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kb9vqf	MutantTurkey
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* kb9vqf stays offline for now due to buggy webirc connection
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kb9vqf	New logs at http://trinitydesktop.org/irc/logs_current.html
kb9vqf	formatting is cleaner/easier to read
kb9vqf	And best of all, tbottu shouldn't drop off the channel every week like before :)
tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Component on bug 69 from system to ubuntu.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=69 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, UNCONFIRMED, Jaunty AMD64 LiveCD Boot Failure
MutantTurkey	nice it works.
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: so we are all set for the whole bugwatch right?
kb9vqf	I believe so...
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: lets hope i can clone this then...
MutantTurkey	I rebooted my connection, still seems to cut out pretty fast
kb9vqf	There are a lot of files there
kb9vqf	I have noticed similar behaviour on my cell phone link as well
MutantTurkey	hmmm it seemed that if i do ctrl+z (i forget what that does, freeze the program in midair i think) and then do fg it will start working agian.
kb9vqf	(granted not with git, but just with normal downloads)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: yes, this is my cell connection :P
MutantTurkey	could i just download the raw files?
MutantTurkey	clone onto my server, then wget the files :P
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: your connection also seems slow
kb9vqf	I don't know if that will work
MutantTurkey	i'll try it nonetheless.
kb9vqf	would it be easier to send over the files you want uploaded in a tar file and I will commit them?
MutantTurkey	lets see if this works then do that.
kb9vqf	my connection may very well be slow :-P
MutantTurkey	this is working so far.
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay this is not going to work
MutantTurkey	I will tar it up.
MutantTurkey	I do not have a way to email you however.
MutantTurkey	can I pm you a link to my website of the tarball?
kb9vqf	yews
kb9vqf	*yes
MutantTurkey	actually no idea how i can do that D:
kb9vqf	well, it can wait I suppose
MutantTurkey	because I am tethered i don't know my ip hrm hold up
kb9vqf	when will you be on a better connection?
MutantTurkey	tuesday
kb9vqf	it can wait until then I would think :)
MutantTurkey	ok :{
MutantTurkey	actually i'll see what i can do
kb9vqf	it's up to you
MutantTurkey	no go.
MutantTurkey	I don't have any way to upload it.
kb9vqf	It's OK
kb9vqf	don't waste your time
kb9vqf	I'll see you on Tuesday :)
MutantTurkey	wait i think i have it
MutantTurkey	nevermind again.
kb9vqf	Like I said don't waste your time
kb9vqf	Here's an idea
kb9vqf	Do you think we could prioritize the bugs by difficulty?
kb9vqf	I know the difficulty isn't set in stone, but simple malfunctions could probably be fixed first
kb9vqf	(apparently simple that is)
kb9vqf	if you want to go through the bugtracker and start making an Etherpad list of simple bugs I would appreciate it
MutantTurkey	hmmm wait we can another boolean reight?
MutantTurkey	i'll see what i can do
kb9vqf	well I was just thinking a separate list on the Etherpad
MutantTurkey	okay.
MutantTurkey	we started that stuff
kb9vqf	ordered by estimated difficulty, simplest ones on top
MutantTurkey	okay.
kb9vqf	I know and then it disappeared :(
kb9vqf	But then again I remember it being pretty badly incomplete...
MutantTurkey	i was starting a small list on the etherpad
kb9vqf	I'll just say for the record that the first Etherpad installation was a test
kb9vqf	I never expected it to be as good a tool as it was
kb9vqf	so I wasn't very careful with it
MutantTurkey	it really is
MutantTurkey	okay i got my friend to email me the thing
MutantTurkey	so i am shooting it to you
kb9vqf	ok, thanks
MutantTurkey	titled thingy
MutantTurkey	my friend didn't understand it at all
kb9vqf	got it
kb9vqf	I'll throw it up on GIT
MutantTurkey	great thanks
MutantTurkey	as of right now i think it fails
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: That's OK; before you work on it more please check it out from GIT and keep updating it in GIT as you fix it :)
kb9vqf	Also, about the arch/master/src directory
kb9vqf	why are there tarballs in there?
MutantTurkey	no idea what that is...
MutantTurkey	oh
kb9vqf	can I just delete it?
MutantTurkey	sure
kb9vqf	ok
MutantTurkey	okay, going to look through bugs.
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Uploaded
kb9vqf	want the link?
MutantTurkey	got it
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	great
MutantTurkey	easy bugs... hrm
MutantTurkey	can't seem to find any hah
MutantTurkey	so is the etherpad good to go for usage?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	it is stable
MutantTurkey	passwords and such are the same?
kb9vqf	and will be subject to scheduled backup now
kb9vqf	I sent new invitations to you and Xu_R
kb9vqf	oh wait, you don't have Email :-P
MutantTurkey	yeah :P
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	I don't know how to force it
MutantTurkey	i might be able to do it on my phone
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: are easy bugs also enhancements?
MutantTurkey	there are some ones i see that are probably pretty simple
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tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Component on bug 411 from kdelibs to ubuntu.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=411 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kdelibs4c2a-trinity "provides" missing to kdelibs4c2a
tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Component on bug 376 from system to ubuntu.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=376 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Unable to install 10.10 over 9.04
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kb9vqf	sorry, webirc froze up on me again
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: i don't really see that many "easy easy" ones
MutantTurkey	no kvirc?
kb9vqf	if an enhancement is easy then feel free to add it
kb9vqf	maybe the enhancements should be on a separate list
MutantTurkey	yes
kb9vqf	with that list being ordered as well from easy to hard
MutantTurkey	also i think i am going to mark some more important
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	maybe another list ordered by importance
kb9vqf	bugzilla can do that
MutantTurkey	i think some of those ubuntu are pretty critical
kb9vqf	so fix the priority fields I guess :)
MutantTurkey	yeah
kb9vqf	I think all of the bugs are set to medium priority ATM
kb9vqf	kvirc is in Trinity
kb9vqf	must be an old bug
MutantTurkey	no i meant, why are you using the webchat?
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kb9vqf	I'm on a different computer right now
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: alright bud. I am so tired i am unproductive. I'll talk to you tuesday when my internet is bacvk
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kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: I'm on a different computer right now, so I don't have Konversation available
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* Xu_R whistles as he reads the logs... oh damn, it actually extends past the buffer this time >_>
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Space_Man	kb9vqf: is your power back?
kb9vqf	YES!
kb9vqf	As luck would have it the utility put us on the top of the list for restoration
kb9vqf	(or pretty near it)
kb9vqf	over 800,000 perople still are without power
kb9vqf	*people
kb9vqf	Xu_R|ZNC: Power's back way ahead of schedule
kb9vqf	There is still a chance that portions of the electric grid could fail as power is restored to other customers AFAIK
kb9vqf	so if I drop back offline please don't be alarmed
kb9vqf	For anyone interested in a synopsis of the unusually strong weather at the Trinity web services location here's a graphic from a local TV station
kb9vqf	http://blog.chicagoweathercenter.com/FEATGRAPH071211.jpg
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Borg^Queen	gn
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: having more connectivity issues?
MutantTurkey	also anon.kde.org sucks.
kb9vqf	Internet here is absolutely horrid
kb9vqf	I got a helpful call from my ISP yesterday letting me know that they will be doing "major" maintinance in a few hours
kb9vqf	"helpful" /sarcasm
kb9vqf	Seems ol' Murphy is out to get me
kb9vqf	My hunch is that their network was severely damaged yesterday by the storms
kb9vqf	given that their call was about 6 hours later....we had registered 80MPH sustained(!) winds during the derecho event
kb9vqf	Utility company called it "blitzkreig" :-P
kb9vqf	*blitzkreig rather
kb9vqf	We will need to get some kind of load balancing in place at some point in the future if this type of stuff becomes common place
kb9vqf	Illinois is hurting for money as a whole and I suspect that some of the bad economy is eating into the utilities' preventative maintenance budgets
MutantTurkey	there have been a whole array of storms lately
MutantTurkey	still, doesn't give an excuse in my book for poor service.
kb9vqf	you should see the pictures...
kb9vqf	hang on, I'll put one on Imagebin :)
MutantTurkey	I always give the "we are actually doing everything we can" not "we are doing everything we can/
MutantTurkey	at my job, as meanial as working as a 711 clerk... I seriously try to provided maximum service and take into account the entire store at once.
MutantTurkey	so when companies tell me "they are doing everything they can" while i am watching their maintenance crews are sitting outside my sev eating and carrying on for a good part of the hour on thier clock...
MutantTurkey	anyway. I digress. I am entirely fed up with my lousy service. my router has not shown up yet.
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	one sec while I get the link...
kb9vqf	well, at my speeds right now, maybe more like a minute :-P
MutantTurkey	i'm rocking off of 3g, so it'll take about  a week to download
kb9vqf	:-P
kb9vqf	after the storms my camera and I went around documenting the damage
MutantTurkey	that impressive? huh.
MutantTurkey	no household damage i hope.
kb9vqf	trees everywhere
kb9vqf	yes, some fell on houses
kb9vqf	and cars
kb9vqf	some of the wires just snapped from the wind alone
MutantTurkey	yeah. weirdly enough my neighbor has had 4/5 tree fall in like 3 years.
kb9vqf	the corn fields were *flattened*
kb9vqf	if my connection were better I'd upload a few pics
MutantTurkey	last year it came across the street, onto the wires in front of my house, and as just leaning on the wire.
MutantTurkey	they roped it off with caution tape and left it hanging for a few days.
kb9vqf	:eek:
MutantTurkey	:|
* kb9vqf wonders if he sent a 64x64 pixel thumbnail if *that* might make it through :-P
kb9vqf	Oh and it's also fun to have the lights flickering all day
kb9vqf	probably as portions of the grid are switched back in
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: http://imagebin.org/162840
MutantTurkey	makes sense.
kb9vqf	damage in a residential area
MutantTurkey	ouch. that's not pretty.
kb9vqf	No kidding
kb9vqf	I have more pics from elsewhere
MutantTurkey	one thing i always wondered (besides the topic)
kb9vqf	Try a huge iron Farm&Fleet sign bent to the ground
MutantTurkey	is why the H-E-double hocky sticks do all word processors lack tabbing features? it's ridiculous.
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I am glad i live on the east coast. as i say "it's boring and everything about NJ sucks. but hey, we don't get natural disasters"
kb9vqf	except the "Perfect Storm" of '92
kb9vqf	IIRC that hit the entire East coast
MutantTurkey	also in like 98
MutantTurkey	mostly our issues are minor flooding but that is about it.
kb9vqf	s/1992/1991/g
kb9vqf	:)
* kb9vqf sometimes gets dates slightly off
kb9vqf	This has certainly been a year for extremes
MutantTurkey	I am awful enough with dates as is.
kb9vqf	The south gets record tornadoes and then broils
kb9vqf	Texas is in record drought
MutantTurkey	global warming eh?
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	Actually this is not all that abnormal
MutantTurkey	actually not at all. but more like "the built up 150 years of environmental distruction.
kb9vqf	People forget that the weather is an average
MutantTurkey	global warming doesn't exist.
kb9vqf	right
MutantTurkey	but the reasons for katrina, flooding and such
MutantTurkey	is all because we destroy our natural barriers.
kb9vqf	are statistical likelihoods
kb9vqf	take my area for instance
kb9vqf	we have not had a tornado for many decades
kb9vqf	yet on average we should have one every decade or so
kb9vqf	(a big one that is)
kb9vqf	so people get complacent and when the statistics finally catch up with them things get ugly
kb9vqf	Just my $0.02 ;-)
MutantTurkey	oddly, we have had a few in philly in the past few years.
MutantTurkey	actually one touched down in my suburb, while i was in middle school.
kb9vqf	:eek:
kb9vqf	There was one back in the 60s here that completely destroyed a middle school in my general area
kb9vqf	They are nothing to mess with
kb9vqf	we still have a strict building code as a result
MutantTurkey	which is good.
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTurkey	all buildings in the midwest are brick right?
kb9vqf	No, surprisingly
MutantTurkey	all of ours are crappy and thrown together with wood and glue.
MutantTurkey	really? I've been to more of the missouri area
MutantTurkey	mostly brick their
kb9vqf	but near major tornado touchdowns they do require reinforced roofs and such
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: in comparison. there are none hear, and only brick ones are the historical ones.
kb9vqf	here they are McMansions with brick facades and cheap vinyl siding on the sides and rear
kb9vqf	They look REALLY unsafe if a tornado hit :-P
MutantTurkey	basically.
kb9vqf	nothing like bricks flying through your siding and foam insulation...
kb9vqf	anyway I think I am far enough OT for the time being :)
kb9vqf	Hopefully my power and ISP connection will stabilise in the next few days
kb9vqf	None of us has the resources to be another Google and distribute services over a dedicated fiber line
kb9vqf	Same goes for your VPS
kb9vqf	if a severe event hit the datacenter you'd be down too ;-)
MutantTurkey	what about it?
MutantTurkey	except that they have 3 data centers! :D
MutantTurkey	(i think at least)
kb9vqf	And they are all in sync?
MutantTurkey	not sure, I will ask now.
kb9vqf	That kind of technology has not been developed yet
kb9vqf	it would require insane bandwidth AFAIK
MutantTurkey	they have it.
MutantTurkey	it's in germany
MutantTurkey	I dont know how that is for weather.
kb9vqf	I would be very surprised if your VPS has transparent failover between datacenters
kb9vqf	Germany is very stable weather-wise
kb9vqf	Nothing of interest
kb9vqf	the mountains tend to destroy convective structures
kb9vqf	While tornadoes are not unheard of there, it is nothing like the Midwest of the United States ;-)
kb9vqf	This connection is driving me nuts, so I'll sign off for now
kb9vqf	Thanks for the chat
MutantTurkey	yep
MutantTurkey	I'll be around tomorrow working hours if you want to do more admin related bug work.
kb9vqf	ok, sounds good
kb9vqf	I just got done tracing more memory corruption in kdesktop
kb9vqf	fixes are in SVN
MutantTurkey	excellent.
kb9vqf	and tbottu isn't dying, even though the connection is horrid :)
MutantTurkey	Tomorrow i am going to track down that problem of building on arch, hopefully get that sorted out.
kb9vqf	So that is a major improvement
kb9vqf	Sounds good
kb9vqf	samelian was here not that long ago
MutantTurkey	tbottu seems a bit more stable lately.
tbottu	MutantTurkey: Error: "seems" is not a valid command.
MutantTurkey	:P
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: me and samelian seem to keep missing eachother.
kb9vqf	yeah
kb9vqf	I can't help too much
kb9vqf	(mainly because it works on my systems)
MutantTurkey	we need samelian, he understands cmake :)
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kb9vqf	DNS changes are propogating through the Internet as I type this
kb9vqf	Expect all services to be restored in about 24 hours
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Xu_R	i spy a kb9vqf and a tbottu
Xu_R	:o
kb9vqf	:)
Xu_R	servers connected now? :D
kb9vqf	No guaruntees that everything is fully online yet, but from what I can see everything is....
kb9vqf	if you see something down/unavailable please poke me
Xu_R	I see it online :D
kb9vqf	:)
Xu_R	:D
kb9vqf	Some info is on the Etherpad
kb9vqf	the last problem was that my ISP cut a fiber cable :-P
Space_Man	lol
kb9vqf	so we should probably have a meeting in a week or two
Xu_R	it's supposed to be tuesday...
kb9vqf	hmmm, ok
kb9vqf	I don't know how much progress others made, but obviously I wasn't able to do what I wanted to yet
Xu_R	ok, I may postpone it.
kb9vqf	specifically I am still waiting on a full Qt3/Qt4 rebuild of the latest Trinity SVN
kb9vqf	no power and no Internet made that all but impossible
Xu_R	oh. that's almost guaranting it
Xu_R	*guaranteeing (or however you spell it)
kb9vqf	yep, that's right
kb9vqf	I'll check back later...if anyone sees any services down please poke me
kb9vqf	gotta get the build farm running that build again....
MutantTurkey	o/
MutantTurkey	they!
MutantTurkey	hey'
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: tim i got backups working of kde.org
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: http://mutantturkey.com/mirrorlog.html
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Borg^Queen	hi hi
MutantTurkey	hey
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Piki	hi
Piki	yay, the sites back! :-)
kb9vqf	And ahead of schedule too :)
kb9vqf	See the July meeting etherpad for more info on the outages
Piki	btw what version of autotools did 3.5.12 need?
kb9vqf	autoconf 2.63 IIRC
kb9vqf	<= 2.63
Piki	i'm just about ready to start building, i just need to grab autotools and start building
Piki	kb9vqf: is a certain version of automake required?
kb9vqf	no
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Piki	the qt tarball i need is qt-x11-free-3.3.8b.tar.xx ?
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: hey, future comment about the channel
MutantTurkey	when you have an outage, update the topic so people know :)
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MutantTurkey	samelian: hey I need some help building kdebase
MutantTurkey	I am having trouble making it find the dbus tqt path i think
MutantTurkey	I tried adding it to my CMAKE_INCLUDE_PATH but it still doesn't see it.
samelian	what kind of trouble?
MutantTurkey	it gives me the dbus-tqt cannot be  found on your system
MutantTurkey	but i exported it with export CMAKE_INCLUDE_PATH=/opt/qt/include/tqt:/opt/trinity/include/dbus-1.0:/opt/trinity/include/dbus-1.0/dbus:/opt/trinity/include:/opt/trinity/include/libkrandr
samelian	check error log
MutantTurkey	http://ix.io/1Nk
MutantTurkey	It doesn't seem to include it
samelian	where is located your connection.h?
MutantTurkey	/opt/trinity/include
samelian	in /opt/trinity/include/dbus/connection.h ?
MutantTurkey	/opt/trinity/include/dbus-1.0/dbus/
samelian	where is dbus-tqt.pc?
MutantTurkey	in uh
MutantTurkey	/opt/trinity/lib/pkgconfig
samelian	and cmake knows that .pc file is located in /opt/trinity/lib/pkgconfig?
MutantTurkey	export PKG_CONFIG_PATH=:/opt/trinity/lib/pkgconfig:/opt/qt/lib/pkgconfig:
samelian	show me output of pkg-config --cflags dbus-tqt
MutantTurkey	-I/opt/trinity/include
samelian	but pkg-config --cflags dbus-1-tqt ?
MutantTurkey	nope
samelian	hmm, seems that kdebase cmake is not adapted for dbus-1-tqt
MutantTurkey	ah
samelian	try to replace pkg_search_module( DBUS dbus-1 )
samelian	with pkg_search_module( DBUS dbus-tqt )
MutantTurkey	where is that?
samelian	ConfigureChecks.cmake
MutantTurkey	oh in CMrighright
MutantTurkey	still errors out
MutantTurkey	maybe dbus-tqt-1
samelian	I don't think so, dbus/connection.h is provided by dbus-tqt
MutantTurkey	hrm
samelian	MutantTurkey: you have pkg_search_module( DBUS dbus-tqt ), of smth else?
MutantTurkey	i have dbus-tqt
samelian	I see, but the variable is DBUS, or smth else?
MutantTurkey	i have that
samelian	paste entire ConfigureChecks
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	http://ix.io/1N1
MutantTurkey	http://ix.io/1Nl
MutantTurkey	i apologize
MutantTurkey	they look the same xD
samelian	the error is the same?
MutantTurkey	let me retry
samelian	show me output of cmake as well
MutantTurkey	http://ix.io/1Nm
samelian	and error log/
MutantTurkey	OK
MutantTurkey	http://ix.io/1Nn
samelian	hmm
samelian	are you sure you have /opt/trinity/include/dbus?
MutantTurkey	let me verify
MutantTurkey	no not there
MutantTurkey	there is
samelian	but?
MutantTurkey	/opt/trinity/include/dbus-1.0/
samelian	should be in /opt/trinity/include/dbus
MutantTurkey	okay i wonder why it is in dbus-1.0
MutantTurkey	it should be in dbus-1.0
MutantTurkey	that is where it installs default
MutantTurkey	do you want me to move it?
MutantTurkey	either way, i included /opt/trinity/include/dbus-1.0/
samelian	dbus should be installed where .pc file indicate
samelian	otherwise can't be found
MutantTurkey	samelian: I'll look at the pc file
MutantTurkey	isn't the pc file generated?
samelian	it is
kb9vqf	Good idea MutantTurkey :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: yeah.
MutantTurkey	samelian: hrm no luck then
MutantTurkey	can i regenerate it or something/
samelian	.pc file is based on INCLUDE_INSTALL_DIR
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: do  you know why it would be in "dbus-1.0" instead of dbus?
MutantTurkey	samelian: okay
MutantTurkey	for tqt
kb9vqf	I don't know; I haven't looked at that code in quite a while :-/
samelian	how you installed dbus-tqt?
MutantTurkey	samelian: what do you mean?
samelian	is installed by make install or somehow manually?
MutantTurkey	with my pkgbuild
MutantTurkey	its packaged
samelian	aha
MutantTurkey	my INCLUDE_INSTALL_DIR is /opt/trinity
samelian	maybe your package did not respect CMAKE_PREFIX
MutantTurkey	?
samelian	ah, I see a problem
samelian	install( FILES
samelian	dbus-qt.h message.h connection.h server.h
samelian	DESTINATION ${INCLUDE_INSTALL_DIR}/dbus-1.0/dbus )
samelian	i'm not sure why is that
samelian	kb9vqf: you did not changed DESTINATION?
samelian	I don't remember if I changed it
kb9vqf	I don't remember either
samelian	hehe
kb9vqf	all I know is it works here (TM)
kb9vqf	:)
samelian	ok, I will check it today later
kb9vqf	thanks
samelian	right now my mind is too fuzzy, there is 7:00 AM at this moment :)
kb9vqf	I'm currently in the middle of a rebuild that was interrupted due to Monday's derecho
samelian	I can't sleep
MutantTurkey	I am up :D
MutantTurkey	so I am at this point, just waiting for that file change?
MutantTurkey	i'll just do it myself
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: wait should it be ${INCLUDE_INSTALL_DIR}/dbus/?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: can anyone clone the git?
MutantTurkey	anyway actually i am going to sleep. I'll sort this out later.
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MutantTurkey	samelian: so any idea about this problem i am having?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: how do i clone our git? :\
MutantTurkey	without a user
MutantTurkey	just no user prefixing the url/
MutantTurkey	?
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: remove your username from it
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MutantTurkey	Xu_R: okay yeah i am just going t odo that
MutantTurkey	gotta convert all the package building systems to git D:
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: hey important
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: on the archlinux developers mailing list
MutantTurkey	they are discussing who isgoing to maintain qt3 and kdelibs3
MutantTurkey	i privately emailed the guy earier about qt3
MutantTurkey	but kdelibs3 is a different story
MutantTurkey	http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2011-July/020985.html
MutantTurkey	are we compat with the old kde3libs? i am not suree how this works
MutantTurkey	but, this could be our foot in the door to getting supported officially by a distro
MutantTurkey	Xu_R|ZNC: ^ also see this and tell me what you tink
kb9vqf	We are NOT compatible with the old kdelibs in terms of the ABI
kb9vqf	the API will allow the older KDE3 apps to be compiled against the Trinity kdelibs in theory, but I've never tried it
kb9vqf	the fact that we use TQt instead of Qt3 may throw a monkey wrench into that idea
MutantTurkey	yeah.
ar	kb9vqf: TQt is the wrapper around qt4?
MutantTurkey	but qt3 is api compat right?
MutantTurkey	ar: yes and qt3
MutantTurkey	against all qt versions
kb9vqf	yes, qt3 is compatible
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: because we could be qt3 upstream
kb9vqf	that is OK with me
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: so in theory we could compile to the, but not neccesarily?
kb9vqf	The goal is to pull all of the disparate Qt3 patches to create a central, up-to-date Qt3 repository that can then be extended as neccessary
MutantTurkey	yes
kb9vqf	"compile to the"?
MutantTurkey	if they recompile (thats probably okay) will it work?
MutantTurkey	recompile gaainst new kde3libs
kb9vqf	possibly
kb9vqf	I can't guarantee it
kb9vqf	the reason is that some member names changed in TQt3
kb9vqf	In all likelihood the original Qt3 member names will "bleed through" and the code will compile, but I am not comfortable stating that it *will* work at this point
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	i am recommending they don't use our kdelibs3
MutantTurkey	did you see that link
MutantTurkey	?
kb9vqf	looking at it now
kb9vqf	can they try it?
MutantTurkey	i emailed it
MutantTurkey	to you
kb9vqf	ok
MutantTurkey	my response
MutantTurkey	look at it and see if it's okay
kb9vqf	I'm just not sure what to do here :)
kb9vqf	we're not stable yet
kb9vqf	(will be fall before 3.5.13 is released)
kb9vqf	Just a couple of nits
kb9vqf	1.) TQt is not Tqt ;-)
kb9vqf	2.) kde3 is not Trinity
MutantTurkey	i know.
MutantTurkey	thats what i mean
kb9vqf	3.) I would put in a recommendation that they look into switching to the Trinity-provided kdelibs/kdebase/kde* modules
kb9vqf	just for the simple fact that they are having build problems now with the old stock KDE3 sources
kb9vqf	Just a thought
MutantTurkey	so i should recommend that when we release stable, they should just switch?
kb9vqf	it won't be as easy as "just switch", primarily due to CMake being used to build arts/kdelibs/kdebase, but yes
kb9vqf	it shouldn't be too bad
kb9vqf	I changed the Ubuntu build scripts in about a day
kb9vqf	(to handle CMake and the tqtinterface deps that is)
MutantTurkey	but if i have package builds they can just steam them
MutantTurkey	because i would pu the mup for them to steal :0
kb9vqf	ah, ok :)
kb9vqf	yes, in that case switching would be easy
MutantTurkey	read that
MutantTurkey	sent another
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: i think that should be the one i send off, unless there is any other problems?
kb9vqf	Looks good
kb9vqf	I only have one suggestion
MutantTurkey	yes?
kb9vqf	The Qt3 repository is actually ready to use, combining all the patches I am aware of
MutantTurkey	okay so they should use it?
MutantTurkey	what is the link?
kb9vqf	I would say yes
kb9vqf	http://git.trinitydesktop.org/viewgit/index.php?a=tree&p=Trinity%20Desktop%20Environment&hb=HEAD&f=main/dependencies/qt3
kb9vqf	that's the Webgit
kb9vqf	an actual checkout command would be:
kb9vqf	git clone http://scm.trinitydesktop.org/scm/git/tde/main/dependencies/qt3
kb9vqf	or there's a handy .tar.gz link on the bottom of the webgit page ;-)
kb9vqf	As more patches are applied they will be listed in the changes-3.3.8d file
MutantTurkey	ok
kb9vqf	If there are any compilation issues they should just poke me here or send an Email to the trinity-devel list
kb9vqf	IIRC a compilation test was already run successfully on an non-Ubuntu system by someone on the mailing list
kb9vqf	so I'm not expecting any problems
MutantTurkey	http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2011-July/020969.html sent
MutantTurkey	gottta go drop off paper work at HR
kb9vqf	ok, thanks
MutantTurkey	i'll stop by later.
kb9vqf	sure
kb9vqf	hopefully we start getting some downstream distro support now... :)
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Borg^Queen	hello humans, AIs and others
MutantTurkey	blech
Borg^Queen	?
MutantTurkey	running around hot downtown filling out paperwork
MutantTurkey	very gross
Borg^Queen	ugh really, how hot is it?
Borg^Queen	its 35c here
MutantTurkey	uh i would say about 35c
MutantTurkey	which by itself is bearable
MutantTurkey	but the humidity
MutantTurkey	is terrible.
Borg^Queen	the tell is, if you believe the weather monkeys, its going to get up about 38c here today
Borg^Queen	I doubt it, since its already cooling off
Borg^Queen	I hate humidity, makes for a bad hair day, and mine is very long
Borg^Queen	I end up looking like a rabid brillo pad
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Borg^Queen	hi kb9vqf
kb9vqf	Hello :)
Borg^Queen	Got some feed back from my testers yesterday
Borg^Queen	"Great job!
Borg^Queen	"
kb9vqf	:D
Borg^Queen	That was pretty much it, they went back to using it
kb9vqf	VERY glad to hear that!
Borg^Queen	T he only complaints where about in ubuntu in general
Borg^Queen	Its a well earned feed back
kb9vqf	Yes, Ubuntu is fast becoming a steaming pile of something nasty :-P
Borg^Queen	ooh lol
kb9vqf	Too unstable, too much API breakage for no reason
kb9vqf	Case in point: I do video editing in my spare time
kb9vqf	and use IEEE1394
kb9vqf	Guess what Natty did?
Borg^Queen	Its called "Replicate Fade" a genetics term, meaning errors resulting from making copies of copies
kb9vqf	They moved the /dev/raw1394 device to /dev/fw0....for no reason whatsoever!
Borg^Queen	Umm I use fW too
Borg^Queen	arrrgh
Borg^Queen	seriously?
kb9vqf	Let's just say it breaks Kino and other apps
kb9vqf	and yes :-P
kb9vqf	I am serious
Borg^Queen	Well I do my video editing, which is a lot, on Ark linux, which sadly doesn't have TDE yet. But the founding devel is very interested. Come to #arklinux to meet him if you have the time and inclination.
kb9vqf	A symbolic link will fix the issue (ln -s /dev/fw0 /dev/raw1394), but you have to do that on every boot
kb9vqf	Debian is starting to look more and more attractive
kb9vqf	I have Debian boxes that give me no trouble whatsoever
Borg^Queen	I was on debian but I wanted a pure kde distro, arklinux was and still is the best distro I've used. I have it so tweaked I can do 80% of my work from konq
Borg^Queen	I have video, audio, graphics,  file management and more servicemenus
kb9vqf	nice
Borg^Queen	I've been experimenting with dvd, bluray ripping and converting to mkv
Borg^Queen	the cli tools are SO easy
kb9vqf	You're lucky you aren't in the USA
* kb9vqf wishes he could do that
Borg^Queen	I am
kb9vqf	BTW can you check the rsync mirror of Trinity for me?
Borg^Queen	how
kb9vqf	see if you can get a directory list from rsync.trinitydesktop.org
kb9vqf	e.g. with rsync rsync://rsync.trinitydesktop.org
* kb9vqf is fixing some routing issues
Borg^Queen	ok hang on, don't use rsync very often
Borg^Queen	rsync: getaddrinfo: rsync.trinitydesktop.org 873: Name or service not known
Borg^Queen	rsync error: error in socket IO (code 10) at clientserver.c(122) [receiver=3.0.2]
Borg^Queen	kb9vqf: you can add all kinds of multimedia services because you are not a commercial entity
* kb9vqf was afraid of that
kb9vqf	hang on
* kb9vqf mutters something about keeping illegal topics off this channel
kb9vqf	:)
Borg^Queen	aye
kb9vqf	OK, please try the rsync again...
Borg^Queen	one moment
Borg^Queen	same error
Borg^Queen	perhaps I'm getting the command wrong
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	no
kb9vqf	I was playing with the routing and messed it up
Borg^Queen	give me an exact command
Borg^Queen	I did that last night took down my entire network until 10 am this morning
kb9vqf	Borg^Queen: OK, try one more time
kb9vqf	rsync rsync://rsync.trinitydesktop.org
Borg^Queen	same error
kb9vqf	??
kb9vqf	That should have worked
kb9vqf	what is the error?
Borg^Queen	the way I do it is I open a terminal into the dir where I have the iso, is that wrong?
Borg^Queen	rsync: getaddrinfo: rsync.trinitydesktop.org 873: Name or service not known
Borg^Queen	rsync error: error in socket IO (code 10) at clientserver.c(122) [receiver=3.0.2]
kb9vqf	Sounds like a DNS malfunction
kb9vqf	What does ping rsync.trinitydesktop.org show?
Borg^Queen	one moment
Borg^Queen	ping: unknown host rsync.trinitydesktop.org
Borg^Queen	let me test me ping functions
Borg^Queen	its working
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	I will have to think for a few minutes
Borg^Queen	sorry
kb9vqf	Borg^Queen: OK, try again please...
Borg^Queen	ok
Borg^Queen	same both rsync and ping
kb9vqf	rsync still failing?
Borg^Queen	is trinity site down?
Borg^Queen	yes on rsync and ping as well
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Borg^Queen	There goes the neihbourhood
kb9vqf	Ah, there we go I think
Borg^Queen	There goes the neighborhood even
Borg^Queen	check?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	I confused it with two gateways :-P
kb9vqf	(accidentally)
Borg^Queen	not working
Borg^Queen	maybe I'm doing something wrong?
kb9vqf	worked on a remote system I have access to
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	post the command?
Borg^Queen	ping rsync.trinitydesktop.org &  ping rsync.trinitydesktop.org are the commands I'm using
kb9vqf	Oh, ping may not work
kb9vqf	I was just making sure it resolved the DNS entry
kb9vqf	in fact IIRC ping is blocked
kb9vqf	what about rsync?
Xu_R	shush Borg^Queen. :P
Borg^Queen	same error as before
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Can you try?
Xu_R	kb9vqf: http://forum.mandriva.com/en/viewtopic.php?f=181&t=128274&p=848036#p848036 have you seen this?
kb9vqf	rsync rsync://rsync.trinitydesktop.org
Borg^Queen	same
Xu_R	nope
Xu_R	doesn't work here
kb9vqf	failing?
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	oh, duh
kb9vqf	I gave the wrong URL
kb9vqf	sorry
* kb9vqf needs more coffee
Borg^Queen	>:
Xu_R	xD
Borg^Queen	lol
Borg^Queen	ok brb
kb9vqf	rsync rsync://rsync.pearsoncomputing.net
MutantTurkey	what's up with rsync?
kb9vqf	The mirroring system broke after the IP change
Borg^Queen	ok working
Xu_R	there we go
MutantTurkey	oh D:
Xu_R	that works xD
Borg^Queen	brb
kb9vqf	So the mirrors should sync again...that's good
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Can you try another test for me?
Xu_R	sure
kb9vqf	Try to actually *pull* some files from that rsync server
kb9vqf	I need to make sure the bandwidth settings are OK
kb9vqf	Let me know when you have initiated the download so I can peer at the charts
Xu_R	ok
kb9vqf	it's active?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: sent that email off, still no word back yet no idea why.
kb9vqf	give them time :)
MutantTurkey	indeed
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Not seeing your download traffic yet
Xu_R	yea, hold on
Xu_R	router's been screwing me up all weekend
kb9vqf	oh, ok
kb9vqf	I just need a short burst for a minute or so
Borg^Queen	ok back
Xu_R	got that short burst?
kb9vqf	no
kb9vqf	I was waiting for a poke
kb9vqf	sorry
kb9vqf	try again?
Xu_R	get anything?
Xu_R	because my server is seeing yours and pulling now
kb9vqf	yes, I see your traffic
kb9vqf	It's in the wrong spot on my end
kb9vqf	hang on while I reconfigure something
Xu_R	ok
Xu_R	stopping and waiting
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Try again please
Xu_R	starting
kb9vqf	OK, much better
kb9vqf	everything looks OK now
Xu_R	ok
kb9vqf	thanks
Xu_R	terminating
kb9vqf	BTW please don't use that address unless you have a mirror to add to the system
Xu_R	kb9vqf: ok. i'm not using it anyway.
kb9vqf	When the primary mirrors start pulling that link will swamp very quickly :)
Xu_R	xD I figured
Xu_R	kb9vqf: so did you see this? http://forum.mandriva.com/en/viewtopic.php?f=181&t=128274&p=848036#p848036
Borg^Queen	I leave the mirrors to the pros
kb9vqf	Xu_R: yes I did
Borg^Queen	Xu_R: I read it, what about it?
kb9vqf	so it looks like there are spec files "out there in the Ether"?
kb9vqf	want to pull them and try building Trinity with them? (hint hint)
Xu_R	kb9vqf: yea... I want to see what he did
Xu_R	except I need to see if that fix can be used to build the latest SVN too.
kb9vqf	If they're good clone them to our GIT repo
Xu_R	Borg^Queen: that is supposed to allow the old autotools system to build Trinity
Xu_R	with newer autoconf versions
Borg^Queen	I thought we were going to all cmake
Borg^Queen	I hate autotools
Xu_R	Borg^Queen: we're not stalled on it anymore, so if you can still use it, it's an advantage to have a fallback
Borg^Queen	true, good point
Xu_R	I haven't heard from anyone on the July Meeting except kb9vqf... *glare*
kb9vqf	Xu_R: I patched Automake as best as I could some time ago
kb9vqf	i.e. most things build
kb9vqf	arts is NOT one of them
kb9vqf	but since we have CMake for Arts I don't really care
Borg^Queen	does arts do anything anymore?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	it's still needed
kb9vqf	it does seem quite stable IMHO
kb9vqf	I have had no problems with it since 3.5.11
Xu_R	ok
Borg^Queen	I never had any problems with it, but everyone says its been replaced
Borg^Queen	?
kb9vqf	with what?
kb9vqf	pulseaudio?
kb9vqf	that *does* give me problems on a near-daily asis
kb9vqf	*basis
kb9vqf	AFAIK there is no viable replacement for arts
Borg^Queen	I never got it to work, and phonon keeps crashing
kb9vqf	I think the "arts is dead" stuff is wishful thinking
Borg^Queen	A lot of kde4 is wishful thinking, honestly
kb9vqf	as in it was replaced under KDE4 with an unstable chunk of new software
kb9vqf	:)
Borg^Queen	case in point
Xu_R	lol
Borg^Queen	what lol its true
Xu_R	I know
MutantTurkey	yes! finally got all my paperwork done with the HR department :)
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: :D
MutantTurkey	:D :D
MutantTurkey	but now i actually have to work D:
Borg^Queen	lol
Xu_R	hey, kb9vqf: could you give Borg^Queen git access? I want her to help me with packaging for RPM-based distros
kb9vqf	sure :)
Borg^Queen	I stink at that
kb9vqf	Can I have a real name and an Email address?
Xu_R	Borg^Queen: even if it's testing...? lol
Borg^Queen	Kate Draven / borgqueen4@gmail.com
MutantTurkey	SSN and phone number and bank #'s to
MutantTurkey	:p
kb9vqf	OK
kb9vqf	No
Xu_R	LOL
Borg^Queen	Oh I can test, I can break and complain about anything
Borg^Queen	what
Xu_R	as you are notorious for doing that ;P
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: >:
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: is it possible that we could have some sort of developers area for the site? as a portal
kb9vqf	Remember we are a desktop project, meaning that we should at least know who is committing what for security reasons
Borg^Queen	true
Xu_R	kb9vqf: and for good reasons too.
MutantTurkey	i mean just like a page that links to all the other ones
Borg^Queen	kb9vqf: I'
MutantTurkey	because we have cgit, etherpad, etc
Borg^Queen	I'm glad you said that
Xu_R	speaking of Etherpad, is the July meeting tomorrow?
kb9vqf	time out, time out :)
kb9vqf	too much text
Xu_R	XD
Xu_R	brb, my contacts are getting blurry... D:
Borg^Queen	gross
kb9vqf	yes, a portal would be nice
MutantTurkey	and a maybe "phonebook" so to speak
kb9vqf	I don't have time to iron out what should be on it
kb9vqf	want to thrown up an Etherpad with what you guys want to seee?
MutantTurkey	more like a contact page for us devels so other people have emails and such
kb9vqf	*see?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: i can do it
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	then just Email it to me or something
kb9vqf	re: the meeting
kb9vqf	tomorrow may not be the best time
kb9vqf	how about a week from tomorrow?
Xu_R	back
Xu_R	yes, gross D:
Xu_R	kb9vqf: so postpone it a week? ok
kb9vqf	yes, please
MutantTurkey	http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/7
kb9vqf	OK, Email with account info sent
kb9vqf	Borg^Queen: ^^^
Borg^Queen	ah ok thank you
kb9vqf	Let me know when you have changed your password and I will grant commit access
kb9vqf	Do you want access to just the packaging repo or the source code as well?
Borg^Queen	very good, a little busy at the moment, can it wait a bit?
kb9vqf	sure
kb9vqf	just poke me or Email me when done
Borg^Queen	whatever Xu_R needs, I'm going to test whatever he packages
Xu_R	:D
Borg^Queen	and there's the smirk
Xu_R	teehee
Borg^Queen	He sees his opportunity to torture me
Xu_R	no, borgy, I will not install malware -_-
Borg^Queen	lol
Borg^Queen	I was taking a sip of water when the popped up
Borg^Queen	I almost did a spit take into the fan
Xu_R	*when the popped up?
Borg^Queen	it rather
Borg^Queen	[15:40] <Xu_R> no, borgy, I will not install malware -_-
Xu_R	oh xD
Borg^Queen	square kb and I uses ergos
Borg^Queen	brb
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Borg^Queen	hi
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Borg^Queen	wb
MutantTurkey	thanks ran into a bit of comptuer trouble
Xu_R	wb
Xu_R	ah, i'm late.
Borg^Queen	pregnant?
Xu_R	-_- no.
MutantTurkey	O.o
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: tis ok, you can relax
MutantTurkey	haha
MutantTurkey	I really need to get this dumb build problem fixedu p
MutantTurkey	I am itching to work on real problems :P
Borg^Queen	what's wrong?
MutantTurkey	i have to update some scripts now that we are using git, annd fix an error with my kdebase script.
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kb9vqf	Anyone here know this guy?
kb9vqf	Pawel <0x4r0x@gmail.com> requested an account for trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org
Xu_R	kb9vqf: no...
kb9vqf	If not I'll probably ignore his request
kb9vqf	could be a spam bot
Xu_R	ignore for now - and if anyone mentions on the list, then we'll know
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	just thought I'd check here
Xu_R	nice to know that the request feature works :D
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	Yes...since the (ill-timed) upgrades most things appear to be working at 100%
Xu_R	a very good thing indeed
Borg^Queen	?
kb9vqf	On July 11th or so I did some upgrades  and maintinance of the Trinity web services
Borg^Queen	Xu_R: f15 ... OMG lol
Xu_R	Borg^Queen: you can now request for an account on etherpad using a built-in form instead of us having to manually do it.
kb9vqf	While this fixed a lot of problems I did manage to knock the Etherpad offline
Borg^Queen	it seems gnome is the default ui, should I try kde4
kb9vqf	and then the derecho came through a few days later
kb9vqf	so the timing ended up being very bad in hindsight
Borg^Queen	oh blimey, I think its dead
kb9vqf	?
Xu_R	...
* Xu_R wonders if Borg^Queen paid attention...?
Borg^Queen	my fedora 15 install
* Xu_R gets a no as an answer.
Borg^Queen	about etherpad, yes sorry,
kb9vqf	np
kb9vqf	we have several topics going on here apparently
* kb9vqf gets off to let the channel topic take precedence :)
Borg^Queen	I'm new to all this so I'll have to learn on the fly regarding things like etherpad
Xu_R	brb, dinner.
Borg^Queen	k
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Xu_R	back
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Borg^Queen	ok time for me to go, gn or day to all
MadRush	anybody useing trinity on debian squeeze? I'm getting a dependency problem trying to install
Borg^Queen	what dep?
eldowan	MadRush: I'm using trinity on squeeze
Borg^Queen	well then, I'm off
Borg^Queen	thank you eldowan
eldowan	Borg^Queen: not sure what help i can be, i'm not at that machine.
eldowan	but yw, all the same
Borg^Queen	Well you'd know more than me, I haven't used Debian since Sarge
Borg^Queen	must go, sorry to run off MadRush, I have to make my own mad rush
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eldowan	MadRush: I'll be leaving here shortly, but any info you can provide?
eldowan	I had to update some packages on my squeeze box (heh) before the install'd go through. though I dont' remember what
MadRush	lol borg
Xu_R	don't worry, Borg^Queen is always like that.
Xu_R	ping kb9vqf
MadRush	its just funny I use this nick but I forget that its actually words that can be used hah
MadRush	whats the apt command to go ahead and do a safe update?
Xu_R	apt-get upgrade
MadRush	thanks
MadRush	its been a while since I did that ... been using the update manager for quite a while now.
MadRush	im tempted to make a squeeze vm real quick and see if it works on there
eldowan	I think there's a switch that you cna use that won't do an update, but show you what would be installed.
eldowan	aptitude -s will simulate, but not perform actions.
MadRush	good to know.  ive got to run but I'll be back later if I haven't made any headway
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Xu_R	brb, upgrading virtualbox (which reset my damn connection)
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: werid still no answer :[
MutantTurkey	also, I can't clone the git...
MutantTurkey	did you run "update-server-info" on the server?
MutantTurkey	fatal: http://cmorrison@trinitydesktop.org/scm/git/tde-packaging/info/refs not found: did you run git update-server-info on the server?
* Xu_R hopes that kb9vqf is not using java's implementation of git that SCM-Manager is supposed to use...
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: then again, I didn't have that problem...
Xu_R	oh, I know
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: check your url
MutantTurkey	whats wron with that?
Xu_R	it's scm.trinitydesktop.org/scm/git/tde-packaging
Xu_R	you're missing the subdomain
MutantTurkey	oh
MutantTurkey	okay :)
MutantTurkey	thanks!
Xu_R	np
MutantTurkey	this info should really be somewhere..
Xu_R	it is...
MutantTurkey	?
Xu_R	scm.trinitydesktop.org
Xu_R	if you login
MutantTurkey	what is git.trinitdesktop.org?
Xu_R	it also tells you your git clone command
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: the cgit interface AFAIK
MutantTurkey	oh here is a git tip if you dont want a giant wait to  clone huge repos
MutantTurkey	git clone URL --depth=1
MutantTurkey	only checks out most recent revision
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Xu_R	MutantTurkey: My internet is fast (but comcast loves throttling me), and I've really had not many problems with many big repos. but thanks for the tip!
MutantTurkey	but like when you clone the kernel...
MutantTurkey	if you ever do
MutantTurkey	it's annoyingly ridiculous :P
Xu_R	oh, now I want to. XD
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: yo so at this point all patches have been incorporated into qt3?
Xu_R	pretty much. there's nothing really much more.
MutantTurkey	have archlinux patches been looked at?
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: hey I have all these qt3 patches in tde-packaging/arch/trinity-qt3/ and i don't know if they are still relevant
MutantTurkey	(i am undergoing the conversion to git now)
kb9vqf	can you see if they are in the qt3 master branch?
MutantTurkey	how would i do that?
MutantTurkey	is there a way to search?
kb9vqf	you would have to load each patch and see if the changes are already in the source files
kb9vqf	alternatively, check out the source and try to patch it
kb9vqf	patch will complain if the patches are already in place
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: just go with option 2, and use quilt. it'll make your life so much easier.
MutantTurkey	ok :)
MutantTurkey	I am terrible at remembering passwords D:
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: sorry to be a pain in the arse, could you reset me git password?
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: reset
MutantTurkey	thanks
kb9vqf	np
MutantTurkey	does scm allow us to do oher things? or is it just a git manager?
kb9vqf	it's a scm manager
MutantTurkey	scm?
kb9vqf	so I could also provide subversion or mercurial repositories
MutantTurkey	okay
kb9vqf	source control manager
MutantTurkey	so many acronyms
kb9vqf	iirc
MutantTurkey	I thought it was vcs
kb9vqf	I know :)
kb9vqf	probably vcs is more generic
Xu_R	lol
Xu_R	scm, vcs
Xu_R	both work in the end :P
MutantTurkey	also what are we on
MutantTurkey	3.3.8c?
Xu_R	yup
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	oh my gosh this pkgbuild is way to complicated...
kb9vqf	3.3.8d technically
kb9vqf	3.3.8d being HEAD
kb9vqf	3.3.8c was already released
kb9vqf	3.3.8d may end up being the fully patched version of 3.3.8c
MutantTurkey	head?
kb9vqf	latest bleeding-edge version in the VCS
MutantTurkey	wait so I should pull from the main/ though right?
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTurkey	or is that HEAD?
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTurkey	whats in experimental/ ?
kb9vqf	let me put it this way: for an old stable project like Qt3 you want to pull the latest (HEAD) development sources from GIT
kb9vqf	experimental contains tqt4
MutantTurkey	okay :)
kb9vqf	and believe me it is HIGHLY experimental :)
kb9vqf	will probably eat your cat and make trees fall on your car
Xu_R	D: kitty hater!
MutantTurkey	I'll stay away.
kb9vqf	hehe
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: also a maybe ridiculous thought
MutantTurkey	we want to use webkit, do we want to write a tqt interface for webkit?
MutantTurkey	there already is a qt4 port for it, I don't know how much effort would be required
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: hrm another weird thing, I can do this: git clone http://scm.trinitydesktop.org/scm/git/tde
MutantTurkey	but not git clone http://scm.trinitydesktop.org/scm/git/tde/main/dependencies/qt3/
kb9vqf	no?
kb9vqf	what's the error?
MutantTurkey	fatal: remote error: Git repository not found
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: you could never do that with git last I checked.
* kb9vqf is a GIT newbie
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: yes you can I think...
MutantTurkey	I am almost sure
Xu_R	otherwise I would have done it with gitorious...
MutantTurkey	maybe not
kb9vqf	From what I understand it's not possible
* Xu_R tests his gitorious for that
MutantTurkey	you can do it
kb9vqf	I'm basing that on the fact that, unlike SVN, there is no .git directory in each subdirectory of a repository
MutantTurkey	sparse checkouts
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: no, it didn't work here...
Xu_R	oh, sparse checkouts, eww...
kb9vqf	??
Xu_R	there's this : http://stackoverflow.com/questions/600079/is-there-any-way-to-clone-a-git-repositorys-sub-directory-only
MutantTurkey	what do you mean eww?
MutantTurkey	it's identical to svn's way
MutantTurkey	http://vmiklos.hu/blog/sparse-checkout-example-in-git-1-7
MutantTurkey	youjust have to set it up i think
Xu_R	exactly why I said eww.
Xu_R	you can't do that on an initial clone
MutantTurkey	i know
MutantTurkey	so what do we do? just force them to checkout everything?
kb9vqf	well, not a problem with my server then
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: no :)
kb9vqf	GIT does have limitations
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: yea. pretty much. unless you want me to do branches?
Xu_R	one branch per distro?
kb9vqf	ick
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: so does svn :P
MutantTurkey	anyway i think git has good advantages over svn
Xu_R	(that actually sounds kinda good, doing branches)
MutantTurkey	though this is one that seems pretty hefty annoying
kb9vqf	I assume there would still be a way to check out everything?
kb9vqf	I don't want to lose that
Xu_R	kb9vqf: git clone takes out everything.
kb9vqf	The more connections you have being established in an automated script, the higher the liklihood of failure
MutantTurkey	right
kb9vqf	well, as long as we retain the ability to have a large, editable "master" checkout of everything I don't care what is done about branches/sparse checkouts/etc.
* Xu_R actually wants to work on a seperate branch for now with these mandriva SRPMS
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: hmmm got an email back from a developer
kb9vqf	and?
kb9vqf	not good?
MutantTurkey	it was like off topic...
kb9vqf	?
MutantTurkey	http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2011-July/020977.html
MutantTurkey	read
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: also, are you being trottled at liek 90kbs?
kb9vqf	it sounds like they are not interested
kb9vqf	I shouldn't be
kb9vqf	which service is affected?
MutantTurkey	just git cloning is really slow
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: thats only one developer, out of like 30...
MutantTurkey	mostly what i was proposing was qt3
MutantTurkey	kdelibs3 i even said wasn't important until we went stable
kb9vqf	90kbits or 90kbytes?
MutantTurkey	bytes
kb9vqf	well that actually might be the max uplink
MutantTurkey	oh, in that case sorry for stealing all your bandwidth :P
kb9vqf	It's OK
kb9vqf	you can't
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	90k isn't that bad in reality
kb9vqf	if we find a bottlenect we'll start redirecting initial checkouts to another server
kb9vqf	*bottleneck
kb9vqf	I just don't know enough about GIT to do that yet :-P
MutantTurkey	right
MutantTurkey	i keep forgetting if i have mentioned this
MutantTurkey	i started to mirror kde.org and am going to start mirroring our git
kb9vqf	yes you did
kb9vqf	when you have the git mirror please let me know
MutantTurkey	okay I will
MutantTurkey	now how do I not just mirror it, but allow other people to check out from me
kb9vqf	I have no idea :-P
MutantTurkey	I mean right now I am just cloning it into a directory on a cron job
kb9vqf	That might work
kb9vqf	As long as the entries for commit still point to *.trinitydesktop.org it should be OK
MutantTurkey	yeah I don't know D:
kb9vqf	Like I said my GIT knowledge is somewhat sparse still, so I'm playing it safe
kb9vqf	and having people check out straight from the main repo
MutantTurkey	is good
MutantTurkey	I am just doing it mostly for backups now
kb9vqf	sure
Xu_R	getting tired now - night all
kb9vqf	gn
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Did your git checkout complete yet?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: yes but the thing is I need to do it frequently
MutantTurkey	which is annoying
MutantTurkey	for some reason I cannot do --depth 1
* kb9vqf was just curious
MutantTurkey	to speed it up considerably.
MutantTurkey	do you know why that is?
kb9vqf	no, sorry
MutantTurkey	hrm
MutantTurkey	now i am erroring upon building qt34
MutantTurkey	qt3'
kb9vqf	error?
MutantTurkey	uh
MutantTurkey	/home/calvin/trinity-tree/tde-packaging/arch/master/trinity-qt3/src/tde/main/dependencies/qt3/src/tools/qdir.cpp:45:28: fatal error: private/qdir_p.h: No such file or directory
kb9vqf	hmm
kb9vqf	that is supposed to be a symlink
kb9vqf	hang on while I look at it
MutantTurkey	ok
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: fixed
MutantTurkey	re pull?
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTurkey	ok building works now ;)
MutantTurkey	could be easier than i thought
MutantTurkey	gotta figure out how to keep it in opt
MutantTurkey	just got to figure out how to package it right...
MutantTurkey	lied.
MutantTurkey	there are more errors
MutantTurkey	actually... no idea whats up
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I dunno. Ill work on it tomorrow
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: did you see the patches from Nix?
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: seems that at least one of those patches wasn't in the main repo
Xu_R	oh, patchwork is down...
MutantTurkey	it doesn't matter
MutantTurkey	I  just attached it
MutantTurkey	so we can still use it
Xu_R	I know. I was just saying in general. Did you also see the patches from Nix?
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: I told myself i would get up at like 8... didnt wake up till now haha
MutantTurkey	yes briefly while laying in bed
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: lol
MutantTurkey	they were tqt patches
MutantTurkey	hopefully fixing my problem
Xu_R	nice to see some patches floating into the mailing list
MutantTurkey	indeed.
MutantTurkey	i really want to be more of a hel
MutantTurkey	but until i get this system running triniy i am out of luck
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay, errors building qt3 now. ptrdiff_t does not name a type
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* kb9vqf forgot about patchwork
kb9vqf	drat
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 486 filed by jsullivan@opensourcedevel.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=486 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, KOrgac reading Zimbra calendars via caldav crash constantly for almost all users
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Borg^Queen	hi
eldowan	y0
Borg^Queen	y0
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Patchwork is back online: http://patchwork.trinitydesktop.org/project/trinity/list/
Borg^Queen	bbs
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kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Patchwork did not catch your patch--did you attach it in plain text as requested earlier?
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Patchwork registration should be functionali
kb9vqf	*functional now
Xu_R	kb9vqf: darn it, my first two attempts are still there - but my account is inactive...
kb9vqf	Xu_R: I thought I deleted them
kb9vqf	let me take another look
kb9vqf	Xu_R: OK, try again
Xu_R	ok, registered, and waiting for the registration email....
Xu_R	hm, I may sound impatient, but the email isn't coming (same thing like before)
kb9vqf	really?
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	it should :-/
Xu_R	:-\
kb9vqf	BTW before there was no SMTP account so the Email program just failed
Xu_R	ah.
kb9vqf	As long as you did not receive an HTTP/500 error then the Email *should* have been sent
Xu_R	I didn't... :\
kb9vqf	Of course there could also be a bug in Django/Patchwork
kb9vqf	who knows
Xu_R	hehe
Xu_R	kb9vqf: i'll check it again in a bit, I have to bbl.
kb9vqf	OK
Xu_R	bbl
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MutantTurkey	o.
MutantTurkey	o/
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MutantTurkey	hey guys
eldowan	yo MutantTurkey
eldowan	how's life?
MutantTurkey	eh
MutantTurkey	working and stuff
MutantTurkey	two jobs, lots of linux stuff, have a great girlfriend, my band is coming together.
MutantTurkey	things are looking pretty solid
ar	do you have any time left for sleep?
MutantTurkey	not at all
MutantTurkey	I haven't been sleeping enough
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eldowan	MutantTurkey: wow, that's a full plate and then some.
eldowan	what kind of band? what's your rold?
MutantTurkey	eldowan: uh sort of just like rock
MutantTurkey	well thats not totally accurate
MutantTurkey	but it's pretty close
MutantTurkey	I am singer and guitar player and going to be the bass player when we find a replacement guitarist
eldowan	oh nice. you guys just starting out, or you been in the scene for a while?
MutantTurkey	this band is just starting up
MutantTurkey	I was in a jam band earlier last year, and we had alot of cool material, but for some reason no one was motivated to gig at all. hence we just became a sort of jamband
MutantTurkey	but i have the keys player from the old band, a new guitarist, and potentially a new drummer
MutantTurkey	on top of that I am working on getting recordings done for other local bands
MutantTurkey	eldowan: check this single out, I did for a band called Clairvoyance, which has alot of my pals in it
MutantTurkey	http://www.facebook.com/clairvoyanceband?sk=app_178091127385
MutantTurkey	listen to "button up"
eldowan	will do.
eldowan	what are you p laying here?
MutantTurkey	I producced it
MutantTurkey	mixed, setup the studio space
eldowan	gotcha
MutantTurkey	basically all the work to let the band just focus on the music
eldowan	they aren't bad.
MutantTurkey	not for a bunch of kids...
MutantTurkey	i think the quality is pretty good
MutantTurkey	would like to vocals to be a bit warmer oh well.
eldowan	eh, you can always remaster if you have the orig tracks.
MutantTurkey	I do.
MutantTurkey	but the vocals are just a tad crappy imho
MutantTurkey	I cleaned it up about a million times better
eldowan	ah, they don't seem to be the most steady, that's for sure. kinda seems he's a little sharp sounding (duno about flat / sharp, but i mean to my ears)
MutantTurkey	yes I hear ya
MutantTurkey	they also have like 3 people sining at once
MutantTurkey	towards the end
MutantTurkey	complicates fixing it
eldowan	so true
MutantTurkey	because it was done together
eldowan	oh, on the one track?
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	but that was the only one I did they put up
MutantTurkey	the cracked glass demo is way worse quality, but whatever.
eldowan	buddy of mine turned his house into a studio, did it right. soundproofed everything, master control room, silent rooms, nice vocal booth.
eldowan	the entire 2nd floor is recording space, and his master bedroom is his mixing control room.
MutantTurkey	thats the plan
MutantTurkey	:)
MutantTurkey	$30,000, a house and a decent ear = instant studio
MutantTurkey	my buddy actually works for a new label startup and thats what the guy did.
eldowan	oh nice.
eldowan	yeah, he's on his way to finishing it and trying to attract artists to record.
eldowan	he's also a /stellar/ musician, with contacts all over the city. so hopefully he does well.
MutantTurkey	sounds like my buy
MutantTurkey	guy'
MutantTurkey	Ace Enders?
MutantTurkey	1 in a million chance...
MutantTurkey	ugh builing on a G5 Mac takes forever...
eldowan	nah, my guys is Cael.
MutantTurkey	ah
MutantTurkey	either way something i'd like to do
eldowan	what region are you in anyway? we'er in the general Houston area.
MutantTurkey	Philidelphia
eldowan	ah, well that'd explain it.
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MutantTurkey	yeah :)
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MutantTurkey	yawn
eldowan	yeah, can't wait for the day to be over.
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: WOAH, finally found the patchwork confi'rmation email.
Xu_R	it ended up in my spam
Xu_R	because the email has "example.com" in it...
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kb9vqf	example.com?
kb9vqf	hmm
* kb9vqf goes to check the configuration again
Borg^Queen	does anyone have time to help me figure out an error build mkvtools?
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eldowan	Borg^Queen: I dont' know how much /help/ i'll be... i usually install from apt
Borg^Queen	ok
Borg^Queen	I think I'm onto something hang ok
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Should be fixed (I hope)
Borg^Queen	ok it keeps saying checking for EBML... no
Borg^Queen	the libebml libs are installed to /usr/local/lib and /usr/local/include
Borg^Queen	this is the config line
Borg^Queen	./configure --with-matroska-include=/usr/local/include/matroska \
Borg^Queen	--with-matroska-lib=/usr/local/lib \
Borg^Queen	--with-ebml-include=/usr/local/include \
Borg^Queen	--with-ebml-lib=/usr/local/lib
Borg^Queen	clearly I'm doing something wrong since they are installed
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: what is the error
MutantTurkey	are your paths correct? verify that
Borg^Queen	checking for EBML... no
MutantTurkey	did you double check the paths?
Borg^Queen	that's the only error, not much feedback and yes, I checked the paths
Borg^Queen	but let me check again
MutantTurkey	is there an error file there?
MutantTurkey	not sure what it maybe be called, but look in the dir
Borg^Queen	checking
MutantTurkey	may have some specificis
Borg^Queen	yes they're correct
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	any error in the build files?
Borg^Queen	checking now
Borg^Queen	one error
Borg^Queen	conftest.cc: In function 'int main()':
Borg^Queen	conftest.cc:15: error: 'exit' was not declared in this scope
Borg^Queen	next
Borg^Queen	configure:3368: g++ -c -g -O2  conftest.cc >&5
Borg^Queen	conftest.cc:11: error: 'void std::exit(int)' should have been declared inside 'std'
MutantTurkey	okay that seems unrelated to the includes
MutantTurkey	view the conftest.cc
Borg^Queen	I know but just in case
MutantTurkey	maybe thier test is failing to build...
MutantTurkey	look at the file
Borg^Queen	I see nothing
Borg^Queen	what files should I be looking at
Borg^Queen	it finds everything but that embl
MutantTurkey	hrm
MutantTurkey	no idea then :/
Borg^Queen	aye
Borg^Queen	AH! find newer versions
Borg^Queen	hang on
MutantTurkey	?
Xu_R	back
Xu_R	kb9vqf: works OK :D
* Xu_R is now going to start throwing SuSE patches up knowing they don't get lost. hopefully.
MutantTurkey	any recommends on windows free laptops?
MutantTurkey	I don't want to pay the extra $150 for no reason.
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: They won't be lost
kb9vqf	tape backups are scheduled :)
Xu_R	:D
kb9vqf	just remember...plain text patches ONLY (as attachments preferred)
kb9vqf	no .gz stuff
MutantTurkey	no gz stuff?
Xu_R	I always paste the patch into the message itself.
* Xu_R never messes with attachments
MutantTurkey	yeah I prefer that also
MutantTurkey	so you can review them in commenting back :)
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	and also so that patchwork will pick them up
kb9vqf	patchwork doesn't decompress tarballs due to the danger of a tarbomb
Borg^Queen	TAPE?
kb9vqf	it's actually better than disk
kb9vqf	lower BER
kb9vqf	higher reliability
kb9vqf	lower cost
kb9vqf	:)
Xu_R	I'm actually going to use a different email address for emailing patches because it's easier for me to keep track
kb9vqf	sure
MutantTurkey	any laptop recommends?
* kb9vqf has had "good" "enterprise class" disks fail way too often
kb9vqf	I used to recommend Lenovo but I think their stuff has gone down the sewer lately
Xu_R	Lenovo is still pretty good.
Xu_R	but yea, going down a bit faster than expected
Xu_R	how about Toshiba?
kb9vqf	The new stuff has a pretty high failure rate
Borg^Queen	lenovo rocks
* Xu_R thinks Toshiba is good
kb9vqf	Stay far away from Toshiba IMHO
Borg^Queen	toshiba is very anti foss
Xu_R	ah. figures.
* Xu_R only used Toshiba with windows
Borg^Queen	I don't like toshiba, had business dealings with them, horrorible company
MutantTurkey	yeah I am thinking a stinkpad actually...
MutantTurkey	i like lenovo they are troopers
Xu_R	stinkpad LOL
kb9vqf	My r61 just keeps going...and going...
Borg^Queen	lol
eldowan	stinkpad indeed
MutantTurkey	well that name is obviously applied joking.
kb9vqf	also my T400
MutantTurkey	because they are the #1 trusted brand for buisnesses.
Xu_R	ah, my cousin has a T400. It broke in China, and we got it fixed pretty quickly
Xu_R	:D
eldowan	we had almost every one of our old t41 era ones failed.
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: my old ibm "stink" pad has been puked on by babies, thrown down a flight of stairs, and still works perfectly
eldowan	Borg^Queen: really? we had almost the exact opposite experience
MutantTurkey	so I am thinking a stinkpad then.
Borg^Queen	eldowan: ?
Xu_R	only yours, Borg^Queen, will ever face torture like that
eldowan	w/ the stinkpads
kb9vqf	My r61 has had water dropped on it, it's been sat on, and it still works great
Borg^Queen	Xu_R: wait til you have kids
MutantTurkey	really that bad of luck? eldowan
eldowan	we had over 15 fail
eldowan	and didn't even have 30 total
Borg^Queen	I and curse you with a dozen kids
Borg^Queen	eldowan: consumer or industrial machines
kb9vqf	the new ones eldowan?
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Borg^Queen	there's a HUGE differenece
eldowan	Borg^Queen: business class, old IBM
Xu_R	Borg^Queen: LOL.
eldowan	kb9vqf ^
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Xu_R	how wonderful.
MutantTurkey	hummmm weird. got disconnected
eldowan	kb9vqf: gotta quick question about trinity for ya, fi you have the time
MutantTurkey	anyway, experience with lenevo is positive?
Borg^Queen	eldowan: if they run windows, they were not industrial grade
Xu_R	lenovo = :D
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: very positive. I even called them and ended up talking to 5 techs at once
eldowan	Borg^Queen: aah, yeah, those were all old xp boxes
MutantTurkey	excellent
Borg^Queen	eldowan: not industrial grade
MutantTurkey	specifically which ones?
Borg^Queen	Generally the ones over 1k US with a 3 year warranty
eldowan	ours? t40 t41 t42 IIRC
Borg^Queen	the 1 year ones are consumers
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: I don't need warranty.
Borg^Queen	Ihave a t40
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: and you don't need a helmet or hand rails
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: statistically not worth it...
kb9vqf	warranty is a good thing....
Borg^Queen	aye
MutantTurkey	statistically warrantys are not worth it.
kb9vqf	yes they are for one reason: infant death
Borg^Queen	I have a t30 that was beaten to death, new HD and BOOM working for 5 years and going
kb9vqf	there is more and more infant death due to lower QC at the factory
kb9vqf	no warranty == SOL
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: rreally?
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTurkey	its funny
MutantTurkey	because normal companies will just give you a warranty and service
MutantTurkey	only computer ones are assholes and charge extra...
kb9vqf	don't get me started on the new "enterprise" hard disks I tried to purchase
kb9vqf	hehe
Borg^Queen	a computer is most likely to fail within 60 days of initial operation
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	that's "infant death"
Borg^Queen	aye exactly
MutantTurkey	then an included 1 year warrenty is nbest.
Borg^Queen	if you get a industrial grade one, it will have linux and a 3 y war
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: link please
kb9vqf	I can personally recommend up to the T400 series
Borg^Queen	a small Chinese man like Xu_R will follow you around of you get the special package
kb9vqf	after that things get dicey
Borg^Queen	t400 yes
MutantTurkey	420?
kb9vqf	sounds like a consumer model
MutantTurkey	they have a $700 sale.
MutantTurkey	i mean....
Borg^Queen	avoid, the lowend and extremely high end
MutantTurkey	1750 vs 1000
kb9vqf	get the one with the mil-spec testing :)
Xu_R	t400 ftw
kb9vqf	the T400 had that testing and it just keeps going
MutantTurkey	I am going to take the train, we can talk more when i get home
Borg^Queen	agreed
Xu_R	Borg^Queen: I'm freaking 6ft2...
Borg^Queen	k be safe
Xu_R	well, almost. like 6ft1...
Borg^Queen	Xu_R: ahh industrial grade chinese
Xu_R	...-_-
Borg^Queen	Wait I thought you were mexican
MutantTurkey	t400 seems to be the older core2 models
MutantTurkey	i need one with the i3 i5 i7 series
Borg^Queen	yes, but its rock solid
MutantTurkey	anyway gotta go!
MutantTurkey	thanks!
Borg^Queen	k
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Borg^Queen	gn to all
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MutantTurkey	night
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alexbobp	I'm running trinity on debian
alexbobp	one time I caught nepomuk using up 3GB of ram
alexbobp	so I was wondering what nepomuk is for and how I can get rid of it if it's not important
Xu_R	alexbobp: nepomuk is part of kde4.
Xu_R	you can remove it freely via your package manager.
alexbobp	ah okay
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eldowan	alexbobp: when I log into my squeeze box I kill nepomuk and plasma-netbook and don't ahve any memory issues. if you remove nepomuk I think it may take all of kde4 away. I know that removing plasma-netbook wants to.
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backwoodsman	hi all..  any chance of binaries being made for Debian Testing? I'd like to install Trinity on Mint Debian, but it's based on Testing, and the Squeeze binaries won't install due to unresolved dependencies.
kb9vqf	working on compilation tests for Maverick now...binaries would be built after those are successful
backwoodsman	Maverick? I thought those were already available. In any case, would that work on Mint Debian?
kb9vqf	yes--for 3.5.12
kb9vqf	I'm tackling one problem at a time
kb9vqf	by using a known-sane build environment I can know for certain that any problems I run into are a direct result of source changes from 3.5.12 to the current source HEAD revisions
kb9vqf	once the code is known-good then I will build against other environments that may or may not work properly the first tiem
kb9vqf	*time
kb9vqf	and know that any problems I run into there are caused by the new environment, not fundamental flaws in the source code
kb9vqf	:)
backwoodsman	sounds good..  I'll try the Maverick binaries on Mint 11, I believe that should work.
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	let us know if they work or not
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backwoodsman	Neither Maverick nor Debian Squeeze install instructions work on Linux Mint 11, due to broken dependencies.
backwoodsman	I guess I'll have to grit my teeth and install Ubuntu :)
alexbobp	eldowan|afk: well... I'm A-OK with taking all of KDE 4 away :P
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joeytwiddle	i still use XMMS too.  it rocks!
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eldowan|afk	alexbobp: good deal. both the netbook-plasma and nepokserver are in /usr/bin and I just mv <> <>.old and they don't start at all. I do like some of hte kde4 apps, so I may keep it around a bit.
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: Keep adding patches to Patchwork...
* kb9vqf has already handled quite a few: http://patchwork.trinitydesktop.org/project/trinity/list/?state=*
kb9vqf	:)
Xu_R	kb9vqf: nice! :D
Xu_R	hmm... darn it - seems like patchwork mishandled some of my patches :-\
kb9vqf	?
Xu_R	ex. http://patchwork.trinitydesktop.org/patch/19/ it didn't get the whole patch
Xu_R	the top half it got, the bottom half is still in the email message...
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mk_MP	Hi, is there anyone else active on the channel except robots?
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mk_MP	Hi, Borg^Queen, are you a bot or not?
Borg^Queen	Of course I'm a bot
mk_MP	Good. :-)
* Borg^Queen assimilates mk_MP
mk_MP	I am new to this channel and on the search for information...
Borg^Queen	Ah ok shoot
mk_MP	Trying to incorporate knowledge from the Borg.
mk_MP	:-)
Borg^Queen	lol
mk_MP	Look,  I only learnt about trinity project today.
mk_MP	Any I am impressed.
Borg^Queen	Its a great project, and getting better all the time. More and more distros are picking it up.
mk_MP	I wondered whether trinity includes also QT3 and not only KDE3...
Borg^Queen	It does
mk_MP	I see.
mk_MP	That sounds interesting indeed.
Borg^Queen	it is
mk_MP	Look, there is the idea to include trinity in MacPorts for Mac OS X.
Borg^Queen	Sweet
mk_MP	At the moment there is qt3 and qt3-mac available and also kde3...
Borg^Queen	kb9vqf: is the founder, he would be very interested in this
mk_MP	but there seems to be reoccuring trouble now.
Borg^Queen	trouble?
mk_MP	I learnt from a friend who recently upgraded to Lion with Xcode 4.1 that now (after selfupdateing and upgrading MacPorts) qt3 won't build anymore.
Borg^Queen	sounds like a bug in the recent update
Borg^Queen	report it to macports
mk_MP	This is a real pain, since up to now KDE3 had always been our safety net with respect to KMyMoney.
Borg^Queen	good app kmymoney
mk_MP	KMyMoney4 on KDE4 is still having loads of trouble.
Borg^Queen	what are the error msgs?
Borg^Queen	everything in kde4 is having loads of trouble
mk_MP	So, KMyMoney 1.0.5 was always a safe fallback solution.
Borg^Queen	agreed
mk_MP	With a broken qt3 port this would be gone.
mk_MP	For me
mk_MP	on Snow Leopart
mk_MP	all is still okay
Borg^Queen	hmm
mk_MP	but my friend's machine is bonked with respect to KDE3.
mk_MP	So,
mk_MP	the idea was to get trinity up and running via MacPorts.
mk_MP	I saw from your webpage that there are only Linuxes up to now supported.
Borg^Queen	kb9vqf: is the man to speak to, he's the founder and who know far more about fixing it than I would
mk_MP	But I think it would be really worthwhile to get it to life on Mac OSX, since it has evolved quite a bit since the 3.3.8 currently in qt3 port on MacPorts.
mk_MP	OK, I wonder how I could contact kb9vqf...
Borg^Queen	agreed
Borg^Queen	hang on
mk_MP	will do
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Submit your patches as attachments
kb9vqf	BTW I'm here :)
kb9vqf	I have NO mac experience whatsoever
mk_MP	Hi kb9vqf, good to see you here!
mk_MP	Great project!!!
kb9vqf	file a bug at http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net with the compilation error message and I'll see if anything stands out :)
kb9vqf	thanks!
Borg^Queen	oih there he is
mk_MP	Well, I don't know whether I'll be able to contribute really. but I'd try to get it to build here on the Mac.
kb9vqf	we do maintain Qt3 so there is half a chance that I may be able to help
mk_MP	Ah, ok, also for qt3
kb9vqf	I can't build it on a mac here (obviously) but if you provide the build logs I may be able to see what can be fixed
Borg^Queen	kb9vqf: mac is a unix os (darwin) running a similair to kde3 UI
mk_MP	Great. Good to be in touch then.
kb9vqf	Borg_Queen: I know :)
Borg^Queen	ah ok
kb9vqf	but as far as hands on experience...well
mk_MP	Yep, I'll use your bug tracker then. :-) Very good.
Borg^Queen	kb9vqf: aye
* kb9vqf counted clicks for common tasks on one once--that's it :)
Borg^Queen	lol
kb9vqf	mk_MP: Sounds good
mk_MP	Is there a tarball avilable for download for trinity?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	3.5.12 is on the main page
mk_MP	Couldn't find the right link on the main page. Must have been blind.
kb9vqf	hmmm...maybe it used to be there and isn't anymore
* kb9vqf goes to look
mk_MP	Please do, there are only instruction, release notes and that is it.
kb9vqf	It's under the Releases tab
mk_MP	Ah, ok
kb9vqf	click 3.5.12 and there will be a tarball download like
mk_MP	Found it.
kb9vqf	*link
kb9vqf	ok
mk_MP	Would be better to have a more direct path to it. :-)
kb9vqf	it is not obvious at all apparently :-P
kb9vqf	Maybe "Downloads" would be better than "Releases"
kb9vqf	?
mk_MP	Yep
kb9vqf	OK
* kb9vqf goes to change it now
mk_MP	OK, I wonder what packages I'd need to get a running qt3 plus basic kde3, so that I'd be able to build kmymoney on to of that.
kb9vqf	fixed :)
mk_MP	I don't see a qt3 package anywhere...
kb9vqf	qt3, arts, kdelibs, kmymoney
kb9vqf	qt3 is in our GIT repository
mk_MP	Again I am blind
mk_MP	Oh
kb9vqf	you caught us in the middle of a move to GIT
mk_MP	THat's not obvious from the releases page
kb9vqf	no it is not
mk_MP	I see.
kb9vqf	as of the 3.5.12 release we were NOT maintaining qt3
mk_MP	I'd like to have a tarball here as well.
mk_MP	YOu are not?
kb9vqf	3.5.12 was released a while ago
mk_MP	I thought you did as well, as being part of kde3/trinity?!
kb9vqf	we decided to maintain qt3 after 3.5.12 was released
mk_MP	Ah
mk_MP	ok
kb9vqf	make sense?
mk_MP	yep
Xu_R	kb9vqf: oh - nah, I like them inline in the end :P besides, it didn't catch MutantTurkey's when he sent his as an attachment
kb9vqf	it didn't make it into the 3.5.12 release notes for obvious reasons ;-)
mk_MP	So, I need a tarball of it as well.
kb9vqf	hang on
kb9vqf	http://git.trinitydesktop.org/viewgit/index.php?a=tree&p=Trinity%20Desktop%20Environment&hb=HEAD&f=main/dependencies/qt3
kb9vqf	There is a link at the bottom for a .tar.gz file
mk_MP	OK, see it
kb9vqf	this stuff is not publicly documented yet because 3.5.13 is not yet released
mk_MP	No release number is actually connected with it...
kb9vqf	right
mk_MP	http://git.trinitydesktop.org/viewgit/index.php?a=archive&p=Trinity%20Desktop%20Environment&h=4116ba197904ebc0b37d7c2d4cef71d58aec6649&t=targz
kb9vqf	3.5.13 should come out in the fall if all goes well
mk_MP	I see...
mk_MP	Hmm...
kb9vqf	then there will be more extensive release notes, including coverage of our qt3 repo
mk_MP	OK,
kb9vqf	as of right now qt3 is at version 3.3.8d
kb9vqf	but that is not a final release
mk_MP	ok. qt3-mac is at 3.3.8b, I think.
kb9vqf	if you find bugs while compiling qt3 please let us know
kb9vqf	and we will attempt to fix the problems and include them in the official 3.3.8d release
mk_MP	OK, I'll try to download the stuff and try to build it here.
kb9vqf	include the patches that is :)
kb9vqf	ok
mk_MP	OK, you 've to give me time though. I'm not the official maintainer of the qt3 port on MacPorts and have at first to figure out whether I can easily replace the current tarball against your modified one.
kb9vqf	sure
mk_MP	Once I've set it up I'll report back to you.
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	Email on the mailing list may be easiest
mk_MP	Shall I use the bug tracker for communication with you
mk_MP	or ML
mk_MP	OK
kb9vqf	trinity-devel or the bugtracker
mk_MP	I see ML is best.
mk_MP	I prefer ML
kb9vqf	ok
mk_MP	for discussions
mk_MP	bt for bug.
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	keeps it organized and neat :)
mk_MP	OK, thatnks for now!!!
mk_MP	Was great to talk to you!!!!
kb9vqf	thanks, and thanks for offering to help in this area!
mk_MP	Thanks for your help so far, I'll come back to you through the list and perhaps also using IRC.
mk_MP	You are welcome. :-)
mk_MP	OK, have to go to bed now.
mk_MP	Bye!!!
kb9vqf	see ya
kb9vqf	:)
mk_MP	:-)
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: I have no idea why patchwork is eating inline patches
kb9vqf	It's not my code after all :-//
kb9vqf	maybe you want to ask upstream to the maintainer?
kb9vqf	Also mac support sounds good
kb9vqf	I was wondering if kmymoney was really that bad under KDE4...I guess it is! :-P
kb9vqf	BTW kmymoney is in our source tree as of a few weeks ago
* kb9vqf listens to the droning of crickets
Xu_R	kb9vqf: I think it's because I didn't format the email message correctly >_>
kb9vqf	well, don't do that :-P
kb9vqf	Which ones are corrupt
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	I'll mark them as rejected
Xu_R	both of them, actually - (the ones with "Patches at Lincom" as the submitter)
kb9vqf	ok
Xu_R	I'll resubmit them
kb9vqf	Ah, even better I was able to delete them
kb9vqf	so submit away
Xu_R	ok
Xu_R	now to see if patchwork caught it.
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Also, any chance that I can get some help with fixing the bugs on the bugtracker....??
Xu_R	sure
kb9vqf	3.5.13 is blocked on that
kb9vqf	and by help I mean that you guys puck a bug, fix it, and send a patch in to the bug report :)
kb9vqf	*pick
kb9vqf	I'm pretty busy on this end keeping up with the patches and fixing glitches that are not reported to the bugtracker yet
Xu_R	ok
kb9vqf	also starting Natty builds, which will undoubtedly reveal a mass of steaming gcc4.6 problems
Xu_R	ah, fun.
Xu_R	i'll check for any gcc46 patches I can find
* kb9vqf is not looking forward to it
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	Here's another fun Qt4-related glitch
kb9vqf	/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.5/../../../../lib/libtqassistantclient.a: could not read symbols: Bad value
Xu_R	>_>
kb9vqf	Only happens on kdevelop, and only on amd64 :-P
Xu_R	oh god, that sucks
kb9vqf	On the plus side I successfully built our Qt3.3.8d code under Debian
kb9vqf	with only 4 patches needed :)
kb9vqf	(Debian/Ubuntu specific patches)
kb9vqf	sure beats the several dozen (!) that were originally required
Xu_R	nice.
Xu_R	D: wow. patchwork didn't catch my media-crypt_teardown.diff patch but caught the security one...
* kb9vqf goes to investigate
Xu_R	oh, and it messed up the patch inline again.
* Xu_R sighs and gives up for now
kb9vqf	beats me :;/
Xu_R	kb9vqf: you already have the patches anyway, so i'm assuming it's thunderbird that's screwing me up
kb9vqf	as I said...attach them....
Xu_R	kb9vqf: it didn't catch MutantTurkey's ODBC patch that he didn't attach inline D:
kb9vqf	grrr
kb9vqf	I don't have the patience or time to pick through the ML to find patches
Xu_R	>_>
Xu_R	I know...
kb9vqf	If patchwork isn't working can you post the URLs to the patches in the ML archives on an Etherpad?
Xu_R	sure
kb9vqf	thanks
Xu_R	np
Borg^Queen	gn to all
Xu_R	nite borgy
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Piki	hi
Piki	kb9vqf, doesn't tbottu like being a tyrant? :-D
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	not anymore
kb9vqf	not after his brain transplant
Piki	transplant?
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kb9vqf	I switched bots, as mozbot was not reliable enough
kb9vqf	he may become a tyrant again if login abilities are desired on this channel...time will tell
Piki	what bot are you using now?
Piki	the trinity-users ML is listed as high traffic, but it has fewer posts for july than trintiy-devel, which is listed as moderate :-P
kb9vqf	yes, I did notice that
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hazridi	I just installed network-manager-kde-trinity (I'm running squeeze) and it doesn't seem to function. My wifi card is working properly and I can set it up manually or with ceni.
hazridi	nevermind -- it was unmanaged due to being in /etc/network/interfaces
hazridi	now trinity is pretty much KDE 3, but perfect
kb9vqf	Glad to hear it :)
hazridi	spoke a little too soon, as it doesn't seem to want to connect to either of my APs... cnetworkmanager is working though
kb9vqf	I assume you restarted your machine after removing the interface from /etc/network/interfaces?
kb9vqf	if not sometimes networkmanager gets confused
hazridi	I restarted network-manager...  using cnetworkmanager (cli interface to n-m) it connected OK
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Xu_R	meep~~
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s15y2	Hi, would this bug: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=124053 be hard to solve in trinity?
tbottu	04Bug 124053: was not found.
s15y2	"Having hundreds of feeds renders akregator useless."
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Borg^Queen	Entities
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Borg^Queen	gn to all
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MutantTurkey	hey all
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Xu_R	soo... what happened to tbottu? XD it looks like it had spazzing moments
kb9vqf	I was getting messages in the logs requesting that I authenticate to Freenode....
kb9vqf	so I had to set up the authentication plugin
kb9vqf	that little process required several reloads
Xu_R	ah.
Xu_R	looks like tbottu is dictator again then...
kb9vqf	obviously it's working then :)
kb9vqf	if people here don't like it I can probably deop him, but personally I don't see the harm
MutantTurkey	:P
MutantTurkey	I think he's good here.
Xu_R	keep him :P
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Any progress on that "developers portal" page for the Website?
kb9vqf	Or some bug fixes? :-)
kb9vqf	Xu_R: You too regarding the bug fixes...
kb9vqf	Maybe someone can look at that oh-so-stale BOTW in the topic?
* kb9vqf is trying to keep things moving along....
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: honestly I am trying to pull some free time together for it
kb9vqf	ok, sounds good
MutantTurkey	I still am working on getting it all built.
kb9vqf	sure
MutantTurkey	which makes me wonder if i should just do a debian install on another box to test and build trinity...
kb9vqf	I'm also starting builds under Natty, so gcc4.6 issues should be resolved soon
Xu_R	kb9vqf: many of the bugs on that bugtracker I'm not reproducing... which leads me to wonder if system is working right.
Xu_R	*if my system
kb9vqf	If you are not reproducing them flag that on the bug report
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: was I supposed to create the page? D: okay! :p
kb9vqf	it is possible (likely even) that some of the more recent changes I put into SVN fixed some of the obscure bugs
kb9vqf	that could have been caused by memory corruption
kb9vqf	kdesktop was leaking like a sieve on later gcc versions
kb9vqf	that has been fixed
Xu_R	kb9vqf: I'm planning on reinstalling my trinity VM ASAP, so I'll try to see if I can reproduce the bugs again
kb9vqf	good
kb9vqf	If neither you nor MutantTurkey can reproduce a bug mark it as RESOLVED/INVALID and state that you cannot reporoduce it
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: so the whole kdesktop problem is fixed in the svn right?
kb9vqf	Also ask the reporter to verify that he can reproduce it under the latest GIT
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Yes!
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: sweet.
kb9vqf	valgrind was helpful
kb9vqf	but it still took quite a while
MutantTurkey	I think i am going to clock out and get back to work
kb9vqf	the problems were obscure
kb9vqf	ok
MutantTurkey	on trinity
MutantTurkey	wow its thundering and storming like crazy all of a sudden
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eldowan	oh, nice
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: so you are also using tde-packaging right?
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTurkey	this git problem is a pain in the arse
MutantTurkey	the not being able to clone only parts of the tree
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: question abotu that odbc patch
kb9vqf	yes?
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kb9vqf	looks like I got bumped off
kb9vqf	what was your question?
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MutantTurkey	http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0s::2714
MutantTurkey	piccoro said something, I have no idea what though.
kb9vqf	If that is the same patch I am thinking of, yes, it was applied to the Qt3 branch in GIT
kb9vqf	not sure though, and I'm not going to go picking through random tarballs to find out!
MutantTurkey	mine or his?
MutantTurkey	mine was a few lines
MutantTurkey	updates a few defintions thats all
kb9vqf	his
kb9vqf	is yours not in GIT?
MutantTurkey	thats why I sent it in to see...
kb9vqf	link please?
kb9vqf	if it was in patchwork I probably already processed it
kb9vqf	BTW did I mention how much I hate Qt4? http://git.trinitydesktop.org/viewgit/index.php?a=commit&p=Trinity%%20Desktop%%20Environment&h=a7b8e6024196412a8849d00f68c01512dbf80e37
MutantTurkey	Invalid Project?
MutantTurkey	link is a no go
MutantTurkey	well, qt3 is building so far :) so hopefully that's one thing out of the way
kb9vqf	invalid project?
kb9vqf	on the git link I just posted?
MutantTurkey	yes.
kb9vqf	hmm, you're right
MutantTurkey	I see it though
MutantTurkey	I looked at it by the commit md5 or whatever
MutantTurkey	Nokia is seriously dropping the ball lately.
kb9vqf	Try this
kb9vqf	http://git.trinitydesktop.org/viewgit/index.php?a=commit&p=Trinity%20Desktop%20Environment&h=a7b8e6024196412a8849d00f68c01512dbf80e37
kb9vqf	ah, ok
MutantTurkey	yeah I got it. but that's ridiculous
kb9vqf	I mean seriously, what's so hard about making sure that a double is actually a *double* so that comparisons work?!?
MutantTurkey	Qt4 seems less and less viable haha.
kb9vqf	hehe
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: did you report it?
kb9vqf	no, because I don't have time to put together a test case
MutantTurkey	ah
kb9vqf	and I saw a couple bugs already
kb9vqf	along those lines
kb9vqf	Nokia's answer: "Tough rocks"
kb9vqf	(paraphrased)
kb9vqf	actually they went on about how double is an approximation
kb9vqf	and this is to be expected
kb9vqf	all I know is that behaviour like that is going to break a lot of code bery subtly
kb9vqf	*very
MutantTurkey	...
kb9vqf	In this case (TQString("3.3").toDouble() > 3.3) was returning TRUE!
MutantTurkey	yeah they are dumb.
MutantTurkey	how is "approximately" large?
MutantTurkey	larger than?
kb9vqf	I know
kb9vqf	this worked:
kb9vqf	In this case (TQString("3.2999999999").toDouble() > 3.3) was returning TRUE!
kb9vqf	that is, (TQString("3.2999999999").toDouble() > 3.3) returned false
kb9vqf	as it is supposed to
MutantTurkey	oh man
kb9vqf	and only on i386...and only on gcc4.6....
kb9vqf	:-P
kb9vqf	(i.e. Ubuntu Natty i386)
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Can you check this again?
kb9vqf	rsync rsync://rsync.pearsoncomputing.net
kb9vqf	I'm getting complaints of failure on the QuickBuild IP address again
kb9vqf	yet the mirrors synced up normally this morning (???)
MutantTurkey	also, if you want to make me a package mirror I could do that.
MutantTurkey	I am getting nothing.
MutantTurkey	it is just hnaging
kb9vqf	great
kb9vqf	/sarcasm
MutantTurkey	:-P
kb9vqf	Now I get to wonder if my ISP is throttling/disconnecting that port or if I had something fail
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Xu_R	sorry for that random d/c
Xu_R	windows is so lovely.
MutantTurkey	honestly the windows desktop experience IMHO is way ahead of linux right now
MutantTurkey	for regular users.
Xu_R	I know...
Xu_R	but the stability can kiss my @$$
MutantTurkey	yeah seriously
* kb9vqf reminds MutantTurkey of Windows 8
MutantTurkey	windows 8?
kb9vqf	ick ick ick
Xu_R	AHHHH WINDOWS 8 *dies*
kb9vqf	google it
Xu_R	that new interface makes vista nice
MutantTurkey	hahah
* kb9vqf knows *gag*
Xu_R	nice to know i'm not the only one thinking that XD
kb9vqf	unlike Linux, there is no Windows 7 UI fork possible...
kb9vqf	Linux may show its strengths ye
kb9vqf	*yet
Xu_R	hopefully
MutantTurkey	so...
MutantTurkey	It's like the windows 7 phone
kb9vqf	well, I like to think I am in control of my desktop, and that just won't do it
kb9vqf	I never feel fully in control of a cell phone :-P
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: yup
MutantTurkey	wow.
MutantTurkey	so is it for a desktop or not?
kb9vqf	yes, that's their new desktop
MutantTurkey	weird
kb9vqf	that and they want all people to program desktop apps in HTML5 and JavaScript
kb9vqf	no C/C++/etc. allowe
kb9vqf	*allowed
MutantTurkey	what about C#?
kb9vqf	No
MutantTurkey	really?
Xu_R	they want .net to die too now...
kb9vqf	Nothing but HTML5 and JavaScript
MutantTurkey	that was like a big microsot thing
MutantTurkey	wow
MutantTurkey	I mean this doesn't feel like a pc
* kb9vqf thinks there will probably be a 6-figure cost for the "developers edition"
MutantTurkey	it's all touch based?
kb9vqf	yeah
Xu_R	they expect all the PCs to be touch now
kb9vqf	Now I am so glad that I don't do that Windows thing
kb9vqf	:)
MutantTurkey	yeah seriosuly
Xu_R	XD
MutantTurkey	this is great for linux!
Xu_R	I still need windows for apps... D:
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: no you wont
Xu_R	(thank god for virtualbox full screen mode)
MutantTurkey	all windows apps are going to be javascript + html.
MutantTurkey	so they will be cross platform...
Xu_R	I mean current apps
Xu_R	that aren't JS/HTML
kb9vqf	this sounds suspiciously like limiting the ability to generate new content
kb9vqf	== big bucks paid to the few who have the tools to generate new content
Xu_R	it sounds like Apple.
kb9vqf	and I mean quality "AAA" content
Xu_R	true.
MutantTurkey	but you can still get to the old shell right?
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: we're doubting that right now
kb9vqf	not for long if M$ follows its history
kb9vqf	general purpose computing, where everyone has the tools to develop new things, seems to be going away
kb9vqf	it's sad really
MutantTurkey	time for linux to rise :)
Xu_R	I hope so :D
MutantTurkey	not the way gnome3 is going...
kb9vqf	hence this project
MutantTurkey	they did the same thing as windows 8
MutantTurkey	I think xfce4 and triinty are the only two really good ones.
kb9vqf	"Want to be a CREATOR, not just a CONSUMER?"
MutantTurkey	as far as DE's
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	we need a slogan
MutantTurkey	I wish xfce was a bit more flxible.
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: the only nice thing about GNOME 3 is extensions that allow you to completely change it (and make it gnome 2)
MutantTurkey	I think that the "app" idea could come to trinity but i don't see how
MutantTurkey	without bloating it up
MutantTurkey	I DO like the windows 8 shell they showed for maybe using on a mobile phone or a television screen
MutantTurkey	but not for a PC though
Xu_R	agreed.
kb9vqf	app idea?
kb9vqf	what specifically?
Xu_R	how about extensions?
kb9vqf	to do what?
Xu_R	actually, scratch that for now. I'm not thinking right
* kb9vqf notes that the framework for "extensions" is probably already there
* Xu_R is reinstalling trinity as we speak
kb9vqf	in fact the entire UI theming system is a type of "extension"
Xu_R	oh?
MutantTurkey	right that would be cool
MutantTurkey	kde3 is all module-ized
MutantTurkey	right?
MutantTurkey	like even with kparts and such
kb9vqf	yes it is
kb9vqf	so I ask again:
kb9vqf	what do you mean by extensions?
kb9vqf	what new functionality did you want to see?
MutantTurkey	I am not sure what he means
MutantTurkey	social networking extensions would be great
Xu_R	what I meant by extensions is like what GNOME Shell did - to customize the interface. that's why I said scratch that for now
kb9vqf	ah, ok
kb9vqf	because we have that
kb9vqf	there's even a theme to make a pretty good copy of OSX
Xu_R	yup.
* kb9vqf is not into social networking
MutantTurkey	I know :P
kb9vqf	but if one of you wanted to work on such a thing... :)
kb9vqf	I would almost suggest that those functions should not be part of the desktop core like KDE4
MutantTurkey	indeed
kb9vqf	but rather be added to Kopete/Kontact or some other systray resident app
kb9vqf	or even a new systray app
MutantTurkey	good thinking
Xu_R	just curious - have any of you also tried GNOME shell already?
kb9vqf	that's the sad thing: KDE4 requires you to interrupt your workflow and go to a widget embedded in the desktop, whereas the old systray model allows the user to receive/handle notifications without much interruption--
Xu_R	(and the extensions system?)
kb9vqf	click and the window is up, click again and it's gone
kb9vqf	Xu_R: no I have not
kb9vqf	and probably will not
MutantTurkey	less interuption is avorable
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: I have.
kb9vqf	avorable?
Xu_R	avorable?
MutantTurkey	favorable.
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	that's the Trinity model
* Xu_R agrees
kb9vqf	in fact, the "docked apps" crud nowdays is just the systray model applied to arbitrary apps
kb9vqf	we could do that with probably a few hundred lines of code or less
MutantTurkey	yeah good thinking
kb9vqf	but why?
kb9vqf	it takes effort to design a good systray app
MutantTurkey	if its not useful, then we shouldn't do it.
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	IMO that's what the taskbar is for ;-)
MutantTurkey	I do think a certain amount of "new" stuff is good in a release!
kb9vqf	of course!
kb9vqf	but let's make it good new stuff
kb9vqf	not rehashing old ideas
MutantTurkey	indeed
kb9vqf	something sorely lacking is the equivalent of the Windows display control center
kb9vqf	that does not exist under ANY linux DE AFAIK
Xu_R	when you mean display control center
MutantTurkey	display control?
Xu_R	you're talking like the drivers, screen resolution?
MutantTurkey	I mean xfce has it
kb9vqf	really?
kb9vqf	cool
MutantTurkey	hold up
kb9vqf	hng on
MutantTurkey	let me get a screen
MutantTurkey	http://imagebin.org/164847
MutantTurkey	I don't know how it handles multiple monitors or anything ( i don't know much about how it works, and only have one screen)
Xu_R	I'm thinking kb9vqf means more like options that you can only find by modifying Xorg.conf...?
MutantTurkey	Xorg.conf doesn't exist anymore doesi t?
MutantTurkey	I know at least archlinux dropped it by default...
Xu_R	it's dropped by default, but you can still use it (Xorg.conf.d) and sometimes autoconfiguration doesn't work well
Xu_R	I know it's one reason that openSUSE went to work on making SaX3 (xorg config tool)
MutantTurkey	and doesn't kde4 have a decent one?
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kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Try the GIT now
kb9vqf	mdadm decided to reconstruct the array on /dev/sdx instead of /dev/sdx1 :-P
Xu_R	kb9vqf: is the keyserver up?
kb9vqf	Dunno yet
kb9vqf	mdadm gave enough of a scare that I haven't checked
Xu_R	ah.
kb9vqf	try the rsync
kb9vqf	rsync rsync://rsync.pearsoncomputing.net
kb9vqf	if that works then they keyserver will be up shortly
kb9vqf	*the
Xu_R	i'm not supposed to be getting timeouts, right?
kb9vqf	no
Xu_R	(both keyserver and rsync report a timeout)
kb9vqf	grrr
MutantTurkey	rsync hangs
MutantTurkey	git is up
kb9vqf	good
kb9vqf	rsync is on the malfunctioning interface
kb9vqf	the one that prompted the reboot
kb9vqf	I'll have to look into it further
Xu_R	ah...
Xu_R	i'm guessing the malfunctioning interface is quickbuild?
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	BUT
kb9vqf	it was working just fine this morning
kb9vqf	and all indications are it still works from this end
kb9vqf	so I'm wondering if my ISP is actually having the problem ATM
MutantTurkey	did you call them?
Xu_R	probably. do they have a status page?
kb9vqf	no time yet
kb9vqf	still working on bringing services up from the reboot
kb9vqf	:)
Xu_R	ah.
kb9vqf	i'll let you guys know when I know something
Xu_R	ok
MutantTurkey	qt is building away.
Xu_R	brb early dinner
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kb9vqf	MutantTurkey, Xu_R: Back online
kb9vqf	the modem kicked the interface
kb9vqf	rebooting fixed it
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Can you please check the keyservers?
MutantTurkey	cool
kb9vqf	every now and then it seems the ISP rejects a MAC address, especially under high load
kb9vqf	if this keeps up I will have to figure out why
kb9vqf	I take it everything is working now/
kb9vqf	?
MutantTurkey	I was cleaning my fan on my heatsink on an old computer a friend gave me, tried to take the fan off and the whole cpu and heatsink came with it...
MutantTurkey	haha
kb9vqf	A Pentium 4?
MutantTurkey	celeron D
MutantTurkey	just a little behind a P4
MutantTurkey	why?
kb9vqf	they have a nasty habit of gluing to the heatsink
kb9vqf	permanently
MutantTurkey	yeah
MutantTurkey	I hated P4's
MutantTurkey	but they were good workhorses
MutantTurkey	ran hot as hell
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	the bad old days!
MutantTurkey	the bad old days
MutantTurkey	now I have a slick atom :)
kb9vqf	which can't do very much IIRC
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	maybe those were the good old days :)
MutantTurkey	they do absolutely nothing :)
MutantTurkey	but nothing@12W@20C...
MutantTurkey	the computer paid itself off in power savings two years
kb9vqf	ah, but what services did you have to pay for to replace the lost functionality?
MutantTurkey	?
MutantTurkey	GAH BENT PIN :[ Processor is now useles.. ._.
Xu_R	back
kb9vqf	for example if you were building software you would now have to pay for an external build service, etc.
Xu_R	checking the keyservers
kb9vqf	ok
Xu_R	keyservers working
kb9vqf	great
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Any chance you could set your VPS to check the status of the primary Trinity services (keyserver, etc.) and send an Email to me if they are down
kb9vqf	in an automated way?
kb9vqf	That would be a GREAT help
kb9vqf	or even poke me privately on IRC, but that is probably more complex
Xu_R	that sounds like pinging each of your subdomains...
kb9vqf	ping won't work
kb9vqf	but if you can telnet to 80 on my two IP addressess then everything is OK
kb9vqf	I can write the status check software if you want
kb9vqf	it would probably be in bash though
kb9vqf	the problem is I have no way of knowing if external access to either IP is actually working
kb9vqf	e.g. this recent problem still allowed internally generated traffic through (!??!?)
Xu_R	o_o
kb9vqf	I really wish Internet service in the USA was more reliable :-/
kb9vqf	No one wants to spend money to make it so
Xu_R	:-\
MutantTurkey	hmmm seems complicated
MutantTurkey	if you want to just write a script that I can cron
MutantTurkey	it would be good
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	I'll see what I can do
kb9vqf	I just have no way of knowing if something is inaccessible until someone mentions it right now
kb9vqf	which is not a good way to handle the site
MutantTurkey	I agree.
MutantTurkey	I could have my vps check hourly, and send you an automated phone call or something?
MutantTurkey	because if the website goes down, how can we reach you?
MutantTurkey	I guess on the irc also would work
kb9vqf	email usually stays up
kb9vqf	if email is down then I have automated checks that let me know anayway
kb9vqf	*anyway
kb9vqf	can I just use the mail command on your VPS?
kb9vqf	or is that not configured?
MutantTurkey	not configured unfortunately :|
MutantTurkey	I haven't bothered to set anything up, I don't know how complicated it is
kb9vqf	oh
kb9vqf	see nullmailer
MutantTurkey	I have dinner right now, and my girlfriend will be over. hopefully I can hop on tonight
kb9vqf	sure
MutantTurkey	Assume mail command does wokr.
kb9vqf	ok
MutantTurkey	I will get it up and going
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grand_grunt	Hi! :)
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grand_grunt	I think I found a bug: when lauching kolourpaint (from trinity), then opening and editing a file from a sshfs mount, then closing kolourpaint, then umounting sshfs, at next launch kolourpaint stays stalled.
grand_grunt	strace shows that it tries to access the last opened file.
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grand_grunt	also, sshs was "unmounted" an ugly way, bash is also stalled when trying to ls it. But it is less obvious to guess where the trouble comes from when launching kolourpaint.
MutantTurkey	grand_grunt: hey
MutantTurkey	can you file that bug report?
grand_grunt	Yep, sure.
MutantTurkey	that's really easier for us
MutantTurkey	that way we don't loose track of bugs :)
grand_grunt	Was talking here first in case someone would say "corrected in latest version" or "already filled in 4 times"
MutantTurkey	grand_grunt: what version are you running?
MutantTurkey	It might not occur.
MutantTurkey	just file the bug report that way we deal with it :)
MutantTurkey	but i've gotta go! good luck with the bug and thanks for reporting it!
grand_grunt	versions: http://pastebin.com/f18zXNGy
grand_grunt	I must insist that sshfs was in ugly state, thinking twice. But used to it for direct access ("ok, stalled because I broke the ssh session"), not for a bare launching of kolourpaint.
MutantTurkey	once you report it, one of use running the SVN version can check to replicate the error, it might have beenfixed already
grand_grunt	Here it is: http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=488
tbottu	04Bug 488: minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kolourpaint, okular (maybe others) are frozen by defuncted SSHFS mount.
Xu_R	kb9vqf: are you doing nightly builds for squeeze?
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grand_grunt	http://pix.toile-libre.org/upload/original/1311639437.png <= wanted to share this with you :)
grand_grunt	good night, kind developpers.
Xu_R	lol
grand_grunt	BTW, servers for Trinity repository seems to be lagging sometimes. I own two 100Mb/s servers, can do mirrors if this may help. Just query me, will se later. going to sleep.
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Not yet for Squeeze; Natty isn't even fully built yet
Xu_R	kb9vqf: which has nightly builds? because if squeeze doesn't I would like to be able to have one with nightly builds
kb9vqf	Maverick is fully built
kb9vqf	Natty is next (in process)
kb9vqf	then Squeeze, then (maybe) Unstable\
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Check the keyserver please
Xu_R	working here...
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Xu_R	the borg arrives...
kb9vqf	Xu_R: hmm, had someone write and say that it was still down where he was at
Xu_R	kb9vqf: strange. it's working fine here...
kb9vqf	He did this
kb9vqf	apt-key adv --keyserver keyserver.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net
kb9vqf	--recv-keys 2B8638D0
kb9vqf	which would work I would think
Xu_R	yea - that's the same command I used
Xu_R	it works here
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	I may have to move that function to the other IP address
* kb9vqf does not look forward to that
Xu_R	doesn't sound fun.
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: you said you were doing builds for natty...  mind if I have a link to what you have so far? (because I accidentally installed Natty instead of Maverick)
Xu_R	it'll be a good way for me to test for any strange behavior too.
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: It's not much yet, but here you go....  https://quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/~trinity/+archive/trinity-nightly-builds/
kb9vqf	as in, I only have arts and kdelibs in there so far :-P
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I know I said it would get the whole mail thing setup
MutantTurkey	but what was supposed to be a nice night out to dinner with my famiily ended up being a disaster
MutantTurkey	heavy flash flooding caused alot of water in my basment
MutantTurkey	I have been bailing it out with a shop vac most of the night.
MutantTurkey	at this point I am wet, tired and smelling musty
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hazridi	So, I noticed knetworkmanager seems to fail at connecting to an AP using WPA1/AES, while it connects fine to an AP that is advertising WPA2 support
kb9vqf	hazridi: That is a useful bit of information
kb9vqf	Can you please verify that the gnome network manager successfully connects to the WPA1/AES AP?
kb9vqf	if so a bug report may need to be filed against knetworkmanager
hazridi	not gnome, no
hazridi	but cnetworkmanager worked fine
hazridi	(cli network manager client)
hazridi	how hard is it to build trinity components on squeeze? if I can use apt for the source I could take a look at it
kb9vqf	hazridi: It shouldn't be too hard
kb9vqf	use the Maverick repository
kb9vqf	or wait a few weeks for the Squeeze nightly builds to start
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grand_grunt	Would you like a mirror server? What are the requirements?
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raevyn	Hi! My date/time applet I have has suddenly started showing me the timezone I am in, and no longer the date. Does anyone know how to correct that?
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l0ner	hello?
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Space_Man	hi l0ner
l0ner	hi
Space_Man	grand_grunt: kb9vqf controls the master repo, there maybe a mirror somewhere idk
l0ner	problems?
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MTurkey	hello?
l0ner	hi
MTurkey	awesome!  just testing out my phone app for the meeting later.
l0ner	meeting?
Space_Man	l0ner: about 8 hours ago"<grand_grunt> Would you like a mirror server? What are the requirements?"
MTurkey	there is a devel meeting tonight at 1900
Space_Man	there is a meeting later today
l0ner	didn't know
l0ner	nice
Space_Man	"... tonight at 1900" what time zone?
l0ner	Space_Man: i've seen mirror for .deb packages somewhere (university of idaho or smthin), but requires key from kb9vqf server
MTurkey	EST
MTurkey	or Easter Daylight Time (because of daylight savings )
l0ner	and EST is UTC+?
l0ner	right now
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l0ner	i'm asking since i never really understood how EST works...
Space_Man	its like standard time and on the east
Space_Man	:P
l0ner	ok...
l0ner	uh... I'm trying to build trinity from svn sources on my gentoo
l0ner	firstpass: tqtinterface. Error: "Your Qt3 is not patched for compatibility with tqtinterface"...
kb9vqf	build our Qt3 branch first
kb9vqf	and install it
kb9vqf	build sequence is Qt3->tqtinterface->arts->kdelibs->kdebase
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l0ner	ok
l0ner	I installed qt3 from kde-sunset, thought it might work
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l0ner	actually I'm on kde from kde-sunset, and I'm already tired of fighting agains updates to kde 4 ;/
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l0ner	uh. Question: where I can find trinity qt3 branch? Can't find it on svn
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MTurkey	Xu_R: got irc on phone
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Xu_R_	MTurkey: nice
Xu_R_	i was just having server troubles here, but seems to be fixed now
Xu_R	so lemme close that webchat...
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* Xu_R had to upgrade his router to use DD-WRT because there were problems with the old firmware that never got fixed
MTurkey	so router is all ok now?
Xu_R	yea
kb9vqf	l0ner: It is in our GIT tree at http://git.trinitydesktop.org
kb9vqf	under Trinity Desktop Environment->main->dependencies
kb9vqf	you can download a tarball via the link on the bottom of the webgit page
l0ner	ok
l0ner	will look now
l0ner	why etherpad access is under registration now? wasn't something like month ago...
MTurkey	l0ner:we reset the ether
MTurkey	kb9vqf: still have trouble with qt3. building ok though now
kb9vqf	trouble?
MTurkey	packaging function is messy still
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Borg^Queen	hey people wanted let you guys know I can't be here for the meeting, been working 26 hrs straight. I'm off to sleep.
Borg^Queen	Just didn't want you lads and lasses to think you were being ditched.
Borg^Queen	gn to all
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* Strangelv missed the meeting announcement
Strangelv	:: scrolls up and sees something that looks like 18:00 CDT
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l0ner	ok, I can't compile qt3
Space_Man	pastebin the output - last few lines with the error messages
Space_Man	I've never built qt3 or trinity
Space_Man	but somebody here might be able to help
l0ner	error http://pastebin.com/4jswE6wF
l0ner	I don't like using binaries or binary-based distros. They feel bloated
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kb9vqf	l0ner: Pull Qt3 from GIT again and retry your build
kb9vqf	A patch snuck in that should not have been included, as it is Debian specific
l0ner	ok, will report if the build was successful
kb9vqf	ok, if not please verify the hash of your GIT pull, it should be 11b82515f821fbdbdd6b04f3e6695b710d1e70cd
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Please send all the patches you have to me directly
kb9vqf	I will manually put them into Patchwork
kb9vqf	send them as individual attachments
kb9vqf	on one Email message
kb9vqf	your Email program was inserting line breaks into the patch text, which made the patches completely unusable
kb9vqf	I would like to get them in to kdebase BEFORE I do the multi-distro rebuild
Xu_R	kb9vqf: I'll try to ASAP - right now my computer is having problems...
Xu_R	(you can always pull from build.opensuse.org too)
Xu_R	kb9vqf: when are you going to do the multi-distro rebuild?
kb9vqf	working on starting it now...but only up to kdelibs
kb9vqf	I only want the patches that are not already in SVN ;-)
kb9vqf	so if you could pre-filter them for me it would be a great help
Xu_R	I'll try to ASAP.
kb9vqf	OK, thanks :)
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MTurkey	work is slow
eldowan	agreed
MTurkey	yawn
eldowan	15 more minutes...
kb9vqf	?
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l0ner	damn my laptop is overheating
kb9vqf	qt3 compilation can be nasty
kb9vqf	try slowing down your CPU
l0ner	already did
kb9vqf	ohh
kb9vqf	blow out the dust from the CPU fan vent with a high pressure air source ;-)
l0ner	theorically the pcu should slow down by itself
l0ner	did this morning
kb9vqf	up to a point
kb9vqf	what CPU is it?
l0ner	intel i3 m350
kb9vqf	ah
l0ner	but it's samsung laptop
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l0ner	and this is the main problem
kb9vqf	with an undersized fan no doubt
kb9vqf	fan/heatsink
l0ner	yeah
kb9vqf	usually putting the CPU on max power saving will keep it running
kb9vqf	either that or use ctrl+z to suspend the compilation
kb9vqf	then run 'fg' to resume it when the CPU is cool enough
l0ner	and some obscure functions in bios for power management
l0ner	this is what i've been doing
kb9vqf	ah, OK
kb9vqf	I can't help much then :)
l0ner	but i got distracted, temp went up and laptop shut down
kb9vqf	uggh
kb9vqf	you do know we have Qt3 for Maverick and Natty in the nightly builds....
kb9vqf	not sure which distro you are on
l0ner	gentoo
kb9vqf	that won't help then!
l0ner	i tried ubuntu
l0ner	i just can't get over with dependencies, bloatware, and how binary distros forces things on me
l0ner	after you tried one time gentoo, you are long gone
l0ner	you will never return to binary
kb9vqf	well, when you have a fleet of computers to maintain binaries sound quite good ;-)
l0ner	you bet
l0ner	whoah! that was unexpected.
l0ner	I'm beginning to wonder if my cpu reports it's temp right...
l0ner	paused compilation and temp went instantly from 86C to 60C
l0ner	how can I access the trinity eherpad? wanted to take a look on cmake porting status
-Xu_R- Attention: Meeting in #trinity-desktop-meeting at 1900 EDT (that would be 25 minutes from now)
grand_grunt	kb9vqf: Does the trinity project have enough servers with enough bandwidth?
kb9vqf	grand_grunt: so far, as far as I can tell, yes, BUT if you want to be a mirror we'd be glad to have you
kb9vqf	all you need is a server with enough monthly bandwidth to handle file transfers daily
kb9vqf	i.e. no cap
kb9vqf	no monthly transfer cap, and no residential connections
kb9vqf	unless you are lucky enough to have fiber in your area ;-)
l0ner	live in japan and you probably will
-Xu_R- Meeting starting in ~1 minute(s).
grand_grunt	kb9vqf: I have too servers in France, with no cap on bandwidth (France is still a nice country for this)
grand_grunt	If you got a pointer about "How to make a mirror" I would be happy to do one
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	hang on a bit
kb9vqf	in a meeting
l0ner	quiet idea: a mirror of site and pgp keyserver would be nice too, since from what I've seen they have problems sometimes...
grand_grunt	Another idea: some round robin DNS would be also nice
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Xu_R	now to fix this computer. brb
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kb9vqf	grand_grunt: I do have round robin set up for the mirrors
kb9vqf	you can rsync from rsync://rsync.pearsoncomputing.net
kb9vqf	send me the URL when you complete the initial download
kb9vqf	set it to sync every day or so
kb9vqf	(every 24 hours)
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l0ner	ok, i finished compiling qt3
l0ner	but it
l0ner	stays in build dir
l0ner	and don't go to dir included in $QTDIR
* l0ner is going to getsome sleep. Needs to wake up in 7 hours.
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grand_grunt	kb9vqf: Ok, thanks :)
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Strangelv_	Did I completely miss the meeting?
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Xu_R	Strangelv_: yea :(
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MutantTurkey	Xu_R: can you update the meeting page on the wiki once your logs sync?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I've been reviewing the links on the main website, i thikn some of them can just go into the devel section of the website.
Xu_R	sure - but feel free to remind me, I might forget
kb9vqf	correct
kb9vqf	just make me a list... :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I think patches, SVN, andRoadmap can go into it.
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	send along those suggestions in the Email :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: :) ok!
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: also is that news system I setup working ok?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	it's great!
MutantTurkey	excellent.
MutantTurkey	I knew it would be, simple and easy!
kb9vqf	when natty nightly builds are done there will be a new new entry...
kb9vqf	*news
MutantTurkey	yep
MutantTurkey	I also am looking into using your quickbuilds for archlinux. In fact it's often quite easy to convert packages to different distros
MutantTurkey	that might save me a lot of trouble, building and packaging wise
kb9vqf	sounds good to me
kb9vqf	if you manage to automate the conversion process let me know
kb9vqf	and I will autogenerate the Arch packages
kb9vqf	with your automated scripts
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: ok that would be cool.
MutantTurkey	you could also just build them regularly.
MutantTurkey	all you need is our package manager installed (not managing, just installed) I think you could just do that.
kb9vqf	what format are your packages?
Xu_R	which makes me wonder - kb9vqf - when we move to git, will we have hooks set up? I can just have the hooks call a rebuild of any packages
kb9vqf	.deb, .rpm?
kb9vqf	yes, hooks will be available
MutantTurkey	pkg.tar.{gz,bzip2,bzip,xz}
kb9vqf	hmm
kb9vqf	ok
Xu_R	great - all I need is an API call to api.o.o.
MutantTurkey	its a custom one :)
kb9vqf	I can't easily do release updates with that as QuickBuild can't understand it, but I can provide nightly / automated builds and let you pick and choose the release package set
kb9vqf	not sure yet
MutantTurkey	right we can talk later.
MutantTurkey	also, could you send me current php page from the website? they are all post-processed so it's not good to use
MutantTurkey	wait... maybe if i just use one that isn't using any formatting it'll be ok.
MutantTurkey	nevermind!
MutantTurkey	Actually, I probably need one emailed to me :P
kb9vqf	I can add the PHP stuff
kb9vqf	headers/footers
kb9vqf	I just need the body :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: ok I will send just the body portion
MutantTurkey	also: http://ekaia.org/blog/2011/02/07/post-and-pre-release-fun/
MutantTurkey	that notes that "One of the goals for wheezy is remove completely KDE 3 and Qt 3. "
MutantTurkey	wheezy is debian 7
kb9vqf	nice :-P
kb9vqf	I'll be providing Qt3 anyway
kb9vqf	Qt4 is NOT a replacement for certain workloads
kb9vqf	and I would hate for people to stop using Debian or Linux
kb9vqf	just because Qt4 is a bloated unstable piece of garbage sometimes
MutantTurkey	yes I feel the same way about gtk3 (which is even worse that 2.x...)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf:other than links, do we need anything else?
kb9vqf	stopped using GTK as soon as the tools became steaming piles of trash
kb9vqf	the graphical dev tools that is
kb9vqf	when the icons in buttons start overlapping on the text with no way to fix it...well....
MutantTurkey	I never have worked with the graphical dev tools (didn't even realized they existed)
MutantTurkey	I am only using them for simple applications anyhow
kb9vqf	A quick description of the development tools and mailing list might be nice, but other than that for now the links alone are OK
kb9vqf	Yes, they exist(ed)
Xu_R	and they're crap
kb9vqf	but rapidly became a mess
MutantTurkey	yeah
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: I actually like gtk for small things.
MutantTurkey	I am neither a qt or gtk guy though
kb9vqf	I use Qt4 for small things
MutantTurkey	I prefer good old ncurses :)
kb9vqf	that are unlikely to grow
Xu_R	:P
kb9vqf	basically only for single-purpose apps that should never be expected to blend in with any DE :)
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	should i link to git.trinity or scm.trinity
kb9vqf	git.trinity
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: lol did you see the picture at my work today? slowest shift ever.
Xu_R	looking now...
Xu_R	lol nice.
MutantTurkey	finally got my glasses.
MutantTurkey	weird to adjust
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: Xu_R: so far: SVN, git, devel web (wiki), roadmap, etherpad, Nightly builds, mailing list
Xu_R	yup
MutantTurkey	http://mutantturkey.com/contributors.html
MutantTurkey	sorry, the page title and name is wrong, but content?
MutantTurkey	also CSS isn't applied
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HardDisk_WP	hey
HardDisk_WP	i'm one of the LiMux developers of the city of Munich
HardDisk_WP	we're using Trinity 3.5.12 and have a problem
HardDisk_WP	when you right-click on the Home tab of the side bar, the contextmenu opens only if you click on the top ("Home") entry
HardDisk_WP	when you right-click on the subdirectories, nothing happens
HardDisk_WP	the other tabs (bookmarks) are not affected by this problem, right-clicking works there
HardDisk_WP	any idea?
Space_Man	HardDisk_WP: I'm not a Trinity developer, I'm only a user
Space_Man	but I do remember there was some discussion of a bug that affected Konqueror
Space_Man	the mouse right click did not work on the directories in the left hand column
Space_Man	I think it was fixed a few months ago by samellian
Space_Man	look in the git repo :P
Space_Man	or ask on the mailing list
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MutantTurkey	o/
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slackware_user	Hi! is it possible to install trinity on debian sid?
MutantTurkey	slackware_user: not on slackware?
MutantTurkey	:P
MutantTurkey	yes it is possible!
slackware_user	)
slackware_user	where to get build scripts or something?
MutantTurkey	we provided packages
slackware_user	for SID?
MutantTurkey	maybe not
MutantTurkey	isn't sid stable now?
slackware_user	sid always unstable
MutantTurkey	oh :x
slackware_user	so it may be worth to make buildscripts or something
MutantTurkey	maybe try our packages though
MutantTurkey	it may work
MutantTurkey	http://trinitydesktop.org/installation.php
MutantTurkey	there are  squeeze packages
eldowan	it works great on squeeze!
slackware_user	i try to install them now
MutantTurkey	:)
slackware_user	broken packages...
slackware_user	unmet dependencies
slackware_user	is it possible to publish build scripts for debian?
MutantTurkey	yes.
MutantTurkey	well for the scripts, you could ask kb9vqf
kb9vqf	debian build files are in our GIT tree
kb9vqf	but be forewarned we currently have gcc4.6 issues
kb9vqf	these are being solved now
slackware_user	&#1086;&#1082;.
MutantTurkey	:)
slackware_user	scripts are for svn or for releases?
kb9vqf	you might want to use the Ubuntu Maverick build files for now
kb9vqf	they are just the debian directories for each source folder in SVN
kb9vqf	you have to copy the appropriate debian directory to the appropriate SVN source folder
kb9vqf	then run dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot
kb9vqf	in each source folder
kb9vqf	this is automated on my systems, but tightly integrated with QuickBuild
kb9vqf	so my scripts would be of no use to you
kb9vqf	but the debian/ folders in GIT are universal
slackware_user	ok. i ll try
slackware_user	what's url of git repo?
kb9vqf	hang on
kb9vqf
kb9vqf	git clone http://scm.trinitydesktop.org/scm/git/tde-packaging
kb9vqf	the debian/* build folder will only work with 3.5.12
slackware_user	thanx
kb9vqf	the ubuntu/maverick/* build folder will only work with SVN
kb9vqf	Just keep that in mind :)
slackware_user	ok. i ll first try to build 3.5.12
kb9vqf	yes, updates are planned, currently in the middle of a Natty build that is draining the build system resources quite badly
kb9vqf	ok
slackware_user	btw how soon can be released 3.6?
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kb9vqf	not sure yet
kb9vqf	we're waiting on bugfixes
kb9vqf	so it really depends on how complex they end up being
slackware_user	ok
kb9vqf	I'd like to see 3.5.13 released in the late fall 2001
kb9vqf	2011 rather
raevyn	Hello. Does anyone know why Pidgen wont run in Trinity?
kb9vqf	probably an issue with the Trinity file picker
slackware_user	btw.. after clone debian folder contains 2 folders which are empty
kb9vqf	yes...hmmm....
kb9vqf	never uploaded Debian to GIT I guess :-/
slackware_user	)
kb9vqf	you can use the ubuntu/maverick_automake folder to build 3.5.12
raevyn	file picker?
raevyn	is there a way to fix it?
kb9vqf	raevyn: Try this
kb9vqf	go to a terminal and run
slackware_user	2 folders with .gitignore
raevyn	k
kb9vqf	LD_PRELOAD= pidgin
kb9vqf	slackware_user: ubuntu/maverick_automake is not empty on my end
raevyn	that works! just typing pidgin gives a segmentation fault
kb9vqf	raevyn: Then there is definitely a problem with the file picker
kb9vqf	any chance you can get a backtrace with GDB and create a bug report?
kb9vqf	so that it can be fixed in 3.5.13?
slackware_user	ubuntu/maverick isnt empty
raevyn	:( Im sorry.. if i was walked through I could
kb9vqf	that's ok
kb9vqf	I can do the same thing eventually
kb9vqf	just create a bug report for now, unless one already exists
kb9vqf	slackware_user: See http://git.trinitydesktop.org/viewgit/index.php?a=tree&p=Trinity%20Desktop%20Environment%20Packaging&h=5b9d7093413631b6975997955bef919545eca795&hb=e9b162a733491b74bd7d56edd9f1314f83a8c571
raevyn	okay
kb9vqf	you must have an incomplete checkout
raevyn	oh it has bugs reported i guess.. though nothing about using ldpreload
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	it's a temporary fix
kb9vqf	it works by disabling the file picker
raevyn	<nod> bummer.. i cant make a menu item for it that way
kb9vqf	sure
kb9vqf	don't worry, I consider this a major/blocker bug
raevyn	oh yay! i like pidgin WAY more than empathy
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	It's not just pidgin
kb9vqf	audacity also crashes
kb9vqf	and a handful of other GTK apps
raevyn	ohh.. is it specific gtk apps?
slackware_user	maybe its due to sound system?
raevyn	i am finding an oddity that maybe is realted?
kb9vqf	it is something with the file picker handling on certain GTK apps
kb9vqf	probably the Trinity file picker does not implement a certain GTK call
kb9vqf	the backtrace should show that quickly
kb9vqf	(working on grabbing one now)
raevyn	Oh.. then it probably isnt. Graphics on GTK apps seems to like.. disapear at times. buttons and menus items until hovered over
kb9vqf	that's probably the Qt3 integration
slackware_user	building qt3 first?
kb9vqf	which is a separate module altogether
kb9vqf	slackware_user: Yes
kb9vqf	do that from our GIT tree
slackware_user	fails at clean...
MutantTurkey	slackware_user: our tree
kb9vqf	the main Qt3 branch is in the main GIT tree under main/dependencies/qt3
kb9vqf	it contains a debian/ folder already
kb9vqf	IIRC
slackware_user	ok ill try
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raevyn	so will the new release still operate and look like ti does now?
MutantTurkey	raevyn: yes
raevyn	what will the new release have? O! will it have touch functionatlity?
kb9vqf	if Xorg supports it....
kb9vqf	but if you want an actual "touch" OS use KDE4
kb9vqf	it's designed for that
kb9vqf	or Windows 8
kb9vqf	Trinity is going to stay a mouse+keyboard driven DE
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kb9vqf	lots of good alternatives for a touch driven DE
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raevyn	ah okay. so the way it looks and runs now will stay, but bugs and such willl be fixed?
slackware_user	libavahi-qt3-dev missing on sid
slackware_user	where to get qt3-trinity for debian ?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	have to build libavahi-qt3-dev then from source...
slackware_user	are there build scripts for these packages?
kb9vqf	not sure
kb9vqf	look in debian for them
kb9vqf	that is, in the last debian release
kb9vqf	packages.debian.org
slackware_user	it seems that in sid that packsage was moved to repo at debian-ports.org
slackware_user	and there is no package for both amd64 and x86
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calvin	wow
calvin	kb9vqf: I am trying out kde 4.6 for first time
calvin	just with irssi open it is using 600mb ram!
calvin	its terribly slow.
kb9vqf	oh nice~
kb9vqf	:-P
calvin	I will admit it looks very pretty, but its lagging oddly bad.
kb9vqf	looks nice but is unusable for work
kb9vqf	sounds familiar
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MutantTurkey	seems as if its indexing stuff in the backgroun alot.
MutantTurkey	my cpu is spliking randomly
kb9vqf	yes, that's probably nepomuk
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	whatever that is.
kb9vqf	something that cannot be turned off as an index is now somehow integral to a desktop environment (!???)
kb9vqf	yuck
MutantTurkey	i never used indexing
kb9vqf	only indexer I used was Google Desktop Search
kb9vqf	which, oddly enough, never ate my CPU or RAM!
MutantTurkey	hurm
kb9vqf	(it is smart enough to know when a user is active)
MutantTurkey	this is terrible.
MutantTurkey	it has a nice feel but even the menus and desktop are unusable.
MutantTurkey	anyway I gotta split. just thought i'd say that.
kb9vqf	nice feel?
kb9vqf	I though feel was influenced by usability ;-0
* Xu_R notes that kde 4.7 was released today
* Xu_R also notes that kdePIM 4.6+ is still largely unusable
* Strangelv_ remembers integrated indexing and search. Ties up CPU and fills up all that pesky unused disk space?
kb9vqf	No no...as the KDE4 devs would say it "Utilizes unused system resources to fulfill a needed function"
kb9vqf	:-P
Xu_R	XD
* kb9vqf wouldn't use Nepomuk if it was the only indexer on the planet
kb9vqf	Fortuantely it isn't, and I think every alternative is better :-P
Xu_R	blehh... and I still can't believe that we need MySQL for a desktop.
kb9vqf	we don't
Xu_R	exactly!
Xu_R	tell the kde4 devs that
kb9vqf	Amarok uses it IIRC, but that is because people have music collections of thousands of tracks these days
Xu_R	which is a good reason
Xu_R	but for the rest of the desktop... sqlite seems so much better to me...
kb9vqf	Amarok can use SQLite too
kb9vqf	in fact I guess it does so by default
kb9vqf	:eek: tornado watch + warnings near my location
kb9vqf	not good
Xu_R	kb9vqf: stay safe
Xu_R	(we have tornado watch and warnings here all the time. they all seem to hit west of my area xD)
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: wow.
MutantTurkey	I just got back --- Still  hogging my cpu
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: wow.0~that is ridiculous.
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: actually I don't use Amarok and I still have 15,000+ songs
MutantTurkey	its just called being organized :)
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MutantTurkey	~/music/artist/album/ tada!
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: nice XP
MutantTurkey	I do like plasma widgets :x
MutantTurkey	they are a bit bloaty for my likening, but i do find some useful.
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: what distro are you trying kde4 on?
MutantTurkey	I just like the idea of embedding windows in my desktop - I have actually started implemenations of ideas for that
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: arch.
MutantTurkey	I had mockups for embedding windows in the root window, enver got anywhere.
Xu_R	ah. I've always used kde4 on suse - and for some reason I can run it smoothly on 512 mb, so it got to be less of a problem than I thought
MutantTurkey	I dunno... I have 530 ram usage right now.
MutantTurkey	and only irssi is open
Xu_R	damn.
MutantTurkey	on xfce its like 150mb
Xu_R	so bloated still...
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hazridi	kde4 isnt that bad as of kde 4.6, it's a lot faster than it used to be
hazridi	maybe in 2-3 years it'll be usable :P
K`zan	OPtomist :-)
hazridi	I'd rather use it than gnome... shiver
MutantTurkey	this is terrible.
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K`zan	I'd rather (and do) use gnome before kcrap4
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: Can you see if there is a patch to enable V4L2 support for Kopete?
kb9vqf	in OpenSUSE, or similar distributions?
Xu_R	sure
kb9vqf	I may end up having to backport this http://websvn.kde.org/?view=revision&revision=738522
kb9vqf	and this http://websvn.kde.org/?view=revision&revision=1226213
kb9vqf	and a couple other minor ones
kb9vqf	but I don't want to if I don't have to ;-)
Xu_R	kb9vqf: nope, can't seem to find any D:
kb9vqf	Darn
kb9vqf	Feel up to some backporting?
Xu_R	love to, but not atm - I've got to finish bills while my parents are out-of-town X_X
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	I'll probably have to do it then :-P
Xu_R	are those kde3 patches or kde4?
kb9vqf	those are KDE34 patches
kb9vqf	KDE4
kb9vqf	to relatively low level code
kb9vqf	(meaning there isn't much reliance on Qt0
* kb9vqf can't type
kb9vqf	(meaning there isn't much reliance on Qt)
Xu_R	ah.
kb9vqf	nevermind, there is still support for the V4L1 API available
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	Why anyone needs V4L2 features for a webcam is beyond me!
Xu_R	XD
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Z_God	kb9vqf: I haven't seen any installation instructions yet for a fresh install of Trinity on Natty, would that still be useful? I could provide them if so, it's almost the same as installing fresh on Maverick.
kb9vqf	I'm actually building Natty packages now, so you might want to wait a bit and make sure your instructions work with the new packages
kb9vqf	I can let you know when they are available for testing
Z_God	cool :)
Z_God	actually I just installed the maverick packages, but I also had to add the maverick universe and maverick-updates main repository to get all the dependencies satisfied
kb9vqf	ok
Z_God	I also wonder if you are considering a 3.5.12 release for ubuntu lucid
kb9vqf	not sure yet
Z_God	most of the systems and people I support run Ubuntu Lucid with Trinity, so it would have a big impact for me ;)
kb9vqf	gotcha
kb9vqf	I'll see how practical that is
Z_God	ok, what kind of problems could be there?
Z_God	the current systems are quite stable though
Z_God	especially when people use only trinity (which is almost always)
kb9vqf	basically old/outdated libraries
kb9vqf	hopefully that won't be too much of an issue
Z_God	ok
kb9vqf	then there is the fact that builds take a few days of computer cluster time
kb9vqf	which uses a lot of $$$$ worth of power
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	(by bulids I mean new builds for a new distribution)
kb9vqf	basically a full rebuild
Z_God	ok, an incremental upgrade doesn't make sense?
kb9vqf	You can't just do an incremental build
Z_God	I remember in the olden days some distros would only update kdelibs for example and then later some packages
kb9vqf	To add 3.5.12 or 3.5.13 to a distribution you need a full rebuild
Z_God	I'd have konqueror 2.2.1 on kde 2.2.2 for a while
Z_God	ok
kb9vqf	it's not good practice
kb9vqf	it can itroduce many subtle bugs
kb9vqf	*introduce
kb9vqf	especially if compiler versions have changed
kb9vqf	(which they have under Ubuntu post-release)
Z_God	significantly?
kb9vqf	even a minor version bump can cause problems
kb9vqf	as I said subtle and hard to trace problems :)
Z_God	I'd say that's a bug in the compiler though...
kb9vqf	not really
Z_God	but yeah I can imagine you'd rather do a full recompile then
kb9vqf	compatibility is not guaranteed across compiler versions
kb9vqf	not to mention if kdelibs has one class change, the entire suite must be rebuilt
kb9vqf	we have a more agressive change policy on Trinity than on KDE3
kb9vqf	to make sure that the desktop stays up to date
Z_God	I don't fully understand why it wouldn't be ABI compatible, but I know very little about this
kb9vqf	(not for user visible elements, just for backend stuff)
kb9vqf	In 99% of cases there would be no problem
kb9vqf	but then I get bugs reported for the other 1%
kb9vqf	and they are very hard to trace
kb9vqf	Better safe than sorry IMO
Z_God	yep, I understand
Z_God	do you know what would be needed for the bluetooth support btw?
Z_God	I'm running blueman now in trinity which does a pretty much perfect job
kb9vqf	great
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kb9vqf	!seen MutantTurkey
tbottu	kb9vqf: MutantTurkey was last seen in #trinity-desktop 2 days, 20 hours, 22 minutes, and 41 seconds ago: <MutantTurkey> this is terrible.
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kb9vqf	Airplane crash in Aurora disabled Internet connection for around 8 hours Sunday (07/31/2011); all services are now back online
Xu_R	kb9vqf: wait, airplane crash? o_o so it went into the power and internet lines?
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	complete mess
Xu_R	my god...
* Xu_R looks up the news
kb9vqf	not too many pictures available
kb9vqf	but one showed cables on the ground everywhere
* kb9vqf notes that his luck this year is just despicable
Xu_R	xD
Xu_R	oh, this has it: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-experimental-airplane-crashes-near-aurora-airport-pilot-killed-20110731,0,816843.story
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	that's it
kb9vqf	although the ISP metioned that the fiber lines were cut as well
kb9vqf	in addition to the power
Xu_R	:-\
* kb9vqf wonders what's next...a hurricane?
Xu_R	I would hope not that far north o_o
kb9vqf	maybe 5 inches of ice :)
Xu_R	more likely XD
kb9vqf	any progress on fixing bugs?
kb9vqf	there are a number of gcc4.6 fixes in SVN now, so you shouldn't have very many build problems
Xu_R	I downloaded another copy of maverick
Xu_R	so i'm going to re-put trinity back on there
Xu_R	since natty builds aren't finished yet
Xu_R	I also started re-doing the spec files for opensuse
Xu_R	(haven't pushed them to git yet(
Xu_R	*)
Xu_R	man, they really overpatched kde 3.5.10 o_o
kb9vqf	same with Qt3
kb9vqf	both were long overdue for a new release
Xu_R	yea.
