrong, QCString::length() is the same thing as strlen()
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	But not in Q3CString
samelian	this is bad, actually
kb9vqf	They broke it
kb9vqf	I had to fix it
samelian	length() count all characters every time
samelian	this is an useless overhead
kb9vqf	Yes, I know
kb9vqf	I know there are "better" ways of doing things
kb9vqf	But the C API is old
kb9vqf	You probably will need to use a QCString
kb9vqf	When you do glib integration
kb9vqf	*When/if
samelian	actually I used QString instead
samelian	this is recommended
kb9vqf	But you probably used the .ascii() function, right?
samelian	yes
kb9vqf	That's a QCString internally
samelian	QString do this automatically too
kb9vqf	ascii() has a lot of overhead
kb9vqf	Both in terms of memory and CPU time
kb9vqf	Just FYI
samelian	operator const char* is the same thing
kb9vqf	Yup
kb9vqf	Same conversion
kb9vqf	Same overhead
kb9vqf	Like I said, I think QCString has its place
kb9vqf	But only for low level stuff
*kb9vqf just got khelpcenter partially working :)
samelian	hehe
Piki	kb9vqf: once i eventually get 3.5.12 packaged and uploaded to the AL repos, i can grab svn and start helping there
Piki	with testing
kb9vqf	Sounds great
kb9vqf	We will need lots of testing this go-round
kb9vqf	Lots of stuff is changing
kb9vqf	in the backend that is
kb9vqf	samelian: Speaking of which, how goes libkpower?
Piki	i'm hoping i can patch 3.5.12 for our mission control, though, don't know how much has changed since 3.5.10
kb9vqf	Piki: Depends on what is used
kb9vqf	As long as you didn't use low level device libraries the patch should be relatively simple
Piki	kb9vqf: dunno, haven't looked at the patches yet
kb9vqf	Ok
kb9vqf	You'll need to tqt convert them most likely
kb9vqf	That involves changing QObject to TQObject, QWidget to TQWidget, etc.
kb9vqf	And changing things like find("foo") to tqfind("foo")
Piki	kb9vqf: i don't think it would, it's for reorganizing kcontrol modules to make it easier for new users
kb9vqf	Pretty simple
kb9vqf	Oh, OK
kb9vqf	TQt conversion would be the hardest part then
kb9vqf	And it's mostly just tedious
Piki	dunno why the patches are there in the first place, but still
kb9vqf	Sure
Piki	kb9vqf: you'll have to help me convert to tqt, i haven't started coding yet ;-)
kb9vqf	When you're ready (way in the future I know...) just poke me here
kb9vqf	I'll help you
kb9vqf	Or maybe by that point others will know about TQt :)
Piki	in fact, once it's converted and stable, i can send in mission control and it's patches
kb9vqf	And I could probably include them in SVN
kb9vqf	As long as there's a GPL license, and the coding is OK there shouldn't be any problems
Piki	i'm rsync'ing our stable repos (need to regenerate the repodata, it disappeared for some reasons), once the 2008.1 isos appear, i can do a vbox install and do screenshots
Xu_R	mwahaha, i iz back
Piki	kb9vqf: i'm pretty sure it uses GPLv2, and bero is obsessed with keeping code clean and sane so that things work, so i don't think that will be a problem
kb9vqf	Great
samelian	kb9vqf: I haven't time to progress on libkpower, at this moment I can call upower methods (like suspend()) and a can read upower properties (like onBattery())
kb9vqf	OK
Piki	if it isn't  clean, i can do some work cleaning it up when converting to tqt, once i know how to code
Xu_R	kb9vqf: anything back-breaking in SVN atm? I'm about to start pulling from services.
Xu_R	*triggering services
Piki	brb
Xu_R	samelian: do the 3.5.12 tarballs work with your current svn cmake scripts?
Xu_R	because i'm going to maintain two versions: 3.5.12 and svn (named 3.5.12.99)
Piki	Xu_R: using rekonq, apparently on the AL repos, nice UI, and faster than arora, but can't find the menu bar
Xu_R	Piki: there is no menubar
Xu_R	use the settings to the side to access everything
Xu_R	very lightweight. no baggage.
Piki	yeah, i'm used to a menu bar
Xu_R	brb snacking
Piki	keeps things a bit organized and quicker (at least for me) than keeping everything under the same button
*Xu_R goes to nom on ramen again :D
*field_it has joined #trinity-desktop
Piki	btw, a menu bar doesn't mean extra baggage, arora has one, and it tries to be as minimal as possible
Piki	it's still not reached 1.0 yet
Piki	so there's still time for it to speed it
samelian	Xu_R: I have no ideea, I think will not working directly, at least because cmake check for patched qt3
Piki	it == up
Piki	it might work, if the cmake scripts use the same source files as 3.5.12
Piki	or maybe with a patch to 3.5.12
Piki	on the plus side (for rekonq), facebook now seems to be working normally
*kb9vqf notes that "very lightweight" often == "completely usesless"
Piki	just wish i could remove the fb chat from the site, i have kopete set for that
Piki	kb9vqf: not always, as long as it can still function properly, do what the user needs, and support extensions so the user can add what he needs/wants that isn't included, that's a good thing
kb9vqf	Right
Piki	it's a matter of how it is developed/designed
kb9vqf	Hence the "often" word ;-)
kb9vqf	I see that used waaayyy too often as an excuse
kb9vqf	And yes, I agree with you
Piki	arora is slow, and doesn't like fb, but if they fix those and add a way to use extensions, arora would be a great lightweight browser
Piki	i find it odd that arora doesn't like fb, though, it uses webkit, and so does rekonq
kb9vqf	The insanity I was referring to usually ends with "xyz feature make the interface too cluttered, let's completely remove it from the application.  Oh and by the way, this makes it so we don't have to do as much in the future" :-P
kb9vqf	It's about what's easiest for the developers
kb9vqf	I'm not sure about Arora
*kb9vqf has never used it
kb9vqf	Although KDE has a long history of patching backend libraries
kb9vqf	Maybe they did that with Webkit for rekonq
Piki	with certain apps, there are things that should always be there, and other things that if they aren't included, they should at least be extensions
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	Firefox for example is well designed
Piki	kb9vqf: i don't think rekonq is actually kde4, i'm pretty sure it's a 3rd part app
kb9vqf	Which might include a patched verison of Webkit
kb9vqf	I'm just speculating though
Piki	arora is nice, but slow
Piki	actually, when i installed rekonq, it didn't pull in webkit, it seems to be using webkit as already installed
Piki	which would be the same webkit that arora is using on my system
kb9vqf	Hmm
kb9vqf	Beats me then
Piki	there could be a bug in arora in how it' using webkit
Piki	this whole time i was thinking that it was my internet connection really slow that was causing the fb and speed issues in arora, but rekonq is going extremely fast, and seems to like fb
kb9vqf	Arora is GTK based?