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: there's no sudo-trinity for maverick?
Xu_R	(ps - in nightly builds)
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Piki	hi
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Piki	i see tbottu is a little power hungry :-)
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destroyfx	For the Etherpad, it's admin validation for the registration?
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mutantturkey	o/
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kb9vqf	destroyfx: Did you attempt to register?
kb9vqf	recently?
destroyfx	yes, today
kb9vqf	OK, I will approve the registration
kb9vqf	we have to be careful of spammers
destroyfx	ah, ok :)
destroyfx	thanks!
kb9vqf	np
kb9vqf	email sent
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mutantturkey	kb9vqf: did you import the qt3 patch you reported as a bug in the tracker?
kb9vqf	bug number?
mutantturkey	bug 484
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=484 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Qt3 needs patching to build under ARM
* kb9vqf goes to check
kb9vqf	mutantturkey: Yes
mutantturkey	okay Ill mark as fixed
Xu_R	kb9vqf: question - do you have a working sudo-trinity for maverick in nightly builds?
kb9vqf	did you check the build dependencies PPA?
Xu_R	yup
Xu_R	I only have a sudo-kde3
kb9vqf	ohh...oops :)
kb9vqf	I'll correct that as soon as I can
kb9vqf	the build farm's a bit busy right now chewing on koffice
Xu_R	ok :P I can't install my nightly build on maverick until I have that XP
Xu_R	ewww, koffice
mutantturkey	LibreOffice just released 3.4.2
kb9vqf	odd; it let me install kdelbs/kdebase without it
Xu_R	kb9vqf: I know... it's all installable w/o sudo-trinity >_>
Xu_R	only ran into that when I tried to install kdpkg-trinity, which wants sudo-trinity
kb9vqf	yes, that makes sense
kb9vqf	poke me tomorrow about it :)
kb9vqf	too busy today
Xu_R	ok
kb9vqf	I can't believe how many "programmers" thought code was OK that now throws this
kb9vqf	error:   for a function-style cast, remove the redundant '::QPen'
kb9vqf	:-P
mutantturkey	kb9vqf: low quality control, thats how they release so fast.
kb9vqf	it would never occur to me to write code like this TQString::TQString("Hi!")
kb9vqf	oh well
mutantturkey	and release cylces are speeding up.
kb9vqf	so that's the excuse for Windows 8? :-)
mutantturkey	KDE3 was in functionality for quite a while. KDE4 is already at 4.8... 5 is in planning stages
kb9vqf	and it's still a bloated unusable pile of garbage
kb9vqf	nice
mutantturkey	or at least qt5 is in planning by nokia
mutantturkey	yeah basically.
mutantturkey	honestly, I think windows is doing some good with 8.
mutantturkey	It is at least standardizing and forcing them to use open technologies
Xu_R	have you seen Meego?
mutantturkey	because then all windows apps will run on all platforms
kb9vqf	inferior tech nonetheless
kb9vqf	even if it is open
mutantturkey	kb9vqf: obviously. but either way  Idon't use windows
kb9vqf	:)
Xu_R	people say everything is good if it's open-source. it's not good if it's open-source + crap :P
mutantturkey	Xu_R: but the open source model is superioir
mutantturkey	to the closed source
mutantturkey	in most cases.
kb9vqf	KDE4 is proving you wrong
kb9vqf	;)
Xu_R	true - but the quality of the software is something to think about XD
mutantturkey	kb9vqf: now imagine if KDE4 was closed source. it would be 50x worse
kb9vqf	yes, I know, I know
kb9vqf	it seems that the worst traits of both models are on display lately
Xu_R	I wish Nokia didn't scrap Meego for Windows Phone... >_>
kb9vqf	I know
Xu_R	because people hate Windows Phone but love Meego
Xu_R	and yet it's dead on arrival to stores
mutantturkey	I like the windows phone...
mutantturkey	The interface is actually clean and intuitive.
mutantturkey	compared to apple and android
mutantturkey	I really need a clean interface, and a really well integrated one (which is one thing i hate about linux...)
kb9vqf	evil thought...M$ probably thinks that the desktop is disappearing and they want to write their apps once and have them work on both the software-as-a-service Web stuff and their "desktop OS"
Xu_R	xD
kb9vqf	hence the emphasis on web technologies
Xu_R	desktop OS... there's no way I'm moving to windows 8
* kb9vqf will never EVER rent space on other people's mainframes
kb9vqf	too great a liklihood the other party makes your vital data inacecssable at some point
mutantturkey	i dont trust the cloud.
kb9vqf	s/mainframes/software-as-a-service cloud/g ;)
kb9vqf	this is all old tech
kb9vqf	old ideas
mutantturkey	anyway
kb9vqf	back on topic? ;-)
Xu_R	maybe ;P
mutantturkey	back on topic? I am really annoyed with the fact that I can't get kde3 working and I don't have time to work on it. I am debating about installing debian in a chroot just to work with it
kb9vqf	Xu_R: How are your spec files coming
kb9vqf	mutantturkey: Which distribution do you use?
Xu_R	kb9vqf: working on it, may run builds locally soon, but not right this second. still a mess xP
mutantturkey	Arch...
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	understandable
mutantturkey	I don't want to compromise either way.
mutantturkey	i want arch + trinity. :P
mutantturkey	wish david was still around. He actually understands building on arch
kb9vqf	try the mailing list
kb9vqf	sometimes people take breaks
kb9vqf	it's healthy to do so :)
mutantturkey	good thinking
mutantturkey	I need to take a good stab at it.
mutantturkey	I am hoping a night this week I can sit down with a few hours and work
destroyfx	I'm thinking about making Trinity ebuild for Funtoo and Gentoo
mutantturkey	destroyfx: that would be sweet
Xu_R	samelian was working on that with kde-sunset, I think?
mutantturkey	we have a trinity packaging repo
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mutantturkey	destroyfx: git clone http://scm.trinitydesktop.org/scm/git/tde-packaging if you are intrested
mutantturkey	I don't think we have any for gentoo now. so someone working on it would be cool
destroyfx	what tde-packaging?
mutantturkey	it's where we keep all our build scripts for distros
kb9vqf	it contains all distribution-specific packaging files, ready to be copied into the vanilla Trinity source
destroyfx	For kde-sunset, I hear that the ebuild was planed but are actually canceled. Only KDE 3.5.10 are present
kb9vqf	yes, they suggested using a new ebuild
destroyfx	ah, ok :p I will chack that this evening
destroyfx	I just made some patch for KDE 3.5.10 in kde-submit... Because of some ::Stupid(error) preventing some packages to compile in GCC 4.5
kb9vqf	there are a number of gcc4.5/gcc4.6 fixes in the Trinity SVN
kb9vqf	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/patches/
destroyfx	yeah, I read that. But I will need to make a ton of ebuilds first prior to use
kb9vqf	sure
kb9vqf	just wanted to let you know they were there
kb9vqf	:)
jumpship	Is anyone using Debian Squeeze with trinity and have KDE4 installed to use some of the KDE4 programs?
kb9vqf	I have some experience with KDE4 installed alongside Trinity under Ubuntu
jumpship	I don't wanna break trinity, so I've been trying to hold off with some programs, is the stable pkgs of trinity pretty safe with KDE4 alongside?
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mutantturkey	kb9vqf: I see a commit revision (r1242480) saying that everything has been completely moved to .trinity and /etc/trinity?
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	the old kde3 prefix is now dropped
kb9vqf	otherwise it's just too confusing
kb9vqf	depending on which distribution you use it could be ~/.kde, ~/.kde3, or ~/.trinity
kb9vqf	a simple 'mv ~/.kde3 ~/.trinity' will work
kb9vqf	I will probably have to detect the .kde3 directory for a while still
kb9vqf	in startkde
kb9vqf	but all new installs will put the profile in ~/.trinity
mutantturkey	maybe a migration script
mutantturkey	when 3.5.13 is released
kb9vqf	probably
mutantturkey	might be easier to leave it up to users
kb9vqf	yes
mutantturkey	so what about bugs like 459?
kb9vqf	Trinity still obeys KDEHOME
kb9vqf	bug 459?
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=459 blocker, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Detecting $KDEHOME to avoid conflicts with KDE3 and KDE4
kb9vqf	ah
mutantturkey	does KDE4 use $KDEHOME also?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	I thought that bug was fixed
kb9vqf	hmmm
mutantturkey	It might be, I was just browsing
kb9vqf	startkde should search in this order: ~/.trinity, ~/.kde3, ~/.kde
kb9vqf	and should only create ~/.trinity
mutantturkey	so what about this situation:
kb9vqf	in fact, IMHO, it shouldn't even look for ~/.kde
mutantturkey	someone has kde4 previously, so .kde is there , then they install trinity, then what?
kb9vqf	see above :)
mutantturkey	but they don't have .trinity on first run.
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	startkde should search in this order: ~/.trinity, ~/.kde3
kb9vqf	and ignore ~/.kde
mutantturkey	Agreed.
kb9vqf	if ~/.trinity and ~/.kde3 don't exist then it should create ~/.trinity
kb9vqf	s/and/or/g
mutantturkey	that sounds valid
mutantturkey	eventually.. very distant future drop .kde3
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	but at this point NEVER EVER create a ~/.kde3 directory :)
kb9vqf	I haven't looked in startkde recently
kb9vqf	so I don't know how much of that logic is already in place
kb9vqf	I know some of it is
kb9vqf	but not all of it
mutantturkey	okay
mutantturkey	should I mark that bug with anything?
kb9vqf	it must block KDE 3.5.13
kb9vqf	and you might want to append the logic described above
kb9vqf	regarding searching
kb9vqf	Oh, this is fun: on Natty, how do you like this library path location: /lib/i386-linux-gnu/libdbus-1.so
kb9vqf	ick ick ick
mutantturkey	why!
mutantturkey	thats terrible
mutantturkey	ubuntu is moving farther away from linux every release.
mutantturkey	and is completely devoid of the unix philosophy
kb9vqf	I have no idea
kb9vqf	All I can say is YUCK
kb9vqf	that's even worse than the lib/ vs lib64/ stuff
kb9vqf	fortunately it only broke k9copy
kb9vqf	and I think I fixed that
Xu_R	o_o
mutantturkey	i know.
mutantturkey	well /lib32/ i am okay with.
mutantturkey	because Arch has a really simple way to setup 32bit on 64bit machines
kb9vqf	yes, but there should still be a symlink from /lib to /lib32 then
kb9vqf	or /lib64 depending on the machine architecture
mutantturkey	it's just an extra repo, and that's it.
mutantturkey	kb9vqf: yep
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mutantturkey	kb9vqf: funny enough he just posted on the arch ml about trinity
mutantturkey	David that is
kb9vqf	only good things I hope? ;-)
mutantturkey	just some package error conflict, easily resolved
mutantturkey	i took it as an opportunity to email him
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mutantturkey	kb9vqf: heading out. I am looking at some bugs tonight. might be on later.
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* Strangelv__ wonders if someone could get away with filing a bug report for /lib/i386-linux-gnu/
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destroyfx	it's okay if I repackage all the file in .bz2 format and if I put the correct directory name. exemple, when I unpack kdelibs-3.5.12.tar.gz, I must get the kdelibs-3.5.12 folder instead of a plain kdelibs folder
destroyfx	I can mirror them too (all your packages plus those I will make)
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raevyn	Hai :) Im using the shell to start Pidgin but everytime I close it, Pidgin closes as well. Is there some way to like, start it and then let me  close the shell without losing pidgin?
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Space_Man	I think you can add && after pidgin
Space_Man	pidgin &&
kb9vqf	pidgin &
kb9vqf	exit
kb9vqf	also, there is a fix in SVN for this...if you are feeling adventurous you can install the nightly builds for Maverick or Natty....
raevyn	thank you!
kb9vqf	np
raevyn	oh i might.. i was going to ask, when i loaded kde 3 on my machine, i already loaded kde 4 and now, my menu is goofy. is there a way to reset my menu?
kb9vqf	menu is goofy?
kb9vqf	how so?
kb9vqf	screenshots may help here :)
raevyn	okay well, if i log in as another user, the menu will show what app is kde 3 and kde 4, such as the control panel. but in mine it doesnt so some items start with the kde4 interface rather than 3
raevyn	oh okay.. i will try to get screenshots tonight for you :)
raevyn	Im at work right now so I can chat but not really do anything too intensive
raevyn	How would i install the build? Im not super savvy in linux yet so I used your instructions to get it on Ubuntu 10.10.
* Xu_R nudges at kb9vqf for missing sudo-trinity in the nightlys
kb9vqf	Xu_R: It was uploaded last night to the nightly build dependencies
Xu_R	ok - checking now
kb9vqf	raevyn: First I would back up your machine ;-)
kb9vqf	Then you can swap out the nightly build repository deb and deb-src lines in your /etc/apt/sources.list file
kb9vqf	hmmm...on second thought, there are missing metapackages in that repository ATM
kb9vqf	so you can't really upgrade
raevyn	:) always good practice.
raevyn	oh.. well then.. i guess i will wait :P
kb9vqf	sorry
kb9vqf	new installs are OK
kb9vqf	upgrades need metapackages that are not yet uploaded
* kb9vqf forgot about that since he installed Trinity from scratch on his development machines
* Xu_R is about to do the kde3 -> trinity deadly upgrade from stable -> nightly XD
Xu_R	kb9vqf: I don't see sudo-trinity still D:
raevyn	is that disc that is made with trinity Ubuntu, just no gnome? I would like to have the hardware checking and easy software installation of ubuntu but use TDE is all
Xu_R	strange. I see it right on mirror.tokra.lv...
Xu_R	well... that's strange.
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: Mirrors may not have synced yet
kb9vqf	they are on a 24 hour cycle
kb9vqf	so I would wait until tomorrow
Xu_R	kb9vqf: I just downloaded sudo-trinity from the mirror, it's just not in the repo meta yet...
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kb9vqf	be careful...some of those pacakges are for Debian....
kb9vqf	*packages
Xu_R	ah, true.
* Xu_R forgot that you built for debian way back before .-."
kb9vqf	and will build for Debian again...
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MutantTurkey	Xu_R: what's up man
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Xu_R	hey MutantTurkey
Xu_R	ah, damnit. lost him by a few minutes
Xu_R	kb9vqf: I see a sudo-trinity for maverick! :D
kb9vqf	ah, good :)
Xu_R	looks like the repo meta is also refreshd
kb9vqf	so now I should see some bugfixes soon? ;-)
Xu_R	*refreshed
Xu_R	indeed
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Xu_R|ZNC	kb9vqf: before I head out for tennis: I see a python-dcop and python-kde3 fof kde3, but not for trinity...
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kb9vqf	not surprised...those packages are a mess and it may take some time before I build them
Xu_R	ah, ok
kb9vqf	they are also not needed for 99% of Trinity apps
Xu_R	ok
* kb9vqf is NOT a Python guru and is seriously considering dropping them from the Ubuntu builds if they don't work out of the box
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Xu_R	back from tennis - downpour started as soon as I got to the courts >_>
Xu_R	kb9vqf: a lot of packages are missing from the mirrors o_o
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	like what?
Xu_R	kdm, ksplash, kdebase, etc
Xu_R	they're not on mirror.tokra.lv or associated >_> so apt-get is failing to download them D:
kb9vqf	ah, ok
kb9vqf	every night my ISP has been severing the connection
Xu_R	ah... that's probably why...
kb9vqf	so it is very probable that the files were not transferred yet
Xu_R	quite a few: http://slexy.org/view/s20dcKvDfP
kb9vqf	on the plus side the weather should be quiet for a while here, which should aid in keeping the connection up
Xu_R	that's good :D
kb9vqf	I'm not going to do anything about it (because I can't)
kb9vqf	but if you are still having problems in a day or two please let me know\
Xu_R	ok
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Xu_R	blehh... I had to install xfce4 to remove kde3 and install trinity... >_>
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Xu_R	and kdm seems to be stalling after logout... and rejecting upstart restart/stop/start/etc requests....
Xu_R	(fking upstart... it's not even maintained anymore)
Xu_R	kdm session menu shows KDE3 instead of trinity...
Xu_R	looks like kdesudo for trinity isn't right...
Xu_R	kdm's theme isn't made properly...
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: I got the nightly installed
Xu_R	:D
Xu_R	and am already having difficulties... :-\
Xu_R	kb9vqf: http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/8
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Not surprised; this is not release quality software yet!
kb9vqf	in particular I know that the default themes are not available
kb9vqf	they have not been uploaded yet
Xu_R	figured that most of this was expected :P
kb9vqf	also, DO NOT TRY TO UPGRADE A SYSTEM THAT HAS ANY *-kde3 packages INSTALLED ON IT
kb9vqf	install from a clean Maverick/Natty installation ONLY
kb9vqf	metapackages will be available to migrate from the -kde3 package suffix as the release date nears
kb9vqf	but not yet :)
Xu_R	kb9vqf: bit too late, I did the upgrade... :-\
kb9vqf	well, now I don't know where your problems are coming from :-\
Xu_R	D:
kb9vqf	could be the code, could be old -kde3 packages
kb9vqf	you will have to manually purge all -kde3 packages
Xu_R	oh, I already purged all the -kde3 packages
kb9vqf	the kdesudo thing sounds irritating
Xu_R	it is D:
kb9vqf	knetworkmanager sounds like a kde3/trinity change
kb9vqf	that is, it broke in the move from .kde3 and /etc/kde3 to .trinity and //etc/trinity
kb9vqf	why is networkmanager upstream missing VPN support???
Xu_R	it probably is... but mind you, for some reason the -trinity packages are still using my .kde3 settings
Xu_R	no, i'm saying knetworkmanager is not working with the VPN support
Xu_R	(did I mistype that? O_O)
kb9vqf	yes
Xu_R	yikes
Xu_R	lemme fix that
Xu_R	there...
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	anything else to add to the list of bad news?
Xu_R	not really, which is a good thing. i'm firing up a clean install to see if I get the same stuff
kb9vqf	also any work that you can do to track down the cause of those problems is greatly appreciated :)
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	sounds good
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Profile directory name (~/.trinity) fixes are in SVN revision 1244723.
kb9vqf	you can directly patcth the /opt/trinity/bin/startkde file if you don't want to wait for the nightly builds
Xu_R	ok
kb9vqf	let me know if it works properly please :)
Xu_R	sure
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: Xu_R: running a chroot of debian in my arch
MutantTurkey	going okay so far
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Xu_R	oh grrr.... I just realized
Xu_R	there's absolutely no polkit dialog when using trinity
Xu_R	so apps that depend on polkit
Xu_R	just... fail.
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Necrosporus	What's about trinity for Slackware 13.37?
kb9vqf	ask on the trinity-devel mailing list
kb9vqf	I don't handle Slackware
kb9vqf	but the person who does is on the list
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Necrosporus	Well, so I will probably have to compile it myself. I doubt, however, if it worth it
Necrosporus	Xfce works
Necrosporus	And I'm not sure, if KDE4 is still not as good as 3.5
Necrosporus	There was a security bugs in Konqueror, is it fixed in Trinity?
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Strangelv__	"Have the bug reports been enterede into TDE's bug tracker?
Necrosporus	I do not know, I just read, there was a vulnerability of SSL certificate checking if it contain null symbols
Necrosporus	It was discovered after release of 3.5.10, if I remember it correctly
TokRa	IMHO, KDE4 is good enough except Plasma and its sick addiction to mysql based akonadi
* TokRa uses Gnome2 as DE, KDE3.Kmail and KDE3.Kate for mails and code editing, KDE4.Konqueror as file manager
TokRa	Gnome is not customisable enough :(
kb9vqf	we have many CVE updates from after 3.5.10 in our codebase
kb9vqf	as long as it was patched on at least one major distro (such as RedHat) we likely have the patches already in place
kb9vqf	a link to the CVE or upstream bug always helps ;-)
kb9vqf	also, if xfce is powerful enough for you, stick with it
kb9vqf	Trinity is here for those who find xfce too limiting
kb9vqf	KDE4 too bloated
kb9vqf	and Gnome 3 too limited
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	that should be 'and Gnome 3 too childish'
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Necrosporus	Well, I seem to use mostly terminal, firefox and some games
Necrosporus	What' s about Gnome 2 and Unity?
Necrosporus	I have used KDE 3.5.9 for a year, because of Slackware 12.1, however, times changed, I bought a netbook, and installed ubuntu 10.04 on it
Necrosporus	So, I stick mostly with gnome2, at first I found it too limited of configuration, but adapted somehow later
TokRa	Unity is especially designed for kids and mentally challenged adults
TokRa	IMHO
TokRa	completely unusable
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Necrosporus	Does Gnome3 differ much?
Necrosporus	I have tried it from livecd, haven't found many difference
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TokRa	It does
Necrosporus	What's the main difference, beside, the side panel is visible only in menu mode?
aalecs	gnome sucks. the only thing good in gnome is gdm
Revan199	gedit? file-roller?
Revan199	brasero?
aalecs	xarchiver, mucommander, xfburn..
Revan199	gedit not a FM
Revan199	it is a text editor
aalecs	geany then
aalecs	i know what gedit is
Space_Man	gparted?
Revan199	gedit is better for text than Geany, of course
aalecs	uh, that is ok, but we also have qtparted
Revan199	it is a really good text editor
aalecs	Revan199: if you tweak geany, it has a lot of good stuff
Revan199	aalecs: I don't need an IDE then I edit a plain text
aalecs	Revan199: leafpad then.
Revan199	and I don't need to not use gedit
Revan199	aalecs: gedit better %)
Space_Man	sadly qtparted is not available for kubuntu 9.10
aalecs	Space_Man: pack it then. build your own deb
aalecs	Revan199: mousepad then :D
Revan199	aalecs: ?
Space_Man	hopefully in the next day or two I will be updating to something a bit newer
aalecs	sincerily, the best de are xfce and kde
aalecs	gnome is a sucko..
aalecs	Revan199: mousepad is the text editor in xfce
Revan199	aalecs: but that don't mean that every program in GNOME sucks?
aalecs	nope, not all programs. but as a de gnome sucks :D and i just hate the fact that all the dumbasses started using linux, and distros like fedora...
aalecs	where has lfs gone
aalecs	debian netinstall.. slack.. where
Revan199	my debootstrap'd ubuntu don't have DE
aalecs	cool. why did u choose ubuntu and not debian ?
Revan199	aalecs: I'm switched FROM debian to ubuntu :-D
aalecs	ok, but why ?
Revan199	PPA?
aalecs	i'm on altlinux here
aalecs	but also use debian and centos
Revan199	ALTLinux? why not Agilia?
Revan199	AgiliaLinux is a nice distro =)
Revan199	but I don't think that ALT is nice too
aalecs	well, i'm on alt since 2004
aalecs	better said, i`m on alt since it was a mdk fork
Revan199	well, my first distro is... Debian
aalecs	my first was rh 6.0
Revan199	heh
aalecs	and after that slack, mdk and a lot others
aalecs	but mainly alt now
aalecs	and debian/others as virtual stuff, vbox, xen, openvz
Revan199	when I tried ALT I thought that it is a big pack of crap
aalecs	why ?
Revan199	aalecs: whell... I don't remember why (my memory... %))
aalecs	well, i don't think it's crap
aalecs	:)
Revan199	=)
Revan199	I remember that updating from 4 to 5 removed all files
aalecs	ure joking :))
Revan199	xarchiver not better than file-roller %)
Revan199	aalecs: no
Revan199	I don't
aalecs	file-roller is good. xarchiver is ok.
aalecs	peazip works too.
Revan199	peazip just works, but it doesn't work good
TokRa	Linus Torvalds to fork Gnome2: https://plus.google.com/106327083461132854143/posts/SbnL3KaVRtM
Revan199	TokRa: he is funny yea
TokRa	Timothy has forked KDE3, so why Linus couldn't do the same thing with Gnome2? :D
Revan199	TokRa: he don't know how to use google but wrote a post in plus.google.com
* TokRa doesn't use social networks at all
Revan199	because if he can use google he can googled http://matsusoft.com.ar/redmine/projects/mate
aalecs	eh. gnome sucks. and qmail sucks too.
Revan199	aalecs: who is qmail?
aalecs	google it
Revan199	%)
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Necrosporus	Gedit is not good
Necrosporus	kwrite is much better
TokRa	kate is godlike anyway
TokRa	^_^
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kb9vqf	equipment swap in progress...service should be restored by 3:30PM CDT
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: Just realized - there's no native polkit dialog for trinity...
Xu_R	so if I launched an application that needed polkit, it would fail because of no native dialog D:
kb9vqf	polkit?
Xu_R	polkit = PolicyKit
Xu_R	(example - Ubuntu Software Center)
kb9vqf	hmmm...for now I would just install some other policykit dialog
kb9vqf	e.g. the gnome one
kb9vqf	since Trinity doesn't use policykit at all
Xu_R	I have the GNOME one, however polkit refuses to invoke it on Trinity
Xu_R	I put XFCE on the same VM to see - polkit works there, so I'm not sure why polkit is refusing
kb9vqf	do you get any console messages?
* kb9vqf notes that the Qt3 version of a policykit dialog is here https://gitorious.org/policykit-kde
kb9vqf	Qt4 rather
Xu_R	hmm
Xu_R	console messages:
Xu_R	damnit, i didn't install vbox additions
Xu_R	going to have to type it up
Xu_R	softwarecenter.backend - WARNING - _on_trans_error: org.freedesktop.PolicyKit.Error.Failed: ('system-bus-name', {'name':  ':1.32'}): org.debian.apt.install-or-remove-packages
* kb9vqf is guessing that the daemon that monitors DBUS doesn't start automaticallly under Trinity
kb9vqf	that is a stupid design IMHO
Xu_R	polkit is stupid because not everyone uses it >_> so in the end, it's  another flaw
kb9vqf	let's see...we'll just have YET ANOTHER BACKGROUND PROCESS running 24/7 in case someone wants to...launch with administrative privileges???
kb9vqf	:-P
Xu_R	XD
Xu_R	ughhh
Xu_R	update-manager
Xu_R	it now uses polkit
Xu_R	and guess what? it just fails silently (not even console messages)
kb9vqf	see if you can find the process under XFCE
* kb9vqf needs to restart something; be back in a few minutes
Xu_R	ok
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: oh, good lord. there's policykit-1-gnome and polkit-kde-1 that handle the dialogs
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kb9vqf	ok, I'm back
Xu_R	kb9vqf: oh, good lord. there's policykit-1-gnome and polkit-kde-1 that handle the dialogs... According to the description: 'PolicyKit-gnome provies a D-Bus session bus service that is used to bring up authentication dialogs used for obtaining privileges.'
kb9vqf	all services should be up
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	isn't it stupid?
Xu_R	sigh.
kb9vqf	what in the world was wrong with sudo?
Xu_R	nothing, which makes this even more crazy
kb9vqf	Ubuntu only?
Xu_R	because sudo can do the same exact thing with fine-grained privileges
ar	kb9vqf: nothing, except it's not flexible
Xu_R	uhh... probably not just Ubuntu
kb9vqf	so polkit is actually better?
Xu_R	depends how you look at it
* kb9vqf doesn't like things running in the background
Xu_R	I see polkit and sudo the same in the end, just polkit is fancier -_-"
ar	kb9vqf: you either give a user "user ALL=(ALL) ALL" or end up with dozens of sudoers rules
kb9vqf	right...
kb9vqf	does polkit have a configuration GUI?
Xu_R	debian, fedora, and probably some other distributions will run into these polkit problems, AFAIK because they use tools with polkit now
Xu_R	uhhh... polkit gui? used to be, I dunno now
ar	and afair the point of polkit was that only a part of an app could get elevated privileges, which isn't the case with sudo
Xu_R	ar: makes me wonder what happened with gksu-polkit development
kb9vqf	part of an app?
kb9vqf	now that seems just ridiculous to me
Xu_R	kb9vqf: it's like running synaptic not as root
kb9vqf	now we have who knows how many dangling security holes resulting from slicing off part of an app
Xu_R	but then when you hit apply it asks for root permissions to do just that
kb9vqf	so it is more of a temporal elevation?
Xu_R	yes
kb9vqf	that is the entire app gets root access for a small amount of time
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	that makes more sense
kb9vqf	personally I say use some other GUI frontend to polkit
kb9vqf	there is no need to have the Trinity widget styles
kb9vqf	for a stupid password box :)
Xu_R	xD except that stupid password box won't launch under trinity
Xu_R	>_>
kb9vqf	of course
kb9vqf	the question is why
kb9vqf	and whose problem is it?
kb9vqf	ours?
kb9vqf	or is polkit detecting KDE3 and not launching?
Xu_R	I think polkit is detecting KDE3 and not launching...
kb9vqf	then that's not our problem
kb9vqf	:-P
kb9vqf	next question: can it be fooled into thinking it is running under Gnome/XFCE/etc
Xu_R	I don't know...
kb9vqf	feel like figuring that out for me? :)
* Xu_R goes to google
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	the odd thing is that it worked under Maverick
kb9vqf	I got the ugly Gnome popup when I lauched Synaptic
Xu_R	Synaptic doesn't use polkit
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Dexter_F	heya
Xu_R	hey, look what I found! /usr/libexec/polkit-gnome-authentication-agent-1
Dexter_F	I need kaffeine-kde3 only on one box that does not have/need trinity and runs debian wheezy - I guess there are no precompiled packages for that?
Xu_R	for wheezy? not right now D:
Xu_R	kb9vqf: the auth agent for gnome isn't running under trinity
kb9vqf	and if you manually start it do things work?
Xu_R	trying to find the binary to start it
Xu_R	ubuntu moved things around
Xu_R	hmm
Xu_R	ok, so it's only set to start in gnome...
Xu_R	'/ETC/XDG/AUTOSTART/POLKIT-GNOME-AUTHENTICATION-AGENT-1.DESKTOP'
Xu_R	(sorry for the capitals)
Xu_R	ok
Xu_R	lemme test this out...
Xu_R	it works
Xu_R	so, yea...
Xu_R	you need another background process to display the dialogs >_>
Xu_R	the binary controlling this: '/usr/lib/policykit-1-gnome/polkit-gnome-authentication-agent-1
Xu_R	;
Xu_R	*'
kb9vqf	well, that is definitely a problem
kb9vqf	I hate that design
kb9vqf	but I guess I have to live with it for now
kb9vqf	so we'll need a /ETC/XDG/AUTOSTART/POLKIT-TRINITY-AUTHENTICATION-AGENT-1.DESKTOP with nearly identical contents that depends on the package including /ETC/XDG/AUTOSTART/POLKIT-GNOME-AUTHENTICATION-AGENT-1.DESKTOP
kb9vqf	:-P
Xu_R	yea
Xu_R	and they need to have OnlyShowIn=TDE; or something...
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	thats the "nearly identical contents" mentioned above ;-)
Xu_R	;P
kb9vqf	<rant>Linux is becoming more like the bad part of Windows merged with the bad UI of UNIX and the childish UI of Mac all rolled into one</rant>
Xu_R	but is the 'TDE' part recognizable?
Xu_R	kb9vqf: +1
kb9vqf	hmmm...it might be recognizable, not sure
kb9vqf	can you try it?
kb9vqf	if it doesn't launch then try OnlyShowIn=KDE
Xu_R	ok
Xu_R	let's seee...
Xu_R	nope, TDE doesn't work
Xu_R	o_O
Xu_R	KDE doesn't work either...
Xu_R	kb9vqf: is Trinity reading /etc/xdg/autostart?
kb9vqf	it *should*
kb9vqf	try it without the OnlyShowIn just for fun
kb9vqf	barring that, you could try creating an entry in /opt/trinity/etc/xdg/autostart/
Xu_R	without the OnlyShowIn it works
Xu_R	o_o"
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	OnlyShowIn=KDE3?
kb9vqf	if that works then something old snuck through
Xu_R	dum dum dum.
Xu_R	no, KDE3 doesn't work
Xu_R	o_o"
kb9vqf	huh
* kb9vqf goes to look at kdebase
Xu_R	something slipped through... >_>"
kb9vqf	Well it is supposed to be OnlyShowIn=KDE;
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Is there a NotShowIn field?
Xu_R	no
Xu_R	hmm... interesting, because adept notifier is also in /etc/xdg/autostart and it has OnlyShowIn=KDE;
Xu_R	I'm going to try again with KDE
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	something must be confusing it
Xu_R	hey, this time it works....
Xu_R	>_>"
Xu_R	brb, dinner...
kb9vqf	Xu_R: X-TDE-Autostart* support is now in SVN revision 1245190.
kb9vqf	X-TDE-Autostart* is preferred, but it will fall back to X-KDE-Autostart* if needed
Xu_R	ok
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: KDM session name moved from KDE3 to TDE in SVN revision 1245194.
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: :D
Xu_R	kb9vqf: Question: Is it possible for the kickoff menu icon to just be a Trinity logo icon?
Xu_R	(and we have to get rid of that embedded image stuff, that's uglyyy)
kb9vqf	I'm not going to fight with it personally as I never use Kickoff
kb9vqf	if you want to try to fix it send me a patch :)
Xu_R	eek - ok, I'll see what I cando
kb9vqf	ok
Xu_R	kb9vqf: on the About Trinity dialog, the name is still "About KDE"
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: That was fixed about an hour ago
Xu_R	oh, ok :P
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: can I close bug 459? because you've moved everything to .trinity already
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=459 blocker, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Detecting $KDEHOME to avoid conflicts with KDE3 and KDE4
kb9vqf	It *should* be fixed
kb9vqf	but I would verify it before closing that bug!!
Xu_R	ok
MutantTurkey	awesome!
MutantTurkey	did you se the libpython2.6 bug?
Xu_R	the libpython2.6 bug I had also before - but I would call that bad ubuntu packaging
Xu_R	and not trinity's problem...
Xu_R	kb9vqf: patched startkde...
Xu_R	and it works!
Xu_R	my .kde3 moved to .trinity
Xu_R	and I still have all my settings
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: I can confirm.
Xu_R	and looks like the rest of the bug has already been done
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kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	go ahead and close it then
Xu_R	closed already :P
Xu_R	hm, breaking news just popped up..
Xu_R	"Rating agency Standard & Poor's says it has downgraded the U.S. credit rating to AA+ from its top rank of AAA. "
Xu_R	oh, who didn't see that coming.. .>_>
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	and not good :-P
Xu_R	nope :P
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KingSphinx	So the channel does exist... :P
Xu_R	...
KingSphinx	Sorry, actually just thought I'd drop by this channel to give a few words of praise, for lack of a better term, to this project for having the guts to maintain the former incarnation of KDE. Bravo!
KingSphinx	To be honest, I never used KDE until... 4.2, I think? I have no hard feelings against the Plasma Desktop, but 3.x just feels... right, you know? Anyhoo, if I'm bothering anyone, sorry...
kb9vqf	no, not bothering us at all :)
kb9vqf	we like it when users stop by to tell us they like what we are doing
kb9vqf	and in your case especially we can point to someone who had no predjudice against KDE4 (since KDE4 was your first experience with KDE), which means that the KDE3 style is still superior for some percentage of new Linux users :)
kb9vqf	thanks for going out of your way to let us know you like the project!
KingSphinx	I really don't understand why they felt the need to drop Kicker entirely, it was ported to Qt4 and everything, but droppped in alpha IIRC. It would've been nice for them to have left it as an optional component or something. :/
KingSphinx	However, Trinity's indirectly responsible for my migration to Fedora (broke Compiz and my display driver with it)
kb9vqf	I don't think it was fully ported
kb9vqf	Qt4 was too limited to handle the "old" Kicker internals
KingSphinx	It was fine until I tried to experiment with Compiz though, so I harbor no ill will towards it.
kb9vqf	use fusion-icon
kb9vqf	and Ubuntu itself is....ehmm...unstable when it comes to Compiz
kb9vqf	regardless of the DE you use
kb9vqf	the only time I have been able to keep Compiz on is with an older Intel card on an IBM laptop
KingSphinx	Seems Intel hardware is the most reliable when it comes to just about anything Linux-related...
* KingSphinx has a Broadcom wireless chip that Ubuntu doesn't support out-of-box
KingSphinx	That's actually not a good thing for me, since I kind of have to jump through hoops to get it running in *buntu, and sadly, if I wanted to install Trinity again (made a CD so I can revisit it), I don't think I could get my wireless working even with the instructions provided by the Ubuntu wiki because I'm not sure if Trinity provides the tools required. Bleh, that was a mouthful.
KingSphinx	Specifically, these instructions: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Driver/bcm43xx
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ar	KingSphinx: the only reliable thing about intel, where drivers do actually matter, are network cards
ar	KingSphinx: i've seen enough rendering issues/artifacts on my laptop, which has intel graphics
ar	Xu_R: "AA+"? i've heard something about "D"
* kb9vqf thinks ar was looking trough a time vortex into a few years from now
ar	no, not really: http://www.goldmadesimple.com/gold-made-simple-cuts-usa-rating-from-aaa-to-d
ar	still, imo all of those "rating agencies" are just a scam
ar	(and no, i don't live in the usa)
KingSphinx	I really think the rating decrease seems kinda overdue... I mean, really? A nation that's untold trillions in debt and it has perfect credit?
* kb9vqf agrees with KingSphinx
KingSphinx	oh yeah! A question I've been meaning to ask: with the planned ports to RPM-based systems, will each distro retain its own artwork/theme or will it just be the "generic" KDE 3 look?
kb9vqf	debt to GDP ratio is just too high
kb9vqf	Xu_R might know
kb9vqf	it depends on whether or not the distro maintainer(s) will pull in the original KDE3.5 theming from the distribution or not
kb9vqf	I did with Ubuntu, but then again there have been several cycles since then, so the current artwork looks nothing like the original artwork ;-)
kb9vqf	*release cycles
KingSphinx	I think Fedora still has the Qt3 port of Bluecurve in its repos, and lol, I've noticed.
KingSphinx	Hardy looked excellent, but it seems from 8.10 onward, Kubuntu just opted to use the "generic" themeing.
kb9vqf	hmmm...8.10 sounds like the point at which my releases started
kb9vqf	you must not have had the theming packages installed
kb9vqf	for reference, here's how the Ubuntu releases look now: http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net/cdimages/
KingSphinx	Interesting... Enterprise Edition seems to vaguely resemble Windows XP (possibly on purpose?)
KingSphinx	Desktop Edition seems to pretty much look like Hardy with a new wallpaper. Not a bad thing though, it looks great IMO.
KingSphinx	Just what does Enterprise have that Desktop lacks? Additional apps/drivers?
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	loads of apps
kb9vqf	more drivers
kb9vqf	and a cleaner, tighter widget style and theme
kb9vqf	more along the lines of what you expect in a corporate environment
ar	paypal :/
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Xu_R	ar: LOL
Xu_R	kb9vqf: yes, distros will pull in KDE theming from the distribution D:
Xu_R	and I dropped Fedora because they strictly forbid anything installed in /opt, which is a pain because then I have to conflict anything KDE4
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raevyn	Hello! So I havebeen playing with Trinity DVD today and realized its Ubuntu 10.10, just no GNOME desktop. Is that accurate?
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KingSphinx	What's all this about Fedora forbidding anything installed in /opt?
raevyn	hello. so i just compared my kde3 installation on ubuntu to the installation that is one the tde enterprise dvd.. and i am missing a huge number of files.
raevyn	could this have been caused by installing kde4 first?
KingSphinx	Well yeah, I'd believe the cause may actually just be that the Enterprise DVD has a lot of extra features, whereas installing via repo will just give the standard CD experience.
raevyn	ohhhhh... <sighs> is there a way to remedy that? to get the entire KDE software set via repo?
KingSphinx	Maube, but I'm not sure, I haven't had Trinity in a while. (it's not available for Fedora, nor does it seem likely in the forseeable future.)
KingSphinx	*maybe
raevyn	what if i moved the files i am missing from the virtual machine directory into the main system directory?
raevyn	okay i copied kdf over and now it does run appearing with the kde3 theming rather than kde4.. so maybe that is all i have to do?
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raevyn	hello im back. i had to restart.
raevyn	so, i confirmed with another VM that indeed the enterprise version of TDE comes with more software.
raevyn	But I have some concerns... Ubuntu was great at hardware detection and has a good software repo... so first off is the Trinity DVD incorporate thsoe ubuntu traits? And, I would like to still keep gnome or install it after installing Trinity Enterprise.. can I still do that?
raevyn	oh you know, no on is here lol. I will try back on Monday
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Xu_R	KingSphinx: uhhh... standard FHS, Fedora policy, etc?
KingSphinx	Oh well, hopefully something can be done to get it ported to Fedora. If not, guess it's migration time for me. :/
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Raevyn	hi.. so somehow i have dolphin popping up on me when i open folders. is there a way to get back to konquerer?
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Space_Man	K menu / System settings / Default applications / File associations / Inode / Directory / add Konqueror here or move it up
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KingSphinx	Well, I was surprised to see that Trinity indeed has jockey-gtk, so I can still install the necessary drivers for my wireless card even with no wired connection. :D
KingSphinx	Whoops, that didn't come out right.
KingSphinx	I was surprised to see that Trinity still has jockey-gtk, so I can still install my wireless drivers.
KingSphinx	Oh wait, that *did* all come out the first time. Sorry! ^^;
* kb9vqf notes that we support GTK applications in preference to Qt4 ones, as 1) we can overlay Trinity themes on them and 2) they are more stable and less resource hungry than Qt4 apps tend to be
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OnlyHuman	quack
OnlyHuman	!rpm
tbottu	OnlyHuman: Error: "rpm" is not a valid command.
OnlyHuman	vrpm
OnlyHuman	v rpm
OnlyHuman	quack quack
Xu_R	not cool, OnlyHuman
OnlyHuman	oh
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Xu_R	-_-""
Xu_R	I'll take the beating for him on this one.
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l0ner	Hi
elcaset__	hello howdy
l0ner	anyone here from who i could get some help with compiling (or rather non-compiling) parts of trinity?
elcaset__	I am not experienced enough to help with compiling, but I bet someone here ios.
elcaset__	oops, here is.
l0ner	kb9vqf should be able to help
l0ner	but it seems he's away
elcaset__	i tried Porteus GNU/Linux with Trinity pre-installed.  i like it, so far.
l0ner	I used the Ubuntu-based trinity distro
l0ner	but it was ubuntu, which is too blated for me
l0ner	normally I use gentoo
l0ner	which I can configure any way I want
KingSphinx	The only other version of Trinity available that I know of is Slackware, so... there's a Gentoo version?
l0ner	no, there is overlay but it sucks
KingSphinx	the kde-sunset overlay?
l0ner	so I pulled trinity code from svn and I'm trying to compile it maually
l0ner	no the kde-trinity
KingSphinx	Wouldn't know about compiling something as big as Trinity, sorry.
l0ner	it's not in the main overlay list
l0ner	kay, I'll wait
* KingSphinx has never used a Linux distro more complex than Fedora...
l0ner	well, the gentoo is not complex
l0ner	but You'll need to learn how it handles some aspects
KingSphinx	I'm perfectly aware of DIY stuff like that, I just prefer the "noobier" stuff like Ubuntu/Fedora/Debian
l0ner	I prefered it years ago
l0ner	then I noticed it was too heavy for me, and too bloated
l0ner	so I moved directly from ubuntu tu gentoo
KingSphinx	Ah
KingSphinx	Nice
l0ner	and didn't had many problems
KingSphinx	Nothing wrong with that, though I still prefer my choices. :P
l0ner	the handbook is pretty clear on how to install it
KingSphinx	USE flags seem very cool though.
l0ner	yeah, I know ;) It's the "different distro for every user" rule :P
l0ner	I even thought about doing it hardcore way, using the LFS
l0ner	but it's a little too much for me :P
KingSphinx	I might have to migrate back to Kubuntu Trinity, since it now seems unlikely that Trinity can be properly ported to Fedora (something about packages not being allowed to be installed in /opt...?)
l0ner	dunno, never used Fedora. But I had read about it in the channels history
l0ner	it seems pretty pointless blocking the /opt dir, which existence was to allow user install external thing he needed
l0ner	at least it's what i had been told years ago
KingSphinx	I know, but there's not much I can really do. But... I found my old Google Chrome install in /opt, and it was an RPM package, so maybe... hmm...
l0ner	maybe they don't allow thing installed by user,
l0ner	not by the repo system or things like that
l0ner	or maybe it was there before they introduced this "nothing in /opt" rule and there is nothing that would delete it
* l0ner thinks about getting some sleep
l0ner	well... bbl
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Space_Man	KDE Frameworks 5.0 In Development http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/08/07/2128222/KDE-Frameworks-50-In-Development
KingSphinx	It's only in development, but... this technically means Trinity's now two generations out-of-date. Dunno whether to laugh of feel depressed...
KingSphinx	*or
elcaset__	some folks over at the PCLOS irc are trying to convince me that KDE Trinity has no hope.  There is some hope, right?
Space_Man	yes there is still lots of life in Trinity
elcaset__	awesome!.  thanks Space_Man.
Space_Man	has Qt5 even been announced?
elcaset__	it's in the works, but i don't know beyond that.
Space_Man	a blogpost about qt5 http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/05/09/thoughts-about-qt-5/
elcaset__	there were qt5 discussions supposedly at that KDE gathering in Europe that occured in the last 3 months.
Space_Man	"beta quality code available towards the end of the year and final Qt 5.0 release some time during 2012."
Space_Man	Tim has written "TQt" which bridges qt3 and qt4
KingSphinx	A question about TQt: is it supposed to be a fork of the old Qt3 or is it something like a bridge for Qt4?
Space_Man	it used the best bits from both :P
KingSphinx	Oh, nvm, saw above
Space_Man	I'm 100% certain of the details
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KingSphinx	Will there eventually be bits from Qt5?
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Xu_R	KingSphinx: yes, there will. but we have to get to Qt4 first :P
Xu_R	time to download the latest nightly build for my xubuntu and see the SVN changes :D
* KingSphinx feels lost amongst all the programmers... (cannot program anything to save my life)
Xu_R	well, I only know basic C++ programming
Xu_R	that I learned last year... >_>"
KingSphinx	I barely know HTML... ^^;
Xu_R	I'm learning Java next year. Wish me luck, because Java is hell xD
Xu_R	fk, I just remember I still have to renew my Linux Foundation Membership (which I didn't know I had >_>")
Xu_R	*remembered
Xu_R	ok, that's not good. latest nightly build isn't starting up trinity at all...
Xu_R	but checking xsession-errors, it looks like everything is working...
Xu_R	oh, god, I want to punch Upstart in the face so badly right now...
* KingSphinx notes that this is why I'm not brave enough to use nightly builds
* Xu_R is the daredevil on virtual machines :P
Xu_R	KingSphinx: this is why I have XFCE as another desktop :P
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: Nightly builds were suspended a few days ago due to old packages not being purge from the archive
kb9vqf	The problem has been resolved and builds are restarting
* kb9vqf whispers ethereal wisps of a new feature, long absent from Linux http://websvn.kde.org/?view=revision&revision=1245566
kb9vqf	For those who think Trinity has no future, bear in mind that we maintain Qt3 as upstream
kb9vqf	Since Qt3 was absorbed, you could think of Trinity as a pure Xlib desktop ;-)
kb9vqf	also, since TQt porting is complete, it would be theoretically possible to move Qt3 to the new TQ* namespace, thus eliminating any potential conflicts with Qt4
kb9vqf	this could be done independently of the Trinity desktop project
kb9vqf	Qt4 is a shifting target (still!) and has significant performance issues
kb9vqf	not all the problems with KDE4 are due to the KDE4 developers....
KingSphinx	I really don't get why there's people that say "Trinity has no future"; last I checked, as long as a project has demand and developers still active, it has a future. </opinion>
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kde3ftw	anyone have any experience with servicemenus?  I'm trying to make a right click open with console here for folders but when I use it, it always sends me to the ~ directory not the directory i right clicked on.  My servicemenu .desktop file is here: http://pastebin.com/Z75CeD2f
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kb9vqf	kde3ftw: You will need to pass the --workdir flag to Konsole, along with  (so 'konsole --workdir ')
kb9vqf	kde3ftw: You will need to pass the --workdir flag to Konsole, along with  (so 'konsole --workdir %U')
kb9vqf	grr
kb9vqf	IRC keeps eating the % signs
kb9vqf	let's try that one more time
kb9vqf	kde3ftw: You will need to pass the --workdir flag to Konsole, along with %U (so 'konsole --workdir %U')
kb9vqf	there we go
kde3ftw	kb9vqf -- Thanks ill give it a try -- and btw thanks for all the development on kde3 :)
kb9vqf	np
kde3ftw	kb9vqf ---> the Exec='konsole --workdir %U" didnt work BUT Exec=konsole --workdir '%U' does! Thanks for pointing me in the right direction :)
kb9vqf	glad to hear it
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	yes, I forgot the quotes
kb9vqf	it's been a while since I worked on service menus :)
kde3ftw	whoops posted um wrong too.. did the " 's and ''s
kde3ftw	hehhe
kde3ftw	yeah.. having access to the console from anywhere is just so helpful though :)
kde3ftw	kb9vqf -- thanks again and gnite!
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KingSphinx	About the whole "Trinity-decoupling-from-Ubuntu" thing: the Kubuntu wiki says that Trinity's moved to a yearly schedule. Does this mean that the next release will likely be released as 11.10 or is this more of a "when it's done" sort of thing?
kb9vqf	when it's done
kb9vqf	probably on a yearly schedule
kb9vqf	6mos is too short
KingSphinx	I imagine so, especially given the relative size of the project compared to, say, current KDE
KingSphinx	With the instructions given on the site, however, it is possible to stay current?
KingSphinx	Also, completely unrelated, but it really is impressive how lightweight 3.x is... just saw a video of someone running 3.5.10 very well on a Pentium 4 and only 1 GB of RAM :)
kb9vqf	we are building Natty packages now
kb9vqf	there won't be this long hiatus in the future
kb9vqf	our build system broke when Natty was released
kb9vqf	due to Autotools changes
kb9vqf	it took quite some time to get those problems fixed
kb9vqf	IMHO the desktop *should* be that light :)
kb9vqf	believe it or not, on powerful, modern hardware, Trinity still feels a bit sluggish at times when used at very high screen resolutions
KingSphinx	Just for curiosity's sake (sorry, I love asking questions), it'll pretty much by Natty, but still 3.5.12?
KingSphinx	1280x1024's not that high, is it?
kb9vqf	no
kb9vqf	try 1080 ;-)
kb9vqf	try 3840x1080 ;-)
kb9vqf	what do you mean "by natty"?
KingSphinx	Wow
* kb9vqf thinks KDE4 would be especially unusable at that resolution
KingSphinx	lol, possibly
KingSphinx	You'd need one heck of a computer to run it at a decent speed, that's for sure
* KingSphinx still ran KDE 4.2 on a 2.4 GHz Pentium 4 and 512 MB of RAM back when 9.04 was around
KingSphinx	I still have that old clunker of a computer, just upgraded to 1 GB RAM and GeForce 4 graphics
elcaset__	KDE 4.2 is a lot faster than KDE 4.5 in my usage.
KingSphinx	Somehow, KDE 4 ran just as badly after the upgrades.
KingSphinx	You know a desktop is bloated when Trinity can beat it running off the CD
KingSphinx	To be fair, 4 runs pretty well on my current rig, but Trinity's still ending up on it one way or another. Even if I have to distro-hop back to Kubuntu to do it.
* KingSphinx is wondering how exactly one goes about installing a new distro over an old one while keeping your /home partition
kb9vqf	a cell phone OS may run very well on a desktop computer, but then why have the desktop computer at all?  Just buy another cell phone... :-P
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* l0ner is back
l0ner	Notice: the trinitydesktop.org/wiki main page has been spammed and now it's displaying some text about insurances...
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Space_Man	the wiki spam has been removed
l0ner	good thing
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l0ner	I'm having trouble compiling the kdelibs. Error I get: http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/454660/
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MutantTurkey	I had this idea.
MutantTurkey	basically I am sick of programs stealing CPU uselessly, and i was thinking (if only i could pause them!) but then i thought, wait this is linux. SIGTSTP works perfectly.
MutantTurkey	Now I am hacking onto dwm to automatically SIGTSTP anytime a window goes out of focus.
MutantTurkey	then SIGTCONT when it is refocused
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*** Xu_R is now known as Xu_R|ZNC
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MutantTurkey	o/ Xu_R
Xu_R	hey MutantTurkey
MutantTurkey	whats up man
Xu_R	gotta finish summer hw and get stuff
MutantTurkey	oh nice
ar	MutantTurkey: you know you're basically reimplementing ios multitasking?
MutantTurkey	title
MutantTurkey	ar: what!
MutantTurkey	ar: no idea actually, what is ios?
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: iOS = iPhone OS
MutantTurkey	oh
MutantTurkey	so yes basically.
MutantTurkey	except on the desktop
ar	yes
ar	and it might be a good battery saver
MutantTurkey	because I don't need ffx taking 25% cpu to draw gifs and flash apps in the background
MutantTurkey	indeed
MutantTurkey	I need a system of orginizing and tagging programs.
MutantTurkey	so that all firefox's pause automatically, but never do it to a terminal etc.
MutantTurkey	and manual for all of it
l0ner	MutantTurkey: share it when You finish it
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kb9vqf	Space_Man: Where was the wiki spam, and do you know how it got there?
kb9vqf	It sounds like something wasn't locked down correctly
Space_Man	2 people made accounts, #1 added a new page and the #2 added a new page and edited the start page
Space_Man	http://trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Main/WebStatistics
Space_Man	the pages were ShortTermLoans and Trash.MainJazelAseAs
Space_Man	the spammers were RaynnPada and MainJazelAseAs
Space_Man	earlier I made a foswiki account and deleted the pages and users
MutantTurkey
l0ner	kb9vqf: I have some problems compiling the kdelibs. Don't know if you've seen my msg earlier
kb9vqf	no I didn't
kb9vqf	what is your problem?
l0ner	http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/454660/
l0ner	this is what i get
kb9vqf	compile and install the latest Qt3 sources from our GIT repository
kb9vqf	our Qt3 is extended vs. the old Qt3 in most distributions' package systems
l0ner	did, but I will try to recompile
kb9vqf	yes, the change is recent
kb9vqf	within the past few days
l0ner	ok, is there any way to checkout anonymously from your git?
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTurkey	same way as regularly
MutantTurkey	just don't use the user@ bit
l0ner	ok, thx
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: the development page is handy
kb9vqf	glad to hear it :)
kb9vqf	(of course you were the one that worked on it so...)
MutantTurkey	it should encourage more developers anyhow
kb9vqf	Space_Man: The main Web was not locked down
kb9vqf	It is now
kb9vqf	no more spam I hope :)
l0ner	linux amuses me...
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Raevyn	Hello. Is there any instructions to install TDE on ubuntu 11?
Raevyn	oh.. well thats odd. I uninstalled kde 4 and that took out much of tde.. though the software center seems to be running something to repair broken deps
Space_Man	Raevyn: did you fix your Dolphin / Konqueror problem?
Raevyn	oh yes.. i uninstalled dolphin
Space_Man	good
Raevyn	it owuld be nice to have it as an option but I couldnt find anyplace to go to make konqeror my default
Space_Man	K menu / System settings / Default applications / File associations / Inode / Directory / add Konqueror here or move it up
Raevyn	thank you! I will try it again :)
Space_Man	did you use ubuntu or kubuntu 11.04?
Raevyn	ubuntu 10.10 upgraded to 11.04.
Space_Man	later I'm going to install ubuntu 11.04 trinity but I don't know how to
Space_Man	I guess install ubuntu 11.04 then add the trinity repo's
Raevyn	I was going to let the software center fix itself then try installing TDE again
Raevyn	hm.. it still fails to install. is there maybe a way to make it install if it was installed previously and was damaged?
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: I think the polkit problem is fixed with the new package tde-ubuntu-integration
kb9vqf	can you try it?
*** kb9vqf changes topic to "Trinity Desktop Environment 3.5.12 is out! Get it at http://www.trinitydesktop.org Also, consider joining the Trinity mailing lists [http://bit.ly/hZ83mF]. IRC will be most active/helpful during business hours in the USA. BOTW #394 [http://bit.ly/i3tpT5] CMake status [http://bit.ly/fvh4f2] Natty [http://bit.ly/kzH5mO] Support the Project! [http://bit.ly/pmkMVB]"
l0ner	can I ask someting?
l0ner	what exactly aRts is?
kb9vqf	it's a sound system proxy
kb9vqf	a sort of abstraction layer that sits between Trinity apps and OSS/ALSA/PulseAudio/etc
l0ner	ok, thx
l0ner	another question: do You plan on supporting PulseAudio, with it's fetures, in TDE?
l0ner	since PulseAudio seems like nice thing when looked at description on their main page
l0ner	yet, I never seen it actually work like it should
Xu_R	kb9vqf: back from school supply shopping XD yess, will boot up and test asap
kb9vqf	l0ner: Which features?
kb9vqf	Pulse works fine in Trinity right now
l0ner	kb9vqf: like separate volume control for each app
l0ner	or it is already included
kb9vqf	for each app? no
kb9vqf	didn't even know that was available :-/
l0ner	"Generic hardware abstraction, giving the possibility of doing things like individual volumes per application."
l0ner	taken from pulse website
l0ner	it would be really nice to have this, since I was using this a lot in win7
l0ner	and I always missed this in linux
kb9vqf	I don't even know if any GUIs/DEs currently allow you to do that
kb9vqf	Never heard of it personally
kb9vqf	Just because a backedn supports something doesn't mean there are any frontends yet--just look at XRandR 1.2
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	*backend
Xu_R	kb9vqf: the package hasn't appeared on mirrors yet, so you'll have to wait a day D:
kb9vqf	That being said...you should file a feature request bug report
kb9vqf	Xu_R: OK
kb9vqf	that makes sense
Xu_R	kb9vqf: how about kdesudo? is it fixed? :o
l0ner	kb9vqf: will thought about it ;)
kb9vqf	l0ner: Describe at least one way to access the proposed feature (e.g. via a configuration dialog in kmix, right-clicking on a running application titlebar/taskbar entry, etc.)
kb9vqf	in the bug report that is
kb9vqf	Xu_R: you can pull it directly from https://quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/~trinity/+archive/trinity-nightly-builds/+files/tde-ubuntu-integration_0.1-0_all.deb
Xu_R	ok
l0ner	kb9vqf: ok, I will do it later, when I thought about it ;)
kb9vqf	sure :)
kb9vqf	we can't know what our users want unless they tell us :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: what is the meta package for trinity under debian?
MutantTurkey	as in, how can I install all trinity packages with a single command
Xu_R	kb9vqf: testing
Xu_R	and I confirmed a TDE entry now in KDM :D
Xu_R	kb9vqf: and it works :D
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: kde-trinity
MutantTurkey	thanks
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Without your previous hack in place?
Xu_R	yea
kb9vqf	great!
MutantTurkey	also what l0ner said is a great idea
Xu_R	I removed the previous hack before installing the package
kb9vqf	Xu_R: I set ksmserver to recommend tde-ubuntu-integration
Xu_R	ok
kb9vqf	so it should get sucked in when someone installs via the metapackage
Xu_R	ok
kb9vqf	and if it doesn't, a search in synaptic for tde and policykit should turn it up ;-)
Xu_R	:)
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: D: kdesu still doesn't work...
kb9vqf	I expect that
kb9vqf	it hasn't been uploaded yet
Xu_R	ah, ok.
kb9vqf	as I mentioned before the nightly builds stalled due to obsolete packages not being automatically purged
Xu_R	ah, right.
kb9vqf	it's amazing how fast you can chew through disk space that way :rolleyes:
kb9vqf	I'm working on a few glitches, then I'll restart the builds
Xu_R	oh, yea. I know. /me looks at his server here... >_>
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MutantTurkey	installing trinity on my vps xD
Xu_R	kb9vqf: ok, this is an interesting development
Xu_R	kb9vqf: I got tired of kdesudo, so I removed kdesudo-trinity...
Xu_R	and then all of a sudden it's working... without the package?
Xu_R	ok, lemme rephrase that - kdesudo isn't working, but kdesu *is* and is accepting sudo requests...
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	kdesu is the fallback
* Xu_R is glad now that he killed off the kdesudo-trinity package then because it's not working...
MutantTurkey	wubwubwub
MutantTurkey	I did apt-get install kde-trinity and everything is named like kde4...
MutantTurkey	even while it works like trinity
MutantTurkey	actually I have no idea whats going on
l0ner	damn
l0ner	I recompiled qt, recompiled tqt, and arts
l0ner	and I still can't compile kdelibs
l0ner	I the same error
l0ner	*I got
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MutantTurkey	weird
MutantTurkey	kicker is eating my cpu at 100%
MutantTurkey	is that normal for first boot?
MutantTurkey	caching the entries or something?
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: ^
MutantTurkey	weird
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MutantTurkey	what i think happened was that kde4 started alongside trinity, and locked everything up.
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KingSphinx	I got Trinity installed! :D
Xu_R	:D
KingSphinx	And managed to keep my /home as well, though getting wireless working with no wired connection was a PITA
Xu_R	always is.
KingSphinx	Especially with Broadcom cards...
MutantTurkey	wireless is a totaly pain if you don't memorize how to do it.
MutantTurkey	at this point I have it all memorized.
MutantTurkey	dhcpcd is your friend!!
l0ner	strange, i had no problem with my broadcom card
MutantTurkey	l0ner: about half the people love it, the other half hate it.
l0ner	yeah, i know
l0ner	problem is, 99% of users are using generic kernel
KingSphinx	Fedora didn't have any trouble detecting/using it out-of-box... and *only* Fedora can, I don't know why.
l0ner	and need to use strange things
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: haven't tried arch yet then :p
Xu_R	or suse :P
MutantTurkey	doesn't everyone still mostly self compile kernels?
l0ner	maybe because Fedora has precompiled modules for broadcom and ships firmware
KingSphinx	Tried SuSE, that doesn't either
l0ner	depends
Xu_R	strange - I've always gotten SuSE to work for me... /me has strange luck with it
l0ner	about what kind of user we are talking? unless you are advanced, you'll use generic kernel
l0ner	even on gentoo, where compiling your own kernel is a part of installation, there are some people who prefer the genkernel
MutantTurkey	I suqqsaI suppose
MutantTurkey	I always have self compiled, out of habit I guess
MutantTurkey	plus my kernel is lean and mean
l0ner	I have self compiled because i like my kernel minimal and moduleless
l0ner	i keep only minimal set of modules, everything else is included in kernel
MutantTurkey	indeed
MutantTurkey	modules are annoying as heck
l0ner	and they slow down bootup
MutantTurkey	my hardware is always the same, therefore dynamic loaded modules is ineffiecient
l0ner	same for me, sice I'm running linux on my laptop
MutantTurkey	exactly
kb9vqf	l0ner: Then you must have two versions of Qt3 installed
kb9vqf	ours and your distro's stock version
kb9vqf	try to locate qstyle
kb9vqf	try to 'locate qstyle.h' and see if you have it in multiple header directories
l0ner	the problem is: my distro don't ship qt3 anymore
KingSphinx	Your distro of choice?
l0ner	they stopped something like 2 years ago, when decided to drop kde3.5
l0ner	gentoo
KingSphinx	kde-sunset overlay?
* Xu_R wonders where samelian went
* Xu_R notes that samelian was working on gentoo/kde-sunset IIRC
l0ner	i used it, but it sucked, too many bugs, so i purged my system from it
l0ner	right now i should have only qt3 from your git
* KingSphinx wonders if TDE will get ported to Gentoo...
l0ner	i was thinking about it
KingSphinx	Also, just my opinion, but while TDE's version of Konqueror makes a great file manager, it's kinda dated as a web browser.
l0ner	KingSphinx: never liked konqueror as web browser
l0ner	i prefer have them separated
KingSphinx	Current version of Konqueror's much-improved, I can say this from experience.
l0ner	but it's because of my philosophy: one app for one thing
l0ner	KingSphinx: you say? maybe i'll try to give it a shot
MutantTurkey	l0ner: i follow that mostly as well.
KingSphinx	Quick question: would simply installing ubuntu-restricted-extras do the trick for MP3 codecs and Flash/whatever?
KingSphinx	Or does Trinity have its own way of installing proprietary codecs?
Xu_R	KingSphinx: ubuntu-restricted-extras is all you need
MutantTurkey	guys I am running into a big problem
MutantTurkey	first of all kde4 is running alongside trinity, no idea why.
MutantTurkey	second of all, I have no idea how it got installed  D:
KingSphinx	That sounds odd, yet strangely cool.
Xu_R	sounds like recommends got pulled in
l0ner	ok, I think i found where my problem is
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: yeah..
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: try removing any bits of kde4 you have
Xu_R	(just remove qt4, it'll pull down the rest of kde4)
MutantTurkey	apt-get remove?
Xu_R	yea
MutantTurkey	it says unable to locate qt4
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: apt-cache search qt4 | less
Xu_R	and locate the qt4 libarary
Xu_R	*library
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MutantTurkey	anot even there.
MutantTurkey	apt is so counter intuitive
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: That happens because Plasma is set to autolaunch at all times
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: what should I do?
kb9vqf	Really stupid design decision IMHO
kb9vqf	which version of Ubuntu are you on?
MutantTurkey	debian
kb9vqf	oh
kb9vqf	look for the plasma.desktop autostart file
kb9vqf	and for now move it somewhere else
MutantTurkey	where whould that be?
kb9vqf	that will kill KDE4 though
kb9vqf	try in /etc/xdg/autostart or similar
kb9vqf	I don't recall OTOH
MutantTurkey	not there.
* Xu_R is pretty sure MutantTurkey doesn't want kde4 anyway XP
MutantTurkey	I don't even have kde4 installed afaik
kb9vqf	well then move /usr/bin/plasma to /usr/bin/plasma.bkp ;-)
kb9vqf	that will completely kill KDE4 :)
Xu_R	or remove libqtcore4
Xu_R	(and kill everything >:D)
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	goot call
kb9vqf	the /usr/bin/plasma hack will at least let you use KDE4 apps if neede
kb9vqf	*needed
MutantTurkey	I don't even use kde4....
MutantTurkey	I don't even know how it got here!
Xu_R	use aptitude next time ;P
kb9vqf	probably through some weird apt recommends chain
MutantTurkey	darn
MutantTurkey	frankly I don't understand the whole dkpksystem
MutantTurkey	and there is terrible lag all of a sudden :[
l0ner	thats why i choose gentoo
l0ner	i control what i get in my system
l0ner	and i can configure some dependencies through USE flags
kb9vqf	to each his own
Xu_R	hehe.
kb9vqf	in my case gentoo would represent unmanageable administrative overhead :)
kb9vqf	so it was worth it to learn dpkg in all its gory detauls
kb9vqf	*details
MutantTurkey	l0ner: thats why I use arch,... because it doesn't suck with dpepends
l0ner	MutantTurkey: from what i heard from my friend who uses arch, they are pretty much the same
l0ner	gentoo and arch i mean
MutantTurkey	similar
MutantTurkey	.
MutantTurkey	but not identical
MutantTurkey	I think pacman is very sane for package managing.
l0ner	maybe some day i will try arch
MutantTurkey	alot of people make the switch from gentoo
l0ner	i imagine
l0ner	since first 4 attempts to install will fail :P
MutantTurkey	hahaha
l0ner	it was like this for me
l0ner	but back then gcc didn't accept CFLAGS="-march=native"
l0ner	one i set this wrong, second time i tried to install gentoo without multilib on 64bit system
l0ner	back then it was impossible to get working system without multilib
l0ner	third time i dont remember, but i think i had some issues with ld
l0ner	fourth finally was successful ;)
MutantTurkey	that is the greatest thing ever
MutantTurkey	-march=native is awesome.
l0ner	yeah :)
l0ner	it resolved problems with choosing right march
MutantTurkey	exactly
l0ner	on some strange processors like mine i3
MutantTurkey	atom really benifits
MutantTurkey	because its stack is different
l0ner	I can imagine ;)
* l0ner never had atom based machine though
MutantTurkey	I love it
MutantTurkey	i mean it pulls like 25W of power
MutantTurkey	at max load...
l0ner	whoah
MutantTurkey	yeah.
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kb9vqf	of course it's not much more powerful than a pocket calculator ;-)
Xu_R	XD
MutantTurkey	basically not :P
Xu_R	looks like l0ner abruptly exited...
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Xu_R	wb l0ner
l0ner	i accidentally hit ctrl+w
MutantTurkey	actually It ranks somewghere really low on the scale
Xu_R	oops lol
l0ner	which closes current tab in kvirc
l0ner	MutantTurkey: my laptop pulls something around 50W on battery
MutantTurkey	yeah
l0ner	and 25W on ac plugged on
l0ner	and i cannot understand why
kb9vqf	graphics card
kb9vqf	Linux probably does not put it to sleep as it should
l0ner	maybe
kb9vqf	which graphics card manufacturer
kb9vqf	?
l0ner	ati
MutantTurkey	also I love the atom because it has great support for linux
kb9vqf	yup
MutantTurkey	everything runs great.
kb9vqf	stinko
Xu_R	:P
MutantTurkey	only think I dislike is the lack of any processing power...
MutantTurkey	also the graphics card is weak
MutantTurkey	but the newer versions have improved considerably.
kb9vqf	that's how you get low power ;P
l0ner	I was monitoring everything with powertop and noticed that acpi is waking up the processor more on battery
l0ner	while on ac it isn't
kb9vqf	newer kernels should fix that
l0ner	i'm using 2.6.39
l0ner	right now
kb9vqf	oh
kb9vqf	then I have no idea :)
MutantTurkey	not 3.0?
MutantTurkey	I mean we have 3.0 in our regular core now...
l0ner	gentoo don't have it yet in stable
kb9vqf	oh wait
kb9vqf	http://www.tech-info.com.ar/second-major-power-regression-found-in-linux-kernel-ubuntu/
l0ner	it's masked right now
kb9vqf	2.6.39 is the problem
MutantTurkey	arch is like bleeed bleed bleeding edge.
l0ner	lol
MutantTurkey	I run arch + testing branch.
MutantTurkey	but somehow  Ihave never had a problem!
l0ner	ok, i'll update my kernel when 3.0 hits stable
l0ner	i thought it was because my laptop was samsung
MutantTurkey	samsung?
MutantTurkey	thats the problem
MutantTurkey	next time buy a better laptop xD
l0ner	and use some obscure thigns for power mngmnt
kb9vqf	odd hardware may not have full support from Linux
l0ner	i know
MutantTurkey	actually I have a few samsung products I really love
kb9vqf	also ACPI is sometimes handled by the BIOS
l0ner	but i didn't had much choice
l0ner	it was a present from my grandfather
kb9vqf	so the wakeup events may just increase due to the design of the laptop
MutantTurkey	ah
MutantTurkey	I have a problem with ext4
kb9vqf	e.g. the BIOS may be monitoring the battery more frequently, etc.
MutantTurkey	it won't let me hard drive sleep ever
MutantTurkey	it constantly writes back to me
l0ner	the only samsung devices i love are their tv
MutantTurkey	dumb journaling
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Increase the commit interval and use noatime
l0ner	anyway i'll look at my power issues after i managed to install trinity ;D
kb9vqf	noatime should do it alone in theory :)(
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I do...
MutantTurkey	and noatime is default
MutantTurkey	its the journaling writeback.
kb9vqf	no it isn't default
MutantTurkey	and even with a 1 minute commit, it's pointless
kb9vqf	I know from experience
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf:  I mean for my systems :)
kb9vqf	oh, OK :)
MutantTurkey	I need to disable commits while not doing anything,
kb9vqf	no, you need to disable writing to disk when not doing anything
MutantTurkey	nothing writes to it though
MutantTurkey	it's jus the journal every 15 seconds or so
kb9vqf	you have a nasty little app somewhere that like to write to the disk
kb9vqf	hmm
MutantTurkey	nope
MutantTurkey	I don't even run logs.
kb9vqf	that doesn't sound right
kb9vqf	the journal would only be updated if something is written to disk
MutantTurkey	I did a bit of research and It seems a few people has this problem
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	sounds weird
kb9vqf	on my systems ext4 is great
l0ner	kb9vgf: ok, so i found where my problem was, recompiled everyting and now i get this: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/454951/
kb9vqf	ooh, nice
kb9vqf	what architecture are you on?
l0ner	x86_64
MutantTurkey	https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/607560
MutantTurkey	that bug report just goes on and on
kb9vqf	l0ner: Sounds like HAVE_SYS_STAT_H is unset
kb9vqf	are you compiling with CMake?
l0ner	yes
l0ner	i followed the wiki
kb9vqf	l0ner: Do you have sys/stat.h present on your system?
l0ner	kb9vqf: dunno, will look it up now. But i think not
kb9vqf	ok, that's your problem
kb9vqf	install whatever package provides it
kb9vqf	and rerun the entire compilation of kdelibs
l0ner	kb9vqf: ok, thx ;)
l0ner	will report how it has gone
l0ner	kb9vqf: wait, i think i found it in /usr/include/sys/stat.h
MutantTurkey	anyway, I've gotta catch the train i'll see you folks later!
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* KingSphinx is wondering why GTK apps aren't blending in...
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KingSphinx	I have gtk-qt-engine installed, but they aren't blending in.
KingSphinx	Do I need to tell GTK to use Qt styles in System Settings?
kb9vqf	KingSphinx: "Use my KDE style"
kb9vqf	then logout/login
kb9vqf	also, Firefox is a royal pain
kb9vqf	it likes to use its own widgets for several items
kb9vqf	Firefox 4 is worse in this respect
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KingSphinx	There we go, that fixed it.
kb9vqf	what did?
kb9vqf	oh, nevermind
kb9vqf	sorry
kb9vqf	l0ner_away: CMake can't find your sys/stat.h file
kb9vqf	you will need to look in its logs to figure out why
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l0ner_away	kb9vqf: ok, will look it up now
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l0ner	kb9vqf: "-- Looking for sys/stat.h - found" taken from cmake output
kb9vqf	hmm
kb9vqf	l0ner: OK, in kdelibs/dcop/dcopserver.cpp, comment out the HAVE_SYS_STAT_H #ifdef and #endif
kb9vqf	then try recomliling
kb9vqf	*recompiling
l0ner	kb9vqf: as for now it's compiling
l0ner	uh... error: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/454963/
l0ner	here is the cmake optput: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/454964/
kb9vqf	hmm
kb9vqf	obviously the header autodetection system is not working on your system
kb9vqf	l0ner: Ask on the mailing list with your logs
kb9vqf	I didn't write the CMake code for that function, and from what I can tell it should be working
kb9vqf	the only thing I can suggest is to look in the generated config.h file and make sure HAVE_SYS_STAT_H is set
l0ner	ok
kb9vqf	sorry I can't be of much more help here
l0ner	kb9vqf: no prob ;0
l0ner	* :)
l0ner	anyway, it seems that HAVE_SYS_STAT_H is set, i found it in the config.h file
l0ner	i will ask on dev mailing list
l0ner	kb9vqf: it will be better to send message to the developers list, or the users one?
kb9vqf	developers
kb9vqf	it may take some time too
l0ner	ok, thx. Sending now
kb9vqf	Serghei Amelian will know the most about CMake
l0ner	uh... my message wasn't delivered
kb9vqf	l0ner: Are you a list member?
l0ner	I subscribed before sending
kb9vqf	and did you get the confirmation message?
kb9vqf	for subscription that is
l0ner	yes
kb9vqf	where did you send you message to?
l0ner	trinity-devel@lists.pearsoncomputing.net
l0ner	but it tells me that only subscribers can send messages to the list
kb9vqf	which list did you subscribe to?
kb9vqf	you need to subscribe to trinity-devel
kb9vqf	not trinity-users
l0ner	and i subscribed by sending a empty mail to trinity-devel-subscribe@lists.pearsoncomputing.net
kb9vqf	what is your Email address?
l0ner	sh4dou@gmail.com
kb9vqf	l0ner: I manually added you
kb9vqf	you weren't subscribed
l0ner	ok, thx ;)
kb9vqf	np
l0ner	strange, since I recieved the confirmation mail
kb9vqf	I know
kb9vqf	sometimes weird things happen
kb9vqf	l0ner: you did respond to the confirmation email, right
kb9vqf	?
l0ner	yep
kb9vqf	huh
kb9vqf	oh well
kb9vqf	:)
l0ner	but now i got message from gmail that my message couldn't be sent
l0ner	maybe gmail webmail issues
kb9vqf	sounds like it
kb9vqf	that's why I don't question the failures
kb9vqf	it can fail at so many points
kb9vqf	and do so intermittently
l0ner	yes
kb9vqf	all I know is that my servers work :)
kb9vqf	it's up to everyone else's Email to work properly
l0ner	and the more complex the system is, the more it can broke
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	Google does glitch from time to time
l0ner	normally i'd use some app for my mail, but right now i have clean gentoo, only with gnome, and I can't setup the evolution to work properely
* l0ner is thinking about getting some sleep
l0ner	well, I'll be back when when my actuall problem get resolved and I stumble over another ;P
l0ner	cy
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KingSphinx	Yay, Audacity seems to want to crash under Trinity...
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MutantTurkey	trying to do this all in a chroot :)
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KingSphinx	Is there any way to get Konqueror to use something besides KHTML or is that beyond the capabilities of this version of Konqueror?
kb9vqf	KHTMl is your only option
kb9vqf	I know the new one uses Webkit, but the new one is missing so many feature  that it is unusable IMHO
kb9vqf	kind of like comparing Trinity's Konqueror to the mac file browser
kb9vqf	besides, Chrome is faster ;-)
KingSphinx	Eh, kinda expected that. The current Konqueror IMO wasn't too bad as a web browser (KHTML's made a ton of steps forward), but it's sort of forgotten how to be a good file manager. Sort of the opposite of this version. :P
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	so, use two separate apps
kb9vqf	let each be best for one thing for now :)
KingSphinx	Firefox does the job... plus it can actually save stuff. Chromium at the moment doesn't seem to want to let me save anything; it'll open up Nautilus' save dialog and whatnot, but it's not really saving anything because the download bar's not showing up.
KingSphinx	Not to mention Audacity seems to crash with kgtk-qt3 providing the open/save dialogs.
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: well I can test bugs now!
MutantTurkey	using rdesktop to my vps
kb9vqf	great! :)
kb9vqf	KingSphinx: I think that crash is fixed in SVN
MutantTurkey	so I will be hacking out bugs asap
kb9vqf	KingSphinx: if you are using 3.5.12 then I would expect the crash to exist
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: OK
kb9vqf	sounds very good
MutantTurkey	just trying to strip it down to help it run faster
MutantTurkey	over the network
MutantTurkey	so disabling stuff right now
MutantTurkey	looking back, the motif theme was just patheticly awful
MutantTurkey	frankly solaris and CDE all looked like crap... I mean it wasn't even simple it was just bad.
MutantTurkey	the themes were horrid
KingSphinx	I find a charm in the eye-gouging ugliness of it all.
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: I prefer simple themes, yet i still am unhappy with every one i find
MutantTurkey	actually this one I am using now is great
KingSphinx	Isn't Trinity's default theme the same one used in Kubuntu Hardy?
KingSphinx	Just with a new wallpaper?
kb9vqf	yeo
kb9vqf	*yep
kb9vqf	BTW Trinity contains several simple themes
KingSphinx	Yeah, I know, I've gone through them :)
kb9vqf	do you like Windows 2000?
kb9vqf	thw widget theme that is
kb9vqf	*the
* kb9vqf can't type...again
MutantTurkey	light style 2 is my new fav
KingSphinx	I do like the style of Windows Classic (pretty much 95-2000), but not on my Linux partition. :P
MutantTurkey	I can't stand the new windows themes
MutantTurkey	the old ones I like due to simplicity
KingSphinx	It just doesn't look "right" having TDE look like old Windows...
kb9vqf	ah
kb9vqf	just curious
kb9vqf	personally I use Lipstik
kb9vqf	it's relatively light and gives lots of information when widgets are hovered upon, etc.
MutantTurkey	is bug 229 still valid? It seems this is already included..
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=229 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, REOPENED, include kickoff menu with trinity
kb9vqf	reopened?
kb9vqf	why?
kb9vqf	It's definitely there :)
MutantTurkey	yeah..
MutantTurkey	well robert left some message at the bottom
kb9vqf	oh
kb9vqf	great
kb9vqf	I don't support Kickoff
MutantTurkey	:P
kb9vqf	if he wants to fix it then he can be my guest :)
MutantTurkey	since it stinks...
MutantTurkey	its really counter intuitive and requires alot more thought.
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	I hate it
kb9vqf	split the bug
MutantTurkey	mark as WONTFIX?
kb9vqf	create a new one for the Kickoff improvements, copy&paste his text, then mark this one closed
MutantTurkey	let me check them first
MutantTurkey	maybe an old probelm
KingSphinx	That said though (about the Redmond theme), it does do a good job replicating the Windows look.
kb9vqf	asteriod is much closer
MutantTurkey	redmond does a good job
kb9vqf	*asteroid
KingSphinx	I think KDE 4.8 might replace Kickoff with something else...
MutantTurkey	I can't get past nepomuk
MutantTurkey	it just kills me.
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: also make sure the new bug is marked lowest priority
kb9vqf	nepomuk STINKS
kb9vqf	there are parts of Windows I like
MutantTurkey	well most of his stuff works for me...
kb9vqf	but only up to Windows XP and the old interface
kb9vqf	(not the new "Crayola" one)
MutantTurkey	also, whats the state of our khtml?
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Say so in the new bug report
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Just as bad as ever
kb9vqf	it's a very low priority here
MutantTurkey	yes I assumed so
MutantTurkey	we are going to do a -> webkit right?
kb9vqf	as we have a handful of good web browsers available
KingSphinx	And I'm guessing unlikely to get any better?
MutantTurkey	tqt interface to webkit. :P
kb9vqf	firefox, chrome, opera, etc.
kb9vqf	eventually a KHTML->Webkit transition is planned, but I haven't even started
MutantTurkey	I love webkit (i have my own gtk webkit browser)
kb9vqf	volunteers are welcome :)
kb9vqf	actually as soon as we get completely off the Qt namespace we can integrate Webkit
kb9vqf	as the code is TQt ported we are very close
kb9vqf	to getting off the Qt namespace that is :)_
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: looks like his remarks are invalid.
MutantTurkey	none seem to apply for me
kb9vqf	ok...but that still doesn't make the fact that he posted to a substantially different bug any better :-P
MutantTurkey	I am going to close it.
kb9vqf	mark it closed, mention that it works for you, and remind him that a new bug report should be filed
MutantTurkey	yep
kb9vqf	thanks
MutantTurkey	just did that exactly
kb9vqf	ah, good, you can be trained :))
KingSphinx	(yeah, still talking themes for the moment) Oddly, I find that the older KDE themes (oh-so-creatively titled "KDE 1" and "KDE 2") have a charm to their simplicity... just switched to KDE 2's look/icons. :)
MutantTurkey	how do we mark closed? resolved...?
kb9vqf	well, that's why I kept them around
kb9vqf	they are only a few Kb in size anyway
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Resolved Fixed
MutantTurkey	okay all done
MutantTurkey	are we going to ever get bugwatch@pearsoncomputing to foreward to the ML? if you care enough
MutantTurkey	or if you even wanted to. I know I mentioned it
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kb9vqf	ohhh...oops
kb9vqf	I forgot entirely
MutantTurkey	:))
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	I don't even want to think about that right now, but....
* kb9vqf sets a sticky note for himself
kb9vqf	not sure if we want to flood the devel list with that stuff
kb9vqf	but a new list might be good
kb9vqf	trinity-bugs or something
MutantTurkey	good call
kb9vqf	and maybe one more...trinity-commits
kb9vqf	for when we move to GIT
MutantTurkey	I think you can do like weekly commit digests
* kb9vqf does not know how :P
kb9vqf	but that is in the future
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Can you watch for kcrash actually generating a backtrace?
MutantTurkey	I haven't had anything crash.
kb9vqf	for some reason on my testing machine kcrash always comes up with "invalid backgrace"
kb9vqf	*backtrace
kb9vqf	and it is good that nothing crashed for you :)
MutantTurkey	I need to crash something.
kb9vqf	but I just want to make sure kcrash still works
kb9vqf	make sure you have the Trinity debug symbols and gdb installed before you try it of course :)
MutantTurkey	I probably need to go to bed actually :[
MutantTurkey	which is really annoying because I am so excited I have trinity running!
MutantTurkey	its like 3:20am...
kb9vqf	so...do you like it so far?
MutantTurkey	of course I do!
kb9vqf	glad to hear it :))
MutantTurkey	a few minor gripes
kb9vqf	file bug reports and fix them :)
kb9vqf	j/k ... well ... sort of ...
MutantTurkey	well there are plenty of bugs to work with as of now
MutantTurkey	I consider my self the bug admin ninja
MutantTurkey	I am swooping down on easy to fix ones and knocking them out
MutantTurkey	the administrative work of moving bugs and checking them out. leaving the coding to you :D
MutantTurkey	I actually tried to dig into kmail and almost passed out.
MutantTurkey	I am reading through a dcop vs dbus page now
kb9vqf	yeah, kinda nasty isn't it (kmail)
kb9vqf	dcop is here to stay BTW
MutantTurkey	Its a very large source
kb9vqf	it can do things that dbus can't
MutantTurkey	really?
kb9vqf	and dbus can do things that dcop can't
MutantTurkey	hurm
kb9vqf	so they need each other
MutantTurkey	okay well actually either way I don't care
kb9vqf	it's all backend stuff anyway
kb9vqf	and dcop has never given me problems
MutantTurkey	understood
kb9vqf	stay away from kdepim
MutantTurkey	scary?
kb9vqf	I am probably one of the only people on the planet that understand it
MutantTurkey	oh godness
MutantTurkey	I am going to stick with easier things then :)
kb9vqf	you will be happier :)
kb9vqf	fortunately kdepim is quite stable
kb9vqf	only a few niggling issues
MutantTurkey	my favorite thing about trinity
MutantTurkey	is that it is tried and tested of a long period of time
MutantTurkey	very stable in that sense
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: what is kio_http?
kb9vqf	it is the ioslave used to get http data
MutantTurkey	okay
kb9vqf	I believe it calls in KHTML to display it
MutantTurkey	with gnome3 failing miserably and calls for gnome2 forks, and the upcoming release, its a perfect time to fill the void
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	which is why I'm not futzing with Qt4
kb9vqf	since we absorbed Qt3 I see no reason to switch at this time
MutantTurkey	my hope is to eventually use trinity as my control desktop for my studio
kb9vqf	Qt3 has a LOT of life left in it, especially once we get off the Qt namespace
MutantTurkey	what is the "Qt namespace"
MutantTurkey	I don't get it :P
kb9vqf	first some history :)
kb9vqf	C/C++ uses symbol lookups to get the correct functions within a dhared library
MutantTurkey	KSirc is nice! well much nicer than kivrc.
kb9vqf	they look up by name
MutantTurkey	right, that is familiar
kb9vqf	ksirc is Trinity?
MutantTurkey	no idea. somehow i have it.
kb9vqf	ah
MutantTurkey	I think it must be
MutantTurkey	anyway back to Qt namesparce
kb9vqf	yes it is
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	basically, Qt3 cannot be compiled in with Qt4 in the same program for one reason alone:
kb9vqf	the symbol names would be identical, and the linker would have no idea which version to use
kb9vqf	e.g. QWidget::show()
kb9vqf	Qt3 or Qt4?
kb9vqf	data objects
kb9vqf	QWidget: which one?
kb9vqf	etc.
MutantTurkey	thats terrible
kb9vqf	That collection of classes is referred to as a namespace
MutantTurkey	right
MutantTurkey	so now they all use what instead?
kb9vqf	well, not exactly, but I'm saying it is :)
kb9vqf	so if we use TQWidget, TQObject, etc. we can have Qt3 and Qt4 coexist perfectly
kb9vqf	technically it would then be TQt3 and Qt4 :)
kb9vqf	you could say we moved our namespace from Qt to TQt
kb9vqf	no more symbol clashes
kb9vqf	that also would allow us to use pure Qt4 code where needed
kb9vqf	within Trinity
kb9vqf	e.g. :drumroll: Webkit!
MutantTurkey	but for regular users... no difference
MutantTurkey	or while compiling?
kb9vqf	exactly
kb9vqf	no difference at all, not even when compiling (except that they need to install TQt3, not Qt3)
MutantTurkey	so from the other side, the distro ecosystem
kb9vqf	but we are paving the way now with Qt3 in our GIT tree
MutantTurkey	all they need to do is pull upstream
kb9vqf	yep
MutantTurkey	(us)
MutantTurkey	hrm
MutantTurkey	have you talked to any distros yet?
kb9vqf	nope
kb9vqf	not going to either
MutantTurkey	okay
kb9vqf	not yet
MutantTurkey	understood
kb9vqf	as far as I'm concerned if Trinity is the last Qt3 app then we can absorb Qt3 without anyone even caring
kb9vqf	then Qt3 just becomes part of kdelibs
kb9vqf	so to speak
kb9vqf	and Trinity should be treated as a pure X application
kb9vqf	as the only hooks lower than Qt3 are to XLib and friends
kb9vqf	make sense?
kb9vqf	Qt3 still can't be beat for speed
MutantTurkey	Qt3 is faster than qt4 assumed
kb9vqf	assumed?
kb9vqf	try it :)
MutantTurkey	I haven't seen benchmarks :P
kb9vqf	it is much slower in GFX
MutantTurkey	but same goes for gtk1x and gtk2
kb9vqf	partially due to the new double buffering, etc.
kb9vqf	(which can't be turned off...grr....)
MutantTurkey	annoying
kb9vqf	it's a memory pig
kb9vqf	the classes are smaller, meaning more code goes into the end application
kb9vqf	it's good for many smaller apps, but NOT GOOD for a full desktop IMHO
MutantTurkey	everything new is a memory pig
MutantTurkey	though kde3 isn't exactly the most conservative :P
kb9vqf	and you've seen some of the other fun with the QString to double conversions
MutantTurkey	yeah I've seen it.
kb9vqf	it's an unstable mess
kb9vqf	like I said, great for a lot of apps
kb9vqf	but for huge apps it's a royal pain
MutantTurkey	i mean, that's something so basic... it should even be a problem.
kb9vqf	I know
kb9vqf	now figure how many similar problems there are in codepaths that aren't commonly used on mobile telephones...
kb9vqf	:yikes:
kb9vqf	Qt3 is STABLE
kb9vqf	kind of like Xlib
MutantTurkey	Xlib is terrible though :P
kb9vqf	Yes it is
MutantTurkey	have you seen xcb?
kb9vqf	?
MutantTurkey	it's awesome
MutantTurkey	it's the new (actually like 2006ish)
MutantTurkey	standard
MutantTurkey	X C Bindings, wayy faster.
kb9vqf	ah
kb9vqf	no, not really
MutantTurkey	frankly I hate the whole X11 stack
MutantTurkey	i think it doesn't make sense for a desktop
kb9vqf	not sure
MutantTurkey	the server/client nature of it was good in 1985 with one mainframe.
kb9vqf	especially with the trend towards mainframes again
MutantTurkey	good point
kb9vqf	BTW xcb is not always faster http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xcb/2009-February/004321.html
kb9vqf	It's one of Qt4's problems :P
MutantTurkey	interesting
MutantTurkey	I still think xlib is a PITA
kb9vqf	and Qt3 abstracts us from that
kb9vqf	I say stick with the tried and true for something as basic as a desktop
kb9vqf	unless you don't have the features needed
kb9vqf	which I have yet to come across
kb9vqf	leave the experimentation to video games and apps that *need* that much power
kb9vqf	and the risk of instability
MutantTurkey	right
kb9vqf	*at
MutantTurkey	I wish we had something like mac or windows, the video component in the kernel
MutantTurkey	many people are warey of it
kb9vqf	we're getting there
kb9vqf	kms
MutantTurkey	I know
kb9vqf	looks good to me
MutantTurkey	http://microxwin.com
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MutantTurkey	kernel module x server
kb9vqf	page is down
* l0ner is watching silently
MutantTurkey	performance is crazy better
kb9vqf	actually I use the nvidia open source driver
kb9vqf	works well for me *and* I get full XRandR 1.2 support
MutantTurkey	intel has great support  luckily
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTurkey	i guess its because it's so simple... :P
kb9vqf	Intel is very good there
MutantTurkey	no performance, but all the stability
kb9vqf	hey...it runs Compiz!
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	a workhorse for business
kb9vqf	actually I'd prefer that
kb9vqf	once you go to the Quadro series though NVidia is pretty good
MutantTurkey	alright almost 4am... need to sleep :P
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	me too
MutantTurkey	luckily I have the afternoon shift tomorrow. 1pm!
MutantTurkey	so still a good 8 hours of sleep
l0ner	so, form whats is written on the microxwin page, it can be easily used as a replacement for x11?
MutantTurkey	l0ner: with some work
MutantTurkey	I have run it following his instructions
MutantTurkey	basically the problem is that it is a closed source kernel module
MutantTurkey	(which isn't that ridiculous, seeing as we have plenty of binay driver blobs)
l0ner	yes
MutantTurkey	but the theory is there.
MutantTurkey	if only someone would make an open source version of it.
l0ner	but because of that it wont get mainstream
MutantTurkey	If i win lottery, I am purchasing it from him.
MutantTurkey	:p
l0ner	good luck ;)
l0ner	but i have seen somewere something like that
MutantTurkey	anyway
l0ner	don't remember where tho
MutantTurkey	I am going to sleep.
l0ner	g'nite ;)
MutantTurkey	I'll talk to you all tomorrow sometime actually thurdsay probably.
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l0ner	it's strange, people goes tho sleep when I have just woken up
* l0ner blames(?) TMZ difference
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 487 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=487 normal, P2, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, KPDF Page Scrolling Broken When Using Keyboard
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 485 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=485 needs packaging, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, kbookreader needs packaging
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 488 filed by remibouhl@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=488 minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kolourpaint, okular (maybe others) are frozen by defuncted SSHFS mount.
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 489 filed by raevynsrequiem@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=489 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, Pidgin Fails to launch
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 489 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 484 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=484 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, Qt3 needs patching to build under ARM
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 253 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=253 minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, Radio buttons and check boxes  do not display properly when toggled
tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Component on bug 408 from kdeutils to debian.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=408 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Conflict, when install basket from KDE4 and from trinity in debian squeeze
tbottu	10robxu9@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 459 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=459 blocker, P1, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, Detecting $KDEHOME to avoid conflicts with KDE3 and KDE4
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 490 filed by sh4dou@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=490 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, adding support for PulseAudio application volume control
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 491 filed by sh4dou@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=491 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Desktop panel auto length
tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 229 from REOPENED to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=229 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, include kickoff menu with trinity
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 492 filed by kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=492 blocker, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kdmctl cannot parse active sessions
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KingSphinx	I'm running update-manager to upgrade Trinity to 11.04, but I have a few concerns before I start the upgrade...
KingSphinx	kde-guidance-kde3, kde-guidance-powermanager-kde3, openoffice.org-kde3, guidance-backends-kde3 and python-kde3-kde3 want to be removed. Are any of these essential?
Piki	KingSphinx: i don't use ubuntu, so i can't help, but if nobody answers soon, the best thing to do would be to back up your data before upgrading
KingSphinx	That's fine, I can wait for someone to help. Plus my /home's on a separate partition, so I can just reinstall if something goes wrong.
Piki	the best suggestion i have there is to see if there are tde equivalents. openoffice.org-kde and python-kde3 shouldn't be needed, those are just extensions, and powermanager should only be needed for laptops or changing cpu frequencies if the cpu supports that
Piki	not sure about the others
Xu_R	meepmeep
Xu_R	hey Piki, KingSphinx
Xu_R	KingSphinx: only up to 11.04 if you want to use nightly builds... heh... heh... d:
Xu_R	*D:
Xu_R	looks like tbottu is working again... after a momentarily spaz in bug reports...
kb9vqf	those were all the bug reports that were queued up
kb9vqf	I didn't realize the but watch account was blocked until last night :-/
kb9vqf	*bug
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Xu_R	:-\
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: hey, I just noticed something
Xu_R	ah, damnit, I missed
Xu_R	I feel happy for openSUSE now :D
KingSphinx	Why? Did Trinity get ported to it?
Xu_R	well, KDE3 is back in the main distribution (aka, again supported)
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Xu_R	I'm the one that's supposed to be porting it to SuSE, so I better work fast XD
* Xu_R notes however that real-life work is catching up with him...
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MT	kb9vqf: hey
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MT	is bug 365 valid?
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=365 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, GPG Key and Repositories not Accessible
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KingSphinx	Well, Unity installed without much trouble. Only major issue seems to be that the Ubuntu Software Center doesn't seem to want to install stuff; apt-get is a workaround though.
MT	I dont like Ubuntu
MT	they have like 150000 ways to access packaging
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KingSphinx	"If one breaks, there's another way to get around it" is how I see it
mutantturkey	kb9vqf: I also closed bug 322
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=322 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, kdegraphics build warnings
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mutantturkey	yeah... arch has one that never breaks :D
KingSphinx	Just curious... are you using Trinity in Arch? Didn't think there was an "official" build for that yet...
mutantturkey	I am working on it. progress has slowed.
KingSphinx	Ah
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KingSphinx	Great... I have no sound at all. Not even in Trinity now.
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Xu_R	DX
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backwoodsman	anyone awake?
backwoodsman	anyone know if the Maverick install instructions will work on Natty?
mutantturkey	hey
mutantturkey	I think on the hone page there is a news bulletin about natty
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KingSphinx	Alright, got my sound back... at least for now. :)
Qu4Z	Yay!
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MutantTurkey	saw a trinity mention on reddit yesterday
MutantTurkey	the one complaint: debian only
MutantTurkey	so geting more distros on it would be great in terms of opening it up
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MTurkey	kb9vqf: did you see why
MTurkey	what I said yesterday
MTurkey	I LT was about a bug
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l0ner	Just an idea: could someone add informations that compilation of qt3 from your git is required to compile tqt? and how-to would be nice too.
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: I can't push to tde-packaging
Xu_R	error: no DAV locking support
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MutantTurkey	o/
kb9vqf	huh?
MutantTurkey	what's up?
kb9vqf	Xu_R: How did you check out that repository?
kb9vqf	sounds like you used the wrong URL
Xu_R	kb9vqf: nope, used the right URL
kb9vqf	which was?
Xu_R	error: no DAV locking support on http://rxu@scm.trinitydesktop.org/scm/git/tde-packaging/
Xu_R	fatal: git-http-push failed
kb9vqf	ah
Xu_R	or... i'm sure that's the right url ^^"
kb9vqf	I just committed some stuff of my own earlier today
kb9vqf	so it *should* be working
kb9vqf	I assume you are doing "git push origin master"?
Xu_R	yup
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: just letting you know I'll be gone till sunday. but in case the world ends or anything I have email where i'm at
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Does it ask for a password then fail, or does it fail before the password?
kb9vqf	ok
Xu_R	asks for a password twice then fails
kb9vqf	sounds like a wrong password
Xu_R	pretty sure it isn't...
kb9vqf	well it works for me...
kb9vqf	can you check out a new copy with the same password?
Xu_R	trying...
Xu_R	yea, that same password works
kb9vqf	very odd
kb9vqf	let me try checking something in
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Works for me :-/
Xu_R	D:
Xu_R	I'll try again :-\
kb9vqf	Xu_R You don't have write access
kb9vqf	did you cange your password yet?
kb9vqf	*change
Xu_R	I changed my password already...
Xu_R	twice...
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	I never granted you access
Xu_R	>_>"
kb9vqf	because I didn't know it had been changed yet
kb9vqf	the default is not secure...
Xu_R	ah...
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Fixed :)
Xu_R	:D
kb9vqf	don't you hate git's obscure error messages though?
Xu_R	guess so :-\
Xu_R	but a google search came a bit closer :P
Xu_R	pushed some stuff :D
kb9vqf	looking good...though I admit I don't know much about the RPM build process ;-)
Xu_R	hehe ;P and I admit I have no clue about debian packaging
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: do you think it's ok if I start naming packages like tde-kdelibs instead of kdelibs3 or kdelibs-trinity?
kb9vqf	how about tdelibs
kb9vqf	the -trinity extension in Ubuntu/Debian is legacy ;-)
Xu_R	just start replacing kde with tde now?
kb9vqf	go ahead since you are starting anew
Xu_R	ah, ok. because I was thinking that might not be what you would like :)
kb9vqf	Debian/Ubuntu is a bit trickier because of the relatively long history
kb9vqf	people are used to searching for *-trinity
kb9vqf	or *-kde3
Xu_R	ah, true
kb9vqf	I don't want to keep "kde" in the names if we don't have to
Xu_R	ok
tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 322 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
kb9vqf	grr, bugwatch stalled again
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=322 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, kdegraphics build warnings
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 493 filed by kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=493 needs packaging, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kkbswitch needs packaging
Xu_R	tbottu doesn't like bugwatch very much...
tbottu	Xu_R: Error: "doesn't" is not a valid command.
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 100 from UNCONFIRMED to NEEDINFO.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=100 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEEDINFO, Keyboard layout switcher does not work
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mturkey	hey there
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sinedeviance	hi all! i was wondering if any of you know how large trinity-desktop is installed?
sinedeviance	i am asking because i have a debian server that i have installed it onto. my / partition only has the base system, mysql/apache2/php, htop, and trinity-desktop installed, but for some reason my partition is showing 4.5gb of usage. this seems really strange
sinedeviance	if nobody knows, can you tell me how to completely remove trinity-desktop so i can check my partition size after removal and then reinstall?
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kb9vqf	Xu_R|ZNC: can you take a look at Bug 100 if you have time?
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=100 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEEDINFO, Keyboard layout switcher does not work
kb9vqf	it sounds simple enough to fix
kb9vqf	(though I would definitely verify that it is still present in the latest SVN before working on it)
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 494 filed by nick@leverton.org.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=494 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, nspluginviewer fix in r1224648 fails with Adobe flash 10.3 and flash 11beta
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 495 filed by ogldelphi@mail.ru.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=495 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, add DSL support in knetworkmanager
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Xu_R	hey MutantTurkey
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MutantTurkey	hey just got back
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Xu_R	!seen kb9vqf
tbottu	Xu_R: kb9vqf was last seen in #trinity-desktop 1 day, 12 hours, 4 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <kb9vqf> (though I would definitely verify that it is still present in the latest SVN before working on it)
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Aristide	Hi ! ^^
Aristide	Do you have a repositories for SUSE ?
Xu_R	not yet D:
* Xu_R is working on his spare time to bring them to SuSE
Aristide	Ok :)
Xu_R	I suggest you use KDE:KDE3 for now though.
Xu_R	(or XFCE ;P)
Aristide	KDE:KDE3 ...
Aristide	Ok
Aristide	Xu_R: So, can i install KDE3 without uninstall KDE4 ?
Xu_R	Aristide: yes. Both can be installed side by side
Aristide	Yes
Aristide	YES !
Aristide	I go try to install it o/
Xu_R	:D
Xu_R	There's still an active opensuse-kde3 mailing list~~
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a^phorce	l
tbottu	10ogldelphi@mail.ru changed the Status on bug 42 from NEEDINFO to CONFIRMED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=42 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, CONFIRMED, gtk-qt-engine-kde3 does not work properly
tbottu	10ogldelphi@mail.ru changed the Status on bug 429 from NEEDINFO to UNCONFIRMED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=429 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, UNCONFIRMED, Kicker crashes because of Esc key
tbottu	10ogldelphi@mail.ru changed the Status on bug 429 from UNCONFIRMED to NEEDINFO.
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MutantTurkey	hey all
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 492 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=492 blocker, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, kdmctl cannot parse active sessions
ab__	you guys are awesome
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Xu_R	!seen kb9vqf
tbottu	Xu_R: kb9vqf was last seen in #trinity-desktop 2 days, 18 hours, 54 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <kb9vqf> (though I would definitely verify that it is still present in the latest SVN before working on it)
Xu_R	darn it, where is he...
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l0ner	Xu_R: No prob ;)
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Xu_R	l0ner: :D
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 496 filed by ogldelphi@mail.ru.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=496 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, knetworkmanager-trinity 3.5.12 doesn't work with TDE 3.5.13
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MutantTurkey	o/
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: saw your page on the etherpad about converting to nightly builds
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: nice
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MutantTurkey	Xu_R: also i email tim with an updated relatedproject.php
MutantTurkey	added qt3 into it
MutantTurkey	is that good you thjink?
Xu_R	probably a good idea, since we became upstream...
MutantTurkey	supossedly :P
Xu_R	hehe
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 496 from NEW to RESOLVED INVALID.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=496 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED INVALID, knetworkmanager-trinity 3.5.12 doesn't work with TDE 3.5.13
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Space_Man	what is best distro to use that is up to date and uses fglrx?
Space_Man	or has an easy method to install fglrx?
Xu_R	ubuntu + derivatives, or maybe ATi's repo for openSUSE... iouno truthfully. my ATi card is on windows ;P
Space_Man	I was thinking about ubuntu, but how do you install the latest version (11.04) with trinity?
Space_Man	mint debian is another option
Xu_R	use maverick builds for now, unless you want to use nightly ;P
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Piki	hi
strangelv	:: had dependancy problems trying to install TDE Meerkat packages to a Natty USB drive
strangelv	"Hello
strangelv	So I'm not suer if Meekrkat packages work with Natty right now
strangelv	"This was al/slo sthe 32 bit version, which I don't normally use
* strangelv 's subnotebook/netbook has a 32 bit Centaur CPU
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Xu_R	strangelv: really? D:
Xu_R	you wanna try nightly? it's pretty broken, and there's no meta packages, but it's worth a shot if you know what to install ;P
strangelv	"I might try that sometime, although it was mostly an expecriment.  The amin thing I needed to do was reset my clock to before 2002 so fsck wouldn't freak out and prevent mounting of any HD partitions
strangelv	"I set it to 2 January 1970
strangelv	"Up and running right now; may need to repat the exercise if the CMOS doesn't keep enough of a charge.  Teed ot buyp a new battery for it.
* strangelv is too close to falling asleep to ask forl directions for nightly
strangelv	"My new hardware problem is a monitor that doesn't seem to work with anything newer than Jaunty
Xu_R	:-\
Xu_R	go to sleep, figure it out in the morning.
strangelv	It's always been delicat eand prone to showing me a screen consitting of a red rectangle with OUT OF RANGE in screaming capitals
strangelv	"I tried installing Meerkat server, and it goes out of range on text.  Linux always changes the text mode a couple of seconds into initialization.  That text mode change sends it out of bounds
strangelv	"Basically, it's completely unusable as a bench display
* strangelv 's effort to get back up to speed in Python with a wiki page cerating script at least is going okay, not that he's aware of anything that TDE needs scripted in Python
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Piki	hi
Xu_R	hello Piki
Piki	hi Xu_R
Xu_R	anything new?
Piki	nope
Piki	trying to see if BQ is alive. she's apparently online, just not in any channels according to her /whois
Xu_R	well, she's been busy lately
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Piki	that was dumb :-(
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Xu_R	accidental exiting?
Piki	Xu_R: incorrect comman, typed /quit instead of /part
Xu_R	nice.
Piki	so konversation stayed open, but i d/ced from freenode
Xu_R	I know what /quit is xP
Piki	some clients actually quit instead of just d/cing :-)
Xu_R	i know, but I'm talking standard behavior :P
Xu_R	have you started packaging Trinity for ark?
Piki	i'm waiting for bero to put out an iso with recent packages included
Piki	manually upgrading packages via command line seems to be causing a lot of issues for me
Piki	and AFAIK bero hasn't fixed zypper/apt-rpm
Xu_R	Piki: you don't need to test the spec files right away - just write them out based on the old ones
Xu_R	you can test them when a new iso comes out
Piki	i know, i prefer to do the packages when i do the specs
Piki	i don't know why, just feels more comfortable for my work flow
Xu_R	Piki: yea... I know how it feels, but it's going to be a time waster... easier to take the old srpms, unrpm them, mod the spec, and then test later
Piki	we've wasted a lot of time already, and it's looking like we're not releasing any time soon :-)
Xu_R	where did you get that?
Xu_R	we're only stuck on bug fixing?
Piki	i'm talking ark
Xu_R	ah, ark.
Piki	we used to do a release every year, our last release was in 2008, and bero's taking his time with the new iso
Xu_R	I may have a solution to ark's rpm problem (thanks, jbj) but from therein I don't know.
Piki	rpm works fine in ark, we just need to either a) setup apt-rpm5, or b) finish porting zypper to rpm5
Xu_R	oh, oops. s/rpm/zypper
Piki	the problem i'm having with manually upgrading is a bad package from bero
Piki	Xu_R: hmm?
Xu_R	I meant I have a solution to libzypp/libsatsolver/zypper...
Piki	ok
Xu_R	(courtesy of Yacto/Poky Linux)
Piki	ok
Xu_R	Piki: oh, and btw, we migrated SVN.td to GIT.td
Xu_R	Piki: git.trinitydesktop.org
* Xu_R guesses you already knew that anyway
Piki	Xu_R: you can email the solution to bero@arklinux.org, he seems to have fixed the mail server to forward to the correct email
Piki	no, i didn't know
Xu_R	Piki: I know his email address, just need to make sure he's actually there ;P
Piki	haven't been paying much attention lately, haven't spent as much time as usual at the computer (no reason, really, just been stressed out lately)
Piki	Xu_R: his email wasn't working, it existed on arklinux.org and the mail server works correctly, but he was having it forward to his work email, which he had to change when he got his new job, and it works now
Xu_R	Piki: I knew about it. I know he email address has been working for a while now - I emailed him last month or so and he responded right away.
Xu_R	it's bero@arklinux.ch
Piki	that too
Piki	i normally send it to .org, but the mail server can use both .org and .ch
Piki	was my version control access migrated from svn to git
Piki	?
Xu_R	Piki: no, you need a new account
Xu_R	Piki: in addition, no data was kept on the migration
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Piki	Xu_R: no biggie, i didn't upload anything important
Piki	i guess i need to email tim?
Xu_R	yea.
Piki	email sent
Piki	being that i'm new to git, i need to ask, would the command be "git clone something"?
Piki	for a checkout?
Xu_R	well, yes
Xu_R	except GIT doesn't do checkouts, it's cloning
Xu_R	because GIT essentially downloads the whole repo to your folder
Piki	what's the clone url for tde-packaging?
Xu_R	you'll get it with your account info
Piki	ok
Xu_R	because your clone url needs to have your username in it
Piki	how do i commit?
Xu_R	you know what, let me just put a readme file at the root of the repo so that it's easy to get adjusted
Piki	ok
Xu_R	Piki: I made the README, it should show up
Piki	ok
Xu_R	yup, it showed up now
Piki	just read it, i'll probably be referring to it a lot until i get used to git :-)
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Xu_R	it's really not that different
Xu_R	damnit. hold on, restarting XChat
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Xu_R	back
Piki	ok O.o
* Xu_R actually restarted XChat - ZNC just keeps me online
Piki	znc?
Xu_R	yea
Piki	never heard of it
Xu_R	znc, bnc, etc... let's you exit your client but keeps you connected and logs while you're not connected
Piki	is it like where i have a desktop running an irc client with my nick connected, then i can, e.g. use my laptop to connect to the desktop via my local router and attach the client on my laptop to the irc connection already on the desktop?
Xu_R	Piki: yea. you can have no clients or you can 10 clients
Xu_R	you'll still be logged in
Piki	i've also heard of people running a client like irssi in a screen session to remain connected, and they can detach from screen whenever they're leaving the computer
Xu_R	yea, that's possible.
ar	Xu_R: all you can the the better thing and run irssi in tmux/screen
Xu_R	ar: I already have ZNC set up, and it served me well, especially in china, where you can't use ssh.
Xu_R	I'll stick with my ZNC ^^
ar	Xu_R: you can't?
ar	that's interesting
Xu_R	ar: nope. cryptography like ssh is banned in china. the biggest PITA ever.
Xu_R	closest thing to that is webssh, and that is pretty terrible. most websshs are blocked by the great firewall, too.
ar	i'm running my own "webssh" on my own server
Piki	webssh is just ssh through a web browser, still cryptography :-)
ar	http://code.google.com/p/shellinabox/
Xu_R	ar: if only (i didn't have a freaking DSL connection)
Xu_R	Piki: easier than getting portblocked from everywhere. damn ISP.
Piki	Xu_R: i need to use webssh and webchat at the local community college, they like knowing exactly what we're doing :-)
Piki	if only i could use an ssh tunnel from behind their firewall :-(
Piki	but port 22 is blocked, and i'm pretty sure they block the port i use for ssh on my server
Xu_R	ok, let me try this again. they blocked freenode in china. they blocked ssh ports. they can detect VPN connections and kill them.
ar	i also have a nice hack on my server
ar	if i hit a special url via https, the next connection from my current ip gets passed to openvpn instead of httpd
Xu_R	ar: wow, nice
ar	nothing special. just a simple cgi script with extra permisions and a bit of iptables magic
Xu_R	not bad.
ar	had an idea about actually making it a proper webapp with "special urls" being usable only once and randomly generated
ar	but, as always, time's an issue
Xu_R	always is
Xu_R	detach #opensuse-buildservice
Xu_R	eek, oops.
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Xu_R	scheduled a bug day (august meeting) for next tuesday
Xu_R	this was long overdue.
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Qu4Z	Hm... are there any plans to fix konqueror's file browsing ability? It used to be half decent, now it's decidedly sub-par. Which is a shame, 'cause it's an awesome program.
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Piki	hi
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Xu_R	why hello thar people
Space_Man	hi Piki, Xu_R
Xu_R	hey Space_Man
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strangelv	Qu4Z: what seems to be broken?
strangelv	"...and what are you running
strangelv	:: isn't have thourble, but he's still running Meerkat TDE Kubuntu
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 497 filed by kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=497 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, run dialog enhancement
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MutantTurkey	Xu_R: ilya said he has patches for hal?
MutantTurkey	thats aweome
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: he claims that.
Xu_R	but I haven't seen anything to indicate that
Xu_R	in fact, he was asking about reincluding HAL into factory, so I think he's just making that up in the end.
* Xu_R notes that I may have missed something
Xu_R	yea, Ilya seems to be bragging.
Xu_R	The closest I can come to what he says is some udev rules about automounting
Xu_R	(and that has nothing to do with integration with KDE3)
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MutantTurkey	okay.
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KingSphinx	Assuming packages aren't ready in time for Ocelot, will upgrading to 11.10 be the same situation as the 10.10-11.04 deal or will additonal steps need to be taken?
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 498 filed by ogldelphi@mail.ru.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=498 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, moreblue-orbit-moodin doesn't look correct on widescreen
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 499 filed by nick@leverton.org.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=499 minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Knotes resizing corner doesn't always activate on focus
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 499 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=499 minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, Knotes resizing corner doesn't always activate on focus
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Space_Man	woo hoo, I'm now using trinity 3.5.12 but what has happened to knemo and kdegames?
Space_Man	installed kubuntu 10.10 and then upgraded to 11.04
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 500 filed by kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=500 needs packaging, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Add window docking application to Trinity
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 501 filed by e_r_i_c@gmx.net.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=501 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Sylpheed 3.0.2 crashes on saving an attachment
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 502 filed by ogldelphi@mail.ru.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=502 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, backport dolphin kde4 "show some pics from a directory on folder icon" feature
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MutantTurkey	jumpship: I put down 20
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MutantTurkey	storms...
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cpatrick08	hi
MutantTurkey	hi!
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cpatrick08	sorry about that printscreen was putting alot of screens out
cpatrick08	i love this os so much good job
jumpship	Yeah, it's nice to see someone take this on, these guys are gods in my book
cpatrick08	now if somebody could fork gnome 2 then both gnome 3 and kde 4 haters would be happy
Qu4Z	Mentioning Gnome in a kde channel... you're trading on dangerous ground :P
Qu4Z	*treading
cpatrick08	yea
jumpship	I think the Gnome2 crowd might be happy with XFCE, I didn't care for either, but XFCE seemed pretty similar to Gnome2 (or at least on it's way there)
cpatrick08	true
Qu4Z	But you're right. What is it with DE developers and suddenly going off and doing their own completely useless thing :/
cpatrick08	it looks like it is for tablets just like unity looks like it is for tablets also
jumpship	but without Trinity I'd have been left in the cold when Debian moved to KDE4
Qu4Z	Tablets are overrated
jumpship	I think they got bored
cpatrick08	yea Tablets are overrated
Qu4Z	I'd buy one if it came with a wallmount and a dvi port and I could use it as an extra monitor for my desktop, though :P
jumpship	I'm only interested when a cell or similar service lets me connect it live to my desktop
cpatrick08	the only touch thing i like is the ipod touch
Qu4Z	I dunno. I think if I could use it as a monitor most of the time, sync files to it wirelessly, and then take it with me when I left I'd be vaguely interested.
jumpship	like a mobile thin client
Qu4Z	jumpship: My concern there would be latency
Qu4Z	Unresponsive interfaces are a PITA
jumpship	sure, the tech isn't there yet, and the services seem to be moving to wrong way
Qu4Z	Yeah, if it were responsive, that'd be awesome.
cpatrick08	that is true
jumpship	even being able to do it over wifi around the house would be nice, but the price is too high for what I want right now
cpatrick08	yea tablets do cost alot
Qu4Z	Well, if it were usable as a monitor the rest of the time that'd offset the cost a bit for me, I think.
Qu4Z	But yes, they're friggin' expensive.
jumpship	I'd really like a modular mobile setup, sorta like how open a desktop is, but portable
jumpship	I would spend the money on a tablet if I could find one with a line in for audio, for less than $400, but I havn't see one yet
cpatrick08	the Coby Kyros MID7015 7-Inch Android has that for less than $200 http://www.amazon.com/Coby-MID7015-Android-Internet-Touchscreen/dp/B0047Q9GT4
cpatrick08	it has a hdmi slot and a usb 2.0 slot
Qu4Z	I really want to just take a subset of my PC with me :P
Qu4Z	Like, the keyboard, and a screen. Plug them together, and ... TADA
jumpship	I see those, that would be nice, but I didn't see a line in, my goal would be to use linux with jack on top, I think it would be cool to use it as a dsp
jumpship	wouldn't vnc or rdp let you use it as a second monitor, I seem to remember a system for using a second computer to drive a second monitor, don't know how well it would work, but sounds like fun to try
cpatrick08	i am running trinity on the maverick and i was wonderig if anybody has tried it on squeeze if so is it better than the ubuntu tde
jumpship	I use squeeze, I havn't tried Ubuntu, but I think Ubuntu is what the developers use
cpatrick08	ok you like it i was thinking bout switching from  ubuntu to squeeze tde
jumpship	It's hard to say, they are very similar, I like Debian, but I've had a few little problems I suspect are because the developers use Ubuntu, for example Ubuntu uses sudo and Debian uses su, you can use either with both I guess
jumpship	The current bug of the week is a good example of the problems I've seen
cpatrick08	yea so what problems do you face jumpship
jumpship	I switched to using sudo instead of su to avoid the bug, other than that I can't remember exactly, I don't know that TDE is really any different in either
cpatrick08	yea but i herd the debian base is more stable than the ubuntu base
jumpship	I guess it depends on what you mean by stable, as in not changing or not crashing
cpatrick08	less bugs
jumpship	I really couldn't say about ubuntu, but Squeeze has been very good to me
jumpship	You might try the mailing list, noone seems to be in here today
cpatrick08	ok
cpatrick08	gotta go ttyl
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 503 filed by ogldelphi@mail.ru.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=503 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kmix wont autostart
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Kodo_	hello
Kodo_	i've just installed trinity desktop, and run into a problem..
Kodo_	i try to mount a home where i've used kde 3.5.10; i have already found out that i had to rename .kde to .trinity
Kodo_	but still, i can't seem to access my Desktop folder in the appropriate way
Kodo_	my home-folder is shown on my desktop
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 504 filed by ogldelphi@mail.ru.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=504 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, [PaperCut] search kickoff menu bug/enhancement
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MutantTurkey	Xu_R: dude...
MutantTurkey	this is ridiculous
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MutantTurkey	Xu_R: so the kicker bug i will marked closed
MutantTurkey	if i can find it...
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: srry for delay, have to go out now
Xu_R	D:
* Xu_R was just scrambling around for something
MutantTurkey	except band just got here :P
Xu_R	o.
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KingSphinx	Any idea what's going to happen when Ubuntu rolls over to GTK3? Will QtCurve take care of themeing GTK apps or is there something else that needs to be done?
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kb9vqf	Hi all
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: http://git.trinitydesktop.org/viewgit/index.php?a=tree&p=Trinity%20Desktop%20Environment&hb=HEAD&f=main/thirdparty/libreoffice/3.3.2/patches
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	Not TQt converted yet, but functional with LibreOffice
kb9vqf	It took a LONG time to get that to work
kb9vqf	the OOO/LibreOffice build system is a royal pain
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zacario	hi
zacario	is it possible to display a search bar in konqueror?
Xu_R	kb9vqf: nice :D
kb9vqf	Xu_R: When is the bug day anyway?
Xu_R	kb9vqf: it was supposed to be today...
kb9vqf	ohh
kb9vqf	great :(
kb9vqf	are you still stuck on arts?
kb9vqf	Xu_R: ^^^
Xu_R	kb9vqf: yea :-\
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Look at the CMake D options here: http://git.trinitydesktop.org/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=Trinity%20Desktop%20Environment%20Packaging&h=7be8b00579ccf2169b9c4df673baa4962bc190e4&hb=HEAD&f=ubuntu/maverick/dependencies/arts/debian/rules
kb9vqf	(the line beginning with DEB_CMAKE_EXTRA_FLAGS)
kb9vqf	see what is different in your build
Xu_R	ok, will look
kb9vqf	let me know if you see anything different
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: I put a lot more flags, but it should have had the same effect... I think I need to look for a missing dependency...
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Can you pastebin the failure again?
kb9vqf	note that I need the entire build log
Xu_R	kb9vqf: http://slexy.org/view/s21O10uz5j
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 503 from NEW to NEEDINFO.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=503 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEEDINFO, kmix wont autostart
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Can I see this patch: arts-vorbis-fix.dif
Xu_R	http://slexy.org/view/s2wuFAPtUn
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Can you send me the CMake cache from that build?
kb9vqf	Specifically I want to know what VORBISFILE_LIBRARIES was set to
Xu_R	kb9vqf: I'm currently running that same build again (no changes), so I'll be able to give you a fresh cache...
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	thanks
kb9vqf	Xu_R: I assume you did pull the latest SVN before rebuilding though?
Xu_R	yup
kb9vqf	ok, good
kb9vqf	my hunch is that -lvorbisfile is not being passed to the gsl linker
kb9vqf	but I will see shortly
Xu_R	ok
Xu_R	hmm... I can confirm I have all the dependencies needed to link vorbis. so it's not a dependency problem
Xu_R	kb9vqf: I hope you didn't mind that I put README.GIT at the root of tde-packaging ^_^"
kb9vqf	just a copy of the one in tde?
kb9vqf	that's fine
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Can I see the cache files?
Xu_R	right on time, the build just failed exactly as you sent me that message
Xu_R	getting the files
Xu_R	http://slexy.org/view/s20LRUSVgO
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Can you try this: In arts/flow/gsl/CMakeLists.txt try adding ${VORBIS_LIBRARIES} right after ${VORBISFILE_LIBRARIES} (make sure there is a space between the two ${..} ${..} structures)
kb9vqf	then rebuild
kb9vqf	it might not do anything but it's worth a shot
Xu_R	ok
Xu_R	ok, rebuilding
Xu_R	kb9vqf: and btw, the README.GIT in tde-packaging isn't the same as in tde ^_^" lol, didn't know there was one in tde :P
kb9vqf	http://git.trinitydesktop.org/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=Trinity%20Desktop%20Environment&h=121b8495bc2f727c92284ce75b8c1524bef5bcbc&hb=1a436852966432ac4be3d4890b3f46c9584d7892&f=README.GIT
Xu_R	ah, ok... mine was more of just all the commands you would need to use ;P
kb9vqf	which one do you like better?
Xu_R	I was just thinking of merging the two - both of them are good
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	merge them in tde-packaging
kb9vqf	I'll look over the result and make final changes before putting it in tde
kb9vqf	how is the build?
Xu_R	ok
Xu_R	still building
kb9vqf	is that a good sign?
kb9vqf	i.e. would it have failed before now?
Xu_R	no, because it hasn't gotten up to that part yet
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	your build log isn't very useful TBH
kb9vqf	debian will say "leaving directory xxx" when the build fails
kb9vqf	yours does not :(
kb9vqf	where xxx is the directory containing the failing library build
Xu_R	it doesn't?
Xu_R	strange, I thought it does...
Xu_R	kb9vqf: I can confirm that fix does work
kb9vqf	Great! :))
kb9vqf	I'm going to dinner; poke me a bit later so that I can upload it to SVN
Xu_R	ok
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Fixed in SVN revision 1248403
Xu_R	kb9vqf: thanks ^_^
kb9vqf	np
kb9vqf	I assume this will help with your RPM builds ;-)
Xu_R	of course ;)
Xu_R	wonderful, arts finished building :D
kb9vqf	great!
kb9vqf	poke me if you have any other problems
Xu_R	ok
Xu_R	kb9vqf: and I revised README.GIT :) http://git.trinitydesktop.org/viewgit/?a=viewblob&p=Trinity%20Desktop%20Environment%20Packaging&h=65c5312e3ec11db32bdc8b90c1da47ca3b12c9cc&hb=6507e11446a26cf7882ecc8658e505b6adce8e61&f=README.GIT
* Xu_R just spotted a typo - oops.
* Xu_R goes to fix that typo ;)
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* strangelv reads an emoil that there was a meeting 46 minutes ago.
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Did I manage to miss the meeting?
kb9vqf	I thought it was Tuesday
Xu_R	I guess I'll push it to Tuesday then.
Xu_R	It was supposed to be today
Xu_R	bug day + meeting
Xu_R	D:
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kb9vqf	ah
kb9vqf	sorry about that
kb9vqf	our dev team seems to be falling apart
kb9vqf	oh well
kb9vqf	we may just end up using the nightly builds for a while
kb9vqf	in the absence of bug fixes I can't release 3.5.13
Xu_R	true. MutantTurkey managed to get some bugs closed, and I'm not seeing anything that would block Trinity on my 11.04 except kdesudo :-|
kb9vqf	how is kdesudo now?
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kb9vqf	it was rebuilt in the past few days
kb9vqf	odd--I didn't see any code from MutantTurkey :-/
kb9vqf	so they must have been invalid reports
Xu_R	kb9vqf: kdesudo is still not working D':
Xu_R	kb9vqf: probably.
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	I'll look into it
kb9vqf	You keep working on the RPM packages
kb9vqf	we need those ASAP
kb9vqf	so that OpenSUSE can throw some of its developers our way ;-)
Xu_R	:)
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Which version of kdesudo do you have installed?
Xu_R	latest - from today's updates...
Xu_R	(I updated today)
kb9vqf	Xu_R: what exactly happens?
kb9vqf	the reason I ask is it works fine here (!?!??)
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: really? it still does nothing on my end
Xu_R	same errors
MutantTurkey	hey
MutantTurkey	band just left
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Which version?
kb9vqf	dpkg -l | grep kdesudo
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Xu_R	4:3.5.13-0ubuntu7+r1246260+pr1~natty
Xu_R	kb9vqf: also, what is /opt/trinity/lib/libgsl.a considered? a devel file?
kb9vqf	it's a static library
kb9vqf	on Ubuntu that's a development file
Xu_R	hm... ok
Xu_R	does arts require it to function?
* Xu_R also wonders if arts can be built without making a static library
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Xu_R	woah o_o updating nightly again did something nice to my desktop
Xu_R	created lots of duplicate icons
Xu_R	that I can't get rid of...
Xu_R	this calls for a restart of the computer! and a hope that kdesudo works again
Xu_R	b/c I just did a full reinstall of it
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: A restart will clear it
kb9vqf	the icons that is
Xu_R	yup - restarted
Xu_R	kdesudo works
Xu_R	except calling kdesudo and nothing else still gives an error
kb9vqf	by itself you mean?
kb9vqf	just 'kdesudo' ?
kb9vqf	that gives an error here too
kb9vqf	a hang up technically
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: yes
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Fixed in SVN revision 1248417
kb9vqf	theoretically
Xu_R	now time to test ;)
kb9vqf	it won't be build for a while
kb9vqf	but you can cherry-pick the patch
kb9vqf	from SVN
kb9vqf	*built
Xu_R	I'll wait for the builds, there might be other goodies :)
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	I actually have a bit in the pipeline right now :-P
kb9vqf	the final move from kde3 to trinity
Xu_R	:D
kb9vqf	literally replacing the string 'kde3' with 'trinity'
kb9vqf	s/final/next-to-last/g
kb9vqf	there is one more that needs to be done sometime
kb9vqf	replacing the string 'KDE3' with 'Trinity'
kb9vqf	that's a bit nastier
kb9vqf	but I did it in the Debian/Ubuntu packaging :)(
kb9vqf	just not in the Trinity source itself
kb9vqf	anyway builds could take a couple days
Xu_R	ok
Xu_R	it'll make the Trinity stand out and the KDE3 begone ^__^
kb9vqf	yup
kb9vqf	and also fix the problems with adept and a handful of other apps that retained "kde3" in their innards
kb9vqf	oh, and there won't be /opt/trinity/lib/kde3 anymore
kb9vqf	only /opt/trinity/lib/trinity
kb9vqf	:)
Xu_R	:D
kb9vqf	but as I said...that's a big build batch...
kb9vqf	it could fail....
kb9vqf	and take a few days
Xu_R	hopefully not
* kb9vqf crosses fingers
Xu_R	I already replaced every "kde3" in packaging into "tde", so I might be a first-look
kb9vqf	keep working on getting preliminary RPM builds
Xu_R	yes... I need those.
kb9vqf	don't worry too much about which files go where
kb9vqf	just get something working
kb9vqf	then it can be tweaked later
* Xu_R notes that Ilya has been getting a bit noisier lately...
kb9vqf	yup
kb9vqf	and it's up to you to silence him with shiny new packages :)
kb9vqf	Although I note that every time I ask him for a patch he shuts up for a while
kb9vqf	and I never get the patch :-/
Xu_R	the udev "patch"? it was a bluff, truthfully.
Xu_R	it's actually a udev automount event
kb9vqf	well I wasn't far off with the "troll" bit then
Xu_R	that has nothing to do with integration :-\
Xu_R	yes, I noticed he was asking about udev rules and automounting in opensuse Factory mailing list
Xu_R	connected the two :-|
kb9vqf	Someone needs to build this http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Developers/KPowerAPI
kb9vqf	I'm not going to hack yet another hardware access library just to have the underlying specs change again
kb9vqf	if it's done it will be done RIGHT
kb9vqf	until then HAL will remain just a prereq
kb9vqf	*just remain
Xu_R	good idea...
kb9vqf	really, there's nothing wrong with HAL
kb9vqf	there never was
kb9vqf	it just didn't extend very well or something
kb9vqf	but Trinity doesn't use those new features...so...
kb9vqf	:)
Xu_R	:D
kb9vqf	we can sit on HAL for a while IMHO
Xu_R	HAL is still usable, so it's fine.
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	and there are more pressing concerns
kb9vqf	like getting the *bugs fixed* and the next release out the door... :))
Xu_R	a point very emphasized ;)
kb9vqf	(I'm considering the lack of RPM support a bug right now)
Xu_R	ok
kb9vqf	get the core system working at the very least
Xu_R	ok
kb9vqf	that is, the kde* modules
kb9vqf	and a handful of the apps
kb9vqf	amarok, kpowersave, etc.
kb9vqf	enough to get Ilya or others on board and they can help out with the rest
Xu_R	ok
kb9vqf	My time will be limited very shortly
Xu_R	time to speed up packaging...
Xu_R	ah, even more important then.
kb9vqf	so I will have to leave the project alone for a while
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	Hence the big push to get remaining problems fixed
Xu_R	ok
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: hm... looks like Ilya may have tried to do automounting without hal via mtab instead of udev rules
Xu_R	kb9vqf: http://slexy.org/view/s2NtukzskF
Xu_R	and now off to bed - night
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 505 filed by ogldelphi@mail.ru.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=505 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kgtk-qt3 3.5.13 nightly can't be used
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delight	Is trinity installable next to a kde4 installation ? e.g. does it use a .kde-trinity ? what about commands like konsole, konqueror etc. that are available in both versions
delight	?
kb9vqf	delight: Yes, you can install Trinity alongside KDE4
kb9vqf	it does use its own ~/.kde3 or ~/.trinity folder (depending on the version you install)
kb9vqf	Trinity will always launch its version of an application if it is available
kb9vqf	otherwise it will fall back to the KDE4 version
kb9vqf	Likewise, KDE4 will always launch its version of an application
delight	kb9vqf: thnx for the info ... sounds nice ... what about if you use the shell ?
kb9vqf	shell?
delight	bash .. .command line
kb9vqf	from within a trinity session the above is true
kb9vqf	if you use the shell outside a Trinity session then only the KDE4 versions of the apps are available
delight	say you are on the shell and want to call something like "kate sometext.txt"
kb9vqf	that will work
kb9vqf	If you are logged into a Trinity session, then it will load the Trinity version of kate with "sometext.txt" opened
kb9vqf	if not, it will load the KDE4 version of Kate
delight	sounds great ... I'll give it a shot on my debian box ;) ... got natty on my laptop ...
kb9vqf	OK :)
delight	thnx for the infos
kb9vqf	let us know if you run into problems
kb9vqf	np
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Piki	hi
delight	kb9vqf: a last one ... is trinity comming with amarok 1.4.x ?
kb9vqf	yes
delight	nice
kb9vqf	we maintain it actually
delight	wow
kb9vqf	nothing else like it out there :)
delight	true
delight	;)
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Piki	any android users?
Xu_R	kb9vqf: started on tdebase
Xu_R	but I'm not going to have much time this week
Xu_R	it's the week before school X_X
kb9vqf	Xu_R: OK
kb9vqf	I take it arts/kdelibs are working?
Xu_R	yes
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: hmm... on kde3 (and by extension, kde4) configure options, there is a --with-distribution or a -DKDE_DISTRIBUTION option to specify a distribution name...
Xu_R	anything like that for trinity?
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	well, I was pretty sure, hang on
kb9vqf	it used to exist in automake
kb9vqf	Xu_R It used to be "--with-distribution="Kubuntu (`lsb_release --codename --short`)" in Autotools
kb9vqf	I don't know if that feature was ported to CMake
Xu_R	hmm... looking at CMakeLists.txt, it wasn't.
kb9vqf	well, feel free to port it and send me a patch :-P
Xu_R	ok, when time comes around
kb9vqf	thanks
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simcop2387	has anyone tried getting kdirstat working with trinity desktop?