Piki	(Clear is a horrible ISP, but unfortunately i have no other choice but to rely on my mother's verizon FiOS, and she tends to shut it off when i'm using it cause she's afraid of linux)
Piki	no, Qt
Piki	Qt4
Piki	the only GTK app i use is firefox
Piki	and i use it only because of KHTML and website compatibility
kb9vqf	Ah
kb9vqf	Qt4
kb9vqf	If used wrong it could be really, really slow
kb9vqf	And it's very easy to use wrong :)
Xu_R	samelian: fk. I'll try it, but that means I'll have to devel soley on svn right now
Piki	it's slow and heavy, and pulls in GTK libs (obviously), which i shouldn't have to do being that i don't use any other GTK apps
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Go ahead; I'll try not to break things too badly in SVN
Piki	just takes up extra space that i could otherwise use when i get to heavy packaging
kb9vqf	If it breaks poke me here
Piki	though i dunno, may decide to package GNOME just to shut up the people who keep complaining that we don't have it
Piki	after TDE, of course ;-)
kb9vqf	Naturally :)
Piki	and perhaps some other DE's and WM's\
Piki	so having GTK may come in handy
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*kb9vqf thinks that may be a good idea
kb9vqf	Lots of GTK apps out there
kb9vqf	And TDE integrates nicely
Piki	the only reason we have GTK in our repos is for firefox, which is in the repos only because it's so popular
Piki	we don't include anything GTK on the ISO, however
kb9vqf	You don't have Gimp itself then?
Piki	never bothered to search our repos for it
Piki	*Checks&amp;
Piki	turns out we do
Piki	i think we include krita by default
Piki	i don't do anything with image editing, except resizing and cropping photos photos from the camera
Piki	i use gwenview for that
Piki	if there is anyone here who is willing to download Ark's devel ISO and do some packaging of GTK apps, feel free to let us know ;-)
Piki	we use RPM5, very similiar to RPM4, though i'm pretty sure we use SRPMs on the build server
Piki	no public access to build server (i don't have access), but we can always create a temporary  drop point on the webserver via a php page
Xu_R	kb9vqf: started services. hopefully svn won't get pounded too much :)
*Xu_R thinks of mario's "here we go!" voice :P
kb9vqf	OK
Piki	imagine mario saying "whop-pop-pop-per" (was a joke at BK when i worked there lol)
Xu_R	kb9vqf: and the nice thing is that I think I have a patched version of build.o.o that allows me to use download-on-demand ready... :D
Xu_R	that will allow me to include the Update repositories and rolling release repositories of any distribution.
Xu_R	well, I think i'll stick with the basics of making it build first ;)
Xu_R	I'll brb for a while... Sleeping at 2AM does not go well for me.
samelian	kb9vqf: I started to document my macros
samelian	http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/bin/view/Developers/CMakeConversionProcess
kb9vqf	Good
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MutantTurkey	irc logs now online? nice
kb9vqf	Almost
kb9vqf	Give me a minute or two
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: also, I've implemented the secondary bar, and pretty much converted all the pages you have me, so from here I just need to 1) look over the wiki, some stuff should be in the website. 2) do the frontpage with  3.5.12 features 3) make an about/history page 4) double check and validate everything
kb9vqf	OK
kb9vqf	I don't have time right this instant unfortunately :-(
kb9vqf	Will you be on later on todaty?
kb9vqf	*today
MutantTurkey	that fine, I was just letting you know
kb9vqf	OK, thanks
MutantTurkey	I should be tonight.
kb9vqf	And thanks for all the work on it :")
MutantTurkey	:) yup
MutantTurkey	I've also contacted David R about Archlinux + Trinity, he has made some progress and i'll be working through bugs with him hopefully
kb9vqf	OK
kb9vqf	Logs are up
kb9vqf	I don't know if they will update automatically yet
kb9vqf	And there is some work to be done with splitting them month to month
kb9vqf	But they are there :)
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Piki	pfft, just hit "CTRL+Shift+T" in rekonq cause i closed a tab by accident, it reloaded all the tabs i've closed, instead of just the last one
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay great!
MutantTurkey	okay I am going to make a list of pages that may/should move to the main site
kb9vqf	Sounds good
kb9vqf	IRC log automatic updates work :)
samelian	kb9vqf: I think we must to find someone for cmake conversion
kb9vqf	Yes
kb9vqf	toxic_devil said he'd take a look at your Wiki page
samelian	because we are only qt developer, our skills can be used for programming
kb9vqf	Right
samelian	cmake is too simple for us :)
kb9vqf	Correct
samelian	actually cmake can be learn very easy just reading CMakeLists.txt
samelian	kb9vqf: send an announce to lists that we recruiting cmake porters
samelian	I will mentoring him
MutantTurkey	I can help.
samelian	in this, when you ready, I will start to teach you :)
samelian	in this case*
kb9vqf	samelian: Is your Wiki article finished then?
kb9vqf	I'll send the announce once I have something to refer to
samelian	is not, I'm not sure how far I must to go with explanations
samelian	I assume that who want to help with cmake, must read cmake docs at first time
kb9vqf	So the process is not straightforward enough to do without reading the CMake docs?
kb9vqf	A lot of people will not bother to read those docs
samelian	will be easy to do for usual tasks
MutantTurkey	samelian: okay great, I am nearing website completion, hopefully this week if i am not to busy. I am anxious to work on cmake
samelian	don't
samelian	is really simple
samelian	I think you will need to read a little, to understand basics
kb9vqf	Why don't you put a link to the section(s) you think people should read first
kb9vqf	Something like Read This First:
samelian	good ideea
samelian	the barrier is my poor english, is hard for me to write docs
kb9vqf	Right
kb9vqf	I understand
samelian	i preffer to teach someone with solid english background
kb9vqf	Just get the essentials down
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: I have another task for you.....
samelian	then, he can continue my doc
kb9vqf	Once you learn CMake you can clean up samelian's Wiki article :)
MutantTurkey	I better make a list :p
MutantTurkey	samelian: yeah, I can help you with english.
MutantTurkey	for documentation.
samelian	MutantTurkey: you will enjoy when your cmake will be able to compile a big part of trinity :)
MutantTurkey	:D
Piki	we have to be able to understand poor english in linux, linux is global and not everyone is good with english ;-)
samelian	hehe
kb9vqf	So true
samelian	I need to learn it, but I have no time to take some formal lessons
MutantTurkey	one trick is to watch american or British tv shows.