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kb9vqf	simcop2387: kdirstat is in our archive
simcop2387	cool, i've had a hell of a time keeping a statically built copy of it around and working.  there's nothing else like it and i couldn't get it ported up to kde4/qt4 to keep it otherwise
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	Qt4 is pretty limiting
kb9vqf	we have tried to absorb as many KDE3 apps as possible
kb9vqf	there are many out there that only have equivalents under Windows or Mac
simcop2387	i'm mostly after a bastard hybrid of kde3/kde4 these days.  i've grown to really like kwin4 and a few other kde4 apps, but hate plasma.
simcop2387	but if you guys keep the other stuff alive i could see myself switching back.  at 3.6 i'm likely to give it a really serious chance.
kb9vqf	good to know
kb9vqf	what do you like in kwin4 that we don't have?
simcop2387	honestly it's been so long that i don't remember anymore, but i'm getting a debian vm setup to try trinity right now.  (qt3 and hal are the biggest blockers for me, qt3 i can manage but hal gets in the way for me anymore)
kb9vqf	hal isn't that bad...
kb9vqf	it just sits in the background
simcop2387	it is when it's no longer supported by your dist and lots of packages in the package manager actively say they can't be installed if it is
Piki	hal crashes a lot on my system
* kb9vqf notes that in the current nightly builds we have basic compositing support, and work is being done to make Trinity more compositing aware
kb9vqf	ugh
kb9vqf	problem is there is no good replacement for HAL
kb9vqf	and writing one is going to take a while
Piki	kpowersave constantly loses the battery because of hal
simcop2387	at least for all of hal anyway.  there's udisks and upower for two small parts, nothing else that i know of
kb9vqf	I personally would like to see the kernel/udev stuff settle down more before writing a new library for it
kb9vqf	after all the upheval lately I don't trust udisks/upower to stay around in any semblance of a stable API for a while
kb9vqf	*upheval
kb9vqf	*upheavall
* kb9vqf just cannot type
kb9vqf	Also, I provide HAL for debian in the package archives
kb9vqf	it is bad packaging to conflict with it
kb9vqf	hal-trinity IIRC
simcop2387	my main dist isn't debian
kb9vqf	ubuntu?
kb9vqf	or something else :)
simcop2387	gentoo
kb9vqf	ah, ok
Piki	kb9vqf: i think bero had something other than hal working with kde3 back in 2008 and older, i know it wasn't udev/udisks/upower, you can ask him about it
kb9vqf	another obsolete API probably
kb9vqf	I really would like to wait and let things settle
Piki	maybe, but it worked
kb9vqf	so does HAL ;-)
Piki	not for me
Piki	it's always crashing here
kb9vqf	For the record, I would like to see it replaced as well
kb9vqf	but I have yet to see an actual viable alternative
Piki	what bero used sometimes forgot to unload my flash drive drivers, but it worked perfectly otherwise
kb9vqf	it would cost serious man-hours (read: $$$$) to produce a HAL replacement for Trinity at this point
kb9vqf	it involves some serious low level programming
kb9vqf	have you seen the APIs for udev?
kb9vqf	nasty stuff there
Piki	i don't even know how to program, so i couldn't look
kb9vqf	ah
kb9vqf	Like I said, I wish I could just replace HAL, but it is not trivial to do so
Piki	if something viable does come along, i'd be willing to test
Piki	but it would be awhile before i could develop for it
kb9vqf	and by the time I do, the upstream devs will probably come out with a new latest-and-greatest interface to replace the current upower one
kb9vqf	that's my main concern
Piki	at this point i wouldn't know where to start, but i'll start learning soon
kb9vqf	ok
simcop2387	from what i remember on the hal dev lists, it's biggest problem was that they had some architectural issues (i remember huge discussions every couple of months about if it should do mounting itself and how) and it being difficult to get any significant change into the presentation to things using it
kb9vqf	yes, and those are the same characteristics that made it easy to use on the app level
kb9vqf	the HAL code in Trinity is minimal
kb9vqf	when you start talking about using udev directly, the code will bloat like crazy
Piki	and believe me when i say: if i get into a project that i want/need something, i do it well
kb9vqf	needing a new library, properly designed APIs, etc.
Piki	anyways, i need to get going, early start tomorrow
kb9vqf	ok
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simcop2387	yea i don't remember kde doing huge amounts with it, just waiting for disks and maybe some power management stuff (my hardware back then didn't do acpi correctly so i didn't get to see that)
kb9vqf	yup
kb9vqf	very hard to "just do that" with udev
kb9vqf	you need a full fledged interface library
kb9vqf	which doesn't exist yet
simcop2387	i also seem to remember hal before udev itself being a bit of black magic to get events from the kernel, which i think lead to some of the strange looking things in it later on
simcop2387	moving targets suck :)
kb9vqf	yes, and udev may not be able to fully replace HAL as a result
kb9vqf	there was talk about using devicekit
kb9vqf	I just can't afford to do this unless someone wants to sponsor it
kb9vqf	I did write a spec for the new library: http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Developers/KPowerAPI
simcop2387	hmm
kb9vqf	personally I
kb9vqf	personally I'd rather someone else implemented that library, but I can dream, can't I? :-)
simcop2387	i may look into doing some of it, or sponsoring something since i've got a job finally.  all depends on my time
kb9vqf	ok, sounds good
kb9vqf	let me know what you decide
kb9vqf	when you decide it (no rush)
kb9vqf	from my perspective HAL isn't a major problem
simcop2387	i wil admit if i do anything it will likely not be done fast, since i've not looked at the stuff it'd involve
kb9vqf	oh and BTW we absorbed Qt3
kb9vqf	we are maintaining it
kb9vqf	and providing packages for it
simcop2387	yea i saw tghat
simcop2387	that*
simcop2387	fixed a few security issues with it too i think i read?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	so essentially you can look at Trinity as just sitting on top of XLib and friends :)
kb9vqf	qt3 is just a common shared toolkit between native Trinity apps
kb9vqf	we're also working on improving compatibility between our version of Qt3 and the "real" Qt4
kb9vqf	Qt3 is just so much faster than Qt4
simcop2387	i mostly see qt4 as a move in a good direction for the future since it'd reduce maintence on yourself (in theory) and because qt4 will supposidly support other display systems (like wayland and i think some work on direct framebuffer stuff)
kb9vqf	actually it makes our job 100x harder
kb9vqf	Qt4 is another stupid shifting target
kb9vqf	it's slow
kb9vqf	it's buggy
simcop2387	huh
kb9vqf	A lot of those irritating KDE4 bugs didn't come from KDE ;-)
kb9vqf	They came from underlying Qt4 problems
simcop2387	i hadn't seen much issues with it myself, but then again i've not tried to make a DE in it :)
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	KDE e.V. tried and you got KDE4
kb9vqf	that should speak for itself :)
kb9vqf	I wonder how Qt4/Qt5 will even perform under Wayland
kb9vqf	There is too much change right now in Linux; AFAIK a lot of companies are rightfully concerned about using Linux vs. more stable alternatives
simcop2387	i played with it a bit but nothing serious, that was a while ago
kb9vqf	honestly Wayland must provide an X11 compat API in order for it to succeed
simcop2387	wayland itself seemed to be faster on the open source drivers than Xorg was, which was a good thing, but it was way to slow at the time.
simcop2387	it already has that
kb9vqf	and we can always latch onto that :)
kb9vqf	If you want bling keep KDE4 and friends
simcop2387	that's the whole reason someone made it
kb9vqf	bling and productivity do not go together really
kb9vqf	IMNSHO :)
simcop2387	yea i've usually got 90% of it turned off, but things like yakuake do help :)
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	transparent Konsole windows and a handful of other enahcements :)
kb9vqf	*enhancements
kb9vqf	oh, and if you want to prove Qt4's inferiority for certain workloads, just try to access your KDE4 session via VNC/RDP/etc.
kb9vqf	you can't
kb9vqf	not in real time
kb9vqf	more like a bad slideshow
simcop2387	which vnc server? with x11vnc it works fine for me, but i'm not 100% sure that counts
kb9vqf	huh
kb9vqf	used to be quite bad
kb9vqf	is that on a LAN?
simcop2387	802.11g
kb9vqf	over the Internet AFAIK you can forget it
kb9vqf	maybe they finally fixed that then
kb9vqf	it took long enough
simcop2387	yea
kb9vqf	well, we're just one alternative of many--pick and choose what you like :)
kb9vqf	the general UI of Trinity is not going to change
kb9vqf	and I am not sure that a Qt4 port is even going to be usable
kb9vqf	last I tried (which was a few months ago) it was horridly slow
kb9vqf	this was part of the reason we absorbed Qt3
kb9vqf	if it isn't broken....
simcop2387	makes me wonder if it's some oddity in opengl drivers, i've seen them do strange things with x11vnc before
kb9vqf	anyway I need to go
simcop2387	have a good night
kb9vqf	you too :)
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 506 filed by ogldelphi@mail.ru.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=506 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Move kpdf from xpdf to libpoppler
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* strangelv worries. He relies rather heavily on kpdf
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* Xu_R wonders if kpdf will see any performance regression/improvement if moved to libpoppler
MutantTurkey	I think libpoppler is the answer :P
Xu_R	:P
MutantTurkey	well only because it's easy to link to and we don't have to do any work on that actual library
Xu_R	that does sound easy then.
MutantTurkey	same as with libwebkit vs khtml
MutantTurkey	if we use our outdated rendering, it won't continue to recive updates, unlike libpoppler which is continuing to get updates
MutantTurkey	that is how I see it
Xu_R	and that's probably a good idea...
MutantTurkey	yeah
MutantTurkey	and it has a qt wrapper already
MutantTurkey	i think kpdf currently just has the xpdf code directory copied into it and thats that
Xu_R	o.
MutantTurkey	lol
MutantTurkey	if I recall correctly
MutantTurkey	but xpdf is still updated also
MutantTurkey	last update was 8/16/11
MutantTurkey	but I don't think it's an ideal solution copying it in
Xu_R	I'm not sure which is better in the end... :| and we don't know what breakage new versions might bring
MutantTurkey	libpoppler at least has a large following and an consistant API
MutantTurkey	xpdf is not a library. so it's not really the best thing to do.
Xu_R	oic.
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: also sorry about saturday. there was a ton of flooding to do
MutantTurkey	to clean up
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: np... nobody showed up anyway XD we're going to have to try this again soon.
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: I have to finish up this packaging anyway. kb9vqf told me he considers my lack of RPM packages to test a blocker... so I've got to hurry ;P
MutantTurkey	yeah I consider that a major impediment
MutantTurkey	yeah I consider that a major impediment
MutantTurkey	someone I saw mentioned that "it's only packaged for ubuntu and debian" which is a major turn off for other distros
MutantTurkey	so having mre support would be greate
MutantTurkey	increases user base and legitness
Xu_R	yea...
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: close any bugs though?
Xu_R	haven't had the time to look at the bug list lately
Xu_R	been rushing to get stuff done in time for next week
Xu_R	(school starting)
MutantTurkey	yeah me too...
MutantTurkey	I still havent gotten books or anything yet xD
Xu_R	XD
MutantTurkey	I have tuesdays and thursdays off though
Xu_R	last minute panic :P
MutantTurkey	but I work those days anyway...
Xu_R	well, I have to run. got more stuff to do
Xu_R	later
MutantTurkey	okay bud
MutantTurkey	Seriously ubuntu is pissing me off. Every release they become less standardized
MutantTurkey	they are leaving the FOSS ecosystem rapidly
MutantTurkey	for example, Unity is the new interface. that's awesome! but it only compiles with ubuntu because they have 5000 zillion hacks and patches to make it work.
MutantTurkey	talk about pain in the arse.
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MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: you asked a question yesterday that went unanswered
MutantTurkey	you left, and then I looked and knew the answer.
MutantTurkey	do you recall the question?
KingSphinx	Um, no, I don't recall asking anything yesterday... most recent question I asked was whether or not TDE will have anything for GTK3 integration or not, and that was a few days ago.
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	that was it
MutantTurkey	while GTK3 is out. It is likely to take a few years to get it off the ground.
MutantTurkey	GTK2 is so firmly implanted and so few applications use GTK3 at this point
MutantTurkey	so answer
MutantTurkey	is yes but not yet
KingSphinx	Ah, okay then
KingSphinx	Guess it's a good thing that I'm thinking ahead, but yeah...
KingSphinx	Oh! I think I also asked whether updating to 11.10 would be the same as 10.10 -> 11.04, or if any additional steps would need to be taken (this is, of course, assuming there's no repos for Ocelot by that time)
KingSphinx	*Trinity repos, should've been clearer
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MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: sorry I had a meeting
MutantTurkey	you are always supposed to update to 10.10 -> 11.04 -> 11.10
MutantTurkey	I dont think you can skip over one
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KingSphinx	I know, I meant when 11.10 comes out, assuming there's no Ocelot Trinity packages by that time, will upgrading to Ocelot from Natty leave 3.5.12 intact?
MutantTurkey	It might not
MutantTurkey	Ubuntu has been messing around with their paths. I am sure that timothy will provide packages for it though.
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: can you speak on this?
kb9vqf	3.5.12?  not sure
MutantTurkey	what about from HEAD?
kb9vqf	new packages will definitely be provided from HEAD
kb9vqf	we have natty builds from HEAD already, ocelot will be next
kb9vqf	as a rule I don't build packages for Ubuntu until the first beta release
kb9vqf	of Ubuntu that is
kb9vqf	it costs a lot of $$$ to build packages unfortunately
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: ?
kb9vqf	electricity
MutantTurkey	ah
KingSphinx	Not even open-source is free :/
kb9vqf	free as in freedom, remember :)
MutantTurkey	not as in free beer.
MutantTurkey	though that is welcomed
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	consider that there are over 300 *source* packages that comprise Trinity
KingSphinx	Though, if I remember correctly, something was mentioned in the logs about OpenSUSE still having 3.5 developers?
kb9vqf	a full rebuild, even on the build farm, can take a couple of days
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: NOT DEVELOPERS.
MutantTurkey	they are maintainers.
MutantTurkey	they do no work whatsoever to develop it.
MutantTurkey	they are content with "leaving it as long as it builds"
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey is correct
MutantTurkey	which basically ensures that their kde3 branch is dry rotting away.
kb9vqf	bit rotting ;-)
kb9vqf	they tend to use nasty distro-specific hacks to get around build failures
KingSphinx	Wow, that sucks.
kb9vqf	yeah
kb9vqf	but that's all their users want right now
MutantTurkey	and they are jerks and troll our mailing list
kb9vqf	careful...
KingSphinx	Still sounds better than not being able to build at all though (*cough*Fedora*cough*)
MutantTurkey	:)
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Only one does that
kb9vqf	be very careful
MutantTurkey	:)
MutantTurkey	you are correct I apologize.
kb9vqf	it's OK :)
KingSphinx	Hmm... will there ever be a point that TDE will move past the 3.5.x naming or is it "frozen" there?
kb9vqf	it's frozen until the bugs in the bugtracker are under control
kb9vqf	3.6 should be almost completely bug free
kb9vqf	after all that is one of our selling points--fast and stable
MutantTurkey	:D
KingSphinx	because you don't want another KDE 4.0 on your hands... ;)
kb9vqf	exactly
kb9vqf	we're being somewhat careful about that :)
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kb9vqf	we have enterprise users that would be....unhappy if it crashed daily on a "stable" releaes
KingSphinx	I'd imagine so...
MutantTurkey	unhappy to say the least
MutantTurkey	just found out that my bandwidth on my vps isn't even capped
MutantTurkey	If i run over they just charge me only $1 every 100GB
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tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Component on bug 85 from kdemultimedia to ubuntu.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=85 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, UNCONFIRMED, Kmix for KDE4 conflicts with kmix for KDE3
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I am closing bug 106
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=106 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, UNCONFIRMED, Duplicated country choices on first run as user
MutantTurkey	I checked it, doesn't occur for me
kb9vqf	ok
MutantTurkey	mark as RESOLVED:WORKSFORME
MutantTurkey	or FIXED?
tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 106 from UNCONFIRMED to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=106 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, Duplicated country choices on first run as user
kb9vqf	that's fine
MutantTurkey	bug wrangler turkey
kb9vqf	in the future WORKSFORME may be better (just FYI)
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	bug 112
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=112 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kubuntu-desktop-kde3 installs konsole from KDE4 instead of konsole-kde3
MutantTurkey	I think we can also close
MutantTurkey	this is from 2009. another person configrmed this does happen. and It doesn't happen for me.
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: You did install the KDE4 konsole before testing, right?
kb9vqf	oh wait
kb9vqf	nevermind
MutantTurkey	:)
tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Component on bug 112 from other (any) to ubuntu.
tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 112 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=112 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, kubuntu-desktop-kde3 installs konsole from KDE4 instead of konsole-kde3
MutantTurkey	other way around
kb9vqf	yep
MutantTurkey	it would pull in konsole
MutantTurkey	fixed though
MutantTurkey	neptunia seemed to report alot of bugs.
kb9vqf	that's a good thing
kb9vqf	he was testing Trinity thoroughly
MutantTurkey	yep
MutantTurkey	bug 112 seems to be connected
MutantTurkey	to another bug 113
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=113 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, If konsole from KDE4 installed along KDE3 packages break out
MutantTurkey	basically, if Konsole(KDE4) was installed, you can't remove it because ksmserver-kd3 trys to rename /usr/bin/plasma
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTurkey	marked as fixed?
kb9vqf	that is due to a design defect in KDE4
MutantTurkey	we install to /opt/ now right?
kb9vqf	it may not be fixed
MutantTurkey	I will check
kb9vqf	it doesn't matter where Trinity is installed to
MutantTurkey	oh okay
kb9vqf	basically plasma is an ill behaved little brat and always tries to launch no matter what, execpt in a hand picked set of desktop environments
kb9vqf	(gnome, xfce, etc.
MutantTurkey	so unless it is marked to not launch it will?
kb9vqf	yep
MutantTurkey	how do you stop it?
kb9vqf	the only way I was able to fix thta was to redirect plasma to a wrapper script that checks for Trinity before launching the real plasma binary
kb9vqf	*that
MutantTurkey	ah
MutantTurkey	okay I gotta catch the train.
kb9vqf	the bug is still valid; installation/deinstallation should not be affected by what is installed or not installed
MutantTurkey	hopefully a few bugs rounded up a day and marked off will help
kb9vqf	but I don't know if the bug is still present :)
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	yes it will
kb9vqf	eventually though you will have to start actually *fixing* them :)
MutantTurkey	it wil make clearer which bugs are actually bugs...
MutantTurkey	I know :D
MutantTurkey	<excuse about working system>
kb9vqf	ok
MutantTurkey	http://www.mutantturkey.com/mirrorlog.html
MutantTurkey	started pulling from trinitydesktop.org also
kb9vqf	cool
MutantTurkey	I need to still setup that script to notify you tgoufg
MutantTurkey	though'
MutantTurkey	okay I'm off. will be back a bit later :D
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tidux	are builds x86-only at this point?
tidux	I tried adding the repositories to my Sheevaplug running Debian Squeeze armel
tidux	but APT couldn't find the armel repository
tidux	for Trinity
kb9vqf	x86/amd64
kb9vqf	I don't have arm builders online right now
tidux	ah
kb9vqf	(or even the ability to use them)
kb9vqf	it's on a to-do list :)
tidux	sheevaplugs are cheap ($99 plus S+H new) and they run Squeeze great from an SDHC
tidux	power's not all that great, so I figured Trinity would be a great way to get a decent desktop for VNC
tidux	as it is, I just use SSH or the serial port
kb9vqf	Trinity + ARM would be a good mix IMHO :)
kb9vqf	I just haven't had time to set up the (unfamiliar to me) ARM build ysstem
kb9vqf	*system
tidux	kb9vqf: eh, once you install Debian (which can be a headache depending on hardware) it's really no different than x86
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tidux	most things "just work" for building from source
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	but in my case I have no native ARM CPUs :)
kb9vqf	so then there's an emulator involved somewhere
kb9vqf	not to mention the interface to my build system and release manager
tidux	ah
tidux	just use basic command-line tools wherever possible and you should be good
kb9vqf	not that it isn't doable, just that it might take a bit for me to get it all running properly
kb9vqf	of course :)
tidux	the nice thing about ARM hardware is you can just leave it on
tidux	my sheevaplug draws ~6W
tidux	my Roku box draws ~2W
tidux	switch one 75-watt light bulb to a CFL and add five ARM servers to your LAN - you'll still come out ahead on power
kb9vqf	of course they have almost no power available for things like compiling or heavy duty computation...
kb9vqf	;-)
kb9vqf	but for embedded systems they are great
tidux	kb9vqf: bah, my Sheevaplug has a 1.2GHz CPU and 512MB RAM
kb9vqf	yeah, and how long will it take you to compile the Linux kernel on that?
tidux	quicker than my old Athlon XP
kb9vqf	but still slower than my Opteron class systems
kb9vqf	:)
tidux	well yeah
tidux	I hang out with people who still do software development on an 8088
kb9vqf	if they made one with a DVI output or PCI slot it would make a great mythtv frontend
tidux	so relative to old DOS hardware it's lightspeed
kb9vqf	yes
tidux	you don't want a Sheevaplug for MythTV
tidux	get a Trim Slice FitPC
tidux	comes with Tegra 2 for a CPU/GPU SoC, and HDMI output
tidux	or DVI-D
tidux	I forget which
kb9vqf	"GPU assisted video playback is not supported yet "
kb9vqf	personally I prefer a thin client with a PCI/E slot
* tidux shrugs
tidux	a Tegra 2 is still pretty powerful
kb9vqf	not enough for HDTV though :)
tidux	au contraire
kb9vqf	anyway, I am pulling this channel off topic
tidux	the FitPC can do 1080p output
kb9vqf	you can play 1080p with a Tegra?
tidux	yeah
kb9vqf	at 60Hz?
tidux	http://trimslice.com/web/
tidux	^ detailed specs are there
kb9vqf	ok, cool
tidux	anyways, how's Qt4 compatibility going?
tidux	I'd love to see SMPlayer look native in Trinity
kb9vqf	read the IRC archive :-P
tidux	where's that?
kb9vqf	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/irc/logs.html
kb9vqf	tidux: Basically, Qt4 is a shifting target, it's slow, it's buggy, and it's a royal pain
kb9vqf	not sure it's worth the compat layer ATM
kb9vqf	I am working on other ways to get the Trinity look+feel on Qt4 :)
kb9vqf	(for native Qt4 apps that is)
kb9vqf	In some respects, using Qt4 is like asking for a modern native Windows C++ application to be rewritten with an old version of Visual Basic
tidux	yeah, I don't even use Qt4 apps anymore - the only things on my system that use it are smplayer and VirtualBox
tidux	and I stopped using VirtualBox in favor of KVM
tidux	Amarok 2.... WHY.
kb9vqf	VirtualBox here is the only Qt4 app I use
kb9vqf	Becuase people are stupid and can't figure out how to use a powerful app like Amarok 1.4?
tidux	one question: will Trinity support other window managers?
kb9vqf	for example?
tidux	I'm one of the 15 or so Window Maker geeks left on the planet
kb9vqf	ah
tidux	and I found a KDE3-lookalike theme
tidux	and a systray dockapp
kb9vqf	well, it is fully NET compliant
kb9vqf	so you should be able to use any WM you want
tidux	heh nice
kb9vqf	For example I know the compiz WM works
kb9vqf	just be sure to run it with the --replace option, to replace kwin
tidux	ah
kb9vqf	or similar (WM may have a different name for the equivalent option)
kb9vqf	anyway, I need to get going
tidux	ok
kb9vqf	hopefully I will have time to look into ARM builds this year
tidux	cool
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MutantTurkey	o/
KingSphinx	I made a Kubuntu Hardy live CD just for kicks earlier... it's nice, but it really serves as a point as to how far Linux as a whole has come in just three years...
MutantTurkey	has it come far?
KingSphinx	Quite far, actually. Seems that while it did recognize my wireless card needed drivers, my display wouldn't go past 800x600 (it's 1280x1024 native)
MutantTurkey	true
MutantTurkey	our autodetect is getting more magical
KingSphinx	Not to mention it felt a bit sluggish even for being on a CD
MutantTurkey	I think the ecosystem is only getting slower though :|
KingSphinx	Trinity or Linux in general?
KingSphinx	Though one notable difference between Hardy and Kubuntu/Trinity is that Hardy included Dolphin as the default file browser... I honestly didn't know there even was a version of Dolphin for KDE3 O_o
MutantTurkey	linux
MutantTurkey	trinity remains fast
KingSphinx	Well, it can't be blazing-fast all the time... no matter how much we all wish it could be, the ecosystem has to slow down sometimes. Don't give up hope though, the Linux community will speed up again soon.
KingSphinx	Heck, we just had GNOME 3 not too long ago
KingSphinx	Keep in mind that the last time we had a real "new" GNOME was ten years ago...
KingSphinx	I think the next time we'll see a major pickup in the community is when KDE 5 is released. Even though I love Trinity, I'm honestly excited to see what KDE 5 will bring.
MutantTurkey	meh
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Qu4Z	I'm hoping KDE5 will be cool, but KDE seems to have moved to inhabit the slot that Gnome used to serve, with Gnome moving off into tabled territory
KingSphinx	And I think that Trinity could serve as a decent alternative for users spurned away by GNOME's radical shift
KingSphinx	Easy on resources, stable, offers good integration (not perfect, but eh) with GTK2 apps...
* KingSphinx feels like a salesperson in an infomercial... >_>;
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Qu4Z	I think Trinity could offer a decent alternative for any users :)
Qu4Z	... except users of Trinity, of course. That wouldn't make sense
Qu4Z	And probably tiling window managers. They're too cool for us
KingSphinx	I never quite understood tiling window managers. I mean, why go backwards in time technology-wise? (...yes, I realize I'm saying this while using what's technically an "outdated" DE)
KingSphinx	Wasn't Windows 1.0 the only version to do tiling?
Qu4Z	Well, some people even type source code into a text editor instead of dragging and connecting components like has been possible for years. There's no accounting for taste, I guess.
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 507 filed by m.f.janfranke@web.de.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=507 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, root-pw not accepted in [Alt]+[F2]
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KingSphinx	Whee, earthquakes.
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MutantTurkey	o/
MutantTurkey	hmmm
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calvin	o/
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Qu4Z	Anyone knowledgable around? I'm trying to build trinity on gentoo (there's no overlay or anything yet, as far as I know).
Qu4Z	I assume it has to be built against qt3, and the qt3support from qt4 doesn't cut it (or at least the patch doesn't apply)
Qu4Z	=> is there a pre-patched qt3 tarball around for download somewhere?
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calvin	Qu4Z: ?
calvin	you need to build our qt3
calvin	which is in our git repository
calvin	http://git.trinitydesktop.org
calvin	(sorry everyone is sleeping)
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MutantTu1key	finally emptied my inbox of 4000 messages...
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MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: where are the channel logs?
MutantTu1key	also, I see you've been doing krandr work, anything worth mentioning?
kb9vqf	http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/irc/logs.html
kb9vqf	yes, some cool stuff is now available
kb9vqf	screenshots forthcoming after builds are finished
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KingSphinx	Assuming the work on porting Qt3 to TQt is complete, do you think that TDE could be added to Ubuntu's official repos anytime soon? Or do they not want such an "outdated" desktop?
MutantTu1key	[Cit is
MutantTu1key	sorry
MutantTu1key	KingSphinx: I think there will be a greater chance once we release and have a larger following
MutantTu1key	I mean, repo's work on demand. if people want a program, its more likely to end up in the offical repos
KingSphinx	So it's just a "wait-and-see" thing?
MutantTu1key	frankly I would rather stay seperate, because that wayyou have more control
MutantTu1key	Tim was the kubuntu packager for some time so he is  more familiar with it than I am though
* KingSphinx is busy fixing some "broken" KDM themes
MutantTu1key	for kde3?
KingSphinx	Yep, the Kubuntu O2 theme points to a non-existant wallpaper, so I just had to edit kubuntu.xml to point to the right wallpaper
KingSphinx	Not that hard, really.
MutantTu1key	send that off to timothy
KingSphinx	Though I have yet to see if it actually worked or not... >_>;
MutantTu1key	._.
KingSphinx	Might as well see if it did, brb
MutantTu1key	well if it works, send it off to the ML.
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KingSphinx	It worked!
KingSphinx	Now I just have to see if the userlist variant has this same problem
MutantTu1key	good stuff
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tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Component on bug 507 from other (any) to kdebase.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=507 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, root-pw not accepted in [Alt]+[F2]
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MutantTu1key	connection problems?
KingSphinx	No, just have to log out to see if my fix worked. Also, the userlist variant is bug-free since it points to the default KDM background.
* KingSphinx actually feels useful for once, even if it was a minor bug :D
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: http://www.trinitydesktop.org/secret_whispers_0f_a_n3w_p0w3r.png
KingSphinx	:o A new KRandR?
kb9vqf	A better one
kb9vqf	it's not a replacement for the tray icon
kb9vqf	this one configures the entire system from KDM startup onwards
kb9vqf	it supports extended, not just cloned, desktops
kb9vqf	and it can apply the settings on the fly :)
MutantTu1key	thats awesome
kb9vqf	I think this puts us on the forefront of usability...no more Xorg files :))
MutantTu1key	I mean that is a seriously awesome improvement.
MutantTu1key	GO TIM! WOOOT WOOT. IT'S YOUR BIRTHDAY. LETS PARTY! /o/ \o/ \o\
kb9vqf	IIRC KDE4 can't do that either
kb9vqf	or gnome
kb9vqf	especially not the arbitrary monitor config
KingSphinx	I was just about to ask that
MutantTu1key	gnome has a terrible montor config.
KingSphinx	Especially now with GNOME 3
MutantTu1key	good randr support is important to alot of users.
* KingSphinx speaks from experience
MutantTu1key	especially power users.
kb9vqf	When I was testing this I was just having fun dragging my secondary monitor wherever I wanted it :)
kb9vqf	up, down, side to side...
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: can you switch primary monitors?
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTu1key	bam.
kb9vqf	see the primary monitor checkbbox?
KingSphinx	I mean, I don't have dual-monitors (desk is way too small), but this is still awesome to have.
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: haven't checked yet.
kb9vqf	I meant in the screenshot
MutantTu1key	oh i see the link now
MutantTu1key	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/secret_whispers_0f_a_n3w_p0w3r.png
KingSphinx	And yet more proof that "old" KDE is FAR from dead.
MutantTu1key	secret whispers of a new power....
MutantTu1key	in the screenshot I am only seeing one monitor
kb9vqf	that's because I only had one connected when I took it :-P
MutantTu1key	oh okay
kb9vqf	more monitors show up, trust me :)
MutantTu1key	I have a buddy like in the cubicle next to me using kde4.
MutantTu1key	I am going to ask him about his randr setup ina minute
KingSphinx	This is planned for the 3.5.13 release?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	it's in SVN and active
MutantTu1key	KingSphinx:... it is live.
MutantTu1key	frankly we are easily the most customisable system. and the fac that we have a good central hub for config is amazing
kb9vqf	the last kdebase builds are wrapping up now...you could even try it out yourself in a day or so
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: how long does a rebuild take?
kb9vqf	A full rebuild takes 3-4 days
kb9vqf	30GB of software here :)
MutantTu1key	but how often is that?
kb9vqf	once or twice a year
kb9vqf	I try to keep them to a minimum as they are quite costly
MutantTu1key	assuming you worked on just kdebase, you just rebuild kdebase
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	unless you changed core libraries ;-)
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: can you actually put a physical number on it? like is it obvious on the bill?
kb9vqf	It uses an extra 1-2KW of power continuously for the 3-4 days
kb9vqf	and ties up computing resources that would otherwise be used for business tasks or turned off
kb9vqf	but I don't mind :)
MutantTu1key	right
kb9vqf	I just try to keep full rebuilds to a minimu
kb9vqf	*minimum
MutantTu1key	yeah
MutantTu1key	30GB? holy snark
kb9vqf	Lucid,Maverick,Natty,Squeeze,x86,amd64
kb9vqf	over 400 builds required
MutantTu1key	righ
MutantTu1key	do you use a distributed build system?
MutantTu1key	like distcc?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	no
kb9vqf	clear as mud?
kb9vqf	Each builder in my farm builds its own job
kb9vqf	each hjob is distributed from a central manager
kb9vqf	*job
MutantTu1key	okay....
MutantTu1key	and what software do you use?
kb9vqf	QuickBuild
kb9vqf	it's a rebranded version of Launchpad
MutantTu1key	right
kb9vqf	the only one in existence AFAIK
MutantTu1key	thre only rebranded version or what?
kb9vqf	there are two running Launchpad instances that I am aware of: the official one run by Canonical, and mine
MutantTu1key	Oh. wow.
kb9vqf	it is invaulable for the package management systems
MutantTu1key	that good?
kb9vqf	I can organize the releases, move packages between archives
MutantTu1key	Do you keep snyced with their updates?
kb9vqf	it won't let me do Bad Things
kb9vqf	when neccessary
MutantTu1key	thats awesome.
kb9vqf	anyway, I'm not going to be able to do too much more for this release
kb9vqf	so any help you can give with the bugs would be greatly appreciated
kb9vqf	time is quite limited here
MutantTu1key	I am going to give a good danged attempt.
MutantTu1key	I have time opening up really soon
MutantTu1key	and alot of it.
kb9vqf	good thing
kb9vqf	:)
MutantTu1key	so I can start tackling issues
kb9vqf	I'll still be here to coordinate the release, but I probably won't be committing much of anything to SVN of my own creation
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	I think once the bugs are fixed we should be good to go
MutantTu1key	so now our goal is just bug triage/fixing/smashing etc
kb9vqf	yep
MutantTu1key	and getting Xu_R to package :P
kb9vqf	I noticed quite a few RPM packages lately on the mailing list
kb9vqf	seems people got fed up with the delay
kb9vqf	could yo uspearhead an effort to get their build control files into our tde-packaging GIT repoistory?
* kb9vqf cannot type again
kb9vqf	There are packages for Mandriva and RedHat as far as I know
KingSphinx	There's RPMs now? Not that it matters now, since I switched back to Kubuntu, but yeah...
kb9vqf	let me get the mailing list links...
MutantTu1key	rephrase - could I spearhead the effort to get build control fields into our tde-packaging git repository
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: ok
MutantTu1key	links please :)
kb9vqf	here's mandriva: http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::1233
kb9vqf	and yes, typos corrected, that is what I meant to say :)
kb9vqf	everything required to build the RPMs (except for the Trinity source files themselves) should go into GIT
MutantTu1key	for some reason I don't get triinty-users mail
MutantTu1key	though I just recenly singed up. has it been quiet? I haven't seen anything
kb9vqf	and here's RHEL: http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::1288
MutantTu1key	also, aren't mandrivia and RHEL related?
kb9vqf	I have no idea, sorry
Xu_R	MutantTulkey: no
Xu_R	they aren't.
MutantTu1key	Xu_R: no they definitely are.
kb9vqf	MutantTu1key: Check your spam bin
Xu_R	MutantTulkey: they aren
KingSphinx	Will these RHEL RPMs install correctly in Fedora or is that pesky /opt rule still a problem?
kb9vqf	MutantTu1key: please keep them separate in GIT
Xu_R	't... not for a very long time
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: not in there.
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: yes
kb9vqf	MutantTu1key: Email?
MutantTu1key	Xu_R: I meant they are related
MutantTu1key	like in family
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: mutantturkey@gmail.com
Xu_R	KingSphinx: they'll probably install in Fedora... just don't expect any love from fedora people
MutantTu1key	the same way that debian/ubuntu
Xu_R	MutantTulkey: no.
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kb9vqf	I want them separate in GIT
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: I am going to privately email those people and expalin them
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: yes of course.
kb9vqf	usually each distro has little tweaks they like to apply
Xu_R	KingSphinx: I would bet that it wasn't run through rpmlint - it would throw up big no-opt errors.
MutantTu1key	should I instruct them to email you o get an aaccount?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	and I don't care about no-/opt
kb9vqf	personally
kb9vqf	I use /opt all the time
MutantTu1key	opt is actually a good thing for now I think
kb9vqf	Google even uses /opt
MutantTu1key	google uses opt because they don't want to conform.
MutantTu1key	opt is nice because you can have your own little try
MutantTu1key	tree
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: those email addresses are blanked out on the ML....
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kb9vqf	I like it personally--I know it isn't standard, but it would be neat if all non-official repoistories installed into /opt :)
MutantTu1key	@...
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	let me get them from my archive
MutantTu1key	can you PM their emails?
MutantTu1key	I will email them then I have to get to work
Xu_R	francois.andriot@free.fr for REDHAT and Fedora
Xu_R	...I can't find the mandriva maint email DX
kb9vqf	MutantTu1key: You are not registered on trinity-users
kb9vqf	I signed you up though :)
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: was thier a double confirmation?
MutantTu1key	oaky good
Xu_R	MutantTulkey: ah, tmw@autotrain.org for Mandriva.
MutantTu1key	I know i applied and then must have just forgotten to go thrugh with it
Xu_R	found it~~
MutantTu1key	Xu_R: thanks
kb9vqf	yep, that's what it looks like
kb9vqf	thanks for helping out here; I want those files in GIT but have no time to get them from the authors :-/
kb9vqf	also make sure that they understand the licensing...open source licenses only...
kb9vqf	BSD/GPL perferred
kb9vqf	or even public domain :)(
MutantTu1key	WTFPL
Xu_R	kb9vqf: ah, crap. i've gotten stuck in dbus-1-tqt...
Xu_R	http://slexy.org/view/s2AA2Nrs62
* Xu_R was just stopping in to check on builds
* Xu_R will be back soon - brb
kb9vqf	MutantTu1key: Regarding bug 507, when kdesudo is installed it shuts down kdesu
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=507 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, root-pw not accepted in [Alt]+[F2]
kb9vqf	kdesu accepts the root password
kb9vqf	kdesudo does not
kb9vqf	so it's not a bug in Trinity, it's a bug in which packages he has installed :)
MutantTu1key	I am confused about that
MutantTu1key	oh
MutantTu1key	that makes sense
MutantTu1key	kdesu is su'ing to become the super user
MutantTu1key	kdesudo uses the users password
MutantTu1key	mark it as closed?
kb9vqf	after gently explaining that :)
kb9vqf	closed/invalid
kb9vqf	also be sure to mention that removing kdesudo-trinity will fix the "problem"
kb9vqf	Xu_R: WOW, your compiler rules are STRICT!!!
Xu_R	kb9vqf: yea.......... blame rpmlint. again. I'm not going to get any official support without that. DX
kb9vqf	That's fine, you will probably help fix some corner case crashes
Xu_R	ok, now I really gotta run. bbiab
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: don't you use -Werr?
MutantTu1key	if that is what you meant by compiler rules
kb9vqf	Mine never threw errors on invalid returns
MutantTu1key	ah
MutantTu1key	Hey,
MutantTu1key	I am part of the Trinity Desktop team working with Timothy Pearson. As
MutantTu1key	we prepare for the next release we are looking for people who are
MutantTu1key	packaging Trinity currently to start using our GIT repository. We
MutantTu1key	currently have a repository that hosts all of the build related files
MutantTu1key	for each distro and we want to make this a central hub for packagers.
MutantTu1key	Timothy Pearson has asked me to spearhead this task and so I am
MutantTu1key	reaching out to everyone for help. So what does this mean for you?
MutantTu1key	just uploading your latest package building scripts ( I am unfamiliar
MutantTu1key	with what Mandriva uses to do so ) to our tde-packaging repository.
MutantTu1key	Another thing we would like you to do is join the trinity-devel
MutantTu1key	mailing list, so that you can keep in touch with our latest
MutantTu1key	developments.
MutantTu1key	If you are interested in helping out, email me back and we can get you
MutantTu1key	setup with a user for the GIT repository.
MutantTu1key	Hoping to have you on board,
MutantTu1key	oh so sorry
MutantTu1key	did that go through? :|
MutantTu1key	I apologize.
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Channel flooding isn't nice...
kb9vqf	distro should be distribution
MutantTu1key	I accidentaly pasted it.
kb9vqf	also mention that the Trinity source files (e.g. the 3.5.12 files or anything from our SVN tree) should NOT be uploaded to GIT
MutantTu1key	gah I alreadry sent it by accident also.
kb9vqf	packaging control files and distribution specific patches only
MutantTu1key	this just went from bad to terrible.
kb9vqf	oh well
kb9vqf	wait and see if you get a response
MutantTu1key	hopefully in my follow up email I can clarify
kb9vqf	then clarify
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTu1key	ok
KingSphinx	Hey, is there a way to get Trinity to let me access my Windows partition? It's always been telling me "Access denied" when I try to access it through Konqueror.
KingSphinx	The only way I can access it is if I mount it in GNOME first.
kb9vqf	launch konqueror as root via kdesudo
kb9vqf	there are some limits on mounting NTFS partitions
kb9vqf	gnome may override them somehow, but if they do they are violating the spirit of the limitation, which is designed to prevent corruption of NTFS paritions by ordinary users
kb9vqf	note: I have not tried to get at NTFS partitions in a while, so I can't help much
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: we should get a F.A.Q. together as well as a wiki page explaining some common stuff.
MutantTu1key	I can start piecing it together.
kb9vqf	sounds good to me
kb9vqf	puting it on the Wiki is a good idea
kb9vqf	*putting
MutantTu1key	yeah
kb9vqf	I'm a bit too close to the project to know what good questions would be, but I can provide the answers if you want to throw a list of questions on the Wiki
MutantTu1key	and then we should have distro specific wiki pages.
MutantTu1key	Ok emails sent to franicos also.
kb9vqf	you have a wiki account, correct?
kb9vqf	all of this should go into the documentation web
MutantTu1key	I do
MutantTu1key	I can't work right now.
MutantTu1key	I have to go back to my useless php debugging job....
MutantTu1key	but I emailed them so hopefully they will be interested.
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	thanks
kb9vqf	Xu_R: fixed in SVN revision r1249343
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: frankly I am happy we are using CMake partially
MutantTu1key	it is much cleaner than the autohell
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	I never was able to get Autotools to work for arts/kdelibs/kdebase
kb9vqf	something very subtle broke in there
MutantTu1key	good.
kb9vqf	no, it's not good, but fortunately CMake works instead :)
MutantTu1key	exactly
KingSphinx	Did the port of Qt3 to TQt help with moving to CMake over Autotools?
MutantTu1key	wasn't effected.
MutantTu1key	at least I thought it wasn't
kb9vqf	nope, didn't help at all
kb9vqf	TQt will allow Trinity to do some cool things later on
kb9vqf	it was a major under-the-hood alteration that users and even some developers shouldn't even see :)
MutantTu1key	:D
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KingSphinx	Cool things? Like that new KRandR that no other desktop has?
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MutantTu1key	KingSphinux
MutantTu1key	more like things that will reduce bitrot
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MutantTu1key	KingSphinx:
MutantTu1key	not cool things, more like things that will help keep trinity maintainable in the years to come
KingSphinx	Keep it from falling behind, so to speak?
MutantTu1key	well yes.
MutantTu1key	and just general maintainabilty
MutantTu1key	for example CMake is easier to deal with than automake
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MutantTu1key	tim tim tim!
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf:
MutantTu1key	email response from Francois. of RHEL
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MutantTu1key	off to catch the train! kb9vqf: I replied to francois and told him to email you to setup a  git account.
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: ^__^ works, thanks!
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: hey
MutantTurkey	about to got to work - but I got emails back from both people.
MutantTurkey	I told them both to email you to get git account setup
MutantTurkey	so once they do that let me know ;)
MutantTurkey	then we should be good to go
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MutantTurkey	the rains a-coming
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: did they email you yet?
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* TokRa hails MutantTurkey
user____	Hi!
user____	How is going 3.13?
user____	Is there a date to release??
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kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Only francois
kb9vqf	I responded to him last night
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Jota	Is there a date to release 3.13??
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kb9vqf	Jota: Soon :)
kb9vqf	try the nightly builds if you use Debian or Ubuntu
kb9vqf	they will be very close to the finished product
Jota	Can the night builds install via apt-get??
kb9vqf	yes
Jota	I have a spare squeeze install I can use to test
kb9vqf	sounds good
kb9vqf	we'd like to know about bugs before 3.5.13 is released ;-)
Jota	what are the repositories for apt?? are there some instrutions?
kb9vqf	deb http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-nightly-build-dependencies/ubuntu squeeze main
kb9vqf	deb-src http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-nightly-build-dependencies/ubuntu squeeze main
kb9vqf	deb http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-nightly-builds/ubuntu squeeze main
kb9vqf	deb-src http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-nightly-builds/ubuntu squeeze main
kb9vqf	no instructions yet; put those lines in your /etc/apt/sources.list file and run apt-get update && apt-get upgrade
Jota	ok
Jota	will try tonight
kb9vqf	let us know if you run into any problems :)
Jota	hope there's no bugs  ;-)
Jota	ah... in that squeeze install, I have a "old" kde 3.10 - from lenny... do I need to first delete it?
kb9vqf	I have absolutely no idea, sorry
kb9vqf	never tried it
kb9vqf	in theory it should be OK
kb9vqf	but it would also be the first place I would put blame if Trinity malfunctioned in any way ;-)
Jota	ahah I see...
Jota	I will delete old kde first
Jota	to be sure
Jota	ok, thanks and bye for now!
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KingSphinx	Are nightly builds literally built nightly or is it just a technical term for pre-release stuff?
Xu_R	literally built nightly.
Xu_R	kb9vqf: ps, won't be able to work on packaging this weekend. got too much to do... srry.
KingSphinx	Ah... that had bugged me for a while. Sorry if that's an obvious question
Xu_R	np
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MutantTurkey	o/
MutantTurkey	bug 1
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=1 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Landscape PDF printed as portrait (and truncated)
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windowshasyou	Is there a more up to date repo for gentoo ebuilds? The sergi repo doesn't seem to have been updated in a month or so now.
kb9vqf	not that I know of
kb9vqf	and I have not heard from Serghei in quite a while
windowshasyou	alright. Thanks for answering.
KingSphinx	Can't you just build Trinity from that source tarball if necessary?
windowshasyou	KingSphinx: I can. I thought I'd ask first. I'm modifying sergis ebuilds to install to lib64 and changing the keywords first
Qu4Z	windowshasyou: As a fellow gentoo user, I'm interested in seeing how you get on.
Qu4Z	I'm currently trying to build the svn version, which is going okay for the most part, but I only have so much time
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windowshasyou	Qu4Z: I nearly had it on my last attempt. The problem I ran into was that the kgreet plugin for kdm apparently got lost.
windowshasyou	gave up after a day or so
windowshasyou	this was 4 months ago
windowshasyou	I figured I'd try it again
windowshasyou	nothing else to do with the way the economy is
Qu4Z	Was that autotools version or cmake version?
Qu4Z	Autotools, I'd guess, if you wanted a usable desktop :P
windowshasyou	cmake
windowshasyou	my mistake at the time
KingSphinx	Was 3.5.12 built with CMake or Autotools?
Qu4Z	Oh? Okay. Yeah, fair enough. I'm doing CMake now, so that'll be interesting.
KingSphinx	Also, I can't wait for 3.5.13. It's so close to release!
Qu4Z	:) Yeah.
* KingSphinx would use Nightly, but I kinda value having a working system. :P
Qu4Z	I already have a working system :) It's called screen :P
windowshasyou	lol
windowshasyou	so I have to uninstall all of kde4 again because of conflicts with qt. I can't say that makes me sad
Qu4Z	In *theory* Trinity is compatible with kde4, lol
windowshasyou	I'm waiting for that qt4 wrapper to appear
KingSphinx	It is with Ubuntu, in my experience.
Qu4Z	Oh, right. That's probably more being unable to install qt4 and qt3 side-by-side, yeah?
windowshasyou	well you guys have aptitude for the package manager. portage has acting handicapped lately
windowshasyou	yep
windowshasyou	ever since they started doing away with slots...
Qu4Z	I only recently switched back to Gentoo. Are they doing away with slots?
Qu4Z	That seems... silly
windowshasyou	Qu4Z: They are trying to.
windowshasyou	They are also handicapping alot of other things "for the good of the users"
Qu4Z	:/
Qu4Z	Yeah, I have heard that it's been going downhill lately
windowshasyou	they were trying to make python bindings mandatory for kde as well
Qu4Z	o_O
windowshasyou	got a little user revolt over that
KingSphinx	Seriously? Gentoo dumbing itself down?
Qu4Z	Have they talked to any of their users?
Qu4Z	Do they even know what their userbase looks like? o_O
KingSphinx	I thought the entire point of Gentoo was to provide as much control over the system as possible?
windowshasyou	Qu4Z: you could call it talking... in a way. They slam everyone that says people don't need that kind of hand holding
KingSphinx	If people want their hand held, they don't need to be using Gentoo.
windowshasyou	exactly
windowshasyou	The gentoo devs can't understand why funtoo is gaining traction now
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windowshasyou	since the founder of gentoo created that and decided to keep things as minimal as possible.
Qu4Z	Exactly. It seems like customisability is one of the main features of gentoo. Abandoning that to go after *buntu's market share seems silly
KingSphinx	While I personally don't care for Gentoo (I just want something to work), I understand its purpose and why people use it. Abandoning that base to go for "derp simplicity! one-click install!" is a death trap, IMO.
Qu4Z	KingSphinx: I like Gentoo 'cause I don't have to install cups.
windowshasyou	Qu4Z: I remember asking in gentoo-kde if they were going to consider adding TDE to portage at some point... I was basically laughed at and kicked from the channel.
Qu4Z	:/
Qu4Z	I hadn't even looked at funtoo
Qu4Z	It looks interesting, though
windowshasyou	I've been looking at it and LFS
windowshasyou	again*
KingSphinx	Gentoo seems to increasingly be becoming the "sekkret haxx0r club!!11!!1oneone" of Linux, judging from the userbase.
Qu4Z	Ah, yeah. LFS does look fun, but I do like portage
windowshasyou	KingSphinx: sure seems that way... got alot of script kiddies in the channels anymore
KingSphinx	IMO, Ubuntu's really no more restricted than any other version of Linux other than root being locked (and even then, sudo's got you covered). Those that deride Ubuntu users (or any other "easy-to-use") just because they didn't go through hours of compiling utils/kernel/programs are one of the big reasons Linux has such a negative perception in the public eye.
KingSphinx	</rant>
Qu4Z	I have no problem with Ubuntu. It's nice enough. It's just not as customisable (or I don't know how to customise it) without manually building my packages
KingSphinx	Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. Seen way too much animosity between the two camps on the Internet. Sad, really, since it's all Linux...
Qu4Z	As I understand it (and feel free to correct me) if my *buntu maintainer decides that vim has been compiled with X and cups support, then there's no way for me to say "Actually, I don't have X on this box. Just install it without X support"
Qu4Z	Fair enough.
Qu4Z	I have no animosity against it. I recommend it to people all the time :) (Less now, I don't much like unity)
Qu4Z	But it's not for me.
windowshasyou	nor I.
KingSphinx	If you use Gentoo, that's great... nay, awesome, really, but I can't stand it when people flame others just because of the distro they use. Not implicating you (you're very nice), just saying I've seen enough hate online and I'm sick of it is all. Can't Linux just get along?
Qu4Z	Yeah, I know. Distro-wars are kinda pointless :/
KingSphinx	And Qu4Z, I'm not much of a fan of Unity either :P
KingSphinx	It works fine on my machine, it's just not quite my cup of tea.
Qu4Z	:) I suppose that's not surprising in #trinity-desktop lol
Qu4Z	Also, dammit. I just finished installing Gentoo on my new computer. Now I want to install funtoo instead :P
kb9vqf	#trinity-desktop....for all those I-hate-smartphone-desktops misfits :)
windowshasyou	Qu4Z: lol
KingSphinx	Did you remember to make your /home and /root separate?
Qu4Z	/home and / you mean?
KingSphinx	Yeah, that's what I meant. >_>;
* kb9vqf notes that all distributions are welcome here...we just may not have much knowledge about them yet ;-)
Qu4Z	All good :) Yeah. I actually have all my data under /data on a separate drive. Then I symlink in ~/pics ~/video ~/music and ~/projects
KingSphinx	I know, I welcome all kinds as well, that rant was just something I've wanted to get off my chest for a while.
windowshasyou	Qu4Z: BTW, the final straw for me with the gentoo-kde4 people is when they started talking about making mono mandatory
Qu4Z	It's nice to start with a clean set of .* dirs
Qu4Z	windowshasyou: Seriously? That's some rubbish right there.
KingSphinx	I actually don't mind Mono, but mandatory? That's stupid.
windowshasyou	seriously
Qu4Z	I like C# as a language, it's fairly decent. I sometimes install mono apps, but... requiring it seems a bit silly.
windowshasyou	to me, mono is a big no no. The whole reason for me using Linux is to avoid MS stuff.
windowshasyou	I don't need something installed that potentially gives MS a reason to mess with my systems
Qu4Z	Yeah, fair enough. And I support that. Practicality dictates I install mono sometimes but the point of Gentoo for me is being configurable
KingSphinx	What exactly is so bad about Mono? I've never understood that
Qu4Z	KingSphinx: Speculation that it's a trap by MS
kb9vqf	that is the KDE4 mentality in a nutshell...require as many bloated backend libraries as possible, all to make the frontend code overly simple
windowshasyou	KingSphinx: Mono is a derivative of an MS language. Its one of the things that came out of the Novell/MS alliance
Qu4Z	Yeah. I hope we're making an effort to debloat KDE3, or at least keep it as debloated as possible.
windowshasyou	and now they have the founder of gnome, that miguel whatever hooked on it.
KingSphinx	embrace, extend, extinguish at work?
kb9vqf	yep, we're very close to the base system libraries right now :)
windowshasyou	pretty much. I've always thought of it as a control via proxy technique
kb9vqf	I think the worst thing we use is HAL
windowshasyou	last time I tried to get it all going, it didn't require hal
Qu4Z	I tried to install qt3 with --system-libjpeg --system-libmng --system-libpng etc, but it didn't like that very much :/
windowshasyou	has it been reinstated?
KingSphinx	Any chance of converting to UDisks/UPower?
kb9vqf	It doesn't technically NEED hal, but udisks/upower have a horrid API
kb9vqf	so unless someone sponsors the work probably not anytime soon
KingSphinx	Ah
Qu4Z	Sponsors or does, presumably.
kb9vqf	there was a discussion on this channel about that not too long ago :)
KingSphinx	Well, I've never really noticed a difference between the two...
kb9vqf	and yes, either one is fine :)
kb9vqf	On the programming end there is a big difference
windowshasyou	I don't care much if udisks works with TDE. I just want a desktop that doesn't keep a dual core at 25 percent usage constatly
Qu4Z	Like I said, I'm trying to get the building going on my box at the moment. Once that's working I should at least be able to provide testing/bug reports
windowshasyou	and makes my gpu hot enough to fry eggs
kb9vqf	yep
Qu4Z	Hopefully do some dev work, too, but it'd be my first time contributing to any project this big.
kb9vqf	I'm idling at < 5% CPU now :)
KingSphinx	My graphics card idles at 70 degrees Celcius.
windowshasyou	mine is supposed to idle at 40 C
kb9vqf	it's not idle then :-P
windowshasyou	and it does when I'm using kde3 or xfce4
windowshasyou	when kde4 is running, its way higher than that
windowshasyou	even with desktop effects turned off
KingSphinx	Then again, I think the fan might be dead on my card. For a while after I figured out the fan was unplugged, it idled at 60, but a few months later, it's back to 70.
KingSphinx	Fortunately, it never goes above 80, even after playing Team Fortress 2 maxed out.
kb9vqf	the way I look at it this project is here as a sort of technical opposite to KDE4/Windows 8/Gnome 3/Apple iOS
kb9vqf	if you want the bling use one of those ;-)
KingSphinx	A desktop environment for actual desktops?
kb9vqf	perish the thought
windowshasyou	what a concept...
KingSphinx	I still wish KDE4 could've managed to port Kicker over, then it'd be a bit more "desktop-like"
kb9vqf	but they don't *want* the desktop concept
kb9vqf	and it shows everywhere
windowshasyou	maybe kde 5 will work out better
kb9vqf	I don't even like using any KDE4 *apps*
kb9vqf	they are light years behind equivalent Windows apps
Qu4Z	My main concern with KDE4 is that everything is basically apps
Qu4Z	Well, that and the resource usage
KingSphinx	The whole "semantic desktop" concept is cool and all, but I just want a functional desktop. :)
kb9vqf	apps instead of applications
Qu4Z	Yeah
kb9vqf	I like applications :)
Qu4Z	Everything is for one purpose only, and doesn't integrate with anything else
kb9vqf	you know, those things you can sit down with and accomplish an entire workflow with only one or two?
kb9vqf	:)
Qu4Z	I mean, I know the unix philosophy is everything should only do one thing, but A) it should do it well, and B) the idea is you can compose thigns
kb9vqf	you need a very good desktop to glue all those splinters together
Qu4Z	That's why I love KParts and KIO
kb9vqf	a smartphone UI can't efficently paste all the pieces back together
Qu4Z	I'm not suggesting we should have different apps for everything. That works for unix commands, but...
KingSphinx	Plasma tries to do everything for the desktop, with mixed results at best.
windowshasyou	speaking of KIO, I wonder if TDE Kio has been patched to work with glibc 2.14
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	what was the problem?
windowshasyou	kb9vqf: upstream deleted a ton of old code and rearranged some stuff
KingSphinx	KDE4 got rid of KIO slaves?
Qu4Z	KingSphinx: No, but somehow it feels like it
kb9vqf	upstream?
kb9vqf	I don't get it
windowshasyou	it broke alot of stuff including all versions of kde 4 till 4
kb9vqf	what is failing in TDE?
windowshasyou	4.7.0
windowshasyou	kb9vqf: nothing yet. I'm just wondering if KIO has been patched for it.
kb9vqf	well, no
kb9vqf	if nothing is broken then no patches are needed
Qu4Z	KingSphinx: Somehow, in KDE3 it always felt like I could fire up an image editor, get the open file dialog, paste in a url, and it'd open it just fine.
windowshasyou	If not, I'll be sending a patch upstream
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	send it to the trinity-devel mailing list
kb9vqf	it will get trapped and we can apply it
windowshasyou	alright.
windowshasyou	specifically it was the nfs kio that broke
windowshasyou	pretty useless for some people, but an aggravation if you are running the latest glibc
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	I'd be glad to look at the patch
kb9vqf	when will you be able to send it
kb9vqf	?
windowshasyou	If it bombs out, I'll write one and send it probably tomorrow
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	I'll keep an eye out for it :)
kb9vqf	IIRC there was some problem with nfs and possibly fish now that you mention it
kb9vqf	so I will see if your patch can be applied to other kioslaves
windowshasyou	sounds good to me
kb9vqf	I am on glibc 2.12 so I haven't run into it myself yet
kb9vqf	well , that and 2.13
Qu4Z	Yeah, I remember fish being broken.
windowshasyou	I know that qt3 will have to be patched if gcc 4.6 or later becomes the standard
kb9vqf	we maintain Qt3
kb9vqf	and it has been patched already
kb9vqf	it compiles quite nicely :)
windowshasyou	oh right on.
Qu4Z	I built it with 4.6.something yesterday, iirc
Qu4Z	Actually, not sure what version I have installed, but the latest ~amd64 Gentoo version, anyway
kb9vqf	Absorbing Qt3 has allowed Trinity to fix some age-old bugs
kb9vqf	because we can now alter the Qt3 API slightly :)
windowshasyou	does it finally support threads?
kb9vqf	I have no idea
windowshasyou	I know the last trolltech release broke when trying to compile with it.
kb9vqf	It probably does
kb9vqf	you'd have to try though
kb9vqf	I don't remember OTOH if Ubuntu enabled threading
kb9vqf	I seem to remember they did
* kb9vqf is referring to the Debian package build control files
windowshasyou	wow... It just finished compiling with threading enabled... I was half expecting it to bomb out.
Qu4Z	windowshasyou: It works
Qu4Z	Just don't try using -system-lib<various image formats>
windowshasyou	lol I used the safe defaults.
windowshasyou	I don't want to be up half the night recompiling because it doesn't like the system libs
Qu4Z	Fair enough :) From memory there were a couple of things I wanted that I manually enabled.
Qu4Z	Hah, yeah.
kb9vqf	There have been a lot of improvements in our Qt3 version :)
kb9vqf	This is not your grandpa's KDE3 desktop or libraries
kb9vqf	:)
windowshasyou	kb9vqf: I can see that. I think its great. Some group is finally listening to the complaints and doing something about it.
windowshasyou	and not slamming people
kb9vqf	We aim to please
windowshasyou	other groups could take lessons from you on that.
* kb9vqf is embarrased :)
kb9vqf	I keep hoping Linux will straighten out
kb9vqf	maybe once the smartphone craze dies down a bit
windowshasyou	likewise.
KingSphinx	You have Android to blame. It's a double-edged sword...
Qu4Z	Man... I wanna head home from work and compile things now >_<
Qu4Z	Can I post build errors here and get help? :)
kb9vqf	Of course
kb9vqf	if we're around that is
Qu4Z	I had some issue building kdelibs yesterday, but can't remember what.
kb9vqf	be sure to use pastebin
Qu4Z	Of course :) I was more asking whether this was also an appropriate venue for support
kb9vqf	yes it is
Qu4Z	Hah, yeah.  I'll try not to spam up the chat more than I already do by talking excessively :P
kb9vqf	this is the general anything-related-to-the-Trinity-desktop channel
Qu4Z	Neat :)
kb9vqf	talk about anything you like
Qu4Z	Oh, random point: How do I get cmake to tell me what options are available?
Qu4Z	It took a bit of guessing before I got to -DWITH_CUPS=OFF
kb9vqf	I don't know if any way other than looking in the CMakeLists.txt files
windowshasyou	thats the only way I know of
kb9vqf	in fact, you could search for all CMakeLists.txt files that contain "WITH_"
Qu4Z	Yeah, now that I know it's WITH_ that helps a lot
kb9vqf	because all Trinity options start with WITH_
Qu4Z	Okay, that's cool
kb9vqf	np
Qu4Z	Except -DUSE_QT3
kb9vqf	BTW I keep an eye on things here usually so that I can tell if we are ticking off our userbase or making them happy ;-)
kb9vqf	same with Xu_R and MutantTurkey AFAIK
Qu4Z	Neat :) Well, I'm on the making happy list :) I'll be happier once I actually get it running, but the screenshots and feature lists look awesome :)
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	there are more features in SVN now
windowshasyou	hey, as long as it works and it doesn't use an inordinate amount of resouces... oh and doesn't depend on gtk, I'm happy with it.
Qu4Z	And 3.5.10 makes me happy for the most part. Except that konqueror is pretty 50/50 regarding rendering pages correctly :/
kb9vqf	gtk stinks
kb9vqf	yeah, that's a known problem
Qu4Z	Yeah, I realised :) It's fairly easy to reproduce.
windowshasyou	gtk is one big mess of spaghetti dependencies
kb9vqf	I would love to switch to something like Webkit, but there are a few more changes that need to be made before that can even be entertained
KingSphinx	Konq was good for its time, but it's starting to show its age as a web browser.
Qu4Z	Are there plans to port to webkit, or are you gonna maintain-- ah, you pre-empted me? :)
kb9vqf	Konq is still an excellent everything-but-a-Web-browser tool
kb9vqf	The web browser is just a plugin
KingSphinx	Current KDE4 version of Konq is a lot better browser-wise though.
kb9vqf	a plugin that can be rewritten to call something else
Qu4Z	Yeah. Konq is amazing. I think it really exemplifies waht I like about KDE3
windowshasyou	KingSphinx: have you tried the 4.7 konq?
kb9vqf	well yes, and it's also a lot worse of a file manager :-P
windowshasyou	that thing crashes just loading google
Qu4Z	But the web-browser support working would be neat, too.
Qu4Z	Otherwise I have to use chrome, or ff.
kb9vqf	Honestly Chrome is a nice browser
kb9vqf	Part of me wonders if it could be embedded in Konq
KingSphinx	Just wish I could get Chromium to actually let me save stuff while in Trinity.
kb9vqf	That is probably fixed in SVN
Qu4Z	I've been getting the impression chromium's been getting slower, actually. But agreed, it is nice.
kb9vqf	not sure
Qu4Z	If we could embed it, that would be an A+ solution to the rendering thing :)
windowshasyou	cool.. kdelibs is building with cmake
Qu4Z	windowshasyou: Is building or has built?
windowshasyou	is building
Qu4Z	I got part way through, then died. So I went to bed.
windowshasyou	its at 8 percent right now
Qu4Z	OK.
Qu4Z	Good luck :) I want to head home and fix mine now, but sadly, I can't.
kb9vqf	just pastebin the error and poke me with it
windowshasyou	lol I've been there... spend all my time at work day dreaming and making lists of things I want to fix
kb9vqf	or send it to the trinity-devel mailing list
Qu4Z	kb9vqf: Will do, thanks. I'll have a crack at fixing it myself first. It's probably nothing too hard, just something I missed late last night
kb9vqf	sure
kb9vqf	I would appreciate that
kb9vqf	and if it needs patching send the patch to the trinity-devel list
kb9vqf	that way it could be included in SVN :)
windowshasyou	Qu4Z: Are you running a multilib system?
Qu4Z	Yeah
windowshasyou	that might account for it. I'm on no-multilib
Qu4Z	Oh, okay. How's that working for you? I find every now and then I want *some* -32 thing. Like dosbox
windowshasyou	So far, so good. I've used no-multilib for 2 years now without issue
windowshasyou	The system seemed to be a bit more stable for me going that route
Qu4Z	Oh, neat. I'd kinda like to... all these 32-bit compat packages feel a bit crufty, but... :/
Qu4Z	Well, I'll bear that in mind. Maybe next install I'll try going the no-multilib route.
windowshasyou	Once Carmack releases the doom3 sources, I won't have any regrets. Hopefully he keeps his promise of releasing it around the 13th of next month
windowshasyou	Last time I emailed him, his reply said the only thing holding it up was a creative labs patent.
windowshasyou	over that EAX stuff
Qu4Z	Neat :) Does that mean you could run doom3 under multilib?
windowshasyou	Once its opensourced and the ioquake group gets it, it means that you won't need multilib to run it. that group created a sparc, solaris, nomultilib, smartphone port of quake3
windowshasyou	their revised source runs pretty well.
windowshasyou	they have ported it to other archs as well
Qu4Z	Neat :) Didn't know that. Not much of a gamer, myself. Or bioware and SNES, when I do.
windowshasyou	Is bioware still around?
windowshasyou	last I heard, ea-games wanted to buy them out
Qu4Z	Sorta :/ I think someone bought them, but then left them some freedom. I mostly play the older stuff :P
windowshasyou	oh ok. I buy the IDSoftware games because they have a tradition of supporting non windows OS
windowshasyou	Used to do the same thing for epic games till they had their hissy fit
Qu4Z	Yeah, it's true. I do approve of that :) FPS just isn't raelly my poison.
KingSphinx	Hissy fit?
Qu4Z	Epic games == Epic MegaGames?
windowshasyou	KingSphinx: Qu4Z: yeah
windowshasyou	they basically pulled the plug on the ut3 linux client and then went public saying all computer users are pirates
Qu4Z	:/
windowshasyou	and they won't be making any games for anything but consoles now
Qu4Z	Man, localpatch in funtoo is exactly what I've wanted many times in gentoo.
KingSphinx	Psshh, screw 'em.
windowshasyou	after they had slapped the tux logo on the ut3 box and told everyone they were working with icculous to make the nix and mac port
windowshasyou	he got as far as making a working installer that was relatively bug free, then epic pulled the plug
windowshasyou	they refused to give anyone a refund for buying it over the tux logo
Qu4Z	That's kinda a dick move
windowshasyou	lol yep
windowshasyou	45 percent complete
windowshasyou	47 now
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windowshasyou	tde libs just finished compiling
Qu4Z	:D Cool. Hopefully I can replicate this feat when I get home. Heading off now :)
windowshasyou	Qu4Z: Good luck : )
Qu4Z	Thanks :)
ar	http://notalwaysright.com/youve-got-the-wrongest-make/13347 - lol
KingSphinx	...XD wow
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Qu4Z	I like the suggestion that to install we execute "make install || exit 1"
Qu4Z	Why yes, I do want to close my shell in frustration if I've managed to struggle through all of configuring and building, and then the INSTALL step fails
Qu4Z	Hm... I can't compile kdelibs/dcop/dcopserver.cpp because HAVE_SYS_STAT_H isn't being set, even though I have a sys/stat.h
Qu4Z	Anyone know what's responsible for setting that macro? Presumably cmake, in some way shape or form...
Qu4Z	(if I comment out the #ifdef HAVE_SYS_STAT_H around the include, it builds fine)
Qu4Z	Ah, looks like it's in CMakeLists.txt. I guess I should learn cmake at some point :/
Qu4Z	Well, I can't replicate it anymore. If I encounter it again, I've learned a lot about cmake in the last half hour :P
Qu4Z	Actually, I spoke too soon
Qu4Z	The config.h is being generated fine, but it's not included when building, because the first -I is -I/opt/qt3/include
Qu4Z	Hope I'm not annoying anyone by liveblogging my attempts in the chan :P I think the troubles I encounter in the process may be useful for posterity
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Qu4Z	Hm... looks like the build doesn't fail on a bunch of stuff it probably should
Qu4Z	Or rather, the configure should. The build does :P
Qu4Z	I can have a crack at it at some point.
Qu4Z	Hm... looks like Gentoo has completely removed hal :/ So about that upower/udisks migration :P
Qu4Z	Ah well, that's what overlays are for
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MutantTu1key	jumpship: hey
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MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: hey
MutantTu1key	where are the man pages generate from with automake?
kb9vqf	huh?
MutantTu1key	how do we generate man pages?
kb9vqf	I don't know :-/
MutantTu1key	:|
kb9vqf	dig around in the automake files I guess
MutantTu1key	jumpship was trying to fix up some manpage problems for yakuake and I can't find it either
kb9vqf	did you do a general search for the text of the manpage?
kb9vqf	e.g. a couple of words or a phrase that are in the generated manpage?
kb9vqf	once you find the originating file you can then search for it's name in the Automake files
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MutantTu1key	jumpship: sorry my VPS went down
MutantTu1key	back online:)
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MutantTu1key	dang
MutantTu1key	this is annoying
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: I am boggled
kb9vqf	?
MutantTu1key	I literally searched the entire applications/ tree for this string
MutantTu1key	"YaKuake is inspired from the terminal in the Quake game"
MutantTu1key	which is in the man page
MutantTu1key	to find out how it was generated. I can't even find the source of the string
kb9vqf	that is probably too large of a string
kb9vqf	try "Quake game"
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: good thinking
kb9vqf	there are control characters, line breaks, etc that could mess up the search :)
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MutantTu1key	hey TokRa!
TokRa	hail MutantTu1key
MutantTu1key	How are you/
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: also did those guys email you?
kb9vqf	As I mentioned, one did
kb9vqf	and the other did not
MutantTu1key	sorry I didn't see
MutantTu1key	( i know i am being quite an annoying jerk about it constantly poking you and such )
MutantTu1key	but just trying to keep it moving
kb9vqf	that's fine :)
kb9vqf	I granted francios his account
kb9vqf	you can follow up with the other guy if you want
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MutantTu1key	ok
MutantTu1key	and we won't be able to do the flash plugin thing, unless thier kcm files are compatible.
MutantTu1key	kde4 that is
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kb9vqf	I know
kb9vqf	and no, they are not compatible
MutantTu1key	but are kcm files compiled?
MutantTu1key	or are they like xml files?
kb9vqf	they are compiled
MutantTu1key	shucks
kb9vqf	they are C++ kparts plugins
MutantTu1key	okay
MutantTu1key	so there is no way we can even do it
kb9vqf	I have no idea why Flash did that in the first place :-/
MutantTu1key	I don't use flash anyway.
MutantTu1key	why? probably one of the devels uses KDE4
kb9vqf	that expains some of Flash's bloat and bugginess ;-)
kb9vqf	(the fact that a dev likes KDE4)
hazridi	nah, flash is older than KDE 4 by like 7 years... its just old, and crap, and from before we cared about such things like code quality
kb9vqf	It's a bit ridiculous when modern computers still choke on flash apps from 5 years ago
MutantTu1key	flash in general is ridiculous
kb9vqf	so KDE4 got its ideas from Flash?  Interesting :)
MutantTu1key	hahaha
kb9vqf	KDE4 does remind me of a bad Flash game...
kb9vqf	never put my finger on it till now
hazridi	I dont honestly think KDE4 is that bad
kb9vqf	I do :)
hazridi	it's not gnome
kb9vqf	Well, Gnome is in a class all by itself
kb9vqf	It's a DE especially designed for idiots
kb9vqf	/rant
hazridi	I'd be happy if I could get oxygen to work in trinity ;-)
kb9vqf	You like the colors, widgets and such?
kb9vqf	I think there are one or two Oxygen knockoffs floating around
hazridi	don't care about widgets
* kb9vqf hates them personally
hazridi	I like the oxygen theme
kb9vqf	well, the theme encompasses colors, window handles, general interaction, and widget style
kb9vqf	so I would need to know which one(s) you like :)
hazridi	the window decoration
kb9vqf	ah
hazridi	colors also I suppose
hazridi	I use the grey color on my desktop and in KDE all the apps look perfect.. actually with oxygen-gtk even gtk apps look mostly like KDE apps now
kb9vqf	have a look on kde-look and see if you like anything there
hazridi	I did try
hazridi	Most of it just failed to work, heh
kb9vqf	Personally I always found Oxygen to use about 3x the x/y space (e.g. 9x the area) of an equivalent desktop from another manufacturer
hazridi	for some reason even plastik is busted
kb9vqf	plastik is in Trinity already
kb9vqf	and we do have the GTK engine
MutantTu1key	I find the smaller the space the more i like the theme.
kb9vqf	a lot of GTK apps blend in almost perfectly
MutantTu1key	I actually think Mac OS X does an very good job at this.
MutantTu1key	their widgets (while I don't like them all) and Icons are very minimal and easy to work with and recognize
MutantTu1key	they are pretty lean on their space usage
hazridi	Oxygen doesn't seem to have large decorations to me at all
kb9vqf	MutantTu1key: Yes, but their interaction is quite bad
MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: agreed.
kb9vqf	the window decorations are OK I guess
kb9vqf	but the widgets stink'
MutantTu1key	I have been using this mac for the entire summer at my internship
MutantTu1key	it's terrible
MutantTu1key	it's an old G5. slow as molassas.
MutantTu1key	molassass or whatever.
MutantTu1key	definitely spelled wrong.
kb9vqf	IIRC we have a nice Mac theme somewhere :)
kb9vqf	if you like that look
MutantTu1key	one thinkI like about mac is they distinguish between applications for switching
hazridi	The only widgets I use are: task bar, clock, system tray, and calendar (because it comes up when I click on the clock)
MutantTu1key	so Alt+tab moves between apps Alt+` moves between windows in the application
hazridi	and I don't really have any ideological problem with widgets... i mean, if you want a system tray on your desktop, put it there and it works there. makes sense to me
hazridi	of course the system I use KDE 4 on has 8 gb of ram
MutantTu1key	just because you have space doesn't give an excuse for crappy software.
hazridi	usually about 6.5 GB at any time is just straight up allocated to file cache.
MutantTu1key	...
hazridi	(it's free)
MutantTu1key	oh
MutantTu1key	i thought you meant some sort of kde4 thing
MutantTu1key	not regular unix caching
hazridi	oh, no
hazridi	I turn off all that semantic desktop crap
MutantTu1key	my desktop caches all its ram basically
kb9vqf	isn't that most of KDE4? ;-)
MutantTu1key	after a few days of use
hazridi	nah
MutantTu1key	2GB is more than plenty of ram.
hazridi	just some widgets and KDE PIM which I dont use since I use gmail
hazridi	I actually do have a 2GB notebook running aptosid and kde4 on a partition, its pretty usable there as well
kb9vqf	I guess I should rephrase that...I thought the "semantic desktop" (whatever that means) was one of KDE4's main selling points
hazridi	all my other notebooks are on trinity though
hazridi	since they are slower ;)
hazridi	it is
hazridi	but that doesn't mean you have to use it
hazridi	it's still not gnome
kb9vqf	not yet anyway
hazridi	you don't even need to have nepomuk or kde pim even installed
kb9vqf	But you can't get rid of Plasma, which is the thing I hate most...
MutantTu1key	plasma is the dumbest thing ever.
kb9vqf	stupid thing looks like it belongs on a smart phone
MutantTu1key	and nepomuk is hellish.
hazridi	by plasma you mean the entire draw layer?
kb9vqf	and method of interaction with the desktop
MutantTu1key	by plasma we mean the infernal piece of crap that wastes our resources.
hazridi	Qt? :P
kb9vqf	I prefer to increase my desktop space when I have free CPU resources instead of sucking them down into useless eye candy :)
kb9vqf	that is, the resolution of the desktop
kb9vqf	and I meant CPU/GPU
MutantTu1key	I did just notice that i have like 1100 packages installed
MutantTu1key	because I never remove uneeded dependencies.
MutantTu1key	just getting around to that
hazridi	heh
hazridi	I'm running on sid, and this installation is like 5 years old
hazridi	I'm sure my package count is something like 7000
MutantTu1key	4 year installation here
MutantTu1key	meeting bbinabit
hazridi	I have a LOT of libraries and headers installed
hazridi	kb9vqf:  I turn off compositing, I'm not a total freak. Actually I was pretty unhappy with KDE 4 until 4.6 which fixed all the UI lagginess
kb9vqf	I'm not trying to insult you :)
kb9vqf	just trying to figure out why anyone likes KDE4 at all
kb9vqf	(other than certain freaks who can't use a computer unless it looks and acts like their phone)
kb9vqf	I guess if you turn off the semantic desktop and compositing, what exactly is the draw over Trinity?
hazridi	Well, I'm used to it
hazridi	Trinity obviously not in sid's package manager ;)
kb9vqf	ah, ok
kb9vqf	so it's more of a lack of official distro support than anything else
hazridi	Well, I installed KDE4 because it was that, gnome, xfce, or lxde
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	we really should try to get ourselves in upstream soon
kb9vqf	downstream rather
kb9vqf	:-P
hazridi	and I'm productive enough with it that I'm not messing around with the DE on my main dev machine
kb9vqf	sure
hazridi	I still miss a lot of KDE 3 features
kb9vqf	although sometime you should use a mouse odomoeter and see which desktop makes you move your wrist the most ;-)
hazridi	like having krunner files work over SMB
kb9vqf	*odometer
hazridi	well, I have a 5600 dpi mouse
kb9vqf	nice :)
kb9vqf	you get my drift though
hazridi	I traverse entire 3840 pixel desktop in 3/4th of an inch
hazridi	I mean, it took until 4.6 for Konsole 4 to have the popup context menu when you right click a tab
kb9vqf	I know
kb9vqf	ugh
hazridi	konqueror still is nowhere near what it used to be
kb9vqf	The funny thing is I actually like touchscreen technology, but I think it should be used to augment the desktop, not replace it
hazridi	they moved to that dolphin crap
kb9vqf	you do realize that the lack of popup menus is a) they are hard to implement correctly, especially in Qt4 and b) touchscreens don't have a right mouse button
kb9vqf	too much focus on the touchscreen
kb9vqf	going from three mouse buttons to one is not a good thing ;-)
hazridi	I just got the impression they lost too many devs after the KDE 4 fiasco so they are just understaffed
hazridi	touchscreens have long press
hazridi	which is the equivalent of the RMB ;-)
kb9vqf	yes, but I put the emphasis on *long*
kb9vqf	you can ususally put in a few normal taps by the time the RMB registers
kb9vqf	so that's how the design the interface
* kb9vqf knows from experience
kb9vqf	not only are they understaffed, they don't want to "clutter up" their new, "clean" code with "useless" and/or "old fashioned" features
hazridi	It's a little weird to make the desktop touch friendly when Qt hasn't even been ported to android properly, but whatever
kb9vqf	I know :-P
kb9vqf	such is the nature of fads
kb9vqf	underlying some of it though is the fact that Qt4 is designed to be touchscreen friendly
kb9vqf	I have tried to implement some basic desktop-type functions on it and it leaves a lot to be desired
hazridi	The only Qt coding i've ever done is when I fixed Amarok to work with my ipod touch, lol
kb9vqf	Qt3 or Qt4?
hazridi	coincidentally, I also make it work with the iphone and ipad, cuz i'm a tool
hazridi	qt4, it was amarok 2.3.0 from the GIT repo
kb9vqf	ah
kb9vqf	I don't mind personally regarding the Apple stuff
kb9vqf	The iphone/ipad are great little devices
hazridi	I'm not really a fan
kb9vqf	I just wouldn't give up my computer for one ;-)
hazridi	I prefer Android
kb9vqf	well, yes
hazridi	I actually hate the ipod touch
kb9vqf	but for a single purpose "it just works" embedded-type device they are pretty good
hazridi	since someone broke libgpod in debian and the only machine it works on is my trinity notebook running stable
kb9vqf	fun
hazridi	I've spent most of the time I've had it unable to have any computer talk to it unless I booted into windows
kb9vqf	so it works in Trinity?
kb9vqf	or is Trinity broken as well?
kb9vqf	I would like to fix it if it is broken...
hazridi	I had to fix it, but it works with amarok in trinity
hazridi	It is a debian bug
hazridi	The udev rules are wrong, I think
hazridi	I don't remember exactly
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	we use HAL and are not affected by the udev problems
kb9vqf	in fact this is one reason we still use HAL
kb9vqf	it tends to be more reliable right now
hazridi	well
hazridi	libgpod has never had HAL support
hazridi	I guess it's libimobiledevice now
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kb9vqf	ah
kb9vqf	I have no idea then :)
kb9vqf	I don't own anything from Apple
kb9vqf	never saw a need to listen to music while walking :)
hazridi	I just use my phone now, it's a much nicer device.
hazridi	Plug it in over USB, I can use mass storage... or I can just take the memory card out and put files on it
hazridi	will never go back to an apple product
windowshasyou	http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-6794658.html?sid=14480a290b3082839d83d69189097949    I think this is the best rant I've seen about Gentoo lately.
MutantTu1key	isn't libimobiledevice doing well though?
windowshasyou	kb9vqf: I got tde to install last night, but none of it was executable. Has anyone else reported an issue when using the cmake builds?
kb9vqf	no
windowshasyou	alright. I guess I'll be rewriting most of the sergei ebuilds then.
kb9vqf	oh fun
kb9vqf	do you want to put the fixes in our git?
windowshasyou	I might once I confirm the issues are with the ebuilds.
windowshasyou	even a chmod a+x didn't fix it. Konsole wasn't excutable, neither was konqueror, or anything else.
kb9vqf	that sounds like something else
kb9vqf	I have had that before when trying to execute amd64 binaries on a i386 system
kb9vqf	for example
kb9vqf	all I can say is make sure your gcc flags are not too aggressive
kb9vqf	and that you are compiling for the architecture you think you are
windowshasyou	I may be wrong, but I would think that when compiling from source, if it wasn't a strict amd64 build, gcc wouldn't finish building.
windowshasyou	as for my cflags, its just march=native -pipe -fomit-frame-pointer
windowshasyou	but yeah, I'll reexamine everything later
windowshasyou	its too hot right now to attempt to compile anything
MutantTu1key	your cflags are fine
windowshasyou	kb9vqf: Do you know if TDE supports prelinking?
MutantTu1key	prelinking?
MutantTu1key	windowshasyou: yeah also you should stick your ebuilds in our git.
windowshasyou	&#8206;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prelink
windowshasyou	I will. I just noticed some other things wrong with the TDE ebuild. He didn't specify paths either
windowshasyou	I realized that hes said he was guessing at it. So I'm not really complaining. He got off to a good start with them.
kb9vqf	no idea, sorry
kb9vqf	there is no technical reason why we should break with prelink
MutantTu1key	oh
MutantTu1key	okay I know what prelinking is
windowshasyou	its ok. He should have added in something like this
MutantTu1key	its just preloading libraries at startup correct?
windowshasyou	PATH=${PREFIX}/bin
windowshasyou	ROOTPATH=${PREFIX}/sbin:${PREFIX}/bin
windowshasyou	LDPATH=${libdirs}
windowshasyou	MANPATH=${PREFIX}/share/man
windowshasyou	CONFIG_PROTECT="${PREFIX}/share/config ${PREFIX}/env ${PREFIX}/shutdown /usr/sh$
windowshasyou	#KDE_IS_PRELINKED=1
windowshasyou	MutantTu1key: yep. basically.
MutantTu1key	then the answer is yes.
MutantTu1key	rather - why not?
windowshasyou	I wasn't sure if it had been removed or was broke by a patch or something like that.
MutantTu1key	I want to see if it works with UPX
windowshasyou	I figured I'd ask before I included anything
windowshasyou	MutantTu1key: that might be kinda fun to play with
MutantTu1key	upx rocks for certain stuff
MutantTu1key	It definitely helped on my staticly linked browser
MutantTu1key	as well as giant blobs like firefod
MutantTu1key	firefox'
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windowshasyou	another probably stupid question; Has support for archs like mips, sparc, etc been removed, broken, or anything like that?
MutantTu1key	not tested
MutantTu1key	we don't have the hardware
windowshasyou	ok. I'll set them as ~ then just so one doesn't have to do it later
windowshasyou	heres what I've got so far. http://pastebin.com/hN8nJWb8  a little over double the size of the old one for tdelibs
MutantTu1key	kdelibs....
MutantTu1key	windowshasyou: we are keeping the original naming conventions
windowshasyou	ok
MutantTu1key	and instead doing like trinity-kdebase trinity-kdelibs
MutantTu1key	and so on
MutantTu1key	DESCRIPTION should refer to trinity instead.
MutantTu1key	Homepage should be Trinitydesktop.org
windowshasyou	ok. I'll change it.
MutantTu1key	:)
windowshasyou	for description, I just changed it to Trinity Libs. Does anyone have any better suggestions?
windowshasyou	ugh! and I just realized I made all kinds of cmake errors
MutantTu1key	that is good
MutantTu1key	that you changed it
MutantTu1key	what sort of errors?
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windowshasyou	if use avahi || use bindist ; then
windowshasyou	myconf="${myconf} --disable-dnssd"
windowshasyou	I keep forgetting that cmake ignores those kinds of arguments
windowshasyou	should be DWITH_OUT
MutantTu1key	yeah sorry
windowshasyou	correction -DWITH_DNSSD=OFF
MutantTu1key	that is it
MutantTu1key	-DWITH_ITEM=BOOLEAN
MutantTu1key	okay, gotta catch the train. cya guys
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Xu_R	hello world ^_^
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KingSphinx	Any have any idea as to why my external disks auto-mount upon starting Trinity? I suspect GNOME issues (it usually happens after I see a flicker of my Unity wallpaper), but I'm not entirely sure.
KingSphinx	It's not a huge problem or anything (more of a minor annoyance), but I just thought I'd throw it out there.
kb9vqf	that's probably it
kb9vqf	you should NEVER see your Unity wallpaper
kb9vqf	Gnome is launching in the background possibly
KingSphinx	...yep, looks like GNOME (sorry, I just got used to the all-caps way of spelling it) might be launching in the background, because KSysGuard's showing stuff like gnome-keyrig-daemon and gnome-screensaver
KingSphinx	*keyring
kb9vqf	np
kb9vqf	I can't help fix it though :(
kb9vqf	too much IRClag here and way too little time :-P
Xu_R	great. Hurricane is getting closer to here (outer rings)
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KingSphinx	I dunno why, but I'm actually sort of welcoming Irene. Seeing as NC needs the rain and all...
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d33tah	i just thought of something i'd find useful:
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d33tah	krfb interoperability between kde3 and kde4
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d33tah	afair these two don't work together - it would be cool if i could connect from kde3 to kde4 and the other way round
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MutantTurkey	gnome3 is terrible and crappy
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KingSphinx	Just like me to sleep through the best parts of the hurricane >_>; oh well, at least I can watch the rain
MutantTurkey	>->
MutantTurkey	yeah I am worried
MutantTurkey	I will be at work
MutantTurkey	I hope my basement can make it.
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MutantTurkey	well. everything that could have gone wrong at work did.
MutantTurkey	but kb9vqf, I have some qt3 errors.
MutantTurkey	http://ix.io/1R7
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MobileTurkey	oh boy
MobileTurkey	that hurricane put my basement under.
MobileTurkey	My entire office workspace is out of commision for at least a few days.
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Xu_R	sigh. my network is very unstable right now (darn you hurricane that didn't do much... except screw my internet around)
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KingSphinx	Just out of boredom, I burned a Kubuntu 5.04 live CD earlier. It's so old, it didn't even detect most of my hardware and failed to boot
KingSphinx	However, it did boot properly on the old computer in my living room. Managed to get a few things off it (mostly wallpaper-related).
KingSphinx	By the way, where do KDE color schemes go when imported? That's always bugged me...
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MutantTurkey	o/
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MutantTurkey	Xu_R: ayo!
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Strangelv	"Kubuntu 5.04 -- that's what I started with -- if only briefly.  5.10 was released very shortly afterwords.  I'd previously been using Libranet 2.8.1, which was getting very long in the tooth, and by the time I had the money to spacre to buy 3.0, 3.0 was no longer available at any price anywhere
Strangelv	"That reminds me, though.  A TDE based fork of Knoppix could be in arder as well as a way to inmprove our visibility.  Call it Toppix?
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: that would be awesome
MutantTurkey	Toppix sounds cool.
MutantTurkey	I am a knoppix fan
Strangelv	Could we use the final version of Knoppix 5.x for a base?
* Strangelv isn't sure where to look for it
MutantTurkey	read this
MutantTurkey	http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Knoppix_Remastering_Howto
MutantTurkey	:)
Strangelv	"even the newest version of 6.x was something I couldns't get to work usefully.  Then again in addition to not being able to set the correct keyboard layout for me, I have a display on that machine that's almost unusable for a test bench display -- plopping in the SERVER version of Natty means that I get to stare at a red rectangle that reads OUT OF RANGE in block white letters starting a few seconds into bootup
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: get a new display then!
Strangelv	Been trying to find one I could replace this one wit,h then use this one in the office
Strangelv	"What I want isn't easy to find, though.  I want 1200 lines, 24 or moer inches, and under $300
Strangelv	"and evidently it needs to not be by a certian company that starts with an H that has really bad support and poor quality control
MutantTurkey	I have a Q2010 and it's okay.
MutantTurkey	zthats a compaq
MutantTurkey	it is 1600x900 and works
Strangelv	"I've been running into a brick wall more and moer often with the limits of my vertical resolution
Strangelv	"This monitor is 23" but only has 768 lines.  When i got it it was a nonissue as I was frequently 10' away from it
MutantTurkey	we8rd
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Strangelv	:: finds a hair resotration product named Toppix and a celebrity autograph company named Toppix.  A UK web hosting service.  A french Engineering firm
Strangelv	"Something in Nederlandisch i can't make out
* kb9vqf notes thta toppix almost sounds British
Strangelv	"Another possibility would be tnoppix, but would be harder to guess how to pronounce
Strangelv	Tdoppix?
kb9vqf	hard to pronounce
kb9vqf	there is no tn or td digraph in most languages
Z_God	Strangelv: in dutch?
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KingSphinx	Troppix? Or is that not available as a name?
KingSphinx	"Tr"inity Kn"oppix"? ...it's dead in here...
Z_God	I think just Knoppix would be good, cause the original Knoppix also ran on KDE3 :)
KingSphinx	Well, I was reading in the channel log about the whole name debate, and thought of something I thought was catchy...
KingSphinx	Though we could just go the Kubuntu route and just do something like Knoppix: Powered by KDE3/Trinity
kb9vqf	toppix, troppix, or knoppix (in that order)
kb9vqf	and that is also a good idea :)
kb9vqf	(just my opinion on the names)
Strangelv	Troppix sounds like it needs a different specialization. 8)
Strangelv	"Knoppix is now being used to run something that isn't us.  Even if wve could get away with it, I'm not a fan of name collissions
* Strangelv can make no gurantees. He's way too overcommitted without another thing to work on
Strangelv	toppix.com is already registered by someone
Strangelv	"I'm not going to try just .org if someone tahs .com reserved and isn't using it -- they could put up a site designet to confuse people.  I've seen really discredible pseudo-wikis up with wiki names, probably to compell anyone wantingto use the name to force them to bup up the pseudopedia
Strangelv	toppix-disc.*?
Strangelv	Google newer heard of gnoppix and assumes it's a typo.  My search also failed to show me names for other derivatives
hazridi	Hasn't knoppix been dead for years?
* Strangelv fails to figure out a good domain name and ponders just making it a subdomain or similar of trinitydesktop
hazridi	I'd think debian live would be a better, more up to date system than knoppix
Strangelv	"Knoppix is 6.7 or so and is using LXDE
Strangelv	"I'm not familiar witht Debian Live.  How does it differ from Knoppix?
Strangelv	:: looks at http://happyfunquiz.com/d/w1i8k07131
Strangelv	"<er, wrong linsk
Strangelv	"That's a phish I got when I typoed a wikipeida link
Strangelv	::: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_Live
Strangelv	"It claims you're today's winner for Wikipedia.
* Strangelv goes back to looking for information buried in the Internet Archive
KingSphinx	Isn't there already a Debian-based Trinity? Though you're right, AFAIK, there's no Debian Live version.
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hazridi	yes, Exelinux is a Squeeze-based trinity distro
hazridi	I think it is actually a live installer
Strangelv	Nice.  Who maintains it?  Any chance of a version based on the current nightly?
Strangelv	:: wonders what keeps locking up IceCat a he breaks down and restarts/reloads again
* KingSphinx wonder why Debian still insists on the IceWhatever branding :P
Strangelv	"For a reference live distro we could change that to branded firefox
Strangelv	ZSelf-aggrandizing wallpaper and logos instead of Debian ones
Strangelv	Show off the suite of KDE 3 apps, especially the ones that work wiell in the nightly
Strangelv	FileZilla
Strangelv	VLC
Strangelv	"If we need Gnome dependancies already, throw in the likes of GParted
Strangelv	WINE
KingSphinx	Wait, isn't VLC Qt4-based?
Strangelv	KEDit and Kate if they're not covered in the KDE 3/TDE set
Strangelv	What else?
Strangelv	Q: Do we include KOffice?
Strangelv	...and what are some ways to differentiate it from Exe Linux?
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* kb9vqf suggests fixing up exelinux if it's deficient
kb9vqf	or creating a subproject that is based on exelinux
kb9vqf	but keeping the two projects linked
kb9vqf	to avoid duplication of effort
Strangelv	"The goals aren't quite a 100% match.  One is to make a LiveCD that's Debian with TDE; the other is to increase the visibility of TDE and possibyl even play a role as a testbed.  After all, Knoppix was routinely based on Sid and possibyl still is
KingSphinx	I'm still liking the ring of Troppix :P
Strangelv	"That sounds like a distribution for surfurs
Strangelv	"Q: How many surfurs would want a user environment that's specialized for non-mobile applications that errs on the size of customizability over simplicity and a simple learning curve?
Strangelv	"or even surfers
Strangelv	:: couldn't spell yesterday, either
ar	maybe you meant "sulfurs"?
* Strangelv holds up a shrinkwrapped box for Brimstonux
Strangelv	"Give it a customized package manager, etna-get?
hazridi	I'm running Exelinux on a notebook, there's really not much wrong with it.
hazridi	It's the current version of stable and a not-too-stale build of TDE
hazridi	I think the main issue with it is that it isn't branded with TDE on the bootup ;-)
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hazridi	I mailed the dev a while ago and he would probably be happy with the publicity of being an upstream for a branded project.
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Strangelv	Sounds like we might want to talk with him. 8)
* Strangelv doesn't know what the current version of VLC is built on, but he for one always installs it. It blows all other solutinos out of the water
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Vasistha	I'm still on debian lenny, dreading the upgrade to kde4 (after seeing it on a couple other systems). Someone recommended I check out trinity. Is it possibly to basically migrate all my KDE3 settings to trinity?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	all you need to do is move the ~/.kde3 folder to ~/.trinity after installing Trinity
kb9vqf	nothing is absolutely guaranteeed, but it should keep most of your settings :)
Vasistha	kb9vqf: wow, that sounds really great. thank you so much.
kb9vqf	np
kb9vqf	if you run into problems or have questions feel free to ask them here or on the mailing list
kb9vqf	also it is always a good idea to back up your machine before performing a large upgrade like the KDE3->Trinity move :)
Vasistha	I suppose it's worth asking... my biggest problem with any kde app is kmail-- I use offlineimap, and because kmail can't directly access maildir folders without DELETING them and moving them, I have to go through dovecot which always seems really silly
Vasistha	yes I will back up! :D
kb9vqf	I have never had problems with Kmail on IMAP, but that doesn't mean they don't exist ;-)
kb9vqf	If you do experience undesired behaviour like that please file a bug report
Vasistha	oh! alright, I'll talk with the offlineimap folks about it. I guess a lot of old KDE bugs which may still exist need to be re-filed huh?
kb9vqf	it is possible, but please test Trinity to verify that the bug is still present before refiling :)
Vasistha	well yes :)
kb9vqf	A lot of old KDE3 bugs have been fixed
kb9vqf	but I am sure a lot remain...
kb9vqf	:)
Vasistha	may I ask, is there some kind of meaning behind your nick "kb9vqf"?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	I am an Amateur Radio operator
kb9vqf	that is my callsign
Vasistha	ah nice
Vasistha	my grandfather used to do that. he knew morse code! had a big tower in the backyard
kb9vqf	sounds like a nice setup :)
Vasistha	yeah. and in his radio room he had all these postcards from around the world, from people he'd met on there
kb9vqf	Those are called QSL cards :)
kb9vqf	I have a few myself
Vasistha	nice!
kb9vqf	haven't had much time alone with the radio lately though... :(
Vasistha	global communication is possible via other means nowadays :P
kb9vqf	yeah
kb9vqf	even this channel is home to people from different continents
kb9vqf	although it would only take one strong solar flare or some kind of war to disable this means of communication...
Vasistha	haha
Vasistha	our infrastructure is so fragile!
kb9vqf	I know :-P
kb9vqf	so there's still a place for the ham radio operators :)
kb9vqf	diversity is a good thing
Vasistha	yeah, without a doubt. and ham radio is basically impossible to censor
kb9vqf	and the middle east shows the importance of that...
Vasistha	when the blackberries stop working... :)
kb9vqf	hehe
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KingSphinx	I'mm pleased, but still surprised that a distro (ExeLinux, I think...?) is actually using Trinity as the primary DE
KingSphinx	*I'm
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devilman__	hello
devilman__	i speak spanish, sorry for my bad english
devilman__	trinity it's spanish
devilman__	i think use trinity in debian squeeze
devilman__	in my laptop panasonic toughbook cf 73
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* KingSphinx is thinking of trying Debian out of boredom
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KingSphinx	Would the nightly branch work with Debian Sid?
KingSphinx	Or, for that matter, would the regular release branch be okay with Sid or would there be dependency issues?
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MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: Xu_R: post hurricane my entire basement is still a mess. I am trying to pull my studio together and mu office area back ASAP.
MobileTurkey	I am also ordering my laptop Friday which should free up a lot
Xu_R	MobileTurkey: :-\ flooded? :(
* Xu_R has been busy lately and has not finished trinity specs at all yet
MobileTurkey	I have a lot of work todo.
MobileTurkey	let tim know. I gotta split.
MobileTurkey	ok?
MobileTurkey	you can still catch me on email.
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Xu_R	ok
kb9vqf	Xu_R: I had a chat with the LibreOffice folks just now: http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/10
kb9vqf	not sure when I will be able to rebase the patch, but they sound open to including it...
kb9vqf	:)
Xu_R	o. lucky you caught me, I was about to head off :P
kb9vqf	it's not too important
kb9vqf	just an update :)
Xu_R	i'm sure it's a good one ^_^
Xu_R	kb9vqf: oh, good. that means it's a lot simplified :D
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	will be nice not to have to fight with LibreOffice each release... :-P
Xu_R	:P indeed
Xu_R	btw, I'm trying to speed up on packaging - I was planning to have at least the core packages done by mid October, but it looks like I'll have to find more time...
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	that would be good
kb9vqf	the code in the nightly builds is now quite stable
kb9vqf	so a bit more bug quashing and we will be able to release
* Xu_R notes that Ilya threw all the packaging of KDE:KDE3 into question when he said that he didn't build and test locally...
Xu_R	I'm racing against time. :P
kb9vqf	!?!??
tbottu	kb9vqf: Error: "?!??" is not a valid command.
kb9vqf	ok
Xu_R	ok, I gotta split. early start again tmrw x_x
Xu_R	later kb9vqf
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kb9vqf	see you around :)
KingSphinx	Of all things, I just rediscovered the whole CTRL+ALT+F1-7 trick. Doesn't seem to work properly with Trinity if kdm-kde3 is used as a display manager though.
KingSphinx	Also, I can't get sound to go through my USB headset in Trinity, so I'm stuck in Unity for now. >_>;
kb9vqf	that's a PulseAudio problem
kb9vqf	there is a program to deal with that
* kb9vqf is trying to remember the name of i
kb9vqf	http://0pointer.de/lennart/projects/padevchooser/
kb9vqf	padevchooser is in the Ubuntu archives
kb9vqf	Virtual terminals (CTRL+ALT+F*) do work in Trinity
kb9vqf	I use them all the time
kb9vqf	might be an Xorg configuration problem on your end
KingSphinx	Odd, since AFAIK, I haven't messed with Xorg
kb9vqf	hmmm
* kb9vqf really has no idea
KingSphinx	I'll try it again, I guess.
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kb9vqf	It works just fine here, and there is nothing in Trinity that is able to disable a core Linux feature like that
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KingSphinx	Er, nope, virtual terminals just send me back to a loop of the Plymouth image when I try to go back to the GUI
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kb9vqf	that's a Plymouth bug
kb9vqf	I don't use Plymouth so I wouldn't have seen it :-P
KingSphinx	You enabled verbose booting?
kb9vqf	always do
KingSphinx	How do you do that?
kb9vqf	well, techically I didn't on my laptop
kb9vqf	and VTs are not working on it wither
kb9vqf	*either
* KingSphinx actually rather likes watching the kernel as it boots
kb9vqf	You have to edit  the /boot/grub/menu.lst file and remove the quiet argument from the kernel boot line
kb9vqf	I think Ubuntu has instructions somewhere :)
Qu4Z	KingSphinx: It's funny, because I spent a bunch of effort installing a pretty bootsplash
Qu4Z	You use Ubuntu or Fedora or something, yeah?
KingSphinx	Ubuntu, used to use Fedora
Qu4Z	I just find it ironic that the Ubuntu user goes out of his way to enable watching the kernel output, whereas the Gentoo user goes out of his way to hide it. Maybe we should swap :P
KingSphinx	Switched back to Ubuntu after learning about Trinity's trouble with RHEL/Fedora
Qu4Z	Trouble? Just compatibility issues, or some sort of policy stuff?
KingSphinx	Policy stuff, I believe. RPM packaging policy forbids installation in /opt
Qu4Z	Huh. Well, I guess it makes sense for in-tree stuff to stick to other dirs
Qu4Z	Can't Trinity install into /usr/<bla>?
Qu4Z	I mean, I totally get if that's not a priority to sort out right now.
Qu4Z	But I seem to remember there were -DTRINITY_LIB_DIR= options to cmake
kb9vqf	you can pick the directory, yes
kb9vqf	but only to a point
kb9vqf	if you pick /usr/foo/ then you have to add that directory to a number of "standard paths" within the Trinity source
kb9vqf	it gets messy fast
KingSphinx	Even with the move to TQt, will Trinity still need to install in /opt or will there be a point where it can install in /usr/whatever like any other DE?
Qu4Z	Standard paths? So just adding /usr/lib/trinity to LIBRARY_LD_PATH or whatever in startkde won't fix it?
Qu4Z	What are the "standard paths" used for?
kb9vqf	they are in the source code
kb9vqf	they allow the build system to find libraries
kb9vqf	Konqueror to find its plugins, etc.
Qu4Z	Okay :/
kb9vqf	grep for /opt/trinity in the source tree and you will find where they are :)
Qu4Z	Shouldn't that be using environment variables with defaults or something?
Qu4Z	Haha, yeah ^^ Not on a computer with Trinity source checked out atm, though :/
kb9vqf	The build system can't rely on environment variables
kb9vqf	yes, it should be done differently, but at this point that is a very, very low priority
Qu4Z	Oh, right. The build system. Missed that bit, and skipped straight to "konqueror find its plugins"
Qu4Z	Yeah, fair enough.
kb9vqf	actually I think konqueror will find its plugins anyway
kb9vqf	there was some other obscure problem that occurred
kb9vqf	I can't remember now :)
kb9vqf	I settled on /opt a long time ago and don't really fell up to changing it now
Qu4Z	No worries :) I'm not a Fedora user anyway. I was just curious why it was a problem.
Qu4Z	Yeah, fair enough.
kb9vqf	if others want to send patches I'd be happy to include them :)
Qu4Z	I'm chucking everything in /opt, so I won't patch it :P
Qu4Z	I let portage-installed stuff live in /usr and friends, manually installed stuff can live in /opt
Qu4Z	Not entirely what they're for, but you know what? Doesn't matter.
kb9vqf	In all honesty KDE4 should have been forced to rename their apps due to the major functionality difference between KDE3 and KDE4, but that was never an option :-P
kb9vqf	a case of "when an "upgrade" is not actually an upgrade, its an entirely different app with the same name"
kb9vqf	oh well :)
kb9vqf	it just left TDE with an unfortunate problem
kb9vqf	work is slowly being done to remove the problem
Qu4Z	That's cool :) I appreciate all the work being done. I'll try to help when I can, but at the moment starting Trinity freezes my computer, so... well, then I installed XP for gaming and it overrode my MBR, and I haven't reinstalled grub into it yet.
KingSphinx	One of the few things I've noted as a rather notable program missing from Ubuntu since moving from Fedora is bootconf/bootconf-gui. In Fedora, I was able to use that to restore text-mode and Plymouth to my monitor's native res (1280x1024).
KingSphinx	Without it, it's stuck at 640x480, rather ugly-looking on my screen.
Qu4Z	Eww, that is ugly :/
KingSphinx	Whee, found a scipt that might fix that problem. Just gotta reboot to see if it's fixed.
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Strangelv	What if used the de facto naming system for renaming the original applications to distinguish them from the identity-stealing imposters?
Strangelv	How about Shiveringmonkey or Singinglion. 8P
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Strangelv	Sandwalrus... Grassfish... Basaltfly... Vacuumworm... Asphaltcicada... Featherhornet... Plastictrilobite... Hotmoose... Bedrockbee... Speechflatworm... Eggheadnematode... Gentlenuke... Angrypuppy... Gillhamster... Colorvamp... Arthriticsnake... Volcanotulip... Landlemur...
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Strangelv	Any luck?
KingSphinx	With Plymouth? Yeah, I got it at the proper res and everything. Bit of a PITA with Ubuntu compared to Fedora, which is really saying something.
Strangelv	So this is a problem you're running into with Ubuntu... what file did you change to set the resolutions?  Something I ran into trying to install Natty -- even the server version -- was that even in xetx mode it wants to be in a resolution my easily tripped up 17" display can't handle
KingSphinx	http://paolobernardi.wordpress.com/2011/05/01/fix-plymouth-on-ubuntu-after-installing-nvidia-or-ati-proprietary-drivers-for-ubuntu-11-04-natty/ <--- That's where I got the fix.
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Strangelv	In this case I can't get it to work with the liveCD or after a default install.  What is Plymouth?
KingSphinx	Plymoputh's pretty much the boot-up screen.
KingSphinx	*Plymouth
Strangelv	hmm
aalecs	plymouth sucks.. :D
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Xu_R	PS: Installing in /usr will conflict with kde4. sigh.
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: just wondering, does the core modules still stuck on autotools work with --no-copy-dt-needed-default?
kb9vqf	no idea
Xu_R	because if not, I'm not going to get very far in packaging
Xu_R	because openSUSE has made it default
* Xu_R notes that if Ubuntu uses it, then we should be fine
kb9vqf	are you running into problems?
kb9vqf	what does that flag do?
Xu_R	kb9vqf: not yet with cmake. I'm concerned with autotools
Xu_R	kb9vqf: actually, never mind. seems that Ubuntu is using that linker flag already
Xu_R	we're safe. phew.
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	please don't give me a heart attack like that again :)
Xu_R	kb9vqf: Yes, I just went to check ubuntu's linker...
Xu_R	kb9vqf: sorry :P
kb9vqf	np
* kb9vqf is sick of xcomposite bugs
Xu_R	:-\
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karl__	hi, anyone know how to set the language of trinity to german ?
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* Xu_R is frustrated - his weekdays are jampacked DX
* Xu_R heads to sleep...
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-calvino.freenode.net- [freenode-info] why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
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MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: hey just had a talk with Robert
MobileTurkey	I have been really busy putting my house back in order but hopefully my workstation area will be up by monday or tuesday(its getting there)
kb9vqf	ok
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: awesome news about the TDE integration patches though, I am really glad they are very open
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	I just don't have time to rebase the patches right now...
MobileTurkey	also I ran into another ODBC problem with Qt3 while compiling
MobileTurkey	I won't be able to work it through till i get my desktop up and running
kb9vqf	ok
MobileTurkey	anyway just stopping it.
kb9vqf	when you do please fix the GIT :)
MobileTurkey	also did you see ilya actually sent in a patch :D
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: yes will do.
kb9vqf	Yes, I noticed
kb9vqf	a rare occurrence that :)
MobileTurkey	it might be related to another qt3 patch i saw about OBDC
MobileTurkey	but one that is not to go unnoticed.
MobileTurkey	If we encourage it, maybe (s)he will be motivated to be a pal and bring in more!
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	hang on
MobileTurkey	ok
MobileTurkey	I am going to pull in the patch
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: Ummmm
kb9vqf	that is for Amarok
kb9vqf	which is NOT IN GIT
MobileTurkey	ahhh I just realized that
MobileTurkey	when I looked.
kb9vqf	I just pushed it into SVN (revision 1251260)
MobileTurkey	>_>
MobileTurkey	awesome
MobileTurkey	either way it's there.
kb9vqf	you may want to correct your message :)
kb9vqf	lest he think we are a bunch of bumbling buffoons ;-)
MobileTurkey	something along those lines
MobileTurkey	drunken monkeys with keyboards
kb9vqf	:)
MobileTurkey	I thought you handled the k9copy thing well also, you seem to have a knack for administrative skills relating to legal spects.
MobileTurkey	aspects'
MobileTurkey	anyway I have to go. I'll try and stop in tomorrow
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: Our messages crossed in the Ether... :-/
kb9vqf	I'll let you handle it :)
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KingSphinx	I don't *think* it's GNOME-related, but I'll ask anyway: Could my virtual terminal issue in Trinity be related to having Unity installed as well?
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MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: do you manually update the patches page on the website or does it just sync up to the mirror?
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* KingSphinx somehow got Linux to crap itself after closing Mupen64Plus
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: ?
* Xu_R has been fighting to get this Norton crap off his computer...
kb9vqf	hello
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Piki	hi
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d33tah	hi
d33tah	any qt guru there?
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Xu_R	woah
Xu_R	did samelian just reply to trinity-devel?! :o
Xu_R	so samelian is alive... XD
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xispirito	it's true, kde 3 still live?
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l0ner	anyone here?
xispirito	yeah
l0ner	good thing to hear
xispirito	=)
Borg^Queen	gn to all
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xispirito	!TQT
tbottu	xispirito: Error: "TQT" is not a valid command.
xispirito	!tqt
tbottu	xispirito: Error: "tqt" is not a valid command.
xispirito	!help
tbottu	xispirito: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
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MutantTurkey	finally back online. I also got fired for complete bs (they just wanted to kick me out because I started calling their BS). lots of free time now!
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Xu_R	damnit. missed calvin by a second. >_>
Xu_R	... or rather, 1 1/2 hours ._."
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TokRa	Hello there
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MutantTurkey	basement flooded again...
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sultan2	Z_God: Are you a Psi+ user?
Z_God	sultan2: yep :)
sultan2	haha
sultan2	I get you many times
Z_God	you're also using Psi+? :)
Z_God	many time?
Z_God	times*
sultan2	On how many channels you are on at the same time?
sultan2	No, I'm using Gajim.
sultan2	I like Psi more
sultan2	But since my interest is to gain more Jabber/XMPP users, I'm using Gajim and reporting on (many) bug
Z_God	why do you use Gajim then?
sultan2	^
sultan2	Z_God: I get you in many channels (IRC & XMPP)
Z_God	I'm only on the psi-dev conference right now
sultan2	Then it's a nice coincidence ;-)
Z_God	you have another nick there? :P
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: DX
Xu_R	it's been rain this whole week... x_x
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sultan2	Join to http://identi.ca/group/trinity
sultan2	Please open an official account of http://identi.ca/trinitydesktop ;-)
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MutantTurkey	Xu_R: ... yeah my whole basement flooded.
MutantTurkey	my $100 headphones and my bass amp are basically dead.
MutantTurkey	:|
MutantTurkey	this is just ridic.
Xu_R	:| dude... that sucks
Xu_R	at least the rain ends this week...
MutantTurkey	yeah...
MutantTurkey	not super reassuring
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: either way this whole ordeal is a giant pain in the arse.
Xu_R	must be.
MutantTurkey	like 5-6 times flooded in the past few weeks
MutantTurkey	I am just pissed pissed piseed.
MutantTurkey	all of my stuff is ruined, my basement soaked, months of headaches from this crap
Xu_R	:(
MutantTurkey	:
MutantTurkey	:|
MutantTurkey	seriously my entire studio project is in the crapper, my band practice is henceforth on hold
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KingSphinx	Well, my computer's managed to scare the poop out of me twice today... -_-
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mrdesk	has anyone had problems with kwifimanger?
mrdesk	mine doesn't work far as I can figure
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kb9vqf	mrdesk: I use knetworkmanager instead
kb9vqf	although there is no problem with kwifimanager AFAIK
mrdesk	oh i recognize that name
mrdesk	can I just apt-get install it or do I have to hunt for it?
mrdesk	is the package named knetworkmanager?
mrdesk	sweet got it hooah
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: assuming someone wrote the interface for Udisks hell to the API that is planned out, would it even provide all of materials that hal would?
MutantTurkey	and they are both accessed through dbus...
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 508 filed by albator78@libertysurf.fr.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=508 minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Kickoff menu unstable
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MutantTurkey	TIL subwoofers won't work well without their containers.
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay, building qt3 (seems I am the only one who get stuck here :P)
MutantTurkey	error cannot find lib qt-mt
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MutantTurkey	error cannot find lib qt-mt
MutantTurkey	error cannot find lib qt-mt
MutantTurkey	it's the qt3 multithreaded
MutantTurkey	but I have the -thread flag enabled?
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Fat-Zer	hi, what qt paches are curently required to compile trinity from svn?
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Fat-Zer	hi, what qt paches are curently required to compile trinity from svn?
Xu_R	you should just grab qt3 from the trinitydesktop git if you want the latest ^_^
* Xu_R points to git.trinitydesktop.org
Fat-Zer	trinity git?
Fat-Zer	ok... thanks
Fat-Zer	is there only qt3 in the git now? or i'm looking on wrong repository?
Xu_R	there should be a few things there...
Fat-Zer	yes...
Fat-Zer	and what's plans? the project is going to completely migrate to git from offitional kde's svn?
Fat-Zer	do you know?
kb9vqf	yes we are
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Fat-Zer	how to create patch if only one version have some files?
Fat-Zer	diff -ru qt-x11-free-3.3.8b qt-x11-free-3.3.8d |head
Fat-Zer	Only in qt-x11-free-3.3.8d: ChangeLog.immodule
Fat-Zer	Only in qt-x11-free-3.3.8d: README.immodule
Fat-Zer	...
MutantTurkey	o/
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: sup doode
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: you sholdn't have to patch it.
Fat-Zer	I want to create a patch for the old version of qt...
Fat-Zer	it will be easyer to attach it the ebuild...
MutantTurkey	you should just use the new version
MutantTurkey	it's got a tonn of patcvhes
Fat-Zer	omg.... really... at least 8000 lines...
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MutantTurkey	yeah...
MutantTurkey	just pull from the GIT.
Xu_R	gah. I try to access mirrors.kernel.org just when it goes down for maintenance.
Xu_R	>_>
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MutantTurkey	Xu_R: it's been down for like a week
Xu_R	no, mirrors.kernel.org has still been working forme...
Xu_R	kernel.org was still working...
Xu_R	just a few hours ago kernel.org went to a webpage that said "Maintenance"...
MutantTurkey	yeah the mirrors have been down though
MutantTurkey	I know this for sure.
MutantTurkey	at least having trouble
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MutantTu1key	dude I can't even build qt3
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kb9vqf	Maintinence complete
kb9vqf	If any problems are noted poke me please :)
kb9vqf	*Maintenance
NeKit	can't compile Konversation
NeKit	http://pastebin.ws/cay8wk
NeKit	I don't know where libtool 2.2.6b Debian-2.2.6b-2ubuntu1 did come from at all, as I'm using Gentoo
NeKit	deleting libtool in konversation folder and doing ln -s /usr/bin/libtool . helped
NeKit	but it's still strange
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grand_grunt	Hi :)
grand_grunt	I have no access to gopher URLs on Konqueror-trinity, is this not supported or is there something to configure here?
grand_grunt	there is no kio-gopher for trinity, answered
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 509 filed by e_r_i_c@gmx.net.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=509 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, audacious unable to add files to the playlist/ play files
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 510 filed by e_r_i_c@gmx.net.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=510 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, gcdmaster crashes opening files
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Xu_R|School	hello world
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 511 filed by dzfixes-box1@yahoo.co.uk.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=511 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Kaffeine-trinity crashes while tuning dvb-t device
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Fat-Zer	hi, what version of libpng is required to compile qt out of git?
Fat-Zer	i've got an error: ?struct png_info_struct? has no member named ?trans_values?
Fat-Zer	and really there is no such field in that struct in png.h
Fat-Zer	ok... found a patch...seems it works
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer:sup?
kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: Please send the patch to the mailing list :)
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Fat-Zer	i'm not sign for maillist...
Fat-Zer	it's from gentoo kde3 overlay.
Fat-Zer	http://git.overlays.gentoo.org/gitweb/?p=proj/kde-sunset.git;a=blob_plain;f=x11-libs/qt-meta/files/qt-3.3.8-libpng14.patch;hb=HEAD
Fat-Zer	can somebody write about it in the mailing list?
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kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: Thanks for the link; it has been applied to Qt3 in Trinity GIT
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taido_7	hi everyone :) Does anyone know how to disable a application that auto-starts on boot?
taido_7	i want to disable the "auto-start" of ksmarttray
taido_7	my ~/.kde/Autostart/ folder is empty :)
kb9vqf	You will need to create a new Autostart file that sets Hidden=true for the offending application
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Fat-Zer	may be somebody have the same trouble?
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Fat-Zer	hi
Fat-Zer	i'm failed to compile kdelibs from svn
Fat-Zer	seems it's becouse config.h created bys cmake doesn't includes while compilation
Fat-Zer	any ideas?
Fat-Zer	here is my log: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/475428/
kb9vqf	what happens if you add a line #include <config.h> to dcop/dcopserver.cpp?
Fat-Zer	it works, if i add "-include /path/to/config.h" to the compiller options.
Fat-Zer	and call the gcc by my self
Fat-Zer	i think it's the same...
Fat-Zer	please just write something as i know my client isn't down again =))
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Fat-Zer	seems i've got crappy client... can somebody write my last messages?
Fat-Zer	and not only my...
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MutantTurkey	o/
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: around?
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTurkey	okay I am getting some error from building qt
MutantTurkey	let me pastebin
kb9vqf	if it's the ODBC stuff I can't help right now
kb9vqf	I am unfamiliar with the ODBC cod
kb9vqf	*code
MutantTurkey	its not odbc
MutantTurkey	http://pastebin.com/mVbYz032
kb9vqf	oh great :(
kb9vqf	you may need to manually set QTDIR
kb9vqf	other than that I don't know
MutantTurkey	okay
kb9vqf	something isn't finding the library that was built
kb9vqf	I would verify that the library actually WAS built first of all :)
MutantTurkey	okay
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Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: and what about kdelibs?
Fat-Zer	can somebody reproduce it?
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kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: It works for me :-/
kb9vqf	If adding the #include <config.h> worked then I'll commit it to SVN
Fat-Zer	it works for 1 file... but it should be included into many others... it's not right solution...
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	then there is some other problem on your system
kb9vqf	as I don't experience the problem I can't help unfortunately
kb9vqf	examine your log files carefully for any problems
kb9vqf	and good luck :)
kb9vqf	oh, and I would ask on the mailing list
kb9vqf	others may have run into something similar already
kb9vqf	or at least have some idea of what to look for
kb9vqf	I wish I could help further...
Fat-Zer	thanks for encorage=)
Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: you have got latest tqtinterface?
kb9vqf	yes, of course :)
kb9vqf	You must use the latest Qt3 and tqtinterface
Fat-Zer	yes... i know...
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: looks like it was already built
MutantTurkey	in qt3/lib
MutantTurkey	so I don't know whats up
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: EVEN WEIRDER
MutantTurkey	when I go into the directory (without using the package building scripts) it just builds ok.
MutantTurkey	well I didn't do a clean build, but I went in and did make, and it went okay
MutantTurkey	oh not true, I lied
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Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: can you show list of your qt3 includes?
kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: What do you want to see exactly?
Fat-Zer	a couple of minutes.... i'll check one thing
Fat-Zer	ls /path/to/qt3/install/directory/include
Fat-Zer	anyway... the rison of mistake:
Fat-Zer	includes for qt are installed with command: cp include/*\.h "${D}"/${QTBASE}/include/
Fat-Zer	and in git there is a config.h file
Fat-Zer	so it's includes to he project insted of cmake's file...
Fat-Zer	[facepalm]
Fat-Zer	*the project
Fat-Zer	i think this include and some other should be moved to private directory
Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: thoughts?
kb9vqf	oh, nice
kb9vqf	that's why it worked on Debian
kb9vqf	good work in tracking it down :)
kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: Fixed in Trinity GIT
kb9vqf	be sure to remove the offending config.h file from your system include directory
kb9vqf	let me know if you run into any problems from the patch
Fat-Zer	thanks... tracking such things can be a real pain in ass... but after all comes something like a developer orgasm... but it isn't worth of it...
Fat-Zer	thanks for fast fixing
Fat-Zer	i'll give a note if i fall into some troubles
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: it's building its building!
MutantTurkey	:D
kb9vqf	L)
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	What did you do?
MutantTurkey	I just built it without any flags.
MutantTurkey	I was using a bunch of flags that David put it, instead i just did ./comfigure -thread -fast
MutantTurkey	and it worked
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: now to install, I just do make install DESTDIR=/opt/qt3?
kb9vqf	It's been a while
kb9vqf	I think that should work
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	also, can I stop it from prompting me?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: doesn't seem to do it.
kb9vqf	well, make install works
kb9vqf	you may need to set the prefix in ./configure
kb9vqf	no, you can't stop it
kb9vqf	but you can feed it what it wants to see
kb9vqf	see the Debian rules file for Qt3 :)
kb9vqf	Actually Debian might patch ./configure to stop the prompting
kb9vqf	not sure OTOH
MutantTurkey	can't we just make the change upstream?
MutantTurkey	I mean I have never seen a project do this
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NeKit	will Trinity build under Qt 4.7?
MutantTurkey	NeKit: Qt4 migration is underprogress
MutantTurkey	you can check the roadmap on the website :)
NeKit	no, I mean, some class was removed in 4.7 and building fails
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kb9vqf	NeKit: Qt4 work has been suspended pending evaluation of alternatives
kb9vqf	I see no compelling reason to use Qt4 at this time
kb9vqf	NOTE: I am not saying we will not use Qt4 at all, or in little pieces
kb9vqf	First some work has to be done to remove the last TQt3/Qt4 conflicts
kb9vqf	and right now the dev team is busy with other tasks
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay, this make install thing isn't working :|
kb9vqf	ugh
kb9vqf	what is the error?
kb9vqf	Also, this may help you some: http://git.trinitydesktop.org/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=Trinity%20Desktop%20Environment%20Packaging&h=7874557c862c12b4fd1ffa6d2bc9f694dc00958d&hb=701118f76c13cfa73f1e2c8658d7ffb08bdc63f9&f=ubuntu/maverick/dependencies/qt3/debian/rules
MutantTurkey	still nothing
MutantTurkey	yeah I looked at the rules
NeKit	I'm trying to build Trinity from SVN on Gentoo
NeKit	compilation of plastik.cpp and asteroid.cpp fails
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MutantTurkey	with what error?
NeKit	let me upload the log
kb9vqf	My hunch is you don't have the latest Qt3 built and installed...
NeKit	hm, where is latest qt3 can be found?
NeKit	I just applied trinity patch
NeKit	it's not in SVN?
MutantTurkey	the git is where we have qt3
MutantTurkey	git.trinitydesktop.org
MutantTurkey	it's in main/dependencies/qt3/
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: Can you look into this for me?
kb9vqf	http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::2988
kb9vqf	I don't really have time right now, but legal stuff has to be done...
Xu_R	ok
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KingSphinx	Wheeeeee... apparently, if I want to install the current Kubuntu desktop, it wants to remove the kubuntu-default-settings-kde3 package.
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KingSphinx	Not that it matters too much, I might have to reinstall Ubuntu 11.04 anyway. Apparently upgrading Trinity to 11.04, then installing ubuntu-desktop is not a great way to get stuff like Ubuntu Software Center, because I have to use sudo aoftware-center in terminal before Software Center will actually install anything. :(
KingSphinx	*software-center
kb9vqf	Isn't Ubuntu fun? :-P
KingSphinx	Yes, very. :P
kb9vqf	And yes, the two default-settings packages are incompatible
kb9vqf	no way around that really
kb9vqf	hence the name "default" settings :)
KingSphinx	(there *is* some truth in that statement, it is sort of fun seeing what's wrong and how to fix it.)
KingSphinx	Would it hurt to remove default-settings-kde3?
kb9vqf	you'll lose a lot of stuff
kb9vqf	that is, you will have to reconfigure KDM
KingSphinx	...so it would hurt.
kb9vqf	yes
KingSphinx	Fun stuff.
kb9vqf	it won't permanently break anything
kb9vqf	but you would have a lot of reconfiguring to do :)
kb9vqf	Honestly I don't care too much about KDE4
kb9vqf	I maintain minimal compatibility...but that's it
KingSphinx	KDM doesn't work properly for me anyway, if I try to log into GNOME or Unity with it, all I get is device icons and the GNOME wallpaper.
kb9vqf	you need to use the display manager that is specific to your desktop environment
kb9vqf	no one follows the standards any more
kb9vqf	:-P
KingSphinx	*rolls eyes* So much for cooperation in the Linux community...
KingSphinx	The community can be great, but sometimes they can do things that leave me with a headache >_>
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	and now that everyone is trying to change everything in a head-over-heels attempt to mimic Apple and make your $1000 computer into a $100 smartphone...
kb9vqf	well...
kb9vqf	breakage is the norm nowadays :(
kb9vqf	Trinity is designed in the old workstation fashion, so it may be "hard" to set up but then it is stable and powerful
kb9vqf	vs. easy to setup and useless
KingSphinx	Hate to say it, but Trinity and KDE4 seem to be one's few hopes for a sane traditional desktop (don't laugh, Plasma's default desktop is nicely laid out IMO)
* kb9vqf laughs anyway
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	Frankly I hate what KDE4 did--it only looks "good" when compared against some of those insane alternatives
KingSphinx	Like I've said before, I don't hate the 4 series; I love how extensible Plasma can be. 3.whatever has its uses though, and I appreciate that too.
kb9vqf	I'm biased :)
kb9vqf	take what I say with a truckload of salt
kb9vqf	All I know is that KDE4 is completely unusable for me on my workstations and servers
kb9vqf	it reminds me of a poorly designed tinkertoy
kb9vqf	but then again, I use the terminal about 30%-50% of the time even in my Trinity sessions, so I may be more of a "power user" than normal :)
KingSphinx	Even the insane interfaces like Unity and GNOME 3 (which isn't really "bad",  just seems to be following the same "tablet-on-desktop" route everyone's taking now) have their strengths...
kb9vqf	Yes, but their weaknesses line up with the work I need to do on a daily basis
kb9vqf	They are nice for salespeople, or Grandma, etc.
kb9vqf	but not for hardcore engineering or physics work
KingSphinx	Yeah, I realize that. For the average Joe who just dawdles on Facebook, Unity's practically foolproof.
kb9vqf	Call me old fashioned, but I don't expect to pick up my computer and carry it with me :)
kb9vqf	and since I'm chained to a desk when using it I want it to be as powerful as possible
KingSphinx	Even on something like a laptop, I'd rather use a more traditional desktop.
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	however when I *do* bring a computer with me I still don't expect to be as productive as at my primary workstation for a variety of reasons
kb9vqf	and that is where the other interfaces start to shine
kb9vqf	in low productivity situations
kb9vqf	I think in most cases you can take the tablet away from the user and have his/her productivity barely affected
kb9vqf	unless some heavy duty engineering went into it and he/she is linked up with a larger computer somewhere else
kb9vqf	Just my $0.02 :)
kb9vqf	frankly the human->tablet interface is going to be suboptimal no matter what UI is running on it
KingSphinx	Hmm... I wonder if stuff like the default-settings conflict would still happen once TDE moves to the .trinity namespace rather than .kde3?
kb9vqf	just by virtue of the fact that the screen does not fill the entire human retina, and that the input device does not allow for more than a couple of fingers to be in use at once
kb9vqf	going back on topic... :)
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	wallpapers
kb9vqf	sounds
kb9vqf	icons
kb9vqf	we are close
kb9vqf	but some more stuff has to be moved
kb9vqf	and I don't have time to do it :)
KingSphinx	You can only work as fast as the amount of people you have that are willing to work...
kb9vqf	an hour spent improving KDE4 compatibility is an hour lost in making Trinity better on my end
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	I wish we had more devs
kb9vqf	oh well
kb9vqf	there's no glamour here
kb9vqf	being a dev for Trinity that is
kb9vqf	so people don't help out :(
KingSphinx	At the very least, Trinity's a shining example of the nature of open-source software... normally, once a product reaches EOL, it's dead, but you've proved (or "you're proving", whichever's right) that just because a product's been abandoned by its original developer doesn't mean it's dead by any means.
kb9vqf	Yes :)
kb9vqf	If Windows were open source I'd be doing the same thing to XP
kb9vqf	but it isn't and so Microsoft lost my business
kb9vqf	their new UIs stink
KingSphinx	Much as we'd like to dream, there ain't no way that Windows will go open-source. :P
kb9vqf	definitely not worth $100-$200 a pop
kb9vqf	yep, I know
kb9vqf	I found the next best thing and have been improving it ever since :)
kb9vqf	and found out it's better in some areas along the way
KingSphinx	If it did, I'd have a very bad feeling that Linux would become even less significant...
kb9vqf	very true
kb9vqf	on desktop platforms
kb9vqf	servers are very entrenched in Linux
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 512 filed by eseesehache@yahoo.es.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=512 needs packaging, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Knmap: Missing package
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Xu_R|School	kb9vqf: I tried to look into the legal issue
kb9vqf	and?
Xu_R|School	but I want to wait for the kde4 team to react first
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	I suppose that is acceptable
Xu_R|School	because they're "violating" too with the same images....
Xu_R|School	furthermore, I can't access the bug report, so I have to see what happens with a limited view.
kb9vqf	ok
KingSphinx	Wait, wha? Legal issues?
Xu_R|School	KingSphinx: opensuse's legal team is complaining about some images in kstars
Xu_R|School	I'm not really sure their reasoning or such
Xu_R|School	but kde4 would also violate that if it were true, so I'm waiting for the opensuse-kde4 team to make their move.
Xu_R|School	well, i'm off. period's over. later
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KingSphinx	Woke up early enough to do a clean reinstall of Ubuntu... but I went with Kubuntu 11.04 64-bit (yes, I know, I'm a terrible person. Needed a clean system, and wanted to make use of my processor since it *is* 64-bit...)
KingSphinx	Oh well, guess I'll wait for the next version of Trinity to get it back. ^^;
KingSphinx	So far, everything's running fine, though it does feel a bit odd dual-booting Kubuntu 64 and an old 32-bit Windows install
kb9vqf	You can use the nightly builds if you want
kb9vqf	that is what I have been recommending
kb9vqf	they should be stable enough for daily usage, and if you run into problems then let us know--it is still in development so we'd like to fix them before release
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Z_God	kb9vqf: is there any recommended distro/version for testing the nightlies?
kb9vqf	I use Ubuntu Maverick and Natty
Z_God	I think there are also nightlies for lucid?
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	and squeeze
Z_God	I'll install them on a lucid system I guess then :)
kb9vqf	ok :)
kb9vqf	let me know how it goes please
Z_God	alright!
kb9vqf	Z_God: One other thing: If you are upgrading an existing system with -kde3 packages installed
kb9vqf	look at this: http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/8
kb9vqf	It won't go smoothly yet
kb9vqf	New installs are silky smooth :)
kb9vqf	The upgrade process should be fixed shortly
Z_God	ok
Z_God	I guess I need to sign up there?
kb9vqf	Oh, it's not public
kb9vqf	?
Z_God	pretty much all my systems run trinity indeed, so I probably need to uninstall it yes
Z_God	yes, it asks for a login
kb9vqf	try it now
kb9vqf	The most important part there is the mention of ~/.trinity/share/config/kdebugrc
Z_God	same thing
kb9vqf	everything else is probably old and no longer applicable
kb9vqf	hmm
Z_God	"Guests are not allowed to join that pad.  Please sign in."
kb9vqf	ok, try this: http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/ep/pad/view/ro.5trB/latest
kb9vqf	I'm not opposed to giving out Etherpad accounts, I just wanted the public read only feature to work as well :)
Z_God	again, the same error
kb9vqf	grr.
Z_God	sure, I can be patient :)
kb9vqf	OK, just send me your Email address and name and I'll give an account
Z_God	ah whatever is the easiest really, I don't mind waiting a bit if you prefer to fix the public feature
Z_God	otherwise my e-mail: julius.schwartzenberg@gmail.com
kb9vqf	I don't know why it isn't working to be honest
kb9vqf	Hang on, I'll create an account
kb9vqf	Just be sure to back up your system before installing the nightly builds
kb9vqf	that installation cannot be undone :)
kb9vqf	Z_God: Email sent
Z_God	I'll use a test system
Z_God	can't I just purge the packages at some point though?
kb9vqf	well, yes, but you can't restore the -kde3 packages once they have been migrated to Trinity
kb9vqf	unless you do it manually, package by package....
Z_God	ok, it should not be a big problem for me
kb9vqf	ok :)
kb9vqf	Do you mind writing any problems/solutions on the Etherpad
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	Just add a block of text on the bottom with your upgrade experience :)
Z_God	sure, I will
kb9vqf	thanks!
Z_God	ah the replacing of kde3 packages with trinity packages should be automated?
Z_God	I guess that's the hardest part of the upgrade then
kb9vqf	it is automated
kb9vqf	Z_God: It is (mostly) automated
kb9vqf	basically I just need to rebuild the Ubuntu packages to include the automated upgrade
Z_God	ok
kb9vqf	the core packages have already been rebuilt with the automated upgrade process
kb9vqf	but they have not been tested :)
Z_God	it seems this system is actually on some nightly version already
Z_God	but one from ppa.launchpad.net
kb9vqf	yikes, that's old!
Z_God	I just took this external HD from my closet & managed to boot it ;)
kb9vqf	Trinity used to be hosted on Launchpad way back at the very beginning of the project
kb9vqf	I quickly got fed up with interminable build queues
Z_God	it's newer than oldstable it seems though
kb9vqf	yes
Z_God	which is what I run almost everywhere else
kb9vqf	I quickly determined that nightly builds on Launchpad just couldn't be done
kb9vqf	so that repository was abandoned in favor of QuickBuild
Z_God	ok
kb9vqf	it's there as legacy only :)
Z_God	I guess quickbuild was not also tweaked to work with Konq 3.5? :))
kb9vqf	and because I can't delete a PPA from Launchpad :)
kb9vqf	nope
kb9vqf	personally I use Firefox and Chrome
kb9vqf	two very nice browsers
kb9vqf	and leave Konq to what it does best: file browsing
kb9vqf	in the true Unix tradition of one program per task :-P
Z_God	yep, I have Firefox & Chromium as well
Z_God	but Konqueror is not a bad browser
Z_God	just the renderer needs an update
* kb9vqf would like to see Konq fixed for browsing, but it is infeasible for this release
kb9vqf	I have to migrate off the Qt namespace, then updating KHTML should be possible
kb9vqf	we're almost there, but kdebindings and such are blocking it
Z_God	I remember there used to be a webkit renderer kpart in suse a long time ago
kb9vqf	really!
Z_God	it would be cool to have a second kpart with webkit
kb9vqf	if you can dig up the link that would offer a running start to updating Konq :)
Z_God	yes, but it was really really long ago
kb9vqf	hey, a lot of good programs were around a long time ago :)
Z_God	I'll look at it, it must have been when suse was still shipping kde3 by default
kb9vqf	ok, thanks
kb9vqf	it would be much better than starting from scratch...