Piki	there are translators like Google Translate or AltaVista bablefish (i think that's it), they aren't perfect, but can help
samelian	and I'm too lazy to read english grammar books ;)
kb9vqf	I've been told they don't work for ru--&gt;en
MutantTurkey	Piki: google translate is my savior for linux. many russian speakers
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: they work well enough
kb9vqf	Oh
kb9vqf	Maybe it was en--&gt;ru
*kb9vqf forgets
MutantTurkey	both ways I've been okay with.
MutantTurkey	usually its not good grammer
kb9vqf	Hmm
MutantTurkey	but passable.
kb9vqf	OK
Piki	yeah, translators don't do grammar well, but they can do words and small phrases decently
Piki	two problems with TV shows: it can be hard to sound out words for typing sometimes, and while the grammar will be the same between different english-speaking countries, they can sometimes have different slang and figurativeterms
MutantTurkey	agreed.
kb9vqf	Yes, and American TV shows typically slur and utilize bad grammar
Piki	and not everyone uses good grammar
Piki	kb9vqf: exactly, and mispronounce an' all dat
kb9vqf	Yes :)
MutantTurkey	when is 3.5.13 due? we are on 6th month cycle?
kb9vqf	Right now yes
kb9vqf	But the CMake port is a blocker
kb9vqf	It must be finished before 3.5.13 (3.6.0?) can be released
samelian	automake do not working anymore?
MutantTurkey	agreed.
kb9vqf	samelian: No
kb9vqf	It broke badly
MutantTurkey	also what about HAL? i would like to see that go
kb9vqf	It may have to wait
kb9vqf	We'll see where samelian is after the CMake port is finished :)
samelian	haha
MutantTurkey	how long/ how far are we on that?
kb9vqf	CMake?
MutantTurkey	yes
samelian	depends you you consider "trinity"
samelian	what you*
kb9vqf	I say the entire codebase that is in SVN
samelian	wow
kb9vqf	Yes
samelian	that's big
kb9vqf	Yes it is
kb9vqf	Hence my thought that a delay is needed
kb9vqf	Now I know some of it is already converted to CMake
Piki	it isn't always good to work on a specific deadline, it can either pushed back and get users mad, or force you to put out a bad release and make users mad
kb9vqf	rosegarden, etc.
kb9vqf	Piki: Correct
kb9vqf	Think of this particular release date as a suggestion
kb9vqf	If the bugs aren't fixed they aren't fixed and we can't release
kb9vqf	I want a high quality 3.6.0
Piki	exactly
MutantTurkey	3.6 is: hal gone, updated libraries completely? CMake fully?
kb9vqf	CMake for sure
MutantTurkey	what about new features that users  will actually see.
kb9vqf	HAL gone if possible
kb9vqf	Lots of bugfixes
MutantTurkey	i mean, backend stuff is good. but, honestly? a user doesn't care hal vs udisks
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: They do care about stability
MutantTurkey	which is I would say #1 importance
kb9vqf	I would like to see those bugs in Bugzilla taken care of
kb9vqf	*Completely* stabilize 3.6.0
kb9vqf	No more random crashing anywhere :)
Piki	we don't even put suggested release dates at ark, people tend to read those as definitive
MutantTurkey	hopefully have Arch packages :)
kb9vqf	That follows CMake :)
MutantTurkey	yes.
MutantTurkey	Cmake is the blocker because we can't develop if we cannot build.
kb9vqf	If you, toxic_devil, and some others can get CMake finished it would free samelian and I up to work on those other things
kb9vqf	Feel free to recruit warm bodies for the CMake task ;-)
samelian	most and hardest cmake tasks was done, actually
samelian	now is just boring :)
kb9vqf	Right
samelian	right now i'm on trinity built with cmake
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: If you want to put together a CMake recruitment Email I'll forward it to the list
samelian	so, is good enough for me :)
kb9vqf	samelian: How is it treating you?  Find any irritating bugs yet?
samelian	nope
Piki	kb9vqf: i'd say instead of rewriting the HAL code for udev, rewrite it in much the same fashion as tqt, as in make it so that all we need to do to change the hardware backend is create a wrapper for the backend that TDE can plug. dunno if that's doable, but if so it can make things easier
kb9vqf	Great :)
samelian	actually small annoing crashes
samelian	klipper
kb9vqf	Piki: That's exactly what we're doing
samelian	and very rare, kmail
kb9vqf	Backtraces would help
samelian	yes, klipper make some strange
samelian	crashing in qt
kb9vqf	stack corrupt, etc?
kb9vqf	ick
samelian	nope
kb9vqf	Oh
samelian	something about mime
kb9vqf	MimeSource
samelian	crashing when I select something from qt3 assistant
kb9vqf	Huh
MutantTurkey	I can put together an email, what mailing list?
samelian	that's really annoying
kb9vqf	Send it to trinity-announce
MutantTurkey	Also, are we trying to recruit any qt devels? jw
kb9vqf	I'll proofread it and sent it out
kb9vqf	YES
MutantTurkey	ah I'll shoot it past you and you can email it.
samelian	qt3 devels are very rare :)
kb9vqf	Qt devs in general
MutantTurkey	all dinosaurs now :p
kb9vqf	Good ones that is :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: yeah.  I've made alot of friends with linux, maybe be some help if any are qt devels
samelian	as far I know, I and kb9vqf are last mohicans  :)
kb9vqf	I hope not!
samelian	actually for me is the same, i'm an old programmer
samelian	so no matter to much the framework
kb9vqf	That's the way it should be IMHO
samelian	i'm not exactly a C++ guru, but is enough for usual tasks
kb9vqf	That's fine
kb9vqf	I'm mostly handling the really weird stuff most people see once in a lifetime
samelian	hehe
MutantTurkey	I am just a C programmer, I have no formal training though
MutantTurkey	just bumming around and patching stuff.
samelian	however, about cmake, the big scary tasks like kdelibs, kdebase, kdevelop and quanta are done
samelian	now we need to finish the small applications
samelian	I don't expect much troubles with it
samelian	actually kopete is partial done, but I will finish it myself
MutantTurkey	what version broke automake?
MutantTurkey	samelian: will it be mostly the same for each application? i can do the grunt work
samelian	pretty much
samelian	will be almost copy/paste, copy/paste
samelian	you just must follow some rules
samelian	I created some cmake template files, for usual tasks
MutantTurkey	excellent
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I don't know much to say, I'll keep it short.
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: I don't know.  Something after Ubuntu Maverick
kb9vqf	And short is OK
kb9vqf	:)
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay I've emailed you.
field_it	hi
field_it	did my msgs get through?
field_it	dunno
field_it	I'll post'em again..
field_it	problem is: the trinity window-manager entry (name) in the drop down menu of ?dm does not match the name in debian. I'd like to fix this, get rid of the warning "name not available any longer"..
field_it	where are the menu entries created?
field_it	in debian kde3 is now called trinity, in ubuntu it's called kde3..
field_it	I need it either way.. identical..
field_it	nevermind
field_it	got it
Piki	field_it: i think you would need to look up it up for your DM, they do things different
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Sent
kb9vqf	Thanks!
Piki	and the packager for debian/ubuntu would need to fix the name in the packager
Piki	in the packages*
samelian	kb9vqf: pls tell me syntax for tables, for foswiki
kb9vqf	samelian: | Column 1 | Column 2
kb9vqf	samelian: | Column 1 | Column 2 |
kb9vqf	^^
kb9vqf	Newline
kb9vqf	then
samelian	thx
kb9vqf	| Data1 | Data 2 |
kb9vqf	np
field_it	Piki: it's just a file in /usr/share/xsessions/
field_it	rename the file appropriately, change the name directive inside the file accordingly and you're done :)
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: woah. new theme for the Trinity wiki caught me by surprise - used to seeing too much blue ;)
kb9vqf	It came with the upgrade
kb9vqf	Is it good or bad?
Xu_R	very good. the last one was an eyesore.
kb9vqf	Glad to hear it :)
Xu_R	:)
Xu_R	oh s*** my workers died
Xu_R	no wait... my scheduler.
Space_Man	lol, you must feed your workers
Xu_R	LOL
Xu_R	my ARM and x86_64 workers are failing D:
Xu_R	*schedulers
Piki	you need a new datebook for 2011, your old 2010 is full
Xu_R	AHHHHH. I sent my scheduler into heart attack mode by restarting it too many times &gt;_&lt;
*Xu_R finally fixed his scheduler - in the process, added an ia64 arch
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: great saw the email
kb9vqf	Now we'll see if anyone responds :)
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: I'm guessing you were the person who wrote the email? :P
kb9vqf	Yes he was
Xu_R	nice nice.
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: yes sir
Xu_R	:D
MutantTurkey	had my father check it first :P he is quite good at sending out annoucements
Xu_R	niceee :D
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: what would you say to a "developers profile" page? http://www.archlinux.org/developers/
MutantTurkey	I think it would be good so we could have a solid contact list.
MutantTurkey	for example, I had no idea someone else was working on Arch. contacting people directly is often helpful.
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: as people come and go, will we always remember to update the page? :|
MutantTurkey	well look
MutantTurkey	the trick is: assign a website maintainer
MutantTurkey	obviously the solution, so it won't be long over due like this time.
Piki	what if the site maintainer goes? then who takes care of it?
MutantTurkey	a maintainer will a) keep it updated b) add/remove based on events and such c) be composed of a single or team of people (size of it) d) it keeps the developers working
MutantTurkey	Piki: you get a new one.
MutantTurkey	and site maintainers, do come and go. same as developers and users.
MutantTurkey	but by assigning someone the position, it becomes their responsability
Piki	well, sometimes it could be awhile before we notice they're gone, and they might not know they're about to disappear until something comes up and may not have the time to notify us
MutantTurkey	a while before we notice? I was thinking someone who is a regular.
kb9vqf	If this is the case then the list should be maintained on a Wiki page
MutantTurkey	also again, it is their job to notify us if they cannot handle it.
MutantTurkey	I just think assigning jobs is a sure way to get stuff done
Piki	also again, something may come up and they may not have the time to notify us
MutantTurkey	then they are gone?
MutantTurkey	it is not such a problme.
MutantTurkey	the website isn't updated often
MutantTurkey	just for new information / annoucements.
MutantTurkey	also, that is alot of ifs and mays
MutantTurkey	WHAT IF THEY GOT HIJACKED BY A BUNCH OF CRAZY NATIONALIST PARTY MEMBERS THAT THEN JOINED FORCES WITH GUERILLA FIGHTERS FROM CANADA, WHO THEN PROCEEDED TO HOLD HIM HOSTAGE ON A TRILLION DOLLARS BAIL?
kb9vqf	Now now, be nice :)
*Xu_R just got an email about the GA of F15 Alpha 1 that's currently on the serverbeach
MutantTurkey	i mean, we can't take into all factors for anything. alot can happen, and yes people come and go, but by assigning someone the duty, there is a better chance at it being updated.
Xu_R	MutantTurkey is very confident in his views ;)
Piki	i agree with kb9vqf, if we do make a page like that, we should do it on the wiki
MutantTurkey	agreed.
Piki	that way, we don't have to worry about if the webmaster disappears, someone else can remove them
MutantTurkey	Piki: again, you are making the "webmaster" job sound complicated.
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf would still have access obviously to it. it is his server. simple as adding or removing a few lines from a file.
Piki	no, i'm just taking into account if someone disappeared
kb9vqf	Heh
kb9vqf	I'm the founder
MutantTurkey	then you move them to inactive/past members.
kb9vqf	I will always be here :)
MutantTurkey	what if you dissapear?
MutantTurkey	D:
MutantTurkey	what if .
Piki	and webmastering can be complicated, i am a webmaster
MutantTurkey	Piki: we are keeping it extremely simple.
kb9vqf	What if a bus hit me tomorrow?
MutantTurkey	well. we better just quit while we are ahead
kb9vqf	Let's keep things in the realm of "likely" please :)
Piki	i always try to be prepared for the unexpected
MutantTurkey	since something may happen to any of us at any given time.
MutantTurkey	let us just quit.
kb9vqf	I do understand
kb9vqf	But the simple fact is the services are running on my equipment
Xu_R	kb9vqf: You better not be hit by a bus! &gt;:
Xu_R	XD
kb9vqf	There is always a weak link/choke point/whatever you want to call it
Piki	yes, and we need to be prepared for those to keep things running
Piki	otherwise, things will fall apart at some point
Piki	sure, we can't predict everything
kb9vqf	I look at it this way; if I can no longer maintain Trinity and host the services I have then I would relinquish control of the fork
Piki	but we should do our best to prepare
kb9vqf	But for now that is not my intention!
MutantTurkey	and for now, i intend to webmaster
kb9vqf	Fine with me :)
MutantTurkey	basically that whole long slew was about how I'd like to be the webmaster.
kb9vqf	I appreciate the help
MutantTurkey	because its obvious things are hecktic around here, you are busy and don't have time. my hobby is doing internet stuff. i have alot of time.
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MutantTurkey	okay, kb9vqf i have a list of potential things i think should be moved to the website, or revised in the wiki.