Z_God	it seems a dist-upgrade does not trigger the switch yet from -kde3 to -trinity
Z_God	I need to install the kubuntu-default-settings-trinity & kubuntu-desktop-trinity I guess to start the upgrade?
kb9vqf	no
kb9vqf	if the upgrade is not being triggered then there is a problem
kb9vqf	what did you add to your /etc/apt/sources.list file?
Z_God	the two lines from the ppa on quickbuild
Z_God	https://quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/~trinity/+archive/trinity-nightly-builds
Z_God	I have the entries for lucid
kb9vqf	there are two more you need
kb9vqf	hang on, grabbing them now
kb9vqf	deb http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-nightly-build-dependencies/ubuntu maverick main
kb9vqf	deb-src http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-nightly-build-dependencies/ubuntu maverick main
kb9vqf	except replace maverick with lucid :)
kb9vqf	without those apt can't find the dependencies needed for the upgrade process, so it doesn't do anything
Z_God	aha ok
Z_God	seems all suse releases till 10 have been taken offline :(
Z_God	I'm going to dig through my disks here
Z_God	ok, now dist-upgrade does more, but I'm not sure if it's correct
Z_God	http://pastebin.com/LL3DzUQa
Z_God	it tries to install many new -trinity packages, but also still tries to upgrade many -kde3 packages
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	it will "upgrade" your -kde3 packages to dummy transitional packages
kb9vqf	and install the new -trinity packages
Z_God	ah of course, that makes sense :)
kb9vqf	when the upgrade is done you can remove all the dummy -kde3 packages :)
Z_God	but network-manager-kde-kde3 is held back
kb9vqf	not sure why
kb9vqf	try running the upgrade and seeing what doesn't upgrade
kb9vqf	then you can try installing, for example, network-manager-kde-kde3 with apt-get install and it will print out what is holding it back
Z_God	ah, there is no installable candidate for network-manager-tde
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	it's there...somewhere....
kb9vqf	hang on
kb9vqf	network-manager-kde-trinity
kb9vqf	so there is a problem with the upgrade handling package
kb9vqf	I'm not surprised :)
kb9vqf	are any other packages held back?
Z_God	nope, that's the only one
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kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	I'll fix it
kb9vqf	but the fixed package won't be available for 24-48 hours
kb9vqf	(due to mirror problems the project is currently experiencing)
Z_God	ok, let me know if you prefer me to wait with upgrading then or whether I should continue now without this package :)
kb9vqf	it's up to you
kb9vqf	I don't really care one way or the other
Z_God	alright, I'll go ahead then
kb9vqf	when the update is published knetworkmanager will automatically upgrade
Z_God	ok :)
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Z_God	I think I was confused and there was actually a gecko kpart
Z_God	I remember it was very unstable at the tme
Z_God	would be around kde 3.4 or smth I think
Z_God	I'm still searching ...
Z_God	ok, now it asks whether I want kdm-kde3 or kdm-trinity as my default dm
Z_God	this also seems like a bug
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Z_God	seems I found the kpart!
Z_God	http://rpm.pbone.net/index.php3/stat/4/idpl/12107888/dir/redhat_8.x/com/kdebindings-kmozilla-3.0.5a-2.i386.rpm.html
Z_God	it's a kpart that provides the gecko engine in konqueror
Z_God	but it seems to be for a really old kde version and a really old gecko version ....
kb9vqf	works for me
kb9vqf	as long as the API didn't change too much we should be set!
Z_God	I'll see if i can find the real origin of the source
Z_God	btw, the upgrade finished with some errors
kb9vqf	not that old I guess: http://blogs.kde.org/node/615?page=1
kb9vqf	which errors?
kb9vqf	if it is files overwriting other files then that will be fixed in the future
Z_God	http://pastebin.com/6pA4PAt4
Z_God	I'll try installing them individually
kb9vqf	yeah, that's the same bug I am aware of
kb9vqf	should be fixed in a few day
kb9vqf	*days
Z_God	ok :)
kb9vqf	The plot thickens: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kde.redhat.user/3500
Z_God	it seems he refers to this: http://web.archive.org/web/20050404225222/http://docs.kde.org/en/HEAD/kdebase/faq/non-kde-apps.html
Z_God	not sure if that includes the kpart as well though
kb9vqf	doesn't look viable unfortunately: http://www.kde-forum.org/artikel/16856/kecko.html
kb9vqf	My original idea had been to embed an X11 window of some other browser and control it from the kpart :)
kb9vqf	webkit would be a good choice
kb9vqf	but we need to stop stomping on the Qt namespace first :-P
Z_God	http://websvn.kde.org/tags/KDE/3.0.5A/kdebindings/xparts/mozilla/
Z_God	seems it was originally there
Z_God	it seems sudo apt-get -f install immediately fixed all the problems btw
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MutantTurkey	o/
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: did you port poppler to the latest TQt interface? is it mostly just changing the names around?
kb9vqf	poppler is still maintained upstream
kb9vqf	we now provide the TQt interface to it
kb9vqf	and yes, everything execpt kdebindings and related programs are TQt ported
kb9vqf	*except
kb9vqf	On the plus side I think I found the origin of the mysterious KDM click-shutdown-and-hang bug
kb9vqf	It happens when no shutdown actions are authorized
kb9vqf	for some reason the resultant dialog has 0 size (!??)
kb9vqf	working on it :)
Z_God	getting an error from KDM now "Cannot open theme file /opt/trinity/share/apps/kdm/themes/kubuntu-trinity"
Z_God	and the login screen seems to be window managed itself!
Z_God	otherwise it seems to be working great!
Z_God	very fast :)
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kb9vqf	yep, window management of the login screen is a new feature :)
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kb9vqf	you are still running beta packages so there is no GUI option yet to turn it off, but trust me, it can be done
kb9vqf	see the kdmrc file
kb9vqf	personally I like it window managed--it offers a more unified experience and doesn't leave the user wondering "what's happening now at the blank wallpaper screen" :)
Z_God	I normally use autologin, so it I don't care much about that ;)
Z_God	yeah, it seems better indeed
Z_God	especially when you get an error dialog like I just did ;)
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	I put a lot of work into it...enjoy...
kb9vqf	more updates are coming soon BTW
kb9vqf	the shutdown menu is being fixed as I type this
Z_God	I think it's really good, remembering the awkward unmanaged dialogs from kdm in the past
kb9vqf	I've been bringing TDE into the 21st century
kb9vqf	it also has SAK support now :)
kb9vqf	No other Linux DE has that!
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Z_God	it says Konqueror is version 3.5.10 btw
Z_God	Trinity is 3.5.13 though
kb9vqf	your upgrade may not have been complete
kb9vqf	oh
kb9vqf	hang on
kb9vqf	My Konqueror says the same
kb9vqf	don't worry about it
Z_God	I saw the SAK notes in the SVN commits, but I wasn't sure what SAK is
Z_God	ok :)
kb9vqf	Secure Attention Key
kb9vqf	it prevents login spoofing
kb9vqf	which is a serious problem under Linux
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kb9vqf	I found a way to force evdev and udev to create a SEAK
kb9vqf	my acronym for "Secure Enough Attention Key" :)
kb9vqf	unless you are root, there is no way for you to know if the SAK has been pressed
kb9vqf	which prevents malicious users from creating a fake login screen and grabbing your passwords
kb9vqf	It is very close to a "true" SAK, but done in userspace
kb9vqf	I don't know if it works on Lucid though because of the older kernel
Z_God	seems good
Z_God	but I'm wondering how it deals with remote sessions
Z_God	but I never tried pressing "lock screen" on a remote kde
kb9vqf	it's still fragile
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I may have tracked it down
kb9vqf	tracked what down?
MutantTurkey	i think the variable is not DESTDIR but INSTALL_ROOT
kb9vqf	Z_God: The issue does not exist on a remote server login, so you can disable the SAK in that environment
kb9vqf	Ah, the Qt problem :)
kb9vqf	glad to hear it
MutantTurkey	I poured over your qt3 rules file, very complex x:
MutantTurkey	i think it is working though
MutantTurkey	I am going to edit the qt3 file to also accept DESTDIR is that acceptable ? then send it upstream
Z_God	kb9vqf: yes, of course, but a single set-up should be able to deal with both practise (at least that was the case at my uni)
kb9vqf	yes, I know
Z_God	in practise*
kb9vqf	as I said it is still fragile
kb9vqf	improvements are in progress :)
Z_God	ok :)
kb9vqf	but the fact remains that for many deployments we now have something no other DE has :)
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Yes, that is acceptable
MutantTurkey	along with xrandr :)
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	KDE4 has some bad looking clone I guess
kb9vqf	it looks horrid to use
kb9vqf	and doesn't work right
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: except that it doesn't seem to work completely yet. the install is only 1.99mb.
MutantTurkey	it may have just installed the lib
kb9vqf	well, keep working on it :)
Z_God	kb9vqf: I think Trinity has a lot of things that no other DE has :D but yeah it seems good such features are added
Z_God	I think 3.6 wouldn't be a bad version for the coming release
kb9vqf	I never liked the security holes
MutantTurkey	Z_God: that is the planned eventually
kb9vqf	so I've been plugging them up
Z_God	kb9vqf: great :)
kb9vqf	IMHO 3.6. should be reserved until we have kdebindings working with TQt
kb9vqf	once that happens a whole world opens up WRT Qt4
MutantTurkey	honestly Tim, I don't know how you quite manage. frankly you do an amazing job. Programming, adding features, maintaining, updating...
kb9vqf	:)
MutantTurkey	then again you do have quite the setup with those opteron cores :P
Z_God	would that allow an app to be developed with Qt4 to integrate with Trinity?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	that's why I want to hold off a but longer
kb9vqf	*bit
kb9vqf	I also want some serious beta testing of all the changes that went into 3.5.13
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: beta releases maybe?
MutantTurkey	like rc1, rc2, etc
kb9vqf	that's what the nightly build repo is now
Z_God	kb9vqf: cool :)
kb9vqf	though I suppose I could label them :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I dunno, I mean it's sort of a way to get users involved, having actual numbers
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTurkey	I am indifferent
kb9vqf	It's a good idea from that perspective
MutantTurkey	also lets users see new changes and get excited for the release
kb9vqf	technically though I would need to think about it
kb9vqf	I like the rolling release candidates right now
kb9vqf	it allows me to easily push updates in
MutantTurkey	I do to (as an arch user this is what I love)
MutantTurkey	indeed, fixes are instantanious
MutantTurkey	what do you think about having releases often though? I mean like 3.6.1 3.6.2 etc
MutantTurkey	as bug fix releases
MutantTurkey	or do we want to just shoot upstream
kb9vqf	Fast release cycles make bugs more common
kb9vqf	and make it much harder to do the kind of large overhaul I just did
kb9vqf	WRT TQt
Z_God	I just noticed interesting
Z_God	when I press the middle mouse button on my desktop
kb9vqf	Ever since Firefox switched to their fast cycle the browser has been full of bugs :(
Z_God	I get two applications listed that do not have a taskbar button
Z_God	both are called Qt-subapplication
kb9vqf	oh darn
kb9vqf	those are internal to ksmserver
kb9vqf	and should not be showing up
Z_God	I guessed that last bit ;)
kb9vqf	thanks for letting me know
Z_God	no problem :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I meant more like libreoffice style
MutantTurkey	have 3.6 concurrently in development
MutantTurkey	and merging bug fixes back into 3.5
MutantTurkey	for example
MutantTurkey	so users will get bug fixes, and then the new release with new features/fixes
MutantTurkey	so 3.6.1 would only include bug fixes
MutantTurkey	and then 3.7 would be a new release with new featuers
MutantTurkey	thats the theory
MutantTurkey	anyway... think about it
Z_God	I understand there will be two lines anyway at one point with TQt
Z_God	one compiled against Qt3 and another maybe compiled against Qt4
Z_God	seems firefox qt builds are still coming out daily btw, but against Qt4: http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/tinderbox-builds/mozilla-central-linuxqt/
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Z_God	and the gecko kpart is still in the trinity tree? http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/kdebindings/xparts/mozilla/
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Fat-Zer	hi
Fat-Zer	maybe somebody knowes, why in kdebase in CMakeList.txt there are lines like "add_subdirectory( tsak )", not something like "tde_conditional_add_subdirectory( BUILD_TSAC tsak )" ?
Fat-Zer	is there any special risones for that?
Fat-Zer	*reasons
Fat-Zer	i'll write about this to the mail list...
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Z_God	kb9vqf: I looked a bit more into this xparts stuff
kb9vqf	for what?
Z_God	to see what it was about :)
Z_God	it seems it's similar to what you wanted to implement for an alternative kpart
kb9vqf	ah, ok
Z_God	it allows embedding of any window as a kpart ans somehow sending commands to it
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	It is a nice feature :)
Z_God	the kmozillapart does not actually depend on qt build of mozilla
* kb9vqf knows more about Xorg than he wants to
Z_God	it actually works with a gtk1.2 build of mozilla
kb9vqf	it's actually in our source tree AFAIK
kb9vqf	in kdebindings
Z_God	yep, indeed
kb9vqf	it's just shut off
kb9vqf	I should look into reactivating it...a Gecko rendering engine would be a Very Good Thing for Trinity :)
Z_God	I managed to compile the xpart & gtk parts without issues with the gtk1.2 headers installed
Z_God	that seems to be still intact
Z_God	the only issue is that mozilla does not support gtk1 anymore, just gtk2
Z_God	also ubuntu dropped gtk1, so you need to add the hardy universe repository to be able to install gtk1.2
kb9vqf	I wonder what the API changes were
kb9vqf	if they aren't too major a forward port would be possible
Z_God	yes, I guess it would make sense to add a gtk2 xparts module for gtk2 apps
Z_God	and fix kmozillapart to use it
Z_God	I was already trying to compile xulrunner with gtk1.2, but I didn't succeed yet
kb9vqf	I would need some time though to actually work on it...and time is in short supply right now :(
Z_God	yeah I can imagine
kb9vqf	But I do appreciate your idea and pointer to the kpart
kb9vqf	I had no idea we even had that in our tree :)
Z_God	you even made some changes to it ;)
Z_God	I guess that was scripted though :)
kb9vqf	As part of my semi-automated conversion, yes
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	KDE3 was shedding features for some time apparently
kb9vqf	which is sad
Z_God	well, at least they are being rediscovered :)
kb9vqf	yes :)
Z_God	I was already wondering if it would be possible to embed KDE4 kparts easily with something like this
Z_God	when you compile the example notepad xpart btw, it generates a normal executable that indeed runs in a simple window when ran
Z_God	so I guess that would indeed be the window to be embedded as the kpart then
kb9vqf	Once we are off of the Qt namespace then yes, you can do fun stuff like that
kb9vqf	until then I am not sure
kb9vqf	you could try it :)
kb9vqf	actually it might work
kb9vqf	but we won't have widget level integration untill we are fully off the Qt namespace
kb9vqf	just window level integration
Z_God	I don't know anything about Qt
kb9vqf	ok
Z_God	but I guess the first thing needed would be kde4 app that embeds a single kpart
kb9vqf	sounds reasonable
Z_God	and that's all it does
kb9vqf	yrs
kb9vqf	*yes
kb9vqf	As I mentioned before I'm not too keen on doing anything for/with KDE4
kb9vqf	but I won't oppose someone that does :)
Z_God	yeah I wonder what the performance impact would be of something like that
kb9vqf	high RAM usage mostly
Z_God	and if such a KDE4 app would need to have all kinds of other background processes loaded to be able to work
kb9vqf	from loading all that KDE4 bloat
kb9vqf	the way KDE4 is designed, most likely
Z_God	that's not really an alternative for the current engine then in konq
kb9vqf	with a KDE3 app you load XLib, Qt3, and kdecore/kdeui
kb9vqf	with KDE4 you load a whole lot more :-P
Z_God	hmm ok
kb9vqf	it's a design decision (IMHO a terrible one)
Z_God	I still run Trinity on systems with 128 MB or 256 MB of RAM
Z_God	not regularly, but it seems bad to implement something that would really need more than that
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	personally, having worked with Qt4, I hate it
kb9vqf	it is slow, limited, and bloated
kb9vqf	given a choice I would not use it at all
Z_God	you prefer Qt3 over Qt4?
kb9vqf	actually, yes
kb9vqf	the only thing Qt4 really gives you is transparency
kb9vqf	the only thing is, it's not real transparency :-P
kb9vqf	it's a fake Qt-only widget level transparency
Z_God	the main Qt4 application I use is Psi
kb9vqf	like it?
Z_God	it took them some effort to port it from Qt3 to Qt4
Z_God	yep, it seems to be the best Jabber client there is
Z_God	it's light & simple
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	as long as you don't try to do anything fancy with Qt4 it's OK
kb9vqf	but the more features you add the slower it gets
Z_God	I think VirtualBox also uses Qt4
Z_God	and Opera of course
kb9vqf	yes, and compared to the Qt3 version it's slow
kb9vqf	it feels unresponsive
Z_God	I think Opera even had both Qt3 and Qt4 at the same time at some point
kb9vqf	there is a piece of engineering software that I use that uses Qt as its base
kb9vqf	the Qt3 version is clean and responsive
kb9vqf	the Qt4 version is bloated, slow, and buggy
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 513 filed by sh4dou@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=513 critical, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, KMail crashes on "Include this folder in mail checks" disable
Z_God	you think it's only because of the Qt version?
kb9vqf	pretty sure :)
Z_God	hmm... ok
kb9vqf	They try not to change the frontend much between releases
Z_God	I saw they were thinking about Qt5 already
kb9vqf	ughh
kb9vqf	which means KDE5
Z_God	it would seem good to tag on there, at least find out where the performance differences come from
kb9vqf	I know where they come from to some extent
Z_God	ok?
kb9vqf	All that fancy graphics stuff introduces lag
kb9vqf	I prefer to keep the graphics stuff actually in the graphics card (!)
kb9vqf	with xcomposite and friends
Z_God	I'm not sure what things you mean
Z_God	to my Qt4 and Qt3 apps pretty much look the same
Z_God	me*
kb9vqf	In Qt4 there is a backing store and a double buffer
Z_God	when you pick a similar theme
kb9vqf	both of which have to be updated every time anything changes on the screen
kb9vqf	basically Qt4 will slow down anything that involves redrawing a window
Z_God	and the advantage is that it allows certain effects?
kb9vqf	that means that hiding or showing widgets, clicking on buttons, etc. will be slightly slower in Qt4
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 514 filed by sh4dou@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=514 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, aKregator crashes on jpeg display.
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	doing that allows transparency in particular
kb9vqf	without xcomposite
kb9vqf	but since we have xcomposite, that continual lag is a price I am not willing to pay
Z_God	and there is no trivial way to disable these features in Qt4 I guess?
kb9vqf	no, they are embedded deeply
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 515 filed by sh4dou@gmail.com.
kb9vqf	that is one of the main selling points actually
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=515 minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, aKregator run error
Z_God	but I wonder why they wanted this then
Z_God	if they could do it though xcomposite as well
kb9vqf	Like I said--as long as you only show a few widgets Qt4 is perfecty fine
kb9vqf	but use 10, 20, 30 widgets and it is as slow as molasses
kb9vqf	because of all those backing store updates :-P
kb9vqf	then there is the entirely separate problem of the removal of features
kb9vqf	which forces repimplementation of those features in the user's program
kb9vqf	*reimplementation
Z_God	ok, I guess that's also where the Qt3support stuff came from
kb9vqf	and the software developer probably won't take the time to optimize each of those new algorithms :-P
kb9vqf	yes
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kb9vqf	everything in Qt3Support was lost in Qt4
kb9vqf	which is a sizable set of features :(
l0ner	Hi all!
Z_God	do you think it would be possible to let Qt5 bring back some of the performance of Qt3?
kb9vqf	It's up to Nokia
kb9vqf	given their track record they will probably remove even more features :(
Z_God	I can imagine things could go different now though
kb9vqf	Qt4/Qt5 are really designed for simple apps (as in the apps that belong on a phone)
kb9vqf	and not for large software quites
kb9vqf	*suite
Z_God	you saw the recent news on this new separate Qt community?
kb9vqf	no
kb9vqf	where?
Z_God	sec
Z_God	http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/09/14/1546226/Nokia-Announces-Qt-Open-Governance-Model
kb9vqf	hmm, ok
kb9vqf	but that doesn't cover the technical problems in Qt4+
kb9vqf	heck, they can't even do a floating point compare correctly any more :(
Z_God	nope, but on the wiki it says this
Z_God	The main objectives of the Governance Model are to:
Z_God	Put decision power in the hands of the community, i.e. the people who contribute to the Project&#8217;s success,
Z_God	Make it easy to understand how to get involved and make a difference
l0ner	well, qt4 was done by trolltech, now it's nokia
kb9vqf	To be blunt I don't have time to handle that
kb9vqf	that would be a whole second full-time job
l0ner	and whie trolltech target IMHO was PC's, nokia'
l0ner	* nokias is not
Z_God	yeah I can imagine it would not be so easy to join this
kb9vqf	and I would be at odds with them
kb9vqf	just as I am at odds with KDE4
kb9vqf	they want multitouch phone interfaces
Z_God	but it seems they would appreciate ideas from the community, maybe to add some Qt3 things back to Qt5
kb9vqf	and I want mouse and keyboard stuff :-P
l0ner	me too
kb9vqf	Hey, if you want to try it go right ahead :)
Z_God	yes, I am also clumsy myself with these phones & touchscreens
l0ner	but for some things i'd prefer touchscreen, like to read books
kb9vqf	Look through the stuff in Qt3Support and try to get it added bac kin
Z_God	I wonder if a single Qt could really suit both Trinity & phones at one point
kb9vqf	I bet you will run into fierce resistance
kb9vqf	NO
kb9vqf	not without severe bloat
l0ner	yep
kb9vqf	yes, touchscreens have their place
kb9vqf	Qt4 has its place
kb9vqf	bit that place is in MEDIA CONSUMPTION
l0ner	true
kb9vqf	you will NEVER create new applications, movies, books, etc. on one of those devices
kb9vqf	or if you do then the immediate question would be: why didn't you just use pencil and paper? :)
kb9vqf	the point is that those touchpads and the apps that run on them are a suboptimal human<-->machine interface
kb9vqf	always will be
l0ner	it would be a suicide to try doing something like CAD design, or simply draw on a phone/tablet
kb9vqf	yes
l0ner	i cant draw a straight line on my iTouch...
kb9vqf	there is a tradeoff between portability and efficiency of the human/machine interface
l0ner	yep
kb9vqf	and on those tables the efficiency drops so low that they are only usable for consumption
kb9vqf	hey, I should write a paper on this :)
kb9vqf	*tablets
l0ner	yep
Z_God	I never really worked much with these things, but the few times I did, I often had problems because it seems these interfaces hide all kinds of things
kb9vqf	it has to
Z_God	and I have trouble with the touching
l0ner	and tablet/portable with touchscreen which could be used to design/draw costs a lot of money (see dell latitude XT)
kb9vqf	when you primary input device (one or two fingers) covers up 1/4 of your primary output device you are guaranteed horrible efficiency
Z_God	maybe that's just me being clumsy, but sometimes you have to press the screen quite hard it seems
kb9vqf	no different than a mobile telephone that when you talk you can only hear part of the other person's speech
kb9vqf	it would make for inefficient and frustrating conversations ;-)
l0ner	Z_God: i throw my touchscreen phone out of my car window while driving. I couldn't answer it, since it didn't had keys, I got frustrated, opened window and threw it.
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	sounds like something I would want to do :)
Z_God	yeah, for some reason I always imagine people watching porn on a tablet & everything getting out of hand :P
l0ner	lol
Z_God	l0ner: wow
kb9vqf	As far as I am concerned tablets (plural) should augment the PC experience, NOT replace it
Z_God	my mobile phones with buttons are hard enough for me to use already
kb9vqf	it would be nice to have a small configurable I/O device for things like computer graphics
kb9vqf	so you put your palette on it
Z_God	my father requires a smartphone for his job, but I cannot work with that
l0ner	kb9vqf: is there any howto on porting things from automake to CMake? automake don't see Qt3 on my machine and I need kdemultimedia
kb9vqf	it is not easy
kb9vqf	I would fix the Qt3 detection problem in Autotools
kb9vqf	otherwise you will be waiting years to have Trinity on your machine
l0ner	ok, any pointer to what i shold look at? since I never used autotools...
kb9vqf	look in your config.log file
kb9vqf	there will be a detailed error message
l0ner	Z_God: one I had a smartphone that had keys which You could use to manipulate it. It was nice and usable. The modern smartphones with their tendency to remove all the keys are annoying.
l0ner	kb9vqf: ok, will look at it now.
kb9vqf	humans rely on feedback from touch all the time
Z_God	l0ner: the main issue for me is the lack of documentation on the phone itself
kb9vqf	there is a reason "touch typing" works so well :)
kb9vqf	you can't touch type on a touchscreen
l0ner	well, that's the issue too
Z_God	I don't like to take a booklet with me when need to write a message or smth and many important things are often hidden behind all kinds of menus
l0ner	kb9vqf: true, and try to answer a touch phone while driving...
kb9vqf	forget it
kb9vqf	unless you are in the market for a new car :)
Z_God	sure KDE has/had similar issues with configuration overload but it has become more managable for me
l0ner	like i wrote, I got so frustrated one trying to do this, that i threw my phone out of cars window.
kb9vqf	One of the biggest problems that I have with KDE4 is that it removes the second and third mouse buttons from the interface
kb9vqf	for all practical purposes
l0ner	kb9vqf: or a new phone
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	so immediately more clicking is required to do uncommon tasks
Z_God	really?
kb9vqf	"uncommon" being anything other than "connect me to the internet" or "check facebook"
kb9vqf	yes
Z_God	seems I did not use KDE4 much...
kb9vqf	ever notice the lack of useful context menus under KDE4?
Z_God	yes, that I did notice indeed
l0ner	kb9vqf: the biggest problem with KDE4 IMHO is akonadi/semantic-desktop/actions(or how the hell they are caling it)/plasma/bloat
kb9vqf	that's another large problem
kb9vqf	Z_God: The reason they are not there is because touchscreens have one mouse button
kb9vqf	I know there is a tap+hold RMB
kb9vqf	but it is not practical
kb9vqf	and there is absolutely no way to signal MMB
Z_God	I thought it was because they were still working on it...
kb9vqf	possibly
kb9vqf	but it is not a priority to fix
l0ner	Kde4 was projected to show-off developers kick-ass programming skills. Unfortunately it don't goes together with usability or user-friendliness of interface and machine-friendliness.
Z_God	I haven't used KDE 4 in a while though
kb9vqf	It's a different kind of interface
Z_God	the last time I checked it, it seems performance was acceptable again
kb9vqf	It's designed for phones and touchscreens
Z_God	but I haven't bothered to install it on my own system
l0ner	kb9vqf: no, it was designed for PC's, and then they changet they mind
kb9vqf	Every time someone has tried Trinity after using KDE4 I get comments on how insanely fast Trinity is
l0ner	because it's true
kb9vqf	l0ner: Qt4 was designed for smartphones
kb9vqf	so Nokia forced KDE's hand
l0ner	possible
kb9vqf	KDE didn't put up much resistance though :)
l0ner	trinity is fast
l0ner	shame on them
Z_God	I think many Trolls are part of the KDE team actually
kb9vqf	I also think KDE4 defines a "desktop" differently
kb9vqf	*"desktop PC"
Z_God	but actually I had the same with the switch from KDE 1 to KDE2
kb9vqf	they assume a certain usage pattern that lends itself to touchscreens
l0ner	in kde4 you can't truly disable the semantic-desktop. Too much apps are relaying on it. And it keeps running in the backgound eating Ram and CPU cycles
Z_God	I found KDE2 to be really really slow compared to KDE1
kb9vqf	KDE 1 and 2 were very feature limited
kb9vqf	KDE3 grew into a viable Windows replacement
kb9vqf	which says a lot about it
l0ner	yep
kb9vqf	KDE4 limited the fatures again
kb9vqf	*features
Z_God	I used both 1 and 2 a lot though
kb9vqf	I tried 2 and hated it
kb9vqf	back when
kb9vqf	bought Windows instead :-P
Z_God	it worked better for me than Windows at the time
Z_God	but that was Windows 95/98
kb9vqf	Yep, bought NT
kb9vqf	i didn't consider KDE3 to be a viable replacement until at least 3.4
l0ner	I once started discussion on the Kde forums about maintaining kde3 as kde-classic for those who had old machines or didn't like plasma
kb9vqf	and it got shot down I'm sure
Z_God	I still have a Solaris box with 3.0 or 3.1 or smth ;)
l0ner	develpoers couldn't understand how You could not like plasma
kb9vqf	I nearly got blasted full of holes for suggesting that :)
l0ner	they told one user that he was using plasma incorrectely
Z_God	yes, I was surprised as well that Trinity was never mentioned on The Dot
kb9vqf	They took a page from Microsoft  I guess
kb9vqf	Did you know it is illegal to change the look of the Windows 7 login screen?
l0ner	wut?
kb9vqf	unless you pay them $$$$ to do it for you?
kb9vqf	it's true
l0ner	oh god...
kb9vqf	you can only change the wallpaper
Z_God	because I think it only shows the greatness of the whole KDE code that people are still on the older 3.5 series as well
l0ner	that is why i hate m$
kb9vqf	Yes, and KDE4 is trying the same garbage
kb9vqf	"if you don't use Plasma the way we tell you to then you shouldn't use KDE"
l0ner	yep, it's what they wrote in that discussion
kb9vqf	Personally I like the project the way it is--we have full control over the base libraries, tremendous flexibility to try things that other DEs haven't done (SAK anyone?)
l0ner	SAK?
kb9vqf	Secure Attention Key
kb9vqf	there are other features as well
kb9vqf	that's the most recent
Z_God	I just signed up at the Qt issue tracker
Z_God	because the page says you can put feature suggestions there
Z_God	I'm about to create an issue describing the performance issue from earlier
Z_God	and maybe also mention qt3support
kb9vqf	well, don't bother with the perfomance problem until you have a test case
kb9vqf	they love to close bugs without test cases
kb9vqf	and that would just make us look stupid
Z_God	what do you think would be a good test case?
kb9vqf	bit you can complain about the missing features, that would be a good start :)
kb9vqf	Z_God: Someone would have to write a graphically complex program
kb9vqf	that uses only features that are common to both Qt3 and Qt4
kb9vqf	so something that uses lots of toolbars, etc.
Z_God	but I think it's important to focus on the things that would suit Trinity :)
Z_God	hmm
kb9vqf	(it doesn't have to actually DO anything other than maybe pop up message boxes and stuff)
Z_God	do you think it would be managable to create a test case based on TQt?
kb9vqf	That would be rejected out of hand
Z_God	ok
kb9vqf	they would try to claim the performance loss is in TQt
l0ner	kb9vqf: oh, i forgot. About including volume control for each app in arts/kmix: I looked at arts and pulse documentation and arts is actually a mixer. It takes audio streams form kde apps and mixes it to one stream. If there is a pluseaudio running it takes this stream and mixes it whit other streams it gets, and then sends everything to alsa. Volume control for each app would need some arts codin
kb9vqf	oh, cool :)
Z_God	but TQt is just abstracting right?
l0ner	kb9vqf: I don't see any performance loss
kb9vqf	I know, but it is something that they would point to
kb9vqf	We want to make it hard for them to reject the bug
Z_God	so they could suggest a way to change the code to improve the performance in Qt4
kb9vqf	that involves a full rewrite
kb9vqf	and loss of features
kb9vqf	a.k.a KDE4
kb9vqf	that's the way they want the applications to be
Z_God	hmm ok
kb9vqf	like KDE4
kb9vqf	in other words, graphically simple and featureless :-P
kb9vqf	then you won't notice much of a difference ;-)
kb9vqf	KDE3 actually accelerates a lot of stuff with tricks like inline assembly and direct Xlib access
l0ner	kb9vqf: anyway i think that it should work like this or you use plasma, or you use arts. Not both. using two mixers will cause problems. They will fight for alsa access and app streams. Thats why there were so many issues with pulse in ubuntu.
kb9vqf	in theory it shouldn't cause problems
kb9vqf	but who knows
Z_God	l0ner: arts can use the ALSA API and I think pulse provides support for that API as far as I know
kb9vqf	KDE4 is so fragile in some repects
kb9vqf	*respects
Z_God	would it be hard to write a testcase with almost the same source code for qt3 and qt4?
l0ner	Z_God: yep, but in default pulse detects arts and handles it like a normal app
Z_God	ah you want arts to be special?
kb9vqf	Z_God: I don't have time to chase after Nokia right now :)
Z_God	I guess it would involve writing a pulse output for arts
kb9vqf	If you want to, you can probably throw something together that creates lots of widgets on the screen and show the performance loss that way
Z_God	ok, I will look into that...
kb9vqf	All my experience has been with third party apps or with apps translated via TQt
Z_God	I am kind of clueless on graphics performance testing though
kb9vqf	Well, I noticed a distinctly different "feel"
kb9vqf	not sure how to quantify it
kb9vqf	other than maybe with a timer that fires on XLib button press
kb9vqf	XLib-detected button press that is
kb9vqf	and stops when the new widget is shown on-screen
kb9vqf	That alone should show a pretty good performance loss
Z_God	seems good
kb9vqf	maybe they fixed Qt4.7 a bit, but somehow I doubt it :)
l0ner	Z_God: what i really want is a standarization. So what I really like to see is kde apps outputting their audio directly to pulse, without relaing on arts, but for this to happen will be needed much programming.
Z_God	seems there is QtBenchLib
kb9vqf	I'd want the timing done OUTSIDE Qt
kb9vqf	because I have no idea if the loss is also due to late Xorg event handling
kb9vqf	also, it should be tried on multiple graphics devices
Z_God	l0ner: ok, I never used pulse so I'm not sure about the advantages
kb9vqf	Really I should probably be the one putting it together because I know how Qt and Xorg work, but I just don't have the time... (
kb9vqf	:(
kb9vqf	Let's see how opposed they are to adding in Qt3 functions again
kb9vqf	that is another make/break deal
Z_God	but I understood a Qt4 port was planned for Trinity?
kb9vqf	It's there, but performance is so dismal that I stopped
kb9vqf	Also donations are down, etc. so time is limited
Z_God	I guess such performance testing would be critical for something like this to evolve
l0ner	Z_God: apart form standariztion, things like volume control for each app, accurate latency measuring and other things that user probably wouldn't notice
kb9vqf	and then Qt was breaking simple things
kb9vqf	basically Qt4 is too much of a shifting unstable buggy slow target to warrant Qt4 support right nowo
kb9vqf	*now
kb9vqf	Especially since we have control of Qt3 now :0
kb9vqf	:)
Z_God	it seems that Qt4 performance did improve significantly over time
kb9vqf	It's still not up to par with Qt3
kb9vqf	and never will be due to the extra graphics ops
kb9vqf	I guess the question should be this: Why do you want to see Trinity on Qt4?
kb9vqf	What are we missing that Qt4 has?
Z_God	developer API
Z_God	Qt3 is probably not a popular development environment anymore ...
Z_God	I wonder now though, what the Opera people think of all this stuff, since they were always really concerned about performance as well
kb9vqf	I consider the API to be oversimplified
kb9vqf	the Qt4 API that is
kb9vqf	so that would not be a concern for mw
kb9vqf	*me
kb9vqf	We have API docs
kb9vqf	so...anything else?
Z_God	then it would be just developers ;)
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	but while this touchscreen craze is active developers for "traditional" desktops will be limited
Z_God	I'm thinking now about porting a Qt4 demo back to Qt3
kb9vqf	good idea
kb9vqf	Qt3 has a superset of most Qt4 features
Z_God	if it would show that that would improve performance, I think it would be a perfect test case :)
kb9vqf	I'd be interested in the results
kb9vqf	My testing is about a year old
kb9vqf	and since we have control of the Qt3 API we could theoretically add any usefull new Qt4 functions to Qt3 :)
Z_God	how did you test? with the trinity compilation?
kb9vqf	With pure Qt apps
kb9vqf	I compared the old and new engineering software I mentioned, VirtualBox, and the Octave GUI
Z_God	ah ok
kb9vqf	all seemed much slower under Qt4
kb9vqf	to the point where I was getting frustrated
l0ner	kb9vqf: is there a way to tell the autotools where qt3 is? my qt4 installation gets it the way of kdemultimedia ./configure
kb9vqf	there is
l0ner	kb9vqf: how?
kb9vqf	I was grabbing it :)
kb9vqf	--with-qt-dir=/usr/share/qt3
l0ner	ok, thx ;)
kb9vqf	np
l0ner	kb9vqf: I have no idea how to fix this... http://paste.pocoo.org/show/477690/
kb9vqf	It's detecting your Qt4 development library installation
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	I don't think there's an override for that either
l0ner	damn... I'll try to remove qt4
l0ner	it will be pain in my ass...
kb9vqf	you only need to remove the development headers
kb9vqf	not all of Qt4
l0ner	there is no separation betweeen qt4 and 1t4-dev in gentoo
l0ner	since in order to install qt4 you need to compile it
l0ner	*qt4-dev
kb9vqf	l0ner: Hang on
l0ner	ok
kb9vqf	you can edit the admin/acinclude.m4.in file if you want
kb9vqf	grrr, firefox hung up
kb9vqf	basically if you change one line in that file you can bypass the Qt4 detection
kb9vqf	Line 1246
kb9vqf	change
kb9vqf	kde_qtver=4
kb9vqf	to
kb9vqf	kde_qtver=3
l0ner	ok
kb9vqf	then rerun
kb9vqf	make -f admin/Makefile.cvs
kb9vqf	IIRC
Z_God	I'm trying to find a suitable demo for testing
kb9vqf	make -f admin/Makefile.common
kb9vqf	sorry
Z_God	I must say that everything in all the demos responds and appears instantly here
kb9vqf	are they simple?
kb9vqf	like one or two widgets?
kb9vqf	and are they interactive?
Z_God	I found one which is a dialog full of widgets
kb9vqf	link?
kb9vqf	ah, maybe I wasn't clear :)
kb9vqf	top level widgets
kb9vqf	not embedded widgets
kb9vqf	so things like subwindows
Z_God	if you're on ubuntu there is a package which installs all the demos with binaries
kb9vqf	or widgets stacked on other widgets that are not the parent widget
kb9vqf	which graphics card are you using as well?
Z_God	Intel X4500HD
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	well, there shoudn't be a bias then :)
Z_God	I have other comps as well ;)
l0ner	kb9vqf: It did not work, same error.
kb9vqf	in the output does it say Detected TQt3 or Detected TQT4?
l0ner	TQT4
kb9vqf	grr
kb9vqf	you reran automake and autoconf?
l0ner	yep
kb9vqf	something didn't work
l0ner	aw, damn
kb9vqf	?
l0ner	didn't save file
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	that would explain it!
l0ner	yep ;)
l0ner	i tend to forget about saving when i'm using vim
l0ner	or, rather, i try to do it using ctrl-s
l0ner	instead of :s
kb9vqf	Z_God: I don't think any of those examples are going to show the problem
l0ner	*:w
kb9vqf	They are too simple
Z_God	ok
kb9vqf	what you need is a nice complicated MDI app
Z_God	I think testcases should be simple though
Z_God	so maybe something repetitive
kb9vqf	let me put it another way: if you are losing 100us on each Xorg operation, and there are a handful of operations, you won't see the difference
kb9vqf	but the computer *may* be able to detect it
kb9vqf	now try drawing a complex window when the computer is already under load
kb9vqf	maybe thousands of operations
kb9vqf	and there will all the sudden be a noticable difference
kb9vqf	just a huch
kb9vqf	*hunch
Z_God	ok
Z_God	I think on my other system it would show up quicker
Z_God	it has a sis chip or smth
kb9vqf	:S
kb9vqf	I would concentrate on timing basic Xorg operations
Z_God	there's not even any 3d hardware acceleration
kb9vqf	so time how long it takes to process a button click
kb9vqf	or how long it takes to show() a window
kb9vqf	I bet there is a difference
kb9vqf	just because I have seen the bowels of the Qt3 and Qt4 code ;-)
Z_God	would that already work on a demo app?
kb9vqf	Yes, just get the Xlib timing stuff in place
kb9vqf	basically you have to filter XLib events
kb9vqf	to detect the button press
kb9vqf	start a system timer
kb9vqf	then stop the timer from within the Qt event handler
kb9vqf	and print the result
l0ner	kb9vqf: bawwwwww... more errors: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/477699/
kb9vqf	it doesn't know where to find your Qt3 library
Z_God	no idea how to work with these events, I need to find some docs
kb9vqf	I don't know if this will work but you can try --with-extra-libs=
kb9vqf	Z_God: I know, they are not that easy to work with unfortunately
l0ner	ok, will try
l0ner	the same
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	l0ner: --with-qt-libraries=DIR
l0ner	it worked, thx
kb9vqf	np
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Z_God	so there is also qt-compositor....
Z_God	which I would assume would be related to operations that could be done with xcomposite
Z_God	ah it's not for x11
l0ner	kb9vqf: now it don't see tqt, nor trinity... http://paste.pocoo.org/show/477707/
kb9vqf	now use the --with-extra-libs=DIR option to point to your Trinity library directory
l0ner	already did
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	l0ner: Where did you stuff your Trinity libraries?
l0ner	well, I was using everyting form the wiki
l0ner	without changes
l0ner	kb9vqf: /opt/trinity/lib
kb9vqf	oh
kb9vqf	This might be unrelated but you also need to pass --with-qt-includes=DIR to ./configure
kb9vqf	as it cannot find your Qt includes right now
l0ner	ok
l0ner	nothing changes
Z_God	kb9vqf: no idea of this is really related, but I just came across this: http://kjellkod.wordpress.com/2011/05/22/moving-to-qt5-will-that-remove-qts-performance-issues-on-linux/
Z_God	if*
kb9vqf	l0ner: I have no idea
kb9vqf	it works here
kb9vqf	look through the Debian rules files on GIT
kb9vqf	see if something is missing
l0ner	i'm thinking on dropping gentoo
l0ner	i'm getting feeling it's a mess right now
kb9vqf	Z_God: So I'm not crazy then :)
kb9vqf	Others have noticed it
l0ner	kb9vqf: which distros are you supporting apart form debian/ubuntu?
kb9vqf	I say Nokia can keep their bloated slow mess :)
Z_God	yep, I'm googling a bit and I'm finding multiple posts about this
kb9vqf	l0ner: Weel, I have someone working on RedHat
Z_God	even came across a blog post from a KDE dev complaining on Qt4 speed VS Qt3
kb9vqf	slackware might be available
l0ner	i have bad memories with slack
l0ner	arch?
kb9vqf	I just don't have time to fight with Gentoo
Z_God	but I wonder what that graphicssystem raster is about
kb9vqf	Z_God: A hack for one graphics chip only
l0ner	to be honest, nor me
kb9vqf	If you want it to work out of the box with minimal hassle try Ubuntu or Debian
kb9vqf	Anything else and you are getting another person or team involved
l0ner	I know, but I don't like both of them, ubuntu is too bloated for me, forcing me to do things i don't want to do, and debian removes software i use from repo because it's "philosophically
l0ner	" bad
Z_God	l0ner: what kind of software do you miss?
Z_God	kb9vqf: just read that one of the objectives of Qt5 is to make better use of the GPU
kb9vqf	Z_God: I'll believe it when I see it
l0ner	firefox, some things i need for mu uni.... I don't remember right now, but there was some...
kb9vqf	I have been completely unimpressed with Nokia's treatment of Qt
kb9vqf	Yeah, stay away from Debian then
kb9vqf	But if you use Gentoo then you need to be able to debug things yourself ;-)
Z_God	l0ner: iceweasel is firefox+debian patches
Z_God	the reason they do not ship it as firefox is because the Mozilla people didn't want the Debian people to include their own patches and still use the Firefox name
l0ner	I know, yet I dont know why but i don't like it
Z_God	but the Debian people want to be able to patch things themselves, it's kind of the point of having the source I'd say as well
l0ner	well, the firefox wasn't the biggest issue. There were other reasons wich I don't remember now
Z_God	kb9vqf: in case you happen to be interested, this GPU thing is mentioned here: http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/05/09/thoughts-about-qt-5/
kb9vqf	Yeah, and in the same article it sounds like they are getting rid of more stuff
kb9vqf	My instinct tells me that will be more of the "useless" traditional desktop oriented code
Z_God	I see
kb9vqf	I would love to be proven wrong
Z_God	so then a decent feature suggestion would be indeed about qt3support
Z_God	because it seems at least they are aware they should use the GPU more
kb9vqf	and they would probably reject it for the these reasons:
kb9vqf	1.) It makes the API more complicated (and our poor baby developers can't handle that)
kb9vqf	2.) It hurts performance in unspecified ways (i.e. we don't know how to add features and keep performance)
kb9vqf	3.) There's no need for the features (since most mobile phone apps have a few buttons (to pay with) and a video output widget)
kb9vqf	/sarcasm
Z_God	it seems their main objective is indeed one API to program for multiple platforms
l0ner	ok guys, I'm going to sleep
Z_God	so someone we need to convince that Qt should also stay focussed on the advanced desktop segment of apps
Z_God	which do not require mobile versions
l0ner	and tommorow I will try installing TDE on Arch
l0ner	cya
Z_God	but do require an extensive API
kb9vqf	ok, see ya :)
Z_God	l0ner: good night!
l0ner	thx ;)
kb9vqf	that would only happen when Nokia gets its fingers off of Qt completely
kb9vqf	and if someone takes over who believes the traditional desktop is here to stay
*** l0ner is now known as l0ner_away
kb9vqf	according to the tech news, I don't think that will happen
Z_God	yes, but I'm trying to come up with a decent writing for a feature request now :)
kb9vqf	everyone thinks the traditional desktop is dead
Z_God	just interested in seeing how it will be handled
kb9vqf	sure
kb9vqf	I wish you luck
Z_God	I would say your point about content creation is valid
kb9vqf	they have been less than nice to me and others about adding "old stuff" back in
Z_God	and I think Qt was also used for such applications
kb9vqf	content creation is rapidly headed for control of a very few individuals who can pay through the nose for the tools to do it :(
kb9vqf	scary thought :((
Z_God	I don't know, I see more & better free video & image as well
kb9vqf	yes, but not from tables
kb9vqf	*tablets
kb9vqf	and not from people using desktops that run tablet-oriented software
Z_God	oops, I forget the word 'editors'
kb9vqf	ah, yes :)
kb9vqf	I agree there
Z_God	I mean software like The Gimp and kdenlive
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	they are nice
kb9vqf	though OpenShot runs circles around its KDE4 equivalent
kb9vqf	but I dare you to compare 3ds max 7, for instance, to the best "modern" application available
kb9vqf	there is light years of difference there
kb9vqf	or 3ds max 9
Z_God	I don't know anything about those things
kb9vqf	or anything from the high-end professional end :)
kb9vqf	*side
Z_God	I guess the differences may be increasing, but it doesn't mean free content creation is not evolving as well
kb9vqf	It is becoming harder to create quality content without paying a LOT of money for the tools
kb9vqf	it used to be that you could just buy the one package
kb9vqf	now you have to buy the package, the desktop operating system (which is now considered "professional" and comes with an inflated price tag), the desktop computer (same applies), etc.
Z_God	which component should I pick if I'd write a suggestion as above?
kb9vqf	no idea
Z_God	I don't really know what kind of classes were in qt3support actually ;)
Z_God	there is widgets
kb9vqf	I would poke around a bit honestly
kb9vqf	in Qt3Suport
kb9vqf	the stuff I miss most are iin the painting classes
* kb9vqf can't type :-P
Z_God	ok :)
Z_God	I'm looking through the list now
Z_God	indeed typical desktop things
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	I don't make this stuff up :)
kb9vqf	though sometimes I wish I was.... :(
Z_God	ah there is a porting from Qt3 to Qt4 component :)
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	and there are a lot of missing features there
kb9vqf	look at all the places it says "rewrite your code to use this and such"
kb9vqf	but what is suggests is not actually an equivalent feature
Z_God	ok
Z_God	I wrote a piece
Z_God	I'll show it before I submit it
Z_God	http://pastebin.com/L8mY8Ek2
Z_God	kb9vqf: you think this is indeed the essence of the issue? you think you could give some examples of things that are really lacking in Qt4 now?
kb9vqf	Might work
kb9vqf	let's see what they say
kb9vqf	I think they will claim "our API is good enough"
kb9vqf	as I said I don't have time to chase Nokia down and make them add stuff to Qt
kb9vqf	:)
Z_God	you think I should name a couple of APIs from Qt3 that you are really missing now in Qt4?
kb9vqf	sure
kb9vqf	more evidence always helps
Z_God	do you have a couple in your mind? :)
kb9vqf	not really
kb9vqf	it's more like being pecked to death by ducks
Z_God	I could also write something like
kb9vqf	e.g. the painting class is missing a lot of weird stuff that Qt3 hadd
kb9vqf	*had
Z_God	especially many APIs from the painting class in Qt3 would be very useful to see again in Qt5
kb9vqf	And even then, TQt took care of a lot of the translation
kb9vqf	but the result was slow as molasses because of their graphics problems
Z_God	I see
kb9vqf	I know my biases are showing all over the place today :)
kb9vqf	but I truly consider Qt4 to be completely not worth the effort to fix
kb9vqf	it doesn't gain us anything
kb9vqf	except maybe Webkit, but that could be included elsewhere
kb9vqf	and besides if a Gecko engine is viable I would rather use that
Z_God	hehe
Z_God	did you see this?
Z_God	http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2008/02/04/qt-44-and-painting-performance/
Z_God	it seems even at nokia they can describe slow qt stuff in all kinds of ways
kb9vqf	oohh, nasty
kb9vqf	you did see their "solution", right?
kb9vqf	Qt doesn't us Xorg windows any more!!!!
kb9vqf	that means there is no way to bypass Qt and do nasty (I mean fast) things to to the windows
kb9vqf	:-P
kb9vqf	more limitations to hack around their limitations
kb9vqf	grrrr
Z_God	that seems nasty yeah
Z_God	I suppose it's X11 windows though?
kb9vqf	their alien hack is for X11
Z_God	btw. I look at QPainter and Q3Painter
kb9vqf	but it basically decouples Qt from X11
Z_God	but the first is much bigger
kb9vqf	the API you mean?
Z_God	yes
kb9vqf	yes, but for being bigger it doesn't have equivalent features from Qt3 :-P
kb9vqf	IIRC it is actually harder to do things like handle polygon drawing in Qt4
Z_God	there's a drawPolygon though
kb9vqf	I know
kb9vqf	I can't come up with examples OTOH
kb9vqf	All I remember is that there were missing things in Qt4 painting
kb9vqf	or things that were much harder to do
kb9vqf	native X11 painting in particular stunk
Z_God	they are also missing in Qt3Support?
kb9vqf	Qt3support is dead
kb9vqf	it won't be available in Qt5
Z_God	I guess it wouldn't allow X11 painting at all then?
kb9vqf	probably not
kb9vqf	which == slow
kb9vqf	in many cases :)
Z_God	yep, but Q3Painter is a wrapper around QPainter it says
kb9vqf	Sometime you should take a look at an intensive chunk of the Trinity source
Z_God	so that would mean that code based on Q3Painter could be made to work with QPainter by looking at how the wrapper works
kb9vqf	then try to match up required features with Qt4
kb9vqf	trust me, you'll get a headache fast
Z_God	but I think the direct X11 support is a good one
Z_God	because I already wrote about high performance
kb9vqf	Guess how I did TQt for Qt4 ;-)
kb9vqf	And like I mentioned earlier, it works but it's slow
kb9vqf	and buggy
kb9vqf	very buggy
kb9vqf	the native X11 stuff is completely broken
kb9vqf	and now I know why :-P
Z_God	now I added this sentence
Z_God	Especially features like directly working with the X11 window, which is needed for high performance desktop applications would make Qt more suitable again for the second category of applications.
Z_God	https://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTBUG-21503
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Z_God	kb9vqf: just for testing, I installed an old copy of SuSE 8.0 (KDE 3.0.0) to see how the kmozillapart worked with it
Z_God	here is a screenshot: http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-2qNW_UqKE8I/TnX64bVco6I/AAAAAAAAAds/YP3wlbg--mk/s576/konqueror_using_gecko.png
Z_God	the main noticable thing is the scolling bar on the right side, which is the XUL one from the modern Mozilla theme
Z_God	if it would be somehow useful to get more info or maybe a copy of the VM, I ready to help
Z_God	am^
kb9vqf	Cool!
kb9vqf	At this point the main task would be to forward-port the kpart to gtk2
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Z_God	at first sight, this appears to be trivial
Z_God	by commenting only a few lines, I got it to compile against gtk2
jentron	does trinity work on debian sid?
Z_God	jentron: should work fine
jentron	OK, thanks. I guess the question should include, are there packages, or do I have to build my own?
Z_God	this is never fully tested, but in general debian (and also ubuntu) keep compatibility with packages for older versions
Z_God	sometimes you just need to add the repository of the older version as well when some packages have been removed
Z_God	but then apt will just solve the dependency issues & install it all
Z_God	so the package for the most recent debian version will probably work the best on sid
jentron	Alright. I'll experiment with it, then. I just installed 4.6 for the first time on a system I built... I don't like it at all.
Z_God	good luck, if you enjoyed KDE 3, you will also enjoy Trinity :)
jentron	Hope so. :)
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Z_God	kb9vqf: I think I fixed everything to allow it to work with gtk2
kb9vqf	really?
kb9vqf	cool!
Z_God	there were 2 offending things
kb9vqf	does it work then on modernr Trinity versions?
Z_God	and in the gtk porting guide I read how to replace those
kb9vqf	ok
Z_God	so now it compiles
kb9vqf	great :)
kb9vqf	can you send in a patch if it works?
Z_God	I have no idea about build systems and so on
Z_God	so I edited the Makefile for now to include the right include paths
kb9vqf	that's fine
kb9vqf	send me the patch and I'll fix the bulid system
kb9vqf	*build
kb9vqf	if it works of course :)
Z_God	I think it needs to use the pkgconfig infrastructure or smth like that to find the paths
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	most of that is already in place and I can handle that end of things
Z_God	I will look at kmozillapart now & see how it'll go
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	sounds good!
kb9vqf	btw don't worry about the scrollbars
kb9vqf	I have an idea of how to fix those
Z_God	I have no idea how this is working with the newer Mozilla stuff
Z_God	I suppose I have to compile against xulrunner now
Z_God	the version on SuSE ran either against Netscape 6 or Mozilla 0.9.8, so I can imagine things changed on that side as well....
kb9vqf	yes, most likely
kb9vqf	so I guess hold off on sending a patch until you can fix the entire kpart
kb9vqf	if it works well it will probably gain you an honorable mention in the release notes :)
kb9vqf	I get KHTML complaints all the time
Z_God	I'll really a n00b at C & C++ though, so don't expect too much!
Z_God	the original stuff was apparently broken already, so it would probably take quite a bit of effort to get it to work stably
Z_God	but if it's possible get something going, who knows how things may continue :)
kb9vqf	well, this is a good learning opportunity for you
kb9vqf	and you are right :)
kb9vqf	that's the idea
kb9vqf	it's a lot easier for me to sit down with something that fails under certain circumstances and fix it
kb9vqf	I waste a lot of time in getting stuff to even compile
Z_God	I can imagine yes... also it would be a shame to have the xparts code not maintained at all, so I hope this pre-work could at least be useful if someone else would want to look further at it
Z_God	right now it tries to link btw
Z_God	but can't find the right lib
kb9vqf	well, force it manually
kb9vqf	and make a note of the needed library that can't be found
Z_God	the problem is that I also cannot find the lib ;)
Z_God	ah apparently it's called libxul instead of gtkmozembed now, let's see what happens...
Z_God	it's built!!
Z_God	I had to make similar changes to dcopc as well, but now I have a binary :)
Z_God	now I need to know what exactly is necessary to register a kpart in trinity...
kb9vqf	IIRC you just place the .so or .la file (I forget which one :-P) in with all the other kparts, then copy the .desktop file (which lets Trinity know that there is a kpart) from the source directory into the folder with all the other kpart .desktop files
Z_God	ok
Z_God	and I guess the binary & libs just need to be in a spot where they can be found..
Z_God	ok, that's done
Z_God	it seems there is an issue with dcop registration
Z_God	kb9vqf: do you know much about DCOP & what such messages mean? http://pastebin.com/g0GLxdXG
Z_God	all of this output is printed after I switch the view mode from khtml to kmozilla
Z_God	it's failing in the code after line 606 in this file: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/kdebindings/dcopc/dcopc.c?view=markup
Z_God	I did make the changes to dcopc for gtk2 as well
kb9vqf	Z_God: Could be that the protocol is now out of date
Z_God	yes, I suspect the same
Z_God	it seems this call is failing dcop_client_call
Z_God	I added some debugging messages there & it doesn't get inside the if
kb9vqf	what are the changes from this file?
kb9vqf	http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/kdelibs/dcop/dcopc.c?revision=1212479&view=markup
Z_God	while googling a bit, I actually noticed that this code was still in some KDE 4 versions O_O
kb9vqf	I am wondering if you can take the kdelibs/dcop/dcopc.c file and overwrite the kdebindings/dcopc/dcopc.c file without problems or not
kb9vqf	i.e. if changes were made to the kdelibs version to make it work with GTK
Z_God	it looks different to me
kb9vqf	ok, then I wonder what the differences in dcop_client_call between those two files are
Z_God	it's returning a gboolean
Z_God	I think that's something from gtk or glib
Z_God	I can't find dcop_client_call at all in the kdelibs dcopc.c
Z_God	I guess dcopc there means dcop client and the one I need to fix is the dcop c bindings one
Z_God	there are several spots in the method were it returns false, I'll add some debug lines to see which one is triggered
Z_God	I'm also getting quite a few warning when compiling this code btw (unused parameters mainly)
Z_God	so I guess it wasn't maintained much
Z_God	it seems dcop_client_call_internal actually succeeds....
kb9vqf	dcop is somewhat nasty in general
kb9vqf	keep tracing it I guess
kb9vqf	that's all I would be able to do
kb9vqf	once you find what is hanging it will be blindingly obvious ;-)
kb9vqf	Z_God: One suggestion for you: Change line 889 to read *reply_type = strdup( "TQCStringList" ); instead of *reply_type = strdup( "QCStringList" );
kb9vqf	err, never mind :-P
kb9vqf	QCStringList is a valid type IIRC
Z_God	maybe something is going wrong with the gboolean
Z_God	it seems to be true, but it's not entering the if
Z_God	and then result indeed stays null
Z_God	ah no I need to look more carefully at the code, success is a variable that can be FALSE...
Z_God	it seems I need to debug (or somehow learn to understand) libICE
Z_God	it's already past 4am though, so I will sleep now first
Z_God	kb9vqf: thanks a lot for all the pointers so far! this seems very interesting :)
Z_God	good night!
Z_God	(day)
kb9vqf	np
kb9vqf	glad to help
kb9vqf	and if we get a Gecko engine out of it so much the better :)
Z_God	seems cool yeah :)
MutantTurkey	o/
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: i think i have it almost
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: the make install, goes to the ../ of my INSTALL_ROOT... really annoyingh
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: It works!
kb9vqf	great!
kb9vqf	:)
MutantTurkey	yeah.
MutantTurkey	I need to figure out where some stuff goes
MutantTurkey	like translations
MutantTurkey	probably in /usr/share/
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: all hell is being raised.
MutantTurkey	basically whatever the depth a file (to be installed) is located, is the same depth they use for the source, that assumes they are equal, so i end up with files randomly scattered across my FS. files in like ../../../../ and ../../
MutantTurkey	actually, I have no idea what is going on
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: yeah... still I have no idea. it's weird. I am going to try a clean build
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Fat-Zer	hi
Fat-Zer	now i'm installed next trinity parts:http://paste.pocoo.org/show/478289/
Fat-Zer	is it ok that kcontrol doesn't display any modules?or something is broken
Fat-Zer	?
Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: any ideas?
Z_God	do you get any output when you try to launch kcontrol?
Fat-Zer	no
Z_God	maybe try installing kde-guidance now and see if you get some modules then
Z_God	it seems several are included in that package
Fat-Zer	in what module is it?
Z_God	the kcontrol modules have filenames like *kcm*
Z_God	I guess you would have to get applications/kde-guidance and see if its modules will show up
Fat-Zer	find /usr/kde/3.5/lib/ -iname '*kcm*' : http://paste.pocoo.org/show/478423/
Z_God	hmm, I'd say at least some of those should show up
Fat-Zer	may be some environment varyables are not setted?
Z_God	I have no idea...
Z_God	everything else works fine?
Fat-Zer	nothing... currently i compiled only some modules (http://paste.pocoo.org/show/478289/) and i tried to test if they works correct
Z_God	then I would suggest getting into trinity using startkde first & see how that goes
Z_God	but I know very little about how these things works, I guess that if you do not install things in standard places (to avoid conflicts with KDE4) it indeed may be a bit trickier to get it to find all its files
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Fat-Zer	Z_God: thanks, everething works..
Fat-Zer	is there any chances to attache localization to svn version?
Z_God	Fat-Zer: you should be able to install the language packs in the same way I suppose...
sultan2	Interesting! ReactOS Demonstrated to the Russian President Dmitry Medvedev http://www.reactos.org/en/news_page_67.html
sultan2	KDE can be installed on Windows
sultan2	A ReactOS KDE (Trinity) edition would be lovely xD
sultan2	When this project gets stable and usable, of course :-)
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Z_God	kb9vqf: hi :) I'm still looking through the code, but there's a part where I think I need a hint
Z_God	I found line 777 in this file is the moment things seem to appear bad: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/kdebindings/dcopc/dcopc.c?view=markup
Z_God	my problem is that I cannot find the declaration of this P that is being used throughout this code
kb9vqf	While I am not sure where P is declared, I can say that the structure is consistent with some sort of private data object
kb9vqf	so it may be similar to d->foo that is in use throughout the Trinity source
kb9vqf	Try searching for its data member "ice_conn"
Z_God	ok.. you think it will be in kdebindings or would I have to search larger parts of the trinity source?
Z_God	there are several things going on there that seem like magic to me btw
Z_God	the call on line 777, changes the reply.status that is checked on 790
Z_God	the struct is indeed in the same file...
Z_God	and P is at line 109
Z_God	ok thanks a lot, I hope I can understand things a bit better now :)
Z_God	ok, this code is just for the reception of the message that something failed
Z_God	another message that had been sent before is probably the cause of the real failure
Z_God	I wonder if there are any dcop debugging tricks...
Z_God	kb9vqf: is there an error log from DCOP that I can access somewhere or is there another way to collect errors from DCOP?
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kb9vqf	Z_God: You have to recompile dcop (in kdelibs) with debugging turned on
kb9vqf	There are #defines that control the debugging
kb9vqf	IIRC there are some in dcopserver.cpp and some in dcopclient.cpp
Z_God	ok
Z_God	and then it'll print info to stderr?
kb9vqf	IIRC yes
kb9vqf	some might be saved to a special dcop server logile
kb9vqf	*logfile
kb9vqf	the path to that file would be in the dcopserver.* files
kb9vqf	*source files
Z_God	ok
Z_God	I hope this will give me some kind of verbose info
kb9vqf	yes it will :)
kb9vqf	I have had to debug DCOP once before
Z_God	ok, great :)
kb9vqf	It is not fun at all
kb9vqf	good luck :)
Z_God	I suspect that the dcopc is out of date or smth with the protocol
kb9vqf	that is my guess as well
kb9vqf	too bad there is no changelog for DCOP
Z_God	I hope I won't have do go through all kinds of special ways for C <> C++ conversion
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l0ner	?
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Z_God	when I try to compile kdelibs I get this error: Unknown CMake command "tde_add_library"
Fat-Zer	ÆÔ× ÛÙ ÅÒÕËÕ ÙÝØÕ ÃÆËÔÛÔÐÙ ÉÕÁÝËÕ ÛÅ,
Fat-Zer	and is there some warnings before it?
Z_God	nope
Z_God	I'm checking out the SVN tree now, maybe it'll work better
Z_God	I did manage to compile with debuild somehow
Fat-Zer	and from what source was sources you tried to compile just now?
Z_God	latest nightly build sources
Z_God	for ubuntu lucid
Z_God	seems SVN is working better
Z_God	compiling now :)
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: the make install command is sort of freaking me out
kb9vqf	how so?
kb9vqf	don't you have any stock Qt3 packaging scripts that you can reference for your distro?
MutantTurkey	I do.
MutantTurkey	and they are using an identical commmand
MutantTurkey	either way, they don't pull from git.
MutantTurkey	which is why it is weird
MutantTurkey	they also use
MutantTurkey	make INSTALL_ROOT=${pkgdir} install
MutantTurkey	what is happening to me, reproducably, is that there are a ton of ../ moves (and like ../../ and ../../../
MutantTurkey	so instead of installing to /home/calvin/trinity/dependencies/qt3/pkg it ends up in  /calvin/trinity or /calvin
MutantTurkey	all over the place
MutantTurkey	and thne a FEW are in the actual dir.
MutantTurkey	weird huh?
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kb9vqf	no kidding
kb9vqf	I wonder why I don't see that behaviour
MutantTurkey	i can't even comprehend
MutantTurkey	I did a clean install today and still had it.
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MutantTurkey	they are all over
MutantTurkey	bin, master and  plugins are in ../../../
MutantTurkey	bin, imageformats inputmethods lib phrasebooks templates are in ../../
MutantTurkey	whoops, that should have been 4 and 3 parent dirs
MutantTurkey	bin and translations are in ../
MutantTurkey	and in ./ are doc include lib and translations
MutantTurkey	can't understand :|
Z_God	great dcopserver gives me "Corrupt data!" on the standard error!
Z_God	seems that will be another dig again...
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Z_God	kb9vqf: ever ran into something like this? http://pastebin.com/vggcz258
Z_God	I already compared the code in dcop that generates this error to the code at the time when this plugin was still updated and that fuction is the same
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Z_God	is there a way to print the contents of a TQByteArray or TQString to a terminal?
Fat-Zer	std::cout<<(const char*) tqstr;
Fat-Zer	no?
kb9vqf	No, I have never seen the "Corrupt data!" message
kb9vqf	printf(TQString("foo").ascii());
kb9vqf	or rather printf("%s", TQString("foo").ascii());
Z_God	thanks, that should help a lot :)
Z_God	let's see....
Z_God	it seems the marshalling of the data in dcopc is broken
Z_God	it doesn't seem to work...
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Z_God	I'm trying to view the contents of ba declared at line 721 in this file http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/kdelibs/dcop/dcopserver.cpp?revision=129821&view=markup&pathrev=129821
Z_God	after it has been filled by IceReadData at line 722
Z_God	when I print fromApp.data() and toApp().data() a bit lower, I get two strings back, which are derived from the QDataStream based on that QByteArray
MutantTurkey	Z_God: go on...
Z_God	so I'm quite sure it's filled with something
Z_God	when I do this: printf("Trying to print: ba.data()==%s\n", TQString(ba.data()).ascii());
MutantTurkey	what are the strings returned?
Z_God	I get nothing however
Z_God	they are things like "kded" and "DCOPServer"
MutantTurkey	hrm
MutantTurkey	and what do you expect?
Z_God	that I see at least those back when I print the whole array where the readQCString extract them from
Z_God	hmm, maybe \0 is used as some kind of separator in the array?
Z_God	I didn't see any proper DCOP message specs
MutantTurkey	I don't really know how DCOP works
Fat-Zer	try to print raw data:
Fat-Zer	printf("Trying to print: ba.size()==%d\n data:", ba.size());
Fat-Zer	for(int i=0;i<ba.size();i++) printf("%02X\n", ba.data());
Fat-Zer	and it's usefull to fill array with zeros before reading it... for debug...
Z_God	it displays just 85B1870
MutantTurkey	Z_God: do you have any DCOP documentation?
Z_God	I only saw the official docs describing how to use the C++ implementation
Z_God	but they do not really give info on the message format
MutantTurkey	weird
Z_God	normally it wouldn't be really needed
Z_God	but in this case I need to use dcopc, which is the dcop C implentation
Z_God	which appears to be out of sync & thus incompatible
MutantTurkey	okay I am confused as to what you are doing :P
MutantTurkey	what are you up too with DCOP?
Z_God	I'm trying to get kmozilla to work
MutantTurkey	oh cool
Z_God	it's a kpart which embeds a Mozilla browser
Z_God	it uses this xparts to be able to embed a gtk app
Z_God	I already managed to convert the code to compile against gtk2 (from gtk1.2)
Z_God	now I need to get the C based DCOP library going
Z_God	dcopserver is getting corrupted messages from it now
Z_God	so I'm trying to get more info from dcopserver, to see why it cannot handle them
MutantTurkey	the mozilla backend gecko?
Z_God	yes
MutantTurkey	why do you need DCOP?
MutantTurkey	for the kpart?
Z_God	it uses dcop for communication
Z_God	between the GTK C part and Qt C++ part
MutantTurkey	used gtkmm
MutantTurkey	just a though
Z_God	the GTK part is completely running in another process
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	so does the DCOP library for C exist already?
Z_God	I'm just trying to get the original kmozilla in the trinity tree to work actually
Z_God	I'm not writing anything myself ;)
Z_God	yep, it's also in the trinity tree
Z_God	http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/kdebindings/dcopc/
MutantTurkey	oh cool
Z_God	and this is the kpart itself http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/kdebindings/xparts/mozilla/
MutantTurkey	so is the DCOP in C broken or is the mozilla -> DCOP broken?
Z_God	1st
Z_God	dcopc is not able to send valid messages to dcopserver
MutantTurkey	did the dcop format change?
MutantTurkey	also are there other implementations of DCOP (python or anything?)
Z_God	that's is the question, I checked older DCOP code and it seems quite similar
Z_God	I don't know
MutantTurkey	did the DCOPC change at all?
Z_God	the marshalling is also using some tricks that I do not really understand
MutantTurkey	I don't know much of anything, I am just a humble packager
MutantTurkey	I am like that guy who does whatever random tasks assigned
Z_God	the code is around line 738 here: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/kdebindings/dcopc/dcopc.c?view=markup
Z_God	a DCOP command basically consists of 3 things, the local app, the remote app and the command
Z_God	the first two at least are normal strings
MutantTurkey	so give me an example of a dcop command
MutantTurkey	and what type of connection is it?
MutantTurkey	a socket?
Z_God	on one side gchars, the other TQCString
Z_God	yes
Z_God	unix socket
MutantTurkey	do you have a wrapper function for the gchars to TQCtring?
MutantTurkey	or are they both just enumerations for char?
Z_God	of course, all the magic needs to happen on the dcopc side
MutantTurkey	right
Z_God	it has several marshall methods to change the format
Z_God	and those I do not fully understand
Z_God	and example of a dcop command is: dcop kdesktop KBackgroundIface changeWallpaper
MutantTurkey	okay
Z_God	you could run it from a shell to change your wallpaper
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	so works similar to dbus
Z_God	yes, dbus is the successor of dcop
MutantTurkey	I know
Z_God	Fat-Zer: it seems there is an i missing in the printf?
Z_God	that's why it's printing the same stuff over & over.... not sure coding at night is always smart :)
MutantTurkey	what is the function you are using?
MutantTurkey	http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/kdebindings/dcopc/dcopc.c?view=markup
MutantTurkey	sorry
Z_God	for(int i=0;i<ba.size();i++) printf("%02X\n", ba.data());
Z_God	I'd like to print the contents of the full array
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: got it working
MutantTurkey	Z_God: paste the section of your code into a pastie okay?
Z_God	alright
MutantTurkey	I can't read it like hat :P
Z_God	the main issue is I'm a C n00b ;)
MutantTurkey	I can help
MutantTurkey	I am adequate in C
MutantTurkey	and I am good at GTK/GDK stack if you need any other help with that
Z_God	http://pastebin.com/08BxJCB4
Z_God	this is how I modified the code now
MutantTurkey	http://pastebin.com/08BxJCB4
Z_God	the fromApp and toApp are printed successfully for normal apps like konq
Z_God	but they are null for kmozilla
Z_God	they are extracted from the array using the readQCString methods
Z_God	so I hope to print the original TQByteArray to see if I can find the differences between the normal operation and what it gets from dcopc
MutantTurkey	dude you need to learn how to space stuff out.
Z_God	yeah, it's a mess
MutantTurkey	ba.size.. what is that?
MutantTurkey	ba.size?
MutantTurkey	and does it output anything right now?
Z_God	TQByteArray ba( length );
MutantTurkey	okay
Z_God	line 4 in the paste
MutantTurkey	right
Z_God	it does not output anything with the first 2 attempts
MutantTurkey	is the array always 4 elements?
MutantTurkey	or a certain number?
Z_God	can be any number
MutantTurkey	oh okay
MutantTurkey	I didn't know if it was fixed
Z_God	Fat-Zer: gave me the for loop, but it is not fully correct yet
MutantTurkey	printf("%02X\n, ba.data());
MutantTurkey	thats the problem i think
Z_God	it always prints the first part
Z_God	yes, the i needs to be used in the printf, but I'm not sure how to do that
MutantTurkey	printf needs to use the %s
MutantTurkey	so like
MutantTurkey	printf("here is a few chars. char 1 = %s char 2 = %s", char one variable, char 2 variable
Z_God	I'm going to try it first with hexadecimal output
MutantTurkey	...
MutantTurkey	just fix printf
Z_God	to make sure \0 won't be a problem
MutantTurkey	thats not
MutantTurkey	printf("%s", ba.data());
MutantTurkey	try that
MutantTurkey	forget about any formtatting
Fat-Zer	printf("%s", ba.data()[i]);
Z_God	I think that's basically line 6
MutantTurkey	what he said
Z_God	ah no
MutantTurkey	i think Fat-Zer is right
Z_God	will add the [i]
MutantTurkey	I can't tell I am too tired
MutantTurkey	wait is ba.data a function?
Z_God	it's working it seems
Fat-Zer	http://doc.qt.nokia.com/3.3/qbytearray-members.html
MutantTurkey	Z_God: awesome!
Z_God	I'm getting the whole array in hex
Fat-Zer	qt is really good-documented...
MutantTurkey	as well as gtk
MutantTurkey	large projects tend to be
MutantTurkey	because they have entire teams working on docs.
MutantTurkey	okay I gotta stop by the ATM and grocery store... I'll be back later.
Z_God	MutantTurkey: see you!
Z_God	not sure if I'll still be up later...
Z_God	Fat-Zer: your IRC client does unicode? &#1088;&#1072;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090;?
Fat-Zer	&#1072;&#1075;&#1072;
Z_God	&#1101;&#1090;&#1086; &#1085;&#1077; &#1086;&#1095;&#1077;&#1085;&#1100; &#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1076;&#1085;&#1086; &#1091; &#1074;&#1072;&#1089;? ;)
Fat-Zer	5:30
Z_God	&#1079;&#1076;&#1077;&#1089;&#1100; 3:30 :)
Fat-Zer	&#1086;&#1090;&#1086; &#1075;&#1076;&#1077;, &#1077;&#1089;&#1083;&#1080; &#1085;&#1077; &#1089;&#1077;&#1082;&#1088;&#1077;&#1090;?=)
Z_God	&#1043;&#1086;&#1083;&#1083;&#1072;&#1085;&#1076;&#1080;&#1103; :)
Fat-Zer	&#1084;&#1076;&#1072;... &#1091;&#1078;&#1077; &#1103;&#1074;&#1085;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1079;&#1076;&#1085;&#1086;... &#1103; &#1085;&#1077; &#1074; &#1090;&#1091; &#1089;&#1090;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1085;&#1091; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1073;&#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1083; - &#1076;&#1091;&#1084;&#1072;&#1083; &#1086;&#1090;&#1082;&#1091;&#1076;&#1072;-&#1090;&#1086; &#1089; &#1091;&#1088;&#1072;&#1083;&#1072;...:-D
Z_God	&#1093;&#1077;&#1093;&#1077;, &#1090;&#1099; &#1073;&#1083;&#1080;&#1089;&#1082;&#1086; &#1052;&#1086;&#1089;&#1082;&#1074;&#1099;?
Fat-Zer	&#1074; &#1052;&#1086;&#1089;&#1082;&#1074;&#1077;
Z_God	&#1079;&#1076;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086; :)
Z_God	I see the problem now I think btw
Fat-Zer	&#1080; &#1101;&#1090;&#1086; &#1075;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086;&#1088;&#1080;&#1090; &#1095;&#1077;&#1083;&#1086;&#1074;&#1077;&#1082;, &#1078;&#1080;&#1074;&#1091;&#1097;&#1080;&#1081; &#1074; &#1043;&#1086;&#1083;&#1072;&#1085;&#1076;&#1080;&#1080;=)
Z_God	there are multiple extra 00 characters after the length, which makes dcop trip
Z_God	&#1076;&#1072;, &#1073;&#1099;&#1083; 2 &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1072; &#1074; &#1052;&#1086;&#1089;&#1082;&#1074;&#1077;
Z_God	&#1101;&#1090;&#1086; &#1082;&#1088;&#1072;&#1089;&#1080;&#1074;&#1099;&#1081; &#1075;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1076;!
Z_God	&#1089;&#1083;&#1077;&#1076;&#1091;&#1102;&#1096;&#1072;&#1103; &#1085;&#1077;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1103;, &#1103; &#1073;&#1091;&#1076;&#1091; &#1085;&#1072;&#1095;&#1080;&#1085;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100; &#1091;&#1095;&#1080;&#1090;&#1100;&#1089;&#1103; &#1088;&#1091;&#1089;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;&#1081; &#1103;&#1079;&#1099;&#1082; &#1074; &#1091;&#1085;&#1080;&#1074;&#1077;&#1088;&#1089;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1090;&#1077;, &#1087;&#1086;&#1101;&#1090;&#1086;&#1084;&#1091; &#1084;&#1085;&#1077; &#1085;&#1072;&#1076;&#1086; &#1090;&#1088;&#1077;&#1081;&#1085;&#1080;&#1088;&#1072;&#1074;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100;&#1089;&#1103; ;)
Fat-Zer	&#1091; &#1090;&#1077;&#1073;&#1103; &#1085;&#1077;&#1087;&#1083;&#1086;&#1093;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1083;&#1091;&#1095;&#1072;&#1083;&#1086;&#1089;&#1100;... &#1076;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1089;&#1083;&#1077;&#1076;&#1085;&#1077;&#1081; &#1092;&#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1099;...
Z_God	&#1089;&#1087;&#1072;&#1089;&#1080;&#1073;&#1086; !
Z_God	&#1103; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1073;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1102; :)
Z_God	&#1076;&#1091;&#1084;&#1072;&#1102; &#1095;&#1090;&#1086; &#1103; &#1073;&#1091;&#1076;&#1091; &#1089;&#1087;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100; &#1089;&#1077;&#1081;&#1095;&#1072;&#1089;
Z_God	&#1087;&#1086;&#1085;&#1080;&#1084;&#1072;&#1102; &#1089;&#1077;&#1081;&#1095;&#1072;&#1089; &#1075;&#1076;&#1077; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1073;&#1083;&#1077;&#1084;&#1072;, &#1073;&#1091;&#1076;&#1091; &#1089;&#1084;&#1086;&#1090;&#1088;&#1077;&#1090;&#1100; &#1073;&#1086;&#1083;&#1100;&#1096;&#1077; &#1079;&#1072;&#1074;&#1090;&#1088;&#1072;...
Z_God	&#1089;&#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1081;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1085;&#1086;&#1095;&#1080;!
Z_God	it seems I know where the problem comes from, I guess either dcop used to be more tolerant in the past or some of the functions used by dcopc were slightly changed which caused some extra bytes to be inserted
Fat-Zer	&#1089;&#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086;&#1081;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081;...
Z_God	hope to look at it more tomorrow, good night all!
Fat-Zer	maybe it's not there...
Z_God	Fat-Zer: &#1087;&#1086;&#1082;&#1072;! &#1077;&#1097;&#1105; &#1089;&#1087;&#1072;&#1089;&#1080;&#1073;&#1086; &#1079;&#1072; &#1087;&#1086;&#1084;&#1086;&#1095;&#1072;!
Z_God	what do you mean?
Fat-Zer	i can't see source... websvn.kde.org is down for me now...
Z_God	really?
Z_God	it works here
Fat-Zer	yes... don't know why....
Z_God	http://184.106.129.124/
Fat-Zer	anyway... cya
Z_God	I get 4 different IP addresses for it
Z_God	alright, bye!
MutantTurkey	back
MutantTurkey	you guys are speaking russian?
Fat-Zer	yes
MutantTurkey	awesome
MutantTurkey	makes me so jealous :|
MutantTurkey	anyway qt3 building for me finally :)
Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: on what system are you buildung?
MutantTurkey	Archlinux
Fat-Zer	arch always was too hard for me to understand...
MutantTurkey	hands down my only distro to use
MutantTurkey	I've used them all
Fat-Zer	my only and the one is gentoo... but i still haven't tried slackware, but i belive i von't like it...
MutantTurkey	gitmeh
MutantTurkey	gentoo is meh for me
MutantTurkey	It's to much work
Fat-Zer	all work is done by compiller... you just tell it ones what you want =)
Fat-Zer	ok... i'm going to sleep
Fat-Zer	cya
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MutantTurkey	night alll
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Z_God	fixed the DCOP issue it seems, uint32s were marshalled and demarshalled in the wrong order for some reason
Z_God	now the registration works, but nothing is rendered displayed yet
Z_God	I do not get any errors on my terminal anymore though...
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Fat-Zer	u meen in one case it was LE in an another BE? o_O
Fat-Zer	Z_God: ?
Z_God	yes
Z_God	I guess
Z_God	let me show it
Z_God	http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/kdebindings/dcopc/marshal.c?view=markup
Z_God	this file
Z_God	line 93-96
Z_God	I changed the numbers so now it's from buf[3] to buf[0]
Z_God	and the same switch at line 108-111
Z_God	now it's passed the registration correctly
Z_God	it*
Fat-Zer	oh.. i think you made a facepalm when you discovered it...
Fat-Zer	=)
Fat-Zer	and by the way: kb9vqf is tim pearson or not?
Z_God	yep
Z_God	yep
Z_God	you can only discover such things with debugging I guess though ;)
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Borg^Queen	hello to all
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 516 filed by patrick@serru.net.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=516 critical, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Malfunction with Audacity
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 516 from NEW to NEEDINFO.
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samelian	kb9vqf: kdenetwork/wifi is compilable on your machines?
kb9vqf	I use autotools, and yes
samelian	which version of wireless-tools?
kb9vqf	I am only using CMake for the core system right now
kb9vqf	30~pre9-3ubuntu4
samelian	aha, new
samelian	thx
samelian	if I will be able to compile knetwork/wifi, cmake port of kdenetwork can be considered done
kb9vqf	np
kb9vqf	and glad to hear it :)
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Z_God	kb9vqf: maybe you can give me some advice again!
kb9vqf	ok
Z_God	I actually got dcopc to communicate with dcopserver
samelian	kb9vqf: I commited last part of cmake support for kdenetwork
samelian	test it when you have time
kb9vqf	cool (to both of you)
Z_God	it turned out some byte orders were reversed
Z_God	the initial registration succeeds now
kb9vqf	makes sense with the DCOP changes theory
Z_God	but now it gets kicked again after a few seconds and I see this on the dcopserver side
Z_God	DCOP aborting call from 'konqueror-25730' to 'kmozilla-25742'
Z_God	DCOP aborting while waiting for answer from 'konqueror-25730'
Z_God	and then it unregisters kmozilla-25742
kb9vqf	huh
kb9vqf	looks like kmozilla is not responding to a call
Z_God	or maybe the other way around
Z_God	because konq doesn't understand a certain call from kmozilla
kb9vqf	I'm looking at this: DCOP aborting call from 'konqueror-25730' to 'kmozilla-25742'
kb9vqf	That sounds like kmozilla is not responding to a call
kb9vqf	It would help if you knew which commands were being sent where
kb9vqf	IIRC there is a debug option to turn that on
Z_God	ok, let me see....
Z_God	I already uncommented #define DCOP_DEBUG and added #undef NDEBUG which gave me a lot more output
kb9vqf	Look at DCOP_LOG
kb9vqf	in dcopserver.cpp
Z_God	ah :)
Z_God	I wonder where those logs end up though...
Z_God	I guess somewhere in ~/.trinity
kb9vqf	In your home directory actually
Z_God	ok :)
Z_God	right I have the messages
Z_God	but without any application names
kb9vqf	you might have to modify the debug statement to include the app names
kb9vqf	that is, the #ifdefed statement that prints messages to the log file
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kb9vqf	Z_God: sorry, logged off accidentally
Z_God	np, there is only one message after loading kmozilla it seems a registerAs(TQCString)
Z_God	all the other registerAs(TQCString) messages are also accompanied by a setDaemonMode(bool) message
kb9vqf	so kmozilla sends the registerAs request?
Z_God	yes
Z_God	at least it's send again when I reload kmozilla
Z_God	also this registration is confirmed
Z_God	on the kmozilla side I get a proper reply and kmozilla is indeed registered for a short moment
Z_God	after that both sides seem to expect something different
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Z_God	kb9vqf: btw you should let me know at what point you think I should start sending patches
kb9vqf	let's try after the DCOP problem is fixed
Z_God	alright :)
Z_God	btw
Z_God	when dcopserver has unregistered kmozilla
Z_God	it still gets another message from kmozilla
Z_God	which it discards as DCOPReply for unknown connection.
Z_God	so it seems that kmozilla is still under the assumption that is has a registration
Z_God	it*
Z_God	so I guess that indeed there is a message that kmozilla may not respond properly to
Z_God	kmozilla recieves 3 messages 2x a windowId() and then a show()
kb9vqf	well, either that or dcopserver is expecing something back from kmozilla
kb9vqf	dcopserver can terminate the connection if it doesn't like something
Z_God	hmm ok
Z_God	could it be that it gets windowId() twice because the 1st answer is not appropriate?
kb9vqf	it's possible
kb9vqf	what does it send back?
Z_God	let me see... going to look through the function now that prints the received messages
kb9vqf	ok
Z_God	it seems to return the window id
Z_God	and it goes again through the marshalling function that I had to change
Z_God	maybe this change is not suitable for all UINT32s
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Z_God	kb9vqf: do you know anything about window ids? could 69206019 be a normal window id?
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kb9vqf	Z_God: Yes
kb9vqf	that is likely correct
Z_God	ok
Z_God	strange
Z_God	I guess this uint stuff was changed due to a newer compiler or smth then
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Z_God	but it seems I'm not getting all dcop messages in my log, because there is no windowId() at all in there
Z_God	yes, the log is very incomplete, I'm getting more info now by printing all the data being received
Z_God	the message that kmozilla sends when it is already unregistered is queryExtension(TQCString)
Z_God	I see the window id passing correctly twice to konqueror
Z_God	and then show() is not returning anything
Z_God	I wonder what a program is supposed to answer when dcop function doesn't have a defined return type
Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: what about issue with cmake that i dicussed in maillist?
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Fat-Zer	*discussed
kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: What exactly is the problem?
kb9vqf	That was not clear to me
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Xu_R	well..
Xu_R	this is relatively quiet for a meeting night >_>
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Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: sorry was afk...
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf:...
kb9vqf	ugh
kb9vqf	I'm popular :)
MutantTurkey	:P
Fat-Zer	the problem: every time when I compile something from kdebase it's also compiles 3 executabeles: kdmtsak, tsak and krootbacking
kb9vqf	ah, even if they have already been compiled?
Fat-Zer	so if' i'm trying to build only eg. libkonq compiles also those...
kb9vqf	hmm
kb9vqf	maybe Serghei would know better what is going on that I would
kb9vqf	I am still relatively new to CMake
MutantTurkey	what is the problem?
MutantTurkey	I am adequate at cmake
Fat-Zer	CMakeList.txt in kdebase...
Fat-Zer	tsak and krootbacking modules are compiled independ to build flags
MutantTurkey	ok I will look
MutantTurkey	is there a conditional to build it?
Fat-Zer	no, that's im talking about
Fat-Zer	a minute... i've got a patch
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: hold up, where ar ethe source files for tsak?
MutantTurkey	what folder?
Fat-Zer	tsak ))
MutantTurkey	on the git right?
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Fat-Zer	no... svn
MutantTurkey	oh okay
MutantTurkey	under kdebase?
Fat-Zer	git is still emptyisn't it?
Fat-Zer	http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/kdebase/
MutantTurkey	nope. just has differnet stuff
MutantTurkey	ah, forgot to pull in latest changes xD
Fat-Zer	only qt...
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MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: and some other stuff
MutantTurkey	tqtinterface, qt3, and all the packaging materials
Fat-Zer	kdmtsac binary in kdm folder also builds unconditionaly
Fat-Zer	oh... that wasn,t a question))
MutantTurkey	okay sorry, I have to run svn cleanup (might take a while)
Fat-Zer	here is that i'm projecting: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/479537/
MutantTurkey	something is weird happening with my svn tree, regardless
MutantTurkey	looks goot to me. but it should be BUILD_TSAK not BUILD_TSAC
MutantTurkey	also you need to keep the spacing all identical and so forth
MutantTurkey	you know, coding rules :)
Fat-Zer	yeap... a typo =)
MutantTurkey	yessir :D
MutantTurkey	typos are important for quality control
MutantTurkey	believe me, I spent like a month porting kdegraphics to cmake... I am very sloppy so I spent half the time fixing error
MutantTurkey	wonder how lon gsvn has been messed up for... seems alot has changed.
Fat-Zer	and what's wrong with spacing?
MutantTurkey	just keep it intact :)
MutantTurkey	make sure it follows the regular pattern
MutantTurkey	and did you check to see the patch worked?
Fat-Zer	yes... it worked..
MutantTurkey	send it in!
Fat-Zer	great=)
Fat-Zer	and one more...why kdmtsac binary is located under kdmlib? maybe it's better to move it to kdm?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: ^
kb9vqf	because it is sort of a library
kb9vqf	well, it's used by kdm anyway
kb9vqf	and kdesktop_lock
kb9vqf	so I was a bit hesitant to have it shut off if kdm is not compiled
Fat-Zer	and kdesktop_lock is a part of kdm package?
Fat-Zer	i'm just not really sure what condition should be for it build...
Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: ?
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Fat-Zer	yes.... here is really quiet...
Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: ?
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: did you send that patch?
Fat-Zer	sorry, where to send?
MutantTurkey	the dev ML
Fat-Zer	i sended it a couple of days ago...
Fat-Zer	[cmake][kdbase] necessity of add_subdirectory thread
MutantTurkey	oh
Fat-Zer	but it's with bad "build_tsaC"... fix and send again?
MutantTurkey	should be
MutantTurkey	BUILD_TSAK
MutantTurkey	yes
Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: i'm still not really sure about condition for kdmtsak... i'll add a FIXME there
Fat-Zer	send
MutantTurkey	...
MutantTurkey	saw it
Fat-Zer	also i think i can help with cmake porting...
Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: ?
MutantTurkey	awesome
MutantTurkey	that's sweet
MutantTurkey	there are some coding guidelines and such
MutantTurkey	but follow by example
MutantTurkey	but hey, anything specific you want to port?
Fat-Zer	i don't know what to start with.... may be kdeutils...
Fat-Zer	but I'll just finish ebuilds at least for kdebase first...
MutantTurkey	finish ebuilds
MutantTurkey	more important :)
Fat-Zer	and krootbacking should be a part of kscreensaver
MutantTurkey	why?
Fat-Zer	it's "A program to grab the current TDE desktop backrounds for xscreensaver"
Fat-Zer	so i think it's logical... it's no profit from it without kscreensaver...
Fat-Zer	*there is no profit
Fat-Zer	writed all my thinkes about that to ML
MutantTurkey	good
MutantTurkey	It's goot to have more eyes looking over the same material
MutantTurkey	different things jump out
Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: kdm cannot be compiled without pan support. right?
MutantTurkey	is there an option to?
MutantTurkey	If not I assume some
MutantTurkey	and doy ou mean PAM?
Fat-Zer	yes, pam...
Fat-Zer	an option is in the main CMakeList.txt
MutantTurkey	not required i don't think
MutantTurkey	WITH_PAM i think is the variable
Fat-Zer	i'm embarrassed by this:
Fat-Zer	16 if( NOT DEFINED KDM_PAM_SERVICE )
Fat-Zer	17   set( KDM_PAM_SERVICE "kde" CACHE INTERNAL "" )
Fat-Zer	18 endif( )
Fat-Zer	in kdm's root...
kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: It was originally intended for kscreensaver, but I got to thinking that any 3rd party app that wants to use the desktop background might as well have access to the generated file
Fat-Zer	what generated file?
Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: you mean some security issues?
MutantTurkey	goin to bed
kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: No, not really
MutantTurkey	night doodes
kb9vqf	krootbacking generates a png file of the current desktop background
kb9vqf	that's it
kb9vqf	and other apps might want to use it
kb9vqf	I don't care too much one way or another
Fat-Zer	oh... ok... understand this.
Fat-Zer	tsac in separate folder on the same reason?
kb9vqf	yes, as tsak is a systemwide daemon process
kb9vqf	that one has to stay in kdebase though
kb9vqf	as kdm, kdesktop_lock, and kdesktop rely on it
kb9vqf	(they will fall back to the original KDE3.5 less secure login mode if it is not installed and running)
Fat-Zer	is there any tsac-related code in kdm or somethere else, that can turned off by defines?
kb9vqf	no, it will auto-detect that tsac is not available and running
kb9vqf	at runtime
kb9vqf	but I strongly recommend that tsac be available unless there is a very good reason that it not be
kb9vqf	not having the SAK available means that login screen spoofing is a very real possibility
kb9vqf	(i.e. KDE3.5.10 was vulnerable to login screen spoofing)
Fat-Zer	will you here for 1-2 hours?
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kb9vqf	FYI Freenode seems to be messed up at the moment--neither tbottu nor I can become channel operator
kb9vqf	Please be civil everyone :)
kb9vqf	FYI2 NickServ is down
kb9vqf	due to the netsplit
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kb9vqf	OK, Freenode is back in business! :)
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Fat-Zer	about kdm/pam seems it doesn't work without it...
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: Oh, fun, more legal problems: http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::3067
kb9vqf	Can you look into the issue and see if there is any way around it?
Xu_R	kb9vqf:
Xu_R	apparently the opensuse legal team
Xu_R	is starting to give numerous bugreports
Xu_R	to Ilya about licensing issues in KDE3...
Xu_R	kb9vqf: it may be a misunderstanding, so I need to see what happens next.
kb9vqf	so OpenSUSE wants KDE3 dead
kb9vqf	Nice :-P
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Xu_R	XD
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Problem is fixed in SVN
kb9vqf	KDE4 may still have the license problem ;-)
Xu_R	ok :D
Xu_R	hehe, they probably still do :P
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: ilya is actually good for helping us sort through license issues :)
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTurkey	for that I am very grateful;
kb9vqf	as am I
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	IANAL
MutantTurkey	?
MutantTurkey	oh, I am not a lawyer :P
MutantTurkey	finally got jack working smoothly :D
kb9vqf	cool!
MutantTurkey	I also see samelian is commiting agian
MutantTurkey	that is good
kb9vqf	yes it is
MutantTurkey	He is moving right through kdenetwork, excellent
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MutantTurkey	merging back all the stuff into my qt3 spec file.
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MutantTurkey	usb webcam = pain in ass
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KingSphinx	Does Trinity's Konsole use the standard .bashrc file in a user's home, or does it use something else?
kb9vqf	Yes it does AFAIk
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kb9vqf	Yes it does AFAIK
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KingSphinx	Ah, okay, just wondering. Out of sheer boredom, I've started modifying my .bashrc so it can actually display syntax-appropriate coloring, which IMO is a bit easier to look at than white-on-black all the time. Unfortunately, the color scheme I've found is a .vim scheme, not something I could put in .bashrc. Oh well. :/
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Fat-Zer	hi all
Fat-Zer	can't run tsak...
kb9vqf	what does it do?
kb9vqf	(i.e. how does it fail?)
Fat-Zer	$ sudo tsak
Fat-Zer	Reading From : (AT Translated Set 2 keyboard)
Fat-Zer	Unable to open /dev/uinput or /dev/misc/uinput (char device 10:223).
Fat-Zer	Possible causes: Device node inexistent or kernel not compiled with evdev user level driver support or permission denied.
Fat-Zer	open("/dev/misc/uinput"): No such file or directory
kb9vqf	BTW it's still somewhat experimental; TDE should fall back to the original login mode if needed
Fat-Zer	$ grep EVDEV .config
Fat-Zer	CONFIG_INPUT_EVDEV=y
kb9vqf	which operating system are you on?
kb9vqf	distro?
Fat-Zer	gentoo
Fat-Zer	uname -a
Fat-Zer	Linux vm-gentoo-test 2.6.36.2-vm-0.1.2 #6 Fri Jul 29 04:36:07 MSD 2011 i686 Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E6750 @ 2.66GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux
kb9vqf	USB or PS/2 keyboard?
Fat-Zer	virtualbox... it's emulates ps/2 as i remember
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	I haven't tried PS/2 keyboards myself
kb9vqf	I know it works for USB keyboards
kb9vqf	Trinity does fall back to the non-SAK based authentication dialogs, correct?
Fat-Zer	yes, correct...
Fat-Zer	but there is no such folder (/dev/misc/)
Fat-Zer	either on normal system
kb9vqf	Do you have the uinput module installed in your kernel?
kb9vqf	oh wait...it isn't called uinput....
kb9vqf	hmm, yes it is :-P
* kb9vqf is working on other things at the same time here
kb9vqf	Where is your /dev/uinput device node equivalent?
kb9vqf	tsak tries both /dev/uinput and /dev/misc/uinput
kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: Is your /dev/uinput actually under /dev/input/uinput?
Fat-Zer	yes...
Fat-Zer	INPUT_UINPUT=n
kb9vqf	well, it won't work without uinput ;-)
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Fat-Zer	ok... i'll rebuild it...
Fat-Zer	thanks... i've wached for EVDEV option only...
kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: Was the error message unclear?
kb9vqf	I'll change it :)
Fat-Zer	it's better to add name of option(INPUT_UINPUT)
Fat-Zer	i think...
kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: what is the exact name of the EVDEV option
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	Ah, never mind: INPUT_EVDEV
Fat-Zer	Event interface: CONFIG_INPUT_EVDEV
Fat-Zer	User level driver support: INPUT_UINPUT
kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: Error message has been made clearer in SVN revision 1255172.
Fat-Zer	thanks=)
kb9vqf	np
kb9vqf	thanks for bringing this to my attention
Fat-Zer	and another one... not really important... if i run tsak from a normal user the error message is: "Another instance of this program is already running"
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M1as	hiho
M1as	I again ran into the "error on configging kdelibs-data" problem
M1as	on installing trinity onto lucid
M1as	kdelibs4c2a: Hängt ab: kdelibs-data (> 4:3.5.10.dfsg.1)
M1as	Hängt ab: kdelibs-data (< 4:3.5.10.dfsg.2)
M1as	Hängt ab= depends on
M1as	any help?
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Mias	re
Mias	saw my question befre? was M1as
Mias	before
Fat-Zer	who's dependence is this: kdelibs-data (< 4:3.5.10.dfsg.2) ?
Mias	Fat-Zer:  kdelibs4c2a: Hängt ab: kdelibs-data (> 4:3.5.10.dfsg.1)
Mias	Hängt ab: kdelibs-data (< 4:3.5.10.dfsg.2)
Mias	seems it wants concurrent libs-versions
Fat-Zer	what is Hängt ab?
Mias	< and > same time
Mias	Fat-Zer: "depends on"#
Mias	oh I missed the last count
Mias	how to solve this?
Fat-Zer	ugh.. don't know anything about ubuntu packages...
Mias	hmm; debian? ;)
Fat-Zer	gentoo =)
Mias	ugh
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kb9vqf	Mias: Trinity cannot be installed alongside any KDE3.5 packages
Mias	whut
Mias	no KDE3.5 here except trinity
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: what are you doing?
MutantTurkey	h/w
MutantTurkey	j/w
MutantTurkey	oh nevermind I am going crazy.. I am sloppy reader
Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: nearly finished kdebase ebuilds... but i'm running out of space on /home partion so my virtualbox nearly hangs up and i'm need to reboot to resize it...
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MutantTurkey	awesome
MutantTurkey	that's sweet you are making progress
Fat-Zer	now got some problems with tsac & kdm...
Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: tsac still doesn't work... does it probe /dev/nput/uinput device?
Fat-Zer	* /dev/input/uinput
kb9vqf	/dev/uinput
kb9vqf	if you have /dev/input/uinput instead then that needs to be fixed
kb9vqf	in tsak
Fat-Zer	seems there is some problems with gentoo udev scripts also... i've got a warning about it...
Fat-Zer	i'll try to update it first...
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	poke me if you need tsak to probe /dev/input/uinput as well
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Fat-Zer	udev prints:
Fat-Zer	1316830834.356731 [1815] udev_event_execute_rules: kernel-provided name 'uinput' and NAME= 'input/uinput' disagree, please use SYMLINK+= or change the kernel to provide the proper name
Fat-Zer	i think later it will be fixed if i report a bug... but IMHO it's ok and even better to add extra search path...
Fat-Zer	but even if i'm adding this symlink with hands tsak doesn't works...
Fat-Zer	but here is another problem...
Fat-Zer	kdm crashes when i click sutdown
Fat-Zer	/var/log/kdm.log http://paste.pocoo.org/show/481427/
Fat-Zer	crash message: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/481428/
Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: ideas?
Fat-Zer	kdm.log (with working tsak) : http://paste.pocoo.org/show/481430/
Fat-Zer	* not working actually, but proces runs correctly
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kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: So kdm only crashes if tsak is not running?
Fat-Zer	kdm crashes everytime
Fat-Zer	if shutdown is decieded
kb9vqf	ok
Fat-Zer	can you reproduce this?
kb9vqf	not yet
kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: Looks like the problem MAY lie in the Qt PNG libraries or lower level interface
kb9vqf	which may be why you see it on Gentoo and I do not see it on Ubuntu
kb9vqf	do you have the ability to debug this problem some?
Fat-Zer	yes... i' ll try...
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	thanks :)
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Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: how can i see what commits was to the specific file in trinity git?
Fat-Zer	anyway.... qt doesn't compiles without xinerama headers (xinerama support is disabled)
Fat-Zer	build log: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/481471/
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Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: fix the problem:
Fat-Zer	plugins/src/inputmethods/xim/xim.pro: CONFIG+= xinerama
Fat-Zer	no... that doesn't
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kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: Click the difference icon next to the commit in the commit log
kb9vqf	It has plus and minus signs on it
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Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: as long as xim doesn't use xinerama it's ok to add "DEFINES += QT_NO_XINERAMA" to qt/plugins/src/inputmethods/xim/xim.pro. this fixes the compilation without xinerama headers...
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 517 filed by michaelmartin007@hotmail.de.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=517 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, trinity-restricted-addons and trinity-restricted-extras
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 518 filed by michaelmartin007@hotmail.de.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=518 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Amarok-trinity by Clementine authors development.
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Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: there?
Fat-Zer	found there the problem with kdm...
Fat-Zer	it fails to load jpeg becouse qt compiles over headers in it's include directory...
Fat-Zer	i looked it through (qt includes) and it's full of garbage
Fat-Zer	also seems there is a problem in qt code...
Fat-Zer	206    jpeg_create_decompress(&cinfo);
Fat-Zer	207
Fat-Zer	208    cinfo.src = iod_src;
Fat-Zer	209
Fat-Zer	210    cinfo.err = jpeg_std_error(&jerr);
Fat-Zer	211    jerr.error_exit = my_error_exit;
Fat-Zer	* kernel/qjpegio.cpp
Fat-Zer	seems jpeg_create_decompress should be the last in this listing...
Fat-Zer	in this case if JPEG_LIB_VERSION will be changed it won't crash and will display error message...
Fat-Zer	i'll check if it's so.
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kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: Please send me a patch (or two) on the trinity-devel mailing list
kb9vqf	I'll look them over and if you want you can send them to GIT directly
kb9vqf	(once I've OKed them)
kb9vqf	Or if it is better for you I can commit them myself
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MutantTurkey	doode
MutantTurkey	where is tiM!
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: so Oracle changed their license for mysql
MutantTurkey	so does that mean we get to drop it?
MutantTurkey	though maybe not
l0ner	what license they changed it to?
MutantTurkey	not sure
MutantTurkey	they are changing it
MutantTurkey	though maybe not
MutantTurkey	seems the news feed is a bit dramatic...
l0ner	news are always dramatic
MutantTurkey	:|
l0ner	and everything dependes on which license they will change current to
MutantTurkey	well I stinking hate oracle anyway.
* l0ner hates oracle too.
MutantTurkey	they keep making bad decisions that I don't get.
MutantTurkey	Like libreOffice... If they only would have helped them out, donated the name, join in as a collaborter... it would have been great
l0ner	well, they have theirs business model which they keep
MutantTurkey	a corporation doesn't always have the best model to deal with open source
MutantTurkey	they hate it because there is no one to blame except for people who contribute for free, so they can't make demands
l0ner	and they are not fit in the open software movement
l0ner	yes, its like that
l0ner	and they have other reasons not to like open source software, but it's all politics which i don't want to even think about
MutantTurkey	Indeed
l0ner	damn. my kmail broken...
l0ner	it can's send mail
l0ner	*can't
MutantTurkey	:|
l0ner	it throws me "Unknow transport protocol" error
l0ner	damn
MutantTurkey	did you change anything?
l0ner	nope
l0ner	but I think i messed a little with my system
l0ner	jumping back and forth between trinity 3.5.12 and 3.5.13
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MutantTurkey	maybe so
* l0ner is away: sleep.
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 519 filed by fatzer2@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=519 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, qt3 - libjpeg issue
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 520 filed by fatzer2@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=520 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, qt3 doesn't compiles without libXinerama headers
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Borg^Queen	hi anyone home?
Borg^Queen	kde is no longer placing icons on the desktop for usb devices
Borg^Queen	anyone have any suggestions?
MobileTurkey	hi
MobileTurkey	I am home :) but a bit late on the answer
MobileTurkey	Borg^Queen: what distro are you using?
MobileTurkey	seems HAL related, and since hal is deprecated, it is possible that your distro has removed it.
Borg^Queen	hi sorry
Borg^Queen	No hal, coldplug
Borg^Queen	it was working fine until a usb drive was pulled without unmounting
Borg^Queen	I also had 3 more drive on at the time
Borg^Queen	I umounted them and reinstalled the distro after I couldn't resolve it thinking Ihad damaged it
Borg^Queen	but it doesn't work
Borg^Queen	there's no hardware damage btw
Borg^Queen	when I google all I get are kde4 hate articles, they're useless
Borg^Queen	any ideas?
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Borg^Queen	hi anyone alive?
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 521 filed by contact@philipashmore.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=521 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Trinity networking breaks with network-manager 0.9
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tbottu	10michaelmartin007@hotmail.de changed the Status on bug 518 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=518 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, Amarok-trinity by Clementine authors development.
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 522 filed by chaotickjg@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=522 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, K3B has issue verifying burn
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 494 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=494 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, nspluginviewer fix in r1224648 fails with Adobe flash 10.3 and flash 11beta
Xu_R	sorry for delays... it's been a really rough week... climaxing today >_>
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: yea, they did the same thing to java. (i hate oracle i hate oracle i hate oracle :P)
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MutantTurkey	Xu_R: oracle is terrble
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: and busy week eh? Me Tree.
MutantTurkey	three'
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KingSphinx	So what kind of stupid crap did Oracle pull now?
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 519 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=519 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, qt3 - libjpeg issue
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Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: thanks for applying patch... what about bug #520?
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=520 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, qt3 doesn't compiles without libXinerama headers
kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: Are you sure xim does not use Xinerama in any form?
kb9vqf	I can't find any references to Xinerama in the source so...
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 520 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=520 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, qt3 doesn't compiles without libXinerama headers
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Fat-Zer	thanks again...
Fat-Zer	kdm still doesn't works properly for me...
Fat-Zer	if i click shutdown in menu it hangs up.
Fat-Zer	but if i choose remote connections and then click shotdown it works ok.
Fat-Zer	strange...
Fat-Zer	tsak also doesn't work...
kb9vqf	well, keep debugging kdm :)
kb9vqf	as far as task goes it could be any number of things
Fat-Zer	does it uses hal or dbus?
kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: Neither--kernel devices only
kb9vqf	the code is very simple
Fat-Zer	i meen kdm
kb9vqf	oh
kb9vqf	I have no idea, sorry
kb9vqf	AFAIK it does not use HAL
kb9vqf	or DBUS for that matter
kb9vqf	but I could be wrong :)
KingSphinx	...after reading the channel logs, it appears that the Clementine team was interested in helping TDE?
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Fat-Zer	is there any new internalization in trinity?
Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: one more time about krootbacking, why are you moved it from kdeartwork? screensavers anyway won't work without kdeartwork/kscreansaver...
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kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: Because krootbacking is needed by ksmserver when ARGB visuals are active
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Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: found out the roots of my kdm issue...
Fat-Zer	if i'm clicking shotdown the window, that proposes varients appears on the background, under login box
Fat-Zer	but i don't know how to fix it...
kb9vqf	oh
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: Does your KDM session use themes or is it the standard unthemed greeter?
Fat-Zer	seams it's a theme that's installs with kdm... a minute...
Fat-Zer	here it is: http://itmag.es/5SZvt
kb9vqf	I can replicate the problem now
Fat-Zer	oh... great =)... should i post a bug?
kb9vqf	no
kb9vqf	I may have a fix very shortly
kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: Fixed in SVN revision 1255984.
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: howdy partner? What news hails from the west?
BQ-AFK	hey people, if all goes well, TDE may be included as the default (or as an option) for an Ark Linux release.
BQ-AFK	No promises but we are trying.
BQ-AFK	bbl
Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: great! thanks...
* strangelv claps and cheersl loudly
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BQ-AFK	gn to all rather
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Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: another problem... if i chose shutdown->cancel i can't get focus to the password field...
Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: kb9vqf: about cmake... as i sad i want help... i think i'll begin with kdeartwork... but want to start with? how to organise work?
Fat-Zer	or login...
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MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: to get started you'll need a CMakeLists.txt and a ConfigureChecks.txt and a few other files I think
MutantTurkey	what you should do is look at how kdegraphics is done ( it's very simple mostly)
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kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: Are you running the modified code?
kb9vqf	The fix in SVN repairs both problems
kb9vqf	Hi MutantTurkey
kb9vqf	Not much time to chat now, but I thought I'd let you know I'm not dead ;-)
kb9vqf	BTW it might be a good idea to focus on repairing the bugs on the bugtracker so that we can get this next release out the door....
MutantTurkey	I know. Laptop comes wednesday.
MutantTurkey	(tomorrow) then I will install debian and hack away
Xu_R|Zombie|Dead	(I am. I am dying in terms of grades and sleep DX)
MutantTurkey	Xu_R|Zombie|Dead: d00de me too. I am almost sure that I failed my chemistry exam. My prof loves to say " okay the chapters for the test are X Y and Z and then put stuff on from A B and C
MutantTurkey	:|
Xu_R|Zombie|Dead	my physics teacher told us straight out that he's not teaching anything and we have a textbook ._."
Xu_R|Zombie|Dead	did I mention the hell that is called quest.cns.utexas.edu? X_X
MutantTurkey	oh boy
MutantTurkey	anyway. back to playing my old copy of star wars :P
Fat-Zer	kb9vqf&#1078; YES, I'M RUNNING MODIFIED CODE...
Fat-Zer	sorry... caps...
Fat-Zer	strange... now everething is fine...
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 523 filed by mario.fetka@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=523 blocker, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, moc & uic installed as moc-qt3 uic-qt3
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 524 filed by mario.fetka@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=524 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, tqt interface with gcc 4.6
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 525 filed by mario.fetka@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=525 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, libgsl.a conflicts with "GNU Scientific Library"
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 526 filed by michaelmartin007@hotmail.de.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=526 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kmix. Add widget to configure pulseaudio. Port veromix python code to TDE in c++.
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 523 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=523 blocker, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, moc & uic installed as moc-qt3 uic-qt3
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 524 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=524 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, tqt interface with gcc 4.6
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MutantTurkey	blooper
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MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: got my laptop!
kb9vqf	so you can fix bugs now? :)
MobileTurkey	installing debian tonight.
MobileTurkey	I have a new years party at my girlfriends familys house thats going to run late
MobileTurkey	but after that...
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: installing debian now.
MutantTurkey	any advice on dual booting w7?
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: hitting some walls... the install is kicking my butt
kb9vqf	??
MutantTurkey	the whole keeping W7 + archlinux is confusing
MutantTurkey	really badly docmented suprisinly
MutantTurkey	going to try booting into ubuntu now
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 525 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=525 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, libgsl.a conflicts with "GNU Scientific Library"
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MutantTurkey	:|
MutantTurkey	W7 is a real PITA because it has used up 3 partitions on its own
MutantTurkey	only can have 4 partitions without using extended partitions....
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tbottu	10michaelmartin007@hotmail.de marked bug 526 as a duplicate of bug 490.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=526 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED DUPLICATE, kmix. Add widget to configure pulseaudio. Port veromix python code to TDE in c++.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=490 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, adding support for PulseAudio application volume control
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 527 filed by mario.fetka@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=527 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Extra Translations
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 528 filed by mario.fetka@gmail.com.
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tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=528 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, qt kde integration
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: getting going still. have no fear
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fos	Are the nightly lucid builds currently working? I wanted to test the changes from rev 1255984 (the KDM dialog not appearing), but it doesn't seem to be built yet...
kb9vqf	The supercomputer that the nightly builds run on is currently allocated to another task
kb9vqf	Nightly builds should resume in the next couple of days
kb9vqf	remember that time on the build computer is donated to the project when it would otherwise be idle ;-)
fos	ah, thanks!
kb9vqf	np
fos	another question: kdelibs/kdeprint/kmvirtualmanager.cpp +182 points to the wrong file
fos	/.cups/.lpoptions should be /.cups/lpoptions instead
kb9vqf	looks like a simple oversight
fos	line 308 points to the correct file ;-)
kb9vqf	I can fix that real quick
fos	should I open a bug report for this?
kb9vqf	no, I'll fix it now
fos	thx!
kb9vqf	fos: Fixed in SVN revision 1256361, thanks for letting me know...
fos	np, it was quite annoying not to be able to use a default printer, so I'm glad it's fixed ;-)
fos	another thing in my patch list: in kdebase/kioslave/media/mediamanager/halbackend.cpp settings in mediamanagerrc are specific for a single device
fos	are there any reasons against adding a [Global] group, containing settings for all devices?
kb9vqf	No, it just wasn't implemented
kb9vqf	Patches are welcome :)
fos	does it have to contain a GUI? ;-)
kb9vqf	No, not at this point
kb9vqf	Once the backend is in place someone can add the GUI later
fos	ok, I think I'll create a patch then ;-)
kb9vqf	This was done all throughout KDE develpoment
kb9vqf	OK
kb9vqf	:)
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: well I have installed ubuntu, it is quite absymal. time to install trinity! :D
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	Linux these days is quite abysmal, isn't it? :-P
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: seriously terrible.
MutantTurkey	nope arch is awesome
kb9vqf	arch isn't useing the latest software
MutantTurkey	it didn't add me to the sudoers file, or give me the root password to set. how am I supposed to update?
kb9vqf	*using
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: ......
MutantTurkey	it is
MutantTurkey	ubuntu isn't
kb9vqf	oh
MutantTurkey	ubuntu is still on 2.6 kernel :)
kb9vqf	ah, ok
* kb9vqf runs kernels from the mainline
MutantTurkey	yeah, arch is sometimes a little to gung ho about updating and we get some problems
kb9vqf	3.0.4 here :0
MutantTurkey	but ususally nothing more than a quick downgrade
kb9vqf	it should have added you to the sudoers file
kb9vqf	you should be able to "sudo passwd"
kb9vqf	I thought even the latest versions of Unity/Gnome and KDE4 were quite bad....
MutantTurkey	nope...
MutantTurkey	i had to drop to fallback shell and modify it
MutantTurkey	I can't imagine a basic user having to deal wit hthat
kb9vqf	ugh
kb9vqf	that's why I make the Trinity LiveCDs
kb9vqf	but it is a lot of effort...I have not yet been able to automate that process
MutantTurkey	yeah.
MutantTurkey	I could make Trinity/Arch CD's
MutantTurkey	we have a nice framework for automating cd builds
kb9vqf	that would be cool
MutantTurkey	anyway now I need to get rid of ubuntu hell and add trinity
kb9vqf	check the mailing list
kb9vqf	I can get you the link I suppose
MutantTurkey	isn't it just in the website?
kb9vqf	http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::1368
kb9vqf	You probably want to use the nightly builds
kb9vqf	and not the archaic packages from 3.5.12
kb9vqf	BTW I strongly recommend you use the 3.0.4 kernel from the mainline PPA
kb9vqf	It is so wonderful compared to the default kernel ;-)
kb9vqf	so stable....
MutantTurkey	of course I use it...
MutantTurkey	wait what is the PPA?
MutantTurkey	I mean on arcvh at least. I am finding it to work well, though not all the power regressions are fixed :[
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: so how do I use the daily builds?
kb9vqf	see the link I poseted above
kb9vqf	*posted
kb9vqf	and here's the kernel PPA (personal package archive): http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/v3.0.4-oneiric/
MutantTurkey	okay thanks
MutantTurkey	http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::1368
MutantTurkey	that seems to just be a link to the ttf message
kb9vqf	uhhh...no
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Scroll down
kb9vqf	you will see some long text lines
kb9vqf	follow the instructions that wrap those lines of text ;-)
kb9vqf	also make sure you have copied the entire URL
MutantTurkey	my internet is being funky, oh okay got it!
MutantTurkey	awesome
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: something about pubke
kb9vqf	ignore it
MutantTurkey	signatures couldn't be verified...
MutantTurkey	okay cool
kb9vqf	known issue on the nightlies
MutantTurkey	its funny because arch is just getting signed packages
MutantTurkey	in the last year
kb9vqf	:eek:
MutantTurkey	but I don't see it as a big issue
kb9vqf	It is actually
MutantTurkey	I know thats what they say
kb9vqf	it would be very easy to hack a mirror and inject virus-ridden packages
MutantTurkey	I only use mirrors I trust though
kb9vqf	the project maintainer probably wouldn't even know
MutantTurkey	anyway, It's all theoretical because it's never happened
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	but with kernel.org hacked...
* kb9vqf runs scared
MutantTurkey	I know
kb9vqf	anyway the main release uses correct signatures
MutantTurkey	good
kb9vqf	the problem is only with the nightlies
MutantTurkey	I am not a big netsec person at all
kb9vqf	ah
kb9vqf	I have to be given the equipment in use here
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	and security is a bit of a hobby...
kb9vqf	(for me that is)
kb9vqf	I was laughing the other day when it was revealed the Sony hacks used SQL injection
kb9vqf	seiously??
kb9vqf	on a big global system like that?
kb9vqf	:))
MutantTurkey	yeah
MutantTurkey	thats embarassing
kb9vqf	no kidding
MutantTurkey	but thats all these "hackers" can do
kb9vqf	yep
MutantTurkey	they just sql inject and pretend they are amazing
kb9vqf	i mean with PHP there is no excuse for that
MutantTurkey	therefore I run NO sql db's and load static files.
kb9vqf	it's like leaving buffer overflow vulnerable code in place in modern apps
kb9vqf	this is 2011, not 1990
kb9vqf	:)
MutantTurkey	yeah which is also embarassing (adobe flash)
kb9vqf	grrr
kb9vqf	I'm just waiting for the world's first GPU virus to come out of that
kb9vqf	actually that would be pretty scary
MutantTurkey	yeah seriously.
kb9vqf	the GPU can poke memory just like the CPU can
kb9vqf	:eek:
* MutantTurkey hides
MutantTurkey	who mirrors all of this?
kb9vqf	If that happens we will need separate main computers and terminals again :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: which is the way we are going anyways...
MutantTurkey	back to the cloud
kb9vqf	University of Idaho, and an IT professional in Eurpoe
kb9vqf	*Europe
kb9vqf	There is a third mirror but it is offline ATM
kb9vqf	ah, but the cloud is all about some third party holding your data hostage while you pony up lots of $$$$
kb9vqf	no thanks
kb9vqf	*private* clouds I could get into
kb9vqf	where the infrastructure is hosted on private equipment with open source software
kb9vqf	i.e. fully owned by the user
kb9vqf	anyway, back on topic... :)
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fos	another question: would should be done with translations of new strings?
fos	We have translated a few of them (i.e. those that our users usually see ;-)) to German and generated new .po files...
kb9vqf	upload the new .po files to a bug report
kb9vqf	I will merge them into the existing translations in SVN
kb9vqf	I think the .po file is sufficient; if not I will request another file in the bug report :)
fos	ok :-)
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MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: got it running
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MobileTurkey	still ubuntu is terrible.
kb9vqf	Even with Trinity??
MobileTurkey	well a vast improvement...
MobileTurkey	still getting all my settings and such
MobileTurkey	amarok can't do music over fish://  darn
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: bluetooth is broken too also?
MobileTurkey	everything else is working well
kb9vqf	bluetooth is broken, yes
kb9vqf	you can blame libbluez
kb9vqf	and the fact that I have no bluetooth hardware :-P
kb9vqf	they changed the API
MobileTurkey	I have bluetooth hardware
MobileTurkey	now
kb9vqf	ah
kb9vqf	well feel free to port the existing bluetooth service to the new libbluez API...
kb9vqf	it will have to be reenabled in CMakeLists.txt or Makefile.am for building
MobileTurkey	I will look at the API changes
MobileTurkey	I am mostly unfamiliar with Bluetooth ( only have it now on my laptop and phone)
kb9vqf	ok
MobileTurkey	but I could poke around
MobileTurkey	what functionality did it previously offer?
kb9vqf	I think file browsing
kb9vqf	not sure
kb9vqf	it has been broken for a few years now
MobileTurkey	okay
MobileTurkey	and is Power managerment broken?
kb9vqf	no
kb9vqf	it works fine, but needs HAL
MobileTurkey	can I do that with ubuntu?
kb9vqf	yep
MobileTurkey	cool
kb9vqf	apt-get install hal-trinity
MobileTurkey	I might just have to switch over to debian tbh
MobileTurkey	ubuntu is terrible...
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: is there some sort of trinity-extras package as well?
kb9vqf	you can use Debian, that's fine
kb9vqf	and no I dont' have a package like that
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: okay just wondering
kb9vqf	Remember the project is based in the United States
kb9vqf	so I have to be extra careful :)
MobileTurkey	oh no not like the "extras" from ubuntu
MobileTurkey	like this: intsall package "gnome:" would give me the basic desktop "gnome-extras" would give me all the other little apps and programs that gnome project has
kb9vqf	oh
kb9vqf	yes :)
kb9vqf	kubuntu-default-settings-trinity
kb9vqf	IIRC
kb9vqf	or it might be something else...
kb9vqf	do a search in Synaptic for kubuntu and trinity
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schreiberstein	Hello!
MobileTurkey	hey schreiberstein
MobileTurkey	how goes it
schreiberstein	I'm fine! And you?
MobileTurkey	I am well. What brings you here?
schreiberstein	I just read that there is a trinity irc channel. Os i was just checking if it exists :-D
schreiberstein	And, of course, I'm using trinity
MobileTurkey	And, of course, we do exist!
MobileTurkey	:)
schreiberstein	:-D
schreiberstein	That'S great!
MobileTurkey	schreiberstein: How long have you been using trinity?
schreiberstein	round about 1 month.
schreiberstein	On my homeserver
schreiberstein	It's really cool
MobileTurkey	thanks!
MobileTurkey	are you finding it useful?
schreiberstein	yep.
schreiberstein	it'S the best desktop environment
schreiberstein	and everything worked out of the box.
MobileTurkey	:) indeed it is.
MobileTurkey	sweet. what distrobution are you running it on?
schreiberstein	Ubuntu 10.04
schreiberstein	It's a pain on arch linux..
schreiberstein	Buggy on arch.
MobileTurkey	schreiberstein: I know :) I am actually the guy who is working on it...
MobileTurkey	so that's a slap in the face, well deserved.
schreiberstein	no!
schreiberstein	no worries!
MobileTurkey	I've been trying to pull together packages but you know, arch is rather, bleeding edge
schreiberstein	yep.
MobileTurkey	schreiberstein: I am a big arch lover though.
schreiberstein	arch sucks sometimes.
MobileTurkey	i would just like to have the best environment (trinity) on the best distro (arch)
MobileTurkey	:D
schreiberstein	well... arch isn'T the best distro.. well.. i love pacman + all the great arch stuff...
schreiberstein	but there is no good desktop environment available atm.
schreiberstein	gnome 2 -> trashed ; kde3 -> trashed (official)
schreiberstein	and lots of thing didn'T work... automount... etc..
schreiberstein	that's annoying...
schreiberstein	so... i'm using ubuntu :-)
schreiberstein	trinity works great on it.. and it'S super stable
MobileTurkey	I agree with you thatmost of the large DEs are stinky
schreiberstein	MobileTurkey:  What OS are you using?
schreiberstein	*do you use
MobileTurkey	schreiberstein: I use archlinux
MobileTurkey	for trinity development/testing I am using Ubuntu
MobileTurkey	in fact I am just getting it setup on my new laptop and am not really liking it to much
MobileTurkey	Ubuntu is a bit of a pain with apt-get
schreiberstein	yep.. pacman is much faster + simpler
MobileTurkey	oh totally
MobileTurkey	and ubuntu is just getting less and less linuxy by the release
MobileTurkey	the new unity interface feels like a crappy mac ripoff
schreiberstein	MobileTurkey: I can't start trinity SVN on arch x86_64. It stucks at ksplash
kb9vqf	What we need is Debian with more up to date packages...hmmm....like Ubuntu originally was :-
kb9vqf	:-P
MobileTurkey	schreiberstein: wait do you have packages?
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: yep
MobileTurkey	or are you just doing manual compilation
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: yep yep yep yep. I remember ubuntu 7.10 and I was thinking "wow this is awesome!"
schreiberstein	MobileTurkey:  No.. I'm using the repo : https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Trinity#Binary_Packages_-_From_Trinity_SVN_Code
MobileTurkey	...
MobileTurkey	Oh crap
MobileTurkey	I forgot that David Rankin made a wiki page
MobileTurkey	schreiberstein: yes, those won't work anymore, Inface they haven't been updated since about march, when david sort of dropped off the radar
schreiberstein	So i used the kdemod3 rebuild of elvaka...
MobileTurkey	elvaka?
MobileTurkey	kdemod is dead though yes?
schreiberstein	https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=97612
MobileTurkey	I cannot find my glasses, they have been missing a few weeks.
MobileTurkey	I am practically blind :|
schreiberstein	He rebuilt kdemod3 with trinity sources.
MobileTurkey	is it updated?
schreiberstein	oh dear!
schreiberstein	i guess yes.
* kb9vqf reminds everyone to keep bad language off the channel!
schreiberstein	kb9vqf:  Who said something bad?
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey
kb9vqf	He's been using bad words for some time now :-P
kb9vqf	not you :)
schreiberstein	kb9vqf:  BTW. Thank you for repairing the ttf-bitstream-vera problem :-)
kb9vqf	np
kb9vqf	glad to get these "minor" fixes into SVN--it will improve the quality of the finished product immensely
kb9vqf	*they will
MobileTurkey	definitely
schreiberstein	kb9vqf: I'm from germany and i see a lot of english sentences in trinity. Can I help with translating? I'm not a programmer atm.
MobileTurkey	I've got Rosh Hashanah dinner at my girlfriends. round 2
MobileTurkey	i'll be back late
kb9vqf	schreiberstein: You should be able to open the .po files from the i18n folder in SVN with KBabel
kb9vqf	Translate the strings and attach the fixed .po file to a new bug report
kb9vqf	fos may be able to help you out
kb9vqf	if you ask nicely :)
schreiberstein	.. of course :-D
schreiberstein	..that sounds easy... i'll do that :-)
fos	I'm currently merging the translation of kdesktop.po, kicker.po and kio_media.po
fos	but I'd be glad to have someone to discuss the translation ;-)
fos	(especially as I haven't found some of the strings in the GUI and have no idea about their context ;-))
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schreiberstein	fos:  http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/kde-i18n/ <-- This one?
fos	yes, that seems to be the same one as the file included in the Ubuntu source package
schreiberstein	fos:  Thank you!
fos	schreiberstein: I've uploaded my current progress to www.mediafire.com/?w21ux4mi0va6l
schreiberstein	fos:  thx!
fos	going to bed now :-)
schreiberstein	fos:  Sleep well!
fos	txh!
fos	thx
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schreiberstein	are there plans for updating konqueror to support newer websites?
schreiberstein	Need some sleep... 0:50 AM ...
schreiberstein	Good night everyone!
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MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: all is well now
MobileTurkey	except that alt+f2 doesn't show the run command thing.
kb9vqf	set the shortcut for it in the control center...
MobileTurkey	okay :)
MobileTurkey	excellent
MobileTurkey	Well now I have a highly functional desktop
MobileTurkey	well gettng there :)
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: another thing on my list is definitely setting up better touchpad settings
kb9vqf	There should be a mouse module in the control center...
MobileTurkey	Yes, doesn't cover what I need
MobileTurkey	like multitouch
MobileTurkey	but that is expected
MobileTurkey	even Unity has flaky settings for it
MobileTurkey	gotta reboot and see if kdm is working well
MobileTurkey	bbs
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MutantTu1key	kb9vqf: back to good old arch :)
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KingSphinx	Question about the nightly repos... does the entire DE get updated every day or is it bits and pieces?
kb9vqf	only that which has changed in SVN since the last build
kb9vqf	i.e. if only kdebase received commits only kdebase would be rebuilt
kb9vqf	also, right now the build farm is being used for other tasks (it is on loan from a business who has donated the idle time to the Trinity project)
kb9vqf	so nightly builds are not-so-nightly ATM
KingSphinx	lol
kb9vqf	?
KingSphinx	If I feel brave enough, I'll try nightlies, but right now I still feel like waiting for 3.5.13 to officially release.
kb9vqf	ah
kb9vqf	well, 3.5.13 won't release until a) we get more people testing the nightlies, which should be considered beta versions, and b) there are more bugs fixed on the bugtracker
KingSphinx	And by the way, I've ditched KDE 4 again... kinda hard to really call a desktop usable when doing something like exiting Kopete causes the whole desktop to crash. >_>;
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	I'm not surprised
kb9vqf	the underlying architecture in KDE4 is seriously flawed
KingSphinx	So it's back to GNOME/Unity for me for now.
kb9vqf	all plasma "apps" share the same Linux process AFAIK
kb9vqf	so if one goes down the whole desktop goes down
KingSphinx	Well, that's kinda dumb.
KingSphinx	At least split it up into "core" Plasma stuff and then "the rest" (for lack of a better term)
kb9vqf	yeah, but still
kb9vqf	dumb dumb dumb
kb9vqf	not only that, it has to be a  security nightmare
kb9vqf	what prevents one app from poking the memory of another one?
kb9vqf	and stealing login credentials, putting up spam social network posts, etc.
kb9vqf	I dunno
kb9vqf	looks like 0 thought went into that design decision
kb9vqf	more of an "it just evolved that way" kind of thing :-P
KingSphinx	Hence the benefits of making "fancy" stuff separate processes. I mean, SuperKaramba didn't even come with 3.x, you had to install it yourself IIRC.
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	and it was NEVER an integral part of the desktop
kb9vqf	the desktop must be as secure as possible
kb9vqf	adding plasma makes it inherently insecure
kb9vqf	so...I can't use KDE4 in my business for security reasons alone :-P
kb9vqf	let alone the lost productivity, etc.
kb9vqf	oh well
kb9vqf	this is why Trinity is available
kb9vqf	I do wish KDE4 had cleaned up their act with 4.0 though
KingSphinx	Speaking of which (SuperKaramba and the like), I couldn't for the life of me remember how to do stuff like install Compiz in Trinity. I remember doing it once, but it somehow borked my graphics driver and I was forced to migrate to Fedora for a while.
kb9vqf	ahh
kb9vqf	well, I recommend installing fusion-icon
kb9vqf	that should pull in compiz and give you a tool to enable compiz
kb9vqf	fusion-icon-trinity actually
KingSphinx	Noted for future referen- wait, fusion-icon's already installed. Well, that's one step out of the way, at least.
kb9vqf	BTW Trinity has its own built-in and highly integrated compositor in the latest nightly builds :)
kb9vqf	it doesn't do nearly as much eye candy as Compiz, but it does enable ARGB mode and you can run window fades and other basic stuff
KingSphinx	You got Trinity to do its own compositing now?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	and it's so much easier to set up than Compiz :-P
kb9vqf	(it doesn't do nearly as much, but hey, it just works :))
KingSphinx	sshh, don't let Apple hear you say "it just works" :P
kb9vqf	it works out of the box?
kb9vqf	actually it needs more testing (hint hint)
kb9vqf	Intel and nVidia seem to work pretty well
kb9vqf	as well as ATI
kb9vqf	I think there are only a couple of minor glitches left
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Xu_R|School	hey MobileTurkey
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MutantTurkey1	kb9vqf: still havent figured out the power managerment dealio
MutantTurkey1	kb9vqf: looking at the bluez api right now
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tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Component on bug 36 from kdebase to debian.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=36 minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, UNCONFIRMED, Upgrading kdm-kde3 resets the default login manager to gdm
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schreiberstein	Hello!
schreiberstein	Nobody @ /home ?
fos	only if [ "`readlink /home`" == "/work" ] ;-)
schreiberstein	lol
fos	schreiberstein: I guess you haven't tried to rebuild the translation packages yet, have you?
schreiberstein	fos: No. But i downloaded them and viewed them with kbabel.
schreiberstein	I'm working at my LFS + setting up my homeserver --> Not much time
fos	no problem, I'm just interested because I don't get the packages to compile any more...
schreiberstein	i never built packages on ubuntu. seems to be really complicated. i'm working with arch linux' pacman pkgmanager
fos	building on Ubuntu is ok if you have a proper build setup :-)
fos	though I personally also prefer simpler packaging systems ;-)
schreiberstein	:-)
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Space_Man	I'm updating kubuntu 11.04 with the nightly builds, which default display manager should I pick  kdm-kde3 or kdm-trinity?
kb9vqf	kdm-trinity
Space_Man	thanks
kb9vqf	np
Space_Man	adept sat still for about 30 minutes claiming it was 'preparing'
kb9vqf	huh
kb9vqf	well, it is  alarge upgrade...
Space_Man	when I pressed show details there was a screen asking for my choice :P
kb9vqf	ah, ok
Space_Man	192 packages, 261MB
kb9vqf	well, Adept is not the best application unfortunately
kb9vqf	the guy who designed it needed to think more about the user interface :-P
* Space_Man likes the user interface
Space_Man	it is nice and simple
Space_Man	I do ignore all the tags
kb9vqf	well, it's the little things
kb9vqf	like the problem you mentioned above
kb9vqf	that and the fact that it pops up an error if any package fails to install
kb9vqf	the problem there is that if you click OK it forcibly terminates the upgrade :-P
kb9vqf	which can easily create a bigger mess than if you did NOT click OK
Space_Man	it also crashes a lot :(
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MutantTurkey	schreiberstein: are you working on PKGBUILDs?
MutantTurkey	if you look on our git (git.trinitydesktop.org there is some work from a few people under arch)
schreiberstein	MutantTurkey: No. I'm not interested in arch anymore cause i'm doing a linux from scratch ;-)
MutantTurkey	oh cool
MutantTurkey	LFS is a fun project to learn
MutantTurkey	not to good in long term
schreiberstein	MutantTurkey:  ?! It is! Use pacman packager and it's like arch.
schreiberstein	MutantTurkey:  Of course it's a lot of work...
schreiberstein	MutantTurkey:  But it'S going to be a little distribution later on...
schreiberstein	MutantTurkey:  And i'll build trinity packages for it... later ;-)
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MutantTurkey1	anyone recall how to register nicks?
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MutantTurkey	okay :D
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MobileTurkey	anyone seen Piki in a while?
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KingSphinx	I honestly can't believe it's almost time for Onieric... hard to believe it's been a year since TDE's had a major (public) upgrade.