MutantTurkey	the Roadmap and ToDo are in effect the same, with similar purpose. It would be better to combine them, having them on the website means it is easier for users to see progress and future improvements. (this could also mean just a direct link to the wiki)
Xu_R	oh. my. god. Epoch: 30000000 D: that's terrible
MutantTurkey	DL
Xu_R	sorry, just had to put that out there. &gt;_&lt;
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: OK
kb9vqf	Dou you have the website running now?
kb9vqf	The test one that is?
kb9vqf	I didn't get a chance to look at it yet:
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	http://96.245.17.6/
MutantTurkey	I've got to help my father purchase a laptop for his work.
MutantTurkey	I might be on later.
MutantTurkey	just let me know what you think
Xu_R	"A Big thank you to all who have helped blah blah blah Lorem Ipsum Lorem Ipsum ask kb. Thanks!"
Xu_R	+1 :P
kb9vqf	Of course it will need editing ;-)
kb9vqf	Errr...rewriting....
kb9vqf	But overall I'm looking at design and navigation for now
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: We have mailing lists twice
kb9vqf	I'd kind of like a "Contact" or "Support" tab where we can have the IRC information
kb9vqf	Also, a "Screenshots" tab would be nice
kb9vqf	And maybe "Supported Distributions"
kb9vqf	And a "Home" tab perhaps
kb9vqf	Otherwise it looks good
Piki	kb9vqf: maybe you can setup an email for you, samelian, and an email for the entire TDE team and have an email form on the site?
MutantTurkey	yeah sorry, i Just copied the links over
MutantTurkey	still are replacing them.
kb9vqf	Piki: Sounds like a good idea
kb9vqf	Also, I wonder if an online IRC chat window is a good idea or not?
kb9vqf	Under the "Support" tab :)
MutantTurkey	NO
kb9vqf	OK
kb9vqf	Just a thought
MutantTurkey	redirect them to webchat.freenode.net
MutantTurkey	webchat is great, i use it at school. straight foreward
kb9vqf	That's all I was looking for
kb9vqf	An easy way for an IRC novice to ask questions
MutantTurkey	so, 1)supported distros YES  2) home? TDE logo sends you home 3) screen shots definitely 4) Contact/Support yes good idea
Piki	not everyone knows to use the logo as a link to home, took me a long time to figure that out ;-)
kb9vqf	I would not have though of that either
Piki	we can use the freenode qwebirc to create an embedded webirc for the site that would auto-direct to this channel when it connects to freenode, maybe even set a custom nick
Piki	just an idea
kb9vqf	Asking people for a nick before connection would be a good ide
kb9vqf	*idea
kb9vqf	Also a little checkbox "I agree to the terms and conditions and will be polite"
kb9vqf	Before it allows a connection ;-)
Xu_R	samelian~ ah crap, he always leaves when I want to ask a question.
Piki	kb9vqf: the custom nick can be set to changeable
Xu_R	ah, nevermind. found the answer via the ml
Piki	i don't think it allows an "I agree to ..." box, but it does have recaptcha
Piki	it doesn't need a preset nick, it's optional
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: eh. I disagree.
MutantTurkey	that is overboard.
MutantTurkey	adding widgets to the page just isn't really appealing and loading java/whatever applets can be slow. but i may be wrong.
MutantTurkey	I think better would be a link to "click here to access the IRC" and link to it easily. maybe set the channel and everything
MutantTurkey	Piki, Xu_R, kb9vqf: can you all send me a few pictures of your Trinity Desktops? (with windows and such, but also one of just desktop) for the screenshots page? I'd like to get some variety.
Piki	MutantTurkey: if you can do the ark linux packages for me ;-)
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: I'll do it in a little bit. I've got a Unity Linux VM instance running and i'm trying to sort out Qt3 stuff right now.
Piki	haven't had a chance to finish my build server
Xu_R	Do you mind if I just throw them in trinity-devel?
Xu_R	i
Xu_R	'll make sure to make the subject "For MutantTurkey" XD
Xu_R	(valentine's day special trololol)
MutantTurkey	sure thing :D
MutantTurkey	be mine? :p
MutantTurkey	yeah over the ml or just at me, MutantTurkey@gmail so whatever works
Xu_R	hehe :P
Xu_R	anyone know what the mandriva version macro is? mdkversion or something? &gt;_&gt;
Xu_R	never mind, found it. guessed it right ;)
Piki	anybody in PA? i need a good psychiatric institution to put my mom in. everything bad that happens is automatically me, not her or the poor designers of the tech she uses, but me, and there's no convincing her otherwise, even if i never touched it, and i'm not dealing with it any more
Piki	i need a place that will get her FIXED
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Gingerbread-Man	hello all :-)
Gingerbread-Man	geussing at this time of night the channel is dead ....
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Gingerbread-Man	hi Space_Man
*TokRa has noticed: Trinity DE has been mentionned on http://habrahabr.ru/blogs/linux/113479/
MutantTurkey	Pikii I am
MutantTurkey	Gingerbread-Man: yea everyone is asleep
MutantTurkey	this is much to early for me anyway
Space_Man	hi Gingerbread-Man
Space_Man	I'm awake ;)
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TokRa	toxic_devil:
toxic_devil	TokRa: &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1074;
TokRa	toxic_devil: &#1079;&#1072;&#1075;&#1083;&#1103;&#1085;&#1080; &#1085;&#1072; http://habrahabr.ru/blogs/linux/113479/
TokRa	&#1090;&#1072;&#1084; &#1082;&#1072;&#1082; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086; &#1050;&#1044;&#1025;3
toxic_devil	TokRa: &#1103; &#1089;&#1084;&#1086;&#1090;&#1088;&#1077;&#1083; &#1090;&#1099; &#1078;&#1077; &#1084;&#1085;&#1077; &#1074; &#1086;&#1092; &#1074; &#1078;&#1072;&#1073;&#1073;&#1077;&#1088; &#1089;&#1089;&#1099;&#1083;&#1082;&#1091; &#1082;&#1080;&#1085;&#1091;&#1083;&#1072;
toxic_devil	^^
TokRa	^_^
TokRa	914 &#1087;&#1086;&#1089;&#1077;&#1097;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1081; &#1086;&#1090;&#1090;&#1091;&#1076;&#1072;
TokRa	&#1080; &#1089;&#1091;&#1076;&#1103; &#1087;&#1086; &#1083;&#1086;&#1075;&#1092;&#1072;&#1081;&#1083;&#1072;&#1084; &#1089;&#1077;&#1088;&#1074;&#1077;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;, &#1085;&#1072;&#1088;&#1086;&#1076; &#1080;&#1089;&#1086;&#1096;&#1082;&#1080; &#1082;&#1072;&#1095;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090; &#1087;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1086;&#1103;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086; :)
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toxic_devil	TokRa: &#1076;&#1072; &#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1082;&#1072;&#1095;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090; &#1090;&#1086; &#1082;&#1072;&#1095;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090;
toxic_devil	&#1082;&#1090;&#1086; &#1073;&#1099; &#1074; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1088;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1082;&#1077; &#1087;&#1086;&#1084;&#1086;&#1075;
toxic_devil	TokRa: &#1091; &#1085;&#1080;&#1093; &#1078;&#1077; &#1076;&#1077;&#1074;&#1077;&#1083;&#1086;&#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074; &#1085;&#1077; &#1093;&#1074;&#1072;&#1090;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090;
toxic_devil	&#1072; &#1082;&#1090;&#1086; &#1091;&#1084;&#1077;&#1077;&#1090; &#1086;&#1085;&#1080; &#1085;&#1077; &#1095;&#1091;&#1093;&#1072;&#1102;&#1090;&#1089;&#1103;
toxic_devil	&#1080;&#1073;&#1086; &#1102;&#1079;&#1072;&#1102;&#1090; 4 - &#1077; &#1082;&#1077;&#1076;&#1099;
toxic_devil	&#1059;&#1056;&#1054;&#1044;&#1067;!!!