KingSphinx	I know, I know, testers/feedback/devs, but I'd just thought I'd note it.
kb9vqf	I know, I know :-P
kb9vqf	Right now its BUGS
kb9vqf	we can't seem to get anyone here to focus on repairing the bugs on the bugtracker
kb9vqf	I guess the worst case is that we release 3.5.12 as-is, then force a 3.5.13 and 3.5.14 instead of 3.5.13 and 3.6.0
kb9vqf	i.e. insert a bugfix release into the release schedule
kb9vqf	Xu_R|Tired, MutantTurkey: Any chance of fixing some bugs or are we going to have to do this? ^^^^^^^
Xu_R|Tired	I'm sorry, I've been dead literally all month DX
Xu_R|Tired	i've even thrown notepad++ on the school comp so that I can work on packaging during free periods :( sorry
KingSphinx	I don't do programming, but Notepad++ is the best text editor for Windows, hands-down.
KingSphinx	Also, as-is? You mean release an 11.10 variant with the ol' 3.5.12?
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cpatrick008	i was wondering if you were going to make a natty iso or skip it and make a oneiric iso
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kb9vqf	no, as-is means the current state of the code in SVN
kb9vqf	we can't build 3.5.12 for anything higher than Maverick
Z_God	3.5.12 for maverick runs fine on natty at least
Z_God	you only need to add the universe or updates or smth repos from maverick to satisfy all the dependencies, but then it will just install and work
Z_God	I hope to look at kmozilla again this weekend btw, I moved countries and started at uni there so I was a bit busy last week
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schreiberstein	Hello!
schreiberstein	...another problem : http://pastebin.com/b2kdpVC2
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Z_God	schreiberstein: you ran apt-get update ?
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Z_God	kb9vqf: I can imagine you don't know anything about GTK, but still maybe you can give a hint again :)
kb9vqf	possibly...I did work with gtk before...
Z_God	I found that the problem I now have is that the function called at lin 150 in this file: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/kdebindings/xparts/src/gtk/gtkpart.c?view=markup
Z_God	hangs
Z_God	line*
Z_God	it's probably a callback that's failing
Z_God	unfortunately there is not much documentation on mozilla's gtkembed stuff
kb9vqf	attach to the stuck process with gdb
kb9vqf	then press ctrl+c
kb9vqf	and type bt
kb9vqf	that will tell you exactly where it is stuck and why
Z_God	hmm, I wonder if that's possible...
kb9vqf	well...maybe not why...but where for sure :)
Z_God	things seems to get killed because of this hang
kb9vqf	yes, just run ps aux and find your stuck process
kb9vqf	oh
kb9vqf	you could theoretically send SIGSTOP to the process before it is killed
kb9vqf	I assume it takes a second or so to kill?
Z_God	less I'd say ...
kb9vqf	if so you might be able to pipe the pid of the process to the kill program
Z_God	everything runs quite fast
Z_God	;)
kb9vqf	e.g. with kill SIGSTOP `ps aux | grep mozblah | awk 'print something'`
kb9vqf	you would have to fill in the blahs and the sigstop signal number ;-)
Z_God	maybe I could put a debug break before that call?
kb9vqf	you can force a process to send SIGSTOP to itself
Z_God	and then step through?
kb9vqf	I have used that trick many times :)
Z_God	ok?
kb9vqf	it works very well
kb9vqf	you then just look for the stopped process (state T IIRC)
kb9vqf	and attach with gdb
Z_God	I think this code is part of the kmozilla binary that is built in the end
Z_God	ah no
Z_God	it's the lib
Z_God	libgtkxparts
kb9vqf	here's the code: raise(SIGSTOP);
kb9vqf	if you send that signal then the parent process will stop
kb9vqf	and you can still debug it
kb9vqf	remember that methods in libraries are executed just the same as regular programs ;-)
kb9vqf	and if you raise SIGSTOP the program that uses the library will stop and wait for you to send SIGCONT
kb9vqf	or attach to it with GDB and continue
kb9vqf	make sense?
Z_God	it's hanging now
Z_God	the kmozilla process is still alive :)
kb9vqf	a ps aux should reveal that it is in state T
kb9vqf	i.e. stopped
Z_God	yep :)
kb9vqf	great!
kb9vqf	now attach with gdb
Z_God	done
Z_God	had to run gdb as root though
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	that makes sense
kb9vqf	there are security restrictions in place by default
Z_God	and I'm downloading the xulrunner debug symbols now, so I may have to redo this in a sec
kb9vqf	now you should be able to type 'c' and have the program continue to termination, or type 'n' and single step to the next line of code
Z_God	ah
Z_God	kmozilla segfaults it seems
kb9vqf	and now type 'bt'
kb9vqf	that will tell you why :)
kb9vqf	or rather where the execption happened, and you can probably figure out why pretty easily from the stack trace
Z_God	I'm getting a huge stack trace now (with xulrunner symbols now)
Z_God	http://pastebin.com/9JEvinZr
kb9vqf	Is this your code?
kb9vqf	gtkmozembed2.cpp
Z_God	no, I think it's mozilla's code
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbugs.debian.org%2F578109&rct=j&q=gtkmozembed2.cpp%3A490&ei=imuHTsmkAaSosQLyrvW1Dw&usg=AFQjCNEKpSuJU6OKvLJDz-lhJ83Jehsl-g&sig2=LAgqUbbh7z997FHtK4P27w
kb9vqf	or rather http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=578109
kb9vqf	ah darn, they removed gtkmozembed in version 5.0
kb9vqf	so this is a dead end
Z_God	version 5.0 of what?
Z_God	I have xulrunner version 1.9.2 here
kb9vqf	firefox I think
kb9vqf	Here's something that might help: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=205499#c7
tbottu	04Bug 205499: was not found.
kb9vqf	but either way unless we can get this working and get gtkmozembed back into Firefox this is a dead end
kb9vqf	I can't find too much more about gtkmozembed's demise
kb9vqf	hmmm
Z_God	I guess yep... but I will still try some things
Z_God	firefox here is also version 3.6
kb9vqf	well, I say since you are close just make it work
kb9vqf	if you can :)
kb9vqf	maybe gtkmozembed can be built separately
* kb9vqf hates Linux and their constant removal of useful stuff
Z_God	I will at least look for the mozilla developer irc channel & ask there
kb9vqf	ok
Z_God	I also found this: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=531335
tbottu	04Bug 531335: was not found.
Z_God	ah that's in another file
Z_God	ah no, I was looking in the wrong file ...
Z_God	mNavigation->SetSessionHistory(mSessionHistory); this is the segfaulting line...
Z_God	looks innocent enough to me
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Z_God	it seems this compreg file may indeed be related, I'm searching my homedir now for copies of that file
Z_God	kb9vqf: it's sort of working !!!
kb9vqf	cool!
Z_God	kmozilla opens in a separate window
Z_God	it's not embedded
Z_God	but it actually renders the page I had open in konq
kb9vqf	well that could be the Trinity embedding code I suppose
Z_God	something changed?
kb9vqf	how embedding works is that Trinity has to take the existing window  and "stuff" it into the Konqueror window
kb9vqf	no, nothing changed
kb9vqf	I'm just letting you know where to look next :)
Z_God	ah :)
Z_God	it actually turned out I had to set another environment variable
kb9vqf	so to finish my thought, if for some reason the "stuffing" function is not called, then the window would pop up on its own
kb9vqf	instead of being embedded
kb9vqf	look for any Xlib BadWindow errors on the console
Z_God	(kmozilla:14084): Gtk-WARNING **: gtk_widget_create_pango_context ()) called without screen
Z_God	I get that one a few times
kb9vqf	don't think that would be it
kb9vqf	do the navigation controls work?
Z_God	I will disable gtk debugging now
kb9vqf	i.e. back, forward, refresh, etc?
Z_God	probably not, they didn't work 10 years ago either
kb9vqf	ah, ok
Z_God	no, there are no errors at all
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	look in the code that gets the window id
kb9vqf	somewhere, somehow something has to get the window ID and pass it to the window embedding function
kb9vqf	usually the window ID is stored in a variable of type Window
kb9vqf	(case sensitive)
Z_God	I saw a lot of that code yep
kb9vqf	does it use QXEmbed?
kb9vqf	actually, can you point me to a WebSVN file and line number?
Z_God	one sec, I now have the windowid on the gtk side
Z_God	this is passed to the kde kpart using a dcop call
kb9vqf	makes sens
kb9vqf	then the kde kpart has to actually embed that window ID
kb9vqf	that's where QXEmbed might be used
kb9vqf	and QXEmbed *might* have changed in the last 10 years ;-)
Z_God	I found the code on the kde side, I'll get the svn url now
kb9vqf	ok
Z_God	http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/kdebindings/xparts/src/kde/xparthost_kpart.cpp?view=markup
Z_God	line 47
kb9vqf	can you verify that line 47 is actualyl being called?
kb9vqf	e.g. with a prinf() and fflush()?
kb9vqf	*printf
Z_God	sure, sec
Z_God	yes
Z_God	it's called
kb9vqf	with a valid window ID?
kb9vqf	print the window ID in hex and make sure it isn't 0 ir something :)
kb9vqf	*or
kb9vqf	actually decimal is OK too
Z_God	yes
Z_God	the ID is correct
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	hmmm
Z_God	it's the same as the one that's printed earlier
kb9vqf	does anything show up in the Konqueror pane?
Z_God	no, it stays empty
Z_God	when I click a link
Z_God	the status bar gets updated that it's loading that page
Z_God	and the URL bar changes
Z_God	to the new URL
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	The only thing I can think of off the bat is a protocol problem
kb9vqf	Here's the QXEmbed header: http://www.trinitydesktop.org/docs/trinity/current/kdelibs/kdeui/html/qxembed_8h_source.html
kb9vqf	not much documentation to go with it I'm afraid
kb9vqf	Can you please verify that the popup Mozilla window has the same window ID as is printed from your debug statments?
kb9vqf	IIRC there is a utility that can get the window ID of any window you click on
kb9vqf	let me find it
Z_God	ok, maybe in xutils?
kb9vqf	xwininfo
kb9vqf	run it on the command line, click on the Mozilla window, and view the results from the command line
kb9vqf	note you will need to print the window ID in hex from the kpart ;-)
kb9vqf	hence my hex comment earlier
kb9vqf	if they are the same (the kpart printf() and the results of xwininfo) then the problem must lie in the QXEmbed interface
kb9vqf	but I need to be sure :)
Z_God	yep
Z_God	they are the same
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 529 filed by patrick@serru.net.
Z_God	I was indeed printing both hex & decimal
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=529 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Logout disfunction (10.10 Trinity-ent.)
kb9vqf	Z_God: Well, you could try switching the embedding protocol I suppose
kb9vqf	setProtocol(XEMBED);
kb9vqf	before the embed() call
Z_God	ok, let me try that
kb9vqf	I don't know which one is default :-P
Z_God	seems I need to add another header for that
kb9vqf	You shouldn't...
kb9vqf	what's the compilation error?
kb9vqf	Also, here's some more API information: http://api.kde.org/3.1-api/classref/kdeui/QXEmbed.html#longdesc
Z_God	xparthost_kpart.cpp: In member function &#8216;virtual DCOPRef XPartHost_KPart::registerXPart(const DCOPRef&)&#8217;:
Z_God	xparthost_kpart.cpp:50: error: &#8216;XEMBED&#8217; was not declared in this scope
Z_God	xparthost_kpart.cpp:50: error: &#8216;setProtocol&#8217; was not declared in this scope
kb9vqf	well, you need to do it differently
kb9vqf	First, why don't you try this
kb9vqf	See what embed->embeddedWinId() returns
Z_God	ok
kb9vqf	AFTER embed->embed() was called
kb9vqf	it should return the same window ID
kb9vqf	if not then the embedding failed
Z_God	yep, it's 0
kb9vqf	also, the C++ syntax for the protocol switch would be embed->setProtocol(QXEmbed::XEMBED);
kb9vqf	and that line has to go BEFORE the embed->embed() call
Z_God	I'll try that now
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	leave the other debug statement in ;-)
Z_God	it doesn't seem to work
Z_God	so now XPLAIN?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	if that doesn't work...well...I'm out of ideas for now :-P
Z_God	same isssue
kb9vqf	hmmmm
kb9vqf	and embeddedWinId() is still returning 0 I take it?
kb9vqf	with no BadWindow errors?
Z_God	yep
Z_God	hmm
Z_God	I see a lot of BadWindow errors in my .xsession-erros
Z_God	r
kb9vqf	on the very bottom of it?
Z_God	I'll tail that one & see if they are from kmozilla
Z_God	yep
kb9vqf	sounds like they are being logged there
kb9vqf	pastebin please?
Z_God	seems not :(
Z_God	when switching back
Z_God	to khtml I do get one
Z_God	but not when switching from khtml to kmozilla
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	hmm
Z_God	http://pastebin.com/zNadVEfH
kb9vqf	try moving the embed->show() command before the embed->embed() command
Z_God	and leave the m_stub->show()?
kb9vqf	hmm
kb9vqf	wait
Z_God	just moving the embed doesn't work
Z_God	embed->show() I mean
Z_God	same issue then
kb9vqf	The BadWindow error you posted is an error in X_MapSubwindows
kb9vqf	which sounds like it could be related
Z_God	:D
Z_God	one sec
Z_God	I have something to show :)
kb9vqf	ok...
kb9vqf	Z_God: What?
Z_God	http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-BiSwJPk2dHY/Tod915u2bAI/AAAAAAAAAd8/tLv1yH1YwI0/s640/konqueror_using_gecko2.png
kb9vqf	you did that?
Z_God	yep, it's working :)
kb9vqf	what was the problem?
kb9vqf	so I know :)
Z_God	m_stub->show(); had to be before the embed->embed
kb9vqf	that's what I suspected :)
kb9vqf	and the BadWindow error confirmed it
kb9vqf	great to hear it's working!
Z_God	I will create proper patches against subversion now & mail them to the devel list?
kb9vqf	yes, please do :)
kb9vqf	then you can work on the back/forward buttons
Z_God	I hope you can create packages for these components then
Z_God	yes :)
kb9vqf	definitely
kb9vqf	it should be as simple as throwing a switch in the Makefile and packaging a new .so file
kb9vqf	well, maybe adding a configure switch as well, but...for the benefit, definitely worth the effort!
Z_God	there are a few more things I guess
Z_God	but it should be trivial :)
kb9vqf	I would expect so
kb9vqf	as long as gtkmozembed continues to be available this is great!
kb9vqf	KHTML has ALWAYS been a KDE back eye
kb9vqf	*black
kb9vqf	and it is still so under KDE4
kb9vqf	so having this available should help Trinity
Z_God	yeah, I think having multiple renderers in general is always good
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	for most people's Google/Facebook usage they will notice the bad rendering far more than the lack of fancy integration with Konqueror
kb9vqf	and this way we only need xulrunner installed, not the entire Firefox system
kb9vqf	so it saves some space on the LiveCD :)
Z_God	ah firefox is on the live cd?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	because KHTML is....just that bad :-P
kb9vqf	at least it's on the Enterprise version
kb9vqf	now I don't remember if I crammed it onto the regular version or not
Z_God	btw, I also came across this bug
Z_God	http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=32463
tbottu	04Bug 32463: was not found.
Z_God	regarding that byte order issue
Z_God	it seems it was changed to fix big endian boxes, but they just broke little endian with that
Z_God	so maybe it's possible to check for big/little endian at compile time?
kb9vqf	yes it is
kb9vqf	IIRC there is a GNU C __ define
kb9vqf	gcc *should* make __BIG_ENDIAN__ available
kb9vqf	and __LITTLE_ENDIAN__
kb9vqf	so #ifdef __BIG_ENDIAN__
kb9vqf	but this should probably also check for the gcc compiler
kb9vqf	Even better:
kb9vqf	And #include <endian.h> defines __BYTE_ORDER, __LITTLE_ENDIAN, and __BIG_ENDIAN which can be tested at compile time.
kb9vqf	and Qt has something as well IIRC
* kb9vqf is having fun spamming the channel :-P
kb9vqf	Z_God: Here you go, this is probably best: http://www.trinitydesktop.org/docs/qt3/qapplication.html#qSysInfo
Z_God	ok :)
kb9vqf	if Qt is already in use
kb9vqf	if not then use the #defines I mentioned above
Z_God	it's not
Z_God	that's the whole point of the marshalling I think ;)
kb9vqf	ok, use the endian.h #defines then
* kb9vqf was never much of a DCOP developer :-P
kb9vqf	It's a magic little black box to me :)
kb9vqf	I prefer to know the low level internals of Xorg personally
Z_God	I know more about dcop now than I ever imagined I'd know :P
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	that's great!
kb9vqf	now we have someone that can deal with it if it acts up for any reason :)
kb9vqf	this kind of diversity is a good thing
kb9vqf	means the project is healty
kb9vqf	*healthy
Z_God	I guess there's no else?
Z_God	I mean for the #ifdef
kb9vqf	#else
kb9vqf	#endif
kb9vqf	I have no idea
kb9vqf	about needing an else or not
Z_God	I will just use both big & little
kb9vqf	ok
Z_God	it makes things clear as well
kb9vqf	and the default case would then be what?
Z_God	nothing
kb9vqf	i.e. if neither BIG nor LITTLE was defined, then what would happen?
kb9vqf	would DCOP break?
kb9vqf	or would it work in a default endian-ness?
Z_God	it would break with compiling I guess
kb9vqf	well, let's be sure
Z_God	maybe you want to review my patches or..? ;)
kb9vqf	#if (!defined(__LITTLE_ENDIAN) && !defined(__BIG_ENDIAN))
kb9vqf	#error "something"
kb9vqf	#endif
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	and yes, I'll review the patches of course ;-)
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Z_God	but I have no idea what the default would need to be then
kb9vqf	that's why it just throws an error
Z_God	because there are only 2 orders I'd say
Z_God	ah yeah, makes sense
kb9vqf	better to have an error than obscure behaviour
kb9vqf	especially in something as esoteric as DCOP
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Z_God	kb9vqf: sent :)
kb9vqf	ok, thanks
Z_God	ah I forgot to add the details about the environment variables needed, I'll send another mail about that
Z_God	let me know if you have any issues with the patches or getting it to compile/work
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	I probably won't be able to work on it much today, but if you want to continue working on the back/forward buttons, etc. feel free :)
Z_God	I'm not sure yet when I'll have time, but of course I really hope to continue
Z_God	it would be good to have everything building in SVN, then I can also more easily create patches
Z_God	also, I kind of hope you will be able to reproduce that it actually works now :)
Z_God	btw. suse had several separate packages for these bindings
Z_God	I'm not sure if debian ever packaged them before
Z_God	if you want I can research a bit how suse split things up when they were still shipping it, I guess it would make sense to do it similarly
Z_God	I'm off to bed now, good night all!
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calvin	can't get on the IRC with tethering my laptop to my phone on the go. :[ what a shame
calvin	though I have been using my laptop all day and I have 50% battery still.
sultan2	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGiRiMr1qUI Mirror - This video MUST go VIRAL!.avi (The Truth About Libya) via: theamericanawakening.org
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kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	Z_God: Did you run into this? /usr/include/xulrunner-1.9.2.22/gtkmozembed.h:140: error: expected &#8216;=&#8217;, &#8216;,&#8217;, &#8216;;&#8217;, &#8216;asm&#8217; or &#8216;__attribute__&#8217; before &#8216;gtk_moz_embed_get_type&#8217;
calvin	kb9vqf: does kpackage usually take up such space?
kb9vqf	?
calvin	and I see there are multiple backends... I could write one for pacman potentially
calvin	seems to be a memory hog
kb9vqf	how so?
kb9vqf	it might have a package search database...
calvin	must be :)
calvin	it uses 15% of my 4gigs
calvin	so like 450 mb of res memory
calvin	I assume just because it loads the database. not a big deal
calvin	but a pacman backend would be almost easy, I've worked with pacman a ton and have worked on the source code and am familiar with the backend library libalpm
kb9vqf	hey, go for it :)
kb9vqf	patches are always welcome
calvin	anyway, trinity is really rocking
calvin	I have kpowermanager all setup perfectly
calvin	still trying to remove gnome from my system. doesn't seem to be a container package
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kb9vqf	nope, there isn't
kb9vqf	welcome to bad design (again) :-P
kb9vqf	and glad to hear Trinity is working well for you :)
kb9vqf	Are you running the latest code from SVN?
MobileTurkey	yes
MobileTurkey	the quickbuild yes?
MobileTurkey	kpackage seems to be really nice though, honesty browsing through apps is really handly (arch has had a few frontends, none of which I liked)
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: also I see that kmozilla is working again?
kb9vqf	working on it still :)
kb9vqf	Z_God is doing some execllent work on that front
kb9vqf	*excellent rather
MobileTurkey	that would be really good good good
MobileTurkey	though it is gtk :|
kb9vqf	I don't care
kb9vqf	I don't want to maintain a Web browser
kb9vqf	that's like reinventing the wheel
kb9vqf	over and over
MobileTurkey	It is
MobileTurkey	I concur
kb9vqf	and besides, with kgtk...well...
MobileTurkey	I mean, as long as it integrates...
kb9vqf	the lines are blurred pretty good :)
MobileTurkey	indeed
MobileTurkey	but I think a webkit backend would be better ;)
kb9vqf	feel free to work on it :-P
* MobileTurkey adds to list
kb9vqf	I am fed up with Qt4 right now
kb9vqf	Every Qt4 app I touch is slow as molasses
MobileTurkey	what are you stuck on now?
kb9vqf	It's not Trinity related actually
MobileTurkey	eh?
kb9vqf	I was just trying out new software
kb9vqf	and you can tell the Qt4 apps from the non-Qt based apps quite readily
MobileTurkey	I don't think its all qt... apps are just written crappily also.
kb9vqf	well, Qt4 adds its own special touch of bloatiness and clunky widgets :-P
MobileTurkey	qt4 just helped them jump the mental barrier of "slim desktop' to "lets have a mysql database to count the amount of times I fart in one day"
kb9vqf	I guess
kb9vqf	either way Qt4 has a very bad reputation in my mind
MobileTurkey	every time there is a push to go to the 'next new thing' people assume they need to load crap on
kb9vqf	no different than Visual Basic I suppose
kb9vqf	you can write good VB apps
MobileTurkey	it's just like the gnome2.6 -> 3 mes
kb9vqf	but most people write bad VB apps
kb9vqf	so VB gets a bad name
kb9vqf	:-P
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: I say that about C++ though
kb9vqf	C++ has its place
kb9vqf	it is perfect for the desktop
kb9vqf	it is NOT perfect for embedded systems ;-)
MobileTurkey	I think it has the tendency to grow out of control
kb9vqf	it takes more effort to manage
kb9vqf	so it is easier to let your apps bloat
MobileTurkey	yep
kb9vqf	but that's like saying that when you use an air nailer you do a bad job of roofing because you can put more nails in the roof
MobileTurkey	but again same as VB, it's not the langauge that is bad, its more the group that writes in it
kb9vqf	yep
MobileTurkey	I think the one bad thing about desktops being so accessable, is that everyone thinks they are a programmer
MobileTurkey	which is AWESOME from one point, because the community is growing, but then again, quality control goes out the window
kb9vqf	yeah
kb9vqf	in fact most people are NOT programmers
kb9vqf	most people don't even WANT to program
MobileTurkey	most people are "web developers"
kb9vqf	but when the open source devs are saying "you need to fix that yourself"....
MobileTurkey	that is also true
kb9vqf	most people are lamers, not hackers ;-)
kb9vqf	even under Linux
MobileTurkey	indeed.
MobileTurkey	especially under linux.
MobileTurkey	I'll say I am a fair share of lame
kb9vqf	yes, and I will reinforce that some :)
MobileTurkey	I just need motivation!
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kb9vqf	you alone are in control of your reputation ;-)
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MobileTurkey	tis true
kb9vqf	I know real life gets in the way
MobileTurkey	now I just need to get my development workflow setup on this lappy
kb9vqf	but come on, send in some patches already :))
MobileTurkey	xD
MobileTurkey	It's about time, but now I am using it, I will be able to do a ton more
MobileTurkey	I already have an idea for kpackager.
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: to do devel on trinity under ubuntu, do I need to install -dev package for trinity?
kb9vqf	yep
MobileTurkey	I know there is some sort of split, I am not sure though
MobileTurkey	like kdebase-dev?
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	kdebase-trinity-dev
kb9vqf	otherwise you'll get a load of KDE4 garbage
kb9vqf	*truckload
MobileTurkey	okay
MobileTurkey	also, is there a way to clone the whole svn tree without it cutting out? maybe it's only me but it errors out alot
kb9vqf	hmmm, nope
kb9vqf	I'd grab just the part you are interested in honestly
MobileTurkey	yeah good idea
MobileTurkey	wait I know! I can just scp the tree I have on my other box. ( have most of it already
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	oh fun
kb9vqf	/usr/include/glib-2.0/gobject/gtype.h:385: error: expected &#8216;=&#8217;, &#8216;,&#8217;, &#8216;;&#8217;, &#8216;asm&#8217; or &#8216;__attribute__&#8217; before &#8216;typedef&#8217;
kb9vqf	I hate that :-P
MobileTurkey	usually just a typo yes?
MobileTurkey	why are you working with the g stack?
kb9vqf	mozilla kpart
kb9vqf	and the typo wouldn't be in the Trinity code
kb9vqf	unless it's something really obscure
kb9vqf	which is why I hate this kind of problem ;-)
MobileTurkey	hmmm :|
kb9vqf	looks like I have two different glib includes specified
kb9vqf	I wonder if that could do it
kb9vqf	1.2 and 2.0
MobileTurkey	yeah, gtk is like qt in that sense, you can't have 1.2 and 2.6 or 3.0 together
MobileTurkey	symbol clashing
kb9vqf	nope
kb9vqf	err, wait
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	bad gtk version as well
kb9vqf	grrrr.....
kb9vqf	Isn't prgramming fun?
MobileTurkey	typically I find the fun part is getting an awesome idea and implementing it, the bug fixing, not so much
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	That was it BTW
kb9vqf	two include headers, one from each version :-P
kb9vqf	oh well
MobileTurkey	ouch
MobileTurkey	anyway I am going to bed (scp is still going nicely)
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kb9vqf	Z_God: Build system fixes for the Mozilla plugin are in SVN as of revision 1256729.
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Z_God	kb9vqf: great :)
Z_God	I hope you also got the kpart to work on your side?
kb9vqf	couldn't really test here as I don't have a source-built test system up and running, but it does compile...
kb9vqf	(my test systems run off of binary packages and I have not yet had time to update the packaging files for kdebindings)
Z_God	ok
Z_God	the 'getting it to compile' part was the less hard part though ;)
Z_God	I think there is a problem with the dcopc if-defs
kb9vqf	what specifically?
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Z_God	when I tried to compile it here
Z_God	I got warning the variables were not used
Z_God	so it seems it skipped both the big & little ending parts and did not give a warning either
kb9vqf	well, please troubleshoot it if you can :)
kb9vqf	and send a new patch to the list
Z_God	ok, I will look into it, I will set up a vm now so I can compile the svn version directly
Z_God	it seems current svn does not detect my lucid install as a compatible prefix anymore
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Z_God	is there a ubuntu package for the right version of Qt3 to compile the version from SVN?
Z_God	kb9vqf: it seems the build scripts search for both gtk 1.2 and gtk 2.0 (same with glib)
Z_God	all the old gtk checks need to be removed
Z_God	otherwise I guess there will be problems when compiling on systems that have both versions installed
Z_God	I'm just upgrading completely to the nighly build now (in my VM), it seems the easiest to work with svn
Z_God	schreiberstein: you still have this issue with missing packages?
Z_God	it seems there are some mirrors that are incomplete, specifying another mirror manually in sources.list fixes the issue
schreiberstein	Z_God: Yeah.. some problems... error 404.. gtg
schreiberstein	see ya!
Z_God	tschüss!
schreiberstein	:-D
schreiberstein	Z_God: Bis dann!
Z_God	:)
schreiberstein	Wieder da! / Back
schreiberstein	http://pastebin.com/KCtnNaBn
Z_God	use this mirror in your sources.list: http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/
Z_God	it should solve at least the missing files issue
schreiberstein	thx man!
Z_God	kb9vqf: I've got a new patch for dcopc, at least it works here now (the current code indeed doesn't work), I'll mail it to the list
schreiberstein	WORKS!
Z_God	great!
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yomyom	Does anybody know where the actual SVG files of the Crystal icons of KDE 3.5 can be found at? http://kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=8341 (Crystal SVG)
yomyom	Is it available in the KDE 3.5 source code?
Z_God	yomyom: maybe they are in KDE 4?
yomyom	Z_God: There is the Oxygen icon set http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/kdesupport/oxygen-icons/
Z_God	yomyom: yeah strange, maybe you could e-mail the original author
yomyom	I really should
yomyom	Does Trinity has SVG icon support?
Z_God	I guess nott
Z_God	not*
yomyom	Will it have support for it?
yomyom	If it has not now...
Z_God	right now, I wouldn't expect it to be implemented soon
Z_God	is there any particular reason you'd like to see SVG support?
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yomyom	Z_God: SVG is scalable and easy to manipulate
yomyom	I love SVG
Z_God	I know that
Z_God	but what do you want to do in Trinity with that?
yomyom	It is the god of painting images :-)
yomyom	I want SVG because it is good and I want to use it with my Gtk applications too
Z_God	you think you could implement it yourself?
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calvin	kb9vqf: hey my kcm module for display is crashing
calvin	when I have an external VGA plugged in
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kb9vqf	calvin: Please get a backtrace for me
KingSphinx	Another question regarding nightlies: if I installed them on Ubuntu 11.04, would they carry over to 11.10 or would I need to wrestle with repos or whatever?
schreiberstein	I'd like to know that too!
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kb9vqf	we will not build binaries for Oneric (11.10) until it has hit the final release candidate
kb9vqf	otherwise it is a massive waste of our resources to constantly rebuild binaries for every single source package
kb9vqf	(for reference, on the build farm it takes one day solid to rebuild all of the binaries for one distribution version--Trinity includes a lot of software!)
kb9vqf	and even then it will be contingent on enough free time to set up those builds
Z_God	KingSphinx: everything should just continue to work
Z_God	Ubuntu is mostly backwards compatible with packages made for older versions
Z_God	sometimes things break a bit when dpkg can't figure things out, but some targetted commands can often fix that
Z_God	kb9vqf: I wasn't sure about it, I don't know if that #include <endian.h> line is still necessary
Z_God	I saw it's still there
kb9vqf	eh, I'll leave it for now :-P
kb9vqf	as a little reminder that the file is quite endian-sensitive
Z_God	hehehe ok
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Z_God	I wonder if it'd be hard to built everything on sparc
Z_God	build*
Z_God	in my memories, everything was hard to build on sparc....
Z_God	but that was solaris... maybe I could try linux some time
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calvin	kb9vqf: yyep will do
calvin	also "Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-nightly-builds/ubuntu/pool/main/q/qt-x11-free/qt3-dev-tools_3.3.8-d-0ubuntu0+sr71+pr178~natty_amd64.deb  404  Not Found [IP: 213.21.225.5 80]
calvin	Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-nightly-builds/ubuntu/pool/main/q/qt-x11-free/qt3-apps-dev_3.3.8-d-0ubuntu0+sr71+pr178~natty_amd64.deb  404  Not Found [IP: 213.21.225.5 80]
calvin	while trying to install dev packages
calvin	nevermind went through this time
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: poking around with C++, I still don't get this whole class thing lol
kb9vqf	well, there are some good guides online... ;-)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I like the "mess around and hope it compiles method"
MutantTurkey	playing around with kpackage
kb9vqf	which doesn't make for good program design....
MutantTurkey	I agree
MutantTurkey	mostly I am just playing around with the backend interface and seeing how it works
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: we don't have docs generate for various kde apis do we? is there a package
kb9vqf	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/docs/
MutantTurkey	savior
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: how does Kicon work? I mean is there is freedesktop standard for icon naming? :|
kb9vqf	dunno, sorry
MutantTurkey	okay thanks :)
MutantTurkey	docs = everything is okay
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay now to create a patch...
MutantTurkey	can svn do this for me?
kb9vqf	svn diff
MutantTurkey	also if I remove files will it do that too?
MutantTurkey	and add files, or move them?
kb9vqf	svn add <filename>
kb9vqf	svn del <filename>
kb9vqf	svn mv <filename> <dest>
kb9vqf	then svn diff
kb9vqf	:)
MutantTurkey	can svn del be recursive? :x
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay then svn diff | name.patch?
kb9vqf	svn diff &> patch.diff :)
MutantTurkey	should the patch be named?
MutantTurkey	whoa firefox 7 is really fast
MutantTurkey	(coming from a guy who hates ff)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: sent it off to the ML
MutantTurkey	take a look! :D
MutantTurkey	(since I need to sleep and would like some sort of positive feedback before I do)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: going to sleep. maybe you will accept it :) night
kb9vqf	ok, sorry
kb9vqf	not much time to work on Trinity ATM
kb9vqf	and if files are moved it will take longer to approve because distribution packaging has to be changed to match
kb9vqf	nothing personal, just the facts of software maintinence :)
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 530 filed by nick@leverton.org.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=530 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, ktalkd-trinity should Provide: talkd
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 531 filed by nick@leverton.org.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=531 needs packaging, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, RFP: ksensors
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kb9vqf	sorry, security trumps convenience
kb9vqf	always :)
kb9vqf	now what we could do is encourage the user to set echo 0 > /proc/sys/kernel/yama/ptrace_scope in the crash dialog
MutantTurkey	I am just having trouble imagining a "hacker" targeting linux over my secured ethernet connection behind my firewall
kb9vqf	well, that's why you can set the yama sysctl to 0 permanently
MutantTurkey	but wouldn't it not matter? I mean isn't that the purpose of privledges on linux? so that even if a user does something dumb or is comprimised it can't effect the system
kb9vqf	ptrace is special in that regard
kb9vqf	you can most certainly mess up the system that way
kb9vqf	anyway, we're off topic :)
kb9vqf	now can you generate the backtrace?
MutantTurkey	indeed
MutantTurkey	loading it up
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: so with ptrace I can examine and modify all memory?
kb9vqf	not sure
kb9vqf	it is possible
MutantTurkey	seems more like something that needs to be corrected in the kernel rather than disabling it
MutantTurkey	I see they are doing upstream stuff, that is good
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: want a bug or email?
kb9vqf	pastebin for now :)
MutantTurkey	http://pastebin.ca/2086550
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: note that I can actually use the monitor with krandr_tray
MutantTurkey	so It's not the hardware that can't do it
kb9vqf	that makes sense
kb9vqf	I know it's not the hardware ;-)
kb9vqf	actually, which graphics chip do you have?
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Try this patch: http://pastebin.com/QBCvMBdQ
kb9vqf	No guarantees as to whether the control center will work properly as I don't know why it can't find your primary monitor, but this should at least avoid the crash
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: You still around?
MutantTurkey	yes sorry
MutantTurkey	little sister is sick
MutantTurkey	I have the intel 3000 internal graphics card
MutantTurkey	it's coupled with the new sandy bridge processors
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: sorry I am a noobie at applying patches
kb9vqf	cd kdebase/
kb9vqf	patch -p0 < patch.diff
MutantTurkey	okay
kb9vqf	dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot
kb9vqf	wait a while
MutantTurkey	yep
kb9vqf	ok
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: ubuntu has a weird lib folder
kb9vqf	is it a problem?
MutantTurkey	make[2]: *** No rule to make target `/usr/lib/libasound.so', needed by `kcontrol/arts/kcm_arts.so'.  Stop.
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MutantTurkey	hey TokRa
TokRa	Evening, MutantTurkey :)
MutantTurkey	how are you?
schreiberstein	Hi MutantTurkey!
MutantTurkey	hey schreiberstein!
MutantTurkey	it's a party in here, haha
TokRa	MutantTurkey: Nice as always :)
MutantTurkey	Excellent to hear
TokRa	For the bad news: I have switched to KDE4 completely.
MutantTurkey	:|
schreiberstein	yep. he definitely is!
schreiberstein	TokRa: Why?
schreiberstein	i like kde4 too. but kde3 is better in my opinion
TokRa	schreiberstein: more modern, featureful
MutantTurkey	TokRa: I can't even get past installing it, it just keeps getting caught with nokomoko
MutantTurkey	"modern" means bloat?
schreiberstein	it work'S damn slow on my homeserver...
MutantTurkey	schreiberstein: I daresay, it plauges my server as well
schreiberstein	intel atom
MutantTurkey	schreiberstein: ... me too!
MutantTurkey	though I love my little n330 atom
schreiberstein	:-D
TokRa	kde3 has becme deprecated and poorly supported (I mean, a fistful of geeks is not enough)
kb9vqf	well, he must not need the features Trinity offers
kb9vqf	that's his choice
* TokRa always use the cheapest CPU possible :)
MutantTurkey	off with his head (joking)
MutantTurkey	TokRa: amd? :P
schreiberstein	of course...
MutantTurkey	or "take him away"
schreiberstein	he said intel atom
TokRa	model name      : AMD Sempron(tm) 140 Processor
MutantTurkey	or "the infidel..."
TokRa	MutantTurkey: You bet :)
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: you can just cd to obj-*/kcontrol/displayconfig and make && make install in there
MutantTurkey	schreiberstein: I love my atom
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	with cmake will it matter?
kb9vqf	it'll work
schreiberstein	MutantTurkey: Atom is fu****g slow. but it'S good enough for lamp, mpd, git, etc.
kb9vqf	Trinity is a DE for geeks, so...
MutantTurkey	schreiberstein: I use it as a desktop...
MutantTurkey	I think linux is for geeks in general
MutantTurkey	I don't like this "LETS GET EVERYONE INVOLVED EVEN THOUGH THEY JUST WANT TO USE MACS" fanboyism
schreiberstein	MutantTurkey: but it is really slow compared to an amd x2
kb9vqf	KDE4 is for the facebook crowd
kb9vqf	so not really
MutantTurkey	schreiberstein: yeah it's true
MutantTurkey	imagine compiling trinity on it? :|
MutantTurkey	that was why my progress was so terrible with archlinux
schreiberstein	MutantTurkey: i compiled kde 2 on it.. tool 1 or two hours
schreiberstein	*took
MutantTurkey	kde3.5 is a lot more
kb9vqf	yeah, you don't want to do that :eek:
MutantTurkey	at least it took like 45 minutes or just qt3
kb9vqf	So TokRa is your mirror going down
kb9vqf	?
TokRa	kb9vqf: absolutely not :) I'll keep supporting TDE as promised.
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	btw I think it's stuck
MutantTurkey	hip hip! hooray
kb9vqf	hasn't updated for almost a week
TokRa	The DE on my desktops has nothing to do with it :)
kb9vqf	ok
TokRa	o.O
kb9vqf	I look at it this way: TDE is more like Windows XP on a domain, and KDE4 is more like Windows 7 on its own
kb9vqf	Different use cases entirely
kb9vqf	If you use the wrong tool for the job you will just get frustrated
MutantTurkey	hence the reason that there are multiple  DE's
MutantTurkey	everyone has a different flow
kb9vqf	so don't encourage users that don't need TDE's features to use it :)
kb9vqf	it'll just result in bad press for us
MutantTurkey	(which is why unity/gnome3 stink because they force you onto a single developers flow)
kb9vqf	for us
kb9vqf	other people might like that flow
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: got it, was a header file
kb9vqf	ok
MutantTurkey	stinking ubuntu doesn't have headers
kb9vqf	heh
MutantTurkey	but problem solved
MutantTurkey	what was weird is there was a link error, not a include error?
kb9vqf	you should probably have done an apt-get build-dep kdebase-trinity first
MutantTurkey	build-dep?
kb9vqf	it pulls in all the build dependencies
MutantTurkey	oh cool
kb9vqf	I am thinking of adding more domain-type features to trinity in the future
MutantTurkey	domain type?
kb9vqf	I'm trying to make a first-class business-grade DE here :)
MutantTurkey	I am unfamiliar
MutantTurkey	oh so like for deployment on multi desktops
kb9vqf	LDAP centralized authentication
kb9vqf	yep
MutantTurkey	right
MutantTurkey	thats AWESOME
MutantTurkey	that is SO AWESOME
kb9vqf	I have it all working here but no GUI for it
kb9vqf	that's what I want to fix
MutantTurkey	these are features that people and businesses need
MutantTurkey	and things that keep linux from getting adopted...
kb9vqf	anyway, just pipe dreaming ATM, without much time to work on it...
kb9vqf	but yes
kb9vqf	and that means our goals are VERY different from KDE4
kb9vqf	hence my comments above :)
MutantTurkey	I had the lock screen freeze on me today. I logged into a tty and killed the process, then I switched back and it was like i logged in, right back to the normal screen
MutantTurkey	is that a security issue? (jw)
MutantTurkey	killing the screen lock process shouldn't return to regular desktop usage?
kb9vqf	I don't think it's an issue
kb9vqf	out of curiosity where did it freeze?
kb9vqf	on what screen?
kb9vqf	the only thing i can do to improve security is kill the entire desktop session if the lock dies
MutantTurkey	I just unslept and it wouldn't accept my password
kb9vqf	wouldn't accept it?
MutantTurkey	I would type in, hit enter , ad it would just clear the text
MutantTurkey	and go right back to saying
MutantTurkey	press ctrl alt delete
kb9vqf	hmmmm
kb9vqf	only on resume after sleep?
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	only happened once so far
kb9vqf	well, that's not good at all
kb9vqf	if it happens again let me know
MutantTurkey	ok
kb9vqf	and if it does happen again, please keep logging in over and over for at least 10 times
kb9vqf	see if it finally unwedges or not
kb9vqf	what may be happening is a stack of login screens
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	like many are spawning
MutantTurkey	?
kb9vqf	right
MutantTurkey	I only killed a single process
MutantTurkey	but possibly
kb9vqf	well, that process may have multiple windows
MutantTurkey	right
kb9vqf	anyway, you don't need to recompile all of kdebase ;-)
kb9vqf	just cd to that obj-* directory
MutantTurkey	yep
MutantTurkey	still crashed
kb9vqf	same crash?
MutantTurkey	I just copied the display library over to /opt/lib/trinity/lib
MutantTurkey	is that ok?
kb9vqf	run make install
MutantTurkey	the freshly build one
kb9vqf	from within the obj-*/kcontrol/displayconfig directory
kb9vqf	that way you will be sure to have it installed correctly
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Is the backtrace identical to before?
MutantTurkey	looks to be
MutantTurkey	let me verify
MutantTurkey	Different
MutantTurkey	reuploading
kb9vqf	for some reason it can't find your primary monitor, and I wonder why that is
kb9vqf	It concerns me
MutantTurkey	Oh holy crap
MutantTurkey	i think this might be because krandr is running
MutantTurkey	let me try from scratch
kb9vqf	that shouldn't make any difference
MutantTurkey	i had one screen disabled
kb9vqf	if there's a bug with that I need to know!
MutantTurkey	its been working perfectly so far
MutantTurkey	krandr that is
kb9vqf	well, yes
kb9vqf	because it does not use the advanced features in libkrandr
kb9vqf	e.g. it doesn't let you set a primary monitor, etc.
MutantTurkey	with it unplugged = no crash (still a bit slow though)
MutantTurkey	plugged = crash
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	new pastebin please?
MutantTurkey	http://pastebin.ca/2086564
MutantTurkey	there ya go
MutantTurkey	gotta help with groceries really quickly
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Try this: http://pastebin.com/stc1cSmm
kb9vqf	Replace your entire displayconfig.cpp file in kcontrol/displayconfig with that
kb9vqf	then make/make install
MutantTurkey	displayconfigbase.cpp?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: it installs to /usr/local/lib/trinity is that okay?
kb9vqf	no
kb9vqf	copy it to the correct location
kb9vqf	and no, kdebase/kcontrol/displayconfig/displayconfig.cpp
kb9vqf	NOT displayconfigbase.cpp
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kb9vqf	you need to look outside the obj-* directory
MutantTurkey	ahhh
MutantTurkey	wait the obj-* diirectoy
MutantTurkey	?
MutantTurkey	ohh
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay still crashing
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Grrr
MutantTurkey	:|
MutantTurkey	*runs away*
kb9vqf	can you get line numbers this time?
MutantTurkey	do you want any other info?
kb9vqf	the last backtrace was usesless
MutantTurkey	yes sure
MutantTurkey	wait howso?
kb9vqf	the last backtrace you pastebinned had no line numbers in it :-P
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf:http://pastebin.ca/2086565
MutantTurkey	weird
kb9vqf	same thing
kb9vqf	oh well
kb9vqf	I guess I'll have to try to reproduce it here
MutantTurkey	wait what?
MutantTurkey	no line numbers?
kb9vqf	#7  0x00007fddd08dbedb in KDisplayConfig::moveMonitor(DraggableMonitor*, int, int) () from /opt/trinity/lib/trinity/kcm_displayconfig.so
kb9vqf	instead of
kb9vqf	#7  0x00007fc79256aeaf in KDisplayConfig::moveMonitor (this=0x1fc8030, monitor=0x2030640, realx=0, realy=0) at /build/buildd/kdebase-trinity-3.5.13/kcontrol/displayconfig/displayconfig.cpp:641
MutantTurkey	you don't mean the #7?
kb9vqf	no
MutantTurkey	oh
MutantTurkey	sorry :[
MutantTurkey	do you want any dmesg output or anything related to that?
MutantTurkey	I don't know if my setup is automagically different
kb9vqf	all you did was plug in a new monitor, right?
kb9vqf	and it just died?
MutantTurkey	no
MutantTurkey	When I have it plugged in first
MutantTurkey	then go to system->display...
kb9vqf	right, and then it dies
MutantTurkey	aye
kb9vqf	let me see if I can replicate that
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	Also if I got to system->dispaly first then plugin, then hit "rescan" it crashes
kb9vqf	that makes sense
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: dinnner bbs
kb9vqf	you're in luck--I can replicate the problem on my Intel chip
kb9vqf	now to see about fixing it... :)
MutantTurkey	excellent
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MobileTurkey	yeek back to windows
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MobileTurkey1	kb9vqf: any luck?
kb9vqf	still working on it
kb9vqf	the source code for this feature is massive
kb9vqf	at least 4k lines of code
MobileTurkey1	wow
MobileTurkey1	you rock!
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* KingSphinx is debating whether to just install nightlies now, or wait until the 11.10 update...
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Z_God	kb9vqf: you mean you want to create a UI to configure PAM with LDAP?
Z_God	at work I was also using trinity and LDAP authentication
Z_God	there is already a UI for configuring LDAP when you install the LDAP client support on Ubuntu
Z_God	I think it would be good if there would be a Trinity interface to make dpkg-reconfigure accessible easily and then if any of those interfaces suck, fixes could be made upstream to improve that UI for all users
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Mias	hello
Mias	how to put compiz into kdm?
kb9vqf	you can't
kb9vqf	compiz does not have the ability to switch the running user
kb9vqf	i.e. if it is launched as root it will run as root for the remainder of the Xorg session (== big security problem)
Mias	ohnoez
Mias	fusion-icon wont work here
kb9vqf	you can of course launch compiz in your user session
kb9vqf	what is wrong with fusion-icon
kb9vqf	?
Mias	no it says xgl not there
Mias	but it runs using xinit
Mias	kb9vqf: it cant launch it
kb9vqf	huh
kb9vqf	is this with the nightly builds?
kb9vqf	or 3.5.12?
Mias	how to see version?
Mias	should be actual from the repo
Mias	on lucid
kb9vqf	Go to Konqueror, then Help->About Trinity
kb9vqf	If your version is even older then it might read Help->About KDE
kb9vqf	You will see the version number on the top of that dialog boc
kb9vqf	*box
kb9vqf	post it here
Mias	3.5.11
kb9vqf	you are running an outdated and unsupported version of Trinity
kb9vqf	I am not surprised fusion-icon does not work
kb9vqf	3.5.11 has more in common with KDE 3.5.10 than the current version of Trinity
kb9vqf	perhaps searching for forum posts about fusion-icon not working with KDE 3.5.10 would be more helpful?
kb9vqf	otherwise I strongly recommend to upgrade to at least KDE 3.5.12, or the nightly builds
kb9vqf	3.5.13 will be available by the end of the year if all goes well, so if you can wait a bit longer that would be your best bet
Mias	uhm..
Mias	i installed it 2 weeks ago following the instructions on trinity-desktop.org
kb9vqf	onto lucid
kb9vqf	which is marked as "OldStable"
kb9vqf	right on the website :)
Mias	yo.. & the same on my netbook 1 year ago and all ok
kb9vqf	we did not build 3.5.12 for Lucid due to a lack of resources
kb9vqf	we aren't Canonical ;-)
kb9vqf	3.5.13 will be built for Lucid, Maverick, Natty, (probably Oneric), and Debian Squeeze
Mias	so I cant have 3.5.12?
kb9vqf	not on Lucid
kb9vqf	but you can wait a bit for 3.5.13
Mias	what's it with that xgl error?
kb9vqf	I have no idea at this point
kb9vqf	it could be any number of things
kb9vqf	including outdated software
kb9vqf	Compiz has always been a bit finicky in my experience
kb9vqf	(even outside of KDE)
kb9vqf	which graphics chip are you using?
Mias	sure it is
kb9vqf	you could write to our trinity-users mailing list with your problem
kb9vqf	there may be others there who have run into it
Mias	nvidia Corporation G98 [GeForce 8400 GS] on pc, intel on netbook
kb9vqf	ah, ok
kb9vqf	well, there is no reason that I can think of that that hardware should not work
kb9vqf	personally I have not used Lucid in some time, so I couldn't tell you if it's an Xorg issue or a problem in fusion-icon, or even in Compiz itself
kb9vqf	try the mailing list, we do have other Lucid users there that are not on IRC :)
kb9vqf	if there is a bug I'd like to see it fixed for 3.5.13
Mias	hmm
kb9vqf	also, running fusion-icon from the terminal and posting the entire output would be helpful
kb9vqf	send that in to the mailing list
Mias	i acccc. started kde4 with compiz running
Mias	ha good idea
Mias	maybe this worx with kde3 also
Mias	but the kicker menu will be empty :)
Mias	+ kcontrol
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: hey what's up?
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Upgrade your kdelibs/kdebase and try the monitor utility again ;-)
MutantTurkey	ok
kb9vqf	also if you don't mind try installing fusion-icon-trinity and see if you can get it to start Compiz or not
MutantTurkey	Upgrading already
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MutantTurkey	I don't really know how compiz works
MutantTurkey	:|
kb9vqf	you *should* be able to install fusion-icon-trinity
kb9vqf	when you do, there *should* be an icon in your system tray
kb9vqf	(if not launch it manually from kicker)
kb9vqf	and then you *should* be able to tell it to launch Compiz
kb9vqf	(by clicking on the new system tray icon)
kb9vqf	I haven't tested this in quite a while, but we had someone here (Mias) who may have found a problem with it
kb9vqf	and I'd like to resolve it if the problem is still in SVN
MutantTurkey	okay upgraded
MutantTurkey	no crash!
MutantTurkey	:D
MutantTurkey	awesome it works!
MutantTurkey	now I can stick konversation in it's own display ;0
MutantTurkey	:)
kb9vqf	nice little tool, no? :)
MutantTurkey	dang. it crashed
kb9vqf	doing what?
MutantTurkey	after I had tested and everything set up perfectly.
MutantTurkey	I hit "apply"
kb9vqf	hmmm
MutantTurkey	want the traceback? (display is still configured properly
kb9vqf	backtrace would be helpful
kb9vqf	what does "properly" mean?
MutantTurkey	oh yeah.... gotta do that proc thing again
kb9vqf	it worked but then crashed?
MutantTurkey	it's working still
MutantTurkey	even though it crashed
kb9vqf	huh
MutantTurkey	because when I tested it, i just said "keep these settings"
MutantTurkey	so it had already applied them I suppose
kb9vqf	I suppose it might be related to some new code I just added :-P
kb9vqf	ironically it's debug code
kb9vqf	let's see the backtrace then I can comment further :)
MutantTurkey	how do I permenantly apply that /proc/ setting?
kb9vqf	something in sysctl.conf I imagine
kb9vqf	poke me when you have a backtrace
MutantTurkey	OK
MutantTurkey	also, can konsole open a new window in the same folder as the previous?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: and sorry, I don't remember how to reenable the memory access for the kernel (it's not in my bash history either?)
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MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: and sorry, I don't remember how to reenable the memory access for the kernel (it's not in my bash history either?)
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kb9vqf-secondary	MobileTurkey: http://askubuntu.com/questions/41629/after-upgrade-gdb-wont-attach-to-process/41656#41656
kb9vqf-secondary	Ran into an OOM condition on my workstation, sorry
MobileTurkey	okay
MobileTurkey	thanks
kb9vqf-secondary	np
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Mias	kb9vqf: wohoo its w0rking now
Mias	wiith ~icon
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: having trouble getting the backtrace
kb9vqf	~icon?
Mias	fusion
kb9vqf	what did you do differently?
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: What's wrong?
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: Ok now even test settings renders a crash
MobileTurkey	and It keeps saying "this backtrace is of no use..."
Mias	kb9vqf: unclear, hacked all day diff. things
kb9vqf	did you echo 1 into the proc yama thing?
MobileTurkey	echo a 0 you mean
kb9vqf	Mias: Well, glad you got it working :)
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: yes
MobileTurkey	I did
MobileTurkey	and it is 0 i just cat'd it out
Mias	hmm switched dbus off, etc pp
Mias	:)
kb9vqf	Mias: fusion-icon may have had a legitimate complaint about something in your setup that was resolved somehow in your troubleshooting
kb9vqf	that's what I always remember about Compiz--it's a pain to setup the first time
Mias	yea, orc cpz itself
Mias	^or
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: OK, try launching the control center module via kdesudo
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: Once it's running attach to the process with gdb
kb9vqf	from another terminal
kb9vqf	you will probaby have to be root to do that
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: Did it work?
MobileTurkey	No :/
kb9vqf	you couldn't attach with gdb?
MobileTurkey	I mean I was just relying on the handy gui to do it
kb9vqf	no, you can't here for some reason
MobileTurkey	okay let medo it manually
kb9vqf	start it, find displayconfig in 'ps aux', attach with GDB, THEN try to make it crash :)
MobileTurkey	there are two processes. kcmshell displayconfig and kcmswhell.real
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: Does on have bin/sh somewhere in it?
kb9vqf	*one
kb9vqf	if so, attach to the other
MobileTurkey	ok
MobileTurkey	I went with the one that has a ton more memory...
MobileTurkey	assuming that is the real one, other is a wrapper i think
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: Any luck?
kb9vqf	I'm trying to cram you into a small timeslot before the build computer is used for other tasks again
MobileTurkey	sorry
MobileTurkey	let me hurry
kb9vqf	np
MobileTurkey	okay its ready
MobileTurkey	now I just crash it?
kb9vqf	yes
MobileTurkey	grr
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	how do you know xrandr itself isn't crashing?
MobileTurkey	every time i attach and go back to it, the display kcm is blank
kb9vqf	oh
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: because krandrtray can do it
kb9vqf	you did type 'c' for continue, right?
MobileTurkey	eh
kb9vqf	in gdb
MobileTurkey	good call
MobileTurkey	now crashing it
MobileTurkey	okay now how do I output it all
kb9vqf	bt
kb9vqf	for "backtrace"
MobileTurkey	at /build/buildd/kdelibs-..../krandr/libkranr.cc:606
MobileTurkey	"bKRandrSimpleAPI::applySystemwideDisplayConfiguration (this=0x23b8980, screenInfoArray=..., test=false) at /build/buildd/kdelibs-trinity-3.5.13/krandr/libkrandr.cc:606"
MobileTurkey	is that relevant?
kb9vqf	hang on
kb9vqf	can you pastebin the whole thing?
MobileTurkey	yep
MobileTurkey	http://pastebin.ca/2086988
kb9vqf	and this crash occurs right when you hit apply, correct?
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: and this crash occurs right when you hit apply, correct?
MobileTurkey	yes
kb9vqf	well, I'll say right now the crash is in an odd spot
MobileTurkey	really?
kb9vqf	I can throw in a fix to prevent the crash but I don't know how much good it will do
MobileTurkey	what is the reason it crashes?
kb9vqf	the number of monitors changes between scanning and application of the settings
kb9vqf	so it is possible that there is an Xorg bug underlying this that I will need to work around
kb9vqf	granted displayconfig should just malfunction, not crash, but still....
kb9vqf	it concerns me a bit
MobileTurkey	sigh
kb9vqf	I'll push the fixes up to SVN, which should stabilize displayconfig
kb9vqf	but if it doesn't work then I need to know :)
MobileTurkey	okay
MobileTurkey	let me know I can rebuild
MobileTurkey	once you push
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Patch 1 is in SVN revision 1257359.
kb9vqf	but I would wait for the binary packages if I were you
MobileTurkey	why is that?
kb9vqf	better debugging
MobileTurkey	ok good thinking
kb9vqf	when you install it yourself we don't get line numbers
kb9vqf	and I won't know if it's a compilation issue on your system causing the crash, etc, etc.
MobileTurkey	how long till rebuild?
kb9vqf	you'll have the fixed versions by tomorrow morning
MobileTurkey	okay so i'll get the changes at lunch and see if its fixed
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	thanks for working with me on this
MobileTurkey	yep
kb9vqf	so I take it you were able to at least partially enable your extra monitor before it crashed?
MobileTurkey	I am still on it...
MobileTurkey	which is weird. it is completely working the first time
MobileTurkey	then when I tried to reproduce, it keeps crashing
MobileTurkey	both monitors are working rigt now though
kb9vqf	huh
kb9vqf	oh well
kb9vqf	we'll see where this is tomorrow
MobileTurkey	yep
kb9vqf	if it's still crashing at line 606 right now I wouldn't bother keeping trying
kb9vqf	for some reason Xorg is reporting different numbers of monitors or something
kb9vqf	:S
MobileTurkey	is it because I hit "make this my primary monitor?"
kb9vqf	nope
kb9vqf	that doesn't make any difference
kb9vqf	not in that block of code anyway
kb9vqf	technically it seems that Xorg is reporting too many monitors and therefore the tool is trying to access monitor configuration data that does not exists
kb9vqf	hence the crash
kb9vqf	the "fix" not only checks for valid data, but also uses the initially reported number of monitors from the scan or rescan
kb9vqf	so we'll see what happens :)
MobileTurkey	okay
kb9vqf	I can't tet very thoroughly here because I can't afford the power to start up my fancy nVidia machine, and my laptop's Intel chip only lets me have a virtual screen up to 1600x1600 pixels
kb9vqf	which is not enough to activate an external monitor
kb9vqf	we're in another stupid heat wave here
MobileTurkey	yeesh
MobileTurkey	we are just hitting cold in philly
MobileTurkey	I've come down with a nasty cold incidentally
kb9vqf	well, get well soon, there are lots of bugs to fix!
kb9vqf	:))
MobileTurkey	being sick = more time to do trinity
kb9vqf	BTW I am going to set a tentative release date of November 1st
MobileTurkey	excuse that I am sick is working well
MobileTurkey	sweet.
kb9vqf	at this point we have to release bugs and all
kb9vqf	because of Oneric
MobileTurkey	Lets use that deadline to help us get motivated
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	broadcast it far and wide
MobileTurkey	rally the troops
kb9vqf	also we are therefore in a feature freeze
MobileTurkey	that means you Xu_R!
kb9vqf	if it's large then it has to wait for 3.5.14
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: makes sense
kb9vqf	and no we won't be going to 3.6 afterwards because the bugs weren't fixed in a timely fashion :-P
kb9vqf	such is life...
MobileTurkey	yep
MobileTurkey	such is life
kb9vqf	at this point we need to get rid of as many crashing bugs as possible, including the ones in displayconfig
kb9vqf	because that will be one of our front-page new features
MobileTurkey	It's a good setup
MobileTurkey	another question though, do we need some sort of panel integration? like krandr
kb9vqf	?
MobileTurkey	you know krandrtray is a nice panel applet
MobileTurkey	do we need a panel applet for the displayconfig?
kb9vqf	Yes it is, but the module in kcontrol uses the same backend
MobileTurkey	oh okay
kb9vqf	there is really just too much info for a tray app
MobileTurkey	so changes with go to both?
kb9vqf	you an still use krandrtray
kb9vqf	yes
MobileTurkey	good
kb9vqf	krandrtray is not persistent
kb9vqf	never has been
MobileTurkey	yeah
kb9vqf	you can make a change there and on reboot it will reset
kb9vqf	displayconfig is permanent
kb9vqf	as soon as kdm loads the settings are applied
kb9vqf	actually a bit before :)
kb9vqf	so that the login screen shows up on your primary monitor
MobileTurkey	excellent
MobileTurkey	do we need to audit all the bugs?
kb9vqf	you'll have to test all this out for me again once it stops crashing :)
kb9vqf	audit?
MobileTurkey	as in, go through them and make sure they are still valid, or are not, and such
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	in fact I think you are in the best position to do that
Xu_R	heard. will try to get as much as possible
kb9vqf	as you are running the latest binary packages
MobileTurkey	right on
MobileTurkey	I'll be doing that then
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MobileTurkey	Xu_R: me too
kb9vqf	my systems are contaminated with direct source installations
MobileTurkey	I am going to bed at 9
MobileTurkey	seems a bit ridiculous :P
Xu_R|StillTired	i envy you for that.
Xu_R|StillTired	xD
MobileTurkey	whats up with the konqueror certs? kb9vqf
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	the failure to accept things?
MobileTurkey	yes
kb9vqf	dunno
kb9vqf	does it still do that for you?
MobileTurkey	yeah
kb9vqf	if so the certificate store needs to be looked at
MobileTurkey	makes using konqueror a pain in the ass
kb9vqf	we probably have an invalid master cert somewhere in the tree
kb9vqf	IIRC that is in kdelibs
MobileTurkey	okay
kb9vqf	if you want to try to hunt it down
kb9vqf	:)
MobileTurkey	I don't understand much about certs
MobileTurkey	always room to learn
kb9vqf	well, I can try to dig up the directory
kb9vqf	just not sure I'll have time to work on it
MobileTurkey	i'll poke around no worries
MobileTurkey	haha I just ran across an IDEAS file, circa 1999
MobileTurkey	"I am trying to create a picture of how Konqueror should look like in kde 2.0"
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	if you run across suff like that add it to a list
MobileTurkey	so khtml is seperate from konqueror
MobileTurkey	good
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	KHTML is just a plugin
MobileTurkey	that solves alot already
MobileTurkey	a kpart?
kb9vqf	yep
MobileTurkey	I love trinity, so modular
kb9vqf	that's why Z_God got the mozilla kpart partially functional
MobileTurkey	so we could replace khtml with mozilla?
kb9vqf	if he were to fix it the rest of the way mozilla would become an alternative to KHTML
kb9vqf	yes
MobileTurkey	that would make konqueror viable as a browser
kb9vqf	yep
MobileTurkey	go Z_god go!
kb9vqf	and with the code as a base I wonder if chrome could be used
* kb9vqf dreams
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: nope
MobileTurkey	they diverged from webkit and basically are being sucmbags
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	oh
MobileTurkey	we can still use webkit though
kb9vqf	well, that's a shame
MobileTurkey	webkit rocks!
MobileTurkey	webkit > chrome imho
MobileTurkey	webkit is really easy to work with as well.
kb9vqf	webkit requires that we be moved off the Qt namespace, etc.
kb9vqf	so 3.5.14 at the earliest
MobileTurkey	TQtwebkit?
kb9vqf	no, just that we build qt as tqt instead of qt :)
kb9vqf	I know that doesn't make much sense
kb9vqf	but I know what has to be done
MobileTurkey	okay :D
kb9vqf	and it will happen right after 3.5.13
kb9vqf	the problem is that it will break kdebindings rather badly
kb9vqf	until I attack it with sed
MobileTurkey	I am fuzzy about kdebindings
kb9vqf	it's horrid
MobileTurkey	what does it do?
kb9vqf	it provides Trinity services to python, ruby, and java apps
MobileTurkey	oh
MobileTurkey	okay
kb9vqf	basically extends the TDE and Qt api to such programs
kb9vqf	but the way it was done makes me shudder :
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	it scans the Qt include header *documentation* and tries to build *some* (not all) source files from that :eek:
MobileTurkey	well always room for improvement
kb9vqf	except I'm a C++/C/asm kind of guy
kb9vqf	I don't really know Python, Ruby, or Java
kb9vqf	and don't really want to :-P
MobileTurkey	I am also a C guy
MobileTurkey	I understand your pain
kb9vqf	so hopefully sed can attack it and make it work :-)
kb9vqf	this is also going to be a complete breakage of the Qt ABI
MobileTurkey	wait what is? :|
MobileTurkey	*gets rather confused sometimes
kb9vqf	after 3.5.13, the conversion of Qt3 to get off the Qt4 namespace
kb9vqf	it has to be if you think about it
kb9vqf	all the classes will be really, truly renamed to TQ*
MobileTurkey	oh yes
MobileTurkey	I recall now, just the wording confused me
MobileTurkey	but that won't effect users will it?
kb9vqf	but the way it was done allowed us to get Trinity converted to TQ*, then release, then convert Qt itself :)
kb9vqf	and no it should't
MobileTurkey	then convert Qt itself :) < what do you mean by Qt there?
kb9vqf	Qt3
MobileTurkey	okay cool
kb9vqf	Qt3 becomes TQt3 for real
kb9vqf	no interface needed any more
MobileTurkey	oh wow
MobileTurkey	awesome
kb9vqf	(though it will stick around for legacy reasons I think)
kb9vqf	this wasn't possible until we absorbed Qt3
MobileTurkey	right
kb9vqf	and we can actually maintain both versions
kb9vqf	as I have an auto-converter :)
kb9vqf	anyway, I have some work to do
kb9vqf	if you have questions about the certs let me know
kb9vqf	they are "real" certificate files in a directory in kdelibs or kdebase somewhere
kb9vqf	and I bet one or more is invalid
MobileTurkey	why does it matter if these certs are invalid?
kb9vqf	you will get constant prompting about invalid certs
MobileTurkey	okay
MobileTurkey	can I manually check them?
kb9vqf	not sure
kb9vqf	personally I would trace the commit
kb9vqf	figure out what went wrong
MobileTurkey	where do they come from?
* MobileTurkey doesn't understand this really
kb9vqf	This looks promising: http://www.trinitydesktop.org/patches/r1123812.diff
kb9vqf	they are in kdelibs/kio/kssl/kssl
kb9vqf	there is some documentation there
MobileTurkey	okay thanks :D
kb9vqf	specifically I suspect the caroot is invalid
kb9vqf	if the root certificate is invalid then no certificates can ever be valid :)
kb9vqf	*validated
MobileTurkey	okay
MobileTurkey	these certs come from companies?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	they are the root certificates
MobileTurkey	okay
kb9vqf	widely available
MobileTurkey	then everyone checks agianst it?
kb9vqf	yes
MobileTurkey	cool so all we have to do is get thier current certs?
kb9vqf	and it seems they were corrupted by commits like this http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/kdelibs/kio/kssl/kssl/caroot/ca-bundle.crt?view=log
kb9vqf	well, not so fast
kb9vqf	there was something in the readme about something that has to be done to them
kb9vqf	but you get the general idea
MobileTurkey	okay
MobileTurkey	I will look into it now
kb9vqf	when you get it fixed get a patch and I'll apply it
kb9vqf	*generate a patch
kb9vqf	Honestly I'd revert the certificate files themeselves (not the C++ sources or headers) to revision 1123812 and see if that alone fixes the problem
MobileTurkey	I am getting excited. no time for bed
kb9vqf	I suspect the reversion alone will fix it
MobileTurkey	good
MobileTurkey	so I can  just revert the files by getting the old files and replacing the new ones?
kb9vqf	you can check out the old source tree with svn co svn://svn.kde.org/home/kde/branches/trinity/kdelibs/kio/kssl --revision 1123812
kb9vqf	yes
MobileTurkey	or is there a tech-savvy wa to do it
kb9vqf	nope, that's how
MobileTurkey	okay
kb9vqf	you check out the old tree and copy the files to the new one
kb9vqf	copy ONLY the certificate files though!
kb9vqf	leave the C/C++ sources alone
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	we don't want to revert fixes to the source when trying to repair the certs ;-)
MobileTurkey	Understood
MobileTurkey	Affirmative
MobileTurkey	Rodger That.
kb9vqf	10/4
kb9vqf	:))
MobileTurkey	hehe
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: okay I am going to rebuild. will I need to do a make install or such?
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: I would recommend dpkg-buildpackage
kb9vqf	just rebuild all of kdelibs
kb9vqf	then install the new packages
kb9vqf	reason being I don't remember if Debian massages the certs at all
MobileTurkey	does dpkg-buildpackage work if i just do it in kdelibs/?
kb9vqf	no
MobileTurkey	it just works? or do I need to fudge with it
kb9vqf	you need to apt-get source kdelibs into a new directory
kb9vqf	then copy the svn files over the existing ones in that new directory
kb9vqf	technically apt-get source creates a new subfolder and that is what you need to copy over the contents of
MobileTurkey	;x
kb9vqf	it'll be pretty obvious once you get the source via apt-get :)
MobileTurkey	okay...
MobileTurkey	I am super unfamiliar with the whole apt-hell system
kb9vqf	and I'm an expert :)
MobileTurkey	good thing too
kb9vqf	had tobe
MobileTurkey	or else I'd be a duck in water, or whatever that saying is
kb9vqf	did your apt-get source work?
MobileTurkey	not sure how to do it :|
kb9vqf	make a new directory
kb9vqf	cd to that directory in a terminal
kb9vqf	apt-get source kdelibs-trinity
kb9vqf	rm *
kb9vqf	cd kdelibs*
kb9vqf	rsync -a --exclude=.svn/ <your_new_svn_tree>/* .
kb9vqf	dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot
kb9vqf	cd ..
kb9vqf	dpkg -i *.deb
kb9vqf	that should be it :)
MobileTurkey	so simple!
kb9vqf	it is really
kb9vqf	I love the .deb system
kb9vqf	BTW <your_new_svn_tree> would be /blah/foo/kdelibs
kb9vqf	just to make sure you pull the correct set of files: )
MobileTurkey	ok
MobileTurkey	this i5 really does help...
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: can I enable it to use multiple  cores?
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: okay i updated it with my build
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calvin_	kb9vqf: we got problems
calvin_	kdm is freezing up now
calvin_	kb9vqf: we got problems
calvin_	kdm is freezing up now
calvin_	be it the display config issue ( i think) or the kdelibs i just installed
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: removed the conf in /etc/ so thats broken for now, but kdm is launching ok, now to the certs
kb9vqf	yep, makes sense
MutantTurkey	the old certs aren't good anymore (the ones I copied over)
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	expired?
MutantTurkey	The server certificate failed authenticity test
MutantTurkey	Certificate signing authority root files could not be found so certificate is not verifed
MutantTurkey	The certificate has not been issued for this host
MutantTurkey	valid from ... 2009 -..... 2012
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: looks like I will need to read how to do it and generate new erts
kb9vqf	yeah, we can't ship certs expiring in 2012 :-P
kb9vqf	I did it once before and it isn't too bad
kb9vqf	just follow the instructions :)
MutantTurkey	no the ones from facebook are at 2012 expired.
MutantTurkey	but the ones I am using are from 2005
MutantTurkey	so...
MutantTurkey	obviously even worse
kb9vqf	oh yeah :-P
MutantTurkey	I'll just generate new ones
MutantTurkey	kde has an awesome crypto config
kb9vqf	you can't generate new ones from scratch
kb9vqf	hehe
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: the header files
kb9vqf	oh, ok
MutantTurkey	not the actual certs
kb9vqf	it's been a while since I did this :)
MutantTurkey	somehow they get bundled?
MutantTurkey	I am not sure how it works
kb9vqf	also I imagine the root cert needs to be updated
MutantTurkey	yes
kb9vqf	*root certs
MutantTurkey	maybe all
MutantTurkey	I'll do it tomorrow
MutantTurkey	I need to sleep this cold off
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	I'll also take a look tonight
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: getting really excited for this release though
kb9vqf	:)
MutantTurkey	could just be enough to get the ball rolling with more help
kb9vqf	if it's good and reasonably bug-free, then maybe
MutantTurkey	i mean I don't think people care to much about bug free.... look at kde4.0 hahahaa
MutantTurkey	but seriously, we can use the release to generate press, get users, etc
kb9vqf	our audience is somewhat different
kb9vqf	our users look for bugs
kb9vqf	and are very unhappy if they find them :)
kb9vqf	BTW I think all the .pem files in the kssl directory need to be updated with the latest available from the various certificate authorities
kb9vqf	that will take a bit of searching online
kb9vqf	or maybe from kde4's cert store (hint hint nudge wink)
MutantTurkey	hehe
MutantTurkey	if they are all published online I will be able to find them
MutantTurkey	more worried about getting it working than finding it
MutantTurkey	anyway gotta sleep
kb9vqf	I bet a simple copy+paste of the .pem files from KDE4 trunk (in GIT?) might work
kb9vqf	ok
MutantTurkey	okay i will look
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: tomorrow we will also hopefully work out the bugs with displayconfig
MutantTurkey	cya!
kb9vqf	gn :)
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: looks like there is a program that you are required to compile to generate the cert
MutantTurkey	a small program
MutantTurkey	that is in kssl/kssl/
MutantTurkey	cert_extract.c
MutantTurkey	gotta build it, I need libdb-dev and of course it's not downloading...crappy school proxy
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: also pulling the new libs
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Xu_R|StillTired	well, this is good. I managed to get some work done on tdebase today~~
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MutantTurkey	o/
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: yeah I really need to figure out a VPN option for myself or something, because even ubuntu's repositories are getting blocked out through this  connection
kb9vqf	oh fun
kb9vqf	how long till you are home?
MutantTurkey	I think about an hour and a half
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 532 filed by patrick@serru.net.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=532 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, konqueror looping indefinitely
MutantTurkey	i've modified my apt/sources list so I am gettingthe download now
kb9vqf	ok
MutantTurkey	of course along with 5000 ubuntu other updates... makes for a long wait
MutantTurkey	did you see my message from about the cert_extract program?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay It's installing now
kb9vqf	yep
MutantTurkey	thinking about going to the occupy philly protest tomorrow. my friend works at the paper and I have the hook up to get some cash if I get good footage and pictures
MutantTurkey	so might be busy for the next few weeks
kb9vqf	well, in that case test the display config and leave the certs to me
kb9vqf	*display
kb9vqf	looks like we'll be releasing with bugs :(
MutantTurkey	I am sure it will smooth over
MutantTurkey	did you look at the certs at all
MutantTurkey	?
kb9vqf	nop
MutantTurkey	okay
kb9vqf	I was leaving that to you
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	keep leaving it to me
kb9vqf	well, we need that in SVN soon :)
MutantTurkey	for a few hours
kb9vqf	that blocks release
kb9vqf	ok
MutantTurkey	nov 1st?
kb9vqf	that's what we're aiming for
kb9vqf	note that the code needs to stop changing before that ;-)
kb9vqf	there will probably be a 2 week pre-release code freeze
kb9vqf	where only critical and simply-patched bugs are fixed
kb9vqf	we need that to allow the packaging systems to run
kb9vqf	as well as create live cds, etc.
MutantTurkey	understand
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	okay so the cert_extract.c depends on libdb1 which is defunct. compat libraries exist but the -dev headers are gone
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	libdb should be backwards compatible
kb9vqf	so libdb8 (or whatever is on Ubuntu) should work
MutantTurkey	I think that not
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MutantTurkey	because there is regular libdb and libdb1
MutantTurkey	I have the regular libdb headers installed.
MutantTurkey	ah. seperate packages for C and C++ headers...
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: not compatible, I changed the <db1/db.h> to regular <db.h> and it's no good
kb9vqf	huh
kb9vqf	look at the KDE4 version :)
kb9vqf	if it's a regular C file then it doesn't use Qt
MutantTurkey	no it does not
kb9vqf	which means we can use the KDE4 variant
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: they also still use the old version.
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	copy over their certs and forget about it :)
kb9vqf	and the generated headers
kb9vqf	(as long as they do not use Qt you should be fine)
MutantTurkey	okay I'll take you word for it.
MutantTurkey	I am not sure I am up to the tast
MutantTurkey	task
MutantTurkey	you may want to look at it
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Raevyn	Hello :) So question for anyone really. I am using Firefox and find that if I use the QT theme buttons sometimes disappear until I hover over, then the reappear. The same thing happens with Openoffice. The workaround I discovered is to run them in gtk theme.. but now the desktop looks odd. Is there any fix for this?
MutantTurkey	Raevyn: hey :)
MutantTurkey	I have also just started seeing this problem with firefox, does it also occur in your tab field? mine happens in the tab area
Raevyn	Yea in the tabs :)
Raevyn	Though sometimes also in the addon bar below
MutantTurkey	would you mind filing a bug report?
MutantTurkey	http://bugs.trinitydesktop.org
Raevyn	sure!
MutantTurkey	It's not to hard, and the more info you include will make it easier to track down the problem
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MutantTurkey	Raevyn: a screenshot of the suggested area could help, as well as what instances it occurs
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MutantTurkey	Raevyn: thanks :)
Raevyn	sure.. i will change the theme and do that
Raevyn	one moment.. i have a work call
MutantTurkey	Raevyn: take your time
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: just wondering, where are the bluetooth related apis that are broken?
kb9vqf	libbluez
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I mean is there existing code right now for it?
MutantTurkey	for trinity
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	it's shut off though
kb9vqf	because of the API change
MutantTurkey	where is it?
kb9vqf	it's a kioslave somewhere
kb9vqf	grep for it
MutantTurkey	okay thanks :D
kb9vqf	np
MutantTurkey	not there :|
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: don't see it
kb9vqf	don't have time to help right now, but it is somewhere in the Trinity modules (could be kdeaddons for instance)
MutantTurkey	okay thanks
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: also another thing with display config, the config files I think are set to the wrong file permissions, should be readable by anyone, only editable by root. rihgt now I can only read as root
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kb9vqf	it won't matter much as you have to be root to apply the display config
kb9vqf	BTW is the crash fixed?
MutantTurkey	about to check
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: but users may want to look at it... it's whatever just seems abnormal because  ican view all my other /etc/ files as a regular user.
kb9vqf	I do understand and I'm not disagreeing :)
MutantTurkey	:)
MutantTurkey	okay plugging into my whole setup
* MutantTurkey has external mouse, keyboard, montor etc
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MutantTurkey	okay it worked but the system is going a bit whavcky
MutantTurkey	X is at 99 percet usage.
MutantTurkey	gotta reboot
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: not good
kb9vqf	?
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay it definitely messed with my system. I think it was because I set the settings wrong,
kb9vqf	most likely
kb9vqf	you can most definitely crash buggy Xorg drivers by using RandR 1.3 features :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: no actually I think my system cannot handle it
MutantTurkey	possibility
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	what exactly happens??
* kb9vqf is somehow not surprised given that your number of attached monitors was changing spontaneously...
MutantTurkey	well now it works...
MutantTurkey	:D
MutantTurkey	I set it to a non native resolution by accident as well as did "extend" desktop
MutantTurkey	the resolutions were all weird and such
MutantTurkey	now I have set it to very standard settings and it is working 100% okay
MutantTurkey	that means it was probably my driver and display
MutantTurkey	not the program
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: though I do have a single gripe about the kcm control modules
MutantTurkey	they are not resizeable to a decent small size
kb9vqf	?
MutantTurkey	on my laptop I have to scroll up and down to get stuff done :|
kb9vqf	ohhh....
kb9vqf	yeah
kb9vqf	I noticed that too
MutantTurkey	it is a not good thing
kb9vqf	it's much, much worse under KDE4
MutantTurkey	It goes against some specification I am sure
kb9vqf	actually not :-P
MutantTurkey	the one that says " all programs should be resizable under any space"
kb9vqf	try doing that to your Web browser
kb9vqf	you can't
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: there was some sort of design agreement, It may have beeen just within gnome though
kb9vqf	just within Gnome yes, but the easiest way to do that is to either 1) remove features or 2) make you wade through dozens of nested pages ala KDE4
MutantTurkey	yeah
kb9vqf	so be careful what you ask for ;-)
MutantTurkey	I understand the problem
MutantTurkey	mostly it was a issue for me when programs forced thier size
MutantTurkey	this at least is an acceptable solution
kb9vqf	What is your screen resolution?
MutantTurkey	1600x900 on desktop, it's good there. on my laptop screen it is 1366x768
MutantTurkey	dinner bbs
kb9vqf	ah, so the minimum display should probably be 1024x768
kb9vqf	on some systems this was handled with an "Advanced" button that would fold up little-used settings
kb9vqf	anyway, not something that can be tackled for 3.5.13, but something that should definitely have an "enhancement" bug report filed about
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Overall what is your impression of the display configuration tool, now that it has stopped crashing?
kb9vqf	Also, the only-readable-as-root issue has been fixed in SVN revision 1257597.
MutantTurkey	It is excellent i  would say
MutantTurkey	on par with the one available from Mac and windows
MutantTurkey	better than windows tbh
MutantTurkey	not sure if valid: could the displays in the dropbox use their titles?
MutantTurkey	as in COMPAQ 2009 and LVDS Lenovo Screen
MutantTurkey	even in brackets around it
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: HDMI Output on :0 (HP Display E400 23")
MutantTurkey	or some such
MutantTurkey	maybe to make it clearer
MutantTurkey	not necessary
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: also, the primary monitor should not be movable, because I can drag it around it makes it confusing
kb9vqf	it does reset after dragging, right?
MutantTurkey	I kept trying to reposition it on top of the other one, then realize I had to drag the other one back
kb9vqf	ah, ok
kb9vqf	good point
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: it resets, but if it was unmoveable it would be good
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	glad it finally worked for you :)
kb9vqf	and I assume that automatic application of settings on startup also works properly?
MutantTurkey	Also I had an instance where the "Confirm DIsplay Settings" pops up behind my other windows
kb9vqf	BTW you will need to poke me later about the primary monitor movable issue
MutantTurkey	it needs to be on top no matter what.
kb9vqf	yeah, I saw that too
MutantTurkey	and yes it works, but if I restart and the primary monitor is gone, all hell will break loose I think
kb9vqf	how about you create an Etherpad real quick with any issues you find with the display config utility
MutantTurkey	okl
kb9vqf	well, no, it shouldn't
MutantTurkey	should there be some sort of fallback setting?
kb9vqf	in fact if it can't load the config it is supposed to reset to defaults
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	good :)
kb9vqf	but please check it :)
MutantTurkey	we need to probably test this on more desktops as well?
kb9vqf	and also please do create the new Etherpad and put any and all issues with displayconfig in it
MutantTurkey	right now
MutantTurkey	doing it
kb9vqf	yep, testing on desktops would be good, I have done some of that
MutantTurkey	another thing, with the test settings button
MutantTurkey	it applys them permenantly yes
MutantTurkey	?
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MutantTurkey	nevermind
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: o/
kb9vqf	nope, test settings only loads the config temporarily
MutantTurkey	okay
KingSphinx	?
kb9vqf	and does not save the settings to the global files
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: hey (that little o/ is a guy waving his arm)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: good good
KingSphinx	Oh, lol, didn't know. Also, decided to wait until 11.10 to reinstall Trinity seeing as it releases next week and all.
KingSphinx	Still a bit split about installing "stable" or nightlies, though I am starting to lean a bit towards nightlies...
kb9vqf	oneric needs to be built soon...grrr...
kb9vqf	and I have the certs to fix still :-P
kb9vqf	when it rains it pours!
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: I am all about nightlies
MutantTurkey	I always trust upstream, they tend to know more about matters than I do in general
MutantTurkey	so nightlys, beta versions, all that good stuff, I love :D
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf:actually my alt tabbing isn't working...
MutantTurkey	wait nevermind... weird though
KingSphinx	What's new in the nightlies over 3.5.12? (Other than bugfixes and the like, as that's sort of obvious)
MutantTurkey	bug fixes, we have a new display configuration tool, conversion to cmake, more work on the Tqt end...
MutantTurkey	what else?
KingSphinx	Cmake conversion is complete?
MutantTurkey	We have converted the core of the desktop
MutantTurkey	kdelibs, kdebase etc
MutantTurkey	those were the things that were broken with automake
MutantTurkey	work is continuing on the other things
MutantTurkey	frankly CMake is so much less of a pain than automake
KingSphinx	Isn't Automake one of the reasons that KDE pretty much "started over" with 4.0?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: ^
MutantTurkey	They (along with numerous projects, actually TONS of them) have been switching away from automake, and other things like svn which many people see as outdated tools
KingSphinx	SVN's outdated?
MutantTurkey	we have ourselves been migrating certain things to our git
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: not exactly
MutantTurkey	but there are other tools that can do the job better in some cases
MutantTurkey	that is the same with automake, it is continued to be developed, but many projects especially large ones are, are better suited with a modern make system
MutantTurkey	same idea
KingSphinx	Then again, I've only ever built two things from SVN (compiled E17 and GNUstep), so it's not much of a difference to me.
KingSphinx	That reminds me... is it possible to have E16 and E17 together on the same system?
MutantTurkey	yes I think so
MutantTurkey	I am not much of a E17 guy or E16 guy
MutantTurkey	but it was nice back in the day
KingSphinx	Eh, they're okay for what they are, but IMO, Fluxbox is a better WM than either version of E :P
KingSphinx	That said, I still love a full-featured DE over a minimalistic WM
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: I like a really good DE, or a really minimal WM (scrotwm or dwm)
KingSphinx	Oh yeah! Apparently Fedora's default UUID has changed to 100 instead of 500 :D
MutantTurkey	why is that?
KingSphinx	*1000
KingSphinx	forgot the third 0
KingSphinx	It's to get in line with most of the other major distros, and it's a welcome relief, to say the least (permissions errors almost screwed over my first install of Trinity)
MutantTurkey	good then
KingSphinx	Are there still no plans for Red Hat/Fedora RPMs of Trinity?
MutantTurkey	I thought someone was working on that
KingSphinx	(the whole /opt debacle is why I switched back to Ubuntu)
MutantTurkey	We have redhat in our packaging tree
MutantTurkey	http://git.trinitydesktop.org/viewgit/index.php?a=tree&p=Trinity%20Desktop%20Environment%20Packaging&h=f589fa1aa996d6d3513b764e72ced1780478f11e&hb=68d1f8b3fcbf6dd815ad8b62485a981133bddbbf&f=redhat
MutantTurkey	looks fairly completed but I am not sure who is running it
MutantTurkey	alabator
MutantTurkey	is working onit
KingSphinx	I take it that the RHEL version won't install in /opt? Or will yum just throw a ton of crap, but allow it?
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: I really don't know. I am not packaging it
MutantTurkey	you an email him though.
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: somehow Xorg knows what the manufacturer is and such
MutantTurkey	I am not familiar with video interfaces
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: also, what about wayland?
MutantTurkey	nevermind that also
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: yes, but Xorg does not export that information anywhere useful
kb9vqf	we could propose an XRandR-ish extension perhaps
kb9vqf	but it would probably be years before it trickled down to the distributions
kb9vqf	BTW main features of 3.5.12 are: lots of bugfixes, new displayconfig tool, secure attention key support, CMake conversion of core modules, and the fact that it builds on modern distributions :)
K`zan	!! BZ!
tbottu	K`zan: Error: "!" is not a valid command.
kb9vqf	????
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KingSphinx	Welp, Steve Jobs has bit the dust.
Xu_R	i know DX
Xu_R	so sad :(
kb9vqf	unfortunately the DRMed legacy that was built lives on...
kb9vqf	his earlier stuff was great though!
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Raevyn	So has anyone got Kitty to work? lol
kb9vqf	What's kitty?
Raevyn	its an kde podcast software thing but i think its too old now (sadface)
Raevyn	it says that kdelibs4c2a (>= 4:3.5.9) is required
kb9vqf	ah
kb9vqf	It isn't part of our software distribution (yet)
Raevyn	ahh.. can i install it manually?
kb9vqf	why don't you file a needs-packaging bug on http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net
kb9vqf	most KDE3.5-era software needs modification to work on modern systems
kb9vqf	be sure to mention a place to obtain the latest source code :)
Raevyn	okie :)
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 533 filed by raevynsrequiem@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=533 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Kitty wont install as it requires kdelibs4c2a (>= 4:3.5.9)
Raevyn	thats me! hehe
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MutantTurkey	yeah, steve jobs was a poo poo head.
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MutantTurkey	He contributed a lot of good ideas (mostly stolen from linux) and packaged them into his little drm box that worked so well because he made a monopoly for his hardware.
MutantTurkey	either way.
MutantTurkey	I am sad that he passed, then agan maybe mac will spiral out of control
MutantTurkey	only can hope for the best!
kb9vqf	Windows$ + Hollywood + the DMCA isn't much better
kb9vqf	at least Apple tried to strip DRM from their music
kb9vqf	just saying :)
MutantTurkey	...
MutantTurkey	not convinced
kb9vqf	I'm not arguing Apple wsa good, but instead that M$ is even worse
kb9vqf	*was
MutantTurkey	lesser of two evils
kb9vqf	yeah
MutantTurkey	both still evil
MutantTurkey	serpent and the snake
kb9vqf	from the perspective of individual freedom, quite evil :)
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	tomorrow I am going to protest that!
MutantTurkey	or something.
MutantTurkey	<not really sure, excuse to go downtown and eat good food>
kb9vqf	just be careful
MutantTurkey	of course
MutantTurkey	this is much better than NY
MutantTurkey	talks with the mayor went down, police are prepared, medicare is available.
MutantTurkey	nothing ridiculous
kb9vqf	just in general, remember that ACTA passed recently, and that even protesting DRM is becoming linked with "piracy"
MutantTurkey	mayor approved it basically by saying "these are issues that we need to talk about, and people are here to talk"
kb9vqf	that's good
MutantTurkey	isn't ACTA bad?
kb9vqf	bery
kb9vqf	*very
MutantTurkey	i only have heard of one song
MutantTurkey	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elUwRb4DroU
kb9vqf	it's more DMCA-style DRM
MutantTurkey	some guy rapping about it.
kb9vqf	ugh
kb9vqf	well, it was signed
MutantTurkey	well thats that
MutantTurkey	it actually doesn't matter. imho
MutantTurkey	laws can be set in stone and it won't matter.
kb9vqf	I've already given up on playing anything "copyrighted" on my computers anyway, excepting CDs
kb9vqf	or free OTA broadcasts (my favorite!)
kb9vqf	certainly won't pay for Windows to do that when I can get a set top box for cheaper, and stuff just works ;-)
MutantTurkey	I go with a lot of music from jamendo, or local artists
MutantTurkey	only a few big names I support
kb9vqf	their anti-piracy measures just make me not buy the disk (and therefore they lose money)--instead I just wait for it to air on TV for free :-)
kb9vqf	and if it doesn't air oh well
kb9vqf	I must be their worst nightmare of a customer :))
MutantTurkey	all my musical preference is like big band and jazz and some new rock stuff, mostly I have it all on vinyl and CD's i have are few
kb9vqf	well, if a CD is available and I like it I buy it, as there is no reason not to
kb9vqf	CDs are not protected by DRM generally
MutantTurkey	except for that sony dealio
kb9vqf	and I like to encourage distribution in non-DRMed formats :)
kb9vqf	well, those I don't buy :-P
MutantTurkey	ogg is quite nice
kb9vqf	if it won't play in a regular CD player then I won't buy it
kb9vqf	besides, where I am at there is a good radio station so I get most of my listening enjoyment for free
kb9vqf	*local radio station
kb9vqf	FM
kb9vqf	great sound quality
kb9vqf	anyway I digress off topic yet again
MutantTurkey	yeah. we have a few really good local stations as well
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: that's allowed you know :P
kb9vqf	hehe
MutantTurkey	all work and no play makes jack a very dull boy
kb9vqf	yepo
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay I gotta get ready
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	thanks for testing the display stuff
MutantTurkey	yessir
kb9vqf	I'll see what I can do to fix the certs
MutantTurkey	oaky
MutantTurkey	okay'
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KingSphinx	Excuse me if I'm wrong, but technically, isn't ACTA unconstitutional? Treaties need to be ratified by two-thirds of the Senate, and IIRC, ACTA bypassed the Senate entirely.
kb9vqf	I'm not sure
kb9vqf	It would be interesting to see though
kb9vqf	the current administration usually finds excuses to justify its actions
kb9vqf	in my opinion the threshold for ratification of a treaty (of any type) should be as high or higher than a constitutional amendment
kb9vqf	as that is essentially what a treaty is in practive
kb9vqf	*practice
kb9vqf	but what do I know? ;-)
kb9vqf	IANAL
KingSphinx	That's what happens when stuff like this is kept secret for reasons of "national security."
KingSphinx	At least the EU had enough sense to not even consider signing it.
kb9vqf	so they did not sign at all??
kb9vqf	that's good
kb9vqf	sometimes I wish I lived in Germany
kb9vqf	they have so many more digital rights than the United States does
kb9vqf	last I checked anyway :)
kb9vqf	oh well
kb9vqf	maybe sometime this stuff will be repealed
kb9vqf	after the average consumer starts paying $100 to watch one movie
kb9vqf	:-P
KingSphinx	Meh, I haven't gone to see a movie since The Last Airbender (it was terrible, but a fun waste of time)
kb9vqf	well, we're hardly average
kb9vqf	I mean the Jobs-worshipping Apple crowd ;-)
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MutantTurkey	dude, kb9vqf today was awesome. I was on TV and all over new coverage
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MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: what
MobileTurkey	wha
MobileTurkey	this keyboard... grr
MobileTurkey	what's good?
kb9vqf	well, fixes are in SVN for the certs and the display config utility
MobileTurkey	you rock
MobileTurkey	dude I am all over the news!
MobileTurkey	http://www.flickr.com/photos/cavalier92/6218261784/in/set-72157627833221226/?reg=1
MobileTurkey	http://www.philly.com/philly/gallery/Occupy_Philadelphia_protest.html
MobileTurkey	and a bunch of other places don't feel like copying...
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: how did you resolve the certs?
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: From KDE4
kb9vqf	their certificates are identical to ours normall
kb9vqf	*normally
MobileTurkey	awesome
kb9vqf	apparently only one .crt file got corrupted, probably in the TQt autoconversion
MobileTurkey	cool
MobileTurkey	well thats resolved
MobileTurkey	I gotta go to bed
MobileTurkey	talk to you sometime this week
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: Feel like working on a nice fat bug?
kb9vqf	But 521
kb9vqf	Bug 521
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=521 normal, P5, ---, anixxsus, NEW, Trinity networking breaks with network-manager 0.9
kb9vqf	would be nice if that could  be fixed in the next week or so
* kb9vqf would prefer to ship 3.5.13 working with nm-0.9
Qu4Z	Is 3.5.13 shipping soon? :)
Qu4Z	I keep meaning to actually contribute to development, but I'm pretty busy at the moment.
Xu_R	sure, if I have time this weekend (I hope...)
Xu_R	wait
Xu_R	didn't she send a patch to the list
Xu_R	that you committed?
Xu_R	*he
kb9vqf	Xu_R: The patch only fixed compilation
kb9vqf	knetworkmanager doesn't work properly under NM API .09
kb9vqf	primarily because nm API 0.9 dropped the settings DBUS service (surprise surprise)
kb9vqf	they now have something called a "secret agent" service that stores the settings instead
* kb9vqf thinks it's pretty tacky :)
kb9vqf	Qu4Z: It *should* ship somewhere around the beginning of November
kb9vqf	barring any showstopper bugs (e.g. if it won't compile under Oneric, etc.)
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 534 filed by midenok@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=534 critical, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Widgets inside Kommander are not moved
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tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 38 from NEEDINFO to RESOLVED WORKSFORME.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=38 normal, P3, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED WORKSFORME, Adept Manager not able to add repositories
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Xu_R|School	hello world
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Xu_R	tbottu, tell kb9vqf oic
tbottu	Xu_R: Error: I haven't seen kb9vqf, I'll let you do the telling.
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: oic. I'll take a look at changes then.
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	Xu_R: You will want to reference this: http://projects.gnome.org/NetworkManager/developers/api/09/ref-migrating.html
Xu_R	kk
kb9vqf	It looks like a real mess to be honest
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Read the section "Elimination of the User Settings Service" for what needs to be changed
kb9vqf	Also please note that in the Trinity source there are #defines that are set based on the NM API version
kb9vqf	so when patching please keep any NM 0.9 changes in a  #ifdef / #else / #endif block
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	Gnome tends to really foul things up...something as critical as network-manager should be under the control of a project that doesn't continually try to over-simplify things
kb9vqf	oh well
Xu_R	ok
Xu_R	you know what? it's friday. let me do it now before I head for a much needed nap
kb9vqf	and remember as well that the release is coming up very soon
kb9vqf	so the changes need to be in SVN probably in the next few days :-
Xu_R	yup...
* Xu_R looks at all the deadlines he has too >>;
kb9vqf	good luck :)
Xu_R	thanks
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: Do you think you will be able to handle the knetworkmanager fixes?
* kb9vqf just wants to know what to expect :)
Xu_R	maybe. I'll let you know tmrw if I figured it out or not. :P
* Xu_R is currently trying to process this info xD
kb9vqf	ok
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay more problems with desktop locker
kb9vqf	please elaborate
* kb9vqf thinks we might miss the Nov. release date :(((
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: there is a (nother mayber) window
MutantTurkey	after I repoen from sleep, I logged in
MutantTurkey	but there was still the window
MutantTurkey	I sent s scrot
MutantTurkey	I dunno if its the same or more than one was spawned
kb9vqf	only after suspend, correct?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: yes
MutantTurkey	thats the only time i do it though
MutantTurkey	let me get you a picture
MutantTurkey	http://imagebin.org/177901
kb9vqf	oh fun
kb9vqf	I take it you can interact with your desktop session?
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Can you interact with your desktop session after your first login attempt?
kb9vqf	when the screen locker is running normally it should latch on to all X11 input and prevent you from clicking on windows or typing things
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kb9vqf	I want to verify that you can't interact with your desktop BEFORE your first login attempt, but that you can AFTER you enter your password once
kb9vqf	That will help me nail down the exact cause of the glitch
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kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: (for the channel log in case you read it): I suspect that kdesktop_lock is not able to close all of its windows, even though it has shut down the root backing window and released the Xorg input lock
kb9vqf	but I need you to confirm that the latter two actions have already occurred after you log in onice
kb9vqf	*once
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: sorry internet kicked, did you check the lyrics?
kb9vqf	lyrics??
kb9vqf	Check the channel log :)
MutantTurkey	lyrics..
MutantTurkey	I mean photo
MutantTurkey	sorry I am at band practice. I have a bad case of qwertial aphasia
kb9vqf	I need some more info from you; check the channel log when you have time
kb9vqf	my requests are on the bottom :)
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: ok
MutantTurkey	might be able to stop in later
schreiberstein	Hi MutantTurkey!
schreiberstein	I'm using these packages on arch atm. They're awesome. Just FYI.
schreiberstein	https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=97612&p=1
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Borg^Queen	Hello humans, AIs and others
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay so the screen lock is acting up
MutantTurkey	I didn't kill it, i figured i would see if we could get any info while its happening
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hoernerfranz	hi all,
hoernerfranz	I'm just trying to figure out how to build trinity applications from source
hoernerfranz	svn checkout works ok
hoernerfranz	cmake is available
hoernerfranz	also everything to build kde3/trinity stuff from source (at least for auto* based modules)
hoernerfranz	now when I try e.g. to build dolphin from svn (cmake based)
hoernerfranz	I get this:
hoernerfranz	Unable to find tqt!
hoernerfranz	so, I'obviously missing something called tqt
hoernerfranz	anyone here can tell me how to get it ?
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: What's the verdict on the knetworkmanager fixes?
Xu_R	I'm seeing only a lof of org.freedesktop.NetworkManagerUserSettings...
Xu_R	I'm trying to figure out what NM_DBUS_SERVICE is doing in KNetworkManager
kb9vqf	Probably not much
kb9vqf	and yes there are a lot of interfaces to NetworkManagerUserSettings
kb9vqf	because for all of network-manager's life until 0.9 that was the "preferred way" to interface to it
kb9vqf	:-P
Xu_R	xD
kb9vqf	@#!$ Gnome people
Xu_R	according to this
Xu_R	all that is needed is to change that to org.freedesktop.NetworkManager
kb9vqf	try it if you want
Xu_R	"and update the D-Bus interface that codes uses to talk to the settings service to org.freedesktop.NetworkManager.Settings."
kb9vqf	I don't know if that works for secrets
Xu_R	second part not so sure XD
kb9vqf	(i.e. passwords)
kb9vqf	can you try it?
Xu_R	sure
kb9vqf	i.e. do you have nm 0.9 on one of your machines ?
Xu_R	no.
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	that makes things more difficult
Xu_R	:-\
Xu_R	i'm seeing if I can fire up an openSUSE factory with NM 0.9 right now...
kb9vqf	Xu_R: And I don't think it's quite that simple either
Xu_R	never is...
kb9vqf	storing secrets or user-level connection information system-wide is a Bad IDea
kb9vqf	so you'd have to figure out the new permissions API
Xu_R	hmm...
Xu_R	they do this with user secret agents...
Xu_R	"The agent should export the org.freedesktop.NetworkManager.SecretAgent D-Bus interface, but should NOT claim a bus name on the system or session bus."
kb9vqf	That *might* directly replace the user settings service, but I'm not 100% sure
kb9vqf	I have never been that good with DBUS :-P
Xu_R	according to this... it does.
kb9vqf	see what you can do to make it work
Xu_R	kk
kb9vqf	I'm just looking for wireless connections, wired connections to work at this point
Xu_R	how would I export the org.freedesktop.NetworkManager.SecretAgent DBus interface?...
kb9vqf	I don't know
kb9vqf	Xu_R: How is knetworkmanager designed?
kb9vqf	i.e.
kb9vqf	does it export a user sessions service?
Xu_R	don't think so...
kb9vqf	or does it connect to a user settings service that network-manager exports??
Xu_R	I think it connects to a user settings service that networkmanager exports
kb9vqf	if the latter, then you need to use the system-wide configuration service and set the permissions keys
* kb9vqf can't type today
Xu_R	hmm...
Xu_R	like, it's calling NM_DBUS_SERVICE and such but I can't figure out where that's coming from...
kb9vqf	it's a define in the network-manager headers
Xu_R	oic
kb9vqf	all of the DBUS service names are available in the network-manager headers as #defines
Xu_R	o.
kb9vqf	It might help to draw a diagram of all data flow and data repositories that were present in the knetworkmanager <--> nm 0.8 system
kb9vqf	then remove the user settings service and see what data flows are left dangling
kb9vqf	Xu_R: You will need to implement the secret agent bit for VPNs to work
kb9vqf	so I would start working on that first
Xu_R	I think you need to implement it app-wide
kb9vqf	yes, that is true
Xu_R	for the whole thing to work...
Xu_R	btw, you know cmake doesn't build the VPN bits, right?
kb9vqf	basically a new C++ file to provide a storage daemon for settings
kb9vqf	well I build it with Automake
Xu_R	oic.
kb9vqf	because of that :)
Xu_R	Well, I could just call a register object whenever the application is started...
Xu_R	it would automatically unregister itself when the application closes...
kb9vqf	if that will work then do it
kb9vqf	but something needs to monitor incoming requests on that interface
kb9vqf	as well as register with network-manager
kb9vqf	and we'll also need to store settings in some kind of backend servic
kb9vqf	*service
kb9vqf	that can be accessed from the secret-agent service
kb9vqf	ughh
kb9vqf	are you in over your head on this?
Xu_R	I think that shouldn't be an issue  because  org.freedesktop.NetworkManager works the same way as org.freedesktop.NetworkManagerUserSettings
Xu_R	and once the register object is called
Xu_R	nothing else should have to be done...
kb9vqf	I was reading that VPNs are broken unless the client provides the secret-agent service
kb9vqf	and possibly other connection types as well
Xu_R	well, IIRC the whole thing is broken without registering the secret-agent service :-\
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	so, can you give me a approximate timeline on this yet?
kb9vqf	i.e. if it's going to take you 2 years then there will be a big problem :)
Xu_R	XD
Xu_R	how about I try this register thing in knetworkmanager.cpp
Xu_R	throw you a patch
Xu_R	and have you inspect :P
Xu_R	like... in 15 minutes XD
kb9vqf	something tells me it won't work right :-P
kb9vqf	the API changes are quite extensiev
kb9vqf	*extensive
Xu_R	hehehe
kb9vqf	better yet, why don't you try it on your machine?
kb9vqf	I assume you have a wireless connection available?
Xu_R	there are new device states, new active connection states, and WiMAX support... xD
kb9vqf	yep, yep
Xu_R	I don't have linux on a laptop yet... xD
kb9vqf	the device states were handled
Xu_R	b/c I only have a desktop
kb9vqf	same with the connection states
Xu_R	my parents are using windows on laptops ._."
kb9vqf	ithe setting sservices are the problem now
kb9vqf	Xu_R: The comments here are interesting: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/NetworkManager/NetworkManager/commit/?h=f15&id=fd3c49224a20bf6e60b2ca10befc57c6b82b5a90
kb9vqf	I wonder if it really is that simple
kb9vqf	with Gnome stuff usually isn't, but maybe in this case....
* kb9vqf dreams
* Xu_R hopes
Xu_R	http://live.gnome.org/NetworkManager/ApiSimplify
Xu_R	did not know about GetSecrets and SetSecrets... oh dear.
kb9vqf	heh
kb9vqf	have fun!
Xu_R	this is why linux is still unpopular - we break so many APIs and ABIs that it pisses off developers
Xu_R	XD
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	I was just talking about that the other day
kb9vqf	the fact that Linux was percieved as stable and such for so long (pre-2007) was that the main APIs were basically untouchable and backwards-compatibile
kb9vqf	POSIX, Xorg, etc.
kb9vqf	now it's just a complete mess
Xu_R	and now enter this crap.
Xu_R	yup.
kb9vqf	everyone thinks they can break everything every year
kb9vqf	Even this project offers a backwards-compatible version
kb9vqf	i.e. we add stuff, sure, but we don't run around REMOVING stuff from our APIs
Xu_R	exactly.
Xu_R	only remove if it's like... what? 10 years old? ._.
Xu_R	and nobody uses it anymore XD
kb9vqf	that's the key right there
kb9vqf	we still have POSIX stuff in the kernel that has to be at least 30 years old
kb9vqf	still in use by millions of people :)
Xu_R	EXACTLY!
Xu_R	ok, I'm sending a message to the networkmanager ML... xD
kb9vqf	??
kb9vqf	so do you think you will be able to handle the knetworkmanager fixups?
* Xu_R is so confused by their API explaination
kb9vqf	ah, ok
Xu_R	ok, I sent a message. Hopefully I'll hear from them and they can explain...
kb9vqf	can you fix some of the other stuff (DBUS service names for the settings service for example) in the mean time?
kb9vqf	I'm going to attempt the promised rebuild for oneiric, but that could blow up completely and leave me fixing other bugs for a while
Xu_R	the DBUS service names are fixed
Xu_R	I'll look at the wimax stuff and maybe the states
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Xu_R	bbiab
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: You should have asked me first before posting to the list ;-)
kb9vqf	I could have helped you with those questions
kb9vqf	All DBUS access under Trinity is handled via dbus-tqt
kb9vqf	it's an interface library
kb9vqf	look in knetworkmanager-connection_secrets_dbus.cpp
kb9vqf	that is what should possibly become the secret agent service
kb9vqf	and as far as the storage of settings I believe knetworkmanager still has to store the settings internally, and give them to network-manager upon request
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: Any luck getting network-manager to work?
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R4OuL	hi
R4OuL	anyone here ?
schreiberstein	Hello! A friend of mine is building kde3 (3.5.10) on lfs. We're using glibc-2.14 and libtirpc (cause rpc isn't included in glibc 2.14 anymore). He tries to build kdebase atm. But there is this problem  : http://pastebin.com/Ag1PgqrW -- How to fix that?
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: Any progress on knetworkmanager?
Xu_R	Figuring it out, yes
Xu_R	writing the code, somewhat ;)
kb9vqf	cool
kb9vqf	now for the 1,000,000&#8368; question: does it work? ;-)
Xu_R	ummm...
Xu_R	ummm...
Xu_R	*shifts eyes* maybe?
Xu_R	XD
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	I'll wait for a working version :)
Xu_R	I'll get it to you hopefully by the middle of the week.
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	while you've been busy with that TDE has grown another little package
kb9vqf	avahi-tqt
kb9vqf	as Ubuntu completely dropped Qt3 in oneiric
Xu_R	oic... so this is another dependency then?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	IMHO this is actually a good thing
kb9vqf	as now we can move to the TQt namespace with almost no chance of breaking something
kb9vqf	(except kdebindings, but that's its own special problem)
Xu_R	:D
kb9vqf	looking forward to having a working knetworkmanager...thanks for working on it! :)
Xu_R	ok
Xu_R	np
Xu_R	hopefully it'll take some workload off the bug problems...
kb9vqf	yep
Xu_R	ok, ima bbl. parents want me to do something for them
Xu_R	ttyl
kb9vqf	sure
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: I think I fixed the problem with suspend/hibernate in SVN a few days ago
kb9vqf	binaries should be built shortly
kb9vqf	it actually isn
kb9vqf	*isn't a problem with the desktop lock AFAICT
kb9vqf	it was an issue in the smserver
kb9vqf	but I'll wait for you to test it after the binaries are built before I claim it's fixed for sure :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay awesome!
kb9vqf	binaries could be a few days as I'm trying to get Oneiric to build now
MutantTurkey	any problems with oneiric?
kb9vqf	so far I've had to move yet another Qt3 interface (for Avahi) to TQt
kb9vqf	not sure what else needs to be done yet
kb9vqf	There is the problem with network-manager API 0.9 that Xu_R is working ojn
kb9vqf	*on
MutantTurkey	I have tons of issues with gtk
MutantTurkey	on here
MutantTurkey	tons
MutantTurkey	everything crashes but I don't know where to start
MutantTurkey	we have some sort of wrappe rright?
kb9vqf	yes we do
kb9vqf	kgtk-qt3-kde3
kb9vqf	err...new name is kgtk-qt3-trinity
* kb9vqf still hasn't updated his workstation
kb9vqf	is it installed on your machine?
kb9vqf	and please be more specific than "everything crashes" :)
MutantTurkey	firefox displays icorrectly, geany and transmission also crash seemingly randomly
MutantTurkey	possible over column and tree areas
MutantTurkey	those are the only gtk apps I use so I dunno what else
MutantTurkey	gotta shower and stuff, I'll bbs
kb9vqf	ok, can you give me any backtraces?
kb9vqf	firefox 4 has known graphical issues, even outside of Trinity
kb9vqf	an upgrade to Firefox 5 fixed most of them for m
kb9vqf	*me
kb9vqf	Firefox
kb9vqf	grr
kb9vqf	Firefox has poor quality control lately
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	I dont really like the new release model
MutantTurkey	what I like is LIBRE office
MutantTurkey	they have also a time release
MutantTurkey	but they continue to send fixes back to the previous version
MutantTurkey	it's just designed better
MutantTurkey	frankly I don't like chromes method either
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: firefox 5? firefox 7 is out...
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	I don't run bleeding edge
kb9vqf	I have a business to run here
kb9vqf	and can't afford to be fighting with a flaky computer all the time
MutantTurkey	yeah
MutantTurkey	what do you do business wise
MutantTurkey	?
kb9vqf	s/a flaky computer/lots of flaky computers/g
kb9vqf	engineering
MutantTurkey	I was thinking about going to school for engineering.
kb9vqf	if you are good at mathematics, problem solving, etc. then go for it :)
MutantTurkey	yeah problem solving is a strength. Math I am fine at, I see it more as a process so I think logically in steps for it
kb9vqf	you will use it as a tool in engineering
MutantTurkey	it's that or becoming a history or math teacher  or computer science degree, or music
MutantTurkey	so I am at sort of a crossroads coming up
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	I wish you luck on the decision :)
MutantTurkey	the worst part is that I want to do all of them!
MutantTurkey	of course computers has always been my sideline hobby, so I think i might just start a linux club at school or something
kb9vqf	pick some as hobbies, and pick the one that you still want to do even when you are having a rotten day as your primary focus
kb9vqf	that's my best advice
kb9vqf	because there will be days when you don't even want to get up and face your job
MutantTurkey	right, you need to be able to go in on a crappy day
MutantTurkey	teaching is full of those days, my mums a teach so I sort of get the routine
MutantTurkey	mostly I am interested in administration
kb9vqf	comp sci might be up your alley then
MutantTurkey	as for computer science, same deal. I would rather be a project manager, keep the ball rolling, instead of being an actaul coder
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	everyone starts as a coder though
MutantTurkey	ye
kb9vqf	otherwise they will make terrible managerws
kb9vqf	*managers
MutantTurkey	my uncle started at microsoft in the 80's
MutantTurkey	he retired at 30
kb9vqf	forced retirement or a good one?
MutantTurkey	now he works for 6 months and goes on exotic vacations the other six months
kb9vqf	good I take it :)
MutantTurkey	very good
MutantTurkey	except he sort of got bored and depressed so he had to go back to work
kb9vqf	yes, I would expect that
kb9vqf	those opportunites don't really exist anywhere any more
kb9vqf	computers are ubiquitous
MutantTurkey	but I am looking longterm, teaching is a great way to keep moving up but have a stable retirement plan etc
kb9vqf	but can you deal with a constant stream of students who don't want to learn?
kb9vqf	some people can and others get fed up and become jaded, lousy instructors
MutantTurkey	I think so, I mean I quit high school and went to community college
kb9vqf	just something to think about :)
MutantTurkey	right, devils advocate is always your best advocate
MutantTurkey	but with history, it's actually more of a human studies class, incorportaing history but relating it to modern day, economics, teaching about the goverment, political parties
MutantTurkey	I am pretty intersted in all of that
kb9vqf	can't help too much there; I do keep tabs on politics but more from the long view; i.e. how current civilizations compare to ancient ones and attempting to predict outcomes of current actions, etc.
kb9vqf	based on historical evidence
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	exactly what they are focusing on
MutantTurkey	"thematic approach vs hard numbers
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTurkey	it doesn't matter when jefferson was alive, rather what he said
kb9vqf	so you would be looking at more of a collegiate position?
MutantTurkey	Depends if i get my masters
MutantTurkey	I could have my masters at 21 though so I might just do it
kb9vqf	well, I need to get going, but if you run into more GTK apps crashing please grab backtraces
kb9vqf	and I wish you luck on your decision :)
kb9vqf	the backtraces will indicate if Trinity is even involved in causing the crash
kb9vqf	remember a lot of people don't know how to program these days and the application itself could be inherently unstable...
kb9vqf	*GTK application
MutantTurkey	It is trinity
MutantTurkey	i am almost sure
MutantTurkey	because it is twice happening in the same type of graphical area
kb9vqf	ok...backtrace into bug report if you are sure
MutantTurkey	I'll send you some backtraces
MutantTurkey	I don't really follow them to well
kb9vqf	post them in a bug report
kb9vqf	with 3.5.13 release coming up they may not be looked at until after the move to GIT
MutantTurkey	yes it was trinity
kb9vqf	also make sure that your debugging symbols are installed
MutantTurkey	for gtk?
MutantTurkey	i have kdelibs-dbg installed
kb9vqf	kdebase-trinity-dbg at a minimum
kb9vqf	gtk debug symbols for the app in question would also help
kb9vqf	then let it crash again and regrab the backtrace
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	gdb APP, run, bt
MutantTurkey	yes?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	bt is typed after the segfault shows up
kb9vqf	or SIGABORT, or whatever the error is
kb9vqf	and the please put it in a new bug report with detailed information (and possibly screenshots of the affected area)
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: as I thought, It's the overlay scrollbar i think
MutantTurkey	not sure though, but those areas seem affected
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 535 filed by mutantturkey@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=535 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Gtk apps crash when using kgtk
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: there ya go
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 535 from NEW to NEEDINFO.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=535 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEEDINFO, Gtk apps crash when using kgtk
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 468 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=468 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, kgtk-qt3-kde3 crashes gnumeric on "File/Save As"
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: any help?
MutantTurkey	rather, do you want more information about that kgtk bug?
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: See the bug report
kb9vqf	I need a detailed method to generate the crash
MutantTurkey	okay just saw it
kb9vqf	as no matter what I do I can't crash it here :-P
MutantTurkey	:| dang
MutantTurkey	I'll try and reproduce it methodically
kb9vqf	ok
MutantTurkey	dag I can't crash it now either.
MutantTurkey	:
MutantTurkey	:| looking like a fool
MutantTurkey	I'll look into it tomorrow, I've got a english paper, any further attempts to communicate tonight are just attempts to distract myself! xd
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 42 from CONFIRMED to RESOLVED INVALID.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=42 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED INVALID, gtk-qt-engine-kde3 does not work properly
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 505 from NEW to NEEDINFO.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=505 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEEDINFO, kgtk-qt3-trinity 3.5.13-0debian7+r1246260+pr1 can't be used
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 516 from NEEDINFO to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=516 critical, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, Malfunction with Audacity
MutantTurkey	woot woot
kb9vqf	Got bugs? Get Orkin
kb9vqf	Or the Trinity devs ;-)
kb9vqf	Here's hoping kgtk is fixed up nicely--if so, we now have something else KDE4 doesn't :)
kb9vqf	namely nice open/save dialogs for a wide variety of GTK apps
kb9vqf	IIRC the KDE4 code that serves a similar purpose has not been touched in years
kb9vqf	and was based on the code that is in Trinity SVN
kb9vqf	so it should fail with Chrome, etc.
MutantTurkey	yeah
MutantTurkey	the geany dialogs don't work either
kb9vqf	fixes are in SVN as of a few minutes ago
kb9vqf	that was one of the first things I fixed :)
MutantTurkey	oh boy
MutantTurkey	dude you are on a roll
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: do you think we can do .13 on time?
kb9vqf	depends on Xu_R
kb9vqf	and his knetworkmanager fixes
Xu_R	(and packaging, don't forget that DX)
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: get choo butt into gear fool!
Xu_R	although the packaging can hold out for a little longer past .13
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: are we going to do bugfix releases after that? I was meditating on it quite a bit
MutantTurkey	you know 3.5.13.1 3.5.13.2 etc,
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	depends on donations
kb9vqf	so if you want to see them get some donations coming in ;-)
kb9vqf	you know, fundraise a bit
kb9vqf	the problem is that each . release sucks down developer time and build farm resources
kb9vqf	now that I am building for 6 distributions on 2 architectures (which may increase to 3 architectures by 3.5.14) you can see that each release will use a LOT of resources
kb9vqf	frankly I can't afford that right now
kb9vqf	then there's the whole infrastructure for cherry picking patches
kb9vqf	which goes back to developer time
kb9vqf	you can't autogenerate a release
kb9vqf	it's not like the nightly builds
kb9vqf	even the nightly builds only rebuild the changed component(s)
MutantTurkey	okay
kb9vqf	sorry :)
MutantTurkey	fair enough
MutantTurkey	no reason to be sorry, maybe we need to make it more publicly clear that we have Nightly builds and we have stable release
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	IMHO that's enough
MutantTurkey	thats good for me
MutantTurkey	we need to make that clear then
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kb9vqf	Finally got kdebase to build on oneiric...hopefully the other packages will go faster than kdebase did!
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Xu_R|School	well, this is not that great DX
Xu_R|School	openSUSE generates its avahi spec files on-the-fly for certain bindings
Xu_R|School	that makes it a lot harder to get avahi-tqt in unless it ends up upstream
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: on the note of kgtk I have issues with libreoffice
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MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: so we have a avahi wrapper now
MobileTurkey	thats god
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: how can I enable debug with cmake?
MutantTurkey	cmake --help is unuseful.
MutantTurkey	got it
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay I've finally figured out how to make legit backtraces. I've found the problem with geany I think, at least  tracked it al lthe way back
MutantTurkey	it's the qt engine
kb9vqf	post the complete backtrace to your bug report
kb9vqf	along with how to crash it so that I can test the fix(es)
MutantTurkey	it's hard to reproduce.
MutantTurkey	basically when you have a C file loaded, the side bar with the function list loaded up, and you resize it, sometimes it crashs, and sometimes when you just hover the area
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	mention that in the bug report
MutantTurkey	literally to get it to crash I just dragged it randomly for a good 30 seconds
kb9vqf	and post the new backtrace :)
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	uploaded new backtrace
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MutantTurkeyX	Xu_R: yo doode
MutantTurkeyX	kb9vqf: another idea for the bug tracker, should have an "Applications" Component? because we have plenty of apps in that dir and many of them don't fit under the other categories
kb9vqf	non-core applications
MutantTurkeyX	do you like that idea?
kb9vqf	right now I am very concerned about oneiric
kb9vqf	looks like Automake changed
kb9vqf	and now each package I have tried is failing to build due to stupid little problems
MutantTurkeyX	automake changed again?
MutantTurkeyX	:|
MutantTurkeyX	I don't understand their motivation with breaking backward compat all the time
kb9vqf	it seems that all the libraries are not being passed to the linker
kb9vqf	e.g. lots of this
kb9vqf	/usr/bin/ld: contactlist/.libs/libkopetecontactlist.a(kopetemetacontactlvi.o): undefined reference to symbol 'KImageEffect::toGray(QImage&, bool)'
kb9vqf	/usr/bin/ld: note: 'KImageEffect::toGray(QImage&, bool)' is defined in DSO /opt/trinity/lib/libkdefx.so so try adding it to the linker command line
kb9vqf	/opt/trinity/lib/libkdefx.so: could not read symbols: Invalid operation
kb9vqf	if each package has to be fixed the next release will be 6 months from now
MutantTurkeyX	did their method for linking libraries change?
kb9vqf	I have no idea
MutantTurkeyX	what version of automake is it?
kb9vqf	some stuff also broke in CMake
MutantTurkeyX	hmmm
kb9vqf	1:1.11.1-1ubuntu1
MutantTurkeyX	yeah
MutantTurkeyX	Automake 1.11 fails to work in a number of situations that Automake 1.4, 1.6, 1.7, 1.8, 1.9 and 1.10 did, so has been renamed so that the previous version can continue to be made available.
MutantTurkeyX	https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+package/automake
kb9vqf	can I see the bug report on the failures?
kb9vqf	i.e. should I bother working around them?
kb9vqf	remember this release needs to work for about a year
MutantTurkeyX	right
MutantTurkeyX	does oneiric provide older versions of automake?
kb9vqf	on systems such as Gentoo who wil have newer versions of things...
kb9vqf	yes, but see above :)
MutantTurkeyX	or arch. :|
MutantTurkeyX	right
MutantTurkeyX	what broke in cmake? was it linker related?
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTurkeyX	maybe ubuntu changed their method then.
MutantTurkeyX	if they are both related.
kb9vqf	I have no idea
kb9vqf	it was just one library that failed to link to another shared library from a different directory
kb9vqf	under CMake
kb9vqf	could have been a bug for all I know
kb9vqf	I hardcoded the linker flag and all is well
MutantTurkeyX	okay
MutantTurkeyX	here is another thing I see
MutantTurkeyX	do you have binutils-gold installed?
MutantTurkeyX	on oneiric
MutantTurkeyX	"Gold is a new linker, still in development, which is faster than the current linker included in binutils. It currently fails to link some applications and libraries"
kb9vqf	nope
MutantTurkeyX	hmmm
kb9vqf	automake isn't passing all the linker flags that it used to when all_libraries is used
kb9vqf	$(all_libraries)
kb9vqf	I ran into this a while back in koffice
kb9vqf	it seems that every new release of automake forces me to hardcode more linker flags
kb9vqf	on one hand that isn't a bad thing
MutantTurkeyX	:|
MutantTurkeyX	hardcoding rather than dynamic?
kb9vqf	in fact the original automake files could be broken for all I know
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTurkeyX	okay
MutantTurkeyX	well shucks.
kb9vqf	the problem is the amount of time this usually takes
kb9vqf	(to fix)
MutantTurkeyX	right
MutantTurkeyX	a lot of manual editing of alot of files
MutantTurkeyX	I've gotta run to macroeconomics class, but I'll be on in 20 once i settle in and boot up my lappy
MutantTurkeyX	gl
kb9vqf	interestingly all of the failures so far have been on linking executables
kb9vqf	not shared objects
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MutantTurkeyX	did they change the library paths again or something?
MutantTurkeyX	kb9vqf: I am just looking around, but is it the order in which the links are being passed from gcc? apparently the libs now have to be at the end of your gcc command:: gcc file.c -o file.o -lib
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kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: you might be right!
kb9vqf	where did you find that info?
MobileTurkey	google
MobileTurkey	http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1853881
kb9vqf	when did it change?
MobileTurkey	well it's ben like that. but apparently its now forced
MobileTurkey	also, I don't know how I just went "away"
kb9vqf	oh yuck
kb9vqf	ick ick ick
MobileTurkey	?
kb9vqf	the change :-P
MobileTurkey	yea
kb9vqf	of all the stupid dumb inbicilic things to break software compilation over
MobileTurkey	if thats it, it's bad but not terrible
MobileTurkey	because apparently everyone is switching to that.
kb9vqf	it means I have to dig around in an automake file now
MobileTurkey	but I don't see why it's nessecary
kb9vqf	a huge one
kb9vqf	and try to figure out where to switch the linker flag order
MobileTurkey	the big kahuna
MobileTurkey	the automake files to end all automake files
kb9vqf	it gets worse
kb9vqf	it isn't ONLY the linker flag order
kb9vqf	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyNarwhal/ToolchainTransition
MobileTurkey	god damnit
kb9vqf	basically that says I have to add every stupid library
kb9vqf	to the linker flags
kb9vqf	this could take a while
MobileTurkey	well at least there are some docs
kb9vqf	yes, and there are 3GB of source code waiting to be picked through
kb9vqf	at one package per day it will take around 100 days
kb9vqf	so at least three months
kb9vqf	unless other packages are built better
kb9vqf	so...do I release now and push out a .14 and .15 update before 3.6?
kb9vqf	(that could get ugly)
kb9vqf	or do we wait and have yet another stupid distro decision cause even more problems?
MobileTurkey	hmmm
MobileTurkey	I don't see a reason why we need to be on ubuntus schedule
MobileTurkey	frankly I think a 6 month schedule is terrible for ubuntu and causes a ton of issues
MobileTurkey	I mean without worrying about ubuntu's release, we can open more time to fix bugs.
kb9vqf	yes, but Trinity will look more outdated if it is always available for the current Ubuntu release - 1
kb9vqf	as in it won't build on new distributions
kb9vqf	users don't care about distributons breaking things
kb9vqf	they only notice "hey, that software doesn't work with my Ubuntu!  Time to try KDE4..."
MobileTurkey	right
MobileTurkey	good point
MobileTurkey	so can we automate this at all?
kb9vqf	nope
kb9vqf	the original people who wrote the Makefile.am files did so under the assumption that indirect linking was valid
kb9vqf	as it had been for decades
kb9vqf	the only way to fix this is to compile each package, note the failure(s), fix them, recompile, fix the next set of errors, wash, rinse, repeat, go insane
kb9vqf	A lot of other people are steamed as well: http://old.nabble.com/DSO-linking-changes-for-wheezy-td30086040.html
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MutantTurkey	schreiberstein:yo
schreiberstein	MutantTurkey: Hello! :-)
MutantTurkey	what's up?
schreiberstein	did some homework... and booted my amazing archlinux including kde3...
schreiberstein	and you? ;-)
MutantTurkey	wait you have it on kde3 or trinity?
MutantTurkey	and I am just wasting away in class
schreiberstein	trinity
schreiberstein	MutantTurkey: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=97612
schreiberstein	compiz + vmware workstation runs well too
MutantTurkey	yeah that is the older 3.5.12 verison
schreiberstein	yep... but i need a stable one.
MutantTurkey	right
MutantTurkey	3.5.13 is on the way!
schreiberstein	lol
schreiberstein	it was announced since on year if i remember right..
schreiberstein	*or more than one year
MutantTurkey	:|
MutantTurkey	feel free to help
schreiberstein	lol
schreiberstein	i don't have much time for that...
schreiberstein	school.... linux from scratch, programming ;-)
MutantTurkey	school as well
schreiberstein	don't misunderstand me.. i like trinity and the fact that kde3 is working on up to date systems..
schreiberstein	MutantTurkey: in which grade?
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schreiberstein	MutantTurkey: WB!
MutantTurkey	haha
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay so the code you told me to paste in actually makes it crash too, because I commented out the function and it still crashed, then i commented out the function and the printf and it doesn't crash now.
MutantTurkey	so ?
kb9vqf	what was the output?
kb9vqf	I asked you to run it in the termina
kb9vqf	there should have been a series of numbers printed right before the crash
MutantTurkey	nope
MutantTurkey	because the printf function was crashing i wasn't getting anything
kb9vqf	uhh...then you have some serious memory corruption there
MutantTurkey	wait seriously?
MutantTurkey	:|
kb9vqf	try printing each of the requested values on its own line with its own printf statement
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	good call
MutantTurkey	I mean there were warnings when that compiled....
MutantTurkey	ive been doing htis all in gdb
kb9vqf	that's fine
kb9vqf	what were the warnings?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: just like floats cast as doubles etc
kb9vqf	ah
kb9vqf	well, ignore 'em for now
kb9vqf	see which printf crashes
MutantTurkey	okay trying now
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: it seems to go through twice then crash
MutantTurkey	http://pastebin.com/KvrFkPhS
MutantTurkey	weird
kb9vqf	does it always crash before it can print "widget state"?
* kb9vqf may have an idea here
MutantTurkey	it never can print the widget state
MutantTurkey	it always says "(nil)"
MutantTurkey	okay class is over, gotta move downstairs
MutantTurkey	bbs
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: What I mean is that it can't even print the text "widget state"
kb9vqf	before crashing
kb9vqf	I think I know what might be causing that
kb9vqf	poke me when you are bavk
kb9vqf	*back
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: sorry got held up. you said you might have an idea?
kb9vqf	yep
MutantTurkey	ok  I am all ears
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kb9vqf	you will notice that the printf for "widget state" actually has a function as its parameter
kb9vqf	right before that printf put another printf with the parameter of that function and a %p as the format designator
MutantTurkey	so the erro ris the printer state
MutantTurkey	or the widget state rather
kb9vqf	I think the widget state printer might be invalid
kb9vqf	just a hunch
kb9vqf	*pointer
MutantTurkey	489                     printf("widget state: %p\n", GTK_WIDGET_STATE(parent));
MutantTurkey	yes i think it is
MutantTurkey	let me check the warnings
MutantTurkey	http://pastebin.com/9LMDeDzh
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kb9vqf	ah, OK
kb9vqf	I don't have the source in front of me ATK
kb9vqf	ATM
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	I do
kb9vqf	so print out the pointer to parent for me
kb9vqf	before you print out the GTK_WIDGET_STATE(parent) vaule
kb9vqf	*pointer value
kb9vqf	It's probably crashing in GTK_WIDGET_STATE
kb9vqf	but I don't know who provides that macro
MutantTurkey	GTK_WIDGET_STATE is deprecated
MutantTurkey	now there is gtk_get_widget_state which returns the enum GtkWidgetState
kb9vqf	a function instead of a macro?
kb9vqf	sounds good to me :)
MutantTurkey	or GtkStateType i think
kb9vqf	what happens if you replace GTK_WIDGET_STATE with gtk_get_widget_state?
MutantTurkey	well i think it should work...
kb9vqf	or whatever the replacement is?
kb9vqf	try it :)
kb9vqf	remember I can't crash it here
MutantTurkey	because the draw_arrow function returns that enum
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	which is weird
MutantTurkey	but it keeps happening to me and it's reproducable
kb9vqf	I'm on maverick
kb9vqf	it is quite possible that something changed in Natty
MutantTurkey	ah
kb9vqf	in GTK that is
MutantTurkey	forgot my glasses today = can't see anything
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MobileTurkey	yeah that might have just done the trick
MobileTurkey	in fact I am certain it was
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	send a patch to the bug report?
kb9vqf	also, when was the replacement function introduced?
* kb9vqf needs to know so that he doesn't break the Lucid builds
kb9vqf	if it was a few years ago then there won't be any problems :)
kb9vqf	BTW this DSO linking stuff is actually making me link MORE libraries against each executable than Automake would normally :-P
kb9vqf	because there is no way I am going to sit there and guess what libraries are actually needed for each and every linked object
kb9vqf	instead there is a standard set of Qt/kdecode/kdeui/kdefx/kio that I am applying to each failing object
kb9vqf	oh well
kb9vqf	people don't think about all of the consequences when they set policy
MobileTurkey	I mean isn't gtk2 deprecated anyway?
MobileTurkey	since version 2.20
MobileTurkey	march 23 2010
MobileTurkey	was when that was release
kb9vqf	hmm
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	well, I'll try it
MobileTurkey	wawnt me to send a patch?
kb9vqf	it *might* be in lucid
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	please send the patch to the bug report
MobileTurkey	also wasn't bonobo deprecated?
kb9vqf	no idea
kb9vqf	what is it?
MobileTurkey	okay
MobileTurkey	not sure
MobileTurkey	it was part of the gtk/gnome library hell
MobileTurkey	anyway I'll send a patch
kb9vqf	thanks
kb9vqf	there is one nice thing that is now enabled by default
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kb9vqf	building now fails if a reference to temporary is passed :)
kb9vqf	that should help catch any odd little crashing bugs
MobileTurkey	this wifi sucks...
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MobileTurkey	this wifi is terrible....
MobileTurkey	autokicks you every 15 minutes or so
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: also fixing up the other warnings
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: also fixing up the other warnings
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	sounds good
MobileTurkey	I keep seeing this one alot with printf
MobileTurkey	things get formated with a %d but they are doubles
MobileTurkey	but I dont think printf has a way to show doubles as a double
kb9vqf	double needs to be %f
MobileTurkey	isn't a double some sort of floating?
MobileTurkey	okay
MobileTurkey	thanks :)
* kb9vqf would hate to see an ImmobileTurkey :-P
kb9vqf	unless it's Thanksgiving
MobileTurkey	actually, that's the constant joke in my local channel
MobileTurkey	thanksgiving is a time of much ridicule
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	sorry...couldn't resist when you tacked on Mobile instead of Mutant ;-)
MobileTurkey	actually it's cast as a type double (*)(double)
kb9vqf	what line @?
kb9vqf	line # rather
MobileTurkey	so i get: the format &#8216;%f&#8217; expects type &#8216;double&#8217;, but argument 3 has type &#8216;double (*)(double)&#8217;
MobileTurkey	85
MobileTurkey	85
kb9vqf	does %p fix it?
kb9vqf	it sounds like they are trying to print a pointer
MobileTurkey	no idea
MobileTurkey	i get confused with pointers sometimes
kb9vqf	ah
MobileTurkey	fixed
kb9vqf	well, if %f doesn't fix it then try %p :)
kb9vqf	ok
MobileTurkey	I am usually pretty good, but a double (*)(double) just confuses me
kb9vqf	it is a cast from the pointer of type double to another double
MobileTurkey	i figured I am going to fix as many warnings as I can along the way
kb9vqf	and will only work on certain architectures
MobileTurkey	why that is neccesary i don't know
kb9vqf	it was a hack from someone who didn't know about %p probably
kb9vqf	every programmer has gaps in his/her knowledge somewhere
MobileTurkey	yeah
MobileTurkey	anyway fixing up warnings is usually easy and improves quality of code
MobileTurkey	actually, suckless.org is my favorite group of programmers, they are very concise and strict. they treat warnings as errors so none of that crap ever happens
kb9vqf	yeah, would be nice, but it seems that some standards just keep changing, so keeping up with all warnings would require an army of programmers
MobileTurkey	its true
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: uploaded
MobileTurkey	but they are typically not to harsh
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	did you do this from SVN?
kb9vqf	can you run svn diff for me?
kb9vqf	I don't like wholesale replacing files
kb9vqf	because it is hard to tell what changed
MobileTurkey	i did...