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TokRa	4-&#1077; &#1101;&#1090;&#1086; &#1085;&#1077; &#1082;&#1077;&#1076;&#1099;, &#1072; &#1075;&#1072;&#1083;&#1086;&#1096;&#1080;
TokRa	&#1085;&#1072;&#1076;&#1077;&#1090;&#1099;&#1077; &#1085;&#1072; &#1074;&#1072;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1082;&#1080;
TokRa	&#1080;&#1085;&#1072;&#1095;&#1077; &#1089;&#1093;&#1077;&#1084;&#1091; &#1089; akonadi &#1085;&#1077; &#1085;&#1072;&#1079;&#1086;&#1074;&#1105;&#1096;&#1100;
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TokRa	&#1080; &#1077;&#1097;&#1105; &#1085;&#1072; &#1082;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1099;&#1083;&#1103;&#1093;
TokRa	&#1082;&#1072;&#1088;&#1090;&#1080;&#1085;&#1072; &#1084;&#1072;&#1089;&#1083;&#1086;&#1084; :)
toxic_devil	TokRa: &#1072;&#1075;&#1072; &#1085;&#1077; &#1075;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1088;&#1080;
toxic_devil	&#1073;&#1083;&#1080;&#1085; &#1091; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1072; &#1088;&#1077;&#1082;&#1083;&#1072;&#1084;&#1099; &#1085;&#1077;&#1090;&#1091;
toxic_devil	&#1084;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1080;&#1077; &#1074;&#1086;&#1086;&#1073;&#1097;&#1077; &#1086; &#1085;&#1077;&#1084; &#1085;&#1077; &#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1102;&#1090;
TokRa	&#1085;&#1072;&#1076;&#1086; &#1087;&#1080;&#1089;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100; &#1074; &#1042;&#1080;&#1082;&#1080;&#1087;&#1077;&#1076;&#1080;&#1103;&#1093;
TokRa	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_Desktop_Environment_3#Forking
toxic_devil	TokRa: &#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1077;&#1096;&#1100;
toxic_devil	&#1103; &#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1090;&#1086; &#1090;&#1072;&#1082; &#1074; &#1086;&#1087;&#1077;&#1085;&#1089;&#1086;&#1088;&#1089; &#1089;&#1086;&#1086;&#1073;&#1097;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074;&#1077; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1086;&#1095;&#1072;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1083;&#1089;&#1103;(((
*TokRa &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1072; &#1074; &#1089;&#1077;&#1073;&#1077; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1086;&#1095;&#1072;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1083;&#1072;&#1089;&#1100;: &#1087;&#1086;&#1084;&#1085;&#1080;&#1090;&#1089;&#1103;, &#1074;&#1077;&#1089;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1089;&#1086;&#1073;&#1080;&#1088;&#1072;&#1083;&#1072;&#1089;&#1100; web &#1088;&#1077;&#1089;&#1091;&#1088;&#1089; Trinity &#1089;&#1086;&#1079;&#1076;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100;, &#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1077;&#1087;&#1080;&#1089;&#1099;&#1074;&#1072;&#1083;&#1072;&#1089;&#1100; &#1089; Timothy &#1087;&#1086; &#1101;&#1090;&#1086;&#1084;&#1091; &#1087;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1076;&#1091;, &#1085;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086; &#1084;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1080;&#1084; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1095;&#1080;&#1085;&#1072;&#1084; (&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1100; &#1074; &#1090;&#1086;&#1084; &#1095;&#1080;&#1089;&#1083;&#1077;) &#1101;&#1090;&#1086; &#1090;&#1072;&#1082; &#1080; &#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1083;&#1086;&#1089;&#1100; &#1085;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103;&#1084;&#1080; :(
TokRa	&#1040; &#1090;&#1077;&#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1100; Timothy &#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1103; &#1087;&#1086;&#1093;&#1086;&#1078;&#1077; &#1080;&#1075;&#1085;&#1086;&#1088;&#1080;&#1088;&#1091;&#1077;&#1090;: &#1086;&#1073;&#1080;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1089;&#1103;, &#1085;&#1072;&#1074;&#1077;&#1088;&#1085;&#1086;&#1077; :(
toxic_devil	TokRa: &#1076;&#1072; &#1085;&#1091; &#1085;&#1077;
toxic_devil	&#1091; &#1084;&#1085;&#1091; &#1088;&#1077;&#1073;&#1103;&#1090;&#1072; &#1077;&#1073;&#1080;&#1083;&#1076;&#1099; &#1085;&#1072; &#1073;&#1072;&#1079;&#1086;&#1074;&#1091;&#1102; &#1089;&#1080;&#1089;&#1090;&#1077;&#1084;&#1091; &#1089;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1072;&#1083;&#1080; &#1087;&#1086;&#1076;&#1087;&#1080;&#1083;&#1080;&#1083;&#1080;
toxic_devil	&#1074;&#1086;&#1090; &#1096;&#1072; &#1074;&#1088;&#1086;&#1076;&#1077; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1072;&#1085; &#1085;&#1072; &#1074;&#1080;&#1082;&#1080; &#1076;&#1086;&#1083;&#1078;&#1077;&#1085; &#1074;&#1099;&#1083;&#1086;&#1078;&#1080;&#1090;&#1100; &#1084;&#1072;&#1085;&#1091;&#1072;&#1083; &#1095;&#1090;&#1086;&#1073; &#1089;&#1100;&#1092;&#1082;&#1077; &#1087;&#1080;&#1089;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100;
toxic_devil	&#1072; &#1090;&#1072;&#1084; &#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1086; &#1076;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1096;&#1077; &#1087;&#1086;&#1081;&#1076;&#1077;&#1090;
kb9vqf	Why are you upset TokRa_upset?