MobileTurkey	whoops
MobileTurkey	uploaded file instead of patch :|
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MobileTurkey	lol
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MobileTurkey	okay actually attached kb9vqf
MobileTurkey	okay actually attached kb9vqf
kb9vqf	ah, much better
kb9vqf	BTW there's an echo in here ;-)
Z_God	aahhh, this is crazy
Z_God	suddenly kmozilla doesn't work anymore with
Z_God	can't open the module
Z_God	I reverted all the changed I had made but it still won't work
Z_God	changes*
kb9vqf	huh??
kb9vqf	weird
Z_God	maybe if I wipe my .trinity ?
* kb9vqf has no idea how that would help...
kb9vqf	would be better to debug it now IMHO
kb9vqf	obviously if it can get stuck in this state...then it will to some hapless user in the future :-/
Z_God	ok, I created another user
kb9vqf	*will happen
Z_God	yes, true, maybe it can break itself
Z_God	same problem with another user
Z_God	so it's in my trinity install
Z_God	the only problem, I'm getting no other output than this message
Z_God	konqueror creates this dialog
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kb9vqf	huh
kb9vqf	well, I'm not sure how to debug it :)
Z_God	it links against kgtk2 now I see
kb9vqf	yes
Z_God	I guess that won't just cause smth like this
kb9vqf	no sure
kb9vqf	*not
kb9vqf	you may need to get more information somehow from it
kb9vqf	sorry I can't help much right now
Z_God	yep, indeed I need more info
kb9vqf	my hands are full with the DSO linking changes in oneiric
Z_God	it seems there is a binary incompatibility somehow, but I'm not sure
Z_God	I'll try a full rebuild of kdebindings
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MobileTurkey	this network is freaking terrible. They actually have a ubuntu configuration, but it freaking depends on gnome-keyring for not reason
kb9vqf	Z_God: Now that you mention it the linkage of a library in a folder above the mozilla plugin had to be changed
kb9vqf	so that might explain it
kb9vqf	a full rebuild is always a good idea when the build system changes in any way
Z_God	it seems it doesn't help
Z_God	I just did a complete rebuild
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: okay any other easy bugs for me to hunt down? :P
kb9vqf	look through the bugtracker I guess
MobileTurkey	I was looking at kpdf and converting it to poppler but that is going to be a huge project I think
MobileTurkey	how's oneiric going?
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 535 from NEEDINFO to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=535 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, Gtk apps crash when using kgtk
kb9vqf	slowly
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: This is the kind of nastiness that bad policy decisions make: http://websvn.kde.org/?view=revision&revision=1258263
kb9vqf	even with that scattergun approach to fixing the issue I am sure there are a lot of problems remaining
MobileTurkey	yeah
Z_God	great I found a new trick :)
Z_God	ldd -r
Z_God	I'm getting loads of undefined symbols
kb9vqf	huh
Z_God	things like _ZTI9XPartHost
Z_God	even with a fresh compilation...
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kb9vqf	Z_God: You did setup your environment variables, correct?
Z_God	which ones?
kb9vqf	you mentioned that there were environment variables required for it to find the Mozilla/XULRunner stuff
Z_God	only the ones for running kmozilla
Z_God	yes, those are working, I can run kmozilla manually without problems
kb9vqf	well, here's what that symbol is:
kb9vqf	c++filt _ZTI9XPartHost
kb9vqf	typeinfo for XPartHost
Z_God	but konqueror can't load the kpart
Z_God	because of these missing symbols
Z_God	it seems the compilation broke
kb9vqf	see what you can do to debug it
kb9vqf	i.e. figure out how it should be linked
Z_God	I have no clue about how these symbols and so on are resolved
Z_God	there is a file xparthost_kpart.o
Z_God	I suppose they should be in there
Z_God	nm lists that symbol in there
Z_God	but it seems the lib is not 'linked' with the object?
Z_God	or not built with it
Z_God	I'm not sure how this should work
kb9vqf	sorry...busy with the oneiric DSO problem
Z_God	ok, thanks for checking, it seems at least I'm on the right track
Z_God	I hope I can look at the issue again in the weekend, maybe there'll be a magical fix :)
Z_God	good luck with oneiric, would be great to see a release with it!!
Z_God	I'm off to bed!
Z_God	good night! (day)
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-leguin.freenode.net- [freenode-info] why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
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Xu_R|School	kb9vqf: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/networkmanager-list/2011-October/msg00086.html
Xu_R|School	do you think it would be easier to backport their work?
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rzs19	i just want to say thanks for programming on trinity desktop :)
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: is our broken bluetooth support even in the svn? I am going crazy. i've looked everywhere!
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: From plasma?  With a completely different UI model and missing features?  unlikely.  But, if you are referring to backporting their backend nm-0.9 interface to our knetworkmanager GUI, then yes, that would be a good idea
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 536 filed by chaotickjg@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=536 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, KAudioCreator: Can't name last track
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Raevyn	Hello. So Im curious if anyone was able to get the IM client Kopete to connect to Facebook? I see the newer version can but the one in Trinity is giving me issues but I might be entering something wrong.  Oh also, screenshots are coming later today for the weird graphical glitches in gtk themes
kb9vqf	3.5.12 or 3.5.13?
Raevyn	3.5.12
kb9vqf	ah
kb9vqf	there are some XMPP fixes in 3.5.13
kb9vqf	(3.5.13 isn't released yet, but nightly builds are available)
Raevyn	ohhh.. how would I upgrade?
kb9vqf	there are some instructions on the mailing list
kb9vqf	or you could wait a few weeks for the real release :)
Raevyn	I think I will wait for the real release lol
Raevyn	thank you though!
Raevyn	Im not desperate yet :P
kb9vqf	np
Raevyn	oh well, I was looking at it appears I can just add the ppa to upgrade to 3.5.13?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	both the nightly builds and the nightly build dependencies PPAs (2 PPAs total)
Raevyn	kk ty :)
kb9vqf	np
kb9vqf	oh great, the Wine site was compromised :-X
kb9vqf	If anyone here has anything to do with Wine be aware your password has been stolen
Raevyn	ick.. thats too bad
kb9vqf	fortunately I use a low grade password for FOSS stuff as there is no real harm in an attacker having access to free software ;-)
kb9vqf	*FOSS software
kb9vqf	I'm sure others do too
kb9vqf	with any luck the attacker will realize the database is pretty much worthless and forget about it
Raevyn	Hopefully.. I mean honestly I would think most people using WINE are probably aware of security protocols.. for the majority at least
kb9vqf	except for dumb dumb user that heard about this great new OS called Ubuntu and was told to install Wine
kb9vqf	he/she would get a lesson in security protocol the hard way I think
kb9vqf	some people should just stick with Macs :)
kb9vqf	oh fun...the Bugzilla was compromised too :-X
kb9vqf	Wine bugzilla that is, not ours ;-)
kb9vqf	that is the most likely place for n00bie Linux users to use their banking passwords I would think
kb9vqf	oh well
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: of course I am referring to their backend XD
kb9vqf	well, see what you can do with it :)
kb9vqf	I assume I won't have something midweek?
Xu_R	if I don't have anything thursday, then it's a no-do for me unless a miracle happens D:
kb9vqf	ok
Xu_R	sorry :(
kb9vqf	what do you have so far?
Xu_R	adding all the WiMAX and extra states in...
kb9vqf	so nothing with the scret agent stuff? :(
Xu_R	not really - been scratching my head about how to implement it... but the email about the watcher and secret keys gives something to think about :-\
Xu_R	school is so busy right now - I even have a mandated programming internship coming up in a month that lasts for a year. this is going to be hectic...
kb9vqf	well, on Thursday send me what you have and I guess I'll just have to delay the release
Xu_R	DX I don't want you to delay on my behalf :'( I'll see what I can do...
Xu_R	btw, do you happen to have an API doc for dbus-tqt anywhere?
kb9vqf	Xu_R: No, it's self-documented in the headers
Xu_R	ok
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: o/
MutantTurkey	I've been looking at solid, the hardware qt interface
MutantTurkey	seems pretty legit, but also very closely tied with kde4.
kb9vqf	yep, and we don't want ties with that bloated, shiting piece of garbage
kb9vqf	*shifting
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	but there is always udev, udisks, upower, u whatever.
MutantTurkey	that seems to be shifting as well..
MutantTurkey	sudo apt-get upgrade
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kb9vqf	which is why I have not replaced HAL yet
kb9vqf	and Qt will be slower than upower/udisks/etc.
kb9vqf	it's another layer in between
MutantTurkey	right
MutantTurkey	so you think that ud* is the way to go?
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kb9vqf	yes
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Raevyn	hello again.. okay so, I added the nightly build ppa to my sources list, and the key and did apt-get update. will it now automatically find the updates and load them or do I need to do something else?
Raevyn	I see the updates in the software manager but how can i do a mass upgrade rather than one at a time?
kb9vqf	apt-get dist-upgrade
Raevyn	thanx :)
kb9vqf	np
Raevyn	huh I did that and it claims there is nothing to upgrade or install
kb9vqf	sorry I don't have time right now to troubleshoot further :-/
kb9vqf	check the mailing lust
kb9vqf	*list
kb9vqf	there should be some additional information in the mailing list archive
Raevyn	alright
kb9vqf	I know it works since I run the nightly builds on my laptop :)
Raevyn	i wonder if i did something wrong
kb9vqf	it should just work
kb9vqf	make sure you have the nightly build dependencies and the nightly builds PPA both
* Raevyn nods
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: with this patch i sent, half my apps aren't crashing anymore
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: ping
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I found another deprecated gtk struct in the gtk-qt-engine
MutantTurkey	GtkBoxChild is deprecated
MutantTurkey	qt_theme_draw.c:750:15
MutantTurkey	http://developer.gnome.org/gtk/2.24/GtkBox.html#GtkBoxChild
MutantTurkey	since 2.24
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Where is the patch?>
MutantTurkey	don't have one yet
MutantTurkey	I just found it.
MutantTurkey	I'll send the patch tomorrow after I fix at it
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	look for more while you are at it
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: before you send in the patch
kb9vqf	look for any more deprecated calls
kb9vqf	that might explain the disappearing firefox tabs, etc.
kb9vqf	IMHO if it's borken that much then the old call should be REMOVED from the API entirely, not just left to fester and cause hard-to-trace problems
MutantTurkey	no thats all
MutantTurkey	I used the -DGTK_DISABLE_DEPRECATED
MutantTurkey	it throws errors at anything deprecated
MutantTurkey	as well as -DGDK_DEPRECATED and -D_GDK_PIXBUF_DEPRECATED
kb9vqf	ok good :)
MutantTurkey	yep
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: either way I'll be looking at tha tfirefox problem as well
MutantTurkey	I need to figure how to debug it
MutantTurkey	there is a way to enable debuggin
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	look for #defines
MutantTurkey	yeah
MutantTurkey	I think thats it
MutantTurkey	gtk also has pretty good debugging features
MutantTurkey	so that too
MutantTurkey	either way firefox is really annoying with those tabs :|
kb9vqf	I know there is a problem on Firefox 4
kb9vqf	I am thinking it is actually in Firefox
kb9vqf	something they did
kb9vqf	they are not using GTK, only emulating it IIRC
kb9vqf	or some other nastiness
MutantTurkey	don't they use some internal rendering?
MutantTurkey	with some themeing engine?
MutantTurkey	XUL runner i think
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: what's up with Xu_R and network manager? can I help on that end at all/
kb9vqf	Only if you know DBUS and can fix knetworkmanager to use the new DBUS API that comes with network-manager 0.9
MutantTurkey	I can look at it at the least
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 537 filed by neptunia@mail.ru.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=537 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Update poppler-qt3 to mathch the latest poppler API
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 537 from NEW to NEEDINFO.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=537 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEEDINFO, Update poppler-qt3 to mathch the latest poppler API
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 537 from NEEDINFO to UNCONFIRMED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=537 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, UNCONFIRMED, Update poppler-qt3 to mathch the latest poppler API
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MutantTurkey	duking it out with gtkbox child
MutantTurkey	they seem to have replaced it with a function that returns a linked list...
MutantTurkey	then you have go get the first element from the list
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 538 filed by mutantturkey@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=538 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, gtk-qt-engine contains deprecated components.
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: sent a patch in
kb9vqf	where?
MutantTurkey	bug tracker
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	BTW I finally found the cause of your kdesktop_lock issue
MutantTurkey	I saw the commit
MutantTurkey	what was it?
kb9vqf	it was a little-used codepath that I missed
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	you could probably trigger the problem by locking the screen and closing your laptop's lid
MutantTurkey	never did that though
kb9vqf	only on Intel though as far as I can tell
kb9vqf	that's only one way
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	bug 538
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=538 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, gtk-qt-engine contains deprecated components.
kb9vqf	basically if your BIOS sends a display switch keypress (as many do)
MutantTurkey	in depth report and patch
kb9vqf	ok
MutantTurkey	read it and weep ( or rather shout for joy)
MutantTurkey	I removed bonobo, renamed... well just read the report
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	thanks
MutantTurkey	yep
MutantTurkey	it cleans it up a bit
MutantTurkey	I saw another area that is pretty hackish
kb9vqf	now on to the knetworkmanager stuff?
MutantTurkey	maybe, tmight be another small bug
MutantTurkey	or poorly written area
kb9vqf	ok
MutantTurkey	but yes, knetworkmangaer
kb9vqf	Xu_R: I need what you have at this point for knetworkmanager
kb9vqf	or by end of day today
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: see that patch?
kb9vqf	the one you submitted earlier?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	what about it?
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MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	sorry wifi here is just ridiculous.
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: just found a segvault in ktorrent, gotta check it out also
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MutantTurkey	s
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay now onto knetworkmanager
kb9vqf	sounds good
kb9vqf	implement the secret agent stuff first :)
kb9vqf	try to keep the knetworkmanager internal connection store if the new API will allow it in any way
kb9vqf	this is important for a number of reasons, including security and upgradability
MutantTurkey	1) I know absolutely zero about the internals of knetworkmanager 2) it's freaking huge!
MutantTurkey	I don't even know where to start
kb9vqf	well, a good starting point is the Email Xu_R got back from the network-manager people
MutantTurkey	right
MutantTurkey	I'm rereading it now
MutantTurkey	one thing, do we provide NM.8 now or something?
MutantTurkey	how is it functional if our api is broken
kb9vqf	uhhh...0.8 has worked for quite a while now
kb9vqf	0.9 breaks everything that requires a secret
kb9vqf	possibly more
MutantTurkey	I know
kb9vqf	ok...I don't know what you were trying to ask then :-/
MutantTurkey	let me rephrase
MutantTurkey	when we are communicating to network manager currently, we are still on the 0.8 API
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTurkey	then how is it still working if I have 0.9 installed?
MutantTurkey	:|
kb9vqf	it doesn't
kb9vqf	it shouldn't
kb9vqf	huh
kb9vqf	are you on a password protected network?
kb9vqf	and are you SURE you have the 0.9 API installed?
MutantTurkey	NO AND NO
MutantTurkey	sorry caps
kb9vqf	ok
MutantTurkey	I use a wep key network at home, it works
kb9vqf	on 0.9?
kb9vqf	as in wep works with 0.9/
kb9vqf	?
MutantTurkey	let me see
kb9vqf	if so I wonder if the main problem will be whatever the network-manager people considered "secrets"
* kb9vqf thought a WEP key would be considered that though
MutantTurkey	actually you're right
MutantTurkey	still running 0.8
kb9vqf	ok, thought so
MutantTurkey	right
MutantTurkey	so now I need to get the 0.9 api on natty or whatever
kb9vqf	you can't
kb9vqf	(as far as I know)
* kb9vqf gets the feeling he is going to have to do this :-/
MutantTurkey	sorry :|
MutantTurkey	there is a migration info page
MutantTurkey	http://projects.gnome.org/NetworkManager//developers/api/09/ref-migrating.html
kb9vqf	yes, I linked to it on the bug report
kb9vqf	I can't start until oneiric is building properl
kb9vqf	*properly
kb9vqf	so it will probably be a few weeks before I can even look at it
MutantTurkey	ok good
MutantTurkey	okay at least
MutantTurkey	how is oneiric looking? still storting through build failures?
kb9vqf	oh yes
kb9vqf	as I said weeks
MutantTurkey	right
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Xu_R|School	kb9vqf: dbus-1-tqt is a backport from its KDE4 counterpart, right?
Xu_R|School	so most functions should be the same, give or take a T?
kb9vqf	hmm, not sure
kb9vqf	it is a direct port from dbus-1-qt for Qt3
kb9vqf	but as far as KDE4 is concerned usually stuff was changed quite significantly
kb9vqf	you can check for any similarity by poking through the header files of dbus-1-tqt
Xu_R|School	kb9vqf: ok, thanks
kb9vqf	np
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tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 198 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=198 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, Powermanager
tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Component on bug 205 from non-core programs to ubuntu.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=205 needs packaging, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Some applications need of packaging
* Strangelv cheers
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: ?
Strangelv	"Bug 198, not the new bug
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=198 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, Powermanager
MutantTurkey	i know
MutantTurkey	just kickin out old bugs that aren't valid / need to be closed
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KingSphinx	Whoo, remembered how to get Pidgin to work with IRC. :D Just wish I didn't have to set up a new "account" in Pidgin every time I wanted to add a channel.
KingSphinx	That said though, XChat's still a superior client.
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MutantTurkey	yeah I used to like pidgin
MutantTurkey	it's rather bloaty bloaty though
MutantTurkey	the backend library is good though
Strangelv	++-
Strangelv	+
Strangelv	----------+-
Strangelv	+
Strangelv	Sorra bout that
Strangelv	"Sorry, too
Strangelv	:: tries to put his keyboard in a better location
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devilman1	hello
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devilman1	sorry for my english i speak spanish
devilman1	i use trinity-desktop in my laptop Panasonic Toughbook CF73 with Debian Squeeze
devilman1	i compile and i install xmms in this laptop
devilman1	but xmms don't open
devilman1	in icewm,  xmms work fine
devilman1	I think I found a bug
MutantTurkey	devilman1: ok
MutantTurkey	report the bug at http://bugs.trinitydesktop.org
MutantTurkey	also attempt to launch a bug inside a terminal
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MutantTurkey	ok?
devilman1	ok
MutantTurkey	:)
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 539 filed by compudebian@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=539 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, XMMS don't work in Trinity
devilman1	i put that bug
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* Xu_R rages loudly
* Xu_R 's development VM just died. literally died.
* Xu_R 's having a terrible day... DX
Xu_R	kb9vqf: Any chance MutantTurkey can take a stab at it?
kb9vqf	none
kb9vqf	it's you or mew
Xu_R	because this is literally turning out to be a complete mess right.
kb9vqf	*me
Xu_R	I understand what's going on
Xu_R	except my development VM just died
kb9vqf	drat
kb9vqf	because I *don't* understand and won't be able to learn for a few weeks due to other duties
Xu_R	and then now my computer's screwing up in strange ways... what a terrible day DX
kb9vqf	:-P
Xu_R	XD sounds like my life ._."
Xu_R	I'd really hate if the release was delayed over this :(
kb9vqf	it will be
kb9vqf	it has to be :(
Xu_R	:'(
kb9vqf	see what you can do to fix your compuet
kb9vqf	*computer
Xu_R	trying that right now... but gah, I can't believe this happened
Xu_R	once something bad happens
Xu_R	it all goes on a downward spiral for a while -__-**
kb9vqf	yepo
kb9vqf	*yes
Xu_R	hm. this secret agent adaptor... the header comment:
kb9vqf	been there, done that
Xu_R	"This file was generated by qdbusxml2cpp version 0.7"
kb9vqf	yes, there are network manager XML interface files
kb9vqf	hmmm
kb9vqf	I forgot about that
Xu_R	because they use that to create cpp + h file to call methods
Xu_R	then they make the secretagent file to call... that file and then etc XD
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	problem is I don't know how to make that work without creating a new knetworkmanager-0.9
Xu_R	...
kb9vqf	maybe copy in the XML files from the target system on the fly?
kb9vqf	oh well
Xu_R	not sure that will work >>;
kb9vqf	if need be we can split knetworkmanager into two versions
kb9vqf	just becomes a pain to keep them in sync
Xu_R	could we just have the file sit there, but not be called unless version 0.9?
Xu_R	because AFAIK only the secret agent file calls it...
kb9vqf	maybe
kb9vqf	I don't know
kb9vqf	we'll try it
Xu_R	(but then we'd have to have a bunch of version checking in the file for the #include and then the function calling)
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	get something to me that works, and I'll see if it should just be split or what
Xu_R	will try
* Xu_R wishes he had a punching bag just about now
kb9vqf	just don't use your computer as one... ;-)
Xu_R	XD
Xu_R	hehehehe I think I'll punch the nearest tree xD
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I don't see my firefox tabs acting up
MutantTurkey	anymore
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: definitely not seeing any firefox tabs issues anymore ( and I can't specifically remember how to reproduce it anyhow
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KingSphinx	So the supposed "messiah" of Apple dies, and the world goes nuts. The inventor of C and a part of UNIX died (Dennis Ritchie), and nobody cares. ...what is up with the world?
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Cool!
kb9vqf	thanks for tracing that all down
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	I have another problem still and that is with text boxes on firefox
MutantTurkey	haven't even begun to think about that
kb9vqf	well, keep working on it
kb9vqf	you're doing a good job there
MutantTurkey	gtk is my specialty
MutantTurkey	actually the reason I learned GTK is because it's written in C
MutantTurkey	thats why i am only getting to Qt now
KingSphinx	Is Qt based on C?
MutantTurkey	no
MutantTurkey	Qt is based on C++
KingSphinx	...okay, a C variant. (I was close... >_>; )
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: just fell in love with the crystal window theme
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: they are very different :)
KingSphinx	Isn't Crystal default anyway?
kb9vqf	yes, Crystal is quite nice
MutantTurkey	very configurable
MutantTurkey	I like that.
kb9vqf	on Kubuntu it is the default
MutantTurkey	I think the defaults look terrible tbh
kb9vqf	I know someone who uses it with the lipstik widget theme
MutantTurkey	but I played around with it and it's great
kb9vqf	yes, the defaults DO look terrible :-P
MutantTurkey	:P
kb9vqf	they are the Kubuntu defaults as of Kubuntu 8.10
MutantTurkey	the gradient doesn't work very well
MutantTurkey	well doesnt look nice imho
MutantTurkey	I find plastic to be very nice.
MutantTurkey	I don't know if this is a Qt3 feature, but i've only seen it here and on new macs, is the overlay scrollbar. do you know anything about it?
KingSphinx	Very XP-ish though. :P
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: I love xp:)
MutantTurkey	that was my primary choice for a very very long time.
MutantTurkey	Interestingly enough, I also had a windows ME (the edition that altogether disapeared and failed) that was rock solid for years and years
MutantTurkey	eventually the battery kicked out
KingSphinx	Vista may have been quite a shock to the system, but I admit, Aero is very nice. I'm not a huge fan of XP's "Fisher-Price" default look, but the version of Luna in Media Center Edition ("Energy Blue") is nice.
MutantTurkey	vista is more of a fail then ME
MutantTurkey	frankly vista was just a whole heap of crap
MutantTurkey	and while windows 7 works, (and well at that) it is very bloated
MutantTurkey	1.6 gigs just to boot my desktop? cmon
KingSphinx	That's the fault of having people who insist that Windows work with legacy crap from 1995. :P
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: not entirely
MutantTurkey	it also happens to be because at microsoft dev centers they get new computers every year, with the highest componets to do dev work on
KingSphinx	But wow, 1.6 GB just to idle? I'm gonna need more RAM if I want to use 7 comfortably...
MutantTurkey	so basically they can bloat it up, don't notice. then consumers get f'd
MutantTurkey	that is part of it, the legacy crap
KingSphinx	(2.5GB RAM here on my computer)
MutantTurkey	4 gigs on this baby, 2 on my other, never used more than 1 on either..
MutantTurkey	I just use tmpfs's and caches alot so its handy
MutantTurkey	firefox cache -> tmpfs was the greatest thing ever
KingSphinx	For some reason, Trinity 3.5.12 always reported using a LOT of cache memory. Should I have worried about that?
KingSphinx	Like, 2 GB of RAM would be reported in cache
MutantTurkey	cache is okay
MutantTurkey	it's actually free
KingSphinx	Ah
MutantTurkey	well it contains stuff, but if the system needs it, they just throw out the old stuff
kb9vqf	basically Trinity is using the spare memory to speed things up instead of letting it sit idle (and therefore wasted)
kb9vqf	it doesn't NEED that memory to function
MutantTurkey	that is linux (not trinity)
kb9vqf	i.e. it won't be paged out
KingSphinx	So... a bit like Windows, but in a non-bloaty way?
MutantTurkey	windows = bloat
MutantTurkey	linux = non bloaty
kb9vqf	Windows pages all that memory out to swap
kb9vqf	it needs it unfortunately
kb9vqf	Linux won't
kb9vqf	Windows doesn't report its cache usage IIRC
MutantTurkey	I hate swap :| (knows he always gets crap for sayng it, but I do)
kb9vqf	(well, not as "used RAM" anyway)
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: honestly my desktop is always on and it's ram is "full" with cache, which is awesome because unused ram = waste of space
KingSphinx	Well, at least there's one thing to look forward to tomorrow: Ubuntu 11.10 comes out :D
KingSphinx	Though sometimes I kinda wish there were a rolling-release version of Ubuntu
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	according to the release schedule I thought it was the 24th
kb9vqf	oh well
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: I hate the upgrades, something always seems to go wrong
kb9vqf	another missed release :((
KingSphinx	?
KingSphinx	there's not going to be Oneiric binaries?
MutantTurkey	its the 24th
MutantTurkey	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricReleaseSchedule
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: you must be mistaken
KingSphinx	No, it says "October 13th"...
KingSphinx	that's Week 24
MutantTurkey	holy guacamole you're right
KingSphinx	Is that bad or good that it releases tomorrow?
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: we are still working through the process of building on oneiric because we thought we had a week or so
KingSphinx	Lol, that's okay, I honestly was expecting a delay of about that much.
tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 129 from NEW to RESOLVED INVALID.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=129 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED INVALID, Installation fails on VirtualBox
Qu4Z	I know I'm way past the discussion, but: Plastik is OK, just a bit big and rounded, somehow
Qu4Z	And windows does report cache separately from actual memory these days (Win7, at least. I think you can get the info in XP, but not so easily)
MutantTurkey	Qu4Z: :P
MutantTurkey	Plastik is OK, good enough for me. I'm not to picky :P
Qu4Z	Yeah :) I can't remember what I usually use. Which is to say, I can't remember what it's called, and I'm on Windows at work
MutantTurkey	Windows, I only use it to play age of empires :P
Qu4Z	I really should get TDE running on my computer at home again.
Qu4Z	Yeah, I play Age of Visual Studio. It's not nearly as good. :/
MutantTurkey	lol
MutantTurkey	Visual studio...
Qu4Z	Yeah, lol
MutantTurkey	lol is rigt
Xu_R	woah. oneric is out today (it's 12:05 AM lolol)
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: it's 11:57
Xu_R	kb9vqf: still trying to recover, having a bit of luck for once (XD)
Xu_R	oh... my clocks say 1205 >>;
MutantTurkey	12:05 it is... dang
Xu_R	XD
MutantTurkey	well I did just glance at my old kitchen clock
Xu_R	:P
MutantTurkey	that things been running on the same AA's since i moved here..
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: yeah, we didn't know it was released tomorrow until a bit ago
Xu_R	yea, I didn't know either >>;
Xu_R	I even installed an oneric daily build LOL
Xu_R	(sadly, i think they missed a bug in the installer ._.)
MutantTurkey	they always do.
Xu_R	xD
MutantTurkey	i hate upgrades
Xu_R	well, my dev vm decided to die, so I'm trying to recover it to this vm right now...
Xu_R	and then I'm trying to figure out how to make all this NM0.9 stuff not break 0.8 stuff >>;
Xu_R	hmm...
* Xu_R is way too squeezed on time right now
* Xu_R is actually impressed with the new Unity desktop - much better than predecessor. But still needs more customization options
MutantTurkey	blech
MutantTurkey	it's disgusting
MutantTurkey	frankly ubuntu is disgusting
MutantTurkey	they are using the FOSS community for their own purpose
MutantTurkey	they fail to mention that it's even GNU/Linux...
MutantTurkey	like wth
Xu_R	true... ._.
MutantTurkey	they pretend they did it all, from libreoffice, to gimp, everything
MutantTurkey	"the Ubuntu Operating System"
MutantTurkey	i call BS
MutantTurkey	</rant>
Xu_R	XD
Xu_R	anyway, late
Xu_R	night
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MutantTurkey	meh. I gotta sleep too. more debugging tomorrow.
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 540 filed by glogow@fbihome.de.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=540 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, aKregator - missing private library in Lucid package from daily build.
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Mias	yummy http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/Serenity?action=content&content=35954&PHPSESSID=353176c95a75ba35a52bb8d74939b46d
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 540 from NEW to RESOLVED INVALID.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=540 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED INVALID, aKregator - missing private library in Lucid package from daily build.
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Edogaa	so, how is  trinity on  ubuntu 11.10 or 11.04? how does it work with pulse audio
Edogaa	i just tried ubuntu right now tbh never installed it before but i used kde4 tons
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DexterF	hi
DexterF	kopete won't connect to gtalk anymore.... anyone else got this?
kb9vqf	on 3.5.12 or on the nightly builds?  If gtalk uses XMPP then there is a fix in SVN already
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DexterF	kb9vqf: 3.5.12
DexterF	gtalk is xmpp, yes
DexterF	aka jabber
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	there has been a fix in SVN for some time
kb9vqf	we are still working towards an early November release of 3.5.13
kb9vqf	trying to smash as many bugs as we can first :)
Edogaa	>.>
kb9vqf	Edogaa: Trinity builds and runs perfecly on Natty; Oneiric is still in progress and there is an issue with the network-manager
kb9vqf	hopefully that problem will be resolved before the release
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Edogaa	still in progress?
Edogaa	it was released today
Edogaa	but yeah, I see.
kb9vqf	well, we don't have the resources of Canonical ;-)
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kb9vqf	and we prefer to release as bug-free as possible, whereas Canonical always releases with bugs
Edogaa	xD Uh.
Edogaa	wait.. i mean, Ah.
kb9vqf	This development cycle was also longer than normal, to allow us to fully absorb Qt3 and related bindings
kb9vqf	(which was NOT a trivial task)
Edogaa	i see, i see.
kb9vqf	so we're actually on target for a release late in 2011 :)
kb9vqf	much changed in Linux as well since 3.5.12 was released :-P
kb9vqf	some good, some bad
Edogaa	what bad? D:
kb9vqf	well for starters, network-manager decided their API needed a completel overhaul
kb9vqf	they think it's a good idea to store passwords for connections in a central system-wide database :-P
kb9vqf	Ubuntu decided to prevent autolinking of libraries (thus actually bloating large applications and making maintinance a nightmare)
kb9vqf	etc, etc.
kb9vqf	on the plus side though the kernel itself is as stable as I have ever seen it, and FAST too!
kb9vqf	noveau is actually approaching usability, etc.
kb9vqf	so more good than bad over the past year in the core system IMHO
DexterF	kb9vqf: .13 still a kde3 release then or trinity rather? in terms of: own doce under the hood
kb9vqf	?
Edogaa	how's pulse with kde3 btw?
kb9vqf	works great
kb9vqf	DexterF: We 'own' all Trinity versions from 3.5.11 onwards
kb9vqf	KDE e.V. has not released KDE3 since 3.5.10
kb9vqf	Trinity will not be radically altering the general form of KDE3--we aim to improve it, not replace it ;-)
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Status report please :)
DexterF	kb9vqf: there was the idea once to rewrite from scratch wasnt it?
kb9vqf	never from me...
kb9vqf	that was the KDE4 decision
kb9vqf	and we all know what they ended up with :-P
Edogaa	Eh...kde4 isn't so bad :/ it's just not kde3 lol
kb9vqf	It's good for some workloads and bad for others
DexterF	even torvalds prefers xfce over gnome3/kde4
kb9vqf	just like Trinity, Gnome, and all other desktops
DexterF	kb9vqf: does torvalds know about trinity btw?
kb9vqf	no idea
* kb9vqf wonders now
DexterF	the way he rants how new DEs instill idiocy in users he one should point it out to him.. who knows, maybe there's a uber banner carrier in for trinity :)
kb9vqf	hehe, possibly!
kb9vqf	I'd wait for our next release before mentioning it though
kb9vqf	3.5.13 that is
kb9vqf	it's almost here and carries a lot of internal improvements and bugfixes
Edogaa	hmm
DexterF	good to hear. glad the project lives.
DexterF	still, what can I do about gtalk right niw? I really need to talk to some people :P
kb9vqf	hmmm
Edogaa	I wonder , will there be some interface improvements?
kb9vqf	you could theoretically cherry pick the fix from our patch list
kb9vqf	Edogaa: Like what?
kb9vqf	there is a brand new XRandR tool :)
kb9vqf	and some other things
kb9vqf	but we are not going to be going down the KDE4 route
kb9vqf	the basic interface itself is pretty much static
Edogaa	i don't know, i mean in some areas, like with whatever you guys use system settings. I don't recall feeling to comfortabel with it when i was trying it on debian stable through a vm
Edogaa	but keeping everything about the same :/
kb9vqf	we use kcontrol mostly
Edogaa	right, that.
kb9vqf	hey, we like it :)
Edogaa	ah
kb9vqf	I always feel lost on the KDE4 equivalent
Edogaa	Eh, I guess it's becsause I've been using the KDE4 and XFCE equivalent to modifying settings
kb9vqf	although if you can put on paper some of the issues you feel exist we are open to discussing them
kb9vqf	we won
Edogaa	xD
kb9vqf	we won't shoot down new ideas like KDE4 does ;-)
kb9vqf	The only semi-permanent rule is that burying settings in layers and layers of subwindows is a Bad Idea
kb9vqf	the user should always know exactly where he or she is
kb9vqf	and I know there is code in Trinity that violates that principle, and it should be fixed sometime :-P
Edogaa	okay, here's my super new idea...we rewrite all of trinity into trinity 2, and unify everything into some complex and limiting architecture
Edogaa	PERFECT IDEA ;D
kb9vqf	:-P
kb9vqf	I should have said *automatically* shoot down new ideas ;-)
Edogaa	XD
kb9vqf	the trinity-devel mailing list is a good place to bring up potential user interface improvements
Edogaa	btw, do you guys mess around with the qt3 toolkit? I Mean actually improving the code wise :/ I don't know how all that works and whether qt3 is being maintained at all or rather...well iobviously it can compile otherwise this project wouldn't exist but i think you know what i mean :/
Edogaa	also, how do qt4 and qt3 apps work together
Edogaa	no conflicts?
MutantTurkey	DexterF: tovalds is a great man, but frankly I don't think he knows to much about GUI's...
MutantTurkey	when it comes to that is preference
MutantTurkey	(sorry way late on the response)
DexterF	MutantTurkey: hey, as long as he thinks like me I#m all for him carrying my flag :)
MutantTurkey	Edogaa: also the xfce settings manager is stinky
DexterF	MutantTurkey: how so?
MutantTurkey	I belive that they use a single application for it, and so it is not dynamic
MutantTurkey	in trinity and kde4 we load a module for each settings
MutantTurkey	so that way a 3rd party could use our kcontrol and easily add it
Edogaa	ah
MutantTurkey	trinity, configurable and dynamic! :D
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I am becoming a master debugger
MutantTurkey	I seriously love ibm, they have some really good documentation and guides online
MutantTurkey	and they make superior thinkpad laptops :)
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DexterF	kb9vqf: so - I guess I could just compile kopete?
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 541 filed by plaws@ou.edu.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=541 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, print wizard missing drivers, postscript
DexterF	kb9vqf: funny tho: my other xmpp acc (gmx.de) is online
kb9vqf	it depends on the server version
kb9vqf	there is a new XMPP command
kb9vqf	(protocol command)
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: think I found a minor bug
MutantTurkey	probably related to some auto conversion to Tqt
MutantTurkey	because there is a string in ktorrent labled "tqStatus:"
MutantTurkey	I assume it got caught by one of your macros
kb9vqf	busy with oneiric and related problems -- file a bug report
MutantTurkey	yep
MutantTurkey	will do, and i'll attach a patch
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: Status report?
Xu_R	kb9vqf: downloaded fresh copy of knetworkmanager + the kde4 backend of networkmanager and starting to work
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	good luck
Xu_R	ty
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kb9vqf	Seems Ilya helped us indirectly: https://build.opensuse.org/package/view_file?file=gcc46-fix.patch&package=kde3-amarok&project=KDE%3AKDE3&srcmd5=a31cb15c7d7ebdbb4ad3a081297f0c0a
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	though I really wish he'd submit patches upstream to us directly :(
Z_God	I understand he's not considering trinity to be upstream for him
Z_God	I'm not really sure why
kb9vqf	he want to use his stanant and obsolete version because he considers the number of packages available as the primary metric of success
kb9vqf	so it is leading to duplication of effort between his variant of KDE3.5.10 and the Trinity project on matters of compilation/linking
Xu_R	he's also managed to piss off a few factory devs, so that's not good.
kb9vqf	my opinion is that Trinity is a desktop--if it has a great version of some app then by all means include and maintain it (e.g. Amarok) but otherwise let better apps (OpenShot, etc.) take over
kb9vqf	and keep Trinity compilable with the latest UNMODIFIED upstream sources :)
kb9vqf	yes it causes headaches here, but some of the upstream decisions are really for the best
kb9vqf	oh well
kb9vqf	my only concern is that "KDE3" will get a bad name from his stagnant buggy repository
kb9vqf	it adds more pressure to get rid of all mention of KDE3 with this project
kb9vqf	which isn't a bad thing I suppose
Z_God	you mean there are more apps in suse's kde3?
kb9vqf	AFAIK yes, but most of them are not useful or have far better GTK equivalents
Z_God	I wonder what kind of packages
kb9vqf	not sure--last I checked they tend to be small apps such as irc clients
kb9vqf	(how many of those do we REALLY need anyway? ;-))
Z_God	but can't those just as easily be compiled against trinity's kdelibs?
kb9vqf	not sure, and as Trinity diverges from KDE3.5.10 the chances go down
kb9vqf	of course they could be modified, but it is like being pecked to death by old ducks
kb9vqf	It would be interesting once we move to GIT to add a community software area
Z_God	but are there really big source incompatibilities?
kb9vqf	I wouldn't expect so
Z_God	me neither, I'd be surprised really then
kb9vqf	I just can't take on more packages into the core distribution
kb9vqf	the core must be fully compilable for a release
Z_God	sure, but suse could easily use trinity as it's base for kde3
Z_God	and compile the extra apps they have against it
kb9vqf	Ilya claims "no" because of "missing extra apps"
kb9vqf	I know :-P
kb9vqf	I really don't know why he does not
Z_God	I see
kb9vqf	your solution actually makes sense
Z_God	but then the question would be really "why he does he expect those apps to be part of trinity core?"
kb9vqf	yeah
Xu_R	one thing I don't like is that when they said they would include KDE3 back in, he just used 2008 specs (WITH UNSERMAKE?!) and tried to submit them back ._."
kb9vqf	and I'm using "core" losely
kb9vqf	*loosely
Z_God	yep, I understand
Z_God	there is even more in there than there was in the official KDE 3
Z_God	I think
kb9vqf	"core" to me here is meaning any app with no direct 1:1 feature set replacement in GTK/KDE4
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	and a lot of then are junk honestly
kb9vqf	personally I'd like to encourage a rolling-release (no version numbers) community applicatoin repostory where that kind of stuff can get dumped with no distro packaging required
kb9vqf	if they breakm they break
kb9vqf	if they break, they break
* kb9vqf can't type
kb9vqf	and no binary builds from the official Trinity project
kb9vqf	for that repository
Z_God	what kind of apps do you imagine in there?
kb9vqf	500 different IRC clients :)
kb9vqf	seriously though, old stuff that has already been replaced
kb9vqf	with better GTK variants
kb9vqf	it's there to satisfy people like Ilya
Z_God	I can imagine it's not always trivial to know/find replacements though
Xu_R	feel free to look: https://build.opensuse.org/project/packages?project=KDE%3AKDE3
Z_God	I'm a heavy user of kwordquiz for example
Z_God	and I'm glad it's part of trinity, but I can imagine not that many people use it intensively
kb9vqf	and I suppose if someone really liked an app in there then they could take it over, polish it up, bring it up to modern standards, and get it included in the main distribution
kb9vqf	that's my thought anyway
kb9vqf	this really is not all that different than Ubuntu's model of main and multiverse software
kb9vqf	main is expected to compile, receive updates, etc.
kb9vqf	multiverse stuff can go away at any time
Z_God	ah yep
kb9vqf	now imagine if all the devs had to keep multiverse up to the standards of main
kb9vqf	Ubuntu would still be in text mode :)
kb9vqf	that's where the Trinity project is at, and why we didn't take on all those extra apps
kb9vqf	after 3.5.13 is released some serious thought should go into the aging Trinity application ecosystem
kb9vqf	(i.e. the apps available for 3.5.10 and not Trinity)
kb9vqf	*not in Trinity yet
Z_God	I'm not aware of loads
Z_God	I guess there are bugs with more info on that?
kb9vqf	no not really
Z_God	and the main issue is just packaging it?
kb9vqf	I mean there are a few bug reports
kb9vqf	yes,and bringing it up to compilability with modern libraries
kb9vqf	without hacks
Z_God	but is that really needed?
kb9vqf	if it is in the main distribution, yes
Z_God	I imagine that some core things needed updating
Z_God	but I wouldn't expect many apps to need changes
kb9vqf	it really depends
kb9vqf	there are a lot of hackish fringe apps
kb9vqf	that pull in weird libraries, etc.
kb9vqf	I would expect most apps to need updates for gcc4.4, 4.5, and 4.6
Z_God	hmm ok
kb9vqf	and then the linker changes that have also happend
kb9vqf	(neither of those are the result of changes the Trinity project made BTW)
Z_God	yep, I understand
kb9vqf	ok :)
Z_God	I didn't realize that gcc changed so much
kb9vqf	it became more strict
Z_God	but I indeed had to add headers and so on sometimes as well
kb9vqf	yes
Z_God	btw, what do you use for development now?
kb9vqf	gcc4.6 is what I am fighting with ATM
kb9vqf	I am seriously contemplating adding the community software branch to GIT though; then Ilya can stuff as much in there as he wants
Z_God	I unfortuntately have a very limited connection at home (I can only download 10GB per month)
Z_God	but now I'm at my parents for the weekend
kb9vqf	and we don't have to maintain or package any of it :)
kb9vqf	ok
Z_God	so I can set up a proper VM
Z_God	it seems my maverick vm broke
kb9vqf	oh fun
Z_God	should I install oneric & use the current nightlies?
Z_God	I think it would be perfect indeed if there would be a git branch for ilya to play with
kb9vqf	use natty unless you are satisifed with only the kde* modules and Amarok installing ATM
Z_God	I just like a snapshot so I can continue playing with kmozilla
kb9vqf	lots of build problems to work through yet
kb9vqf	use Natty
Z_God	ok :)
kb9vqf	Oneric won't be ready for a few weeks
kb9vqf	Ubuntu changed the linker and it's a bit of a mess
kb9vqf	lots of manual changes needed
Z_God	you think the changes have some advantages?
Z_God	aren't other DEs also affected?
kb9vqf	yes they were affected but Ubuntu patched them itself
kb9vqf	AFAIK
kb9vqf	and no, these particular changes have no advantage other than working around a limitation in binutils-gold
kb9vqf	there is some heated discussion about it online
Z_God	it seems crazy when they have to patch so many things themselves
kb9vqf	(no, I'm not involved in the discussions :)
Z_God	I wonder if it would be easier to focus on LTS versions
Z_God	but there is always a risk that would be just piling up work
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	and this development cycle was crazy anyway for us
kb9vqf	we absorbed Qt3 almost entirely
kb9vqf	so we got somewhat behind as a result
Z_God	qt3 needed so many fixes?
kb9vqf	just a lot of work bringing it in along with all of its dependencies
kb9vqf	renaming things
kb9vqf	pulling the Qt3 modules out of upstream projects
kb9vqf	etc.
Z_God	ok
Z_God	there hasn't been any response yet to that qt5 feature request I made btw
kb9vqf	you won't get one
Z_God	if qt5 would be at least performing properly, I think it would be neat if TQt would enable a relatively quick Qt5 port
kb9vqf	only if they provide all of the methods needed for a desktop
Z_God	then it will stay open in their tracker forever
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	they are pretty much committed to the mobile phone path
Z_God	maybe it would be interesting to contact Opera some time
Z_God	and maybe other companies heavily depending on desktop Qt
kb9vqf	browsers don't really use "real" desktop methods
Z_God	but they have the same performance issue at least
kb9vqf	The best way to put this is that Qt4 is application oriented, and Qt3 could actually be used to create a desktop environment
kb9vqf	different goals, different APIs
kb9vqf	I say choose your battles wisely
kb9vqf	Trinity still outperforms anything else out there by a wide margin, would Qt4/Qt5/Qt6 really gain you anything?
kb9vqf	(execpt XFCE or other ultra-lightweight desktops)
Z_God	it would drop the need to maintain qt at some point
Z_God	and it would enable better integration
Z_God	which toolkit would you recommend a new desktop application developer to learn now?
kb9vqf	GTK or Qt4
kb9vqf	depending on the complexity of the app
kb9vqf	for more complex apps GTK
kb9vqf	and we have pretty darn good GTK integration already :)
kb9vqf	BTW if we're not maintaining Qt then we'd be maintaining the Qt interface and having to jump at each Qt API change
kb9vqf	that is far more work, trust me
Z_God	you think there will also be Qt4 integration like the GTK integration?
Z_God	these integration things also appear as hacks to me sometimes
Z_God	but if it will be trivial to have such integration modules for common toolkits, I indeed don't see a problem
kb9vqf	once we are off the Qt namespace as mentioned earlier, then yes we will have Qt4 integration
Z_God	ok, but still I wonder how easy/hard it will be to implement
kb9vqf	much easier than trying to deal with upstream Qt
Z_God	I think getting GTK to works stably took some effort as well
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	I put in some of that effort so I can make a valid comparison
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	Qt4 is much more work
Z_God	ok
Z_God	I think the GTK stuff will be cool to see in kmozilla :)
kb9vqf	yes
Z_God	I'm kinda curious how the end result would be
kb9vqf	I think most people want Qt4 because it has a higher version number
kb9vqf	they don't understand the fundamental differences
Z_God	you mean for trinity?
* kb9vqf really wishes that projects would just RENAME THINGS when they come out with a completely different version of something that only generally resembles the original
kb9vqf	no, in general
Z_God	because as an app developer, I'd want qt4 because I can get support for it
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	I'll go with that
kb9vqf	so you probably have no problem using SystemC and developing stuff for iPhones, right
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	or some other limited development environment
* kb9vqf is playing devils advocate a bit
Z_God	personally, I do not see a big future for closed source software
kb9vqf	I realize there are no real good alternatives, but I would go with GTK given the choice of Qt4 or GTK for a large app
kb9vqf	I would vastly prefer Qt3
Z_God	but if I would be working for a software company and they'd ask me what toolkit to use, I would advice them Qt4 because there is commercial support available when things do not work as they should
Z_God	but it would be for both free and unfree software
kb9vqf	and I wouldn't buy their products because a.) they will be slower than native Linux apps and b.) Qt4 tends to break ransoml
kb9vqf	*randomly
Z_God	I don't know much about the options for GTK
kb9vqf	unless there was literally no other choice (Wine apps included!)
Z_God	but what about things like Google Earth?
kb9vqf	don't use it personally, so can't comment
kb9vqf	I know Qt3 is a dead end
Z_God	yep, same here, but in most cases people would develop something that doesn't exist yet I'd say ;)
kb9vqf	for new apps
kb9vqf	but Qt4 is not a viable alternative in my opinion
kb9vqf	there is no really good toolkit out there right now
kb9vqf	until this tablet craze dies down I don't expect one to emerge either
kb9vqf	Microsoft had an amazing opportunity here to steal back desktop users, but instead they are blinded by the same craze :-P
Z_God	well, Qt3 is good technically I guess, but when it comes to maintenance and support, there is not as much available anymore as for qt4
kb9vqf	I agree
kb9vqf	but if it is just absorbed as a backend library for Trinity who cares really about support?
kb9vqf	new apps should be developed for GTK or similar
kb9vqf	until a better toolkit comes along
Z_God	what I suspect is that future hardware may have better performance with a toolkit like qt5
kb9vqf	on Xorg? Unlikely
Z_God	because of how it will be optimized for GPUs
kb9vqf	that optimization is in Xorg, not Qt
kb9vqf	or put another way: Qt4 is simply hacking around Xorg (remember the nasty bypass hack?)
Z_God	ok, I don't know much about that
Z_God	yes
kb9vqf	that is not good, it won't work on a network well at all, it causes problems with windows, etc.
kb9vqf	just a complete mess
kb9vqf	but it works great for phones where you only have a few windows open
kb9vqf	or if you don't use any Xorg stuff
Z_God	I have the impression that the traditional ways of X11 will be replaced with smth with OpenGL
kb9vqf	I don't know, I'm just a bit frustrated with where everything is going lately
kb9vqf	oh yuck
Z_God	but somehow keeping X11's networking
kb9vqf	I don't know how you could even do that :-P
Z_God	but I also have many performance issues with remote X11 and non-Qt3 stuff
kb9vqf	OpenGL is a monstrosity
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	see? :)
Z_God	so yep, I don't see it working yet
Z_God	I know people are working on this stuff though
Z_God	networking OpenGL and so on
Z_God	but with the high GPU interaction...
Z_God	it doesn't seem to fit in the X11 model anymore
Z_God	I still believe that X11's network tranparancy is a very important thing though
Z_God	I wouldn't want to scarifice that just like that
kb9vqf	me either, but that is what will be done
kb9vqf	just so you can have smooth bouncing icons obscuring your workspace :-P
kb9vqf	this generation really is full of idiots
kb9vqf	I didn't want to believe it at first, but it seems that if it isn't exciting enough like their morning cartoons then it is "outdated" and "old" and "boring"
Z_God	I don't know much about it, I didn't spend much time with it
kb9vqf	/rant
kb9vqf	I find all that junk very distracting
Z_God	some of the effects seem funny, I don't really feel like spending much time on setting such stuff up though if it's not there already or if it's not stable
kb9vqf	well, just remember that while that effect is playing you are sitting in front of a computer growing fatter, wrecking your eyes, and being completely unproductive :-P
kb9vqf	personally it is the stupidest thing I have ever heard of
kb9vqf	if you want effects, go to a movie!
Z_God	I waste time on my comp anyhow watching enough stupid stuff ;)
kb9vqf	I know, as do most people
kb9vqf	but this way they waste time while claiming to be "working"
kb9vqf	and actually thinking they *are* working
Z_God	well yeah when the effects are so and people are assuming it's just necessary to be like that
Z_God	slow*
Z_God	because they don't know better
kb9vqf	and they will never know better
kb9vqf	*sigh*
Z_God	when we had our programming class at uni, I remember one group wanted a cool loading screen for their program
Z_God	but what we had to write was really trivial, so it just popped up instantly
Z_God	but they had a loading screen ;)
kb9vqf	I hate that
Z_God	which was just doing random stuff and displaying a loading effect
kb9vqf	I don't use programs over things like that
Z_God	it was hilarious then
kb9vqf	well, yes, as it should be :)
Z_God	but it seems to become serious indeed
Z_God	I know some systems use effects in a smart way
kb9vqf	even Trinity does
kb9vqf	everything I hover over becomes highlighted
kb9vqf	it is a feedback mechanism
Z_God	but also with loading I mean
kb9vqf	yes, that too
Z_God	in Ukraine they use a chipcard system for the metro
kb9vqf	openoffice and friends
Z_God	at least in Kharkov
Z_God	when you put your card in the device, it takes a moment to read the card
Z_God	but this is done with a sliding animation
kb9vqf	yes, and there it makes sense
Z_God	so it seems to slide the info on the screen immediately when you put the card in
kb9vqf	same thing with Trinity's smartcard authentication
Z_God	but it's actually reading it then, sometime the slide is a bit slower
kb9vqf	but that is just keeping the user in the driver's seat so to speak
kb9vqf	he/she knows exactly what is happening
kb9vqf	not wondering "is this thing on?"
Z_God	yep, and that also looks neat
kb9vqf	so tell me this: If graphical stuff is all the rage right now in FOSS, why don't we have a decent CAD program yet?
Z_God	I think design != eyecandy ;)
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	eyecandy is just that: candy
kb9vqf	bad for the brain
kb9vqf	on the developer's end as well
kb9vqf	actually I would like to run a study
Z_God	at least too much of it yes
kb9vqf	my theory is that eyecandy enabled devices encourage hyperactivity ala ADHD
Z_God	even when the animations make the whole system "calmer"? ;)
kb9vqf	rather than the brain idiling while it waits (or better yet doing something else like looking around) it is constantly engaged by the flashy animation on the screen
kb9vqf	of course it depends
Z_God	but when you have to wait less
kb9vqf	but I have never seen "calmer" animations
Z_God	because there is less candy to wait for
Z_God	you also idle less
kb9vqf	yes, but then your work is done faster
Z_God	and you get more work to do
kb9vqf	so we should be using pencils and paper?
kb9vqf	:)
Z_God	in some situations, using tricks to people relax a tiny bit regularly, might also be good
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kb9vqf	it also discourages responsibility from the individual--the individual learns to relax only when told
Z_God	but overall studies suggest that this eyecandy does not improve productivity though
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	and I suspect it has a deeper effect in hyperactivity
kb9vqf	the brain does not take kindly to rapid idle/productive/idle cycling
Z_God	ok, that makes sense yes
MutantTurkey	"studies suggest"
kb9vqf	haven't you ever been frustrated by a computer taking too long to catch up to what you are wanting to do
kb9vqf	?
Z_God	I'm not frustrated too quickly luckily :)
MutantTurkey	I concur. actually eye candy just distracts you.
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTurkey	my theory is that things need to be smooth.
kb9vqf	and the brain is a bit odd
kb9vqf	it has multiple "networks"
kb9vqf	only one is actually active at a time
MutantTurkey	less = more
kb9vqf	so switching tasks (e.g. from work to Facebook) actually uses a lot of resources
kb9vqf	think of it as a CPU with a very expensive context switch operation :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: we cannot truely multitask (or so they say)
kb9vqf	exactly
MutantTurkey	typically I agree
kb9vqf	you can't
kb9vqf	but your mind is the measurement device, so you have no idea of the impact of the "context switch"
kb9vqf	until you look at a clock and realize how much time you have wasted
Z_God	in my case, I'm not able to certain things for a long period of time though
kb9vqf	there is also fatigue and burnout
Z_God	it works better for me when I spend a bit of attention on them, then do smth else, then get back to them
kb9vqf	you don't want to do the same thing for hours on end any more than you want to be interrupted every two seconds for half a second
kb9vqf	correct
Z_God	like studying words
kb9vqf	and that is what I was saying above (albiet badly)
kb9vqf	the faster you can complete a task, the faster you can take a *real* break
kb9vqf	one that allows the brain to reset
Z_God	yes, I don't think I would want to wait, just to be able to see some smooth animation
kb9vqf	and yet that is exactly what the average user wants
kb9vqf	why?
kb9vqf	I think I know :)
kb9vqf	because using a computer is like a game to them
Z_God	or to impress people maybe
kb9vqf	they don't really do any hard work on it
Z_God	it's like having a shiny car
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	a shiny car with a loud engine
kb9vqf	not very practical
Z_God	but I never had people ask me specifically for this actually
MutantTurkey	someone just asked me how ritchie was more significant than jobs... sigh
Z_God	even though I set up quite a few people with Trinity
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: shiny car, oud engine
MutantTurkey	that is why petty consume laptops are flashy
kb9vqf	shiny sports car
Z_God	hehe
MutantTurkey	that is why facebook gets redesigned every week
Z_God	I hate it, I can't use it anymore
kb9vqf	now take your sports car to the grocery store
kb9vqf	it might take two trips ;-)
MutantTurkey	now my state of the art, top of the line, business grade laptop (yes I am gloating, I think i am allowed after 4 years on an atom)
Z_God	and I know other people also have difficulty with facebook due to that
MutantTurkey	Z_God: yeah.  I avoid it mostly
MutantTurkey	I just quit twitter though, so i need some new form of outlet.
Z_God	I have facebook set up to mail & jabber everything to me
Z_God	but facebook is often broken :S
kb9vqf	I don't agree with the Facebook TOS so I don't use it :))
Z_God	I like Google+ because it just uses mail & jabber and doesn't try to reinvent anything new
kb9vqf	anyway I think some serious scientific studies would back up projects like this one and their GUI methodology
kb9vqf	but they will never be "popular"
Z_God	I think Trinity should aim at developers
kb9vqf	sort of like a recording studio versus a cheap $5 walkman clone
Z_God	and the next release should be on Slashdot ;)
kb9vqf	which one is going to be more popular? ;-)
kb9vqf	s/walkman/ipod/iphone/g
MutantTurkey	Google+ is not to good either
Z_God	yep, there are some things that need to be improved
kb9vqf	yes, Trinity aims at *real* developers
MutantTurkey	frankly i see little need for social networing
MutantTurkey	mostly I just use it because I need to contact my girlfriend, etc
Z_God	I don't think G+ is really a social network
MutantTurkey	it is
MutantTurkey	more in a twitter sense of it though
kb9vqf	you know, those people who know the innards of their computer and how to bend it to their will
kb9vqf	:)
* kb9vqf needs to go
kb9vqf	gn all
Z_God	good night!
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: did you ever read real programmers xkcd?
MutantTurkey	wait!
MutantTurkey	very important
MutantTurkey	http://xkcd.com/378/
MutantTurkey	:)
MutantTurkey	then sleep
MutantTurkey	the good old C-x M-x M-butterfly
Z_God	my parents also use trinity without problems really and it's good for them because things stayed the same for 10 years for them ;)
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	a real programmer wants more control, not less
kb9vqf	thereby invalidating that cartoon
kb9vqf	:))
MutantTurkey	it's a joe
MutantTurkey	joke'
MutantTurkey	anyhow
kb9vqf	I know :))
MutantTurkey	It does illustrate the good vim vs emacs war
kb9vqf	just having fun
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	and I say "why use those outdated editors? Try kate!"
kb9vqf	:))
Z_God	when there was vim VS emacs at wineconf
Z_God	quite a few people said kate
Z_God	in 2009
Z_God	and I'm sure it has millions of users
Z_God	I also need to leave, I'll install natty tomorrow in a VM
Z_God	good night!!
MutantTurkey	kate I like, I am a big fan of geany as well
MutantTurkey	Good night.
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I will send that patch in soon for the string errors
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 542 filed by albator78@libertysurf.fr.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=542 needs packaging, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Adding KDE3 kiosktool to TDE
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 543 filed by mutantturkey@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=543 minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, ktorrent string errors
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: uploaded that patch
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tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 539 from NEW to NEEDINFO.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=539 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEEDINFO, XMMS don't work in Trinity
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tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 423 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=423 trivial, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, Bugzilla: Incorrect link on advanced search page
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: me thinks something is up with png and kicker
MutantTurkey	there ar ea few errors with it loading the configure screen. kickoff also hangs on loading a png ( I think, not sure, [but strace seems to show that it is stuck in that circle)
MutantTurkey	though not sure...
MutantTurkey	might be totally wrong
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: do we have debug versions of qt3?
MutantTurkey	as a package?
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	qt-x11-free-dbg
MutantTurkey	ok thank you
MutantTurkey	that should help debugging a bit :)
kb9vqf	np
MutantTurkey	says they should be automatically used by gdb, but I don't think they are
MutantTurkey	keep getting things like kernel/X.ccp not found
MutantTurkey	and such
kb9vqf	huh
kb9vqf	it works here :-/
kb9vqf	did you ever install qt3 from source?
MutantTurkey	weirdo
MutantTurkey	I can't seem to get it to compile...
kb9vqf	because if you ever installed it from source during the history of your computer the debugging symbols may be permanently broken
MutantTurkey	another thing. I think our png in qt maybe borked, or the way kicker is calling it is broken
kb9vqf	which kicker?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: :| permenantly? jeez ubuntu...
MutantTurkey	kickoff
kb9vqf	well, that's a bug in kickoff
MutantTurkey	yes
kb9vqf	everything else works 100%
MutantTurkey	I know that :)
kb9vqf	ok :)
* kb9vqf hates Kickoff with a passion
MutantTurkey	me as well.
MutantTurkey	but, eliminating bugs that I can handle is more important then talking about what I like
kb9vqf	that's fine
kb9vqf	but don't expect much help from me on kickoff
MutantTurkey	of course
kb9vqf	I have much more important things to do, such as mopping my floor :-P
kb9vqf	j/k
MutantTurkey	more like mopping up the oneiric mess
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	bad joke
MutantTurkey	every release I have more bitter resentment for ubuntu
MutantTurkey	now it is flat out hatred.
kb9vqf	me too
kb9vqf	although the core sytem works well
kb9vqf	I have to give them that
MutantTurkey	they are taking advantage of linux
MutantTurkey	and the foss system
MutantTurkey	to make money in an evil way.
kb9vqf	yes, but they polish it up
MutantTurkey	I am okay with corporate involvemnt, red hat enterprise etc
kb9vqf	I don't want to have to fight with arcane subsystems for every single install
kb9vqf	Ubuntu did polish up that aspect quite nicely
MutantTurkey	but ubuntu actually doesn't even mention that its based on linux....
MutantTurkey	at ALL
MutantTurkey	on their website
kb9vqf	I don't like what they say
kb9vqf	I am only interested in part of their final product
kb9vqf	:)
MutantTurkey	"THE UBUNTU OPERATING SYSTEM. FEATURING X Y Z ALL BY UBUNTU"
kb9vqf	I mean we're throwing away 75% of the packages they offer already by not using KDE4, Gnome, etc.
kb9vqf	yes, I have a problem with that
MutantTurkey	they pretend to be part of the foss community but they are actually forcing new users to keep out
MutantTurkey	did i tell you I got in  an argument with an ubuntu user.
kb9vqf	but given a choice between fighting with other distros just to make them work at all (Debian anyone?) I'll cut my losses and use the Ubuntu core
MutantTurkey	we were chatting about it, and I was like "have you tried any other Linux distros" he said "ubuntu isn't linux..."
kb9vqf	:-P
kb9vqf	What does Linus have to say about it?
kb9vqf	It is his OS after all...
kb9vqf	(largely)
MutantTurkey	debian is by far the greatest distro
kb9vqf	If your computer is at least a few years old
MutantTurkey	in terms of usage, stabilty, community
kb9vqf	But it doesn't run properly on new hardware
MutantTurkey	:?
kb9vqf	been there, done that :-P
MutantTurkey	archlinux is my favorite of course :P
MutantTurkey	another thing with ubuntu, is that the company makes design decisions and forces you to keep with them. every six months
kb9vqf	because it stagnates for so long between releases if won't run on hardware designed and manufactured within the past year or so typically
kb9vqf	If debian had a faster release cycle then I'd use it instead
kb9vqf	oh, and the other thing is if a proproetary driver exists I want to use it easily
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: just use thier testing.
kb9vqf	Ubuntu lets me do that
kb9vqf	Debian does not
kb9vqf	*proprietary
kb9vqf	testing can break at any time :-P
MutantTurkey	meh. it's usually okay.
MutantTurkey	unstable is a bit more likely to break
kb9vqf	I need a better guarantee than that here, sorry :)
MutantTurkey	but I have been running arch for like 4 years, no breaks, and thats all bleeding
MutantTurkey	anyway, I digress.
kb9vqf	all it takes is one problem in the kernel and POOF
MutantTurkey	I find that ubuntu is less stable because of the frequent upgrades.
kb9vqf	Well, I have my reasons :)
kb9vqf	others do to
kb9vqf	actually I use both Ubuntu and Debian
kb9vqf	Debian on the servers, because they don't run proprietary stuff
kb9vqf	*some of the servers rather
kb9vqf	and Ubuntu on the desktops
MutantTurkey	ubuntu is just yucky system wise i find. weird paths, oddball things that aren't part of the standards typically found in desktops. even things like upstart and the whole init system I find unbearable
MutantTurkey	arch has a BSD style init system. it rocks.
kb9vqf	upstart is FAST
kb9vqf	I like it honestly
MutantTurkey	anyway :O about to get off the bus. gotta split
kb9vqf	ok
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KingSphinx	Bleh, Ubuntu's taking forever to upgrade.
kb9vqf	Please wait while Ubuntu installs 'bloat': 'KDE4'....'Gnome'...'Unity'...100%...Done!
kb9vqf	Now stealing your passwords....complete!
kb9vqf	:-P
KingSphinx	lol, I'm just upgrading because I'm trying to stay up-to-date. Still wish Ubuntu had a rolling-release version though, these six-month upgrades get annoying.
KingSphinx	And according to the channel logs, there's a problem with Trinity's Kickoff? I'd forgotten there was even a KDE3 version of Kickoff...
kb9vqf	yeah, well...it's not maintained very well at all :)
kb9vqf	all of the original bugs are still in it
KingSphinx	Was this KDE3-native or a backport from 4?
KingSphinx	also, yes, it's very buggy... Kickoff works great in 4, 3? Not so much. :P
kb9vqf	it was the OpenSUSE project version of kickoff
kb9vqf	I hate it personally
kb9vqf	that's why it has never been fixed :)
kb9vqf	if someone wanted to clean it up I'd accept the fixes into SVN though
KingSphinx	But it kinda has to be included?
kb9vqf	there are people who want it
kb9vqf	and it doesn't hurt...if someone upgrades from KDE3.5.10 they will notice a missing feature that used to exist, but they won't notice if it's just as bad as it was under KDE3.5.10 :)
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: can I install something locally to test it? i.e /usr/local/ ? or will it go whack?
kb9vqf	dunno
MutantTurkey	should probably be just in opt
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KingSphinx	Whoo, upgraded to 11.10. Unity was kinda borked though, so I installed GNOME Shell.
KingSphinx	Wonder if installing Shell fixed Unity...
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: well found the  broken function
kb9vqf	?
MutantTurkey	in the kickoff
kb9vqf	oh, ok
kb9vqf	well, send in a patch when you fix it
MutantTurkey	:)
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KingSphinx	Yep, Unity's fixed.
MutantTurkey	...
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: one thing I do like about kickoff is the search function
kb9vqf	there is one in the standard KMenu as well
MutantTurkey	pretty handy. I know the regular menu has it too
MutantTurkey	it's a bit different format. inthe standard kmenu, you have to go into different categories to see
MutantTurkey	a few more clicks. both are acceptable
kb9vqf	I'd rather know where the thing is for next time
kb9vqf	instead of being helpess and fully dependent on the search :-/
MutantTurkey	that is true
MutantTurkey	in windows 7 I am completely dependant an the search
MutantTurkey	because those menus are just to much for me.
kb9vqf	and you keep typing the same things over and over I bet :-
kb9vqf	:-P
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	I mean, I am not really a menu guy anyway. I only use about 3 apps
MutantTurkey	browser, terminal, konversation
kb9vqf	ah
kb9vqf	you could use the quicklaunch for that
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: cooking dinner for my girlfriend tonight. how many hackers does it take to make pasta?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I do! :D i love quick launch
kb9vqf	don't know
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: do you reckon that suse has a working kickoff? isn't that where we got it?
* MutantTurkey asks to many questions
kb9vqf	that's where we got it from
kb9vqf	I think theirs works just as badly as ours
MutantTurkey	ok
kb9vqf	except it has nicer graphics
MutantTurkey	?
MutantTurkey	ours looks ok
KingSphinx	I still wonder why KDE3 would even want a Kickoff, but whatever.
kb9vqf	(obviously we can't ship SuSE logos in upstream distro-agnistoc sources!)
MutantTurkey	the "Powered by TDE" looks a bit flakey though...
kb9vqf	hey, feel free to fix it
kb9vqf	I hate kickoff and won't touch it
MutantTurkey	:)
MutantTurkey	on the list
MutantTurkey	also i've been going through our bug list closing off irrelevant ones and such
kb9vqf	I noticed
Z_God	installed natty now, at least I can compile kmozilla again & have it working
MutantTurkey	spend my extra time in chem knocking a few off
* Z_God knocks on wood
kb9vqf	there are  LOT of closed bugs out there, so that's good
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: closed bugs, and bugs that are closed and need to be verified
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MutantTurkey	or closed because we don't support karmic, for example
kb9vqf	fine with me
kb9vqf	I was a bit lazy earlier and didn't always close the bug report when it was fixed
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KingSphinx	There's still people that use Karmic? O_o
MutantTurkey	well, at least they aren't actual problems, but closing those ones off will make it easier to take down bugs
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: no we just have some lingering bug reports from karmic, obviously that are irrelevant now
MutantTurkey	just some administrative cleanup :)
kb9vqf	yes, one of my original users in acadamia still has Karmic on their systems :-P
kb9vqf	some organizaions don't want to take the time and effort to upgrade
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: also, ubuntu does have long term release installs every few (3?) versions
KingSphinx	Every four versions
MutantTurkey	thats it
KingSphinx	If organizations don't want to bother changing every six months, why not just go for Debian Stable or something like RHEL/CentOS?
MutantTurkey	yeah thats what i was thinking
MutantTurkey	dumb people -> want linux -> poor decisions about distro -> to lazy to change
MutantTurkey	at Drexel U, they had a few debian boxes, the rest seemed to be ubuntu with some sort of central login system
MutantTurkey	kinda cool
MutantTurkey	kinda funny, seeing kids use ubuntu (of course only in the comp sci dep)
Z_God	it's silly to change so often at an organisation
Z_God	and it's not necessary with Ubuntu either
Z_God	the LTS versions work perfectly fine
Z_God	and they give you 5 years of support for the server versions
Z_God	and 3 years for the desktop
Z_God	there is a new LTS version every two years, which gives you a year to upgrade the desktops and even more time for the servers
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay found the problem. the parsing mechanism media is totally borked
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kb9vqf	not sure what you mean...
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: there is a crappy parser with a bunch of for/while loops that parses the different "media" devices. eg usb, hd partitions
MutantTurkey	but the parser is fargled
MutantTurkey	so gotta work it out
kb9vqf	ah
kb9vqf	sounds like a stupid design anyway
kb9vqf	typical from the KDE4 crowd
MutantTurkey	kinda busy tonight and tomorrow,, but tomorrow night i shoul dhave it
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: yeah. i mean the idea is ok. implementation is terrible
MutantTurkey	anyway gotta go cook!
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Status report?
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 544 filed by michaelmartin007@hotmail.de.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=544 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Tutorials of kde3 development from KDE TechBase to www.trinitydestop.org
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KingSphinx	Well, I've run into my first annoying bug in 11.10... installing the Cantarell font caused GNOME Shell to display blocks instead of font.
kb9vqf	ooh, nice
KingSphinx	I could understand the blocks problem happening if I'd removed the font, but it was *installing* the font that caused the issue. Weird, huh?
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	the font is not complete I would guess
KingSphinx	Well, that's dumb.
kb9vqf	yes it is
kb9vqf	but it's also typical Ubuntu all the way
kb9vqf	BTW how do you like Gnome?
KingSphinx	Non-broken? It's actually not bad. Made quite an improvement from GNOME 3.0 to 3.2
KingSphinx	Hardware acceleration actually seems to work in 3.2
kb9vqf	ah
kb9vqf	better in overall design than Trinity?
KingSphinx	(as in, Shell runs smoothly. It ran like poo in Fedora...)
KingSphinx	Lol, it's minimalistic and efficient. There's always room for a traditional desktop though, and that's where Trinity comes in. :)
kb9vqf	ah, ok
kb9vqf	so your lite app launcher versus a full fledged desktop?
kb9vqf	that's what you use both as?
* kb9vqf is curious how Trinity is filling in people
kb9vqf	*filling in people's needs
KingSphinx	To be fair, if I had Trinity installed, I'd more than likely use it as my main, but for what it is, GNOME ain't too bad. Still not a fan of the tablet interface though.
KingSphinx	Also, Ubuntu IRC channel isn't really being helpful with my problems... then again, it's absolutely swamped, why did I think it'd be a good idea to go there? >_>;
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	and for what KDE4 is it isn't too bad, but what it is isn't something I would ever choose to use
kb9vqf	unless I had one of those surface computer toys maybe
KingSphinx	You mean that $50,000 computer table? (or however much it costs)
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	KDE4 just doesn't seem to "fit" on a typical tablet screen
kb9vqf	but maybe if it could work with something larger...
* kb9vqf could see some use for it there
kb9vqf	something with light-duty usage
kb9vqf	*something very large with light duty usage
kb9vqf	so I guess I'm saying KDE4 is not practical lol :)
* kb9vqf didn't realize what he was moving towards
kb9vqf	of course Trinity would be a terrible choice for such a computer
kb9vqf	we really do need multiple desktop environments, one for each class of device I guess
KingSphinx	Duh, it's a traditional desktop-metaphor DE. Then again, Windows used to shoehorn its desktop into tablets, so who knows?
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	I was just laying out what I consider common sense :)
kb9vqf	that way the existence of the typical desktop can be explained as a tradeoff between price/real estate/cost and functionality
kb9vqf	and if the physical desktop computer itself is a good balance, then the specialized desktop environments to run on such machines should be retained, not replaced
KingSphinx	Oh, that whole "stuff randomly disappearing in Fireofx" thing is a bug?
KingSphinx	*Firefox
kb9vqf	yes, it seems so
kb9vqf	it's a bug in GTK
kb9vqf	or Firefox
kb9vqf	whatever it is I think MutantTurkey managed to work around it
kb9vqf	binaries are probably not built yet though
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 538 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=538 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, gtk-qt-engine contains deprecated components.
KingSphinx	Been waiting for about... two hours now...? Still no answer to my font problems on #ubuntu... geez
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KingSphinx	Huh... reinstalling that Cantarell font seems to have done the trick. Odd.
kb9vqf	maybe someone pushed an update already
KingSphinx	Now if only someone could figure out why Ubuntu Software Center seems to have permissions problems (it never prompts for my password, hence I can't use it to install anything), I'd be set.
kb9vqf	I'd check polkit
kb9vqf	I don't know how it works, but I do know that Ubuntu loves to use it instead of sudo :-/
kb9vqf	and this has caused many headaches here
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 545 filed by fatzer2@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=545 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kdelibs fails to compile becouse of mcopidl fails to run (becouse of bad LDPATH)
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 546 filed by raevynsrequiem@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=546 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Graphical Issue
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: around? I think I will close bug 517 on the grounds of being legally questionable
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=517 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, trinity-restricted-addons and trinity-restricted-extras
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Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: hi. i'm working on cmake for kdeartwork now... is it a good ides to add variables like BUILD_KCLOCK_SCREENSAVER BUILD_KWAVE_SCREENSAVER etc for each screensaver? or make it WITH_ ? generally, is it a good idea to add workaround for making possible building only some screensavers?
Fat-Zer	the same with styles...
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Raevyn	Hello. Is there a way to delete the portion of my kde profile that stores my menu (its borked somehow) but not the entire desktop settings and appliation confirgurations?
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Fat-Zer	yes it's possible...
Fat-Zer	Raevyn: i don't remember what file is corresponds for what but u can edit menu and use find command to search for recently changed files.
Fat-Zer	seems it's ~/.config/menus/applications-kmenuedit.menu
Raevyn	Hm.. I will try that in the other profile I made. ITs weird.. I can edit and save my menu changes except for a utilties folder and its contents
Raevyn	that seems it thank you!
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Raevyn	Okay I think I found the issue.. GNOME. On my other user profile I never logged into GNOME with it so the menu looks normal but even after I removed the applications-kde file, the menu went wonky because its importing in GNOME menus. I think the only way to get around this is to move my files to another profile, delete this profile, and recreate it moving my personal files back and changing the permissions on them huh?
Raevyn	Actually... isnt it possible to copy over my other profiles correct menu to another? Just change the permissions on it?
Fat-Zer	look into ~/.config/menus/ directory according to freedesktop.org specifications all menu entries configuration should be there...
* Raevyn nods
Raevyn	I think thats the big issue.. mine is all mucked up from my customizing the gnome menu.
Fat-Zer	so just delete it... or you whant to keep your gnome menu settings?
Fat-Zer	i think that won't work...
Raevyn	No  I..
Raevyn	well.. yea i am thinking its going to require user account stuff.. i might wait to get a new disk drive and just load trinity natively on it.
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KingSphinx	A question about GNUstep and Objective-C: is that really the same language that most of OS X's applications are built on?
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Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: hi. i'm working on cmake for kdeartwork now... is it a good ides to add variables like BUILD_KCLOCK_SCREENSAVER BUILD_KWAVE_SCREENSAVER etc for each screensaver? or make it WITH_ ? generally, is it a good idea to add workaround for making possible building only some screensavers?  the same with kwinstyles and some others...
MutantTurkey	are they in seperate folders?
Fat-Zer	no
MutantTurkey	I suggest then you don't seperate them
MutantTurkey	they should be bundled
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: how much progress have you made? also feel free to email me files (mutantturkey@gmail) if you want me to look over them.
Fat-Zer	kwin-styles kworldclock sounds styles and wallpapers are ready...
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Fat-Zer	but that wasn't really chalenging...
MutantTurkey	yeah it's not to hard
MutantTurkey	mostly just time consuming
MutantTurkey	well send some files over when you get them ready :) I want to double check them all for syntax and stuff
MutantTurkey	then we can have tim push it to the SVN
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: do you use kickoff?
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: are you around? suse question here
Fat-Zer	kscreensaver will be harder... and i don't know how to write ConfigureChecks.cmake...
Fat-Zer	>do you use kickoff?
Fat-Zer	no... what's that?
MutantTurkey	nevermind :P it's the kde4 menu system
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: why do you need to write for ConfigureChecks.cmake
MutantTurkey	I suggest looking at kdegraphics/ConfigureChecks.cmake or something
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: what do you need it for?
Fat-Zer	don't know... i think i should check for some header files and trinity stuff...
MutantTurkey	...
MutantTurkey	okay can you look at the kdegraphics/ConfigureChecks,cmake
MutantTurkey	it shows what is required (at the bottom it says #required stuff)
MutantTurkey	all else you will need is finding packages.
MutantTurkey	or headers
Fat-Zer	hmm... i'm just don't know for what headers and packages to check...
MutantTurkey	we need samelian :P he is the really smart one on cmake
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: okay, you many want to look at the configure.in.* files
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: just do what you can, if you need me to finish it, I can :)
MutantTurkey	It hard to explain because i am not very sure how to do it
Fat-Zer	ok... i'll do what i can/understand
MutantTurkey	ok :D
MutantTurkey	thanks!
Fat-Zer	cool... i attached localization and it works))
MutantTurkey	sweet sweet
MutantTurkey	are you finding cmake to be okay to work with otherwise?
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: I'm here, but coding knetworkmanager + programming project + studying cal, so I might respond a bit late >>;
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KingSphinx	Well, seems people have taken the hint and forked GNOME 2... it's called Mate Desktop Environment.
Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: around?
Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: can you take a look... cde window style doesn'compiles, becouse tde_add_kpart macro doesn' add libraryes for some rison.
Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: here is a repository: git://github.com/Fat-Zer/kdeartwork.git
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KingSphinx	Bleh, Unity seems to be running like poo right now. (Not that it matters, GNOME Shell is my main DE until Oneiric builds of Trinity are done :P)
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ZZRX	hi, is here way how i can upgrade my system to use nightly builds?
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MutantTurkey	yawn
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I have debug builds enabled, but how do I get the debugging information from the program? like the kdDebug output
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h31	Hi all. Where can I get ISO of any distro with a fresh Trinity included?
MutantTurkey	h31: hey, we
MutantTurkey	we will be releasing a new liveCD with onieirc in the soon future
MutantTurkey	h31: but if you are looking to just install trinity, then you'll want a fresh copy of Ubuntu/Debian and from there you can instal trinity
h31	MutantTurkey, ok, I'll try. And what about a Gentoo overlay?
MutantTurkey	h31: I don't know about gentoo. I don't use it.
MutantTurkey	last I recalled someone was working on it
MutantTurkey	let me look
MutantTurkey	hmm
MutantTurkey	h31: I don't think we have any gentoo packaging specs.
MutantTurkey	though I did think someone was working on it.
MutantTurkey	h31: but building trinity isn't too bad. and hey, isn't that half the fun of gentoo?
h31	MutantTurkey, no, software in gentoo is not being build using configure-make-make install, there are special packages there too.
MutantTurkey	:P It was a joke
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: o/
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: it's getting kicker caught in an infinite loop. I think because there is a for statement, and there are two i++'s and the conditional to end it is constEnd, but if you go over const end it goes back to the beginning
Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: got some time?
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: always
MutantTurkey	also you can email me if you need help
MutantTurkey	in case I am out
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: what's the problem?
Fat-Zer	can you take a look... cde window style doesn't compiles, becouse tde_add_kpart macro doesn't add libraries for some reason.
Fat-Zer	can you take a look... cde window style doesn't compiles, becouse tde_add_kpart macro doesn't add libraries for some reason.
Fat-Zer	here is a repository: git://github.com/Fat-Zer/kdeartwork.git
MutantTurkey	okay i will look
MutantTurkey	do you have the whole kdeartwork base there or just the cmake files?
Fat-Zer	whole
MutantTurkey	ok
Fat-Zer	btw if somebody will ask about gentoo packaging you can send them to me ;)
MutantTurkey	okay!
MutantTurkey	do you have it done?
MutantTurkey	I knew somebody was working, couldn't remeber whoo
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: are you building with cmake ../ -DBUILD_ALL=ON?
Fat-Zer	no
MutantTurkey	that should be an option
MutantTurkey	forget how I did it
Fat-Zer	cmake /tmp/kdeartwork/ -DBUILD_KWIN_STYLES=ON -DCMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX=/tmp/kdeartwork-install
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	but you should be able to do -DBUILD_ALL=ON and build all modules
MutantTurkey	okay let me look at thekwin problem first
Fat-Zer	it's there...
Fat-Zer	the option...
Fat-Zer	too
MutantTurkey	does itwork? I see it
Fat-Zer	maybe... i haven't tried it yet
MutantTurkey	hmmm I cannot seem to build it :|
MutantTurkey	can't find my -lkdecore library
Fat-Zer	yes... that's a problem)
Fat-Zer	make VERBOSE=1
Fat-Zer	what compiler command you get?
MutantTurkey	usr/bin/c++  -fPIC   -DQT_NO_ASCII_CAST -DQT_CLEAN_NAMESPACE -DQT_NO_STL -DQT_NO_COMPAT -DQT_NO_TRANSLATION -DQT_THREAD_SUPPORT -D_REENTRANT -include tqt.h -Wl,--no-undefined -shared -Wl,-soname,AUTOMOC.so -o AUTOMOC.so CMakeFiles/AUTOMOC-module.dir/cdeclient.cpp.o -lkdecorations -lkdecore
Fat-Zer	yes... the same...
MutantTurkey	hmmm
MutantTurkey	so it's the tde_add_kpart that is at issue
MutantTurkey	did you look at the wiki? samelian has a page on cmake
MutantTurkey	let me find
Fat-Zer	nope... a second...
MutantTurkey	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Developers/CMakeConversionProcess
Fat-Zer	that describes nothing that i haven't get from cake files...
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: okya
MutantTurkey	you need to add kparts-shared first of all
MutantTurkey	all kparts need that  in LINK
MutantTurkey	and the others should be XX-shared
MutantTurkey	kdecore-shared
MutantTurkey	with kdecorations-shared  I don't know. where is that library from?
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MutantTurkey	weird just chrashed
* Fat-Zer thinking...
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: i don't know what kdecorations is or where it's from thouhg
Fat-Zer	it's part of kwin
Fat-Zer	for me /usr/kde/3.5/lib/libkdecorations.so
MutantTurkey	kwin-shared maybe then
MutantTurkey	guess not
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: I've gotta go out for a while. might be back tonight.
MutantTurkey	look around in other cmake files in the tree okay?
MutantTurkey	email me with problems I'll have my phone
MutantTurkey	sorry :|
Fat-Zer	ok
Fat-Zer	thanks for pshing me right direction
Fat-Zer	*pushing
MutantTurkey	yep
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MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: progress?
Fat-Zer	yes
Fat-Zer	1 min... i'll upload it...
Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: https://github.com/Fat-Zer/kdeartwork/blob/master/kwin-styles/cde/CMakeLists.txt
Fat-Zer	the problem becouse kwin doesn't create ${TDE_CMAKE_DIR}/kwin.cmake
Fat-Zer	maybe the better way is to add "tde_install_export( )" into the end of win's CMakeList.txt
Fat-Zer	*kwin's
Fat-Zer	and include it in window styles CMake's
Fat-Zer	but that works ok too...
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MutantTurkey	create that then
MutantTurkey	if kwin doesn't create it, then why not add it?
MutantTurkey	to kwin
Fat-Zer	becouse it's out of my power ))
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KingSphinx	Create wha? Sorry, i came in a bit late.
Fat-Zer	KingSphinx: this http://paste.pocoo.org/show/493488/]
KingSphinx	KWin extensions?
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: it is not
MutantTurkey	if it has not been made yet ,and needs to be made
MutantTurkey	well then make it!
MutantTurkey	as long as it is in line with the style we have now
Fat-Zer	wait... i need test onething...
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Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: this patch: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/493496/
Fat-Zer	it creates and installs kwin.cmake
Fat-Zer	like this:
Fat-Zer	add_library( kdecorations-shared SHARED IMPORTED )
Fat-Zer	set_target_properties( kdecorations-shared PROPERTIES
Fat-Zer	IMPORTED_LINK_INTERFACE_LIBRARIES "kdecore-shared"
Fat-Zer	IMPORTED_LOCATION "/usr/kde/3.5/lib/libkdecorations.so.1.0.0"
Fat-Zer	IMPORTED_SONAME "libkdecorations.so.1" )
Fat-Zer	you can look at kicker or konqueror CMakeList.txt there is the same...
MutantTurkey	so is that the solution?
Fat-Zer	yes
Fat-Zer	it's the right solution...
Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: i think i should tell Tim about that or write to mailing list?
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MutantTurkey	what does a kwin.cmake do?
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Fat-Zer	it provides information for link with kdecorations-shared
Fat-Zer	it's simmilar with other files in $KDEDIR/share/cmake/
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	so that is the solution
MutantTurkey	the right solution
Fat-Zer	yep)
MutantTurkey	so just mail it in when you do the whole thing
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: also, I love github :)
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Fat-Zer	this patch can be applied anytime... it breaks nothing...
MutantTurkey	yeah
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: can you send it?
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: watch your syntax too :) make sure too keep the spacing consistant
Fat-Zer	allready send...
Fat-Zer	i'm trying... have you seen problems?
Fat-Zer	but i like tabs more than spaces...
MutantTurkey	dude
MutantTurkey	set your tab key to equal 2 spaces
MutantTurkey	most editors can do that I know of
MutantTurkey	at least vim/emacs/geany can all
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Fat-Zer	i know =)) but i'm working not only on trinity...
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	what else are you working on?
Fat-Zer	my university work...
MutantTurkey	what university do you attend?
MutantTurkey	going bowling! be back later
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ZZRX	hi, is here way how i can upgrade my system to use nightly builds?
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MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: yo
Fat-Zer	only two mire modules...
Fat-Zer	icons and screensaver)
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	let me know and I can re pull it
MutantTurkey	then I can make sure its okay, make changes and push it back to you
MutantTurkey	i'll do a pull request or something. I don't remember how git does it really
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: DOODE DOODE DOODE
MutantTurkey	i got it worknig i think
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: seemed that the it needed to go i++; i++; i++; because there was a new entry every 4 lines
MutantTurkey	dunno if it's legit. but if it works...
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MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: progress?
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: hey dude I think I fixed it up okay. It's working now for me
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	send in a patch to a bug report...
MutantTurkey	yep
MutantTurkey	still working on the whole button being/working funky
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: is there a way to get back to the svn's latest version?
kb9vqf	svn up
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I meant if i had modified files
kb9vqf	or if you meant revert, then svn revert --recrusive .
kb9vqf	*recursive
MutantTurkey	okay thanks :
kb9vqf	from within the directory you want reverted
kb9vqf	np
MutantTurkey	gotta test this more throughly
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: how do I build a package again?
kb9vqf	dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot
MutantTurkey	right
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: can I build with static libraries?
kb9vqf	no idea
MutantTurkey	okay
kb9vqf	probably if you play with the CMake file
kb9vqf	*files
MutantTurkey	yeahgot it
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: also, can I reinstall a package?
MutantTurkey	:)
kb9vqf	dpkg -i <packagename>.deb
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	most confusing thing about the debian packaging system is that there are many different tools
MutantTurkey	pretty sure I just borked my system
MutantTurkey	gotta hit the bed anyway
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: nice
MutantTurkey	now it doesn't crash
MutantTurkey	but the button still sucks. gotta fix that up tomorrow
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	then bug report and patch...
MutantTurkey	yep
MutantTurkey	also that firefox patch is nice :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I don't know if my patch is legit. it seems so dumb of a mistake my solution just seems randomly to work
MutantTurkey	solution seems to trivial
kb9vqf	firefox patch?
kb9vqf	the one already committed to SVN?
kb9vqf	all programmers can make dumb mistakes BTW; fix them as you find them...
MutantTurkey	yes the one in the svn
MutantTurkey	that is nice
kb9vqf	good to hear it works proplery :)
kb9vqf	*properly
kb9vqf	solutions can be trivial
kb9vqf	send the patch in on a bug report--if it's wrong I'll say so
MutantTurkey	yes. I sent it in
MutantTurkey	if this isn't the solution, I am going to have to do a whole overhaul of that area of code  (which is okay, I am just a slow learner so far at C++ and I have constantly look everything up)
MutantTurkey	anyway I really gotta sleep night.
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* KingSphinx finally fixed my permissions issues in Ubuntu :D
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 547 filed by neptunia@mail.ru.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=547 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, gtk-qt-engine does not support GTK3
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schreiberstein	how can i use my apple magic mouse on trinity?
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: something funky happened and I don't have a /opt/trinity/share/cmake/libkonq.cmake. do you know what package provides it?
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: fatzer is making good progress on cmake. that is encouraging
kb9vqf	yes it is
kb9vqf	Xu_R: Status report please
MutantTurkey	I'm trying to help him oversee it a little bit.
MutantTurkey	throw some pointers
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: do you want me to start dealing with bug 547
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=547 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, gtk-qt-engine does not support GTK3
MutantTurkey	I have ported a few apps to GTK3 already
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	go right ahead
kb9vqf	but please don't break GTK2 support
MutantTurkey	I am trying to figure out how to implement that
MutantTurkey	it might need to be qt-gtk2-engine qt-gtk-3engine
MutantTurkey	seperate sources
MutantTurkey	because you cannot do it the other way
kb9vqf	hmm
kb9vqf	do a new module in the current engine
kb9vqf	we don't need two separate configuration modules for instance
MutantTurkey	a new module in the current engine OK
MutantTurkey	we will see :P
kb9vqf	by a new module I mean a completely different .so file compiled from code in its own folder--the only linkage is that it uses the settings files from the original kcontrol module
kb9vqf	make sense?
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	should I just start by making a foldre and copying the source into it?
MutantTurkey	I mean basically the conversion is simple, instead of rewrite
MutantTurkey	the source
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	that is exactly what you should d
kb9vqf	*do
kb9vqf	move src to src2
kb9vqf	copy src2 to src3
kb9vqf	fix the CMake files to build src2/ and src3/ instead of src/
kb9vqf	hack on src3
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	network-manager 0.9 scares me
kb9vqf	from a security perspective
kb9vqf	they have literally forced all connection information to be stored in a system wide configuration database
kb9vqf	so it's up to how good their access controls are at keeping things secret, instead of POSIX
kb9vqf	:eek:
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: basic backporting done, but probably not even close to functional. Will probably spend this week making it much better.
Xu_R	on another note: today was hell, even though it's only Monday. bbl. very delayed replies incoming.
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kb9vqf-web	Xu_R: Trinity 3.5.13 will ship with nm-applet; the changes to knetworkmanager would require a complete rewrite.  At this point I do not see much of a problem with using nm-applet with the GTK/Qt engine
kb9vqf-web	If someone wants to rewrite knetworkmanager I won't stop them, and the knetworkmanager 0.8 version will still ship with 3.5.13 and later versions
Xu_R	kb9vqf-web: yea, I figured this would happen :-\
kb9vqf-web	It just does not make sense to duplicate effort at this point
Xu_R	kb9vqf-web:  from above: I did some basic backporting, now to actually finish and stuff...
kb9vqf-web	the problem is knetworkmanager is designed around its internal connection database
kb9vqf-web	nm 0.9 suddenly requires you to use the system database only
Xu_R	kb9vqf-web: I noticed that when I was trying to backport some of it :-\
kb9vqf-web	yes
kb9vqf-web	it needs a rewrite
Xu_R	and we don't have resources for a rewrite right now...
kb9vqf-web	And I would wait until network-manager 1.0 at the earliest
kb9vqf-web	the API chages too radically and too often right now for anyone other than netowrk-manager itself to make an applet for it
Xu_R	just in case the API changes again
Xu_R	yea.
kb9vqf-web	correct
kb9vqf-web	I mean it's chancing every year right now :-P
kb9vqf-web	*changing
kb9vqf-web	we got lucky with 0.7 and 0.8
Xu_R	ah, linux is changing wayy to fast >_>;;
kb9vqf-web	And I really, really don't like the lack of security in 0.9
kb9vqf-web	no, just certain GNOME progjects :-P
kb9vqf-web	*projects
Xu_R	XD at least kde4 learned their lesson and slowed down XD
kb9vqf-web	hehe
kb9vqf-web	so they're shipping the same bugs in each new release? :-P))
Xu_R	LOL
Xu_R	probably XD
kb9vqf-web	I did split off knetworkmanager into knetworkmanager8 and knetworkmanager9
Xu_R	especially if they're marking legitimate bugs as NOTABUG
kb9vqf-web	yep
Xu_R	ok. that keeps both of them seperate :P
kb9vqf-web	knetworkmanager9 will contain the rewrite eventually
kb9vqf-web	right now it's just a clone of knetworkmanager8
kb9vqf-web	and before that even, we should see what the most irritating parts of nm-applet are
kb9vqf-web	so that the rewrite can fix them
kb9vqf-web	we don't need to stay with the old knetworkmanager UI...
kb9vqf-web	anyway, just wanted to let you know
Xu_R	a full rewrite! what fun >_>;
kb9vqf-web	you could star working on it if you want
kb9vqf-web	:)
kb9vqf-web	*start
Xu_R	I don't know enough about Qt3 to even attempt that right now :P
Xu_R	nor do I happen to have enough time DX
kb9vqf-web	ok
Xu_R	backporting and fixing is as far as I can go right now :(
kb9vqf-web	well, it might just end up on the never-done list :)
Xu_R	who knows...
Xu_R	we just need more people first...
kb9vqf-web	actually if I can skin nm-applet with gtk-qt-engine then I don't see the point in a unique applet for Trinity
kb9vqf-web	I mean the functionality is identical
kb9vqf-web	in fact, nm-applet will work *better* in most cases
Xu_R	people just want uniqueness... or pure Qt...
kb9vqf-web	I don't care
kb9vqf-web	Trinity is not a religion built around Qt3 :-P
Xu_R	XD
kb9vqf-web	if there's a beter app in a different toolkit I've always said to use it :)
kb9vqf-web	*better, unline my typing today
kb9vqf-web	*unline
kb9vqf-web	*unlike
kb9vqf-web	grr
Xu_R	hehe
Xu_R	exactly
Xu_R	unlike what Ilya is doing ._.
kb9vqf-web	and if it doesn't blend in with Trinity then there's a bug in the intergration package(s)
kb9vqf-web	Trinity should present a unified graphical interface, but through those integration packages, not through rewrites and reinventing the wheel
kb9vqf-web	Let MutantTurkey know please
kb9vqf-web	he was curious
Xu_R	sure
* kb9vqf-web can't use memoserv from here
kb9vqf-web	not logged in :)
Xu_R	:P
kb9vqf-web	also he should keep fixing bugs as he is already doing with the gtk engine
kb9vqf-web	oneiric is almost built...
kb9vqf-web	:))
kb9vqf-web	release is ON SCHEDULE for Nov. 1
Xu_R	:D
Fat-Zer	i haven't seen the whole talk. but you are talking about not rewriting kde applet with new api?
kb9vqf-web	correct
kb9vqf-web	unless someone really wants to do it
Fat-Zer	omm....
kb9vqf-web	you can view the discussion in the channel log :)
kb9vqf-web	functionally, knetworkmanager was always behind nm-applet anyway
kb9vqf-web	and with proper gtk integration, using nm-applet should actualyl be an improvement
kb9vqf-web	*actually
kb9vqf-web	Did you have a different opinio?
kb9vqf-web	*opinion?
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Fat-Zer	AFAIK nm-applet requires a big part of gnome isn't it?
kb9vqf-web	no
kb9vqf-web	just some libraries AFAIK
kb9vqf-web	common GTK libraries that are probably on your system already to be honest
kb9vqf-web	network-manager pulls in more dependencies than the applet does AFAIK
* kb9vqf-web goes to look
kb9vqf-web	the network-manager devs advertise that the nm-applet can be used on XFCE, GNOME, etc.
Fat-Zer	it pulls gnome-keyrings for me...
kb9vqf-web	the keyring I can understand
kb9vqf-web	that's only a few KB though
kb9vqf-web	that's no different than if you installed one library from Trinity--it would pull in the kyering for all of Trinity
kb9vqf-web	but not actually INSTALL all of Trinity ;-)
Fat-Zer	yes... but IMHO to hame a special kde appelete is better...
kb9vqf-web	if you want to write it go ahead...
Fat-Zer	=)
kb9vqf-web	my estimate is 6 months solid of a developer's time
kb9vqf-web	that's expensive in either time or $$$$
kb9vqf-web	and what do we REALLY get out of it?
Fat-Zer	yea... i understand that.
kb9vqf-web	I could understand if it was some special app with no direct replacement anywhere, such as Konqueror :)
kb9vqf-web	Looks like the largest dependency is the icon pack: http://packages.ubuntu.com/oneiric/network-manager-gnome
kb9vqf-web	and the buggest problem is that it uses GTK 3.0, but MutantTurkey is fixing that
kb9vqf-web	*-biggest
Fat-Zer	have you seen the small patch i send to ML yesturday?
kb9vqf-web	For CMake?
kb9vqf-web	yes
Fat-Zer	yes.
kb9vqf-web	I'll commit that and the other kdebase patch for kickoff a bit later
Fat-Zer	ok thanks)
kb9vqf-web	probably in the next few days
kb9vqf-web	np
kb9vqf-web	Fat-Zer: Also, as I was saying to Xu_R, I would definitely wait for nm API v1.0 before even trying to do a rewrite
kb9vqf-web	who knows what changes will occur in a year
kb9vqf-web	I would want to see a stable (non-development) version of the library  before even attempting that
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Fat-Zer	yes... i've seen that.
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: looks like there are a few bug reports related to that one kickoff problem
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MutantTurkey	Xu_R: Rodger that.
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay so kickoff uses KNewButton, which is terrible, bloaty and doesn't really work or follow the other settings. it actually uses a TQmovie to draw the regular button... Idk
MutantTurkey	it's weird and not very minimalistic like the regular KButton
MutantTurkey	so I am going to modify it to use KButton
MutantTurkey	it messes with the rest of the bar as well
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MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: hey
Fat-Zer	hi...
MutantTurkey	what's up?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I got it to embed without KNewButton, so that mess is out of the way. It even uses the user defined icon. but now it won't open :x
Fat-Zer	nearly finished kscreensaver/kdesavers...
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: awesome
MutantTurkey	thanks for helping :)
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: but I know it's initialized
Fat-Zer	np
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: almost got kickoff working, just need to get one more function working
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: it's not so much source wise, but there will be some files removed. is that messy?
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MutantTurkey	now it pops up in the wrong spot :x
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MutantTurkey	Xu_R: what is ilya doing about nm 0.9?
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: absolutely nothing.
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: okay so we use nm-applet?
Xu_R	yup
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: also I am fixing up kickoff :)
MutantTurkey	what about gnome-keyring?
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: can't seem to work out this problem, but what I have so far fixes almost all of the kickoff problems
MutantTurkey	meh i give up
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KingSphinx	And once again, I've had to reinstall Kubuntu. Seems regular Ubuntu really doesn't like when you install KDE, then try to remove Unity.
KingSphinx	I will say this though: KDE managed to get everything right so far with 4.7... it hasn't crashed at all.
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rajju	h
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 548 filed by plaws@ou.edu.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=548 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, "Unsupported Platform"
MobileTurkey	Fat-Zer: heya dude
MobileTurkey	Xu_R: still busy with school?
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Fat-Zer	MobileTurkey: nearly no progress since yesterday.... i only added an IconThemes... i belive tomorow everything will be ready =)
Fat-Zer	*believe
Fat-Zer	turday i realised that i can copy nearly all difficult issues from kde4'ths files...
MobileTurkey	okay cool
MobileTurkey	well if you have it all ready tomorrow, can you email it to me? I just want to double check it
Fat-Zer	yes i can... btw everething will be in the repository...
MobileTurkey	oh cool
MobileTurkey	that makes it easy
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MobileTurkey	Xu_R: nm-applet is quite good
Xu_R	MobileTurkey: it is - so it works for us too :P
MobileTurkey	no need to maintain a huge application
MobileTurkey	i mean originally we had the entire workforce of KDE on the 3.5 series... imagine if we still did
MobileTurkey	Xu_R: you are a kickoff guy right?
Xu_R	yea.
MobileTurkey	I have it working almost perfectly :)
MobileTurkey	with the default button as well
MobileTurkey	Xu_R: should close off a few bugs related to kickoff i
Xu_R	awesome :D
MobileTurkey	yep
MobileTurkey	only problem is that it is popping up in the wrong spot now
MobileTurkey	I can't get it working
MobileTurkey	and I don't really want to send it off without that
MobileTurkey	but I have been at it for hours
MobileTurkey	I need tim, but he is way bogged down
MobileTurkey	I dunno
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 548 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=548 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, "Unsupported Platform"
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net marked bug 542 as a duplicate of bug 105.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=542 needs packaging, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED DUPLICATE, Adding KDE3 kiosktool to TDE
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=105 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, UNCONFIRMED, add kiosktool
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 105 from UNCONFIRMED to RESOLVED FIXED.
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kb9vqf	Xu_R: Well, I've fixed up gtk-qt-engine as best as I can given the limitations inherent in GTK 2.x
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 232 from NEW to RESOLVED INVALID.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=232 minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED INVALID, dpms forced on by kde3, won't stay off
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Resolution on bug 103 from FIXED to INVALID.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=103 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED INVALID, Weird looking characters on power off
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 473 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=473 critical, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, konqueror ca cert problems
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 549 filed by kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=549 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, knetworkmanager needs rewrite for network-manager API 0.9 and higher
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 543 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=543 minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, ktorrent string errors
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: saw you pushed a bunch of fixes for gtk
MutantTurkey	did you fix the firefox buttons dissappearing issue? we can close off bug 546 if you did
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=546 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Graphical Issue - gtk-qt-engine
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MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: still freaking stuck on this kickoff issue
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: my hal is broken for some reason
MutantTurkey	maybe a change in the package?
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Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: hey!
Fat-Zer	i'm ready with kdeartwork-cmake
Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: don't know your mail so send to ml
MutantTurkey	cool
MutantTurkey	sorry
MutantTurkey	was letting my little sister watch a video before bedtime
MutantTurkey	parents are away in paris so I am basically stuck babysitting her and my senile grandmother who is supposed to take care of her for the week.
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: did you send it in?
Fat-Zer	yes
Fat-Zer	developer mail list is pre-moderated... isn't it?
MutantTurkey	cool I see it
MutantTurkey	meaning?
MutantTurkey	it is not moderated.
Fat-Zer	i've seen that somewhere...
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: does the BUILD_ALL option work?
Fat-Zer	yes
MutantTurkey	sweet
MutantTurkey	i love git so much more than svn
MutantTurkey	I am going to loo kthrough all files
Fat-Zer	i haven't used svn a lot to say such things... but i like git too
MutantTurkey	its much faster
MutantTurkey	okay one thing that I see, that we havent used before is the target_SRCES thing but it's probably okay
Fat-Zer	there it is? it's probably a typo...
MutantTurkey	?
MutantTurkey	I mean the fact that you use ${target}_SRCES
MutantTurkey	but inconsistantly
MutantTurkey	in SOURCES
MutantTurkey	either have them all like that or none I say
Fat-Zer	i used {}_SRCS and {}_SOURCES in one module...
MutantTurkey	consistancy is key
MutantTurkey	samelian was a real style nazi, but I am just looking out for maintainability
Fat-Zer	ok... I'll remove the _SOURCES =)
MutantTurkey	I say stop using the whole {}_SRCS thing, because we don't use it in any other modules
MutantTurkey	I want to keep it simple across the board
MutantTurkey	I don't see much advantage for it
MutantTurkey	thoughts?
Fat-Zer	you used it in kdebase...
MutantTurkey	did we?
MutantTurkey	okay then I misspoke. seems we are inconsistant :P
MutantTurkey	then stick withhte _SRCS and do with out the _SOURCES
MutantTurkey	you were right :)
Fat-Zer	eg in konqueror/CMakeList.txt
MutantTurkey	anywhere else?
MutantTurkey	oh yeah quite a few places
MutantTurkey	okay well carry on!
MutantTurkey	:)
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: other than that it looks very well done
Fat-Zer	thanks ))
MutantTurkey	:D
MutantTurkey	now don't tire.... only a few hundred more Cmake lists till all of trinity is done :P
Fat-Zer	great news =)))
MutantTurkey	well this will make it in for the release
Fat-Zer	one more about cmake: before relese we really need to make something with new commits to kdebase.
Fat-Zer	it still uses add_subdirectory() for several modules.
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kb9vqf	Xu_R MutantTurkey: release is coming up fast...code freeze will likely go into effect this weekend
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KingSphinx	This originally had the entire workforce behind KDE 3.5? Or was that referring back to when this was KDE's baby?
kb9vqf	back when this was KDE e.V.'s baby
kb9vqf	that was many years ago now (gosh, it's really been that long?!? ;-))
kb9vqf	no, KDE e.V. dropped the KDE3.5 style like a hot potato as fast as they possibly could
kb9vqf	they are all about tablets and such now :-/
KingSphinx	To be fair, it's still possible to set up a "traditional" desktop with Plasma, and 4.7's finally ironed out most of the annoying bugs (no more random desktop crashes... except when shutting down, oddly enough)
kb9vqf	yes, but for how long, and it's still a far cry from a "native" traditional desktop
kb9vqf	you hit the limits of their box around the desktop model pretty quick (e.g. what use do the RMB and MMB have on KDE4 really?)
kb9vqf	RMB = right mouse button
KingSphinx	Still more choice than GNOME Shell though. :/
kb9vqf	and I still hate having to wade through what are essentially multi-level modal dialogs masquerading as "programs"
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	of course
kb9vqf	but while medeocre compared to bad is relatively good, it's still not great...
kb9vqf	I guess that's my complaint about the latest versions of KDE4: it's a mediocre desktop at best
kb9vqf	Windows and Mac have it hands down
kb9vqf	BTW release is coming up soon...test the nightly builds and report any critical bugs ASAP!
kb9vqf	*very soon
KingSphinx	Do nighlies automatically upgrade to the final release or do they keep going on their own release channel?
KingSphinx	bleh, *nightlies
kb9vqf	no, you will have to manually switch your /etc/apt/sources.list to the release channel
kb9vqf	otherwise you'll keep pulling nightlies, which will grow unstable rather rapidly into the next release cycle for obvious reasons
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: yessir
KingSphinx	Does 3.5.13 really move everything to the Trinity namespace? (i.e. using .trinity instead of .kde3 for user stuff)
MutantTurkey	I need to get this kickoff patch
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: also hal broke randomly for me. I don't really know what's up except for kpower save doesn't work
kb9vqf	it moves a lot, but not all (e.g. we still use libkdecore.so, etc.)(
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: HAL breaks sometimes like that--try purging all of HAL and reinstalling it
kb9vqf	that usually fixes the problem
MutantTurkey	ok
kb9vqf	and yes it's related to upgrades
MutantTurkey	also started transferring stuff over
MutantTurkey	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Documentation/DeveloperTutorial
KingSphinx	Would renaming my .kde3 folder help or would I just lose everything settings-related? (sorry for the questions, I'm just curious)
kb9vqf	KingSphinx: Yes you need to rename it--if you don't then Trinity will on first login
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Good--just remember to change the links ;-)
kb9vqf	and get the kickoff patch in soon--I want to put in the code freeze ASAP
MutantTurkey	I am having trouble
MutantTurkey	I would like to enlist your help
MutantTurkey	I can send in stuff tomorrow, everything works except that it pops up in the wrong spot
MutantTurkey	I tracked it down to a function but I don't know why it works for the original panel and not the new one
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Sorry, don't have much time with the release coming up, and besides as I memo-ed you the Kickoff code is a nasty piece of work
kb9vqf	I don't want to touch it with a 10 foot pole :-P
MutantTurkey	Ok
MutantTurkey	we might just have to wait on it th
MutantTurkey	then'
MutantTurkey	at least the patch to keep it from freezing should be in
KingSphinx	I always get Kickoff and Kicker confused @.@
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	kickoff is the OpenSUSE horrid thing
KingSphinx	The Creature From the KDE4 Lagoon? :P
MutantTurkey	isn't kickoff from kde4 originally?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: the "repositories" that Ilya "maintains" are filthy layers of patches and hacks
MutantTurkey	I checked it out
kb9vqf	yes, I know
MutantTurkey	one thing I did see though
MutantTurkey	they have a kio module that provides sysinfo:/
kb9vqf	might be worth looking into
MutantTurkey	http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=58704
kb9vqf	file a needs-packaging bug
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	seems like we are keeping on top of bugs recently :D
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: also with your gtk fixes, can I close off bug 546?
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=546 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Graphical Issue - gtk-qt-engine
kb9vqf	Have you tried it?
kb9vqf	If it works then close the bug
MutantTurkey	it's the tab bar problems
MutantTurkey	I'll ask him to updated and retry
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: so for the release, when are we going to code freeze
MutantTurkey	timeline?
kb9vqf	code freeze is probably this weekend
kb9vqf	then my build farm has to catch up and we need to write release notes
kb9vqf	respin livecds, etc.
kb9vqf	still on target for a release Nov. 1st
kb9vqf	oneiric won't have LibreOffice built on release date, but that's a third party app anyway that always sucks down WAAAAY too much of my time :-P
KingSphinx	Meh, I already have LibreOffice installed, so no loss for me.
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: okay.
kb9vqf	well, you will lose your TDE integration if it gets updated from the official Ubuntu repositories
MutantTurkey	as for the release, are you making tarballs or what?
kb9vqf	yes
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	so on that I will make arch packages
MutantTurkey	(hopefully)
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	as soon as code freeze happens all packagers should start building final binaries
MutantTurkey	and then Nov 1st, we start commiting patches again?
kb9vqf	no
kb9vqf	first we migrate to GIT
kb9vqf	that entails quite a bit of work unfortunately
kb9vqf	including repairs to the automatic process that run here to build the patch list, nightly builds, etc.
kb9vqf	*processes
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	I have worked out more thoughts on tha
MutantTurkey	the way xfce does it is well done
MutantTurkey	I think you can "group" repositories with git in a frontend.
MutantTurkey	but a seperate repository for kdebase, kdeaddons, kdelibs, is in order
kb9vqf	the more complexity to the repository, the longer our downtime...
MutantTurkey	right
MutantTurkey	but one giant tree won't work
MutantTurkey	because git you cannot do git clone address/subdir/subdir
MutantTurkey	because of the internal hashing and checking system
MutantTurkey	so you would at the very least need it for kdelibs, kdebase, the basics
* kb9vqf understands
MutantTurkey	not sure about applications
kb9vqf	oh ick
kb9vqf	applications
MutantTurkey	what to do?
kb9vqf	this is where I start to wonder if GIT is such a good idea
kb9vqf	:-P
kb9vqf	I refuse to have a separate repository for each app
kb9vqf	I'll have to think about this I guess
kb9vqf	Either way expect sigificant downtime for the code repositories after release
kb9vqf	(this won't affect existing GIT repositories or any other services BTW)
MutantTurkey	right
MutantTurkey	there are quite a few advantages to git i think though
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: also there is a thing called submodules
kb9vqf	yes, I know, but the big disadvantage is the mandatory repository checkout size
MutantTurkey	I have to look into it
kb9vqf	look into it please :)
kb9vqf	and let me know
MutantTurkey	yep
kb9vqf	also I need to know how I'm going to migrate all the SVN changelog info to GIT
kb9vqf	we don't want to lose that
kb9vqf	but first get the kickoff patch where you need it
kb9vqf	and look into gtk-qt-engine for GTK3 while you are at it
MutantTurkey	I have been stuck on this kickoff thing for days.
MutantTurkey	literally frying my brains
MutantTurkey	I feel like its so obvious that I am choking.
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I am going to sleep. looks like submodules or trees are the way to go
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I got it
MutantTurkey	http://gitslave.sourceforge.net/gits-man-page.html
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 550 filed by fatzer2@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=550 trivial, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kdeartwork/wallpapers desktop-files translations are broken
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 551 filed by fatzer2@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=551 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, some desktop files translations are broken
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Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: can you explain in couple of words what is tqt3integration in kdebase and what modules are using it?
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Raevyn	Hello! So has anyone tried installing Trinity.. the DVD iso I mean, and right after it goes past the portion where it displays "Kubuntu KDE3/Trinity it just freezes?
MutantTurkey	Raevyn: we are going to have a new on out by Nov 1st
MutantTurkey	if you want to wait and get the latest.
Raevyn	Oh well yea i can wait. I just tried it standalone today and it hickuped that way. It works fine in the virtual machine though thats why it confused me
MutantTurkey	LiveCDs have always been sort of tricky for me.
* Raevyn nods
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Borg^Queen	hello
Fat-Zer	hello...
Borg^Queen	hi Fats
Fat-Zer	that was a nice talk =)
Borg^Queen	lol
Borg^Queen	I feel I know you better
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: when are we freezing the code?
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I haven't made any progress on gtk3 at all. I am still stuck on kicker and I don't want to give up when I am one function working away
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: also the solution: http://gitslave.sourceforge.net/
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: I think we should add a status flag on the bug tracker. one that has "PATCH UPLOADED" or similar.  so that we can easily see if a patch as been uploaded
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 552 filed by nick@leverton.org.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=552 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, krfb: amd64 krfb won't accept correct password due to word size issue
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Mephisto__	hi!
Mephisto__	anyone alive?
Mephisto__	Three questions:
Mephisto__	1) why does Konqueror crash in attempt to access any webpage at all bringing some weird error, 2) Why does KDE log off when i choose 800x600 resolution specifically and not any other one, 3) Why doesn't my password work for the root directory in Trinity? Like it's been changed or something. Thank you.
Mephisto__	Trinity 3.5.12 installed on Debian 6.0.3 Squeeze-Gnome.
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 552 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=552 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, krfb: amd64 krfb won't accept correct password due to word size issue
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 422 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=422 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, krfb: Double free in xupdatescanner.cc
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KingSphinx	Bleh, got the Trinity fever again. Actually managed to get the window style and whatnot configured like Trinity, except for Plasma itself (though that's for obvious reasons).
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: ping
KingSphinx	Not to sound like a nag or anything, but is that Kickoff bug or whatever still not fixed?
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MutantTurkey	.
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aquarius_	hello?
aquarius_	anyone there?
MutantTurkey	hey!
MutantTurkey	I am :)
aquarius_	hi hi
aquarius_	are you from Trinity crew? :)
MutantTurkey	yes thats me :P
aquarius_	so nice to know
aquarius_	have a few questions here
MutantTurkey	why whats up?
MutantTurkey	cool cool
aquarius_	i really do appreciate that project, kde3.5 looks so classic
aquarius_	even though i'm new to linux, but i find it cool.
MutantTurkey	:) you have tim to thank for that. He's the one who keeps the whole rig running
MutantTurkey	aquarius_: how long have you been using linux?
aquarius_	well, for about one week i guess :)
MutantTurkey	wow so very new
aquarius_	but i've already got along with it..
aquarius_	yep
MutantTurkey	very very :P
aquarius_	indeed :)
MutantTurkey	how did you hear of trinity?
aquarius_	well... i was looking for that original linux looks :)
aquarius_	and then i realized that it's been cancelled and got a new cover in KDE4
aquarius_	but somehow i discovered Trinity later
aquarius_	nobody told me about it... but i can't remember how i got onto it
MutantTurkey	kde4 blech
aquarius_	well.. its not customizable...
aquarius_	i mean... there's something about it that i didn't like
MutantTurkey	I don't like it much.
MutantTurkey	at all.
aquarius_	me neither
aquarius_	you know what.... your java plugin works unlike the one for gnome. Well... i'm using Debian :)
aquarius_	the other one i just couldn't get to work!
MutantTurkey	debian is quite nice
aquarius_	yeah, i like it
MutantTurkey	It's good
aquarius_	but i have a couple of issues with kde... though hopefully solvable ones
MutantTurkey	with trinity?\
aquarius_	Yep. tell me.. why does it bring me to login screen every time i try to change resolution? And strangely if i pick a lower one
aquarius_	i need 800x600
aquarius_	and to use that resolution i have to logon to Gnome first and then to log off and get onto KDE
aquarius_	that way it works
aquarius_	but yet it doesn't save it!
aquarius_	so next time i restart it makes it high again, 1920x....
aquarius_	it puts it to maximum
MutantTurkey	what login screen are you using?
MutantTurkey	kdm or gdm?
aquarius_	Trinity
aquarius_	kdm
MutantTurkey	kdm then
aquarius_	yeah.
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	well it's probably something funky with your display driver and xorg config
aquarius_	hmm.....
MutantTurkey	are you running the SVN or 3.5.12?
aquarius_	erm... what's that?
aquarius_	and how can i find out?
aquarius_	ah....
MutantTurkey	where did you install it from?
aquarius_	from your website
aquarius_	the way it was shown there
aquarius_	from terminal
MutantTurkey	ok (sorry I have to look0
aquarius_	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/installation.php
aquarius_	from here
aquarius_	i just followed the instruction
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	can you do this for me?
MutantTurkey	open up the menu, open up your system settings. there should be something that says "help" in the menu bar of the window
aquarius_	sure
MutantTurkey	click on "about trinity"
MutantTurkey	that'll say what version
aquarius_	3.5.12
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	so basically you are running the stable version we have 3.5.13
aquarius_	oh really
MutantTurkey	we are about a week and a half from the release of 3.5.13
aquarius_	cool!
aquarius_	that's so nice
MutantTurkey	it's gonna be pretty sweet
aquarius_	i really wanna keep only to Trinity KDE
MutantTurkey	we actually have a dialog that will let you configure your display settings nicely
aquarius_	you mean i definitely should look forward to it? :)
MutantTurkey	yes! it's gonna be good
aquarius_	it's a deal :)
MutantTurkey	:)
MutantTurkey	you _could_ technically install the SVN version now if you wanted
aquarius_	so far no serious probs detected.... perhaps only Konqueror that brings up some weird error. But actually in KDE 4.4 it brings up the same error, so i didn't count that... i read a bit about it on forums and it seems that there are many reason that might prevent this browser from functioning normally...
aquarius_	what's SVN? Enlighten me please
MutantTurkey	SVN is just what we use to help organize our code
MutantTurkey	it's basically a code management tool
aquarius_	surething...
MutantTurkey	and that is where we put all the new code in.
aquarius_	let me do it
MutantTurkey	think of it as "nightly builds"
aquarius_	wow.. i was just about to tell you that Synaptic doesn't work... but it works now
aquarius_	somehow
aquarius_	it didn't before
MutantTurkey	weird :|
aquarius_	yep...
MutantTurkey	I don't use syanptic
MutantTurkey	I use kpackage
MutantTurkey	they are both good though
aquarius_	yeah, i can use even aptitude
MutantTurkey	aquarius_: I actually have to split.  it's getting late and I need to do some stuff
aquarius_	but it's just faster with synaptic.. i've got used to it already having messed with gnome a bit :)
aquarius_	ohhh....
MutantTurkey	sorry :[
MutantTurkey	but I'll see you around I am sure. :)
aquarius_	it's ok mate... i'll be coming around since we've made contact
MutantTurkey	good night
aquarius_	sure, night-night :)
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KingSphinx	...and out of boredom, I'm trying to port Trinity's default QtCurve theme to KDE 4. It's slow going, as you might imagine...
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KingSphinx	Gah, I feel dumb. Turns out there's an "Export theme" option... makes my notes/documaentation on the settings near-useless.
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: hey about kickoff
MutantTurkey	i noticed you posted earlier
MutantTurkey	I am making progress fixing it.
MutantTurkey	It is taking more time than I expected however.
MutantTurkey	I have it working as a regular button, but a I am still having trouble making it popup correctly in the right spot.
KingSphinx	I wouldn't really know since I don't use Kickoff in Trinity (it's a fine menu for KDE 4, and nothing more), sorry
MutantTurkey	i thought you asked about progress ealrier?
KingSphinx	Yeah, it's just that I don't really know what I could do to help. IMO, it sounds like something similar to a padding issue, but that's the only real thing I can give.
MutantTurkey	I mean i've tracked it down to what it wrong
MutantTurkey	but I don't know C++ well enough  to fix it
MutantTurkey	still wroking it out
KingSphinx	Other than that, I don't really know what to say. And BTW, the Trinity QtCurve theme ports over rather nicely to KDE 4 :)
MutantTurkey	good! :)
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KingSphinx	(Though of course, this is no substitute to actually using Trinity :P)
MutantTurkey	:{
MutantTurkey	:P
MutantTurkey	night
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KingSphinx	Since I have QtCurve installed in KDE 4 already, would installing Trinity conflict with the current version installed or does the whole "install in /opt" thing bypass any conflicts?
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 553 filed by werner@hoernerfranzracing.de.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=553 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, quanta-trinity is unusable
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Z_God	is it normal the current nightly doesn't install at all on oneiric?
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aquarius_	hi :)
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kb9vqf	Z_God: No
kb9vqf	what is the error?
Z_God	I had problems with packages like perl-suid
kb9vqf	can you post the full output?
kb9vqf	everything builds on oneiric at this point...but installation was not teste
kb9vqf	*tested
Z_God	ok, sec, I will have to log on to my friend's notebook
kb9vqf	sure
* kb9vqf has no oneiric test system at this point
Z_God	ok, I'll put it in a pastebin
Z_God	http://pastebin.com/C0UPUF9Y
kb9vqf	Z_God: Looks like libglut3 was removed in oneiric
kb9vqf	...and replaced with freeglut3
Z_God	also perl-suid
kb9vqf	is there a replacement for that?
* kb9vqf goes to check
kb9vqf	(technically these packages aren't *dependencies* for Trinity to work, but the metapackage tries to pull in handy programs when it installs Trinity
Z_God	they are depends now it seem though, not recommends
kb9vqf	yes, I know, that's how Ubuntu did it originally and that's how I kept it :-P
Z_God	I don't know exactly how dpkg deals with missing recommends deps though
Z_God	ok
kb9vqf	it ignores them as it should
* kb9vqf thinks Ubuntu messed up again in their packaging
kb9vqf	oh well :0
kb9vqf	:)
Z_God	you think you can solve it?
kb9vqf	perl-suid is completely gone
kb9vqf	that will probably affect a handful of control center modules (possibly)
kb9vqf	though they are obscure
kb9vqf	this is why I am activly trying to get rid of the remaining perl modules in Trinity (replacing them with C/C++ apps)
kb9vqf	perl changes too often and is relatively slow/buggy
Z_God	ok
kb9vqf	technically it's the add-on modules that are the problem, but straight perl isn't much use in a GUI
kb9vqf	:)
Z_God	I wonder if perl-suid couldn't just be ported to the newer perl though
Z_God	it would seem the quickest fix
kb9vqf	oh, probably, but I'd rather spend my time replacing the few remaining perl modules with C/C++ ones
kb9vqf	the big one is already done (monitor configuration)
Z_God	ok :)
kb9vqf	and we have a bunch of bugs to fix still ;-)
Z_God	do you think kmozilla would already be packaged for a release?
kb9vqf	not 3.5.13
kb9vqf	the next one probably
Z_God	ok :)
kb9vqf	3.5.13 comes out real quick now
Z_God	I hope I can get the signals the other way around to work
Z_God	as you saw, mozilla->konq is working
Z_God	but there are some issues with konq->mozilla
kb9vqf	someone with your knowlege level could probably start working on some of the bugs in our bug tracker... (hint hint) :))
Z_God	I wish I had time
kb9vqf	yeah, I know
kb9vqf	I have the same problem
Z_God	the problem is that I have to spend quite a lot of time just reading the code
Z_God	I now know the structure of kmozilla
Z_God	so I know a bit where to look for things
kb9vqf	sure
kb9vqf	well, keep working on it then
kb9vqf	would be nice to have it in the next release
Z_God	I want to get those signals working so that back & forward can work
kb9vqf	I'm going to upload a new metapackage shortly with those dependencies repaired
Z_God	and then hopefully fix the bugs
Z_God	and only after that look at extra things like a context menu
kb9vqf	sure
kb9vqf	sounds good to me
Z_God	but the current code is already better than what SUSE shipped back in the day :)
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	It's actually active and builds, but I don't ship a Debian package (yet)
kb9vqf	hmmm
* kb9vqf wonders how much work that would be
* kb9vqf also wonders when the build is going to break because of Firefox
Z_God	I guess it never shipped in debian before, so there are no old scripts
Z_God	actually I tested it with natty
Z_God	against xulrunner-2.0 it compiles, but it doesn't link due to missing symbols
kb9vqf	right--it shouldn't be that hard, but I need to know ALL the files that are needed to make it run (.desktop files, .so files, etc.)
Z_God	against xulrunner-1.9.2 it fully works in natty
Z_God	so they removed some symbols from libxul which break it
Z_God	I wonder if we could indeed move this part to our own library or just copy the code to kmozilla and let it use the symbols that are still there
Z_God	the files needed to make it work are all installed with make install
Z_God	on the relevant dirs
Z_God	I don't know if you had a chance to test it yourself?
kb9vqf	no I have not I'm afraid
Z_God	one issue with the configure script btw. it tries to look for both gtk 1.2 and gtk 2.0 now
kb9vqf	pretty busy here trying to get as many bugs fixed as possible before the release :-/
Z_God	if you'd have the headers of both installed, things could break
kb9vqf	it shouldn't break, because the flags for 1.2 and 2.0 are stored in different variables
Z_God	but the headers overlap
Z_God	both have things like gtk/gtk.h
Z_God	I think it breaks when both are in the include path
kb9vqf	yes, and if any Makefile.am file tries to include both header flag variables that is a Very Big Error
kb9vqf	such problems should be fixed immediately :)
Z_God	ah ok
kb9vqf	suid-perl is wanted by the Trinity file sharing module
kb9vqf	I'm moving that to recommends as I did with Squeeze
kb9vqf	I don't think it majorly breaks anything important
kb9vqf	BTW if you can tell me which files are installed by the mozilla plugin I can throw together a quickie Debian package... ;_0
kb9vqf	:-)
kb9vqf	Z_God: ^^^^ Just pastebin the results of "make install" from your mozilla plugin directory
kb9vqf	that's all I need
Z_God	hmm, should be doable
Z_God	there will be 3-4 though
Z_God	because of dcopc and the separate xpart libs
kb9vqf	just pastebin the output; for now I'll throw it all into one package
kb9vqf	kde-bindings-extras or similar :)
kb9vqf	*tde-bindings-extras rather
Z_God	kb9vqf: http://pastebin.com/6AVEtyMf :)
kb9vqf	ok, thanks
* kb9vqf goes to throw something together
Z_God	great :)
kb9vqf	Z_God: I don't think I can compile this on the build system at this late of a date due to unknown dependencies, but I have added at least the .install file for future use
Z_God	yeah I can imagine it is a bit tricky with xulrunner & so on
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	if I had a couple weeks before release then I'd try it
Z_God	also I think if we really want to package it properly, there should be a built-in solution for the environment variable issues
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	so I'm going to hold off
kb9vqf	the skeleton of the package is there
kb9vqf	it just needs to be activate ;-)
kb9vqf	*activated
kb9vqf	BTW the packaging is in GIT hash b54509d
Z_God	I'll be looking forward to it :)
kb9vqf	you just need to uncomment the lines in tde-xparts-extras-trinity.install and rebuild
Z_God	ok, maybe I will test it when some things work better
kb9vqf	tde-xparts-extras-trinity is the package name I gave all the xparts stuff
kb9vqf	sure
Z_God	I first need to get through the gsignals stuff
kb9vqf	good luck :)
Z_God	but not sure when I'll have time
Z_God	need to know about 500-600 words of polish within 5 weeks...
Z_God	same with russian, but luckily I already know quite a few
Z_God	really looking forward to 3.5.13 though, I really hope this release will hit multiple news sites & attract attention to the project :)
aquarius_	me too :)
aquarius_	long live Trinity
* kb9vqf hopes so as well
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 347 from PATCHAVAIL to NEW.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=347 normal, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Amarok Sym Links Incorrect
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 353 from PATCHAVAIL to NEEDINFO.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=353 major, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEEDINFO, KOffice will not build with GraphicsMagick 1.3.12 or 1.2.10 installed
* Z_God is off to bed
Z_God	good night (day) all!
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 391 from PATCHAVAIL to RESOLVED INVALID.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=391 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED INVALID, subversion kwallet kde3 integration for 1.6 (taht only use kde4) for debian realy linux
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aquarius_	can anyone tell me how to setup default resolution?
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aquarius_	everytime i logon to kde it sets up the maximum resolution possible for my monitor
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Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: about cmake in the kdebase... will it be fixed before release?
aquarius_	and if i try to change it using screen resize in the tray it just brings me back to login screen
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 409 from PATCHAVAIL to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=409 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, disabling smooth scroll for html part
kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: What is broken about it?
kb9vqf	aquarius_: What graphics card do you use?
aquarius_	the only way for me to get 800x600 is by loging in to Gnome and then to end the session without restarting and loging onto KDE. It's fine that way. But next time i restart it's all back again
aquarius_	Radeon HD4200 integrated
Fat-Zer	as i wrote before tsak and krootbacking are buildet everytime...
Fat-Zer	and there is no conditional options for it
kb9vqf	Fat-Zer: Do you have a patch?
kb9vqf	aquarius_: Trinity does have the ability to set a default resolution, but if Xorg is crashing on XRandR access (bringing you back to the login screen) then you may not want to use it
kb9vqf	I would suggest setting up the proprietary fglrx drivers, then trying again
aquarius_	hm...
aquarius_	how do i do that?
aquarius_	tell me please.
kb9vqf	I think there is a guide online--search for fglrx and ubuntu
aquarius_	cause i didn't install any additional drivers..
aquarius_	i'm on Debian
Fat-Zer	i sended it to the ML several weeks ago. but now it needs one more condition for tqtinterface...
kb9vqf	ok, can you update it and re-send?
Fat-Zer	*tqt3integration
Fat-Zer	yes...
* kb9vqf is busy stamping out fires before code freeze :))
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 441 from PATCHAVAIL to NEEDINFO.
aquarius_	but listen, it works with the resolution needed. but only not in a normal way./ i have to step over from Gnome to KDE instantly to get my desired resolution
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=441 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEEDINFO, TDE's kdmrc defaults prevent kdm-trinity from working
aquarius_	i just want to make it stay there
kb9vqf	?
kb9vqf	You have to use the Gnome tool to set your resolution?
aquarius_	exactly
aquarius_	and it works that way
kb9vqf	the Gnome tool is more limited, and probably does not make the XRandR call that is crashing your driver
kb9vqf	this is an Xorg bug, not a Trinity one
kb9vqf	XRandR calls should never be able to crash Xorg
aquarius_	maybe, but when i log out Gnome and get onto KDE at once it remains the same as in Gnome
kb9vqf	yes, it will
aquarius_	drats...
kb9vqf	but you need to set that on startup, and the Trinity tools use XRandR extensively to do so
kb9vqf	(XRandR is a standard Xorg interface)
kb9vqf	Which version of Ubuntu are you using?
aquarius_	Again: Debian
aquarius_	Squeeze
aquarius_	amd64
kb9vqf	I wasn't here when you said that, sorry ;-)
kb9vqf	as I said I'm busy with getting the release in order
kb9vqf	Are you using the nightly builds or the 3.5.12 release?
aquarius_	it's ok
aquarius_	3.5.12
Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: sended
Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: you are doing great work!
Fat-Zer	=)
aquarius_	indeed)
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 550 from PATCHAVAIL to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=550 trivial, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, kdeartwork/wallpapers desktop-files translations are broken
Fat-Zer	btw: can you apply patches from bug #550 and #551 there are some translation fixes...
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=550 trivial, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, kdeartwork/wallpapers desktop-files translations are broken
Fat-Zer	t om)))
Fat-Zer	great=)
kb9vqf	aquarius_: If you can't (or don't want to) install fglrx then you can try waiting for the 3.5.13 release
kb9vqf	It *might* fix your problem
kb9vqf	then again it might make it worse
kb9vqf	it is hard to tell with Xorg bugs
aquarius_	i just tried to install it
aquarius_	but i guess it was just re-installed
aquarius_	i've had it all this time.. not sure
aquarius_	but thanks
aquarius_	and of course, i'm looking forward to any updates from you guys
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 551 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=551 trivial, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, some desktop files translations are broken
kb9vqf	aquarius_: So you were using fglrx all this time?
aquarius_	i guess so!
kb9vqf	That makes sense--it can be quite buggy
kb9vqf	Use the built-in tool to configure it
kb9vqf	don't use any of the desktop tools
kb9vqf	just because you got lucky with Gnome does not mean any other desktop's tools will work with that driver
aquarius_	i understand/
kb9vqf	Trinity included ;-)
aquarius_	ok.. how do i configure it? Where can i find it&
kb9vqf	on my systems it's the ATI Catalyst Control Center
aquarius_	hm...
kb9vqf	Look under System
aquarius_	ok.
kb9vqf	with proprietary Xorg drivers it's always best to use their own configuration tools--that goes for nVidia as well ;-)
kb9vqf	Intel however is quite well supported by open-source drivers and tools
kb9vqf	and Debian also tends to lag behind where proprietary software is concerned
aquarius_	hm.... weird, but i see nothing that sounds like ATI Catalyst Control Center here...
aquarius_	ah
aquarius_	no!
aquarius_	actually i never had it installed
aquarius_	it was a different driver named...
aquarius_	xserver-xorg-video-radeon
aquarius_	and i added fglrx, now it's there
kb9vqf	that is also quite buggy :-P
aquarius_	there's two of them now... what should i do&
kb9vqf	Basically both drivers are buggy for ATI
aquarius_	i see..
kb9vqf	Google told me this: http://wiki.debian.org/ATIProprietary
aquarius_	ok... thanks
kb9vqf	just use kdm-trinity instead of kdm or gnome3
aquarius_	yeah.. i have no control package...
kb9vqf	ok
aquarius_	well that's what i do
aquarius_	it's only kdm-trinity now
kb9vqf	Personally I highly recommend Intel and nVidia
kb9vqf	ATI has been a problem as long as I have been using Linux
kb9vqf	and continues to be a problem even today
kb9vqf	I know some laptops only have ATI...but where you have a choice... :)
kb9vqf	Some work is being done to fix the ATI drivers, but I can guarantee that it is not in Debian Squeeze: http://blogs.gentoo.org/nightmorph/2011/05/13/howto-radeonhd-4550-gallium3d-ut2004/
kb9vqf	Ubuntu Oneiric possibly, but that comes with its own set of problems
kb9vqf	Isn't Linux fun? ;-)
aquarius_	i see...
aquarius_	yeah.. hella fun...
aquarius_	Joke of the day:
aquarius_	Difference between Windows and Linux: First one you use, the latter is for messing around ;)
aquarius_	but man... people seem to like it.
aquarius_	that's the point of living
kb9vqf	Funny...I would have them reversed
kb9vqf	Linux is the one you use, Windows is the toy for playing games and watching movies
kb9vqf	oh well
aquarius_	anyways.. could the lack of propriatary drivers in turn be the cause of me not being able to adjust brightness and contrast in players? I mean nothing changes when i try to do that
kb9vqf	yes
aquarius_	i see, thanks.
kb9vqf	np
aquarius_	i guess people could have that reversed depending on which OS they're in love with ;)
aquarius_	hm....
aquarius_	tell me one thing, why doesn't a new line (deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian squeeze main contrib non-free) appear in Software Sources manager but in sources.list does?
kb9vqf	No idea, sorry
kb9vqf	That's Debian specific and I don't use Software Sources
aquarius_	ok. i see
aquarius_	well... i kinda get it, cause for non-free stuff you just use checkbox there...
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aquarius_	it worked!
aquarius_	thank you so much!
aquarius_	now i can at least switch between modes!
aquarius_	and the text in pure console is not tiny as it used to be
aquarius_	now to check brightness and contrast controls...
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aquarius_	how do i launch Control Center as super-user?
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Fat-Zer	kb9vqf: got some time?
kb9vqf	no, sorry
* kb9vqf will probably have to push the code freeeze out a couple of days in fact :-/
Fat-Zer	ok...
KingSphinx	The code freeze hasn't happened yet?
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pedro_	how to change the language of trinity?
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pedro_	how to change the language of trinity?
Fat-Zer	pedro_: in settings in kcontrol...
pedro_	but as I install the Spanish language pack?
Fat-Zer	the package name should be kde-i18n-${LANG}
Fat-Zer	or something like that
Fat-Zer	i don't know exectly about debian/ubuntu package names
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pedro_	thanks
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Zelator	erm...
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aquarius	i uninstalled ATI driver and now it doesn't start any desktop..
aquarius	what do i do?..
aquarius	all i have is console..
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aquarius	hi MutantTurkey!
MutantTurkey	hey what's up
aquarius	look, i have a prob
MutantTurkey	yes?
aquarius	i installed ATI driver beside of the one that was installed by Debian... remember i told you that if i try to change resolution it brings me back to login screen? Well that driver solved that prob, BUT... it made some of my applications fonts tiny.. that was weird, so i decided to remove that driver for a while, and after i did it i couldn't logon any desktop anymore!
aquarius	all i have is console!
MutantTurkey	you should use the driver for your ATI card
aquarius	well that's what i did
MutantTurkey	small fonts is probably just  trinity setting
aquarius	but it wasn't like that before..
aquarius	oh well...
aquarius	anyways, it doesn't matter now, i wanna bring back ANY desktop
aquarius	i'm on windows now...
aquarius	maybe i could enlarge the font manually, but for a moment i thought that wasn't supposed to happen...
MutantTurkey	I mean it might just be whacky settings
MutantTurkey	it's easy to resize fonts
aquarius	yeah, i gotcha
aquarius	sure.
MutantTurkey	that might just do it
MutantTurkey	if theres still a problem, i'll be here
aquarius	but i thought it was some bug you know.. besides, kb9vqf told me before that ATI drivers for linux are still kinda cheesy..
aquarius	sure, but could you help me to get onto any display manager now? All i have is console, i dunno what to do
aquarius	it happened because i removed the driver, but still i didn't remove the base one brought by initial Debian installation..
MutantTurkey	they are kind cheese
MutantTurkey	do you have the xvesa one installled?
aquarius	no idea
aquarius	but don't think so
aquarius	by the way.. after i installed the driver i also felt like boxes were moving jerky...
aquarius	a bit
MutantTurkey	thats probably because the ATI module is a bit stinky
aquarius	but most importantly... i could switch between resolution modes... wheee.
aquarius	yep.
MutantTurkey	not much you can do
aquarius	i see..
aquarius	ok.. let me try loging back on..
aquarius	see you in a bit.
MutantTurkey	okay let me know how it goes
aquarius	sure.
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aquarius_	hi
aquarius_	i'm back
aquarius_	but still tiny font
aquarius_	and no, it's not trinity thing
aquarius_	it's something about that driver
aquarius_	damn... it took me a while to bring everything back
aquarius_	actually i wasn't hoping that i'd do it
aquarius_	but somehow i used aptitude and brought this driver back
aquarius_	and desktop started
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aquarius_	http://www.mail-archive.com/scientific-linux-users@listserv.fnal.gov/msg06174.html
aquarius_	solved
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aquarius_	ok.. i'm back here
aquarius_	anyone?
Fat-Zer	i'm here but i don't know a lot about amd.ati video cards...
aquarius_	well.. everything is ALMOST well.... even brightness/contrast adjustment works.. but... font issue still..
aquarius_	let's say.. i've used 96dpi thing... now microfont apps seems to have gotten back to normal, but those which were alright before that have become larger...
Fat-Zer	sorry... i'm really indefferent to fonts looks, so i've never adjusted them at all...
aquarius_	well, they don't seem to bother you that much...
aquarius_	as long as you can read them and they don't take the most space on your screen your fonts seem to be ok ;)
Fat-Zer	=)
Fat-Zer	i even can't advice any utility to set them except kcontrol...
aquarius_	it's not the font that's the  issue...
aquarius_	before i installed fglrx driver everything was normal..
aquarius_	even if i enlarge font some of it gets normal but some even bigger than normal, you see... so either one way or another you get shit
aquarius_	and so far i see no solution to that....
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aquarius_	fixed!!
Fat-Zer	where was he problem?
aquarius_	and i did nothing.... just restarted... now i got my 800x600 forever with all the adjustments enabled and normal font!!
aquarius_	i have no idea mate
aquarius_	all i did was messing a bit with ATI Control Center, saved the settings... but it brought something else in...
aquarius_	and now it's all back to normal
KingSphinx	800x600? Can your monitor support any higher than that?
Fat-Zer	may be you just haven't restarted since last driver upgrade...
aquarius_	sometimes you have to restart several times... just to make sure everything's been done
aquarius_	KingSphinx, yes, but it's CRT and 1024x768 doesn't look nice on it. But i'm planning on changing it in the nearest future.
aquarius_	Fat-Zer, maybe.
Fat-Zer	CRT is hell...
aquarius_	whee..... now i've got a total package. uuahahahahah, it's ALIIIIVEE
aquarius_	well.. probably there are some other surprises waiting for me
aquarius_	i just haven't discovered them yet
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aquarius	anyone?
Fat-Zer	?
aquarius	ah.. you still here
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aquarius	anyone there?
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aquarius	hi
aquarius	anyone alive?
aquarius	alright... tell me, how can i solve Konqueror issue? First of all, is there any way to fix flash video problem in Konqueror OR how can i make alternative browser default one? I mean.. i doesn't matter if i assign it or not, it still opens Konqueror from some applications with links and such
Z_God	aquarius: when you assign another browser as the default for text/html it should always use that one
aquarius	Z_God, well no, that's the problem. It keeps launching Konqueror if i click on links in skype for example, or other messengers....
Z_God	it's probably a bug in those programs
Z_God	they probably use their own setting for launching a browser
aquarius	maybe.
Z_God	I use Psi+ here for IM and it works fine
aquarius	i use just Psi
aquarius	i'm on Debian
Z_God	it should work as well
Z_God	it doesn't?
aquarius	well no, it launches Konqueror too. But let me check once again to make sure..
aquarius	ah
aquarius	now it works
aquarius	BUT....
aquarius	yeah... from Psi everything works
aquarius	now... let's try skype again..
Z_God	skype is evil :P
aquarius	well yeah, but i need it ;)
aquarius	hey... just another stupid question: is it any possible to make KDE3.5 task panel look like KDE3.O one?
Z_God	probably yes
aquarius	i WISH I COULD DO THAT...
aquarius	those app buttons are better
Z_God	change the theme to keramik?
aquarius	they really get pushed
aquarius	nah... still not that...
Z_God	hmm dunno then
aquarius	there's no such thing in settings to make it look like KDE3...
aquarius	the difference is not that big.. but there surely is...
aquarius	let me show you..
Z_God	I know there is a difference
Z_God	but it's been a few years since I used 3.0 ;)
aquarius	yeah... i know..
aquarius	but i like its task panel more... there was something in it... oh well.
Z_God	I liked the KDE 1.0 one
aquarius	hehe
aquarius	well.. it's too much old...
aquarius	but yeah, nice too
aquarius	http://www.netbsd.org/gallery/in-Action/jschauma-kde3.png
aquarius	here.
Z_God	it's th de 2.0 look
Z_God	the kde*
aquarius	yes, but it's 3. 2nd looked also a bit more different.
aquarius	but almost the same
aquarius	http://linuxbook.orbdesigns.com/ch12/images/btlb1203.jpg
aquarius	here's 2nd
aquarius	look at the buttons... they're really pushed
aquarius	gives nice impression
Z_God	try the highcolor classic style
aquarius	tried man... all of them... tabs look almost the same for any of those styles..
aquarius	no big difference
aquarius	it's only the frame that changes...
Z_God	hmm ok
aquarius	but the rest is the same. It's KDE3.5 after all.
aquarius	so yeah, some things are a bit different here...
aquarius	hmm.. now links work in skype too
aquarius	they get opened in Chromium
aquarius	nice.
aquarius	weird.. why didn't it work before..
aquarius	anyways, Trinity did a good job.
Z_God	maybe skype fixed the bug on their end
aquarius	nah.. don't think so. It's probably IceWeasel that refused to be run...
aquarius	i wonder if Trinity can make new themes for KDE3.5... to make it look like KDE3 or even 2...
Z_God	I also only tested it with chromium ;)
aquarius	yep, see
Z_God	you could probably forward port the old themes
aquarius	yep...
aquarius	that's a good idea
aquarius	i'll try when they're back here
Z_God	they?
aquarius	guys themselves
Z_God	you mean the trinity devs?
aquarius	yep
aquarius	arent they here?
Z_God	yep, but it's not really liked they can spend much time on this really
Z_God	but patches, especially when they do not affect core components are easily accepted
Z_God	likely*
aquarius	hm..
Z_God	so if you're really interested in this, you would have to try to get it to work yourself & then send in a patch adding the theme as an extra theme to the current trinity tree
aquarius	i see.
Z_God	the developers are mainly working on core features
aquarius	well.. i really don't know how to do it.
Z_God	and bugfixes
aquarius	yeah, i understood.
Z_God	can you program a bit?
aquarius	not really..... i used to do some simple stuff in Basic....
aquarius	but that's about it.
Z_God	ok, you would need to have some C/C++ knowledge for this I guess
aquarius	yeah... probably..
Z_God	but first thing to do would be to install a system with the older KDE
Z_God	maybe in a VM
aquarius	if only i could find it at first!
Z_God	then you can easily check which themes are being used for what
Z_God	then you look at the source code in the KDE tree related to this theme
aquarius	it's hard to find old KDE
aquarius	dunno where to look
Z_God	what I did when I had to do the same ;)
Z_God	I just went through my pile of old discs
aquarius	well yeah, good idea, but i never used linux in the past actually :) So basically it's first time i'm on it. I've been using it for one week or so :)
Z_God	ah I see
Z_God	I do not have any discs here myself
Z_God	but I have them at my parents' house
aquarius	i bet it can be found somewhere in the web.. the thing is, ive tried already, but i didn't find anything... gotta search for it deeper. And secondly... how do i find just KDE3 separately from any linux OS?
Z_God	if you're really interested, I could make ISOs & send them
Z_God	separate KDE is on the KDE website
Z_God	but it's mostly source code
Z_God	and compiling that on a modern distro won't really work
aquarius	hm...
Z_God	the easiest way is to just run it in a VM
Z_God	I set up a SuSE 8.0 VM when I wanted to test things with kmozilla
aquarius	hm...
aquarius	well, i'll think on it mate
aquarius	i'd really like to contribute something to Trinity
aquarius	and i bet those themes would make it even more popular.
aquarius	i'm pretty sure
aquarius	basically it's just to change buttons man
aquarius	and to add a couple of frames
Z_God	hehe, if you know knew how many articles were written about KDE theming ;)
aquarius	oh really
Z_God	there was really a lot of criticism with keramik as the default theme in the older KDEs
Z_God	a lot of things were changed also due to that
aquarius	it's not very pretty actually.... toooo posh
Z_God	because keramik was considered 'too much' in some ways
aquarius	yep
aquarius	exactly
aquarius	over the top
Z_God	so in all areas, such things were removed
Z_God	also what you are talking about now
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aquarius	hi MutantTurkey !
MutantTurkey	hey!
aquarius	i've solved all issues concerning video and such
MutantTurkey	how are you?
aquarius	it's all fine now :)
aquarius	now tiny font, nothing
MutantTurkey	excellent. how did you work it out?
aquarius	i dunno.. i just ran ATI Catalyst Center and saved the 800x600 mode
aquarius	now it starts always in 800x600 just like i wanted and no tiny fonyt
aquarius	brightness/contrast adjusment works too in players :)
aquarius	all fine
aquarius	by the way... i had to install the driver back in console through aptitude!
aquarius	remember i was saying that desktop doesn't launch?
aquarius	i had only console and i brought the driver back using only aptitude... i wasn't even sure if i could do it...
aquarius	but fortune was on my side
MutantTurkey	so now everything is oky?
MutantTurkey	you seem like a quick learner for only being a few weeks into linux!
aquarius	yep
aquarius	yeah, someone told me that already :)
aquarius	one linux user that has been on it since 2006
aquarius	i consult him sometimes
MutantTurkey	I've been around for quite a while, but not too long
MutantTurkey	maybe since '07
aquarius	listen.. we've been discussing here KDE2-3 themes... tell me, is it possible to port them to Trinity KDE? It implies everything, tab buttons on the taskbar, some other minor but probably known features of old KDE interfaces....
MutantTurkey	kde 3.5 themes I  am almost positive will work with trinity
MutantTurkey	you might have to recompile them but I think they are comptable
aquarius	KDE3.5?
aquarius	it's already there... no?
aquarius	i mean.. the desktop is just fine, but i wish i could use KDE3.0 or 2.0 desktops
MutantTurkey	the 3.5 themes should be compat with trinity
MutantTurkey	?
aquarius	they are!
MutantTurkey	"desktops?"
aquarius	well, interfaces...
aquarius	task bar mainly
MutantTurkey	interfaces?
MutantTurkey	oh :P
MutantTurkey	is the current one not acceptable?
aquarius	acceptable!
aquarius	i just wish buttons were a bit different, just like in 2-3 :)
Z_God	MutantTurkey: aquarius has an old-school mood ;)
MutantTurkey	I am not familiar with how they used t obe
MutantTurkey	Z_God: I am aware :P
aquarius	Z_God, yess :)
MutantTurkey	Z_God: hey
aquarius	MutantTurkey, they looked almost the same, BUT..
aquarius	a few minor distinctions
MutantTurkey	ah
MutantTurkey	dunno
Z_God	I already suggested porting them as separate themes from the old version
aquarius	http://www.netbsd.org/gallery/in-Action/jschauma-kde3.png
Z_God	they would probably only need minor changes
aquarius	yep. I think so too!
aquarius	http://linuxbook.orbdesigns.com/ch12/images/btlb1203.jpg
aquarius	2nd
MutantTurkey	ah
MutantTurkey	they do look nice
aquarius	yep.. i do like the buttons.. they're really pushed, not just bolded..
aquarius	i mean the effect was carried out nicely.. and overall so classic :)
aquarius	oh well.. it's just a question... but would be cool indeed
MutantTurkey	classic is good
Z_God	aquarius: if you could find the subversion revision in which this was changed, it would be a huge help
aquarius	i'll do my best if you tell me what Subversion revision is?
MutantTurkey	I am sure that we could add a patch
MutantTurkey	aquarius: remember I mentioned SVN?
aquarius	yes
MutantTurkey	that is the acronym for subversion.
aquarius	ah!
MutantTurkey	so subversion is a "versioned control system"
Z_God	I have to leave now, good luck guys! :)
aquarius	wow!
MutantTurkey	basically we can see any changes made into the code
aquarius	bye bye Z_God
aquarius	nice talking to you mate
MutantTurkey	cya Z_God
Z_God	bye!
aquarius	MutantTurkey, interesting!
aquarius	what you do guys is a good deed indeed
MutantTurkey	and then when we make changes we "check" it into svn
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aquarius	i see
MobileTurkey	http://betterexplained.com/articles/a-visual-guide-to-version-control/
aquarius	thank you, i'll read that!
MobileTurkey	that may help you get a beter idea
MobileTurkey	it's rather long
MobileTurkey	but just read a bit and look at the pictures
aquarius	sure
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aquarius	haha, yeah, i used to do that myself :)
aquarius	i have lotsa copies with just minor distinctions but i still keep them all :)
aquarius	i understood what you mean
MobileTurkey	well for  a huge project, it's nessecary to use software
aquarius	perplexed...
MobileTurkey	?
aquarius	well... complicated i mean
aquarius	a bit here, a bit there...
MobileTurkey	yeah it's confusing
aquarius	a whole structure..
MobileTurkey	aquarius: chem class, gotta go
aquarius	sure! See ya, thanks for dropping by..
aquarius	:)
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aquarius	anyone there?
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aquarius	welcome back :)
MutantTurkey	aquarius: :D
aquarius	look.. i have another question..
aquarius	what's wrong with Konqueror anyway? Should i even bother with him or just use alternative browser?
MutantTurkey	what's wrong with konqueror?
MutantTurkey	At this point, there are browsers that do a much better job than konqueror, so why not use a browser that is developed  actively
MutantTurkey	?
MutantTurkey	We will be porting Konqueror over to Webkit though
MutantTurkey	It's on the "list"
MutantTurkey	I still use Konqueror for everything else though, it's a great file manager
aquarius	there's only one prob with it: it crashes on flash media
aquarius	and yes, i tried to reassign it to webkit.. but didn't work..
aquarius	as file manager it's ok at this point.. but as browser it lacks something..
aquarius	though i'm not saying it's bad, it's because of some crosslinking issues
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MutantTurkey	aquarius: It has some issues
MutantTurkey	we are holding off on them till 3.5
MutantTurkey	i mean 3.6
MutantTurkey	I think
MutantTurkey	we need to get this release out before we look at that
aquarius	ok :)
aquarius	by the way, in KDE4.4 there's the same prob
aquarius	i tried it
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MutantTurkey	yeah :|
MutantTurkey	isn't KDE4.8 out?
aquarius	yes, but i installed latest Debian along with its KDE.. it was 4.4...
aquarius	didn't upgrade to anything..
aquarius	well, i just tried it, now i'm on Gnome + Trinity
aquarius	and of course, i'm using KDE right now :)
aquarius	by the way, can i get rid of Gnome?
aquarius	i mean completely
MutantTurkey	hmmm
MutantTurkey	sudo apt-get remove gnome-desktop?
aquarius	let's try... but i'm not sure
MutantTurkey	not sure
aquarius	"Just open Synaptic, search for 'gnome' and remove any packages that you do not want on your system. Obviously, some of the gnome-libs may have to stay as part of your base install. This is to be expected."
aquarius	by the way.. question...
MutantTurkey	yes?
MutantTurkey	there should be a gnome group
MutantTurkey	actually, so you can uninstall them all at once
aquarius	what if i don't need Kopete for instance, may i delete it? cause it gets lotsa dependencies, including some package by the name "trinity-network". What does it mean?
aquarius	as for gnome group... in Synaptic "Gnome" environment as such appears to be not installed (probably newer version, but not the one i have)
MutantTurkey	hmmm
MutantTurkey	weird
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aquarius	weird what?
aquarius	that Gnome is not installed or that kopete takes a whole bunch of other things along if deleted?
KingSphinx	Just curious: nightly builds or 3.5.12?
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Z_God	seems trinity still won't install on oneiric
Z_God	there's still a dependency on libqt-perl
MutantTurkey	you should wait for the release
MutantTurkey	tim is still throwing up FTBFS fixes for oneiric
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MutantTurkey	Z_God: and you can't install that?
Z_God	it's not in oneiric anymore
MutantTurkey	ping kb9vqf
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MutantTurkey	let him know
Z_God	I talked with him about it yesterday
Z_God	it seems he removed only part of the deps that were not in oneiric
MutantTurkey	as lon gas he knows
Aquarius	i deleted Gnome
Aquarius	now it's only Trinity :)
MutantTurkey	we are not going to have oneiric ready till the 1st
MutantTurkey	Aquarius: excellent :D
Aquarius	:)
Z_God	yesterday there were even more packages as deps which weren't in oneiric
Z_God	I understand the goal is to have it working for the release
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	that is the goal
Aquarius	Opera is the best for Debian
MutantTurkey	opera is quite nice
MutantTurkey	I wrote my own browser however, it's quite to my liking
Aquarius	yes... it works better with java than anything else
Z_God	I was wrong about libqt-perl it seems to be a trinity package now, but it goes deepr
Z_God	deeper*
Aquarius	IceWeaseal jerks on it... Chrome doesn't execute it normally (some display glitches), but Opera just fine
Aquarius	i didn't delete it by the way!
Aquarius	i saw it
Z_God	ah yes, it depends on the wrong perl version
Aquarius	IceWeasel doesn't work with java anymore.....
Aquarius	dunno whyh
Aquarius	other browsers do
Z_God	Aquarius: try to open about:plugins
Aquarius	hm.. ok
Z_God	and see if java is listed
Aquarius	it opens, but it acts weird... gets stuck
Aquarius	never finishes the script
MutantTurkey	java just stinks
MutantTurkey	Z_God: what else?
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KingSphinx	Wait, Trinity won't build on Oneiric?
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Z_God	KingSphinx: it builds, but doesn't install yet ;)
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Z_God	MobileTurkey: I made a pastbin
KingSphinx	Ye gads, hope that's fixed before the release date...
Z_God	the issue is that libqt-perl depends on a old perl version
Z_God	http://pastebin.com/UJjBvrb5
KingSphinx	Fun stuff. >_>;
MobileTurkey	change the depend
KingSphinx	Though judging from that, I see that it's now kubuntu-desktop-trinity instead of kubuntu-desktop-kde3 :)
Z_God	I don't know who all has access to the build scrips the quickbuild system uses
Z_God	but I guess tim will have to fix this
MobileTurkey	KingSphinx: it's been kubuntu-desktop-trinity
MobileTurkey	the only reason kubuntu-desktop-kde3 package still exists is as a transistion package so that if you originally had it, it would continue t owork
Aquarius	can anyone tell me how do i execute gz package?
Aquarius	to install application
Aquarius	the thing is, i deleted that tool along with many other gnome apps :)
Aquarius	now i'm looking for alternative thing
Z_God	gz is just compression
Z_God	it stands for gzip
Aquarius	i know, but there was an app that unpacks/installs it instantly
Z_God	ark
Z_God	you should install ark-trinity
Z_God	it's a front-end for the gzip tool
Aquarius	aha.. ok
Aquarius	thanks
Aquarius	but i think i have it
Z_God	then you should be able to open the file with it
Z_God	but gzip is just a way to compress a single file
Z_God	anything can be in there
Aquarius	it just opens it as an archive, but how do i install the app?
Z_God	I don't know what you have
Z_God	but you only told us about a compressed file ;)
Z_God	if there is something special inside this gzip compression, and you also want to do something with that, you need to provide a bit more info
Aquarius	it's application that's supposed to be installed
Aquarius	Opera
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Aquarius	and that's how it is, gz
Aquarius	hm... somebody russian here
Z_God	Opera should have a deb
Aquarius	well, yes, it doe
Aquarius	s
Z_God	&#1085;&#1091; &#1080; &#1095;&#1090;&#1086;?
Z_God	;)
Z_God	better use the deb really
Aquarius	&#1085;&#1077; &#1074;&#1099;&#1087;&#1077;&#1085;&#1076;&#1088;&#1080;&#1074;&#1072;&#1081;&#1089;&#1103;)
MobileTurkey	anyway gotta go go go
Fat-Zer	&#1094;&#1077;&#1088;&#1092;&#1077; &#1079;&#1082;&#1097;&#1080;&#1076;&#1091;&#1100;&#1099;,
MobileTurkey	cya guys
Z_God	MobileTurkey: see you!
Fat-Zer	*wthat problems?
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Aquarius	Fat-Zer, &#1095;&#1100;&#1080;&#1093; &#1073;&#1091;&#1076;&#1077;&#1096;&#1100;?)
Aquarius	anyways.. just checking...
Aquarius	didn't expect any russians around here...
Fat-Zer	&#1085;&#1072;&#1096;&#1080;&#1093;=)
Fat-Zer	why?
Aquarius	))
Aquarius	as i said.. just checking :)
Aquarius	you could've been using proxy or something... so wanted to make sure that you are who you claim to be according to your IP ;)
Z_God	you're from Moldova?
Aquarius	correct.
Z_God	why use a proxy?
Aquarius	Z_God, who knows :)
Z_God	now, I wonder if you can figure out my nationality :P
Aquarius	people do lotsa stuff seemingly without any decent reason :)
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Aquarius	thanks
Aquarius	ok, i'm using deb now
Aquarius	i mean Kpackage to install it
Z_God	but opera won't have a gz package that can be installed
Z_God	either they have the executable compressed with gzip
Aquarius	i see.
Aquarius	thanks
Aquarius	Z_God, and where are you supposed to be from? :)
Z_God	or they would have a whole collection of files packed together with tar
Z_God	and then compressed with gz
Z_God	which would just extract to a subdirectory
Z_God	Aquarius: you couldn't find it out? ;)
Aquarius	no
Z_God	it seems the same way I used with you, works with my ip address
Z_God	for my location at least
Z_God	but I'm dutch
Aquarius	hoi!
Aquarius	:)
Z_God	!
Aquarius	ik wist zeker dat er wat nederlanders ook zijn :)
Z_God	wat doe jij dan in Moldavië?
Aquarius	maar nee.. ik ben niet nederlander... ik kan het maar een beetje praten :)
Aquarius	haha
Aquarius	ik woon hier :)
Aquarius	ik was hier geboren :)
Z_God	ok :)
Fat-Zer	really multinational channel=))
Z_God	en hoe heb je nederlands geleerd?
Z_God	&#1076;&#1072;, &#1082;&#1086;&#1085;&#1077;&#1095;&#1085;&#1086; :)
Aquarius	spreek je russisch ook? Of gebruikte je wat vertaler toen je mij iets zei? :)
Aquarius	echt waar?
Z_God	nee, geen vertaler
Z_God	ik kan een beetje russisch
Aquarius	oke... nog een nederlander die wat russisch kent!
Aquarius	kunt*
Z_God	ik zit trouwens in België atm
Aquarius	ja.. waarom? Heb je een russisch vrouw of heb je gewoon interesse om russisch te leren?
Aquarius	aha.. oke
Z_God	vooral interesse
Aquarius	aha.. oke.
Z_God	ik leer hier ook pools
Aquarius	ohh.....
Aquarius	ik zou het nooit willen leren :)
Z_God	hoezo niet? waarom wel Nederlands dan?
Aquarius	haha.. goeie vraag...
Aquarius	kan je eigenlijk niet vertellen kerel... had ook maar wat interesse daarna gaf ik op maar toch kan ik er al wat van he.. dus gebruik ik het af en toe :)
Aquarius	ik dacht dat het bijzonder is :)
Z_God	ja, je bent best goed
Z_God	ben je ook in Nederland geweest?
Aquarius	nooit :)
Aquarius	of Belgie
Aquarius	ik ben eerlijk gezegd nergens geweest behalve mijn eigen land :)
Z_God	dan is het helemaal bijzonder!
Aquarius	haha, jaa... zegt dat iedereen, hah :)
Z_God	in Nederland spreekt eigenlijk bijna iedereen ook wel Engels, vandaar dat weinig mensen snel Nederlands leren als vreemde taal
Aquarius	ja, dat weet ik wel...
Aquarius	meest buitenlanders wonen er al lang en kunnen ze nog steeds niet een woord nederlands, en hier zit je naast wat rus (die eigenlijk in Moldavie woont, derde wereld!) en kunt ie wel wat nederlands! Haha.....
Z_God	yep, de meeste buitenlanders die ik tegenkom hebben bijna geen nederlands nodig...
Z_God	alles is in het engels op universiteiten enzo
Aquarius	ja...
Aquarius	voor jullie is dat een soort dialect ofzo... maar ik vind het toch leuk :)
Z_God	enigszins wel ja, maar als je hier echt wil integreren dan heb je het eigenlijk wel nodig
Z_God	met alleen engels val je wel overal buiten
Aquarius	heb ik ook van gehoord :)
Aquarius	snap ik..
Aquarius	hoe heet je kerel?
Z_God	kan je dat niet zien? ;)
Aquarius	Z_God? :)
Aquarius	kom maar..
Z_God	welke IRC client gebruik je?
Aquarius	X-chat
Aquarius	ah
Aquarius	Julius
Z_God	je zou m'n naam wel moeten zien
Z_God	yep
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Z_God	ik zie bij jou wel alleen Aquarius
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Aquarius	maakt niet uit... zag ik wel vroeger maar even vergat...
Aquarius	Ja, bij mij is alleen maar Aquarius
Aquarius	mijn naam is Alexij :)
Z_God	hoe heet jij dan?
Z_God	ah :)
Aquarius	ken je zo'n naam toch
Aquarius	aangezien heb je interesse aan russisch
Z_God	ja, zeker
Aquarius	oke
Z_God	zit je ook op vkontakte?
Aquarius	erm... ja, maar ik heb er geen fotos op..
Aquarius	ik hou niet van sociaal netwerk
Aquarius	om eerlijk te zijn :)
Z_God	misschien 'ns een trinity groep maken
Aquarius	ja hoor.. goed idee
Z_God	Fat-Zer: are you on vkontakte? we're talking about a trinity group
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Aquarius	hey... misschien is het nu al tijd om weer eens engels te praten? :) Ik heb niks tegen nederlands, altijd graag, maar die mensen zijn ook benieuwd waarover wij het hebben :)
Z_God	ja, prima :)
Aquarius	:)
Aquarius	but are you originally from Netherlands?
Aquarius	just a couple of hours ago i've met one nice dutch girl at a game of pool :)
Aquarius	on playforia website..
Z_God	yes
Z_God	I moved to belgium only a month ago
Z_God	but my stacks of CDs with Linux distros are still in the Netherlands ;)
Aquarius	hmm.. i see :)
Aquarius	is it better in Belgium?
Z_God	2nd education is *much* cheaper here ;)
Aquarius	mm..
Aquarius	i see.
Aquarius	damn.. i should've been sleeping by now.. haven't sleep all night and day long...
Z_God	what's the time there?
Aquarius	10:30
Z_God	you should talk with Fat-Zer btw
Aquarius	well for me it's pretty much late
Aquarius	surething
Z_God	I don't fully get his sleeping hours either ;)
Aquarius	well... actually i'm already tired of constant shifts in my schedule....
Aquarius	i hate sleeping during a day!
Z_God	what kind of job do you have?
Aquarius	erm... would you mind if i don't tell? :)
Aquarius	well.. actually i'm a freelancer.
Aquarius	but i don't get orders regularly.
Z_God	in which area?
Aquarius	some translations, minor headhunting, sorting out stuff and making database for.. one dutch guy :)
Aquarius	he's SAP consultant
Aquarius	in The Hague.
Aquarius	he gets me to do some business too.
Aquarius	occassionally.
Z_God	http://vkontakte.ru/club31447113
Z_God	I see :)
Aquarius	ah.. let me see...
Aquarius	done ;)
Z_God	I need a bigger image
Z_God	great :)
Z_God	the logo on the site is too small
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Z_God	I guess nobody here knows where the art is exactly in svn...
Aquarius	hm.. i'm not even sure what you're talking about...
Z_God	I just wanted some pics
Z_God	got them now :)
Z_God	looks bettre now
Z_God	better*
Aquarius	let's see...
Z_God	maybe one on G+ as well
Z_God	and facebook
Aquarius	yeah, well done :)
Aquarius	but it's more like KDE only... better to put there TDE too...
Aquarius	oh
Aquarius	sorry
Aquarius	it's T
Aquarius	weird... never noticed that..
Z_God	hehe ;)
Z_God	it used to be a K ;)
Aquarius	aha
Aquarius	i'm going to sleep fellas.
Aquarius	see ya all, thanks for all :)
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Fat-Zer	kinfocenter don't display any help...
Fat-Zer	any ideas whY?
Fat-Zer	ok... it searchs documentation in ${KDEDIR}/share/doc/kde/HTML
Fat-Zer	but i buildet it with -DHTML_INSTALL_DIR="${KDEDIR}/share/doc/HTML
Fat-Zer	ok... another cmake bugreport...
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Fat-Zer	i don't want to look where the problem... i'll just crete a symlink...
MutantTurkey	o/
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: what problem?
Fat-Zer	apps search documentation under ${KDEDIR}/share/doc/kde/HTML path
Fat-Zer	but i compiled evrething with  -DHTML_INSTALL_DIR="${KDEDIR}/share/doc/HTML
Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: not really a big deal...
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Fat-Zer	somebody knowes what is the package tqt3integration?
* Fat-Zer fells that kdebase becomes a huge heap of garbage...
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xiaoy	how come trinity doesn't work if installed on ubuntu lucid?
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xiaoy	apter installing from the repos, results in a dependencies error when i reuse apt-get
xiaoy	so the only option is to ar-get install -f and remove trinity
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xiaoy	Iget this error:  /var/cache/apt/archives/kdelibs-data-kde3_4%3a3.5.12-0ubuntu6+r1152788_all.deb
xiaoy	E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
xiaoy	thanks
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cpatrick08	i was wondering when the iso for oneiric will be available
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Fat-Zer	can somebody say if svg images are supported in svn version?
Z_God	I don't think so...
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Fat-Zer	Z_God: so you can't open svg immages too?
Z_God	ah no, just opening them should allow viewing
Z_God	but maybe you need smth like ksvg installed
Z_God	I thought you meant for the icons in the DE itself, I think those are all converted to PNG or XPM
Z_God	konqueror's SVG renderer is extremely slow as far as I can remember though
Z_God	I need to leave now
Z_God	Fat-Zer: good luck!
Fat-Zer	ok...
Fat-Zer	i just can't set them as background..
Fat-Zer	and view with konqueror or something else...
Fat-Zer	cya
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Aquarius	hi
Fat-Zer	Aquarius: hi
Fat-Zer	are you running trinity svn version?
Aquarius	how's it kicking bro?
Aquarius	erm.. just 3.5.12
Aquarius	is svn = nightly builds?
Fat-Zer	yes...
Fat-Zer	i've got problems with svg images... don't know there is the problem...
Aquarius	i see. Well, i don't even know what that is.
Aquarius	hm
Aquarius	what kinda problem&&
Aquarius	maybe i have to go and check on it too
Aquarius	and also report back if any issue
Fat-Zer	can't set it as a background/can't watch with konqueror internal module...
Aquarius	ah..
Aquarius	you mean you can't use svg images to use as a background for your desktop? As for Konqueror - it's full of bugs, so don't bother, it's ok
Aquarius	they gonna fix it a bit following next upcoming release of KDE. At least that's what they say.
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Fat-Zer	I just need to know if somebody has the same problem in svn...
Fat-Zer	becouse the problem can be in my kdelibs or qt builds...
Aquarius	i see. Well.. let me do it too.
Fat-Zer	or even in my system libraries...
Aquarius	hm
Aquarius	i don't even see SVG anywhere.. i mean i can't convert anything to it
Aquarius	i'm more concerned about sound issues i keep getting every now and then...
Aquarius	have you installed pulseaudio?
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Fat-Zer	Aquarius: no... i haven't ever used it...
Aquarius	the thing is.. i'm compelled to use it, cause i keep getting problems with Skype, Flash and Wine
Aquarius	they crosslink somehow and sound goes off
Fat-Zer	you can find some svg's in ${KDEDIR}/share/wallpepers/
Aquarius	ah, ok
Aquarius	let me see
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Aquarius	i dunno where it is.. could you be more specific?
Fat-Zer	ls /usr/kde/3.5/share/wallpapers/*.svg[.z]
Aquarius	aha, ok
Fat-Zer	ls /usr/kde/3.5/share/wallpapers/*.svgz |wgetpaste
Fat-Zer	Your paste can be seen here: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/498433
Fat-Zer	here is mine...
Aquarius	hmm
Aquarius	wait a minute...
Fat-Zer	sorry, i can't help with sound issue... as i sad i've never installed it and i belive that pulseaudio arts and other sound daemons are evil. and i'm currently trying to run trinity in vbox.
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Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: hi!
Fat-Zer	got some time?
MutantTurkey	yes sir!
Aquarius	Fat-Zer, the thing is, i don't feel much like messing with PulseAudio, but i DO have to do it, 'cause there's no other way i can solve my audio probs. Apparently they haven't yet corrected many things in either desktop environment.
Aquarius	hi MutantTurkey
MutantTurkey	hey :)
Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: i've got troubles with svg's
Fat-Zer	can you try to set it e.g. as desktop wallpaper?
Aquarius	listen, i don't have such folder even
Aquarius	there's no kde folder in usr
Fat-Zer	you are running svn version isn't it?
MutantTurkey	I think Aquarius is running 3.5.12
Fat-Zer	Aquarius: it depends on distributin...
Aquarius	yep, i told him already
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: why what's up?
MutantTurkey	Aquarius: I think everything is in /opt/trinity
Aquarius	aha, gotcha
Aquarius	i knew it.. just forgot
MutantTurkey	anyone seen Xu_R or kb9vqf?
Fat-Zer	you should replase /usr/kde/3.5/ with directory where all trinity stuff goes to...
MutantTurkey	it should be in /opt/trinity...
MutantTurkey	at last that is what we are using
Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: haven't seen kb9vqf since sunday....
MutantTurkey	havent seen him in a few days
Aquarius	well, it works for me
Aquarius	svgz
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: so what s the problem with svg?
Aquarius	brb.. restart
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Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: i can't set them as background images/can't see them with konqueror etc
MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer: do you have the svg libs installed
Fat-Zer	libart -yes
Fat-Zer	and kdelib compiled WITH_LIBART=ON
MutantTurkey	huh
MutantTurkey	weird
MutantTurkey	let me try
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Fat-Zer	gtg anyway...
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MobileTurkey	ok
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 554 filed by f.couperin@online.fr.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=554 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, art_render_gradient.c makes kicker and konqueror crash
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tbottu	10f.couperin@online.fr changed the Component on bug 554 from kdebase to arts.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=554 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, art_render_gradient.c makes kicker and konqueror crash
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 555 filed by tiagomnm@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=555 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Resize and Rotate and KMenu
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 556 filed by tiagomnm@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=556 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Kopete Jabber support not working
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tbottu	10f.couperin@online.fr changed the Component on bug 554 from arts to kdebase.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=554 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, art_render_gradient.c makes kicker and konqueror crash
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 557 filed by nick@leverton.org.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=557 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, regression: krun command completion always fills in commands from PATH
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 558 filed by nick@leverton.org.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=558 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, regression: text becomes invisible in multi-line form entries
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 557 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=557 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, regression: krun command completion always fills in commands from PATH
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Aquarius	hey everybody
MutantTurkey	hey
MutantTurkey	I feel like a big jerk, I just bailed on band practice for my dad's church ( filling in for bass player while he's away) because I got tickets for the concert i want to go to
Aquarius	hm..
MutantTurkey	I don't care that much
MutantTurkey	but if she cant find someone to cover for me (she wont be able to )
MutantTurkey	I cant go to this concert
MutantTurkey	but I got my buddy to loan me 30 bucks and buy me the ticket to go with him, a few hours ago
MutantTurkey	so what do i do? :|
Aquarius	well... what happens if the church lacks a bass player just once? :)
Aquarius	i really dunno dude..
Aquarius	i'd not want to let them down actually... if they rely on me
Aquarius	but what depends is neccesity... what is more important at that point? Church or concert... and we should consider possible consequences, which is worse, you not having been on the concert or your absence at church? :)
Aquarius	hang on now... gotta log out and back in..
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 559 filed by slavek.banko@axis.cz.
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tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=559 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Kaffeine crashes while access to xine after startup
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MutantTurkey	Aquarius: I can still make it to church on sunday
MutantTurkey	just not to practice
Aquarius	ah.... then it's alright
MutantTurkey	but if i am not at practice i cant play this week
Aquarius	if you feel you can do it without rehearsal then it's good
Aquarius	hm...
MutantTurkey	I mean I can't play if i don't practice.
MutantTurkey	thats that.
MutantTurkey	but I don't want to play this week
MutantTurkey	I have an awesome concert
Aquarius	but who made it a point? Like you don't practice you don't play?
Aquarius	now wait... restart
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Aquarius	go on
MutantTurkey	there is a rule
MutantTurkey	no practice = no play.
MutantTurkey	we have a setlist of like 250+ songs we rotate
MutantTurkey	each time we vary it, different styles, intros, orders of operation
MutantTurkey	basically we decide how it will go on practice day
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tbottu	10mutantturkey@gmail.com changed the Status on bug 547 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=547 enhancement, P5, ---, mutantturkey, ASSIGNED, gtk-qt-engine does not support GTK3
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net marked bug 451 as a duplicate of bug 394.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=451 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED DUPLICATE, Problems with DCOP after using kdesu (Debian Squeeze)
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=394 major, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Problems with DCOP After Using kdesu
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 394 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
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cpatrick008	i was wondering when the oneiric isos will be available
KingSphinx	Probably shortly after 3.5.13 is released, which is around November 1st if I remember correctly.
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cpatrick08	ok thanks
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K`zan	Wow, big updates today!  Thanks Guys!!!
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 555 from NEW to NEEDINFO.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=555 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEEDINFO, Resize and Rotate and KMenu
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 384 from NEW to RESOLVED INVALID.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=384 critical, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED INVALID, plasma-desktop.kde4 is started along with trinity
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 560 filed by nick@leverton.org.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=560 minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, akregator no longer displays icons next to feed titles
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 558 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=558 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, regression: text becomes invisible in multi-line form entries
KingSphinx	So I can safely assume the code freeze hasn't happened yet?
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KingSphinx	Blah, KDE is getting really memory-hungry. With no other programs running, it takes at least 750 MB of RAM on my computer to run.
KingSphinx	And sometimes a weird bug will happen where my CPU is reportedly stuck at 100% usage for both cores.
MutantTurkey	yeah
MutantTurkey	thats that
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 561 filed by nick@leverton.org.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=561 minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Keyboard numlock light no longer works
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 562 filed by nick@leverton.org.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=562 minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, File conflict between basket-trinity and basket-kontact-integration-trinity
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 563 filed by nick@leverton.org.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=563 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Middle-click in Konqueror no longer pastes clipboard contents
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 562 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=562 minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, File conflict between basket-trinity and basket-kontact-integration-trinity
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 561 from NEW to ASSIGNED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=561 minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, ASSIGNED, Keyboard numlock light no longer works
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 561 from ASSIGNED to NEW.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=561 minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Keyboard numlock light no longer works
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 564 filed by nick@leverton.org.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=564 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, artsd cannot start
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 564 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=564 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, artsd cannot start
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 565 filed by nick@leverton.org.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=565 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, klipper action menu can no longer start a KDE app
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thistle_	Is there a binary repo available for Ubuntu 11.10?
KingSphinx	thistle_: Not yet, they should be available when 3.5.13 is released (November 1st if I remember correctly).
thistle_	Thanks.   I had to go with 11.10 because of my new hardware.
thistle_	I really hate most of the new desktop options
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kb9vqf	INFO: Oneiric packages built and are installable--testers welcome
kb9vqf	Release is Nov 1st (in 3 days)
kb9vqf	Last call for 3.5.13 patches--on Oct. 29 the repository will be closed for ALL UPDATE
kb9vqf	*UPDATES
kb9vqf	Tarballs will be built shortly after the repository is frozen (closed to all updates)
kb9vqf	There will be no Ubuntu LiveCDs this time around, unless someone would like to respin one
kb9vqf	LibreOffice integration will not be available in oneiric pending creation and submission of patches to the upstream LibreOffice project
kb9vqf	Spread the word! :)
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* kb9vqf mutters xyzzy! and is transported to a large, dark cave. In the corner stands a server rack. Low power processors litter the floor. Emblazened across the far wall are the words https://quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/~trinity/+archive/trinity-nightly-builds/+build/16324 in glowing green letters! The vision lasts for a second then fades away. You are now holding a netbook.
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MutantTurkey	last seen kb9vqf or Xu_R?
MutantTurkey	this release is definitely helping bring out some bugs and get them squashed though:)
MutantTurkey	which is execellent
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kb9vqf-offsite	MutantTurkey: See the tail of the channel log ehre: v
kb9vqf-offsite	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/irc/logs_current.html
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf-offsite: :) hey.
MutantTurkey	keep up the le awesome work!
kb9vqf-offsite	did you see the tail?
kb9vqf-offsite	I'd also like your help with the release notes if you don't mind
MutantTurkey	yes I can help
kb9vqf-offsite	I really don't feel like picking through the SVN changelogs--basically someone needs to do that and flesh out the outline that I started on the Wiki
kb9vqf-offsite	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Documentation/Releases_3_5_13
MutantTurkey	you might want to post that little  bit about oneiric on the nanounce as wel
kb9vqf-offsite	yes, probably
kb9vqf-offsite	I don't have a lot of time, donations are practically nonexisteent, and I can't justify working on LibreOffice at the moment
MutantTurkey	so what do you think the most efficent way to do this is?
kb9vqf-offsite	?
MutantTurkey	yeah Libreoffice is low proity
MutantTurkey	to work up the release notes I mean
MutantTurkey	go through the patches page? look at the git revisions for Qt3
kb9vqf-offsite	yes
MutantTurkey	should we mention that we are maintaining Qt3 ??
kb9vqf-offsite	I posted the TDE 3.5.13 starting revision on the Wiki
kb9vqf-offsite	go forward from there
MutantTurkey	okay I see it
kb9vqf-offsite	I did mention it on the Wikiactually :)
kb9vqf-offsite	about Qt3 that is
MutantTurkey	okay awesome
MutantTurkey	this release is already ramping up users
kb9vqf-offsite	With no LiveCDs I cant pull useful screenshots
MutantTurkey	at least we have people sending in last minute patches
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf-offsite: I will just make a "default" account and run trinity and take some screens?
kb9vqf-offsite	not reeally--last minute bug reports w/o patches is more like it
MutantTurkey	it looks identical
MutantTurkey	that too :x
kb9vqf-offsite	yes, just make a default account
MutantTurkey	and take some pictures?
kb9vqf-offsite	I didn't have any time for artwork so it will probably look exactly like 3.5.12 :-P
kb9vqf-offsite	yes
MutantTurkey	who cares.
kb9vqf-offsite	right
MutantTurkey	looks mean nothing because my default trinity looks nothing like regular trinity
kb9vqf-offsite	the look is pretty well stabilized at this point anyway
MutantTurkey	right
kb9vqf-offsite	default look that is :)
MutantTurkey	you see it and think "oh look it's KDE3.5
MutantTurkey	very iconic/recognizable
kb9vqf-offsite	so for larger features that you notice in the changelog fire up the changed app and take a screenprint of the new feature
kb9vqf-offsite	e.g.t he monitor configuration tookl
kb9vqf-offsite	*tool
MutantTurkey	right
kb9vqf-offsite	thanks :)
kb9vqf-offsite	did you notice the little note on the bottom iof the IRC channel log?
kb9vqf-offsite	(before we started this conversation)
kb9vqf-offsite	you might be interested
kb9vqf-offsite	:)
MutantTurkey	about the liveCD?
kb9vqf-offsite	below that
kb9vqf-offsite	where I ramble on about something
* kb9vqf-offsite is being cryptic on purpose
MutantTurkey	about the low power processors? :p
MutantTurkey	intel atom *cough* *cough*
kb9vqf-offsite	armel
kb9vqf-offsite	we now have armel builds
kb9vqf-offsite	you know, for netbooks :)
MutantTurkey	that is awesome
MutantTurkey	some arm processors are actually quite powerful
MutantTurkey	look at the beagleboard or pandaboard
MutantTurkey	they are well capable of running basic things, as well as trinity
kb9vqf-offsite	right
kb9vqf-offsite	and it's more likely for Trinity to be usable than, say, KDE4
kb9vqf-offsite	Trinity could be a killer desktop there :)
MutantTurkey	I am really excited
MutantTurkey	because of GNOME3 and Unity are so ridiculous
kb9vqf-offsite	can you also handle the oneiric announce to the mailing list?
kb9vqf-offsite	I am trying to get things in order here
MutantTurkey	yes.
kb9vqf-offsite	thanks
kb9vqf-offsite	getting the packages copied
MutantTurkey	announce + devel + users?
kb9vqf-offsite	yes
* MutantTurkey will be honest and say he hasn't even started on the arch builds
MutantTurkey	are you going to produce tarballs for us?
kb9vqf-offsite	make it good, triple check speling/grmr
kb9vqf-offsite	on the 28th or 29th
MutantTurkey	i'll get my dad to proof read it.
kb9vqf-offsite	probably the 29th
MutantTurkey	He's quite the nazi in that regard
kb9vqf-offsite	:)
kb9vqf-offsite	I'm seeing if any more critical bugs are going to crawl out of the woodwork in the next couple of days before firing tarball builds
MutantTurkey	should I mention the ARM builds on the release notes?
kb9vqf-offsite	that process alone could take 6-8 hours, then the upload could take another 12-24 hours after that
kb9vqf-offsite	yes
kb9vqf-offsite	note that they are onyl for Squeeze
kb9vqf-offsite	and rather untested due to a lack of ARM hardware here
* kb9vqf-offsite wouldn't mind a donated Ubuntu ARM netbook for testing :)
MutantTurkey	but you are cross compiling so in *theory* it should work
kb9vqf-offsite	*Ubuntu-ready
kb9vqf-offsite	I'm actually native compiling on qemu
kb9vqf-offsite	so it darn better work!
MutantTurkey	okay thats good too
kb9vqf-offsite	48 hours for koffice...the 400MHz emulated ARM is not very powerful
kb9vqf-offsite	though I can run 8 of them at once so it kind of makes up for the low speed
kb9vqf-offsite	anyway let me know when you have the release notes ready
kb9vqf-offsite	if I'm not here shoot me an Email
* kb9vqf-offsite probably WONT be here
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kb9vqf-offsite	MutantTurkey: You have Wiki access, correct?
MutantTurkey	yes sir
kb9vqf-offsite	ok
kb9vqf-offsite	just Email me when it's ready
MutantTurkey	I doubt it will be before tonight is up
kb9vqf-offsite	I'd prefer to have it in a couple days
kb9vqf-offsite	*within
MutantTurkey	we have people coming from germany on a high school exchange
kb9vqf-offsite	so I can proofread it
kb9vqf-offsite	ok
MutantTurkey	my mom is the head of foreign language at her district, so it's all hell for her
kb9vqf-offsite	I can imagine
MutantTurkey	leaves me to clean the house :x
MutantTurkey	but anyway, I only have 3 more rooms to go
MutantTurkey	:)
MutantTurkey	and then i'll get on the release notes
kb9vqf-offsite	sprechen sie Deutsch?
MutantTurkey	and announcement about oneiric
MutantTurkey	yah!
MutantTurkey	no very badly. I am quite competent at understanding it.
MutantTurkey	Ja rather :p
kb9vqf-offsite	very, very badly kindergarten level here too :-P
kb9vqf-offsite	ok, thanks
MutantTurkey	yep
* kb9vqf-offsite needs to run
MutantTurkey	run forrest, run!
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* MutantTurkey runs too
KingSphinx	Release notes? Is 3.5.13 finally finished?
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: due Nov 1st
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KingSphinx	Ah, I thought it was done early.
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 565 from NEW to RESOLVED WORKSFORME.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=565 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED WORKSFORME, klipper action menu can no longer start a KDE app
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 567 filed by f.couperin@online.fr.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=567 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, [ksmserver-trinity] dpkg-divert conflict
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Aquarius	hi
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ivansorokin	hello! is there anybody here?
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 570 filed by julius@zgod.cjb.net.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=570 needs packaging, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kasablanca packaging request
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Aquarius	hi
Aquarius	any living thing?
Strangelv	"Maybe
* Strangelv should be asleep by now
Strangelv	"What are you thinking of for combining the KDE 2 theme?  Graphical elements only, or structural ones too?
* Strangelv doesn't remember KDE 2 very well
Aquarius	oh, so you've read it
Aquarius	well, basically i'd like to bring back old taskbar. There are some minor things that make me feel better
Strangelv	oenly this part: <Aquarius> so... how's the idea of integrating KDE2/3 themes? :)
Aquarius	nice tab buttons
Strangelv	"and seeing the KDE 2 screenshot
Aquarius	yeah, i've been talking about it for a few days
Aquarius	people like KDE2 style. As i said, basically it's only taskbar that looks a bit different from 3.5
Strangelv	"I'm horribyl distracted and about to get even moreso: I'm trying to participate in National Novel Writing Month.  Trying to work out my characters and outlines before the starting gun
Strangelv	I've long longed for choices with the taskbar
* Strangelv was quite happy with the Windows 2000 taskbar
Aquarius	yeah.. you can't really customize it FULLY... there are some gaps...
Aquarius	i love Win 2000, but i can't install it anymore.....
Aquarius	and all because of shitty ATI drivers
Aquarius	those are not supported with Win2k anymore...
Aquarius	http://www.kde.org/screenshots/images/large/kde2final_2.jpg
Strangelv	"I bought a still shrinkwrapped box off of EBay a couple of years ago when I couldn't find any f my CDs for it, but still don't have it up and running anywhere.  I'm about to bera kdown and rebuild a K7 system to run it on and host my Windows disks so I can network them and look for missing files there
Strangelv	hmm
Strangelv	"I'll keep in mind I may need to hunt around for a video card specifically for that system
Aquarius	here's KDE2.... mainly it's only nice tab buttons (windows like that are really PUSHED and not just bolded) and nice frame for the tray section which is missing in KDE3.5.. i like that frame.
Aquarius	ok :)
Aquarius	i don't even know where to get that version even...
* Strangelv always runs his taskbar verticalyl on the left side and has since Windows 95
Aquarius	i never did that..
Strangelv	"So I can't actually compare it that well with what I have running on my machine
Strangelv	"It makes even moer sense now than when I did it then, given that most displays are 16:9 these day-s
Strangelv	"vertical screen area is precious; horizontal is cheap
Strangelv	"moreso with this display than others -- it's 1360x768
Aquarius	http://89.28.122.14:8080/snapshot18.png
Aquarius	my desktop
Strangelv	"The difference is more subtle than I can tell.  Then again, I've also been awake too long
Aquarius	perhaps that's the case
Aquarius	:)
Aquarius	but there IS a difference... tabs are first of all fainted and secondly when active they're just bolded... sometimes i don't notice good which is active and which is not
Strangelv	fainted?
Aquarius	in KDE2 it was just at best... in KDE3.0 too, but they already started to deviate back there
Aquarius	yeah, app names look dusky
Strangelv	"Pushed in or not pushed in depending on whether or not it's maximized?  ...or on top?
Aquarius	listen, tabs are not being pushed in KDE3.5. They just change colour and font fades in
Aquarius	and bolds
Aquarius	and that's it
Strangelv	"ja.  I finally figuerd out that they are in KDE 2... so this is the option you want to return?
Aquarius	YES!!!
Aquarius	i want it so bad
Strangelv	"Sorry that I'm being dense over here... need to look up a phone number and get to sleep
Aquarius	it's alright mate... i've been there
Aquarius	unfortunatelly pretty much recently... and probably gonna get there once again pretty much soon
Aquarius	however.... by me it's different.. usually i get more alert and sharpminded when i'm exhausted
Aquarius	i mean specifically due to lack of sleep.
Aquarius	not by any other means.
Aquarius	http://digit.que.ne.jp/visit/image/2004.10/coLinux_002.jpg
Aquarius	here's KDE3.0
Aquarius	but as i said.. it's already slightly deviated, like something was pushing them by the balls to make those buttons less impressive.
Strangelv	"So when are thep pushed in and when are they not pushed in?
Aquarius	as you see, active (pushed) tabs are not even darkened here
Aquarius	when active
Aquarius	when you click on it, maximise the window
Aquarius	it's about "pushed".
Aquarius	and when not it's obviously inactive app tab.
Aquarius	pushed = maximized and active.
Aquarius	in KDE3.5 dusky tabs are usually not maximized and apps are in the tray, but for some reason they stay on taskbar too. I can't explain that, it's beyond my comprehension :)
Aquarius	but i personally think it's redundant.
Aquarius	it only brings one in confusion. At least me..
Aquarius	http://www.digibarn.com/collections/screenshots/KDE%203-0-x/kde3-snapshot2.jpg
Aquarius	here's another KDE3 shot
Aquarius	tabs are pushed, but not much impressive this time. But at least i can SEE that it's pushed and active.
Aquarius	i wish it was at least like that
Aquarius	http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Kde2.2.2-1.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Kde2.2.2-1.png
Strangelv	"Describe the desired as an option historical behavior and file it as a feature request in http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net?
Aquarius	hm... ok :)
Aquarius	but a bit later. Anyway you're gonna sleep now.
Strangelv	Hopefully
Aquarius	by your comeback it'll be done i guess.
Aquarius	just do it man...
Strangelv	I'm also not a particularly useful person to explain these things to normally.  I do need to learn enough of the packaging system to start replacing graphics, but that's probably going to be the limits of my activitiies.  Also, not before December
Aquarius	sure. We can wait :)
Aquarius	but listen, it should be just an extra feature for KDE3.5 styles option.
Aquarius	there's only "classic KDE" thing, it should be like "KDE2", "KDE3" and so on
Aquarius	that'd be great.
Aquarius	people will stick to Trinity
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Z_God	Aquarius: did you still research in which svn revisions the changes were made to the themes?
Z_God	this is very important if you really want these things to return again
Aquarius	sorry.... i'm here now
Aquarius	now.. tell me one thing...
Aquarius	is that "SVN" here supposed to be revisions of Trinity as such?
Aquarius	then they may not exist... for how long has Trinity existed anyway?
Aquarius	i really dunno where to start.
Z_God	yes
Z_God	it's about the revisions
Z_God	all this info was always kept, you can back endlessly in the past, also starting from trinity
Z_God	you can really get a copy of every single version of every single file from trinity throughout the years from the start of the KDE project
Z_God	and svn can show you the exact changes as well, including who committed (made) them and the commit message associated with it
Aquarius	i didn't know that
Z_God	that's why I'm telling you :)
Aquarius	thanks!
Z_God	every decent software project keeps this info
Z_God	because it can be very important
Z_God	as important as the code itself maybe
Z_God	in this case, I would suggest checking out the part of trinity svn containing the themes
Z_God	and reading through the commit logs of some of the important theming files
Z_God	there is a lot of documentation available for svn, you should look at these functions in particular: co (checkout), log, blame and diff
Aquarius	ok!
Aquarius	where do i look?..
Aquarius	i mean.. is it on a website?
Aquarius	let's check..
Aquarius	found it..
Aquarius	hmm...
Aquarius	http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/
Aquarius	which folder, could you tell?
Z_God	there is ome stuff in kdeartwork it seems
Z_God	some*
Aquarius	aha
Aquarius	ok
Z_God	btw
Z_God	did you see this?
Z_God	http://kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=27731&forumpage=0&PHPSESSID=cewbuhgq
Aquarius	yeah, but it's only window style, besides Trinity has it too.
Aquarius	i'm interested in the Taskbar mostly
Z_God	ok
Z_God	it may give some hints though
Aquarius	Revision 132826 - (view) (download) (as text) (annotate) - [select for diffs]
Aquarius	Modified Mon Jan 21 02:32:05 2002 UTC (9 years, 9 months ago) by gallium
Aquarius	Original Path: trunk/kdeartwork/styles/Makefile.am
Aquarius	File length: 17 byte(s)
Aquarius	Diff to previous 118689
Aquarius	Clean out all the old lingering KDE2 styles.
Z_God	http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/kdelibs/kstyles/
Z_God	seems there are the main styles
Z_God	also look at rev. 514714
Aquarius	ok
Z_God	http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/kdelibs/kstyles/plastik/plastik.cpp?view=log
Z_God	seems this give a lot of info
Z_God	plastik was only added in kde 3.3 or smth like that though
Z_God	but you get the idea on where to look :)
Aquarius	yeah, but why do you keep tracking plastik stuff?
Z_God	I don't know where the changes are
Z_God	but I think they could be in there
Z_God	you could also consider the kicker sources
Z_God	http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/kdebase/kicker/taskbar/taskbar.cpp?view=log
Aquarius	it's first of all KDE2/3.0 and classic styles
Aquarius	no plastik
Aquarius	ooh.. let's see
Aquarius	Add initial support for Kicker "Deep Buttons", a more highly textured style than the normal "flat" Kicker GUI
Aquarius	Add preliminary GUI and configuration structures needed for hot-resizing panels
Aquarius	maybe this is it...
Z_God	406411'
Z_God	I think that one could be it
Aquarius	let's see
Aquarius	halo'd text, and three new options for taskbarrc:
Aquarius	DrawButtons
Aquarius	HaloText
Aquarius	ShowButtonOnHover
Aquarius	these probably won't make it into the config dialog like this, however.
Aquarius	i'm considering adding a "profiles" mechanism so you can pick between,
Aquarius	for instance, "Classic" / "Zen" / "Transparency"
Aquarius	406819
Z_God	try those out!
Aquarius	:)
Aquarius	ok :)
Z_God	it seems there used to be smth called mtaskbar in the past to do the reverse of what you want btw: http://web.archive.org/web/20060116025418/http://www.uni-weimar.de/~wolff3/index_taskbar.html
Z_God	I guess DrawButtons is the one you want from those options
Aquarius	yep
Aquarius	and a couple of frames
Aquarius	i want a frame for tray section
Aquarius	just like it was in KDE2
Z_God	"Turning this option on will cause the taskbar to draw visible button frames for each entry in the taskbar. \n\nBy default, this option is off."
Aquarius	well... they are visible even NOW... but they're not pushed equally to KDE2/3
Aquarius	they just bold
Aquarius	by default it's off, yes.
Z_God	I just quote this description of the option
Z_God	the*
Aquarius	i see
Z_God	so edit your taskbarrc and kill & restart kicker ;)
Aquarius	:)
Z_God	I have to go off now
Z_God	will be interesting to hear if you get some things to work :)
Z_God	good luck!
Aquarius	see ya :)
Aquarius	thanks
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ivansorokin	how can I install TDE on ubuntu oneric? I looked in http://www.trinitydesktop.org/installation.php but it has PPA only for maverick and before.
ivansorokin	also, is there any plans about future of TDE? qt4 porting or something?
Aquarius	new versions for sure ;)
Aquarius	3.5.13 is coming up soon.
Aquarius	i'm not one from the crew, so i can't tell.
Aquarius	by the way, today i encountered the same problem, tried out Ubuntu, but couldn't find Trinity KDE for it.
Aquarius	so i just gave it up.
Aquarius	&#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1074;&#1077;&#1090;, &#1082;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1090;&#1080;.
ivansorokin	&#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1074;&#1077;&#1090;
ivansorokin	=)
ivansorokin	how do you how I know russian?
Aquarius	doesn't your name tell? :)
ivansorokin	ye, that's right
Aquarius	so i'm just holding on to Debian, i've already got used to it, and i find Ubuntu overly plastic and mainstream and actually uncomfortable.
ivansorokin	I think I'll send my questions to mailing list
Aquarius	try.
ivansorokin	I was thought to switch to debian many times, is it really better?
Aquarius	i like it more.
Aquarius	and i chose it immediatelly as i decided to check out linux in general. I dunno why, i guess i liked the name in first place ;)
Aquarius	and yeah, it's not too bloated, it's not too complicated and yet not childish, it's just fine.
ivansorokin	and one more question. Is TDE more stable that KDE4 (for example KDE 4.7)?
Aquarius	can't tell, by me it works just fine. No errors and stuff... although i'm not doing that much yet, so i dunno. As for KDE4, i didn't use it for long, i can only tell that i didn't really like it :) That's about as much as i can tell you.
ivansorokin	" it's not too bloated, it's not too complicated and yet not childish, it's just fine." -- that's sounds good
Aquarius	yep. You might as well try it out.
ivansorokin	I definitely give it a shot
Aquarius	BUT... personally i'm having some sound issues. Minor but quite disturbing sometimes. But let this not be a specimen of Debian stability to you, 'cause it could be some software/hardware incompatibility... i dunno... but i have probs with skype.
Aquarius	even if you do get some probs, you can fix them i believe. Even i can do it. But you have to study those mixers and stuff... Alsa/PulseAudio and such
Aquarius	try it, you might not get ANY trouble... but im just telling you that Debian ain't 100% perfect either. So you may expect some dirty tricks. Though if you get rid of them then it'd be once and for all.
Aquarius	Debian looks more serious and it has old Gnome interface if not KDE chosen.
Aquarius	not that Unity crap in latest Ubuntu
Aquarius	just plain standard Gnome.
Aquarius	not to mention that you can install TDE on it easily.
jumpship	I believe tde pkgs for oneric will be out on the first of the month, I know it's being worked on, but I don't follow ubuntu stuff very close
Aquarius	me neither. I dunno anything about it. I just tried it out today to see if i get the same sound issues.
Aquarius	well... i didn't really check on it deeply.. i got fed up of the whole crap OS faster than i could actually find out.
ivansorokin	KDE4 totally pissed me off when I read this bug (https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=154535 -- a bug to allow to remove nasty useless "plasma" button)
tbottu	04Bug 154535: was not found.
Aquarius	i didn't like the way it looks in first place. I like classic appearance. Without no plasma/aero/Win 7 impersonating crap.
jumpship	ubuntu is debian at it's base, some difference, but very similar
Aquarius	in other words, long live Trinity :)
Aquarius	jumpship, , we know :)
Aquarius	and HEY!
Aquarius	man, where have you been? :)
ivansorokin	I can cope with it looks
Aquarius	ivansorokin, not me.
ivansorokin	but i can't copy when some tells me: you don't know how to use your desktop, We'll teach you how to use you desktop
ivansorokin	*copy->cope
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 571 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=571 normal, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, dbus-qt package names are unclear
ivansorokin	I just wondering what a crazy guys manage KDE now
Aquarius	thought on using Gnome instead?
ivansorokin	yes, it's the same crap
ivansorokin	"you don't need to have this option"
Aquarius	it's Unity
Aquarius	i suppose.
Aquarius	but if you want old Gnome then again you can try Debian.
ivansorokin	i'm not a gnome fan really
Aquarius	i see.
ivansorokin	Aquarius do you have a SIP accout?
Aquarius	what's that?
ivansorokin	voicechat
ivansorokin	like skype
Aquarius	ah.. no.. why?
ivansorokin	but free as in freedom
Aquarius	well skype is also free. You don't pay to make it work, do you ;)
ivansorokin	free as in "free speech", not "free beer"
Aquarius	i don't dig your analogy to be honest. Don't you speak for free in skype? Sorry for being too much straight/
ivansorokin	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratis_versus_libre
Aquarius	whatever
ivansorokin	long story short, free software is not about cost, it has other definition. Realy free software can be sold.
jumpship	wasn't skype bought by Microsoft?
Aquarius	jumpship, i heard that too.
Aquarius	ivansorokin, what do you care if you can use it for free?
ivansorokin	it can become not free one day
jumpship	Thats a very old discussion, and if you've never been burned by free cost but closed software, you luckier than me
Aquarius	ivansorokin, so? Wait till that happens and then we shall see. Anything can become not free one day.
ivansorokin	and I don't want to force other people to use skype, because I'm doing so.
Aquarius	neither am i forcing anyone.
Aquarius	i'm using it because i've got lotsa people there to talk and today it's the only messenger known by me that allows me to voicechat.
ivansorokin	"Anything can become not free one day." -- not really, I hope software under GPL  never will become not free.
ivansorokin	"i'm using it because i've got lotsa people there to talk and today it's the only messenger known by me that allows me to voicechat." -- i understand
ivansorokin	let's change the topic
ivansorokin	could somebody explain me why pulseaudio is neccessary? Why not use ALSA directly?
jumpship	ivansorokin: if you really want to use oneric, I'd wait a few days (nov 1st) trinity went into freeze and tim is prob building pkgs as we speak
ivansorokin	ok
Aquarius	in my case i had to install it, 'cause also couldn't take on multistreaming audio. Something was taking over always.
Aquarius	PulseAudio does it better.
ivansorokin	will they be available in PPA?
Aquarius	meaning... i would play music for instance in a player and i'd try using skype at the same time or playing youtube/flash video, and it would jam
Aquarius	some people are content with ALSA only.
ivansorokin	what is "multistreaming audio"?
Aquarius	when you have multiple sources, not just one
ivansorokin	"would play music for instance in a player and i'd try using skype at the same time or playing youtube/flash video, and it would jam" -- really?
Aquarius	example: skype audio + flash audio/video, music player etc
Aquarius	yes. That's my prob.
Aquarius	and it's still there, and i wanna kill it once and for all.
ivansorokin	I have see this on my PC.
Aquarius	but it's better now. Pulse does its magic.
Aquarius	you mean you've experienced the same?
ivansorokin	never
jumpship	it hadware dependant
Aquarius	yep, exactly jumpship
jumpship	it's hardware dependant
jumpship	some hardware can mix
Aquarius	it's probably my hardware not complying entirely with the software
jumpship	alsa is supposed to use it's dmix plugin when the hardware can't, but it's been iffy for me
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ivansorokin	to be honest, I experienced the opposite. When pulseaudio daemon was running sound didn't work. Even the programs that use ALSA directly.
Aquarius	i had the same
Aquarius	there was no sound at all
Aquarius	jumpship helped me. You can make it work, but it may take shitloads of time...
MutantTurkey	o/
MutantTurkey	what is this?
Aquarius	many people tend to have problems with pulse, which is why most of them are not really fond of it. You can see here and there on the web that pulseaudio is damn shit and so on
Aquarius	hey MutantTurkey
Aquarius	:)
jumpship	alsa is just a mess, I spent a lot of time trying to understand, and I still don't
MutantTurkey	hey
MutantTurkey	alsa isn't so bad:P
MutantTurkey	alsa is okay, the random other systems are bad
jumpship	Have you seen the docs?
MutantTurkey	see this
MutantTurkey	http://blogs.adobe.com/penguinswf/files/penguinswf/linuxaudio.png
jumpship	I hate the sound servers too, they only exist because of problems with alsa
ivansorokin	jumpship, i agree that alsa is the mess too
Aquarius	it's not optimized for many devices yet.
ivansorokin	but i'm not sure one's can create a working system on top of buggy
jumpship	well, it's more of a, if alsa was better, things could be cleaner
Aquarius	so yeah.. either you're lucky or you work your ass off to make it function at its best.
jumpship	I'd rather just see all programs use jack and jack use hardware direct, but dreaming it don't make it happen
ivansorokin	jack has cleaner api tha alsa?
ivansorokin	*than
jumpship	I don't know about the programming end, I like jack from a user end
ivansorokin	why it is better from user end?
Aquarius	because he likes it more :)
Aquarius	it suits his personal needs
ivansorokin	and ALSA don't?
jumpship	I just like being able to route audio on the fly
jumpship	alsa and jack are different animals, alsa is low level
ivansorokin	a bad thing is that everybody what one working api, not a 3 buggy ones
MutantTurkey	JACK is where its at
MutantTurkey	get on it.
MutantTurkey	it's the best in my opinion
MutantTurkey	especially for routing needs.
MutantTurkey	but then again, if you're not mixing music you don't need it
MutantTurkey	pulse is stepping up, but it still stinks
ivansorokin	i don't use routing really,and i'm really don't know why i need it =)
MutantTurkey	EXACTLY
MutantTurkey	thats why we don't need all these layers
MutantTurkey	1st of all, OSS needs to go away. it's been dead for a long time AFAIK
ivansorokin	i heard OSS is used in FreeBSD
MutantTurkey	it should just be ALSA - {jackd, pulseaudio} - {gstreamer,phonon}
MutantTurkey	thats it
MutantTurkey	left is lower
ivansorokin	so it is the only one portable interface
MutantTurkey	i hate gstreamer and phonon but still
MutantTurkey	its good for programmers that dont want to deal with it
Aquarius	MutantTurkey, is Konqueror gonna be fixed in 3.5.13?
ivansorokin	gstreamer and phonon are not similar to DirectShow, which I hate with passion
MutantTurkey	yes its fixed
MutantTurkey	Aquarius: if you are talking about the certs
MutantTurkey	Aquarius: right now we are in a complete code freeze though
ivansorokin	guys, where could i find trinity changelog? I don't see it on a website
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MutantTurkey	ivansorokin: yes
MutantTurkey	http://trinitydesktop.org/patches/
MutantTurkey	but that is a LONG list
MutantTurkey	and there is just mostly fixes and commits there
MutantTurkey	we aren't so organized :P
MutantTurkey	next release we will have a better log
KingSphinx	Did I miss something?
MutantTurkey	we are working on one in the wiki
MutantTurkey	www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Documentation/Releases_3_5_13
ivansorokin	oh, this is commit list
MutantTurkey	that is still incomplete
MutantTurkey	see the wiki ling
ivansorokin	i means something like release notes
MutantTurkey	its still not finished
MutantTurkey	yes thats it
MutantTurkey	needs work
* MutantTurkey is supposed to be doing it :x
ivansorokin	yes, wiki this is relevant. Thanks!
MutantTurkey	yep
MutantTurkey	anyway I gotta go guys
MutantTurkey	i'll be back later
MutantTurkey	:P
Aquarius	see ya
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MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: the other day you said "Ah, I thought it was done early" it is done. the packages are just being built. due nov 1
KingSphinx	Just over a day from now... :D
MutantTurkey	x`yes
MutantTurkey	gotta get packages done :x
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chemtail	Is extroot supposed to be working in trunk?
chemtail	I'm using the standard setup through /etc/fstab as recommended in the howto, with an ext4 partition that mounts fine manually, but it ain't working.
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Aquarius	ahoy there, pardners
MutantTurkey	ahoy
MutantTurkey	T minus 24 hours
Aquarius	how's it kicking Mutant?
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Aquarius	looking forward to fixed Konqueror :)
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chemtail	Oh, lord..  asking openwrt questions in the trinity desktop channel.
chemtail	sry guise :p
KingSphinx	And that is why you keep track of what channel you're in. :P
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MutantTurkey	where is tim RAHH!
KingSphinx	Major issues?
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MobileTurkey	KingSphinx: no no no
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MobileTurkey	just need to talk about the kgtk wrapper :P
KingSphinx	Is that the thing that allows GTK apps to use Trinity's "open files" dialog?
MobileTurkey	yes
MobileTurkey	except I am doing work on the GTK3 bit
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Z_God	Aquarius: you still managed to try those options?
Aquarius	hey Z_God
Aquarius	sorry, just came back
Z_God	np
Aquarius	no man.. if you mean that app i couldn't download it, the link is dead
Z_God	no, I mean the kicker options you found in svn
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Aquarius	ah..... not really... frankly to say man i don't know how to do it...
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Z_God	Aquarius: search for this file in your .kde3 or .trinity directory
Z_God	I think it was taskbarrc
Z_God	open it in a texteditor
Aquarius	aha
Z_God	and it should be more obvious how to change options
Z_God	not all options in it actually have a UI to change them
Z_God	and some you may even had to add yourself
Aquarius	i got it
Aquarius	interesting, i'll try
Aquarius	for now i have another prob.. featuring skype again.. i can't host the calls
Aquarius	i mean technically i can, but sounds gets very cheesy... it's like breaking up badly.. however, the others hear me well.
Aquarius	i wonder how can i solve that...
Z_God	use a decent program to host calls I'd say....
Z_God	it's obviously a problem with skype itself, and it's closed source
Z_God	if you need something easy, I would advice Google+ for now
Z_God	not free either, but at least it works
Aquarius	probably...
Aquarius	the thing is.. i don't care for skype that much... but the people i know use it...
Aquarius	so what do i do, tell them all to use Google+ instead just because i'm getting problems with running skype on linux?
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A	Aquarius: yes tell them that.
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Aquarius	haha
Aquarius	great...
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Aquarius	but other people don't have problems with skype on linux... even in Debian...
Aquarius	damn... i think i'll just have to keep on fidgeting with pulseaudio settings..
MutantTurkey	oh pulse?
MutantTurkey	blech
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Aquarius	yep...
Aquarius	i had no other choice, with only ALSA my audio acts a way too funny
Aquarius	with Pulse it's so-so, but better.
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Aquarius	as jumpship has already stated, it's hardware dependant.
Aquarius	i dunno about Ubuntu though... but in Debian i'm definitely having some audio probs.
Aquarius	anyhow, that doesn't make my move to Ubuntu or any other linux based OS. I love Debian.
Aquarius	but audio apps in Debian have to be improved nevertheless.
Aquarius	first time i had probs with all the audio sources... i couldn't play audio in player and on youtube at the same time, there were taking over each other.
Aquarius	now it's fine.
Aquarius	but skype is still acting funny.
Aquarius	but nothing jams it at least.
Z_God	skype never works properly
Z_God	it's protocol is flawed in many ways
Aquarius	i see...
Aquarius	what problems did you have?
Z_God	crap quality, messages do not arrive half of the time
Z_God	and of course it uses its dirty routing tricks
Aquarius	didn't have the above said probs.
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Z_God	but both the software is not free
Z_God	and the network is completely closed
Z_God	even when you want to phone other voip phones, you need to pay
Z_God	I refuse to use software which intentionally limits its users, just to get more money
Aquarius	the thing is, skype was intended not to VoIP primarily but to voicechat within skype network as such. As for those extra features - nobody's pushing you to use them, after all they were never available for free in skype, so why to bring it up... i'm not speaking in favour of skype right now, i'm just pointing out the possible irrelevance of the remark given..
Aquarius	as for basic chat and voicechat it's been handling it pretty much fine
Aquarius	for free
Aquarius	and you don't have to buy skype initially to make it work, to enter any serials and stuff like that.
Aquarius	but i'm not arguing on the point that it's a shitty software. Perhaps it is. But if anything people all around the world have been using skype mostly in order to voicechat.. so.. conclusions..
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rzs19	hello
rzs19	i'am writing a small dock for tde, with superkaramba. http://netdragon.sourceforge.net/api.html#robo45 - createBackgroundImage. At first 6 Arguments and a little bit down, there stands 4 Arguments. Strange?
rzs19	well so i mus tcreate an image an resize the image, to get something like the background.
Z_God	Aquarius: it has artificial limitations put in on purpose
Z_God	this is enough reason for me to avoid it ;)
Z_God	and I will recommend friends to do the same
Aquarius	i understand)
Aquarius	however... when it comes to instant access and easy installation skype is the first thing people know.. most of them at least. Imagine you got a girlfriend from abroad and she wants to talk with you, and she uses only skype and she doesn't know what other software to use... what would you do? Refuse to talk with her? :)
Aquarius	thats the problem...
Aquarius	i guess you'll just install skype and get it over with :)
Z_God	I've had this case
Space_Man	rzs19: looks like the API has a typo
Z_God	we're using gmail now
Space_Man	other functions use long w -- width, long h -- height
Z_God	I could have installed skype, but it's so broken anyhow, why bother
Z_God	my friend also told me she has loads of problems with it, so I probably just saved us a lot of frustration with that :)
Z_God	I have people asking me often enough about an alternative for skype to know how broken it is
rzs19	yep i have tested it, it doesnt work, it needs only 4 arguments and not 6(but without width and height it makes no sense).
rzs19	tomorrow comes 3.5.13? *cantwait* :P
KingSphinx	I have absolutely no idea how to fix your problem, but it's really nice to see people still developing widgets for SuperKaramba. :)
Aquarius	:)
rzs19	well i have seen that all docks are death and the code was a little bit ugly, so i started with my own.
KingSphinx	I know SuperKaramba is in KDE 4, but it just seems thrown in as an afterthought.
rzs19	well i have used kde4 for a long time, but its not so powerful like tde/kde 3.5.*
KingSphinx	It just seems to fit in better in Trinity IMO.
rzs19	yep, kde 4 has its plasma widget.
rzs19	does any one use the universal sidebar?
KingSphinx	Also, while Plasma is very extensible, I don't like how it tries to manage the *entire* desktop... if one thing goes wrong, the entire desktop crashes. It also goes against the UNIX philosophy of having one application doing one thing well.
rzs19	kde 4 is too heavy, it has not too less buttons to manage settings and needs too much ressources.
rzs19	and i don't like the "maybe we should drop x11 and only start using wayland" statement.
KingSphinx	Tell me about it... Trinity uses only half the RAM KDE 4 does, and that's from the live CD.
rzs19	trinity uses just 1/3 from kde4
rzs19	i love konqueror and kparts, one thing is missing, splitting in konsole like splitting in konqueror.
rzs19	and sorry for my bad english, but i don't talk soo much - normaly.
KingSphinx	If people really do start dropping X11 for Wayland, what would happen to Trinity?
rzs19	will trinity be ported completely to qt4, or will there be a qt3 fork?
KingSphinx	Trinity is a Qt3 fork
rzs19	i cant life wihtout X11. my desktop environment is running inside an linux container(lxc). i use xdmcp to connect, so i need xdmcp, indirect rendering and xdm chooser.
rzs19	pulseadui streams the sound out of it :)
rzs19	so i can clone the container and simulate upgrades, or use different distributions, without overhead - funky cool :D
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rzs19	is there not tqt(or how its called) between, so it would compile with qt3, or qt4? i think it was "just" a kde 3.5 fork? it also forked qt3?
KingSphinx	Mhm, TQt is a fork of Qt3, with plans to integrate Qt4 support once development stops on Qt4
rzs19	okay :)
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Z_God	it's not fully accurate
Z_God	there is no Qt3 fork
Z_God	Trinity incorporates Qt3 and is the only path for Qt3 updates
Z_God	TQt is a layer between software and Qt to allow compilation and linking against different Qt versions
Z_God	it was originally meant to support porting Trinity to Qt4, but likely it will shift towards Qt4 integration instead (with the core still using Qt3)
rzs19	well, it seem that qt4 is not realy ready to use...
Z_God	yes, there are performance issues
Z_God	btw. there is no sense in supporting Qt4 when its development stops
Z_God	it would be more useful to consider Qt5 support if it fixes the performance problems
rzs19	or maybe i need a octocore cpu?
rzs19	maybe we should buy three computers, install MOSIX and hope it will give enough performance :P
Z_God	for smaller software it works ok
Z_God	but not for a full DE somehow
Z_God	although I understand KDE4 has ok performance now
Z_God	on modern hardware
rzs19	what is modern? is my dual core with 4 gb ram not enough?
rzs19	its a damn desktop and not a blown up 3d shooter.
rzs19	4.6.5 was okay, with 4.7.x i got in trouble...
rzs19	take KDe 4.x scroll in konsole, its slow.
rzs19	kate syntax highlighting is extreme slow. ocular needs damn much ram.
rzs19	write a long sql query into kate from kde 4.
rzs19	there is so much that does not work.
rzs19	well, now i can use tde, there is no reason for me, to switch back to kde4.
rzs19	ähm does somebody know how i can configure konqueror to show always detailed view?
Z_God	I would expect the slow display issue to be GPU related
Z_God	I barely tested 4.x myself, so I don't really know how it's now to be honest
rzs19	i have tried, nvidia, ati, intel. with intel it worked nice, ati too, but it needs to much ram.
Z_God	ok, my experience was limited to intel
rzs19	ad i dont like strigi, nepomuk, you can disable it, but not everything will work.
Z_God	and only versions
rzs19	with out it*
Z_God	older^
Z_God	ok
rzs19	4.6.5 was okay, but kate and konsole - this performance issues are not nice.
KingSphinx	And that's why Trinity exists. :D
rzs19	and when kde 4 was fast it wouldnt change much... tde != kde4...
Space_Man	rzs19: K menu / System settings / Default applications / File associations / Inode / Directory /
rzs19	and i can not understand ppl moving from kde to xfce, i don't the gtk dialogs.
Space_Man	and move the detailed list view to the top
rzs19	okay, i have tried it with profiles, but it only works for the current tab.
Space_Man	K menu / System settings / Default applications / File associations / Inode / Directory / **Embedding**
Z_God	Space_Man: thanks, I needed that as well :)
KingSphinx	Well, people are probably ditching KDE for Xfce because they don't know about Trinity... just my guess.
Space_Man	:)
rzs19	i was using google chrome and tried to print an image(gtk printing screen), scalled to the whole site, but there was no option.
rzs19	webkit, or gecko would be nice, if i can select it in konqueror.
Z_God	rzs19: working on it ;)
rzs19	or konsol as kpart :)
rzs19	great :D
Z_God	wish I had more time, but at least it's working what's in svn
Z_God	if you have some time to help out, it would be great
Aquarius	back here
Aquarius	by the way... chromium sucks.
KingSphinx	Hey, has there been any progress made on integrating an alternate rendering enging into Konqueror?
rzs19	well, i cannot help with c++ programming, i just can some scripting languages like python, js, php, gambas(long long time ago). but maybe i can make a bank robbery? :D
Aquarius	it doesn't work with java scripts well.
Aquarius	however, Iceweasel sucks too. It crashes on youtube videos.
Z_God	KingSphinx: I managed to get kmozilla running
Z_God	but there's still a lot of work left to do
Z_God	Aquarius: it shouldn't
KingSphinx	:o awesome! Will it be in 3.5.13 or will it have to wait?
Aquarius	the most stable browser for Debian is Opera, but it has anti-aliased fonts (i'm using sharpfonts script which didn't affect Opera for some reason) and thus it's its only flaw.
Z_God	KingSphinx: won't be
Aquarius	Z_God, well, it does by me.
rzs19	maybe the right time to finish learning c++? i have often started, but.. than.. there was allways python, it makes anything too easy... ;)
Z_God	Aquarius: check your flash plug-in version
Aquarius	Z_God, dunno why, maybe i'm cursed, but i do have some probs with browser too.
Aquarius	Z_God, what is to check there?
Aquarius	it's icedtea6 or something
Z_God	and if you're on a 64-bit bit system, use 64-bit flash
Aquarius	so either it works or it doesn;t
Aquarius	hm...
Aquarius	yes, i am
Z_God	that's java
Aquarius	you're assuming that i might've been using 32-bit flash?
Z_God	nspluginwrapper sucks
Aquarius	yeah, and Konqueror crashes on flash video.
Z_God	some distros ship it
Z_God	with this wrapper
Z_God	for 64-bit browsers
Z_God	the native 64-bit flash plug-in sucks less
Aquarius	i dunno how to check which version i'm using
Z_God	search for the plug-in file on your box
Z_God	and do a file on it
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Aquarius	how come Opera works perfectly with flash?
Aquarius	don't they share the same driver?
KingSphinx	Also, did KWin ever do compositing before 3.5.13 or is that new?
Z_God	file /usr/lib/flashplugin-installer/libflashplayer.so
Z_God	for example
Z_God	Aquarius: I guess not
Aquarius	so you're saying that Opera has it's own in-built flash thing?
Z_God	no, I guess they use the same plug-in
Z_God	you can check that
Aquarius	ah.
Z_God	enter about:plugins
Z_God	in both browsers
Aquarius	ok
Aquarius	copied, where's that pastebox again
Z_God	at least to fix most issues, you can go to http://www.youtube.com/html5
Z_God	and turn on the video tag
Z_God	it should avoid the flash plug-in when it's not necessary
Aquarius	IcedTea NPR Web Browser Plugin (using IcedTea6 1.8.9 (6b18-1.8.9-0.1~squeeze1))
Aquarius	The IcedTea NPR Web Browser Plugin (using IcedTea6 1.8.9 (6b18-1.8.9-0.1~squeeze1)) executes Java applets.
Aquarius	Shockwave Flash
Aquarius	Shockwave Flash 11.0 r1
Aquarius	Description: Shockwave Flash 11.0 r1
Aquarius	/usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/flash-mozilla.so
Z_God	check whether that lib is 64-bit
Aquarius	ok
Aquarius	what do you mean by "do a file on it"?
Z_God	like I wrote ;)
Z_God	file /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/flash-mozilla.so
Aquarius	i found it, but i dunno how to check
Z_God	ah sorry
Z_God	I mean you have to execute that in a konsole
Aquarius	hm.
Aquarius	so i have to type "file flash-mozilla.so"? :)
Z_God	the file command displays all kinds of useful info about a file
Aquarius	ok.
Z_God	is that's the path to the file, it should work
Z_God	if*
Aquarius	root@aquarius:~# file /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/
Aquarius	/usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/: directory
Aquarius	:)
Aquarius	that's what it does basically :)
Z_God	yep
Z_God	now do it on the lib
Aquarius	ah
Aquarius	damn
Aquarius	yes :) i missed it..
Z_God	it works on all kinds of files
Aquarius	thanks for letting know :)
Aquarius	root@aquarius:~# file /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/flash-mozilla.so
Aquarius	/usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/flash-mozilla.so: symbolic link to `/etc/alternatives/flash-mozilla.so'
Aquarius	:)
Z_God	yeah, just follow the links ;)
Aquarius	did it on second one too. Same thing.
Aquarius	ah
Aquarius	no
Aquarius	it changes.. hang on..
Aquarius	found.
Aquarius	64 bit.
Z_God	ok
Aquarius	root@aquarius:~# file /usr/lib/flashplugin-nonfree/libflashplayer.so
Aquarius	/usr/lib/flashplugin-nonfree/libflashplayer.so: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, stripped
Z_God	that one should be reasonably stable
Z_God	does it regularly crash?
Aquarius	well, Iceweasel crashes on youtube and displays some scripts incorrectly. Chromium never crashes on it, but displays some scripts incorrectly, like on playforia.com (i play pool there). Opera does all the job perfectly with no flaws at all.
Aquarius	Iceweasel just closes, it doesn't bring errors.
Z_God	maybe you could start iceweasel from a konsole or later even gdb and reproduce the crash
Aquarius	hm... to see what exactly happens?
Z_God	that should give more info
Z_God	yes
Aquarius	ok, let's stry.
Aquarius	erm.. how do i do that and what's gdb? :)
Z_God	I would try without first
Aquarius	well.. how do i run it from terminal?
Aquarius	i just entered the name there, but nothing happened. Should i specify the exect location?
Aquarius	exact*
Z_God	no
Z_God	it should work
Z_God	if it fails, you get an error
Z_God	like command not found
Aquarius	hm
Aquarius	no protocol specified it says
Z_God	you just type iceweasel?
Aquarius	it's not Alt+F2 thing. It's terminal.
Aquarius	yep.
Z_God	and it prints this?
Aquarius	exactly.
Aquarius	but..
Aquarius	.it's root terminal
Z_God	how come?
Aquarius	because i use root terminal usually.
Aquarius	let me use konsole
Z_God	you should never do that...
Aquarius	i know, but i'm tired of seeing "are you root?"
Z_God	you don't see that with normal applications
Z_God	only with system administration
Aquarius	i ran iceweasel from Konsole. Worked.
Aquarius	now to youtube..
Z_God	make it crash now yep ;)
Aquarius	crap..it doesn't crash now..
Aquarius	but i now it will next time when i'm not tracking it.
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Z_God	hope you can reproduce the crash now
Z_God	otherwise, it can also be interesting to look at the file .xsession-errors after a crash
Aquarius	maybe it's there still.
Aquarius	let me look it up
Z_God	I guess it's not so easy to find now
Z_God	I have to go to bed here
Aquarius	sure, see you later
Aquarius	thanks for assistance
Z_God	np :)
Z_God	I hope you can still look at those kicker options
Z_God	I can imagine you need to study that file a bit, but then it should work
Z_God	good night all!
Aquarius	sure, i'll try it out
Aquarius	night-night
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rzs19	gn8 :)
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KingSphinx	Just a few more hours! :D
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KingSphinx	Was the "deep buttons" thing a last-minute addition? I have a feeling I know who's responsible for that feature... :P
MutantTurkey	no it's been around
MutantTurkey	why/
MutantTurkey	?
MutantTurkey	it's been around afaik
KingSphinx	Lol, I remember that Aquarius has been wondering how to activate something in Kicker that had been missing for a while; namely, the ability to get the window tabe in Kicker to have that "pressed-in" look instead of just bolding the text of the currently active window.
Aquarius	exactly
KingSphinx	*tabs
MutantTurkey	Aquarius: deep buttons!
MutantTurkey	thats it
Aquarius	yep :)
MutantTurkey	word
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: so tomorrow is the big day?
KingSphinx	I guess so
MutantTurkey	yeah...
Aquarius	so what about buttons, huh?
Aquarius	why did you bring it up?
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KingSphinx	Nah, just thought I'd known who was the inspiration for having it re-implemented.
Aquarius	ah
Aquarius	yeah, it'd be a good thing.
Aquarius	i think even though i was the one who brought it up i'll be nevertheless not the only one who puts thumbs up in the end as it's done
Aquarius	that's for sure.
KingSphinx	Also, I've noted that it can now "be installed alongside KDE 4.x with few problems" instead of "no problems"...
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KingSphinx	MutantTurkey: Unreliable connection?
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Z_God	I think the topic is outdated
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Z_God	I just turned on this feature Aquarius was playing with
Z_God	I don't know yet if I like it or not
Z_God	http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-TnLKfc3YvRc/Tq_qh63_bAI/AAAAAAAAAfQ/q2I6E4UHIiQ/s800/drawbuttons.png
KingSphinx	Is it enable-able through a regular menu or do you really have to tinker with kicker.kcfg?
KingSphinx	er, taskbar.kcfg
Z_God	ktaskbarrc yep
Z_God	just add two lines
Z_God	[Appearance] & below that DrawButtons=true
Z_God	it's working on 3.5.11 at least
KingSphinx	BTW, are the release repos up yet or are you still on nightlies?
Z_God	I'm still on oldstable for lucid right now ;)
Z_God	unfortunately, I cannot easily update here, stupid data limits
KingSphinx	Really? Well, that would explain the K menu instead of the T menu
Z_God	yep
Z_God	I'll probably update this weekend if there will be a lucid version
Z_God	from 3.5.11 to 3.5.13, it'll be interesting :)
KingSphinx	Lucid never did get an update to 3.5.12, did it?
Z_God	nope, only nightlies
Z_God	which I didn't use
Z_God	I was running those only in a VM for testing & development
KingSphinx	I'm also sort of surprised to find that there won't be a Live CD of 3.5.13... I was kinda expecting one so I could reinstall Oneiric with Trinity just to be sure that KDE 4 isn't installed on my computer.
Z_God	there will be a live cd
Z_God	but not on the release day
Z_God	there was just not enough time
Z_God	at least that's how I understood it
Z_God	if you don't want another DE, just do a commandline only install, add the trinity repos and install trinity with the instructions
Z_God	that's how I tend to do it, it was even possible to install natty and put trinity 3.5.12 (for maverick) on in that way
KingSphinx	Not exactly an easy option for me, my wireless doesn't work OOB with any distribution save for Fedora, for some reason.
Z_God	yes, you need to install with a wire basically ...
Z_God	what kind of wifi chipset do you have?
KingSphinx	I'm also noted how, with 3.5.12, the release notes say it can be installed alongside KDE 4 with no problems. 3.5.13, on the other hand, says "few problems" instead. Hmm....
KingSphinx	Broadcom B4318, I think.
Z_God	there were always a few problems ;)
Z_God	it seems someone did build a live-cd for fedora
Z_God	so you could use that to chroot into a ubuntu commandline system & add trinity to it ;)
KingSphinx	Someone made a Fedora build of Trinity?
Z_God	http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::3267
KingSphinx	And here I thought it would be impossible because RedHat/Fedora don't allow installation in /opt
Z_God	I guess that would make it hard to get it included in the official repos
Z_God	but it doesn't make a 3rd-party repos impossible ;)
KingSphinx	Heck, the /opt issue is half the reason I distro-hopped back to *buntu (I didn't think anyone could get Trinity ported to Fedora... way to be proven wrong...)
Z_God	it makes sense imo to avoid putting stuff in /opt for the official repositories
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MutantTurkey	Z_God: /opt is good for things that are messy
MutantTurkey	especially when you have 2 versions of a product like kde3/kde4
Z_God	and you want to avoid messy stuff in your main repository
MutantTurkey	I tend to agree though, they're a bit annoying
MutantTurkey	righ
MutantTurkey	I use the /opt/trinity because it helps keep it self contained as well
Z_God	yes, for trinity it is definitely appropriate for now
MutantTurkey	rkight
Z_God	but I understand why fedora doesn't accept things like that
MutantTurkey	holy cow! Francois built a livecd?
MutantTurkey	Z_God: I dunno, "policy"
MutantTurkey	its probably not a hard rule though
Z_God	I think there would be bigger problems getting trinity in right now anyhow
MutantTurkey	if you explained it to them, i bet they'ed at least hear you out
MutantTurkey	yeah
Z_God	3rd party repos seems the best option for now
Z_God	I wonder when the site will be updated
MutantTurkey	where it is in the file system is pointless to deal with
Z_God	then the news can hit slashdot, etc. :)
MutantTurkey	Z_God: I think tim is probably running around in a very hectic manner
MutantTurkey	Z_God: I will send it off to h-open as well
MutantTurkey	as well as post it on reddit
Z_God	sounds good
MutantTurkey	do you  submit things to slashdot?
Z_God	nope
Z_God	but if nobody else does, I can try
MutantTurkey	I mean, is it user submitted?
Z_God	most of the time, yes it seems
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MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	well I'm off to make lunch and such
Z_God	have a good lunch!
MutantTurkey	thanks:)
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MutantTurkey	that was quite good
l0ner_away	what??
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MutantTurkey	lunch
MutantTurkey	had chilli and cornbread
l0ner	nice
l0ner	i forgot when i had mine
l0ner	but it's +-19:00 where I live
l0ner	and I'm beggining to think about dinner
l0ner	anyone here using arch??
l0ner	and maybe familiar with arts?
MutantTurkey	I love arch
MutantTurkey	:)
MutantTurkey	arts? as in the sound daemon?
l0ner	I moved from gentoo to arch
l0ner	yep
MutantTurkey	excellent!
MutantTurkey	arch is better imho :P
l0ner	right now it's true
l0ner	gentoo is doing some strange things right now
MutantTurkey	Arch is rock solid
l0ner	yep
l0ner	will there be new trinity packages for arch?
l0ner	maybe for kdemultimedia and oher things?
l0ner	it's kinda annoying using kdemod3... which don't work as it should
MutantTurkey	kdemod3 is terrible i think
MutantTurkey	I actually don't have packages made for arch
MutantTurkey	I have been quite busy running around fixing bugs and such
l0ner	maunal build? or aur?
MutantTurkey	I havent made up packages builds
MutantTurkey	manual build will work OK
l0ner	i'll wait
MutantTurkey	AUR isn't made yet
l0ner	i'll wait for aur
MutantTurkey	its a PITA and I don't have any tarballs to work with yet
l0ner	I don't want to mess with autoconf builds
MutantTurkey	its cmake now.
l0ner	everything? i pulled code from svn today and some components are still handled by automake
l0ner	like kdemultimedia which I need
MutantTurkey	some yes
MutantTurkey	kdemultimedia
MutantTurkey	autoconf is pretty simple though
MutantTurkey	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Developers/HowToBuild
MutantTurkey	check that
l0ner	read it something like 20 times tday
MutantTurkey	"make -f admin/Makefile.common "
MutantTurkey	okay :p
MutantTurkey	that is typicall all you have to do
l0ner	and autoconf just don't want to work for me
l0ner	i dunno why
MutantTurkey	:\
MutantTurkey	well I can start looking into archlinux scripts
l0ner	maybe because of multilib, maybe because of existing qt4 installation which i need for some apps
MutantTurkey	if you would like me to make them
l0ner	that would be nice
MutantTurkey	I thought Tim was going to release tarballs for the release
MutantTurkey	which i think he is...
MutantTurkey	so I need to wait until that time
l0ner	I'll wait, I don't need to update right now anyway
MutantTurkey	ok
l0ner	anyway, about arts
l0ner	i see there is arts inside kdemulltimedia
l0ner	and there is arts inside dependencise
l0ner	*dependencies
MutantTurkey	:o
l0ner	and I'm kinda confused, what is what
MutantTurkey	I am not sure
MutantTurkey	the one in dependencies is definitely first
MutantTurkey	because you need arts to build kdebase etc
l0ner	I know, but if the one in the deps is our soundmixerdaemon, what is the one in kdemultimedia?
l0ner	a versality multimedia system the consists of various little building
l0ner	3          blocks that you (or your application) can combine in almost arbitrary
l0ner	4          ways to create sound and video processing pipes.
l0ner	says README
MutantTurkey	no idea :|
l0ner	well, maybe Tim will know
l0ner	I'm getting feeling that whole trinity sound system needs a through lookup and update...
l0ner	since it's pretty archaic right now... compared to pulseaudio for example
MutantTurkey	pulse is terrible to though.
MutantTurkey	but we should switch
l0ner	well, most of problems with pulse comes form misunderstanding what it is
l0ner	and how it should be used
l0ner	the distro maintainers tend to put it above alsamixer which is a sound mixer by itseld
l0ner	and you end up having two mixers in your system, fighting each other for alsa and applications
l0ner	in realty it should be alsamixer OR pulse OR arts OR whatever sound mixer you want to use
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KingSphinx	Whee, 3.5.13 is out.... and from the looks of it, the repos for it are so swamped that Kubuntu's throwing up errors about no headers or something like that.
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MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: what?
MutantTurkey	oh nice
MutantTurkey	no email announcment yet
MutantTurkey	emailed h-online
KingSphinx	http://pastebin.com/T2ym15tj Here's an example of the errors I get when trying to update my sources
MutantTurkey	are you using the 3.5.13 sources now?
Z_God	the topic needs to be updated ;)
KingSphinx	Mhm, I added the Oneiric repos to sources.list, added the signing key, and ran sudo apt-get update... the last part is where I run into trouble.
MutantTurkey	the mirrors will take a few hours to sync i think
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Z_God	http://slashdot.org/recent
Z_God	I just submitted this to slashdot
MutantTurkey	ok
MutantTurkey	I sumbitted to hopen alread
l0ner	argh... konversation opens links in konqueror... and you don't want to know how this page looks in konqueror...
MutantTurkey	hehe
MutantTurkey	HOLY CRAP
MutantTurkey	it looks like death.
l0ner	yep
MutantTurkey	hopefully we get webkit in the next release
l0ner	would be really nice. I'd like to use konqueror as my main web browser
l0ner	I configured my desktop to be kinda like macosx, with the main toolbar integrated into top panel
KingSphinx	Funny how Trinity Konqueror makes a great file browser, but is almost IE6-level terrible at web browsing; while the current Konqueror makes a great web browser, but a terrible file manager. What happened?
l0ner	and I'm tired of applications which don't use that space for their main toolbar (ie all gtk+ apps)
l0ner	dunno... time paradox?
MutantTurkey	how do you do that?
l0ner	I think the best option for trinity would be drop knoqueror ability to be web browser and develop dedicated browser
MutantTurkey	integrated toolbar
MutantTurkey	l0ner: no with webkit all that will be done
l0ner	let's hope so
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: actually Konqueror still works great on websites that actually follow standards.
l0ner	MutantTurkey: rclick on planel -> add new panel and experiment with options
MutantTurkey	:)
l0ner	I don't remember how it's called
l0ner	but is really useful on small screens
MutantTurkey	I could use your help
MutantTurkey	I dont see how to do it
l0ner	argh... kdemod3 doesn't allow me to delete it
MutantTurkey	:(
MutantTurkey	what setting is it?
l0ner	no setting, it's one of the dedicated panels, as far as I know
MutantTurkey	oh!
MutantTurkey	called what though?>
MutantTurkey	I dont seem to have it :[
l0ner	arggh
l0ner	bad...
l0ner	I'll try to discover how it's called, but it could take some time
l0ner	brb
l0ner	I know!!!
l0ner	MutantTurkey: rclick on desktop -> Configuration -> Behavior -> Menu of current app (Mac OS) [or something likt that]
l0ner	and after it show up, you can add appets to it like to normal panel
MutantTurkey	got it
MutantTurkey	except it doesn't shot up :[
l0ner	apply, try reloging
MutantTurkey	yeah in a bit
MutantTurkey	I am watching a show
MutantTurkey	dont wantto have to re open it
l0ner	ok
l0ner	in the meantime i'll download trinity live cd and see if it works there
MutantTurkey	where is it
l0ner	anyway it should look similiar to this: http://inquistor.info/img/panehje1320174585c.png I added the kmenu, desktop switcher, notifications and clock
l0ner	right now I miss only a macos-like dock at the bottom of my screen to complete my osx-like desktop :D
MutantTurkey	there are linux docks
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Z_God	cze&#347;&#263; ;)
l0ner	Z_God: a witam ;)
Z_God	dzi&#281;kuj&#281;!
MutantTurkey	nice
MutantTurkey	except it needs a gtk wrapper
l0ner	MutantTurkey: i know that there are linux docs, but from what I remember they are python based, I don't like apps written in python
l0ner	yep
l0ner	it needs, but creating one exceeds my programming skills (which are pretty non-existent anyway :P)
MutantTurkey	yeah
MutantTurkey	does it need one?
MutantTurkey	or does our wrapper just need some work
MutantTurkey	our gtkwrapper probably could do it
l0ner	i think some work on the existing wrapper whould be fine
l0ner	I think so
MutantTurkey	yes\
l0ner	aaaargh!! Kview is refusing to zoom in/out
l0ner	I'm beggining to seriously consider manual build of newest trinity
MutantTurkey	do it
MutantTurkey	not difficult
MutantTurkey	especially with a newer processer :P
l0ner	i have an i3
l0ner	it shouldn't be a problem
l0ner	but first I'll try it on vbox, I don't want to mess with my system too much
l0ner	oh, another thing that trinity needs: qt4 wrapper. It's annoying to have qt4 apps in totally different style...
MutantTurkey	i3 isnt to bad
MutantTurkey	I have i5 and its pretty good
l0ner	i bought laptop with i3 because it had lower price :P
l0ner	and right now I hate it... why, oh why i had chosen a samsung laptop??
l0ner	specs itself aren't bad, but it's samsung
l0ner	and it's not really working well with linux
MutantTurkey	Lenovo Thinkpad here
MutantTurkey	all laptops are similar internal spec wise. all lots of processing power and ram
MutantTurkey	its about the build quality i care for
l0ner	that's true
l0ner	but samsung laptops handle acpi in some obscure way, i had problems with overheating because kernel couldn't comunicate with fan and speed it up -_-
l0ner	the situation sholud become better right now, since there is samsung-laptop module in kernel
l0ner	too bad it's hard-coded to work only with some models... at least it was when i looked at it
MutantTurkey	weird
MutantTurkey	I love my lappy :)
l0ner	i'd like some older laptop, or maybe something from the business-class... they are usually build better than the customer-class ones
l0ner	the best would be dell xt2... but the cost too much
MutantTurkey	lenovo
MutantTurkey	they are built awesome
MutantTurkey	and Lenovo sells refurb laptopts
l0ner	oh... I didn't know
l0ner	i'll look at them :)
MutantTurkey	http://outlet.lenovo.com/
MutantTurkey	they are usually quite a bit cheaper
l0ner	some time ago I had possibility to work on some older enterprise-class acers... despite being older they were awesome
l0ner	thx ;)
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* KingSphinx is still waiting for the mirrors to sync up
l0ner	MutantTurkey: about dock, http://kooldock.sourceforge.net written for kde3.x
l0ner	present in aur
l0ner	does not compile tho...
MutantTurkey	let me see if i can compile it on ubuntu
MutantTurkey	thats what I am on right now
l0ner	ok
MutantTurkey	we could even include it for trinity 3.5.14 if many people like it
l0ner	would be nice :D
MutantTurkey	that would be cool
l0ner	I'm suprised on how easy is to transform trinity into macosx
l0ner	dock + icons and you have nearly-complete osx look and feel :D
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	if we have this doc well
MutantTurkey	dock'
l0ner	yes ;)
l0ner	and we could advertise as osx desktop for linux xD
l0ner	compete solution
l0ner	I found another dock for kde3.2.x http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=6585
MutantTurkey	good work
l0ner	txh ;)
l0ner	anyway I downloaded latest source for both, and they configure, but do not compile
MutantTurkey	my first one wont even configure
MutantTurkey	...
MutantTurkey	cant find trinity
l0ner	argh
MutantTurkey	are you doing just ./configure?
l0ner	yes
l0ner	well, they are dead projects, so they will need some work
l0ner	before they can be compiled without problems on trinity
KingSphinx	The miracle of bit rot...
l0ner	yep
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MutantTurkey	but tim seems quite adept at doing it
rzs19	hello :)
MutantTurkey	so I dont think it is to hard
MutantTurkey	rzs19: hello!
rzs19	has any one upgraded to 3.5.13?
MutantTurkey	Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears!
MutantTurkey	:p
MutantTurkey	rzs19: yes I am running 3.5.13
MutantTurkey	:)
l0ner	and if I'm a comrade? :P
MutantTurkey	:P I only know a few shakespeare quotes and I dont know any that relate to you l0ner
MutantTurkey	rzs19: have you upgraded?
l0ner	lol xD then You should get to know some of the communist propaganda :P
KingSphinx	I would, but the repo mirrors haven't synced yet apparently.
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: Tokra said she was manually going to pull the mirrors
KingSphinx	So I just gotta wait a bit longer?
MutantTurkey	not sure
MutantTurkey	I am actually running the SVN release (which is right now exactly the same as 3.5.13) so I am not sure
rzs19	when i make a dist-upgrade it want only upgrade 12 packages, is this correct, or the mirror not complete?
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rzs19	MutantTurkey: no, atm not.
MutantTurkey	rzs19: have you been using 3.5.12?
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: looks like at least tokra.lv is up
MutantTurkey	http://mirror1.tokra.lv/releases/3.5.13/
rzs19	MutantTurkey: sure! :)
rzs19	there i got a 403: http://mirror1.tokra.lv/trinity-v3.5.13/ but maybe dir listening disabled?
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MutantTurkey	what is dist-upgrade? is that the regular command?
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rzs19	hmm...
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MutantTurkey	rzs19: did you run apt-get update first? :)
rzs19	apt-get dist-upgrade ?
MutantTurkey	first you need to apt-get update first I think
rzs19	oh wait... something... cool... *search*
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: how much bandwidth do you think a mirror needs?
MutantTurkey	I have a 300Gb/month VPS i barely use
KingSphinx	No idea, never needed to run a mirror. :P
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MutantTurkey	I could use it for anothe trinity mirror. been meaning to set it up lately but havent had the time
l0ner	ok guys, I'm going grab some sleep. Tomorrow's school day...
MutantTurkey	okay l0ner ttyl
MutantTurkey	I'll try and get that dock to compile
l0ner	good luck ;)
rzs19	offcourse :)
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rzs19	i will wait... :)
rzs19	damn, i'am hungry, burger king has closed after 20:00 ... i was too long at work...
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* l0ner_away is away: sleeping...
MutantTurkey	rzs19: bugerking is delicious
rzs19	i know
rzs19	yeah :D but i more like mc donalds :)
KingSphinx	I wanted to go to Subway today, but I was too busy...
rzs19	i can eat what i want, i don't got fat.
rzs19	got, get..got get. .whatever
MutantTurkey	they just opened a new MC'ds near my house
MutantTurkey	its really nice
rzs19	i need to go trough the forest...
rzs19	its dark, cold and maybe my last mc donalds visit ;D
rzs19	where are you all from?
MutantTurkey	:P
MutantTurkey	Philadelphia
rzs19	uh far far away
MutantTurkey	l0ner is a comrade, somewhere in russia i think
rzs19	hehe
Z_God	I would expect Poland for l0ner actually ;)
MutantTurkey	rzs19: yourself?
rzs19	originaly from vienna, austria, but now ffm germany...
KingSphinx	I can eat a footlong from Subway, while a 6-inch would be enough for most people. Surprisingly, I'm only about 130-135 pounds.
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: I do the 1 foot as well
MutantTurkey	doesnt alway seem to be enough :[
KingSphinx	Haha, I know what you mean. Not too often though in my case, the key is in the toppings and bread, not the meat as one might think.
MutantTurkey	its all about the toppings
rzs19	i'am too lazy to cook, but i'am hungry, damn :/
KingSphinx	Also, rzs19, I'm from North Carolina. Quite a nice state, has a bit of everything.
MutantTurkey	north carolina++
MutantTurkey	well I only have driven through it, but nice enough place
MutantTurkey	stopped at a waffle house if i recall.
MutantTurkey	any redditors here? upvote my post http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/lwozj/trinity_desktop_environment_3513_released/
rzs19	i ... need a .. hmm yeah i need a rich banker girl, with a nice cook :D
MutantTurkey	hah
MutantTurkey	I like to cook, my girlfriend doesnt cook at all, so I am the main cook
rzs19	do you want to cook for me? :D
KingSphinx	I've only eaten at a Waffle House once. It was three in the morning, and me and a few friends had just left the Longbranch (first time clubbing). Really good stuff.
MutantTurkey	not bad for a fast food breakfest joint
MutantTurkey	also, tim just sent out the announce email
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: did you see that Francois made a liveCD? I wonder where it is
KingSphinx	I think I heard something of that nature, but I have no clue where the ISO would be.
MutantTurkey	he posted on the ML that he created it. I know tim said he was willing to upload it so we'll see
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Z_God	is there already smth on Google+ or Facebook about Trinity?
MutantTurkey	Not sure
MutantTurkey	like a facebook group for Trinity?
MutantTurkey	I could create one.
KingSphinx	Dunno about Google+, but there's nothing about it on Facebook.
Z_God	MutantTurkey: yep, smth like that
Z_God	if you could create one, that would be good
MutantTurkey	like a "page"
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* l0ner_away is away: sleeping...
MutantTurkey	going to go relax for a bit
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Z_God	http://www.osnews.com/story/25283/KDE_3_5_Fork_Trinity_Releases_First_Major_Update
MutantTurkey	thats incorrect but who cares
KingSphinx	Isn't this the third major update?
Z_God	the other ones were not so major
Z_God	I think :P
Z_God	I wrote it like that to make it more headline news ;)
MutantTurkey	...
MutantTurkey	the other ones were major :p
MutantTurkey	oh well
KingSphinx	I'd prefer it be more accurate, but at least it gets the point across.
Z_God	I didn't see them on any news site
MutantTurkey	I will post a comment
MutantTurkey	did anyone see the new gmail interface?
MutantTurkey	its nice
Z_God	I'm phoning through gmail right now
Z_God	but I don't see it
MutantTurkey	I emailed them
MutantTurkey	or posted saying it was incorrect
MutantTurkey	can you change the slashdot thing?
MutantTurkey	like edit it?
Z_God	I don't think so, but you can also submit the same news
Z_God	more submissions of the same thing doesn't seem bad
MutantTurkey	i mean edit it
MutantTurkey	okay submit it again...
Z_God	but I wonder why the previous releases weren't on news sites
Z_God	I think it's the prime way to attract developers
MutantTurkey	werent on news sites?
MutantTurkey	because Tim isn't uh... "media" minded
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MutantTurkey	he is an excellent coder and leader, but when it comes to social networking, he is not really doing it
KingSphinx	Speaking of Tim, where the heck has he been? All that's here is his bot...
MutantTurkey	I know...
MutantTurkey	well thats the chat log
MutantTurkey	havent seen him in 4+ days.
MutantTurkey	he mentioned he was busy with work
KingSphinx	And the repos are still not up-to-date. >_>;
MutantTurkey	relaxx
MutantTurkey	usually takes a bit
MutantTurkey	though we should have done this all before
MutantTurkey	Z_God: any other linux-ey websites
MutantTurkey	lwn.net?
MutantTurkey	to submit to i mena
Z_God	maybe digg
Z_God	I'm still on the phone, so I'm a bit slow...
MutantTurkey	right
MutantTurkey	also are the mirrors up yet?
KingSphinx	Nope, still getting the same errors I was getting earlier. Ugh, sometimes I wish I weren't so eager to get new stuff straight away.
MutantTurkey	have you been using svn?
KingSphinx	No, I never have used SVN
MutantTurkey	oh
KingSphinx	I thought of trying the nightlies, but I was sorta scared I'd really break something. ^^;
MutantTurkey	that is nightlies
MutantTurkey	SVN  = nightlies
MutantTurkey	pretty seamless upgrade path
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edogaa	Hey, so I tried getting trinity through a 3rd party repos on arch, I notice you guys have HAL as a dependency, is that going to be fixed at some point (a move to udev?)? Or did I ask that already, can't recall I just recall wanting to switch to it and asking stuff here.
MutantTurkey	hey
MutantTurkey	edogaa: yes
MutantTurkey	in the next release we will have eliminated HAL
edogaa	*nods*
edogaa	Hurrah D:
MutantTurkey	basically we wanted to wait because for a while things were quite uncertain
MutantTurkey	we didn't want to port and then have to port again. now that things have settled on upower, udisks, udev, we are going to have it.
MutantTurkey	edogaa: also, what repository is that? kdemod3?
rzs19	devfs, hal, udev... freebsd just has devd..
edogaa	Well, actually I believe so yes?
rzs19	and when udev works, than we got something new!
MutantTurkey	thats the problem
MutantTurkey	and frankly, hald is still working for me...
MutantTurkey	"unmaintainable pile of crap" that works is better than no clear solution
MutantTurkey	IMHO they should have just improved Hal and not scrapped it.
MutantTurkey	ah well
edogaa	Hmmm, from what I read or heard about HALD I Don't think scrapping it was as bad as scrapping an entire DE o.O
MutantTurkey	:P
MutantTurkey	edogaa: I'm an arch fan, do you have a link to that repo?
MutantTurkey	quite interested :P
MutantTurkey	I know there was some work going on with it, and I myself have been working on PKGBUILDS, but nothing difinitive
MutantTurkey	s/difinitve/definitive
edogaa	https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Trinity#Binary_Packages_-_From_Trinity_SVN_Code
edogaa	too be hoenst, i'm thinking of moving to fedora lol
MutantTurkey	that's outdated dang
MutantTurkey	well as far as I know
MutantTurkey	David Rankin was doing a lot of development on it but got hung up with work
MutantTurkey	havent seen him for months
edogaa	Ah.
MutantTurkey	well now i'm not sure :p
MutantTurkey	let me look
edogaa	So any issues with 3.5.13 on fedora? :O
MutantTurkey	we actually have Francois Andriot working on it
MutantTurkey	he has up to date packages as far as I know
*** MutantTurkey is now known as MobileTurkey
edogaa	So, how do you guys get around the whole hal thing? o.o I always thought fedora and ubuntu oneirc dropped it
MobileTurkey	we juts host it.
MobileTurkey	just host it'
edogaa	ah
MobileTurkey	we have a hal-trinity package.
MobileTurkey	drop in replacement
MobileTurkey	works for me
MobileTurkey	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Developers/RoadMap vague roadmap
MobileTurkey	dunno how accurate that is
MobileTurkey	most of this stuff is "ongoing goals"
MobileTurkey	HAL is definitely on the list
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edogaa	Hmm, Fedora 16.
MobileTurkey	yes?
edogaa	Will it take a while for a release on fedora 16 to come out? I Mean trinity on F16?
MobileTurkey	Francois has the packages done I think
MobileTurkey	let me find the link
MobileTurkey	http://trinitydesktop.org/installation.php#redhat
MobileTurkey	there are instructions there
MobileTurkey	ah thats fedora 15
MobileTurkey	not released yet, 16 that is
edogaa	yeah
edogaa	I'm wondering about when it is released at the moment lol
MobileTurkey	i'd fire off an email to francois
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kb9vqf	Hi guys
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: Regarding your media comment (yes I do read the logs! ;-)) feel free to take over there
kb9vqf	Every minute I spend dealing with media (social or otherwise) is a minute that I cannot work on improving the Trinity codebase
kb9vqf	this is why we have development teams :)
MobileTurkey	hey!
MobileTurkey	I am
MobileTurkey	i've been doing what I can
MobileTurkey	i let you do what you do best
kb9vqf	sounds good :)
MobileTurkey	i have a few Q's
kb9vqf	sure
MobileTurkey	1) can I be a mirror from my VPS? i have 300gb of unused bandwidth.
kb9vqf	yes
MobileTurkey	2) the releases page on the website doesnt have 3.5.13
kb9vqf	hang on
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kb9vqf	link please?
MobileTurkey	3) mirrors currently are whacked out, so i've been telling people to give it 24 hours
kb9vqf	yep, that's right
MobileTurkey	http://trinitydesktop.org/releases.php
MobileTurkey	also, are there tarballs for the release?
kb9vqf	I didn't want to delay the release any further as the tarballs are available today
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	hang on
kb9vqf	http://trinitydesktop.org/releases/3.5.13
kb9vqf	forgot to activate the link I guess :-/
MobileTurkey	yes it's not there
MobileTurkey	4) are we getting back on the 6 month cycle? (thats a big question :p
MobileTurkey	5) WOOHOOO! SUCESSFUL RELEASE! you're awesome
* MobileTurkey gives kb9vqf round of applause
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kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: Releases page is up
* kb9vqf thanks MobileTurkey, samelian, Francois Androit, and others for handling some things he didn't have time to do
kb9vqf	Regarding the 6 month cycle: Do you think a HAL replacement can be written in 6 months without my direct involvement?
kb9vqf	If so then yes, that is a distinct possibilit
kb9vqf	*possibility
kb9vqf	also we will need some new artwork for the next release
kb9vqf	time to get  3.5.14 Etherpad together I think... :)
kb9vqf	BTW the codebase is still frozen until I say otherwise
kb9vqf	I'm working on this whole GIT mess at the moment
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: got a post about ARM already
kb9vqf	good? bad? indifferent?
MobileTurkey	wondering relaly
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MobileTurkey	he is exactly the market you are trying to hitr
MobileTurkey	"I have a small ARM powered device...."
kb9vqf	ah, cool :)
kb9vqf	on the ML?
MobileTurkey	I said we'll have squeeze for the moment, and it's in the APT repository
MobileTurkey	www.osnews.com/comments/25283
MobileTurkey	i've been sort of fielding questions from here.
izaki	Hi! Is it possible to make Trinity coexist with KDE5 on a kubuntu installation? I am willing to take a leap of faith but this is also the machine I use to work....
kb9vqf	KDE5?
edogaa	KDE5 o.O
MobileTurkey	KDE5?
edogaa	XD omg, everyone here had the same reaction
MobileTurkey	surely you jest.
izaki	Bleh, sorry... KDE4...
MobileTurkey	izaki: it should be fine to install KDE4 alongside trinity with no problems
kb9vqf	it will coexist with KDE4 as long as you don't try to mix applications, such as running TDE apps in a KDE4 session
izaki	:D
edogaa	Ah yes, how annoying is it to run nautilus by mistake and have the GNOME Desktop overlap your current desktop
kb9vqf	(technically the apps will still run but you might get weird behaviour due to the default settings clash)
edogaa	in some kind of hideous, bloated slow fashion
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: i've been working on kgtk some more, it's also a total mess.
kb9vqf	GTK3?
* kb9vqf took one look at Cairo and ran
MobileTurkey	imagine knowing how to use QWERTY keyboards, then learning DVORAK
MobileTurkey	its just a totally different approach
MobileTurkey	there is not "just replace X with Y"
MobileTurkey	it is possible that I could make it use regular old X11 calls though.
MobileTurkey	since the GTK drawing scheme is nearly identical to X11's
MobileTurkey	any thoughts on that?
edogaa	>_> Hmm? WHat.
MobileTurkey	edogaa: rewriting our GTK wrapper for GTK3.
edogaa	Actually, this looks like one of thosse topics i won't get so I'll just continue string at my download manager to see how far fedora has downloaded lol
edogaa	oh
MobileTurkey	lol
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: also gtk3 apps all crash now. somewhere we are setting the LD PRELOAD to libkgtk2 and that forces any gtk3 app to crash
MobileTurkey	no matter what
edogaa	You know, I Wonder if gtk apps will look less 'hideous' on trinity than in 4... lol
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: So GTK3 went off the deep end
kb9vqf	great :-P
MobileTurkey	yeah\
kb9vqf	looks like I might work on the Qt4 integration and start recommending that :-/
kb9vqf	GTK is a bit of a useless pain lately
kb9vqf	slow
kb9vqf	ugly
kb9vqf	clunky
kb9vqf	GTK2 looked tons better
MobileTurkey	yeah. I liked gtk 1.x
Space_Man	kb9vqf: can you update the chan's topic :P
MobileTurkey	times change.
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 572 filed by contact@philipashmore.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=572 critical, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Problems with KDE Trinity 3.5.13 repositories on Debian Squeeze/Wheezy amd64
* MobileTurkey facepalm
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o kb9vqf
edogaa	hmm o.o? y u facepalm D:
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*** kb9vqf changes topic to "#trinity-desktop [Trinity Desktop Environment 3.5.13 is out! Get it at http://www.trinitydesktop.org Also, consider joining the Trinity mailing lists [http://bit.ly/hZ83mF]. IRC will be most active/helpful during business hours in the USA. BOTW #??? [CODE FROZEN] Support the Project! [http://bit.ly/pmkMVB]]"
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kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: Remind the bug reporter that the binary packages are not yet synced to the mirrors
kb9vqf	I did put that info in the annoucement :-P
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey rather
edogaa	i wonder if kbfx will still work with it :O
edogaa	i never used it, but it looked pretty nifty
kb9vqf	kbfx is available and functional AFAIK
edogaa	Awesome ;D
MobileTurkey	ok
MobileTurkey	edogaa: kbfx works i was using it a bi ago
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: hows the bandwidth holding up?
MobileTurkey	lots of load?
kb9vqf	so far so good
kb9vqf	lots of load from the mirror sync still
kb9vqf	unfortunately this time around it has to upload something close to 40GB
kb9vqf	because of the Fedora/RHEL packages
kb9vqf	that's why it's taking so long
MobileTurkey	right
kb9vqf	for 3.5.14 we should put together a tentative schedule
MobileTurkey	next time it would be good to have the mirrors ready first
kb9vqf	we need to allow 2 weeks for QA
MobileTurkey	yes
kb9vqf	and another week for mirror sync
MobileTurkey	right
kb9vqf	and a week for binary builds before that
MobileTurkey	or a few days
kb9vqf	so we could easily have 1 1/2 months tied up in release duties
kb9vqf	leacing 4 1/2 months to hack on Trinity
kb9vqf	*leaving
kb9vqf	then add the month or so it could take to get GIT all up and running...
MobileTurkey	we need to set up some roadmap for the release
MobileTurkey	right.
kb9vqf	this development window may be rather short :-P
MobileTurkey	:x
kb9vqf	I'm expecting only 3 months to hack on TDE
kb9vqf	so set the goals accordingly
kb9vqf	I'm not convinced a 6 month cycle is such a good thing really
kb9vqf	we lose 1/5 of the cycle time just in getting ready for release
MobileTurkey	with large projects I am
MobileTurkey	like LibreOffice or Firefox
MobileTurkey	with a small team, without a release team.
kb9vqf	Firefox has been...buggy ever since they switched
* kb9vqf is undecided
MobileTurkey	read this
MobileTurkey	http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan#Summary
MobileTurkey	that might steer you one way or another
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kb9vqf	OK, let's see what we can get done in the 3 month window
MobileTurkey	lets see how long git takes :p
kb9vqf	I suggest contining to hack on TED while the GIT move is being done
kb9vqf	*TDE
kb9vqf	e.g. fix bugs
kb9vqf	upload the patches to the bugtracker
kb9vqf	then we'll have a large import when GIT is running
MobileTurkey	that is a good idea
kb9vqf	so first step in our roadmap is: I'll get GIT running while everyone else fixes bugs :))
exc_	hi
exc_	i cannot do apt-get update
kb9vqf	mirrors are syncing
kb9vqf	could take 24 hours or so
exc_	http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian/dists/squeeze/main/binary-i386/Packages.bz2 cannot be downloaded without referer
kb9vqf	sources are available but the binaries are not yet uploaded
kb9vqf	*fully uploaded
exc_	thx
kb9vqf	np
kb9vqf	we have many tens of GB of binary data; that is why the initial upload is taking so long
* kb9vqf needs to run
kb9vqf	I will be back later
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: Can you get a timeline template started on the Wiki in the Developer's web?
kb9vqf	while I'm gone?
MobileTurkey	yes
kb9vqf	then I can flesh it out a bit when I get back
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	thanks
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KingSphinx	I leave to eat dinner, and the main man himself pops in. :P
MobileTurkey	yeah
MobileTurkey	lol:p
* MobileTurkey has to let my moms friend barrow my laptop :XXXX
KingSphinx	So 3.5.14 will ditch HAL?
MobileTurkey	yes.
MobileTurkey	hopefully
KingSphinx	To be honest, I never really noticed a difference between HAL and udisks/uwhatever...
KingSphinx	I'm sure it's a lot different developer-wise, but user-end experience is about the same for me.
exc_	hal starts longer
exc_	also with hal i was able to configure xorg settings for hotpluggable devices like mouse
kb9vqf	3 months is a bit of a short dev cycle to rip out HAL, but we'll try our hardest
exc_	now i must run script after plugging
kb9vqf	HAL is still a nice piece of software
exc_	btw there is no udev on freebsd and other os
exc_	i believe you don't remove hal support completly?
kb9vqf	probably not
kb9vqf	actually we need to create an interface library
kb9vqf	that would allow different backend (HAL, udev, foobar from the future) to be used
kb9vqf	*backends
kb9vqf	that's why I am concerned about the 3 month development time
exc_	like solid in kde4?
kb9vqf	probably, but at a much lower level
kb9vqf	solid is anything but solid AFAIK :)
kb9vqf	bloaty
exc_	)
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: I'm back
kb9vqf	Wiki link please?
MobileTurkey	back too
MobileTurkey	sorry an german exchange teacher needed it
MobileTurkey	to check her email
MobileTurkey	for some reaosn microsoft live kept crashing on linux...
MobileTurkey	:)
MobileTurkey	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Developers/3_5_14_Roadmap
rzs19	http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2011/08/thoughts-about-kde-plasma-on-non-linux-systems/ *urghs*
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: this is where the wiki fails, multi person editing :p
kb9vqf	whoa
kb9vqf	oops
kb9vqf	let me get a couple thoughts down please :)
MobileTurkey	okay:D
MobileTurkey	release date for 3.5.14 is May 1st 2012?
kb9vqf	Yes, ***tentatively***
MobileTurkey	well of course.
kb9vqf	it's not just us devs on this channel :)
kb9vqf	don't want to give a wrong impression
MobileTurkey	maybe we need #trinity-dev? :p
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	no, I'm just being a bt nitpicky ATM
kb9vqf	normally this channel alone is perfectly fine
kb9vqf	some users are very interested in release dates, and having one floating around without qualifiers could come back and haunt us, regardless of the channel it was logged in
MobileTurkey	understood
kb9vqf	let me know when you are done editing the Wiki
kb9vqf	so I can take a look at it
kb9vqf	grrr...the Fedora/RHEL rsync job messed up and duplicated all the RPM data
kb9vqf	that explains why things are taking soooo long to sync :-P
kb9vqf	fixed now, but I think the damage is done so to speak
MobileTurkey	yeah
MobileTurkey	a few users will just give up after it doesnt initially work
MobileTurkey	especially new users
kb9vqf	well, we will need to send out another announcement stating that binary packages are now available
kb9vqf	hopefully that will limit any damage done in that regard
kb9vqf	rzs19: urgh is right
MobileTurkey	okay good
kb9vqf	KDE4 just keeps getting worse :-/
kb9vqf	and Wayland is just scary
rzs19	well, linux has its ipv6 stack from freebsd, if i remembe right.
kb9vqf	Linux could theoretically fragment itself right out of existence on the desktop
MobileTurkey	rzs19: I don't think so... it wouldnt make it into the kernel with bsd licensing
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: also, it's already doing that
MobileTurkey	Unity is destroying linux
kb9vqf	I know
kb9vqf	I'm sad
MobileTurkey	it doesn't pass the "mom" test. If your mom cant use it, then it's no good.
kb9vqf	there aren't any real options out there outside of Linux
kb9vqf	hehe
MobileTurkey	seriously.
MobileTurkey	do you think your mom can use Unity or Gnome3? no. KDE4? probably but not well
kb9vqf	that's the exact thinking that brought Windows 8 into existence though
kb9vqf	and Mac OS
rzs19	hmm, ur right.. license does not match...
MobileTurkey	"Shuttleworth is as flexible as a brick wall. He is going to do it his way, even if he crashes and burns his own distro."
kb9vqf	both of which are TERRIBLE for developers
rzs19	as i said, last day, wayland is useless for me, i need xdmcp, indirect rendering...
kb9vqf	yes, I'm starting to get real ticked at Ubuntu personally
kb9vqf	The X server, for all of its faults, is one of Linux's strengths
KingSphinx	It's practically bulletproof?
MobileTurkey	finally catching arch fever?
kb9vqf	Where else can you have transparent networked displays?
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: I agree, except that I think that the network model is outdated
exc_	there is a mess with http headers when downloading debian package: after 3 redirects it got error page with "200 ok" header
exc_	http://dpaste.com/645814/
MobileTurkey	that should be done in module instead of at the core
rzs19	okay is twas based on the bsd api
kb9vqf	oh no, Inga reactivated the 404 pages
kb9vqf	that's BAD
kb9vqf	BAD BAD BAD
* kb9vqf goes to deactivate his mirror immediately
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: what mirrors do we have?
KingSphinx	And right as I was about to check to see if the mirrors were up...
kb9vqf	ok, his is no longer being cycled in
MobileTurkey	I thought inga was our main mirror?
kb9vqf	no
kb9vqf	he has a lot of bandwidth but he is somewhat unstable
kb9vqf	things happen randonly with his mirror
MobileTurkey	somehow I always hit ingas whenever I connect to it.
kb9vqf	*randomly
MobileTurkey	must be
kb9vqf	yes, it has high priority due to the badwidth available
MobileTurkey	right
MobileTurkey	but the stability is an issue
kb9vqf	a serious one
KingSphinx	:o none of the mirrors crashed!
kb9vqf	I thought he had it fixed
rzs19	ppl often thing, vnc, rdp and x11 is the same, or do the same things...
kb9vqf	by no means!
kb9vqf	x11 really is the best, but it is the least portable
rzs19	x11 needs some updates, i think...
kb9vqf	vnc is slow and does not support certain things, and rdp...well....
* Z_God loves remote X11
MobileTurkey	remote X11 sucks for me
MobileTurkey	it never works well with GTK or QT
Z_God	it works great with Qt3
MobileTurkey	especiall when there is any sort of lag
rzs19	x11, you can use xinerama, with vnc not, rdp has multihead, in newer specs, so i think?
MobileTurkey	locally it's awesome though
rzs19	i can use opengl with indirect rendering :)
rzs19	i can display seperate application and not only the whole desktop...
Z_God	it's great to be able to ssh into a box & just have all X11 apps working
KingSphinx	Since I was actually able to make contact with all my repos, do you think I should try installing 3.5.13 or should I wait a bit to see if everything's okay connection-wise?
MobileTurkey	rdp works better for me :x
MobileTurkey	especially so I can login to linux from a windows box
rzs19	but supports rdp something like xinerama, ord dualhead?
MobileTurkey	afaik NO. but i don't need dual heads if I cant even log in
kb9vqf	KingSphinx: Give it a shot
rzs19	and whats about opengl? i fear wayland...
kb9vqf	you might end up with 404s, if so jsut wait
kb9vqf	*just
rzs19	if i have more time, i will write a nice howto, to use lxc with some desktop an X.org, soshow the power of this technolgies :)
rzs19	to show*
rzs19	damn i'am too stupid to use a keyboard correctly...
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	sounds good though
rzs19	there was antoher post, why we have different distributions and why they don't have same release circleswith same kernel, usw... and i just thinked "someone misunderstands linux dsitributions"... thats frustrating... its like "we must be like windows"
Z_God	btw, you all should check out NoMachine's X11 proxy in case you never heard of it
rzs19	NX is cool
MobileTurkey	FreeNX?