MutantTurkey	I'll be gone all weekend on a trip to pittsburgh, If i have access to a machine i can ssh and keep working.
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<mode channel="#trinity-desktop" nick="ChanServ" time="2011-02-11T04:56:58Z">+o tbottu </mode>
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Piki	hi
*TokRa salutes Piki
*Piki bows
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<mode channel="#trinity-desktop" nick="ChanServ" time="2011-02-11T15:15:55Z">+o tbottu </mode>
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<mode channel="#trinity-desktop" nick="calvino.freenode.net" time="2011-02-11T15:27:16Z">+o kb9vqf </mode>
<mode channel="#trinity-desktop" nick="tbottu" time="2011-02-11T15:27:17Z">+i </mode>
tbottu	I just saw a lot of joins happen very quickly.  Because of that I set this channel's mode to be Invite Only... I'll set it -i in 5 minutes
tbottu	I just saw a lot of joins happen very quickly.  Because of that I set this channel's mode to be Invite Only... I'll set it -i in 5 minutes
tbottu	I just saw a lot of joins happen very quickly.  Because of that I set this channel's mode to be Invite Only... I'll set it -i in 5 minutes
*tbottu was going to say 'I just saw a lot of joins happen very quickly. Because of that I set this channel's mode to be Invite Only... I'll set it -i in 5 minutes' but has said it too many times today already
<mode channel="#trinity-desktop" nick="tbottu" time="2011-02-11T15:32:17Z">-i </mode>
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*Strangelv has a friend wvho's struggling in vait to turn off the minotior power off. It messes up her keyboard video mouse adapter which seems to not work again until one or both machines ar erebooted...
*Strangelv looks in the bug tracker, but doesn't see anything that's clearyl the problem, let alone a wokraround
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toxic_devil	samelian: &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1074;&#1077;&#1090;
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1085;&#1091;&#1078;&#1085;&#1072; &#1090;&#1074;&#1086;&#1103; &#1087;&#1086;&#1084;&#1086;&#1096;&#1100;
samelian	later, now I must to go
toxic_devil	samelian: ok
toxic_devil	samelian: configure: WARNING: You are attempting to compile Trinity without the Trinity Qt Interface installed. Please install libtqtinterface-dev and try again!
toxic_devil	WHY???
toxic_devil	&#1074;&#1089;&#1077; &#1091;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;
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TokRa	toxic_devil: &#1072; &#1085;&#1077; &#1085;&#1072;&#1076;&#1086; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1074;&#1077; &#1091;&#1082;&#1072;&#1079;&#1099;&#1074;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100;, &#1075;&#1076;&#1077; &#1091;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1086;, &#1085;&#1072;&#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088; --with-tqt=/&#1087;&#1072;&#1087;&#1082;&#1072;/&#1082;&#1091;&#1076;&#1072;/&#1091;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1085;&#1086;&#1074;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1086; &#1080;&#1083;&#1080; &#1085;&#1077;&#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1074; &#1101;&#1090;&#1086;&#1084; &#1088;&#1086;&#1076;&#1077;?
toxic_devil	TokRa: &#1085;&#1077; &#1074; &#1101;&#1090;&#1086;&#1084; &#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1086;
toxic_devil	&#1084;&#1085;&#1091; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1088;&#1072;&#1073; &#1082;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1095;&#1077; &#1085;&#1091;&#1078;&#1077;&#1085;
kb9vqf	Strangelv: Xorg power management is strange to say the least
kb9vqf	I don't think Trinity has any control over it
toxic_devil	kb9vqf: hi
kb9vqf	Hello
toxic_devil	kb9vqf: see??
kb9vqf	OK
kb9vqf	Is this from SVN or the 3.5.12 tarballs?
toxic_devil	kb9vqf: yes
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	Is it from SVN?
toxic_devil	kb9vqf: it is from svn
kb9vqf	OK
kb9vqf	Did you install tqtinterface, arts, and kdelibs from SVN as well?
kb9vqf	And did you use CMake?
toxic_devil	kb9vqf: wait
toxic_devil	I'm not doing it
toxic_devil	My friend is doing
kb9vqf	Oh, OK
kb9vqf	It looks like kdelibs is not installed
kb9vqf	IMHO
toxic_devil	tqtinterface,kdelibs from SVN
toxic_devil	without arts
toxic_devil	./configure ... --without-arts
toxic_devil	kdelibs and tqtinterface over cmake
kb9vqf	And they were all installed to the same prefix?
kb9vqf	samelian: Ever seen this with CMake? ^^^
kb9vqf	"checking if UIC has KDE plugins available... no"
samelian	kb9vqf: what?
kb9vqf	samelian: He seems to be running into the UIC KDE plugins problem when attempting to build kdebase from SVN
kb9vqf	I have not seen this before
kb9vqf	toxic_devil: You are building with Qt3 correct?
kb9vqf	Your friend that is
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toxic_devil	samelian: c qt &#1074;&#1089;&#1077; &#1074;&#1087;&#1086;&#1088;&#1103;&#1076;&#1082;&#1077;
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100; &#1087;&#1088;&#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086;?
samelian	toxic_devil: you using cmake or automake?
kb9vqf	samelian: CMake
samelian	what is problem, actually?
toxic_devil	kdelibs and tqtinterface over cmake
samelian	but what is the problem?
toxic_devil	&#1042;&#1099; &#1095;&#1086; &#1091;&#1087;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1083;&#1080;&#1089;&#1100; ???
toxic_devil	&#1072;&#1074;&#1090;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1085;&#1092; &#1091;&#1078;&#1077; &#1091;&#1084;&#1077;&#1077;&#1090; &#1087;&#1072;&#1088;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1090;&#1088;&#1099; &#1074;&#1080;&#1076;&#1072; -DWITH_*=ON ? ))
toxic_devil	&#1040;???
toxic_devil	&#1082;&#1091; &#1082;&#1091; &#1082;&#1091;
samelian	if you pass parameter -DWITH_*=ON to configure script, this not meaning that you using cmake :)
samelian	cmake don't use configure
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1086;&#1076;&#1085;&#1091; &#1084;&#1080;&#1085;&#1091;&#1090;&#1091;
toxic_devil	&#1103; &#1095;&#1086; &#1090;&#1086; &#1085;&#1077; &#1087;&#1086;&#1081;&#1084;&#1091; &#1082;&#1072;&#1082; &#1086;&#1085; &#1089;&#1086;&#1073;&#1080;&#1088;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090;
toxic_devil	&#1054;,&#1054;
toxic_devil	&#1054;.&#1086;
toxic_devil	&#1093;.&#1093;
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1084;&#1086;&#1081; &#1076;&#1088;&#1091;&#1075; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1083;&#1080;&#1083;&#1089;&#1103; &#1074; &#1082;&#1086;&#1085;&#1089;&#1086;&#1083;&#1100;(((
toxic_devil	^^
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1074;&#1086;&#1086;&#1073;&#1097;&#1077;&#1084;
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1085;&#1072;&#1084; &#1085;&#1077; &#1093;&#1074;&#1072;&#1090;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090; &#1089;&#1083;&#1086;&#1074; &#1095;&#1090;&#1086;&#1073; &#1086;&#1073;&#1100;&#1103;&#1089;&#1085;&#1080;&#1090;&#1100; &#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1084;&#1099; &#1089;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1072;&#1083;&#1080;
toxic_devil	samelian: &#1103; &#1076;&#1091;&#1084;&#1072;&#1102; &#1084;&#1099; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1080; &#1089;&#1087;&#1088;&#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1084;&#1089;&#1103;
samelian	ok
kb9vqf	thanks for handling that :)
toxic_devil	kb9vqf: ^^
toxic_devil	kb9vqf: I hope we have of this is that something will
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	I don't know much about CMake myself
toxic_devil	kb9vqf: Learn Russian :-D
kb9vqf	Hehe
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samelian	kb9vqf: trinity have any class for manipulating sockets?
samelian	i mean, resolving name and connect
kb9vqf	samelian: Yes
kb9vqf	KResolver
kb9vqf	KClientSocket
kb9vqf	KServerSocket
kb9vqf	IIRC
samelian	thx
kb9vqf	np
samelian	it's easy to use system calls, but I want to use trinity API when is possible
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MutantTurkey	o/
*TokRa detects MutantTurkey's presence !
MutantTurkey	hey
MutantTurkey	i luckily have ssh setup so i can work on linux while away from home
MutantTurkey	http://96.245.17.6/
MutantTurkey	there is almost zero php work, just an include for the header and footer. the top panel and link bar are both defined with css.
MutantTurkey	other than that, straight up normal html.
TokRa	I see
MutantTurkey	the website is slow enough already, i saw no reason to make it even worse. Tim mentioned that simplicity was essential
TokRa	Which is the goal to achieve?
MutantTurkey	simple
MutantTurkey	the pages are going to be relatively static.
*TokRa 'd like to see some visual layout, a pictured design if available, to get the main idea and put it on the backend
TokRa	should there be some content management?
MutantTurkey	i say no.
MutantTurkey	the thing with a CMS is that  is is just going to make everything more complicated.
MutantTurkey	these web pages don't really change often.
MutantTurkey	the pages are laid out simply enough to edit by hand.
MutantTurkey	I would understand if we were constantly updating, but the only updates are releases.
MutantTurkey	I think for such an simple website, there is no point of putting a whole CMS on it.
TokRa	if so, is there a need to change the provided content at all?
TokRa	MutantTurkey: your web version looks nice enough to me
MutantTurkey	the code is beautiful
MutantTurkey	well simple at least. I think we need a modern site, but don't need to use any sort of backend.
MutantTurkey	especially since the web server is already slow as heck :/
MutantTurkey	the header has all the links, so it takes care of the problem.
TokRa	and my objective would be... ?
MutantTurkey	no idea.
TokRa	:D
MutantTurkey	I'm not sure why Tim thought i needed help.
*TokRa neither
MutantTurkey	i understand his concern. because I am not good at php.
MutantTurkey	but we don't really need anything complicated for this project.
TokRa	I realize, the php programming is not even needed
MutantTurkey	?
MutantTurkey	how else can we easily include header and footer?
TokRa	I mean, the complicated programming
MutantTurkey	oh
MutantTurkey	samelian is helping me out with css when i have questions. from here mostly though, the layout is finished.
MutantTurkey	I am working on adding the content and converting pages.
MutantTurkey	I was also thinking about transferring certain pages from the wiki to the website, since some don't really belong on the wikil
MutantTurkey	http://96.245.17.6/WIKICONVERT.txt
*TokRa has nothing to do with this then? If I have understood you correctly.
MutantTurkey	I don't think I need your help at this point.
MutantTurkey	if Tim and I decide that we need something more complicated I will ask you.
TokRa	Sure
MutantTurkey	I'm off to eat dinner. Hopefully i can stop in later.
TokRa	:)
MutantTurkey	cya
TokRa	^_^
Xu_R	ARGHH. the Mandriva packager that tired to create Trinity rpms - I'm just looking at them and tearing my hair out &gt;_&lt;
Xu_R	they aren't bad
Xu_R	but the Epoch: 600000000 breaks installations &gt;_&lt;
kb9vqf	Heh
kb9vqf	Sounds like me many years ago
kb9vqf	;-)
Xu_R	correction: 300000001.
Xu_R	adgbfuoasdbf apparently previous mandriva maintainer didn't know how to use it.
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<mode channel="#trinity-desktop" nick="ChanServ" time="2011-02-12T18:40:55Z">+o tbottu </mode>
<mode channel="#trinity-desktop" nick="tbottu" time="2011-02-12T18:42:35Z">+o kb9vqf </mode>
Xu_R	wb kb9vqf
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	Oh, welcome back :)
kb9vqf	Slight network outage last night
kb9vqf	Seems my ISP did not do what they were supposed to do :-P
Xu_R	:P
Xu_R	do they ever XD
kb9vqf	Hehe
Xu_R	kb9vqf: i've been making progress: arts and tqtinterface for fedora and mandriva are going well. still have to fix opensuse, but that shouldn't be a problem
kb9vqf	Glad to hear it
Xu_R	samelian: can you add a dependency check for cmake on arts? It needs to check for the existence of ltdl.h so that it doesn't fail compiling later
Xu_R	kb9vqf: spec restructuring seems to be a big success right now :D once I hit kdebase3, that's the hard part :(
kb9vqf	Yes it is
kb9vqf	Wait until you get to kdepim :-P
Xu_R	oh jeez. xD
samelian	Xu_R: i will
Xu_R	ty samelian :D
*MutantTurkey has joined #trinity-desktop
MutantTurkey	o/
*toxic_devil has joined #trinity-desktop
toxic_devil	hi allllllllll
Xu_R	ohai
toxic_devil	russian like vodka
toxic_devil	and like TDE
Xu_R	o_o?
toxic_devil	TDE &amp; Vodka = Friendship
toxic_devil