Z_God	yep
Z_God	not perfect, but it solves many issues that other options have
MobileTurkey	right
MobileTurkey	every option has its pros and cons
rzs19	yep :)
* kb9vqf remembers an old image that used to exist on the Internet years ago...Tux with the words "Don't be Windows"
Z_God	maybe we could integrate freenx into trinity some time
MobileTurkey	a freenx app would be cool
rzs19	i wish the old days back...
rzs19	somone knows fox desktop?
rzs19	with kxdocker and kde 3.5.x ?
rzs19	fast and relly nice artwork, but death...
rzs19	+a
Z_God	can't you use kxdocker anymore?
rzs19	i don't have tried it...
rzs19	working on a new one for superkramba, in the hope it will be good :P
rzs19	http://stuff.capnkirby.com/Foxdesktop.gif <3 ^^
Z_God	ah ok :)
Z_God	looks good :)
rzs19	that was kxdocker
KingSphinx	I still feel that SuperKaramba was thrown into KDE 4 as an afterthought, hardly anyone uses it anymore to my knowledge. Bit of a shame, really.
Z_God	I guess it could be compiled against trinity
Z_God	I never had problems with kde3 apps in trinity
rzs19	i think :)
rzs19	but if i try, i have none sense to play with superkaramba :P
Z_God	hehe
MobileTurkey	SuperKaramba is what?
MobileTurkey	i read about it earlier
MobileTurkey	also kxdocker is cool!
rzs19	hmm, dies superkaramba support xinerama, or other dualhead/trippel head whateverhead?
rzs19	damn 3 o clock in the morning, tommorrow i ned to go to work and i want to programm... hmm maybe i should go to bed an programm tomorrow
rzs19	ell, i wish everyone a nice night :)
rzs19	well*
kb9vqf	superkaramba is in Trinity
rzs19	i know :)
rzs19	*playing arround with it*
Z_God	I'm off to bed here
rzs19	and now good night! :)
Z_God	it's also the 2nd of november here already
Z_God	;)
kb9vqf	:)
Z_God	kb9vqf: thanks for the great release, I'll be looking forward to upgrade this weekend!
kb9vqf	you are more than welcome
kb9vqf	spead the word :)
Z_God	hope you'll be slashdotted :P
kb9vqf	The more users on TDE the more devs we can attract
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kb9vqf	me too, though that's never happened before...
Z_God	I didn't find an article about trinity before on slashdot either
* kb9vqf notes that with his luck he'll get too much traffic and the site will go down :-P
Z_God	I hope it will make it now
kb9vqf	not sure how things even end up there...
KingSphinx	Aw, apt-get is telling me it can't find kubuntu-default-settings-trinity or kubuntu-desktop-trinity...
Z_God	I submitted it
Z_God	it put it on osnews as well, and it was posted quite quickly there together with a KDE4 rant
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	thanks :)
Z_God	osnews is quite nerdy, but one dutch guy there is really into ranting ;)
kb9vqf	KingSphinx: Yep, the mirrors are syncing still
kb9vqf	it's a lot of data
Z_God	np of course!
* Z_God is off to bed
kb9vqf	hey, I think this is the busiest this channel has been in months!
Z_God	good luck with everything else
kb9vqf	Ww should release more often! :-))
kb9vqf	thanks
Z_God	a small note is that the current pages offering ISOs still mention them as current
kb9vqf	ah, darn
* kb9vqf will probably forget to fix them
Z_God	they wouldn't give a bad first impression I think though :)
Z_God	good night/day!!
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kb9vqf	and they are useful to upgrade from
kb9vqf	the UI hasn't changed much from 3.5.12 to 3.5.13
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Xu_R|Web	kb9vqf: congrats on the release! sorry I haven't been very active at all.
Xu_R|Web	kb9vqf: the quarter for school just ended... I don't understand why teachers think it's a good idea to assign *x* amount of essays on the last week of school...
kb9vqf	no problem
kb9vqf	we should start using the Etherpad more often BTW :)
Xu_R|Web	*last week of the quarter...
Xu_R|Web	yes, we should :)
kb9vqf	it was a nice tool
kb9vqf	BTW planning meeting will happen 11/15/2011 or so
Xu_R|Web	it needs some love :D
Xu_R|Web	kk
kb9vqf	3.5.14 will be somewhat compressed
kb9vqf	dev cycle wise
Xu_R|Web	ima get back into and hopefully finish packaging. it's been kinda hectic.
Xu_R|Web	oic.
kb9vqf	Calvin and I are working on a release roadmap
kb9vqf	timing and all
kb9vqf	taking into account some of our recent Q/A lessons
Xu_R|Web	and the structuring begins ;P
kb9vqf	input is welcome  on this discussion
kb9vqf	jeje
kb9vqf	hehe
* kb9vqf hates this keyboard
KingSphinx	Whoo, update-related restarts...
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Xu_R|Web	XD
Xu_R|Web	kb9vqf: I managed to recover my dev machine :D which means I have at least half of the core modules done again
kb9vqf	cool
Xu_R|Web	(no guarantee on working, but at least they're done packaging wise. now just to test ;P)
kb9vqf	which distro?
Xu_R|Web	suse
kb9vqf	ok, good
kb9vqf	we have RHEL and Fedora now
kb9vqf	so OpenSUSE would round things out
kb9vqf	I also think Gentoo works, albiet with a manual compilation
Xu_R|Web	yea. samelian is busy tho :|
kb9vqf	we're slowly building back up to where KDE3 was :)
Xu_R|Web	:D
Xu_R|Web	othankgod, my server is back up. this damn router.
Xu_R|Web	switching to xchat.
MobileTurkey	Xu_R|Web: hey :)
Xu_R|Web	yo, calvin :D
Xu_R|Web	...as soon as I find the new Ip for my ircclient >_>
* Xu_R|Web hates d-link
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MobileTurkey	whats up dude
MobileTurkey	havent seen you at all
MobileTurkey	also we should try and video chat because I am hankering to see if gmail video chat works :p
MobileTurkey	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Developers/3_5_14_Roadmap
MobileTurkey	updated it with pre release planning
MobileTurkey	using "x weeks to release"
Xu_R|Web	MobileTurkey: sure, if my webcam starts working. does occasionally. :)
kb9vqf	ok, but feature freeze will be 6 weeks
kb9vqf	also add 1 week to build packages
kb9vqf	not everyone has something as powerful as the QuickBuild supercomputer ;-)
MobileTurkey	6 weeks?
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: how big is that cluster/
MobileTurkey	?
kb9vqf	80 cores
Xu_R|Web	and quickbuild probably takes a while anyway ;)
Xu_R|Web	oh damn.
kb9vqf	on the build farm alone
kb9vqf	control servers add more
Xu_R|Web	i'll... stick to using build.o.o lolol
kb9vqf	hehe
MobileTurkey	jeez
MobileTurkey	80 cores....
MobileTurkey	so that's takes up entire rooms?
kb9vqf	remember I've got four distros on three architectures
kb9vqf	actually 5 distros
MobileTurkey	5?
kb9vqf	Lucid, Maverick, Natty, Oneiric, Squeeze
MobileTurkey	right
kb9vqf	technically Squeeze builds on armel and the others don't
kb9vqf	but that will change
Xu_R	test
MobileTurkey	most of the work was probably already done
Xu_R	awesome
Xu_R	it works agian
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MobileTurkey	the compilation fixes
MobileTurkey	Xu_R: :)
Xu_R	^_^
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MobileTurkey	6 weeks is a long time, are you sure kb9vqf?
Xu_R	oh, i don't think I'll be able to even allocate 2 cores right now XD
Xu_R	https://build.opensuse.org/monitor
kb9vqf	yes, that's why I leased this cluster
kb9vqf	otherwise it takes too long
MobileTurkey	Xu_R: is that free?
kb9vqf	yes and no, basically usage is shared with a business
MobileTurkey	actually, archlinux has that too
MobileTurkey	now I think
kb9vqf	when the business needs it Trinity cannot use it
MobileTurkey	but its only for core developers
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Xu_R	MobileTurkey: yup
Xu_R	MobileTurkey: the buildservice has always been free.
MobileTurkey	cool
MobileTurkey	I am going to give 1 month till GIT is done in the timeline
kb9vqf	ok
MobileTurkey	12/01/2011
Xu_R	i know that they added mandriva repo generation a few weeks ago, and they're working on adding arch pkginfo support
Xu_R	cool. gives me enough time to finish packaging. I hope.
MobileTurkey	?
MobileTurkey	oh
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: Q/A starts at 6 weeks before release
MobileTurkey	ok
MobileTurkey	that is a LONG time
kb9vqf	that can easily take a couple weeks
MobileTurkey	6 weeks ago we were still getting display config done.
kb9vqf	I know
kb9vqf	and this release shipped with some pretty big bugs
kb9vqf	I don't want a repeat
KingSphinx	Bugs? Hoo boy
kb9vqf	The Q/A team has to flush out the bugs, we have to patch them, they have to retest...
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: do we have a slackware release 3.5.13?
kb9vqf	not yet
kb9vqf	we didn't give Darrell enough tim
kb9vqf	*time
MobileTurkey	is he working on it?
kb9vqf	When I demand 6 weeks there are good reasons for it :)
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	AFAIK
kb9vqf	KingSphinx: See the known issues section of the release notes
kb9vqf	if you don't use the affected apps you won't notice them
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: When you have saved your changes to the Wiki let me in there for a sec please :)
* kb9vqf wants to correct something
MobileTurkey	saved
MobileTurkey	well its loading...
MobileTurkey	saved
kb9vqf	ok hang on
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: ok, you can have it back now :)
kb9vqf	please specify a start of the code hacking period
kb9vqf	I suggest 3 days after the GIT migration is complete
kb9vqf	to give time for the patches to be committed
kb9vqf	*reviewed/committed
MobileTurkey	ok
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* Xu_R is rebooting server
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: 12/03/2011
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MobileTurkey	12/04/2011 acutally
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	also I would expect development to slow down over the holidays
MobileTurkey	right that is natural
MobileTurkey	for me it will be the opposite though
MobileTurkey	I have a month off of school
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	Can you work on the HAL replacement?
kb9vqf	i.e. do you have the know-how?
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kb9vqf	the specs have been rotting on the Wiki for some time now
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MobileTurkey	I dont have the know how
kb9vqf	ok
MobileTurkey	I dont have any computer know how
kb9vqf	??
MobileTurkey	in fact i have never taken a computer course!
kb9vqf	ah, ok
MobileTurkey	but I tend to learn as I go along
MobileTurkey	I will poke around
kb9vqf	well...HAL replacement is a bit ambitious for this release cycle unless samelian can help IMHO
Xu_R	kb9vqf: just pointing this to you... http://rxu.lincomlinux.org/2011/10/knetworkmanager-not-09-compatible.html - seems like I tend to attract the plasma nm dev (hehe...)
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: what will you be doing? Qt4?
kb9vqf	NO
kb9vqf	Qt4 could take years TBH
MobileTurkey	:[
kb9vqf	I don't have that kind of time
MobileTurkey	Xu_R: not done gtk3 at all :P not even close
kb9vqf	yeah, was going to say that
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: well what are the proposed release goals
MobileTurkey	we should work on that page as well
Xu_R	MobileTurkey: oh well. :P
kb9vqf	I would like to see TQt3 and Qt4 get along in the same application
kb9vqf	that opens up a world of possibilities, including a first generation Trinity theme engine for Qt4
MobileTurkey	webkit as well
kb9vqf	that will also probably take most of the 3 month dev cycle on my part
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	and technically solid or another similar Qt4 hardware layer
kb9vqf	so in my book it's High Priority
kb9vqf	we will also inherit all the bugs that were not fixed from 3.5.12
kb9vqf	they will need to be fixed
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kb9vqf	and I can't do anywhere near all of them on my own *hint* *hint*
KingSphinx	Not to be nitpicky, but isn't Trinity's theme just Kubuntu 8.04's theme with a different default wallpaper? :P
MobileTurkey	KingSphinx: yes.
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MobileTurkey	thats another thing
MobileTurkey	someone on artwork would be awesome
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	this is another goal for 3.5.14
kb9vqf	there are a lot of very nice themes on kdelook
kb9vqf	that might offer a starting point
KingSphinx	Is the "Crystal T" still just temporary? IMO, it rather suits the project.
kb9vqf	nope, the Crystal T is permanent
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: yes we should at least import some as our own
MobileTurkey	kdelook is has tons of valuable stuff
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	actually we should get a TDE section on there :))
MobileTurkey	that would be cool
KingSphinx	Wouldn't hurt to give the new section a shot, it'd give lots more attention to us
kb9vqf	for most things (such as wallpapers) a direct mapping to KDE/KDE4 would work just fine
kb9vqf	it's only KDM themes, widget styles, and descorator themes that will need separate code
kb9vqf	*decorator
kb9vqf	and actually KDM themes use XML files, so they are probably fully compatible
MobileTurkey	what do you think about changing the default look?
MobileTurkey	or are we happy with it?
kb9vqf	everyone here should be thinking of what they want to see in 3.5.14 so we can prioritize in the meeting on the 15th
kb9vqf	a better, less clunky look would be a Good Thing
kb9vqf	I never use that theme.  Ever.
kb9vqf	and come to think of it no one else that I know of does either
kb9vqf	it really does need to go, but the art/look+feel aspect of Trinity has not been given much attention
MobileTurkey	hehe
MobileTurkey	also, signing up for GSOC next year?
kb9vqf	GSOC?  Hmmm
kb9vqf	Depends on the amount of work I would have to go through to do so :))
Xu_R	GSOC might be a good idea
KingSphinx	Use what, the Hardy Heron look?
MobileTurkey	I mean it's like a full time developer for a few months
MobileTurkey	paid in full by google
kb9vqf	yes, I know, so it would be quite nice
kb9vqf	we'll see
MobileTurkey	I think mostly the student would just check in with the mentor (you)
MobileTurkey	and stuf
kb9vqf	can you gather some info (deadlines, etc.) for the meeting?
MobileTurkey	unlikely we'd be picked but giving it a shot
kb9vqf	sure, I agree
MobileTurkey	http://www.google-melange.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2011/faqs
MobileTurkey	some bedside reading for you guys about GSOC ;)
Xu_R	:o
kb9vqf	ok, looks good
kb9vqf	though we will have to prioritize what we need most badly ;-)
kb9vqf	pie-in-the-sky type stuff
kb9vqf	anyway, do remember to think about the upcoming meeting
kb9vqf	meetings are much more productive when people come prepared
kb9vqf	this is going to be a planning meeting to set the direction of the 3.5.14 release
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: Can you handle meeting date/time setup?
MobileTurkey	aye captain!
kb9vqf	Also a pre-meeting skeleton on the Etherpad would be good
MobileTurkey	I'll scurvey off the seven seas if i hafta
kb9vqf	:))
kb9vqf	hmmm...that might make the project look bad ;-)
Xu_R	i'll try to check etherpad soon
Xu_R	lolol.
MobileTurkey	sounds like good stuff for tomorrow during my history class :P
kb9vqf	hehe
MobileTurkey	now I think it is time to go to bed
MobileTurkey	my eyeballs are falling out of my head
Xu_R	>_>
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MobileTurkey	been staring at this screen all day without glasses
Xu_R	:-\
MobileTurkey	language updates should also be key
exc_	wiki has some links to etherpad, but etherpad can't be viewed without registration
MobileTurkey	exc_: yeah :/
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: ^ are we going to fix that ever?
kb9vqf	ah dar
kb9vqf	*darn
kb9vqf	yes, probably
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: also, is kubuntu-desktop-trinity still exist?
MobileTurkey	http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/lwozj/trinity_desktop_environment_3513_released/c2way3f
MobileTurkey	someone said they didn't see it
exc_	i don't see many packages in squeeze/i386
exc_	probably it isn't done
kb9vqf	not on the mirrors yet...
kb9vqf	it exists
KingSphinx	Lo and behold, Muon's telling me that too. Searching "trinity" gives a whole bunch of crud, but using sudo apt-get install kubuntu-default-settings-trinity kubuntu-desktop-trinity yields nothing.
kb9vqf	MobileTurkey: I updated the 3.5.14 roadmap
MobileTurkey	ok
kb9vqf	KingSphinx: The package lists have not yet made it to the mirrors.  Trust me, it's there (I'm staring right at it on my local repository)
kb9vqf	I am starting to think I really bungled by sending out the notice before the binaries were mirrored
kb9vqf	Oh well, live + learn
KingSphinx	Well, at least I know the repos are working.
MobileTurkey	yeah :/
kb9vqf	sorry all
kb9vqf	allowing more time next release so we won't have this problem :))
KingSphinx	Is this the first release to have this "problem"?
kb9vqf	yes, because it was rushed a bit at the end
kb9vqf	the Fedora/RHEL packages were a surprise
kb9vqf	and have been bogging down the mirror resync
KingSphinx	A rather pleasant surprise, but it doesn't help mirror matters
kb9vqf	right
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: okay so the roadmap looks excellent
MobileTurkey	week of march 18th is when we go into freeze if we release the 1st
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	ironic that we are coming OUT of the deep freeze weather-wise at that point :)
MobileTurkey	hehe
MobileTurkey	okay I am going to bed
MobileTurkey	Goodnight Xu_R, kb9vqf, KingSphinx
Xu_R	night
kb9vqf	gn
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likedit	I came from http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTAwOTk here. As a normal user, when KDE 4 was released I went over to Gnome. Now Gnome3 is there and I will likely go to XFCE since it is in most Distros avaible.  The screenshoot of Trinity made me feel nostalgic... I hope you can keep it alive, because I really think it is the better DE. I am sure the newer DEs will fail at some point, that would be your time t
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edogaa	lol, on one note I Don't think they'll fail, these DEs will always have their users but I Wouldn't be surprised when Trinity gets some popularity from users like...well who just like the KDE3 way of doing things
KingSphinx	Or those who just want a good, stable, traditional desktop?
edogaa	Well, that's in the same category as people who like doing things the kde3 way, or rather the group I ptu them into lol
edogaa	But same group could also go for forks of GNOME2, maybe GNOME 3 with an improving fallback mode? Or XFCE4. KDE3 is still better in a lot of otherways but I try to be realistic rather than seeing every project falling :/ and yadda yadda...
edogaa	hmm, fedora finshed :O gonna try the liveCD brb
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 573 filed by f.couperin@online.fr.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=573 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, [mirrors] Debian mirrors don't exist
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 573 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=573 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, [mirrors] Debian mirrors don't exist
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edogaa	hey
edogaa	So
edogaa	wget http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity/rpm/f15/trinity-3.5.13-f15.repo
edogaa	when i do that, i get a 404 error
edogaa	i sleep
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xirotyu	hello, i want to ask where is the kde-trinity package on debian squeeze? E: Package 'kde-trinity' has no installation candidate
xirotyu	is that only a meta package...?
Z_God	xirotyu: are you sure you followed all the instructions with adding the repository?
xirotyu	yes.. using the debian squeeze repo but the debian is using unstable
Z_God	maybe the mirrors are not all up to date yet or smth
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xirotyu	hmm maybe..
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 574 filed by nick@leverton.org.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=574 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Enh: konqueror-trinity should use alternatives system to update x-www-browser
edogaa	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/installation.php#redhat  when I follow that and try to wget the link for Fedora 15, I keep getting a 404.
edogaa	just thought i'd try and make it more descriptive
Space_Man	maybe the mirrors are not up to date
Xu_R|School	mirrors are still syncing
edogaa	Oh? How long do they usually take o.o?
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Space_Man	how long is a piece of string?
* Space_Man doesn't know
Xu_R|School	iouno. takes a while though.
Xu_R|School	bbiab
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rzs19	hello, the mirrors are rdy?
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edogaa	AH
edogaa	thanks, I'll go to class now and see if it works later.
edogaa	see ya!
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MutantTurkey	Xu_R: Are you going to make the meeting announcements?
MutantTurkey	http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/KDE-3-5-fork-Trinity-updated-1369987.html
MutantTurkey	nice linkey :)
MutantTurkey	saw 2 articles on the runet as well as a spanish article
MutantTurkey	Z_God: six pages of comments on the osnews article!
Z_God	MutantTurkey: yeah I saw it, but it's really mostly about KDE 4 :S
MutantTurkey	I know
MutantTurkey	still it's publicity
MutantTurkey	who gives a crap about kde4:P
MutantTurkey	obviously they are all dissatisfied
Z_God	I also submitted the new to the dot btw ;)
Z_God	news*
Z_God	I wonder if they'll post it
MutantTurkey	the dot?
MutantTurkey	also I saw some on 2 russians websites
MutantTurkey	did you post this?
MutantTurkey	32 upvotes on reddit as well...
Z_God	no, I didn't
Z_God	http://dot.kde.org/
Z_God	it seems people are also writing about gnome 2.x forks
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MobileTurkey	I cant read russian but, http://www.nixp.ru/news/Trinity-Desktop-Environment-3-5-13-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C-KDE-3-5.html
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MobileTurkey	i doubt though they'll cover trinity on dot.kde
Z_God	it was mentioned once
Z_God	in a svn write-up
MobileTurkey	look!
MobileTurkey	http://commit-digest.org/issues/2011-10-23/
MobileTurkey	timothy is in the commit digests
MobileTurkey	as well as triniy
MobileTurkey	because we still use their svn :p
Z_God	yep, that's what I meant ;)
Z_God	and it main the front page of the dot once
Z_God	and it seems Mate or MATE is the Gnome 2.x fork
MobileTurkey	yes
MobileTurkey	its not getting much far though
MobileTurkey	started by archers :)
Z_God	I only really used gnome 1.x I guess
Z_God	don't know much about 2
Z_God	I never liked gnome and never bothered to try newer versions
MobileTurkey	yeah :/
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MutantTurkey	www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Developers/3_5_14_Roadmap
MutantTurkey	working out the roadmap
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Space_Man	What is the best way to install Ubuntu Onerous and Trinity 3.5.13?
Space_Man	I currently have ubuntu 11.04
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vhumpa	Hi guys, probably been asked a plenty of times, but is there any place with the new RPM packages built? The fedora and rhel repo links go 404 as well as I cant see any rpms on the server. Still building I guess?
vhumpa	Space_Man: Does these instructions http://trinitydesktop.org/installation.php#ubuntu not work for you?
vhumpa	I'd say update to 11.10 (Oneiric), then follow them.
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Edogaa	Hey
Edogaa	http://www.osnews.com/thread?495232
Edogaa	Hmm o_O if that's true i wonder how much time is left lol?
Edogaa	I Mean, I knew it take a while to sync just wasn't sure how long :/
Z_God	Edogaa: it means they sync once per day
Z_God	not that the sync takes a full day
Edogaa	K :/ just getting a little impatient since I can't seem to install it yet. lol
Z_God	you should try finding a mirror that is complete already if you're really in a hurry ;)
rzs19	is the sync done for the debian squeeze mirrors? it just wants to update 16 packages, is that right? i want update from 3.5.12 to 3.5.13.
Z_God	you can check the versions of the packages
vhumpa	Care to share some mirrors other than http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/ ? :)
vhumpa	I'd say 5-10 hours there tops
Z_God	ah heh, I thought there were more
Edogaa	:(
rzs19	apt-cache policy kdebase-trinitykdebase-trinity:  Installiert: 4:3.5.12-0debian7+r1181781  Kandidat:    4:3.5.12-0debian7+r1181781  Versionstabelle: *** 4:3.5.12-0debian7+r1181781 0        500 http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity/debian/ squeeze/main amd64 Packages        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
vhumpa	I am downloading sources now, wonder if building them will finish sooner than the mirror sync :)
Z_God	here is another mirror
Z_God	http://mirror.its.ac.id/trinity/
Z_God	I guess you can google for more...
Edogaa	any other mirrors for Fedora 15? :D
Z_God	no idea
Z_God	maybe you can google one of the filenames
Z_God	http://trinity.mangafrance.com/
Z_God	this one is not working?
Edogaa	ah
vhumpa	Interesting
Edogaa	I found that one right about NOW xD
Edogaa	then look back here...hmmm
vhumpa	Here you go: http://trinity.mangafrance.com/f15/trinity-3.5.13-f15.repo
vhumpa	Thanks Z_God!
Z_God	np :)
Z_God	I was just googling a bit as well ;)
Edogaa	>_> Z_God while I can't have your babies can I send wave after wave of women at you as a reward!?
vhumpa	We do deserve a nice lection of RTFM now :)
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Z_God	Edogaa: what kind of women? ;)
MutantTurkey	what about women?
MutantTurkey	Lo
MutantTurkey	l
Z_God	the trinity project could really use some developers :)
Edogaa	xD
MutantTurkey	Z_God: we could use some developers
MutantTurkey	we need someone to work on kdeartwork :p
thistle_	I followed the instructions to add the Ubuntu repo and pgp key.  This part went fine.
MutantTurkey	get rid of the idea that qt3 is "ugly"
thistle_	the kubuntu-default-settings-trinity kubuntu-desktop-trinity packages don't seam to exist.
MutantTurkey	thistle_: still no?
MutantTurkey	must be still uploading to the mirror
thistle_	still no
MutantTurkey	:X
MutantTurkey	I am getting quite annoyed now
MutantTurkey	thought we had that resolved.
Edogaa	Huh?
Edogaa	Oh
thistle_	No big.  I just wanted to make sure package named didn't change.  I hate maintaining documentation my self.
Edogaa	http://www.osnews.com/thread?495345  KILL
MutantTurkey	thistle_: you could change your source to use http://mirror.its.edu
MutantTurkey	it should work
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Edogaa	http://trinity.mangafrance.com/f15/ wonder how i can get it to use this mirror, I got the .repo thingy downloaded but it seems to go here http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/trinity/rpm/f15/
Edogaa	:/ Does thsi basically go for the closest mirror automatically or something? lol
Z_God	Edogaa: maybe you can just edit that repo file?
Edogaa	Change the baseurl?
Z_God	yep
Z_God	smth like that
MutantTurkey	Edogaa: we have a bunch of mirrors
MutantTurkey	randomly selects it
MutantTurkey	load balancing
Edogaa	o.O Ah
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Edogaa	and since that mirror doesn't work at all...I'd assume it has the 'least load to deal with' and is automatically selected? or more random than that lol
MutantTurkey	Edogaa: they typically all work
MutantTurkey	with the f17 packages and RHEL last minute, it's been more than expected
MutantTurkey	not sure whats going on.
MutantTurkey	stoichiometry is so much fun >_> Xu_R
Edogaa	Hmm, noarch and 64 bit?
MutantTurkey	noarch means you can intsall on any system.
Edogaa	Ah.
Edogaa	So, I assume this includes arm, and stuff not just x86?
MutantTurkey	I assume.
Z_God	there are no binaries in noarch packages
Edogaa	looks like I'll have to wait.
thistle_	MutantTurkey: I gather you mean http://mirrors.its.uidaho.edu.  Unfortunately they do not have an Oneiric mirror.
MutantTurkey	they do thistle_
MutantTurkey	http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/ubuntu/dists/
MutantTurkey	it's there
MutantTurkey	http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/ <- thats the link you'll need afaik
vhumpa	Edogaa: Why you need to wait?
MutantTurkey	Z_God: yep
Edogaa	I keep getting stuff like, "need kde-soandso-"
vhumpa	With yum and http://trinity.mangafrance.com/f15/ repos?
Edogaa	Yes.
Edogaa	Requires: trinity-kdepim >= 3.5.13  also for kdeartwork...utils,artwork, base...
MutantTurkey	whats the problem?
MutantTurkey	It requires that
MutantTurkey	anyway, off to lunch! cya guys
vhumpa	Strange, all the packages are there
vhumpa	I do have some dep conflicts, but only due to I have F16 not 15
Edogaa	yu're right :/
vhumpa	Did you get the .repo file and edit it for the mangafrance?
Edogaa	yes
vhumpa	And yum install trinity-desktop still does that...
vhumpa	Hm, wierd
Edogaa	then, 'packages skipped due to dependency problems'
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Edogaa	when I Use --skip-broken
vhumpa	Yeah, that never helps
thistle_	MutantTurkey: I'm an idiot.  It helps to have pub in the url.  There is still no kubuntu-desktop-trinity package for amd64
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Edogaa	welcome back
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drakuwa	hello everybody, anyone know why the Fedora/RHEL repos aren't available?
Z_God	drakuwa: the mirrors are still syncing
KingSphinx	drakuwa: As far as I know, none of the repos are available yet due to mirroring issues. Adding the RHEL/Fedora repos at the last minute is actually what caused this, oddly enough. Best advice I can give is to just wait it out and check every so often to see if the mirrors are up.
KingSphinx	Next release of Trinity shouldn't have these issues though, lol
drakuwa	thanks for the answer...
drakuwa	I found this one in the logs http://trinity.mangafrance.com/f15/trinity-3.5.13-f15.repo is it worth trying?
drakuwa	not really ... ok sorry for bothering you guys, I guess I'll wait :D
KingSphinx	Eh, I'm in the same boat as you, except I use Kubuntu...
KingSphinx	...wow, I can't believe I just remembered my first experience with KDE 3.x :P
Z_God	KingSphinx: when was it? :P
KingSphinx	It was on a computer I had rebuilt as a school project, and since I had the computer for a while after the project was over, I figured I'd install Debian on it. Turns out Debian Lenny had a broken version of GDM, so I reinstalled with just the minimal set of tools, then installed KDE thinking it was going to be KDE 4.x... I was quite surprised at what had appeared instead.
KingSphinx	(I had no idea of what pre-4.x-KDE was like at the time, mind you.)
Z_God	ah wow
Z_God	so you experience KDE 4 before 3 and stuck with 3? :)
Z_God	experienced*
KingSphinx	Really liked it though, ran quite smoothly on that old Celeron processor with... maybe half a GB of RAM?
KingSphinx	And yes, my first KDE was 4.2 if I remember correctly.
Z_God	maybe you'll like KDE 1 even more ;)
KingSphinx	Funny how I used 4 before 3, and still prefer the older one. Probably has to do with how 3.x didn't crash all the time :P
Z_God	that's indeed interesting
KingSphinx	Haha, probably not, but it does look nice for something so old.
Z_God	KDE 1 ran fine with 64 MB of RAM btw :P
KingSphinx	(that was in response to 1.x)
KingSphinx	What was your first experience with KDE? (Might as well ask since I have nothing to do until the mirrors sync)
Edogaa	>_>
thistle_	I think I went fvwm then openstep for a short time then KDE3.
Edogaa	I first tried PCLinuxOS on a liveCD, it was during 2006 or so. They used KDE3, it was nice, at first I Kinda liked KDE4, but it didn't quite grow on me. :/ Tried KDE3 on debian 6 when I heard of trinity and found it to be a bit nicer.
thistle_	I tried to like KDE4 but couldn't stand how slow it made my machine.
Edogaa	Eh, I can't figure out what but I just can't like it :/
KingSphinx	4 runs okay on my machine, I just don't like how often Plasma still crashes and how memory-hungry it gets (750 MB minimum is almost Windows 7-level bloated)
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thistle_	It took a long time to compile KDE3 from the FreeBSD ports tree.
thistle_	that was around freebsd 4.6
thistle_	can't remember for sure
KingSphinx	I've heard that from GNOME 3 onward, GNOME will be Linux-only. Kinda odd how KDE is now the only real DE of coice for stuff like BSD/Solaris (unless Oracle manages to make something of their own again)
KingSphinx	*choice
Edogaa	I don't think they'l be Linux-Only
Edogaa	That was a suggest from some guy at red hat
Edogaa	If it does...then sigh.
Edogaa	I believe it was that poettering dude?
KingSphinx	Not like I use it much anymore anyway, I'm just not a fan of the direction desktops seems to be going in nowadays. Sure, they're noob-friendly, but that's at the expense of everyone else.
KingSphinx	Besides, I don't see how stuff like Trinity is any less noob-friendly than any other desktop. Heck, I'd think it would be more ideal for someone switching from Windows since it has a similar layout.
kaiomatico	Word.
KingSphinx	(plus a few advantages like multiple desktops, but that's beside the point)
kaiomatico	quick question, are there any new live cd builds coming soon? maybe even debian based, not ubuntu?
KingSphinx	Speaking of multiple desktop though, I've read that Windows doesn't include them because they believe people are too stupid to know how to use them?
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ian_	hello everyone
Edogaa	there is always virtualwin but it feels like crap
KingSphinx	And kaiomatico, there are apparently ISOs for Trinity somewhere, but I don't know where. Would love to see a Debian Live CD of this, because Debian gave me my first experience with KDE 3.x ;)
ian_	so I'm running Ubuntu 11.10, and I'm having trouble installing the project
ian_	I followed the instructions to a t
KingSphinx	Repo issues?
KingSphinx	If it's repo issues, the mirrors aren't quite done syncing yet, so I'd give it some time before trying to install Trinity.
rzs19	Debian with Trinity, Trinian :D
ian_	here's what I see in my term http://pastebin.com/x6yCPPAF
KingSphinx	Yep, that's the same thing I get. Just wait a while and try again until you're able to install it is all I can really tell you. :/
Edogaa	:/
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Z_God	KingSphinx: my first experience with KDE was with SuSE 6.1
rzs19	somone used openlinux?
rzs19	i think openlinux 2.3 was my first distribution with kde
KingSphinx	So you really did use KDE from the beginning? Wow.
Edogaa	,,,hmmmm I Wonder what SuSE stands for? o.O
Edogaa	I never paid attention but Su...SE
Edogaa	why are the last two letter in caps, is there a meaning behind it!? D:
Z_God	System und Software Entwikkelung
Z_God	or smth like that, my german is a bit rusty
KingSphinx	Sounds about right, though I don't speak German. :P
Edogaa	lol....
Edogaa	System and Software Enterprise I assume?
Z_God	no
Z_God	System and Software Development
Edogaa	Damn, I Was hoping to take a guess xD
Z_God	;)
KingSphinx	"Software and Systems Development" according to Wikipedia
Z_God	ah I switched the Ss
Edogaa	xD
rzs19	damn, under openlinux i had kde 1.1 ... long, long time ago...
Z_God	yeah in suse I used 1 at least
Z_God	dunno if I experienced 1.0
Z_God	I still have a book which describes the KDE 1 betas
Z_God	with a screenshot
rzs19	It seems like we are getting old...
Z_God	yep...
KingSphinx	1.1's not that different, I think... probably just stability improvements and whatnot.
rzs19	Here is a KDE 1.1 Development book...
Z_God	rzs19: cool :)
Z_God	no
Z_God	kool :)
rzs19	we have her on work only linux users.
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 575 filed by kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=575 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Official KDE request to rename kwin
rzs19	ähm at work*
KingSphinx	TWin? It is Trinity, after all.
Edogaa	hmmm, kde1 lol
* Edogaa is wiking KDE SC.
Z_God	KDE 1 rocked really
Z_God	it kicked Windows 98's butt
Z_God	I ran it on an AMD K6-2 333MHz with 64MB RAM
Edogaa	o.O KDE1 was released in 1998?
Edogaa	Did you guys just use window managers before then? lol
Edogaa	Like, Enlightenment 16? or FVWM?
KingSphinx	If I still had my old Compaq Presario, I'd think about putting something like Puppy on it.
KingSphinx	And yes, for the most part, people used window managers for a GUI before GNOME and KDE, I believe.
rzs19	btw: twin is maybe a bad idea for a new name, there is a textmode window manager called twin
rzs19	http://freecode.com/projects/twin
KingSphinx	Aw, really. Crap.
KingSphinx	Hmm... TrinWin?
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Edogaa	Tounqueror sounds silly, I'd say something like Tkonq would sound better. Though, the K would still have too much of KDE In it
KingSphinx	Though this is something to think about... hey, what about Amarok? If the Clementine team's help hadn't already been refused, I'd have considered changing Amarok's name to Clementine since Clementine is pretty much just a port of Amarok 1.4
rzs19	http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2011/11/the-grass-has-always-been-greener-on-the-other-side-of-the-fence/
Z_God	KingSphinx: port to what?
rzs19	yep tonqueror sounds, strange...  it was just a joke...
KingSphinx	Clementine is a port of Amarok 1.4 to Qt4; a while back, the Clementine team asked if they could help with managing Amarok in Trinity, but were politely refused.
Edogaa	Oh? :/
Edogaa	Why did you guys refuse them? D:
Z_God	and why did they port amarok again?
Z_God	there is also amarok 2 for qt4
KingSphinx	A lot of people didn't like the massive changes between amarok 1.4 and Amarok 2, so Clementine was created.
Edogaa	Yeah, clementine was a little nicer imho, surei t didn't have some of the features (that I could notice) but if you just want a music player it's nice, small doesn't get in your way and looks good.
Z_God	I see
Edogaa	mioght be wrong on the small part though lol
KingSphinx	No, you're right, one of the best parts about Amarok 1.4 was how light it was.
Edogaa	but anyways, I am curious why refuse their help? o.O;;
KingSphinx	Probably for reasons only Tim knows... :P
Edogaa	Ah
rzs19	http://www.freiesmagazin.de/mobil/freiesMagazin-2011-09-bilder.html#11_09_trinity -*grml*
KingSphinx	I wish I could understand German...
rzs19	this post... how can i explain it...
Z_God	there is only one main point really
rzs19	there stands "Trinity - Desktop without Future"
Z_God	lack of developers
Edogaa	How many active devs are there curiously?
KingSphinx	From what I read in a (sadly no longer online) review of 3.5.12, I think about... 12?
Z_God	seems like a high number to me really ...
Edogaa	Ah
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MobileTurkey	staring on arch pkgbuilds now
Edogaa	hmm
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MobileTurkey	Piki: hey doode!
Piki	i don't have doo in de!
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* Piki wishes he could be mobile
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Xu_R	MutantTurkey: ikr... I did that last year. XD it's physics for me this year, and Quest (quest.cns.utexas.edu) is killing me DX
Xu_R	MobileTurkey_: ^
MobileTurkey_	haha
MobileTurkey_	its terrible
MobileTurkey_	I dont like physics much
MobileTurkey_	Piki: anyway havent seen you in a blue moon
Piki	MobileTurkey_, i only visit orange moons :-)
MobileTurkey_	:P
MobileTurkey_	how have you been?
Piki	extremely bored, lack of job can really play tricks on the mind :-)
Piki	sometimes i don't even know what day it is :-)
Piki	hopefully one of the hundreds of places i applied at will call soon
Piki	ooh new release, gotta get to work overheating my cpu :-)
Xu_R	MobileTurkey_: yea... Yay for force and coefficients of static friction! >_>"
MobileTurkey_	Piki: try it out its nice
MobileTurkey_	Xu_R: :| lol
MobileTurkey_	Xu_R: also somone on reddit asked about your packages...
MobileTurkey_	any progress?
MobileTurkey_	<no>
Xu_R	XD I just recovered my dev machine, so.... since the last 2-3 weeks? no >_>
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Z_God	I think it would be good if timothy could write a bit with him
Xu_R	rzs19: bs.
Xu_R	that comment is bs. xD\
Z_God	my teachnical knowledge of this issue is limited
Z_God	this part is what I understood from timothy
MobileTurkey_	rzs19: where?
KingSphinx	Besides, it's not really "living in the past" so much as choosing to use this particular DE because it's the right one for whatever reason.
MobileTurkey_	I mean, trinity IS keeping 3.5 alive.
Piki	grr, knoppix doesn't provide a large enough ramdisk, gotta reboot again :-(
MobileTurkey_	there isn't an argument.
Z_God	MobileTurkey_: we're talking about this blog post: http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2011/11/the-grass-has-always-been-greener-on-the-other-side-of-the-fence/
MobileTurkey_	Piki: ramdisks resize automatically
MobileTurkey_	i though?
KingSphinx	But it's not just a rehash of old stuff as that reviewer likes to claim. :/
rzs19	maybe he fears tde? :P
Piki	MobileTurkey_, my ramdisk is 2.3GB, all of which is used, and i have 4GB RAM
Piki	apt is complaining that it's full, and i need to install the jfs modules to mount my Ark partition to do my rsync
Xu_R	Piki: try setting it when you boot the kernel
Xu_R	there's usually an option
rzs19	it makes my a little bit angry, to read his german post.
Piki	Xu_R, not in the knoppix boot menu, at least not that i can see
Xu_R	:|
Xu_R	rzs19: lol, maybe he does xD
Xu_R	or an ubuntu fanboy, but ok xD
MobileTurkey_	I responded
Piki	anyways, brb
rzs19	no.. no.. a SuSE Fanboy...
MobileTurkey_	ubuntu LOL
rzs19	if i remember
MobileTurkey_	sigh
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Xu_R	no, no, I'm the SuSE fanboy xD
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Xu_R	SuSE still supports KDE3 in 12.1
KingSphinx	Whoa, seriously?
Xu_R	yea
rzs19	well i was too a SuSE Fanboy ;)
KingSphinx	.13 or .10?
Xu_R	.10
Xu_R	although the KDE3 maintainer has an unreasonable view that pisses off other factory devs...
KingSphinx	You'd think they'd want to offer Trinity, but oh well.
rzs19	but yast is nothing for me.
* Xu_R had to stop Ilya from throwing KDE3 down a hill in early October >_>
KingSphinx	What do you mean "unreasonable view"?
Xu_R	quote: "It's not Ilya if he doesn't think that the number of packages equals the better and the more maintained" ~factory dev
Xu_R	sigh
Xu_R	anyway
KingSphinx	Ooohhh, the whole "we have more stuff, therefore we're better" view?
Xu_R	yup
MobileTurkey_	no changing ilya :/
MobileTurkey_	KingSphinx: and the "dont change anything" view
MobileTurkey_	just keeps it compiling, not improving
KingSphinx	I wonder if openSUSE has ever thought of offering Trinity instead of the quickly-bit-rotting 3.5.10?
Xu_R	it has. I'm supposed to be packaging it. >_> but Ilya is stuck in his old KDE3 ways...
KingSphinx	But Trinity works with all previous KDE3 apps, doesn't it?
Xu_R	it does
Z_God	KingSphinx: there are Trinity patches in there
Z_God	and Trinity also have multiple patches from SUSE
KingSphinx	Seems kinda quick-and-dirty if you ask me.
Z_God	it's not completely separate
Z_God	Ilya probably doesn't like the TQt idea (yet)
Xu_R	...
KingSphinx	The guy's insane to not fully adopt Trinity IMO.
Xu_R	Ilya put KDE2 and claimed it is awesome.
MobileTurkey_	Xu_R needs to get the packages done so we can just no longer deal with Ilya
MobileTurkey_	ya?
Xu_R	yea
Edogaa	what is illya?
KingSphinx	There's a screenshot of KDE 2 running on openSUSE 11.2 on Wikipedia.
Z_God	Ilya contributes patches from time to time though
Z_God	I don't think it's bad
Z_God	really?
MobileTurkey_	yes that is good
KingSphinx	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kde2.2.2-1.png
MobileTurkey_	<my freaking chrome browser wont automatically scroll down, so every new message I have to scroll....RAHHH>
Z_God	it looks real
Z_God	with that kernel version
MobileTurkey_	did everyone get my email about the meeting?
Xu_R	yup
Z_God	I'm impressed
MobileTurkey_	Xu_R: Can you facilitate it?
Z_God	I got it through the dev list yep
Xu_R	I can, but I need a day.
KingSphinx	The one thing I like about KDE 2: that granite background in just about everything. I'm a bit of a sucker for old-school stuff like that. :P
Xu_R	oh wait
rzs19	soo, i have to go home, wish you a nice evening.
* Xu_R facepalms xD
Xu_R	yes, I can
Z_God	KingSphinx: all this stuff is available in KDE 3 as well
Z_God	and it's not KDE 2's default setting either
KingSphinx	You can do that granite stuff? How? I never could figure that out in 3.5.12
Z_God	KDE 2.2.2 and 3.0 were pretty much the same
Z_God	it was mainly a port from Qt2 to Qt3
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Z_God	you can set such backgrounds for your desktop & kicker I think
KingSphinx	I got how to get the klassik (pardon the pun) theme and icons, but I could never figure out how to get that stone look.
KingSphinx	Not the wallpaper, that's easy as pie to figure out.
Z_God	you can set an image for kicker as well
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Z_God	in the panel prefs
Z_God	appearancee
Z_God	below panel background
KingSphinx	Oh, I know that... speaking of which, in 3.5.12, the Kicker images were in two separate spots, so it got a bit tedious trying to switch between them.
MobileTurkey_	git checkouts taking forever :|
KingSphinx	The default was in the proper /opt/kde3/share/apps/kicker/wallpapers location, but the rest were still in /usr/share/apps/kicker/wallpapers for some reason.
Z_God	the other way around it seems
Z_God	but it's probably a bug
KingSphinx	Can't check to see if it's fixed in 3.5.13 because the mirrors aren't working yet.
Z_God	Martin replied btw
MobileTurkey_	?
MobileTurkey_	oh thanks
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Edogaa	D: Y U BROKEN LE MIRRORS
Piki	?
Z_God	damn
Xu_R	Edogaa: Still not synced yet? >_> tim needs a backup mirror or a smart one...
Z_God	Trinity is on Slashdot!
Xu_R	:O nice
Xu_R	let ze trolling begin...
Z_God	in the comments people are writing the server is already being slashdotted
MobileTurkey_	yay :)
Xu_R	xD
MobileTurkey_	the server is under alot of load I assume
MobileTurkey_	I just wish he had more throughput
MobileTurkey_	and some stability, his provider goes down quite often
Piki	probably uses verizon :-)
MobileTurkey_	no
MobileTurkey_	verizon is rock solid
MobileTurkey_	I love me some verizon.
Piki	seems most of the ISPs in the USA aren't very reliable
MobileTurkey_	it works, its extremely stable.
MobileTurkey_	mine is rock solid. Verizon Fios.
Piki	MobileTurkey_, you haven't used my verizon connection
MobileTurkey_	never ever goes down
Xu_R	they finally wired FiOS here.  ^_^
MobileTurkey_	my power goes out before my internet does
Piki	drops off once a week for a few hours, speeds tend to fluctuate
MobileTurkey_	if only linus endorsed trinity...
MobileTurkey_	we can dream.
Piki	and this is on a fios connection that we've had for 1.5 years
KingSphinx	Maybe he doesn't know of it yet?
Piki	most of the people i talk to loathe verizon, very few actually like it
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MobileTurkey_	Piki: I loathe it for some other practices and my high bills, my terrible speeds, but it is rock solid
MobileTurkey_	I need to get business class, then i'll be happy
Piki	it drops off all the time here
Piki	every week, speeds are good IF they aren't fluctuating, they can't find out why we're having trouble, and they never send out their techs like they say they will, nor do they have record of having scheduled a tech to come out
Piki	plus it's expensive
Piki	unfortunately, i don't pay the bill, my mother does, and she thinks that since Linux is a virus (right....), i'm causing the troubl
MobileTurkey_	yea
MobileTurkey_	well :P
Edogaa	>_>
Edogaa	if my mom said that i'd tell her off for it lol...
Edogaa	not to sound mean :/
Edogaa	I Mean sure, being ignorant of how to use an OS as complicated as linux is not a problem b ut that is like the border ofi gnorance that breaks mys kull lol
KingSphinx	It's really interesting going throough the comments on Slashdot...
Piki	if i tried to tell off my mom, i'd not have a home
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Piki	Harmonium, there might be a file in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ that has the trinity repository references
Piki	hey! tbottu's back! *checks the site*
MutantTurkey	woohooo!
Piki	yep, site's back
MutantTurkey	yay!
* MutantTurkey can get back to working on the roadmap
KingSphinx	But that means a ton of stuff never got logged, right?
Piki	KingSphinx, in this channel?  right, it only gets logged when tbottu's here
Harmonium	sources.list.d is empty. Should I add the new repositories in there?
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Piki	Harmonium, if you want, you can either create a new file in sources.list.d containing the lines, or you can add them directly to sources.list
Space_Man	there is a typo on the roadmap, the date for the last line should be in 2012]
MutantTurkey	Space_Man: can you modify it?
MutantTurkey	actually dont worry
anditosan	well, the site is back up and I added the sources for oneiric and the gpg key but the kubuntu-default-desktop and trinty one do not show
MutantTurkey	I am already editing it
Space_Man	I tried, but the wiki said something about "access"
Piki	Harmonium, go to http://trinitydesktop.org/ and choose your ubuntu/kubuntu version from the Official Trinity Binaries section
Piki	it will tell you what lines to add
MutantTurkey	Space_Man: do you have an account?
Harmonium	Oh, my bad, .d is not empty. There it is.
Piki	Harmonium, if it's there, you can find the new lines on trinitydesktop.org, just modify the lines to match the new versions
Harmonium	That's done. Now should I just run the update program?
Piki	yes
MutantTurkey	aye
Space_Man	MutantTurkey: yes, I created it a few months ago
MutantTurkey	Space_Man: weird then
MutantTurkey	Actually I cant even access it at all yet
MutantTurkey	oh here we go
Harmonium	Great, there are all the new packages. That was easier than expected. Now nothing horrible should happen during the update.
MutantTurkey	...
MutantTurkey	good luck! :D
Harmonium	It appears Amarok and K3b will be removed during the update. Why?
KingSphinx	D: I still can't install it...
MutantTurkey	Harmonium: amarok from trinity?
Space_Man	finally logged in "Access check on Developers.3_5_14_Roadmap failed. Action "CHANGE": access not allowed on web."
Piki	Harmonium, if you don't interrupt the update, it should be fine. worst case, you'll just need to reset your settings for tde
Space_Man	maybe becuase it's already open?
MutantTurkey	Space_Man: no
MutantTurkey	I dont have it open now
Harmonium	Must be. This is the kubuntu 10.10 iso from the trinity site.
MutantTurkey	I may have admin access on my wiki permissions
MutantTurkey	not to sure
MutantTurkey	Space_Man: if you want to make notes for the release, add it to the etherpa
Piki	Harmonium, does it want to remove amarok or amarok-trinity? (if you don't have the -trinity in the package name, it's not amarok from trinity)
Piki	you can also search for amarok and check what version you have installed
Harmonium	no, the packages just say "amarok-kde3" and "k3b-kde3"
MutantTurkey	the kde3' name scheme has been replaces with -trinity
Piki	hmm, did tim name the packages differently for ubuntu than he did for debian?
MutantTurkey	no, old ones are called -kde3
Harmonium	Ah, I see. Thanks.
MutantTurkey	they are transition packages to the new name -trinity
MutantTurkey	Harmonium: you can probably install amarok-trinity
Harmonium	hmm... I got an error during the update. Window titled "Could not commit changes", says commiting would break packages or there was a problem downloading the packages...
Piki	mirrors might not be finished grabbing the new packages
Piki	tim's servers did go down before it could finish sending out the new packages
Harmonium	I opened the updater again. Now in the list there are two packages named "guidance-backends-kde3" and "kde-style-qtcurve-kde3" that say "BROKEN (installed)"
MutantTurkey	:|
MutantTurkey	honestly I dont really know how it works because you installed using the livecd
MutantTurkey	Harmonium: I suggest you post on the mailing list, responses are quick and it'll reach a wider crowd
MutantTurkey	maybe someone knows! (tim)
Piki	if it has synaptic, that has an option to fix broken packages
Piki	there's also "-f install" for apt-get
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Harmonium	I'd rather solve it here or leave it be. Luckily, it's just a virtual machine, so no biggie if it breaks.
Harmonium	I'll try with apt-get
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Harmonium	apt-get -f and with --fix-missing kinda starts, but gives a 404 error. Is the server down or something?
Z_God	this comment may be interesting btw: http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2505962&cid=37926384
Z_God	would be cool if Trinity devs would be able to visit such events
KingSphinx	What's Trinity's name for Krita?
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Z_God	Piki: normally yes, but I would not expect that in this case
Z_God	didn't check though ;)
Piki	might be something like krita-trinity, koffice-krita-trinity, or something of the likes. best to search the package manager and see what comes up
KingSphinx	Can't search it right no- oooohh, right, you don't need to have it installed to search Trinity packages... duh
Space_Man	hasn't krita been renamed?
Space_Man	or maybe I'm thinking of another K name
Piki	i thought we were keeping the same names?
MutantTurkey	what
MutantTurkey	does krita even build still? :x
Harmonium	Piki, that returns me an error that says I'm not superuser... even though I tried it with sudo. I'll restart and try again.
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KingSphinx	"Konversation terminated!" <--- Always fun to read in a drmatic voice.
MutantTurkey	fast reboot...
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: like the halo: combat evolved voice
MutantTurkey	DOUBLE KILL
MutantTurkey	:P
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Harmonium	It's a virtual machine.
Harmonium	OK, I still get the no superuser error when running that command. o_O
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MutantTurkey	off to band practice - making good progress on trinity + arch though...
Harmonium	are you all developers of this project?
KingSphinx	Some are, some aren't (I'm not)
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Harmonium	This project needs more publicity. It's a great idea and it's not getting enough attention.
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KingSphinx	:o Site's up!
Piki	eh? i must have been awake all night without realizing, i didn't think it had been 12 hours yet :-)
KingSphinx	Well, the site's been down for quite a while today, we thought all the attention at Slashdot had brought it down for a while.
Piki	i didn't realize an entirely different website on an entirely different server in (probably) an entirely different location could drag down trinitydesktop.org
KingSphinx	Yep, too many people trying to access a smaller site at once can crash it. It's called "the Slashdot effect" for a reason.
Piki	never heard of the slashdot effect
Piki	sounds more like an unintentional DDoS :-)
KingSphinx	You'd be right.
KingSphinx	Burning a Debian Lenny live CD just to play around with. :)
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Piki	KingSphinx, i thought lenny didn't work for you?
KingSphinx	That was an install CD, not a Debian Live version.
Piki	i didn't know debian have live cds?
KingSphinx	It also must be noted that the broken Lenny CD was for Xfce/LXDE, I downloaded a KDE spin this time. And yes, Debian does have live spins.
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user1557	I'm having problems trying to install 3.5.13.  Can someone please help?
Piki	user1557, the main servers have been down for awhile, that' probably why you're have problems
Piki	they seem to be up now, so if you want to try and see if it works, go ahead, and lets us know if you're still having trouble
user1557	I just tried a minute ago, and I am able to import the GPG key, but get "Unable to locate package kubuntu-default-settings-trinity", etc when trying to install
Piki	did you do "sudo apt-get update" before trying to install?
user1557	yes.  this is on Xubuntu 11.10
edogaa	:/ Hmm, I seriously wonder why I get those circulat dependecny is it? issue...
edogaa	lemme cp
user1557	When I try to just get kdebase-trinity, I get "Package kdebase-trinity is not available, but is referred to by another package.", etc
Piki	user1557, did you add the lines to /etc/apt/sources.list that the instructions have? the lines from http://trinitydesktop.org/installation.php#ubuntu?
user1557	When I try to get kdebase-kde3, I get "kdebase-kde3 : Depends: kdebase-trinity but it is not installable"
user1557	Piki: yes
edogaa	http://pastebin.com/306QpSAM
edogaa	is it because the servers aren't synced right still o.O
Piki	might be, tim said it would take from 24-48 hours to sync after his servers came back
Piki	user1557, edogaa, try replacing the lines from the instructions with http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/
user1557	ok, I did try that earlier, but l'll try again
Piki	you only need replace the http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/ part, everything else should be the same
Piki	so http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity/... and http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-builddeps/...
Piki	don't know if fedora is there, and i don't know if all of the versions of ubuntu are there
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Piki	but it seems some of the stuff did make it
KingSphinx	Welp, I now have a fresh Debian Lenny drink coaster... somehow, Lenny Live starts ina video mode that my monitor cannot display.
Piki	user1557, edogaa, if it doesn't work using uidaho, then you guys will just have to wait for the packages to continue syncing out
user1557	Yeah, it gave me the same message.
Piki	they were supposed to have already started going out earlier today, but with tim's ISP going down, they probably aren't anywhere close to going out
Piki	or at least, not close to finishing
user1557	I thought the Slashdot story would probably wreck the servers
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Piki	that's what everyone was saying, but tim said something about his ISP cutting their fiber optic cables when he was here earlier
KingSphinx	I have a feeling Slashdot may have caused the initial outage, because I recall the site going back up for a brief while before dying again.
Piki	and fiber optics are supposed to be hard to repair/replace
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user1557	Yeah, I didn't know 3.5.13 was out until I checked Slashdot.  Serves me right I guess.  lol
Piki	i didn't know until i looked at trinitydesktop.org today, right before it died the first time
Piki	that's when i first heard about the slashdot article :-)
user1557	OS News ran an article on it too.  Nice to see Trinity getting some attention.
n0xx0ff	humm... so i guess the repos are down right? :|
Piki	so of course when i go to download the source code (i'm going to be making packages for another distro), i get cut off and now i need to use uidaho until tim's servers stabilize :-)
Piki	n0xx0ff, partially down
user1557	of course!
n0xx0ff	bummer... :(
KingSphinx	Use uidaho's mirrors until the "real" ones come back.
Piki	tim's servers were down most of the day, that's where the mirrors get their packages, and the packages were en route to the mirrors when tim's servers went down
KingSphinx	Any idea how much made it to uidaho?
Piki	uidaho has most of the packages, should work for /some/ versions of ubuntu/debian, not sure hich
Piki	n0xx0ff, the servers came back just a few minutes ago, so more packages should be going out
user1557	Piki, thanks for the help.  I'll try again tomorrow
n0xx0ff	yeah ty Piki... :)
n0xx0ff	cya m8s
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KingSphinx	Blah... I want to use uidaho, but I don't know if I'd be left with only a partially-working system because of missing stuff.
Piki	KingSphinx, if you'll be missing stuff, apt-get won't even proceed
Piki	it'll tell you something like "not available but it's referred to by another package" or "depends on ... but it's not installable" or something similar
KingSphinx	The wonders of failsafes. :P
Piki	i think it has the --force option, but i don't recommend it :-)
KingSphinx	Guess I should get around to trying to get Trinity then.
Piki	if you're in lenny, it should alread be there since .12 was synced awhile ago :-)
KingSphinx	No, still in Kubuntu, I only burned the Lenny CD to toy around in the Live CD environment. Turns out the display doesn't work though, so I pretty much have a Lenny-labeled drink coaster.
Piki	if it was a RW, erase it and reuse it :-)
KingSphinx	So what would I add instead of the main repos? And no, sadly, it was only an R
edogaa	HMm
edogaa	I don't think that link you sent me will work, I took a look at the file hierarchy and I only see debian or ubuntu stuff on there
Piki	KingSphinx, deb http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13/ubuntu and http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/ubuntu
Piki	everything else the same
Piki	edogaa, didn't look at the fedora/redhat instructions, just noticed yum in your pastebin ;-)
KingSphinx	I meant for the uidaho mirror, I don't think pearson is quite fully up yet.
Piki	edogaa, the site is back, so you can try the instructions there again
Piki	KingSphinx, oops, hold on,
Piki	KingSphinx, http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13/ubuntu/ , http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/ubuntu/
edogaa	same thing
Piki	edogaa, http://trinitydesktop.org/installation.php#redhat
KingSphinx	I'm trying pearson once again to see if by some miracle it's back, but thanks for the info, I'll add it if pearson won't work.
edogaa	followed that
Piki	edogaa, the mirrors may not be sync'ed yet, i don't even know if tim's quickbuild has rpms, last i checked it only did debs. those repo files it has you download might point to someone else's mirror, or they may be in tim's servers but not synced yet
KingSphinx	Piki: I think I screwed up adding those to sources.list. Konsole threw up "
KingSphinx	philip@philip-Dell-DXP061:~$ sudo apt-get update
KingSphinx	E: Malformed line 63 in source list /etc/apt/sources.list (dist)
KingSphinx	E: The list of sources could not be read.
KingSphinx	...wow that all pasted?
Piki	KingSphinx, what's on line 63 of /etc/apt/sources.list?
KingSphinx	eb http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13/ubuntu/
KingSphinx	deb http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13/ubuntu/er.
KingSphinx	God, it's not pasting right, hang on.
KingSphinx	deb http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13/ubuntu/
KingSphinx	That's line 63 in my sources.list.
Piki	if that's it, you're missing two things
KingSphinx	Add /dists/oneiric/ to it?
Piki	nope
Piki	deb http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13/ubuntu/ oneiric main
Piki	it goes: deb [base-url] [distro-or-distro-version] [specific-repos-to-access]
Piki	the last part is separated by spaces
Piki	if you want to add a repo that contains the distro-specific source code packages rather than the binary packages, you'd start it with deb-src instead of deb
Piki	you can copy both of the uidaho lines and start them with deb-src if you want/need the source code used for oneirc
KingSphinx	Even if I don't, I always add deb-src to repos just in case.
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Piki	if the repo maintainers provide f\oss project and they don't provide the source code, something's wrong :-) there should always be a deb-src available
KingSphinx	*sigh* Still can't install Trinity, getting the same errors about packages not found.
Piki	even if the user chooses not to include it :-)
Piki	KingSphinx, probably not finished syncing yet, if you have natty available, i think mutantturtle said he was able to install it on that
KingSphinx	Then that means I'm hosed, I use Oneiric.
Piki	i don't use any of them
KingSphinx	What do you use then?
Piki	nor any of the distros that already have packages available :-)
Piki	i use Ark Linux
Piki	been awhile since a release, we keep running into our road blocks, i think our last stable release has kde 3.5.10
Piki	i need to get tde packages going for our development version
Piki	i'm about ready to kick our head dev though, he really needs to get things going with either apt-rpm5 or the rpm5 port of zypper, been nagging him about that for months, it's the only reason i don't have .12 packaged already :-)
Piki	unfortunately i'm not in switzerland and i doubt he's coming to pgh, so i /can't/ kick him
KingSphinx	Wow, Ark uses both RPM and APT?
Piki	our stable releases all use RPM4 and apt
Piki	but the apt-rpm port of apt wasn't ported to rpm5 until recently, and we switched to rpm5 for our development version
Piki	our head dev started porting zypper to rpm5, then seems to have quit on that when apt-rpm5 was done, now he doesn't seem to be doing anything with the package manager
Piki	but i still see his packages being updated
Piki	and his build server doesn't auto-update, and he has been on our irc channel, but he seems undecided on it
Piki	until he decides, i'm stuck with an iso from january because too much has updated for me to bother installing the new rpms by hand
Piki	*sigh* if only we could release, since we're for newbies, we could bring newbie attention to tde, more potential testers and coders for both tde and ark
KingSphinx	Ark seems about as newbie-friendly as older versions of Ubuntu... that's a compliment, the newer releases of Ubuntu do a bit too much hand-holding for my taste
Piki	um... us Arkies would rather not be compared to ubuntu, we hate it :-)
Piki	especially our head dev, he thinks they're owned by microsoft ;-)
Piki	i personally don't hate it, i just dislike it, it has gotten better, but still not good enough for my tastes
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edogaa	hmm
edogaa	using both apt and rpm seems a bit messy
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duindain	Hi, im trying to install this on ubuntu 11.10 and its failing on the last part of the install instructions
duindain	sudo apt-get install kubuntu-default-settings-trinity kubuntu-desktop-trinity
duindain	does anyone know how to fix this?
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duindain	sudo apt-get install kubuntu-default-settings-trinity kubuntu-desktop-trinity
duindain	Reading package lists... Done
duindain	Building dependency tree
duindain	Reading state information... Done
duindain	E: Unable to locate package kubuntu-default-settings-trinity
duindain	E: Unable to locate package kubuntu-desktop-trinity
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 576 filed by a9926242@nepwk.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=576 blocker, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Kubuntu mirrors broken
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kion	hey there, I have trouble updating to 3.5.13 from 3.5.12 - looks like not all packages are there on server so far... is it (release) still in progress?
Z_God	kion: yes, you will have to wait till at least Friday
kion	oh, I see. thanks a lot for the quick reply!
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Fleck	64bit kubuntu
Fleck	addes sources
Fleck	E: Unable to locate package kubuntu-default-settings-trinity and E: Unable to locate package kubuntu-desktop-trinity
kion	as was just answered above - you have to wait until at least Friday - not all packages are on the server (release in progress).
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Fleck	ok thx
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Lovecraft	Any idea how to fix this after having followed the installation instructions on trinitydesktop.org for Debian? E: Package 'kde-trinity' has no installation candidate
Fleck	:)
Fleck	Lovecraft work in progress
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Lovecraft	Thats too bad.
Fleck	[14:02:11] <kion> as was just answered above - you have to wait until at least Friday - not all packages are on the server (release in progress).
Fleck	:)
Lovecraft	I see.
Fleck	i had the same q. :)
Lovecraft	Okay.  Thanks. :)
Lovecraft	well rod rammit.
Lovecraft	happy trails.
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Cypress_	Hi people. I am currently trying to install Trinity in Ubuntu Natty. I added the proper repositories but when I launch &#8221;sudo apt-get install kubuntu-default-settings-trinity kubuntu-desktop-trinity&#8221; it gives me E: Unable to locate package kubuntu-default-settings-trinity / Unable to locate package kubuntu-desktop-trinity
Cypress_	could anyone tell me what the package name for the entire DE is?
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fos	Cypress_: the names are correct, but the repositories aren't up to date yet.
Cypress_	I see. Thank you.
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juan3	hello
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Fleck	hey juan3, whats up?
juan3	I have a problem installing Trinity
Fleck	missing packages?
juan3	I can't find kde-trinity
Fleck	[14:02:11] <kion> as was just answered above - you have to wait until at least Friday - not all packages are on the server (release in progress).
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juan3	ahh ok
juan3	thank you
Fleck	np :)
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ian_	I read that a new release was out so I ran an apt-get update on my Debian Squeeze which uses Trinity.  Nothing was updated.  When I looked into this further I discovered that it's been released in such a way as to need a whole new set of entries in sources.list.  This seems to be a poor way to release an update for Debian packages.
MutantTurkey	?
MutantTurkey	it was quite necessary because it's an entirely new release
MutantTurkey	some package names changed etc
MutantTurkey	especially since some people will continue running 3.5.12 on systems that are too old for 5.13
ian_	It's numbered as a point release, .12 to .13.  What's the recommended way of updating?  Do I have to remove the old one first?  What happens if I don't? Do I do apt-get update or apt-get install?
MutantTurkey	first you should read this mailing list post that just came out
MutantTurkey	(just read it myself)
MutantTurkey	http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::3292
ian_	Thanks for that, MT.  I'm not on the mailing list so I hadn't seen it.  So it looks as if it might be worth waiting for a day or two.
ian_	But if the release team are reading this it might be worth making clear to users what's the best way for .12 users to update.
MutantTurkey	ian_: I suggest you get on the announcement ML, it's very low traffic, but has information like that.
ian_	Maybe - but really stuff like that should be there for all to see and not dependent on users being on a mailing list for cognoscenti.
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_Pete_	howdy, tried to install trinity to ubuntu oneiric according to instructions
_Pete_	but there's no kubuntu-default-settings-trinity kubuntu-desktop-trinity packages
_Pete_	added repos correctly and did apt-get update ...
_Pete_	what am I missing?
Space_Man	_Pete_: [15:09] <MutantTurkey> http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::3292
_Pete_	okie, thx
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MutantTurkey	cant use more than one core at a time to build kdelibs :|
MutantTurkey	takes forever this way.
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elwood	hi all
elwood	i've added the line on my sources.list but apt is ignoring the repo. Any ideas?
MutantTurkey	hey
MutantTurkey	did you do apt-get update first?
MutantTurkey	also
MutantTurkey	http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::3292
MutantTurkey	read
elwood	yes i've added the gpg key and update. during apt-get update it says nothing and then
elwood	E: Impossibile trovare il pacchetto kubuntu-default-settings-trinity ...and apt-get policy gives me nothing
elwood	well, I'm on ubuntu 11.10
MutantTurkey	read that link
MutantTurkey	very relevant
elwood	ok
elwood	oh sorry, but at least I'm not crazy :)
elwood	MutantTurkey, are you using kde.trinity? I'm going to install it on my eeepc, i'm tired of gnome shell
MutantTurkey	yes I use trinity
MutantTurkey	definitely very sick of gnome shell as well >_>
elwood	I hope it will be suitable for everyday use, lxde is not so "complete"
MutantTurkey	I agree
MutantTurkey	It is quite goo dfor daily use, I have it on my work-related laptop
MutantTurkey	quite enjoy it (after some personal tweaking ;)
elwood	about style and theme?
MutantTurkey	yes
elwood	it also has showfoto and digikam, tha's great, I will love. After friday at lease :)
MutantTurkey	:) yes just dont forget about it!
MutantTurkey	I am afraid everyone will say "okay friday", then comes friday and everyone no longer has interest
elwood	ahaha, no i will not,for sure
elwood	I'was expecting from time a 3.5 fork :)
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petris	Hi All, is there someone who succesfully upgraded trinity on debian stable?
petris	I getting redirected to http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/ubuntu/ where a lot of packages are missing
petris	the configured source is http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian/
_Pete_	petris: http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::3292
petris	_Pete_: Thanks!
MutantTurkey	we should just have bot automatically tell anyone who says something about "sources" "packages" or "kubuntu-desktop-trinity" them that link
MutantTurkey	:P
_Pete_	then we would have bots vs auto-bots war
Piki|Away	tell tim to have tbottu do that, maybe see if it's possible to have him monitor the sync and announce when it's done :-)
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MutantTurkey	to much work.
MutantTurkey	Piki|Away: for to little profit
Piki|Away	MutantTurkey, meh, would make things easier in the future if this happens again :-)
MutantTurkey	hopefully it won't
MutantTurkey	this release was a bit haphazard
Piki|Away	the keyword is hopefully, with tim's isp and his luck with keeping his servers running... :-)
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Firefishe	Can trinity be installed alongside the kde 4 series?
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	:)
MutantTurkey	with *minimal* damage. AKA, there shouldn't be any problems.
MutantTurkey	we're ironed it all out afaik
Firefishe	MutantTurkey: First of all, great nick! Second, just what kind of 'damage' might there be?  Like having it uninsall sudo in ubuntu? (I'm reading some reviews now.)  Anything I might want to be aware of?   Also, i can't find a FAQ anywhere.
Firefishe	uninsall=uninstall
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MutantTurkey	:P
edogaa	>_> HMm
MutantTurkey	KDE4 won' cause trinity to mess anything up
rzs19	i hope trinity is not a "kde4 dont work for me so i need a temporay solution" project. i hope its more a we go the kde3 way and they go the kde4 way. just different desktops...
MutantTurkey	rzs19: thats the idea.
KingSphinx	That's pretty much the plan.
MutantTurkey	I would have said it was temporary a year ago
MutantTurkey	or two
MutantTurkey	but it's 2011.
MutantTurkey	almost 2012
MutantTurkey	KDE3 has been dead since 2008.
MutantTurkey	we're not exactly new kids on the block like MATE
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 577 filed by tiagomnm@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=577 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Kicker has two white dots on edges of taskbar
KingSphinx	IMO, KDE3 looks a whole lot better than Plasma's default look.
rzs19	i just want to say this :) to clear some dark corners in my head
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MutantTurkey	corners cleared then
edogaa	hmm, I tried mangafrance again and noticed I can't get trinity-kdepim o.O
edogaa	I go in to the link and notice it's listed there lol
KingSphinx	I'm still waiting for Tim's server to come back, lol. I tried uidaho, but I wasn't able to get anything since I dunno what exactly is the right repo address for it.
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: its uidahoadsfasdfsaf.edu/pub/trinity
MutantTurkey	cant get freaking kdebase to build.
MutantTurkey	cmake wont find tqt-dbus
MutantTurkey	:|
KingSphinx	Wait, you're serious about the adsfwhatever stuff in the adress?
edogaa	I Wonder if I can download the RPMs and install it :/
MutantTurkey	no
MutantTurkey	I forget exactly
edogaa	and if it be wise... lol
MutantTurkey	but after the .edu
MutantTurkey	.edu/pub/trinity
MutantTurkey	ishttp://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/
MutantTurkey	afaik
MutantTurkey	http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/
KingSphinx	just that or do I need to add "ubuntu oneiric main" to the end of that?
MutantTurkey	let me check mine
MutantTurkey	http://ix.io/1X6
MutantTurkey	thats my sources
rzs19	its like, you got the best looking and cutes girlfriend and after one year she makes suicide. :(
MutantTurkey	find the trinity part, replace natty with oneiric
MutantTurkey	rzs19: WHAT? :|
MutantTurkey	is this a analogy or a story?
rzs19	ähm a mathapa
rzs19	metaphor*
rzs19	in this sample trinity is the cute gf :)
MutantTurkey	oh :)
rzs19	others are in lovewith kde4 and we are in lovewith tde, this is all. :)
rzs19	and now i go to mc donalds :D
rzs19	cu later :)
KingSphinx	AAAARRRRGGGGHHH- the repos you gave me just lead to a 404.
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MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: whats new? haha
MutantTurkey	kdebase won't build rah!~
MutantTurkey	maybe samelian will respond and save the day
elwood	oh a mirror for oneiric?
edogaa	http://trinity.mangafrance.com/f15/trinity-3.5.13/RPMS/
edogaa	I just looked in here closely and ctrl+f kdepim, I just noticed, the only kdepim thing in there is x86_64 o.O
edogaa	Yeah, it's still not synced up all the way is it lol
MutantTurkey	edogaa: did you read the email?
edogaa	Hmm, there was an email?
elwood	sure
elwood	http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::3292
MutantTurkey	reading email is #1 important
MutantTurkey	:)
edogaa	oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh
edogaa	:(
MutantTurkey	yeah
MutantTurkey	and I am stuck around waiting too now
elwood	i've learned the lesson
MutantTurkey	:)
KingSphinx	I'm stuck waiting as well... kinda hard when you've been eagerly awaiting the new release for a few months now.
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MutantTurkey	where is samelian when you need him :[
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 578 filed by tiagomnm@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=578 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, media:/ doesn't show files, remounts unit
edogaa	lol,hmm at least that aaron guy doesn't feel any animosity towards TDE
MutantTurkey	yes he set a very harmonious tone
edogaa	:/ I recall him raging at someone in the buglists for spamming too much about something related to dual screen monitors and wallpapers lol
edogaa	Or I think it was him, so I was a little surprised XD
MutantTurkey	hehe
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KingSphinx	Aaron guy?
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: again, read your mail!
MutantTurkey	tiago's bug report is awesome - he found 2 TINY (1x1) pixel dots on kicker
MutantTurkey	thats an awesome eye for detail
KingSphinx	Heheh, sorry, I haven't subscribed to the Trinity mailing lists!
MutantTurkey	no?
MutantTurkey	you should do so
MutantTurkey	keeps you well informed
elwood	is really low-traffic?
MutantTurkey	nope
MutantTurkey	devel list has daily traffic
MutantTurkey	but there is an announce lits
MutantTurkey	that is only for important release information and such
elwood	ok
edogaa	going to switch to weechat
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edogaa	and back
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tonda-1337	Hello!
tonda-1337	Just installes a brand new Scientific Linux 6.1 and i'd like to install trinity on it.
tonda-1337	But...
KingSphinx	Does Scientific Linux work with Red Hat repositories?
tonda-1337	http://pastebin.com/n9zijw2u
tonda-1337	yep. it should work
tonda-1337	trinity's mirrors just suck.
tonda-1337	:-(
KingSphinx	The Pearson repositories are still working on getting binary packages available. This most recent release has had a bit of a shaky time trying to get out, for several reasons.
edogaa	:/ sadly.
KingSphinx	(fiber lines being cut, Slashdot bringing it down accidentally, the last-minute addition of RHEL/Fedora repositories, you name it)
edogaa	D:
tonda-1337	yeah. but why do they publish a tutorial for installing it on a rhel6 machine, which is not tested...
edogaa	:/ so will it really be back up on friday or is that just optimism? lol
KingSphinx	These problems were all sort of unanticipated, since Trinity's never had this kind of wide release before.
tonda-1337	:-(
KingSphinx	This is the first release for RHEL/Fedora, and there may be openSUSE support on the way as well.
tonda-1337	so there is no way to install trinity on my sl6 atm.?! :-((((
edogaa	source? xD
tonda-1337	yeah.. of course... but i'm lazy :-p
edogaa	the most dreadful and infuriating of ways D:
tonda-1337	no.. i love compiling.. but i guess building trinity will take days and will end in some serious compile errors -.-
KingSphinx	Just out of curiosity, what desktop are you stuck with for the time being?
tonda-1337	gnome
tonda-1337	(2)
edogaa	XFCE on my end, though i can use gnome or kde4 too. :|
KingSphinx	Could be worse... you could be stuck on KDE 4.7 like me.
edogaa	lolololol xD
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tonda-1337	nah. kde4 isn't that bad... i quite like it, but i like kde3 more. easier to use
KingSphinx	I know, I just can't resist ripping on KDE4. :P
KingSphinx	It's 4.7, and Plasma still crashes for odd reasons.
tonda-1337	yep. got these errors on arch too...
KingSphinx	Whoever though making Plasma manage the entire desktop should be given a swift kick. Not only can one bad component bring the whole thing down, it goes totally against the UNIX philosophy that a program should do one thing, and do it well.
Fleck	i hate pulseaudio stuff, hate what they did with kmail and hate that new akonadi
Fleck	and few more things :D
tonda-1337	...and the new amarok..
edogaa	pulseaudio, it isn't so bad these days
Fleck	yeah, using clementine
KingSphinx	I use Clementine instead of Amarok 2
tonda-1337	i'm using clementine too... it's great
Fleck	edogaa well it is... using hwmix card and my audio has drops and pops on 6 core cpu
tonda-1337	it should be included in kde sc
Fleck	thats stupid!
Fleck	so i remove it after updates - and using pure alsa
Fleck	works perfectly!
KingSphinx	Does it pop and drop (hey, that rhymed!) on ALSA?
KingSphinx	Wait, never mind that.
Fleck	:)
Fleck	i miss normal desktop where i can put icons on desktop and they are aligned and in the same size
edogaa	yep, and were if you mass highlight the icons
edogaa	you can move them all at once
Fleck	yep! :)
tonda-1337	:-)
edogaa	and top notch dual monitor support D:
Fleck	ehh, feels so nice that somebody understands and thinks in the same way i am! :)
KingSphinx	Granted, that mode is possible in KDE4, but it just isn't the same.
Fleck	and i like that mixer thingie... you can put it in panel! :)
Fleck	and it has small volume controls :D
KingSphinx	The mixer is one of the only things I couldn't figure out in KDE3; I can't get it to put sound through my USB headset.
tonda-1337	they trashed all working linux desktops... kde3, gnome2... that's soo sad :-(
edogaa	you still have XFCE
edogaa	and LXDE
tonda-1337	lol
tonda-1337	you can't really compare them to kde3 or gnome2
KingSphinx	Technically, KDE3 isn't trashed now... it's BACK FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE! :P
tonda-1337	they aren't that complete and perfect
edogaa	and OpenBox + Tint2 + several wallpaper-like programs and every other thing you need to make a Desktoplike environment
edogaa	Though, you won't have usable Desktop icons :|
KingSphinx	And remember, GNOME 2 had 9 years to get where it was.
edogaa	With some functionality cut off along the way.
tonda-1337	of course... these things are possible, but not as comfortable as these old DEs were like.
KingSphinx	To me, my DE preference is, in order: TDE>GNOME2>GNOME Shell>KDE4>Unity
KingSphinx	And it's not even because it's oversimplified, I hate Unity because it's still a bug-ridden piece of junk.
edogaa	FOr me it's KDE3/TDE > KDE4 > XFCE4 = LXDE > GNOME > WM
KingSphinx	...I completely forgot about Xfce and LXDE!
tonda-1337	for me : TDE>Gnome2>KDE4>Unity>Gnome3
edogaa	wait, UNity is actually considered an option?
edogaa	OH BURN D:
tonda-1337	unity is better than gnome3
tonda-1337	imo
KingSphinx	Okay, KDE3/TDE>GNOME2>Xfce>LXDE>KDE4>GNOME3>Unity
KingSphinx	That should be a bit more complete.
edogaa	hmm, maybe you should put feces before unity? :D
edogaa	XD
tonda-1337	KDE3>Gnome2>Unity>XFCE>GNOME3
tonda-1337	lool
Fleck	;p
edogaa	KDE3/TDE > KDE4 > XFCE4=LXDE > GNOME2 = GNOME3(some things i can't stand though) > WM's
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tonda-1337	omg... scientific linux is soo outdated.. gnome 2.28
tonda-1337	(i know.... enterprise os..)
tonda-1337	bye bye
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aalecs	!seen samelian
tbottu	aalecs: samelian was last seen in #trinity-desktop 6 weeks, 2 days, 2 hours, 50 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <samelian> test it when you have time
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edogaa	hmm...curious
edogaa	!seen edogaa
tbottu	edogaa: edogaa was last seen in #trinity-desktop 4 seconds ago: <edogaa> hmm...curious
edogaa	You can't blame me lol...
Space_Man	!seen tbottu
tbottu	Space_Man: I have not seen tbottu.
edogaa	XD I was hoping it make a wisecrack like all the other bots i've seen
edogaa	lololol, I see some trinity stuff in packagekit
edogaa	But not a lot
MutantTurkey	sigh
MutantTurkey	kdebase bails out at 84%
edogaa	i know, i know biut i only saw it looking for font
edogaa	oh... thought you were signing at the time it takes
MutantTurkey	that too
KingSphinx	PackageKit has stuff from Trinity?
edogaa	As in, I was looking for fonts and saw trinity-fontstuffhere-morestuffhere-noarch...
edogaa	or something like that
edogaa	and that is the only thing i see.
KingSphinx	MutantTurkey: You don't use Ubuntu/Debian/Fedora, do you?
MutantTurkey	I use ubuntu for development on trinty
MutantTurkey	but I only used it because Archlinux didnt have Trinity packages
MutantTurkey	but now I am getting much progress on it
MutantTurkey	so maybe back to arch?
MutantTurkey	all I need is kdebase to build
KingSphinx	Fun stuff. :P
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MutantTurkey	rahhh!
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edogaa	not to sound like a jerk but i always keep finding out while having bleeding edge stuff is nice, i tend to dislike using arch.
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Piki	i tried it recently, what i didn't like was pacman, after using dpkg and rpm based package manager for so long, pacman seemed a bit alien to me
Piki	took me awhile to figure out how to add the tde repos from arch's repos, otherwise i liked arch
Piki	arch's wiki*
Piki	of course, it's still not my favorite distro :-)
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Aquarius	heya people
Space_Man	hi Aquarius
Aquarius	hey Space_Man.. how's it kicking bro..
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KingSphinx	Wheeeeeeeeee... still waiting.
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KingSphinx	I just hope Trinity binaries are available by this century... >_>
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MutantTurkey	building again!
MutantTurkey	:D
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: its been like a day....
KingSphinx	I know, I've just been waiting for quite a while, and I had expected to have been usig it by now. :/
KingSphinx	*using
MutantTurkey	anyway its building perfectly!
MutantTurkey	looks like i forgot to remove my old cmake cache :/
MutantTurkey	that caused it to keep breaking
MutantTurkey	sigh, my life http://imgur.com/r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu/U3oLO
MutantTurkey	lol
MutantTurkey	57 percent oh yeah!
MutantTurkey	76% oh yeah!
KingSphinx	76% built?
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KingSphinx	Did it build?
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MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: 81% and it broke :[
KingSphinx	Sounds like your computer just hates you today. :P
MutantTurkey	holy crap its at 98 percent
MutantTurkey	I had to hardcode that path and thats about it.
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MutantTurkey	wooohooO!
MutantTurkey	compressing the package will take forever
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MutantTurkey	okay finally ready to test :x
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KingSphinx	Downloading Xfce now... tired of putting up with KDE4.
KingSphinx	In all fairness, I really should've just installed Xubuntu to begin with IMO.
KingSphinx	...and the install script seems to be hung trying to get libpurple. Awesomeness.
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MutantTurkey	Xu_R: arch packages are working and build! wohoo!
Xu_R	nice!
MutantTurkey	woot woot!
MutantTurkey	hip hip!
MutantTurkey	(hooray(
MutantTurkey	hip hip!
MutantTurkey	hooray!
MutantTurkey	hip hip!
MutantTurkey	Hooray!
MutantTurkey	:)
Xu_R	:P
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KingSphinx	Oh apt-get, y u no get libpurple?
KingSphinx	I'm trying to install xubuntu-desktop, but it always hangs after fetching 8% of libpurple.
MutantTurkey	libpurple for xubuntu-desktop
MutantTurkey	wtf?
MutantTurkey	thats pidgin.
KingSphinx	I know, remember, Xubuntu was my first taste of Linux after all.
MutantTurkey	no, I love xubuntu
MutantTurkey	but why is libpurple being pulled in>
MutantTurkey	?
KingSphinx	For Pidgin, presumably.
MutantTurkey	anyway I have class in the morning. gotta catch some zzz's
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: when did that become part of Xubuntu?
KingSphinx	AFAIK, it's been part of Xubuntu for as long as I remember.
MutantTurkey	but not part of xfce
KingSphinx	Though my memory only goes back to Xubuntu 9.04, so take that for what you will.
MutantTurkey	My first install was 7.10
MutantTurkey	:)
MutantTurkey	anyway goodnight all
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: so happy its packaged :P whew
MutantTurkey	giant weight off my chest
Xu_R	:D
MutantTurkey	:) if you see tim let him know
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Strangelv	:: belatedly notices the 3.5.13 repository links he din't see the last time he looked.  He cheers
KingSphinx	Which links?
* Strangelv : http://www.trinitydesktop.org/installation.php
Strangelv	"Now following the directions and wondering why it's not upgrading
KingSphinx	You'll have to wait until at least tomorrow for installation to work though. D:
Strangelv	"Okay
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KingSphinx	A number of mishaps have delayed binaries...
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* Strangelv : Rose/Miros says, "yikes"
Strangelv	I've got a friend who's trying to install or reinstall, and right bfore he stopped responding in ASI MOO he mentioned that he accidentalyl downloaded and installed the KDE 4 version of Meerkat
Strangelv	"Does deb http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/trinity/ubuntu/ maverick main still work?
KingSphinx	Dunno, haven't tried it.
Strangelv	"It's what I have in my sourlces.list file
* KingSphinx runs Oneiric, and is stuck on KDE 4 for the time being
Strangelv	I've taken teh opposite approach -- I've resorted to sticking to the Meerkat, despite picking it over stabel so that I could keep up with the update schedule.
Strangelv	As the saying goes, the best laid plans of mice and men are generalyl bout equal...
Strangelv	"I'm not sure what I'd run if i couldn't run TDE.  It definietly wouldn't be KDE 4
Strangelv	:: would not phisically get away with hurling his $2000+ 8 core workstation across his bedroom after he had too much from KDE 4
Strangelv	"nevermind that it's unlikely I'm ever going to be able to splurge that much on a machien again
Strangelv	"I most definitely couldn't do that now
KingSphinx	I probably should've just installed Xubuntu instead of Kubuntu, but I wanted to try a KDE-only approach. Not exactly an excellent idea, to be honest.
Strangelv	"How much has improved since 4.1?
Strangelv	"The only bright spot that I can remember was Konqueror
KingSphinx	It's improved quite a lot stability and speed-wise, but it still has odd glitches and bugs.
Strangelv	"The rest of it was feeling like I was in a badly designed straight jacket
Strangelv	"What about in terms of flexibility and customization?
KingSphinx	for example, Plasma crashes and tries to restart upon shutdown a lot of the time.
Strangelv	"TDE is configured to run almost precisely the way I want it.  Crashing at shutdomwn admittedly sounds less bad than crashing at other times
Strangelv	::'s configuration starts with kicker on the left edge of his screen and 144 pixels thick.  He gets more esoteric from there
Strangelv	"The lack of autominimize admittedly was a major contriburot to my wanting to hurl my machine across the room even faster than Windows Me had me wanting to do it.  The militan,t patronizing diatribes of KDE 4 partisans did not help my peace of mind
Strangelv	"No one was militantly trynig to ram Windows Me down my throat whether I wanted it or not
Strangelv	:: had a much leass heavy and expensive machine then.  That machine is still running Jaunty becaues newer versions can't work with his easily confused 17" display that will spend all of its time displaying a red box that reads OUT OF RANGE with nwer versions of, well, anything
KingSphinx	Ever try Debian for that machine?
Strangelv	No, I've been too spoiled by Ubuntu's regular updates
Strangelv	"When I last ran Debian I was basically forced to run unstable becouse everything I needed to get a recent version of was compalied against unstable
Strangelv	...and after Sarge went gold, unstable became genuinely unstable
Strangelv	"My friends continue to taunt me about some of the problems I had with Debian half a dozen years later
KingSphinx	TDE's available for Lenny and Squeeze.
Strangelv	"Lenny was the successor to Sarge, right?
KingSphinx	I... think so?
Strangelv	"That falls under another reason I've not returned to Debian
Strangelv	"Stable is great if you want to run a server
Strangelv	"What's the meta package to install 3.5.12?
Strangelv	"The update times between stable releases for a desktop or workstation are ludcrous
KingSphinx	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/installation.php#debian
Strangelv	:: tells Mike to try apt-get install desktop-base-trinity kde-trinity from the Debian instructions
* Strangelv : MikeD says, "Unable to locate package kubuntu-desktop-trinity"
Strangelv	drat
* Strangelv : MikeD says, "wheres the instructions for 3512?"
KingSphinx	I wouldn't know, sorry. You're still on Maverick?
* Strangelv nods
Strangelv	"and that's what Mike's trying to install
Strangelv	Or rather, has installed and is tryingto get TDE running on it
Strangelv	"What was the old peorson computing URL? I'm having trouble finding it easily
KingSphinx	The URLs now point to 3.5.13, though I think the "current" ISOs still provide 3.5.12.
Strangelv	"Hisl ISP imposes a quota, though
KingSphinx	http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net/cdimages/index_desktop.html
Strangelv	"Looking focr the old URL so I can look with the Internet Archive for the package name
KingSphinx	Try replacing "trinity-v3.5.13" in the Ubuntu repo with "trinity-v3.5.12"? Other than that, I don't know what I can really do.
Strangelv	"BTW, Mike believes the site is still a disorganized mess
Strangelv	Right now he's looking for his pen drive that migght still have thte Meerkat disc image
Strangelv	"He found it
KingSphinx	Great!
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edogaa	:|
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Space_Man	are the 3.5.13 mirrors working?
Strangelv	:: tries again
* Strangelv : E: Unable to locate package kubuntu-default-settings-trinity
* Strangelv : E: Unable to locate package kubuntu-desktop-trinity
Strangelv	"DOe.sn't look like they're working yet
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kleinie	hi
Strangelv	"Hello.  As of two minuets ago the 3.5.13 mirrors are'nt working yet
kleinie	can i ask for some help? i want give a try to trinit-desktop, but i cannot install it on debian squeeze, kde-trinity package is not exist
_Pete_	kleinie: http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::3292
Strangelv	"The directions on the site are a source of confusion right now -- I'mwushing I had a handy versionof the older version as what's up doesn't work right this minute, but might for IIRC Lenny
Strangelv	"Lenny was the successor to Sarge or was it Squeeze?
* Strangelv lost track after defecting from Debian/Libranet to Kubuntu in 2005
* Strangelv : http://www.trinitydesktop.org/installation.php
Strangelv	"if it doesn't wokrl for you right now it might in 24 hours or so
Space_Man	" binary packages will not be available for download until Friday, November 4, 2011 at the earliest."
Space_Man	it's Friday
kleinie	yeah, i've read the news
Strangelv	"Would be nice to have the not yet obsolete directions
Space_Man	they would be useful
kleinie	will it work, if i try to compile it from source?
Space_Man	the repo's for 3.5.12 and ubuntu maverick or natty http://paste.debian.net/142618/
Space_Man	kleinie: I don't know
kleinie	i'm impatient :)
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Strangelv	"Are there two meta-packages or just one?
Strangelv	"one of them might be kubuntu-desktop-kde3
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jimmer_gabe	is there a dependency list for the trinity code-pile?
* Strangelv , the wrong person to ask, looks at Space_Man
Z_God	Strangelv: it's kubuntu-desktop-trinity now I think
Z_God	all -kde3 is -trinity in the new version
Strangelv	"The new version isn't working yet
Strangelv	"As of about half an hour ago
* Strangelv has had more than one person ask for directions since the page with the not yet current direction went up, and one of those people were asking someplaec other than here
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Z_God	according to timothy, it would definitely not work before friday
Z_God	but I think we'd better wait longer
Z_God	especially since it's only night there as well
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Fleck	its 5day!
Fleck	14:34pm here allready
* Strangelv granuitously confirms that we're still not there yet
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duindain	whats the eta on the mirrors being up?
duindain	E: Unable to locate package kubuntu-default-settings-trinity
duindain	E: Unable to locate package kubuntu-desktop-trinity
Strangelv	It's a guessing game; by muessi s soemoen would pop up in here and tell us if it was ready
Strangelv	"My guess, as well
duindain	ok
duindain	yesturday they said wait till friday
Z_God	it was "at least till Friday" ;)
Z_God	for testing, it's already possible to download the Fedora live-cd I guess
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feindbild	hi :)
Strangelv	"Hello.  In answer to your most probable question, it's not ready yet
feindbild	I'd like to clone http://git.trinitydesktop.org/viewgit/?a=summary&p=Trinity%20Desktop%20Environment%20Packaging but I can't find the git URL anywhere :o)
Strangelv	"Z-God mentioned a Fedora LiveCD if that's of value, not that i know where it is
* Strangelv needs to learn Git; does that count?
feindbild	:P
feindbild	bot?
Strangelv	"tbottu is the bot
Strangelv	I don't remember its feature set, though
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rzs19	hello :)
feindbild	hi :)
rzs19	sounds your listen to "feindflug"
feindbild	lol, occasionally :P
rzs19	nice
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feindbild	do you happen to know the git url for http://git.trinitydesktop.org/viewgit/?a=summary&p=Trinity%20Desktop%20Environment%20Packaging ? I can't find it anywhere and all the other svn urls I found are out of date too
feindbild	kind of silly the web frontend doesn't give you any git URL's ^^
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Fleck	any plans on makein trinbuntu? :D
Fleck	*making
feindbild	me? no, trinarch, as soon as I get my hands on the PKGBUILDs so I don't have to redo all the work
* Strangelv still visualises a tuba logo when he thinkis Tubuntu
Strangelv	"We probabyrl do need a separate name from Kubuntu.  It confuses people
Fleck	tubuntu is nace name too :D
Fleck	omg
Fleck	*nice
feindbild	http://git.trinitydesktop.org/ <- wait, do you need an account just to clone? O_o Anyone got a public clone up?
Z_God	feindbild: you need the packaging scripts?
Z_God	the trinity code itself is still in KDE's subversion repository
feindbild	Z_God: yes :)
Z_God	ok, then I can't help you, I don't know anything about trinity git
Z_God	sorry
feindbild	Z_God: need the scripts, having access to the repo would be nice so I can send patches ;)
feindbild	ok, thanks :)
Z_God	the repo with the code is here: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/
feindbild	Z_God: yes, found that :) But I don#t want to start from scratch with the build scripts :/
Z_God	which distro are you using?
feindbild	Z_God: archlinux
Z_God	I think there is someone working on getting arch packages ready
Z_God	you should hang in here & he will probably show up :)
feindbild	aah, cool, thanks :)
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Space_Man	3Buntu, Tribuntu or UbuntuTrinity
Space_Man	and the mirrors are still borked :(
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 579 filed by raron@vipmail.hu.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=579 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Amarok don't start, amarokapp: symbol lookup error
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KingSphinx	Well, today's supposedly the day...
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Space_Man	"... not be available for download until Friday, November 4, 2011 at the earliest."
Space_Man	KingSphinx: give it some more time :P
KingSphinx	I know... by the way, I borked my Kubuntu install last night, and I reinstalled using Xubuntu. Very light, but Xubuntu has problems with stuff like USB headsets.
KingSphinx	More specifically, Xubuntu won't work with my USB headset's volume control properly. Oh, the applet will show the bar going up/down with my volume, but the actual volume level doesn't change.
KingSphinx	I suspect mixer conflicts because both ALSA and Pulse seem to have been installed.
Edogaa	>_< Moar tiem
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Edogaa	bac
Edogaa	back*
Edogaa	out of curiosity, how does TDEs volume control work when Pulse is installed?
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Space_Man	it works quite well
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Aquarius	hiya.
Aquarius	can anyone tell me how to upgrade to 3.5.13?
kleinie	which distro?
Edogaa	If on Fedora, lots and lots of patience
Edogaa	:(
Aquarius	Debian
kleinie	then no way
Aquarius	hm. Why is that?
kleinie	squeeze?
Aquarius	yep.
kleinie	broken depency
Aquarius	hm...
Aquarius	ok.
kleinie	http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::3292
Aquarius	what if Ubuntu?
Edogaa	:(
kleinie	i didn't tried ubuntu, but i think binary packages are not working neither in ubuntu, neither in debian
Aquarius	i see...
Aquarius	too bad.
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Aquarius	anyways.. i'm happy with the current version still... but i have some settings issues... audio is still not resolved.
seeks	Hey guys, I have a question about installing this under Ubuntu 11.10...
Aquarius	requires some delicate configuration.
Aquarius	won't work. Try 11.04.
seeks	Hmm.
Aquarius	11.10 is not yet supported by Trinity as far as i'm concerned.
seeks	Well, that's too bad I guess
seeks	Will just adding Natty's sources for apt work?
Aquarius	no idea.
seeks	Fair enough.
seeks	Alright, thanks.
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kleinie	oneiric is supported in 3.5.13, isn't it?
Space_Man	you could add Oneric's source lines and then install the kubuntu-trinity desktop
Space_Man	there isn't a Ubuntu Trinity live CD
Space_Man	there is a 10.10 version, but no a 11.04 or 11.10
Aquarius	hm..
Space_Man	you can install 10.10 and then easily upgrade to 11.04
Aquarius	has anyone succeeded in setting up PulseAudio in Debian?
Aquarius	i can tell you that in latest Ubuntu it's already set up quite accurately.. is there any way to do the same in Debian?
Space_Man	sorry, I have no idea how pulseaudio works
* Space_Man uses ubuntu
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kleinie	Aquarius, why do you want to use pulse?
Aquarius	because only Alsa doesn't work.
MadEchidna	"Trinity Desktop Environment 3.5.13 is out! Get it at http://www.trinitydesktop.org"
MadEchidna	I'd love to, too bad the repos are STILL empty after a week!
MadEchidna	What's the deal with that?
MadEchidna	I saw the article on OS news and was like OMGINSTALL and I've been waiting since
Aquarius	i mean.. with multistream audio... with only ALSA i can't play many things at a time... i play flash and player and skype - something takes over and sound goes off...
Space_Man	download the source and compile it yourself :P
MadEchidna	nou >_>
MadEchidna	listing repos on the site after a public release that don't even work is a massive cock tease
Space_Man	have you read http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::3292 ?
Aquarius	the thing is... my hardware seems to be a bit incompatible with the software given.. so that's why it requires delicate settings...
MadEchidna	no, I haven't. That would probably be a good thing to post on the front page eh?
Space_Man	agreed
MadEchidna	This project has gotten exposure from OSNews and frankly yall have your pants down
MadEchidna	not to be mean I'm just sayin
Aquarius	right now everything is almost fine except for one weird thing: i can't host the calls in skype. And yes, it's audio probs too. When i add one more person to a call it gets fuzzy. When someone else adds someone to a call - it's alright.
Space_Man	but Tim is busy with real life etc
MadEchidna	oh well I'll just check back next week then
MadEchidna	thanks for the link
Aquarius	also Wine shuts the sound... but i close my eyes on that.
Space_Man	maybe tomorrow!
MadEchidna	I'm leaving town tomorrow so I won't get to check until I get back
MadEchidna	anway thanks
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kleinie	Aquarius, what type of sound codec have you?
Aquarius	no idea
Aquarius	dunno even what you mean by that
kleinie	cat /proc/asound/cards
Aquarius	hm.. ok
Aquarius	0 [SB             ]: HDA-Intel - HDA ATI SB
Aquarius	HDA ATI SB at 0xfe8f4000 irq 16
Aquarius	1 [HDMI           ]: HDA-Intel - HDA ATI HDMI
Aquarius	HDA ATI HDMI at 0xfeae8000 irq 19
kleinie	yepp hda-intel sucks, is it a laptop?
Aquarius	nope.
Aquarius	just desktop..
Aquarius	strangely.. on Ubuntu there's no such thing.. i mean PulseAudio is optimized better there...
Aquarius	but i don't want this to make me go to Ubuntu... i wanna solve in Debian.
Aquarius	solve it*
Aquarius	cause i like it
kleinie	steal ubuntu pulseaudio config
kleinie	i don't use pulse, i don't know where are these files
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Piki	boo!
Aquarius	i thought of exactly the same thing...
Aquarius	you thing it's asound.conf?
Aquarius	think*
kleinie	asound.conf is for alsa
Aquarius	hm...
Aquarius	then it's .... src something, i don't remember.
kleinie	default.pa
Aquarius	hm.. okl
kleinie	but look the bright side, you can use the HDMI output, lucky man.... for me it's not working with my nvidia card :(
Aquarius	hm.. what would i use it for?
kleinie	sometimes i want watch movies on LCD tv with laptop, but the audio trough the HDMI is not working :(
Piki	hook up the computer to the TV
Piki	watch youtube and dvds :-)
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schreiberstein	Hi there!
Piki	hello
kleinie	hi
schreiberstein	How long will it take until the EL6 repos are online?
kleinie	i think just God knows :)
schreiberstein	:-(
schreiberstein	i'm really looking forward to install it
kleinie	we are too
kleinie	Aquarius, what is in your asound.conf?
Aquarius	let me show...
Aquarius	by the way... apparently i have an old version of PulseAudio... it's like 0.9 something
Aquarius	not even 1.0
kleinie	i think in ubuntu alsa is configured to use pulsaudio as default, if an application want to play sound, alsa "redirects" to pulseaudio
Aquarius	true
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KingSphinx	There! That's the second time in a day I've had to install Ubuntu, but I finally got everything working. Seems Ubuntu ain't so friendly to removing desktops anymore...
Piki	"Do it our way or else!"
Aquarius	yeah, so you better get one at once... i mean if you want xfce then you should get Xubuntu instead of plain Ubuntu and setting up xfce afterwards. tried it already, failed..
KingSphinx	But I did install Xubuntu. It kept giving me audio problems, so I tried installing the ubuntu-desktop package, then removing everything in xubuntu-desktop; and apparently, doing that now will cause your *buntu to fail to start.
KingSphinx	Hence why I just said "screw it" and installed regular Ubuntu via USB stick.
Aquarius	hm..
Aquarius	regular Ubuntu has that Unity shit....
Aquarius	in the latest version
kleinie	you can use the old gnome-panel + metacity desktop
Aquarius	hm...
Aquarius	didn't know.
Aquarius	anyways... i'm happy with TDE... it's just fine. But i gotta find a way to stabilize everything..
kleinie	in oneiric login screen above your login name, you can choose different desktop sessions
Piki	use a distro that won't crash itself when you remove the desktop you don't want
Aquarius	ahh... really?.. didn't know you can choose gnome thing there..
Aquarius	thanks for telling.
kleinie	you are welcome ;)
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Piki	Make room for the King of the Spynxes, KingSphinx!
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KingSphinx	Muahahahahaha! :P
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Piki	there's a new face :-)
Piki	welcome, samelian :-P
samelian	hello
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Harmonium	Hey, people. Is it posible to install trinity when KDE4 is also installed and expect both to work?
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KingSphinx	Harmonium: Yes, both should co-exist with few problems thanks to how Trinity installs (mostly into the /opt directory). I can't guarantee it'll be problem-free, but there shouldn't be anything major.
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KingSphinx	Personally, I've had more bugs with KDE 4 itself than with Trinity coexisting alongside it, so take that for what you will. :P
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Xu_R	SAMELIAN!!! :D long time no see :D
samelian	hi :)
samelian	Xu_R: you know, svn is unfreeze now?
samelian	I mean, I can commit new cmake files?
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Xu_R	samelian: hmm... I'm not sure :-\
Xu_R	samelian: kb9vqf should be on in a bit, then you can probably commit ^_^
Xu_R	samelian: how's everything going?
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samelian	busy :)
Xu_R	hope stuff gets less hectic then ^_^
Xu_R	ok, gotta run for dinner. be back in a bit
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isai	tried install trinity desktop on ubuntu lucid. kubuntu-default-settings-trinity and kubuntu-desktop-trinity both don't exist. help?
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Space_Man	hi isai
Space_Man	there was a problem updating the mirrors
Space_Man	just give it some more time
isai	ok
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Space_Man	this email http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::1666 from David Hare is very interesting
Space_Man	and so is Tim's reply http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::1668
Space_Man	David suggests using the nightly builds instead of the 3.5.13 repo's
Space_Man	change the deb line to  "deb http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-nightly-builds/debian/ etc"
KingSphinx	Would that work for Ubuntu or would I just substitute /debian/ with /ubuntu?
Space_Man	I assume swapping ubuntu and debian will work
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Space_Man	updated version of the 3.5.13 repo sources http://paste.debian.net/142790/
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schreiberstein	argh... still no rpm packages online :-((
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edogaa	hmm
schreiberstein	wb edogaa !
edogaa	thanks
Space_Man	schreiberstein: looks like deb's for debian and ubuntu are the only distros created for the nightlies
schreiberstein	yep.
Space_Man	otherwise patience
Space_Man	maybe tomorrow!
schreiberstein	but i don't need nightlys.. i want the stable version
schreiberstein	i hope so :-)
Space_Man	the last nightlie is the same as 3.5.13
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edogaa	:|
_Pete_	as this seems to take, do you need compile help? I have "spare" i7 with 16G mem / raid ready to compile
schreiberstein	_Pete_:  whom are you referring to?
_Pete_	someone who's doing 3.5.13 release
schreiberstein	oh yeah.. of course.. stupid me.  reallly need some sleep! :-D
schreiberstein	2:15 am -.-
schreiberstein	good night...
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KingSphinx	If the final nightlies are bit-for-bit identical with the "final" 3.5.13, then why didn't we just use those packages for the regular repos instead of totally rebuilding binaries? Or are nightlies compiled from source or something?
edogaa	hmm, i wonder if it will be up tomorrow
edogaa	eh, i'll go to sleep and check tomorrow
jumpship	KingSphinx: I was just catching up on the mailing list, and Tim says the nightlies are bit-for-bit copy of 3.5.13, but reminds to change sources.list after upgrade.
KingSphinx	So use the nightly PPA to get it, then remove the PPA once Trinity's installed?
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KingSphinx	...what's the address for the nightly PPA for Ubuntu? I can't find it in the log
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KingSphinx	Okay, found the nightlies. Trinity still asks to remove sudo though?
Xu_R	replacing with sudo-trinity is harmless.
KingSphinx	Mhm, I know, just noted it is all. Had to look up how to enable root in Ubuntu since I haven't needed to do this is quite a while. ^^;
KingSphinx	*in
Xu_R	:P
KingSphinx	Another possibly-obvious question, but upon logging in as root, I'm still in my home directory. Would I need to cd to / before apt-getting Trinity or is it okay to do it from my current directory?
Xu_R	did you do "su - root"?
Xu_R	or even "sudo su - root" works
Xu_R	you don't need to change directory
KingSphinx	Got it. Installing Trinity now :D
KingSphinx	Worst that could possibly happen is needing to reinstall Ubuntu... not too bad when you keep /home on another partition. :P
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KingSphinx	Okay, in Trinity... not all great news though, Kicker's crashing every time I open KMenu.
KingSphinx	More specifically, it seems to crash if I even so much as highlight "System."
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lostson	hello all I am trying to install trinity on my debian squeeze and I added the repo's to my sources list but when i try to apt-get install kde-trinity its says this package isn't available but referred to by another package
lostson	yet the help page on the site tells me to apt-get install desktop-base-trinity kde-trinity
lostson	ideas ?
KingSphinx	Trinity's mirrors might still be building binaries for all of Trinity due to a few mishaps, so try waiting a bit, then trying again. Sorry if that's all the help I can give right now...
lostson	well so just kde-trinity isnt available right now if i install desktop-base-trinity will that get me most of it ?
lostson	or at least get me up and going ?
KingSphinx	It might, though I'm not sure.
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lostson	nope destkop=base-trinity pulls nothing with it
lostson	hmm perhaps i can drop to version 3.5.12 for now
lostson	nope cant do that either
KingSphinx	http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net/cdimages/index_desktop.html has 3.5.12 images, but they're based on Ubuntu 10.10
lostson	yeah that is nice but no wanted to use trinity in my debian squeeze and when i read the realease notes yesterday was all excited to do it tonight but that doesnt look like it is gonna happen
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lostson	yeah most of the files are just missing cant get them
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lostson	well from what i read on the mailing list due to an outage they mirrors may not be fully populated yet
KingSphinx	Yep, the only reason I'm even in Trinity right now is thanks to the nighly repositories. I'm really hoping when the mirrors come back up that TDE gets some sort of update, the nightly version is so buggy!
lostson	maybe i can find a mirror with 3.5.12
lostson	there has to be some mirrors somewhere right
KingSphinx	I wouldn't know, but maybe replacing "trinity-v3.5.13" with "trinity-v3.5.12" might help? Just a guess...
lostson	tried that
lostson	it failed
lostson	bingo i found one for 3.5.12 and installing now
lostson	so 3.5.12 is installing now
lostson	freaking sweet
lostson	ok time to reboot hopefully i will return
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lostson	and it works
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lostson	i forgot how fast kde was to use
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* Strangelv reads "<lostson> i forgot how fast kde was to use" and is further demotivated from considering any alternatives to KDE3/TDE
* Strangelv drops deb http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/trinity-nightly-builds/ubuntu/ maverick main into his sources.list, but can't upgrade that way due to noninstallable packages
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edogaa	Saturday, 9:46 AM, still can't install trinity hmm...:/ Man, patience is my worst virtue D:
schreiberstein	Yeah... i'm getting angry
schreiberstein	guess i need to play angry birds to calm down ^^
* Piki doesn't understand what's so great about angry birds, he just couldn't get addicted
schreiberstein	Why the heck do they publish a guide for installing it without mentioning that the f****ing servers are down?!
schreiberstein	angry bird is a great game.. i love it..
Piki	who's they? trinity? if the servers are down, the site wouldn't work
schreiberstein	i meant the mirrors
Piki	i've played angry birds, i was laughing too hard to really care to play
Piki	which mirrors
Piki	?
Piki	we can't control those, all we can do is tell tim to remove them from the pool
schreiberstein	http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/trinity/rpm/f15/ - it's not down, but there are no files yet
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Piki	schreiberstein, hmm... tim gave an eta of everything being there by thursday or friday, i guess the best thing to do is to wait for tim to come on or email him and ask for an update
schreiberstein	i'll write it on mailing list..
edogaa	:/ I've tried trinity on a virtual machine through Debian before, but I never used it on an actual system since i was never a fan of debian lol
edogaa	:| Now that it's finally available on fedora it is taking a hilariously long time XD
schreiberstein	yep.
schreiberstein	but why did they publish a guide which doesn't work? even some guys on  german forum criticized it :-D
schreiberstein	i cleaned my harddrive and installed scientific linux on it... and i'm stuck because i have to wait for the trinity packages
edogaa	Stuck? o.O
edogaa	Why not just do the work you need with what you have available before KDE3 is back?
edogaa	or is this your way of trying out KDE3? o.O
schreiberstein	no... i'm working on os x most of the time.
edogaa	ah
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Piki	schreiberstein, the instructions were published because the mirrors were already expected to have the files by now, like i said we can't control the mirrors. the mirrors are hosted by other places, all we can do is provide them with the files they are supposed to host, but it's up to them how they handle actually making the files available
Piki	of course, tim's ISP cut out the other day when the files were supposed to be going to the mirrors, so that delayed uploading the files, but tim did say they should be there by friday, so it's possible that the downage may have had an unexpected side effect
edogaa	Tims connection failing didn't help
edogaa	yeah
schreiberstein	well, couldn't you temporaily host the files on the main server?
Piki	yeah, if you don't mind painfully slow connections
edogaa	lol..damn you bandwidth!!!!
Piki	tim's connection is much slower than a mirror, so having him host it and everybody trying to go through that isn't really practical
schreiberstein	:-(
schreiberstein	which friday do you mean? yesterday or next friday?
Piki	yesterday
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Piki	if it wasn't for tim's ISP cutting cables, it would've probably been thursday
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schreiberstein	a VDSL50 connection should be a human right! :-(
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* Strangelv would rather not admit how long it was before he was able to get something faster than dialup
rzs19	hello. oha, found something interessting: https://github.com/Perberos/Mate-Desktop-Environment#readme
rzs19	we are not the only "nostalgic" users out there
edogaa	schreiberstein: which mailing list did you write this too D:
schreiberstein	rzs19:  yep. mate is quite good. i tried out on arch linux. well... didn't worked out of the box, but after i figuered some things out, it was great
schreiberstein	edogaa:  didn't wrote it to a mailinglist yet. but i would have written this to trinity-users@...
edogaa	okay lol
* Strangelv isn't a nostalgic user. He's a reactionary user.
* edogaa wonders why Strangelv only seems to speak with actions
Strangelv	sometimes it requires less mental energy
schreiberstein	lol
edogaa	>_> lol
* Piki isn't a nostalgic user either, he prefers to be an "everything just works user". kde3 just works :-)
Strangelv	"There's a new paradigm that replaces what we were given at the Mother of All Demos.  It's the 'verything is a telephone' paradigm
schreiberstein	see ya tomorrow guys!
* schreiberstein is going to a birthday party
Strangelv	"Have fun
Strangelv	The fact that we're here implies that this change does not meet with our approval
* schreiberstein hopes, that the repos will be online tomorrow
schreiberstein	Strangelv:  thanks!
schreiberstein	bye!
Strangelv	Note for next time,-- haveit released before announcing it and changing all the directions...
schreiberstein	Strangelv:  full ack!
Piki	ONE LAST TIME: the files were expected to have already been there, and probably would be if it weren't for tim's servers
schreiberstein	Piki:  Then delete the guide from trinity'S site
Piki	schreiberstein, i can't
Strangelv	"That might be a better topic right now than saying that it's out.  is Tim the only one with access to the topic?
Piki	i'm not a web master
Piki	just relaying info already given to me by tim, who expected the mirrors to have the files yesterday, and who is currently not here to see what the problem is
schreiberstein	nevermind... good bye!
Strangelv	"yeah, go
Strangelv	"TAYL
schreiberstein	have a nice day
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Piki	i may as well go too, since nobody seems to know how to "read" and i don't have any patience for those kinds of people
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* Strangelv wonders what it is hes' supposed t have read aside from being able to better cope with the hopeless deluge in his email inbox. The TDE lists aren't teh onyl ones' he's incapa'ble of keeping up with anymore
Strangelv	"Hello
l0ner	hi guys!
edogaa	o_o
edogaa	poor Piki lol
rzs19	has any one a nice name for my bar/docker? i'am so uninspired...
Strangelv	bar/docker?
* Strangelv used to name his MS Windows partitions after work project code names; does that count?
rzs19	aehm... a superkaramba widget.
rzs19	soemthing like kxdocker, but for superkaramba.
l0ner	what it does?
* Strangelv hastily loks up superkaramba
l0ner	superkaramba: nice but resource consuming applets for kde
l0ner	something like plasma now...
rzs19	hmm it does...steals your creditcard and looks like a docker/bar
l0ner	lol
l0ner	karadock?
Strangelv	So it's an applet you're needinga  name for...
l0ner	kara from karamba and dock for.... uh... dock
Strangelv	Could you descireb it?  appearance? uses
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* l0ner_away is away: dinnertime!
* Strangelv will bb
Strangelv	BTW, work project code names at my small company are taken from names of rocket,s missiles, and aerospace items
rzs19	well its a nice looking bar, which can have themes and plugins, like weather, launcher, or something like the dock in macos. its a bar whic hcan have plugins, so you can put in what you want...
rzs19	and it makes evilthings with your creditcard-data :)
rzs19	and yeah its in python so maybe it needs a little bit more ram than toher things... but not soo much...and...you don't need to care about it. it has a autodetecd methof, to check if yo have to less ram. if its too less, it will steal money form other users and pay you new ram, more ram - so you dont need to care abot too less ram in your system
* Strangelv is now officially confused
rzs19	atm it needs 7 mb of ram... its just playing around with superkaramba and trying to makesomething use..fu..ful...less...
Strangelv	one of my biggest continuing nits with Kicker is that in terms of large icons like start, showing the dasktop, showing the trash can, there's only one dimension, and the thicker you make the bar the more room they eat up
Strangelv	"Wouldi t be possib0le to stuff them into a box with superkaramba so that they can be arranged in two dimensions and kept dow no a reasnable size iven if teh bar is >100px thick?
rzs19	maybe we need to write an applete for kicker to do this?
Strangelv	"Iave always wished for alterantives to kicker altogether, although it's gotten better over the years
Strangelv	"I guess what I'm wendering is if a container culd be created that these things could be plaecd into.  ...alternatively, add the ability to arrange them in moer than one dimension in Kicker itself
Strangelv	"There's also at least one alternative to kicker, but it's not a high priority and may not be in the current gorup of packages.  I forlgoht who was working on it.  It was created by SuSe
rzs19	maybe we could make awish list for things todo?
rzs19	maybe there is somewhere such a list, don't know...
rzs19	buts sounds like a usefull idea :)
Strangelv	"I believ ethe SOP is to file a wish item with bugzilla, but I don't believ I've ever gottn around to it.  Working on mascot/logo proposals is what I'm suppsed to be doing for TDE, but have been to busy with other things.  ...then i decided to sign up for National Novel Writing Month because I wasn't overtaxing myself enough, obviously. I'm waaay behind on reaching the target of 50,000 words
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* l0ner is back.
l0ner	!seen MutantTurkey
tbottu	l0ner: MutantTurkey was last seen in #trinity-desktop 1 day, 12 hours, 13 minutes, and 50 seconds ago: <MutantTurkey> :) if you see tim let him know
l0ner	!seen kb9vqf
tbottu	l0ner: kb9vqf was last seen in #trinity-desktop 3 days, 12 hours, 33 minutes, and 30 seconds ago: <kb9vqf> gn
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* Strangelv hopes Tim is okay
l0ner	why?
Strangelv	"This isn't the best 84 hours for him to be missing, and i'm sure he would know that moer than anyone
l0ner	do we know why he is missing?
l0ner	ie, not here?
Strangelv	"Missing from here, anyway
l0ner	i actually wanted to ask him something but I don't remember what tho...
Strangelv	MAybe I've just had too many things to woryr about lately that it's becoming something I jump to too radily
l0ner	ok'
l0ner	oh, I remembered what I waned to ask about
Strangelv	sorry abut my typing.  I've been awake too long
l0ner	normal
l0ner	and I'm too sick to think straight
Strangelv	oof.  That could be better (by def. admittedly)
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l0ner	right now I've been staring into my screen for something like 5 mins and I don't remember anymore what I was doing nor what I wanted to do...
Strangelv	brain fog?
l0ner	yep
l0ner	caused by a clod
l0ner	*cold
Strangelv	colds are fortunately temporary
l0ner	which I caught 2 days ago... and it don't want to go away
rzs19	dementia?
l0ner	fortunately
l0ner	tzs19: I hope not... but who knows :P
rzs19	maybe if you are married for 20 years, iit could be a benefit? everyday is like the first date...
samelian	Xu_R: here?
l0ner	rzs19: i would be nice I think, but actually it's impossible since I'm 21 right now
rzs19	well... hmm.. thats bad?
l0ner	no, not at all
rzs19	oha you are from bella italia?
l0ner	Yeah, that's where I live right now
rzs19	so you know Carlo Pedersoli and have maybe used fox desktop :)
* Strangelv only now realised that he's days away from the 20th anniversary of his quitting caffeine cold turkey
l0ner	nah, never heard of both
rzs19	the first one is alos known as bud spencer and the second was a great italian kde distribution
* l0ner looking up fox desktop
l0ner	didn't know
rzs19	now you know it :)
l0ner	yep, and will look up more info later
l0ner	right now I'm struggling to compile trinity-qt3 on clean arch install
l0ner	argh! I give up... anyone here who could provide help?
* Strangelv is regrettably useless here
l0ner	ok, that's strange... on cable power my laptop consumes 9W, on battery power it consumes 25W... why?
l0ner	ok, I'll wait till someone expert with qt3 will show up...
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Aquarius	hello everyone
Strangelv	Hello
rzs19	hell :D
rzs19	hello*
Aquarius	question: why can i not install latest Trinity desktop?
Aquarius	sources are broken or what?
Xu_R	samelian: yea, but heading out soon
* Strangelv should have a copy and paste answer but doesn't. HE's also been awake too long to explain it well
samelian	Xu_R: i'm a bit outdated, how can I get patched qt3 source?
Strangelv	possibyl inaccurate short version: the announcement was premature
Xu_R	hehe, so am I. it should be on the mirrors
Aquarius	is that about KDE 3.5.13?
Xu_R	samelian: mirrors.its.uidaho.edu
samelian	thx
Aquarius	Jesus people.. i dunno who's talking to whom. Why don't you grant me such dignity and tell me what the hell is wrong?
Strangelv	Are you just trying to get up and running with TDE, or are you tyring to upgraed a 3.5.12 installation?
Aquarius	yep, i've reinstalled everything.... had to move to another hdd
Aquarius	so now i'm on gnome only.
Strangelv	Which distro, not that I can help with many
Aquarius	so no upgrade, just clean installation.
Aquarius	Debian 6
Aquarius	it says it cannot read the sources...
Strangelv	If you can find the directions for 3.5.12, try those.  Unfortunately, they're no longer up and I don't know wheer to find them
Aquarius	damn... you mean to tell me that i can' t install KDE 3.5.13 and instead i'd rather get 3.5.12 and yet they're hard to be found?!
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* l0ner_away is away: Gone away for now
Aquarius	just why did i delete it....
Aquarius	anyways.... shall i wait till you guys are done with 3.5.13/
Aquarius	?
Aquarius	i can use gnome for a while..
Strangelv	"That might be the easier solution.  Things are in flux and the situation could be fixed any hour now
Aquarius	fine. I'll be using gnome for a while.
Aquarius	thanks for letting know
Strangelv	Sorry for teh inconvenience
rzs19	why dont use 3.5.12 ?
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rzs19	and than upgrade to 3.5.13 ?
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Strangelv	rzs19: what repository and pacage name?
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Strangelv	package name(s)
rzs19	or is the 3.5.12 repo alos broken?
Strangelv	I don't believ it's broken, but there ore no longer directions for using it
rzs19	uno momento...
Strangelv	"so if you don't remember where to look or what packages to use...
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Aquarius	rzs19, besides, i've been looking forward to 3.5.13, they got (allegedly) that Konqueror/flash thing fixed
Aquarius	without it it's like tea without sugar
rzs19	so you have installed 3.5.12 but your waiting for 3.5.13 ?
Aquarius	i did install 3.5.12, but i just re-installed everything due to some reasons and was hoping i'd just install latest thing at once... bummer.
Aquarius	so now i'm on gnome.
rzs19	i don't like flash...
Aquarius	me neither, but you do like watching youtube videos, don't ya?
rzs19	wait!
rzs19	html5!
* Strangelv is still running Meerkat due to his failed attempt on another macrhien to upgrade and still have TDE
rzs19	http://www.youtube.com/html5
Aquarius	Strangelv, hey... i remember you.. you're that guy who doesn't sleep much
* Strangelv seldomly uses Konquerer for HTML, and it's almost always to view local HTML files
Strangelv	"Actually I sleep a lot, but my cercadian isn't 24 hour compliant.  Right now is about bedtime
rzs19	but i think the khtml in konqueror is atm to old
KingSphinx	I'm running 3.5.13 thanks to the idea of using the nightly repos to get it... it runs, but it's absolutely broken in some areas.
Strangelv	Yes.  Webkit is the successor to KHTML
Aquarius	pha...
Aquarius	KingSphinx, what's the point then? :)
rzs19	just use... iceweasel/firefox, or chrome, or soemthing else :D
Aquarius	i did. they act funny.
rzs19	or port rekonq back to qt3 :P
Strangelv	That's a problem
KingSphinx	For example, if I hilight Settings or System in KMenu, the whole Kicker crashes.
* Strangelv is too asleep to troubleshoot
Aquarius	hey.. how about those deep buttons thing? :)
KingSphinx	All I can say is that I really hope the "real" 3.5.13 is less crash-prone than this
rzs19	KingSphinx: don't make me fear from 3.5.13 :/
Strangelv	rzs19 might try writing an app for that. 8)
Aquarius	guys.. just take your time... do it long enough but good.
KingSphinx	rzs19: I'm sure the final product will be better, it's kinda my fault for installing nightlies.
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KingSphinx	Until final binaries are pushed out, I guess I'll just stick with *gasp* Unity...
* Strangelv has been staying with Meerkat, even though he went with Meerkat instead of the LTS so that he could keep up and not fall behind like he did with Jaunty...
Aquarius	KingSphinx, nah.. anything by Unity
Aquarius	KingSphinx, xfce better
KingSphinx	I tried Xfce, and while it's certainly nice and light, its sound architecture leaves a lot to be desired. Sort of like Trinity in that regard, actually. :P
KingSphinx	Not to knock Trinity, of course, I'm just saying that it's a bit of a pain to configure it to use USB headphones.
Aquarius	listen.. sound prob is overall linux prob. It's never ok.
Aquarius	i've realized that already.
rzs19	so, now i go shopping,cu later :D need to buy..food...
KingSphinx	Matter of fact, I have no idea how to get Trinity to fully work sound-wise through my USB headset. I can hear stuff, yes, but I'm unable to change the volume.
Aquarius	don't bother :)
Aquarius	Linux is for those people who are tired of comfort and want some headache. There you go ;)
Aquarius	i'm proud to be one of them.
Aquarius	if you want to get everything to work - just use Windows. Yeah, go and steal it, or buy it, whatever... but you'll have no probs dude. ;)
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* l0ner is back.
KingSphinx	Don't get me wrong, it's fun fixing stuff, but this sound thing's got me baffled. >_>;
Aquarius	here.... in this THING...... everything gets me baffled :)
Aquarius	but for some reason i keep using it the way i can... some weird kind of obsession.
KingSphinx	It's literally the one thing I can safely say KDE4 beats Trinity in, because I can easily configure 4 to use my headset as the default sound device. Trinity, not so much, though I think the way Trinity and KDE4 use PulseAudio is way, way different...
Aquarius	PulseAudio is one piece of crap in making.
Aquarius	it works EVERYWHERE differently
Aquarius	sometimes less or more good...
l0ner	well nor trinity nor kde4 use pulse as it should be used
Aquarius	how do you know how it should be used? :)
l0ner	well... pulse is a audiomixer
Aquarius	has it ever worked they way intended ANYWHERE at all? :)
Aquarius	the*
l0ner	kde4 needs its own audiomixer
l0ner	trinity has it's own audiomixer
l0ner	yes
l0ner	i warked for me on ubunut
l0ner	when i was still using ubuntu
l0ner	i just needed to remove alsamixer to prevent it form stealing access to alsa from pulse
l0ner	in pracitce it should be or pluse or alsamixer or any other sound mixer you want
Aquarius	well, Ubuntu is the only linux based OS for today that represents something. And even Ubuntu is pretty much experimental.
l0ner	yes...
Aquarius	i do really really regret that i deleted Trinity 3.5.12.. damn...
Aquarius	if only i knew...
Aquarius	this gnome crap is killing me...
l0ner	and it's sad, since at times of 7.10, 8.04 ubuntu was pretty stable
l0ner	right now with it's ambition to become osx-like it's crap
Aquarius	it was stable for the hardware of its own time.
Aquarius	but they don't stand still, they keep moving.. that's the prob...
l0ner	yes
Aquarius	so ubuntu makers always have to keep up-to-date
l0ner	it wouldnt be a problem if they didn't want to become something they can't be
l0ner	I installed ubuntu something like 4 months ago
Aquarius	and yet Debian is more humble... it has old kernel, though drivers are being updated but just about as much to get your system to work, to install it somehow and make it work. Also SOMEHOW.
KingSphinx	My first Ubuntu was 9.04, so I'm sort of used to it acting like crap sometimes.
edogaa	my first ubuntu was 11.10
l0ner	i couldnt stand how user un-friendly it was... i couldn't do anything I wanted to do
Aquarius	i dunno, Debian is crap on one hand. but for some reason i do love it.
edogaa	>_> my first linux was pclinuxos, debian 5 and archlinux.
l0ner	my first ubuntu was 6.04
edogaa	the first 2 through a livecd
l0ner	and my first linux was slack 10.1
KingSphinx	My Debian 5.0.9 live CD doesn't work with my LCD monitor.
edogaa	hmm what year?
Aquarius	my first linux was Mandrake
Aquarius	and Linux XP... both tryouts
edogaa	I'll assume old, so l0ner OLD TIMER D:
l0ner	yep... somehow :P
edogaa	Lol, LInux XP... XD
Aquarius	yeah.. i didn't even install it actually.. i just tried ;)
l0ner	i remember having 6 cd's with apps sources and compiling them manually on slack
edogaa	God, Linux XP looks terrible, not because it looks like windows xp either
Aquarius	by the way, Mandriva still lives, but nobody's using it... at least i dunno any people that have it.
l0ner	the biggest problem with all linuxes is that they want to reassemble something that they are not.
edogaa	Mmmm
l0ner	like ubuntu gives me the feeling that it wants to become osx
Aquarius	the biggest problem is that they're all experimental...
l0ner	yes
edogaa	I thought the same with unity :/
edogaa	There needs to be a point were they are 'stable' more or less lol
Aquarius	yeah. More or less.
l0ner	when i saw unity control panel i was like wtf? is this unity os is to osx
l0ner	i like how things work for debian
edogaa	Eh, I tried unity it has some good things
edogaa	but it's pretty shitty mostly :/
edogaa	for me anyways,
l0ner	there is stable wersion and experimental one
l0ner	i just couldn't use unity... or ubuntu at all. on every step it tried to undo my customizations to system
Aquarius	Debian is crap, but pretty much stable as it is.
Aquarius	that's why i love it and using it right now)
Aquarius	it just lacks some things that you must take care of yourself. that makes it a big f...ng pain in the ass.
edogaa	I'm just using fedora because i don't like debian :/
l0ner	i like the verbose boot, so i tried to uninstall tu usplash, and what ubuntu says to me: "no you can't uninstall it"
Aquarius	edogaa, some people have troubles dealing with Debian, but it's not that bad. You just don't have to ask too much from it :)
l0ner	I use arch because I like to configure my system to act how I want it to act
edogaa	i like having new software :|
l0ner	till now i was using gentoo... but lately gentoo becomes more and more strange
edogaa	:/ Eh, l0ner that and having bleeding edge software I liked but then I noticed the final result was what most linux distros do in the end anyways :/
l0ner	i don't really need bleeding edge, I want from apps I use to be useful and stable
Aquarius	anyone heard anything from Knoppix lately?
l0ner	and allow me to be productive
edogaa	arch is more bleeding edge than fedora lol o.O
Aquarius	it's not arch.. it's arse
l0ner	didn't know
Aquarius	ArseLinux
edogaa	At least that's what I Noticed with KDE, and what I liked about arch in 3-4 days the newest release of kde is usually available.
l0ner	well... i didn't really care for kde or gnome
KingSphinx	l0ner: Debian Stable?
l0ner	so I didn't notice
edogaa	o_O Not sure about all the other software. Hell, Arch even defaults to Python3 over python2. lol
l0ner	KingSphinx: tried... but it just didn't fit me
edogaa	So it's more like latest 'stable' software.
l0ner	dunno why
Aquarius	i tried installing ArseLinux once
Aquarius	ended up with a headache.
Aquarius	and pain in the arse too
edogaa	eh, installation is easy.
edogaa	Except when you get a problem
edogaa	in which case you get an anneyriusm.
Aquarius	not really. Also, having CRT monitor it gives you hard times looking in monitor...
Aquarius	every damn linux usually adjusts it to to maximum orgasmic resolution possible
Aquarius	if monitor is unknown or no video drivers
Aquarius	and no, i couldn't change it while not being in any desktop environment
l0ner	vga= parameter to boot sequence?
Aquarius	dunno.
l0ner	damn... where is Tim when he's needed!?
rzs19	where is amanda?
Aquarius	where's... TDE 3.5.13?...
l0ner	everyone is waithing for somenoe
l0ner	or something
Aquarius	:)
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* l0ner_away is away: somewhere else...
l0ner_away	!help
tbottu	l0ner_away: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
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rzs19	The food tastes poisoned...
rzs19	what a crap, 15? -.-
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Aquarius	evening folks
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Firefishe	I'm running ubuntu oneiric 11.10.  I've added all the trinity repositories, updated, but can
KingSphinx	Still waiting for the mirrors >_>; nightlies aren't such a great idea when you want a usable system...
Firefishe	I'm running ubuntu oneiric 11.10.  I've added all the trinity repositories, updated, but can't find the kubuntu-default-settings-trinity or kubuntu-desktop-trinity packages (or meta, whatever they are).  I have some trinity packages in synaptic, but not everything seems there.
Firefishe	KingSphinx: Are you saying that the mirrors aren't complete yet for oneiric?
KingSphinx	The Trinity mirrors have had difficulty building binaries because of several mishaps, they should be built within the next few days.
Aquarius	you still talking about that?? Good gracious :)
KingSphinx	At least I got sound coming through my USB headset :P now if I can get the volume on it to work, everything would be hunky-dory.
Firefishe	I'm just following the instructions on the page for oneiric.
Firefishe	I've added the repositories, updated, etc.
Firefishe	KingSphinx: So a few more days, eh?
KingSphinx	Firefishe: Unfortunately, yes. The last-minute addition of RHEL/Fedora repos isn't helping matters.
KingSphinx	Also, I can't be the only one for whom Kopete isn't working properly.
Firefishe	KingSphinx:  I see
Firefishe	KingSphinx: Well, I'll just keep my eyes peeled and  do my updates.  I'm sure your crew will get it together.
Firefishe	I appreciate the efforts to bring kde 3 back to the masses :)
KingSphinx	Only reason I'm running Trinity is because the nighly repositories offer a version close to the final product. Wouldn't recommend it though if you want a stable system. And BTW, I'm not technically part of this project, though I do try to help where I can.
Firefishe	KingSphinx:  We all help out where we can.  I appreciate the information.  I'll just wait a month, then the problems should be ironed out.
Firefishe	Are the nightly builds via svn or git?
Aquarius	my sound works now perfectly
Aquarius	with only Alsa
KingSphinx	Binaries, I think. http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Developers/NightlyBuilds
Aquarius	and what i did.. i just reinstalled Debian.. maybe i went through settings differently this time, i dunno.. but it's just fine.
KingSphinx	I'm thinking of trying Debian, but it looks like it'd be a bit more of a pain to get wireless set up, especially since I don't have an ethernet connection here.
Aquarius	Debian is good when you're good to it :)
Aquarius	but it's not intended to satisfy the needs of a generic consumer
KingSphinx	If I had a working ethernet connection where I am, I'd install Debian in a heartbeat.
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edogaa	Guys, I hve the bestest best idea that will make KDE3 even more maintainable and stable than evar D:
edogaa	lets move everything...to whitespaces! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_%28programming_language%29
edogaa	:D
rzs19	damn great idea! looks so readable :D
edogaa	XD Yes.
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rzs19	my superkaramba dock begins slowly to be usable...
drakuwa	does anyone know when are the RPM packets going to be available?
edogaa	in the year 2500
edogaa	but in all seriousness, I don't know and it doesn't look like many people here do either. :/ There was an issue on the 2nd were Tims connection got screwed up so not many of the mirrors got everything they needed.
rzs19	i would be happy if the deb packages would be aviable :)
edogaa	It was expected to be up at least AT SOONEST around friday...but it looks like it's going to take longer :/
edogaa	also, thanks to slashdot the main website went down around the same day temporarily XD
rzs19	maybe kde4-ninjas have killed the maintainer? :/
rzs19	conspiracy theory...
edogaa	OMGOMGOMGOMG, maybe Aaron Seigo was acting so nice to put everyones guard down D:
edogaa	He is truly a magnificent bastard!
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rzs19	i was suprised where martin gräßlin got all those time for the posts about trinity.
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rzs19	i think he has a time machine... and wrote that all i nthe future, to come back and post it in the past!
rzs19	we needa DeLorean too!
Space_Man	Trinity needs a release team
rzs19	no, we need a DeLorean!
rzs19	we could bring aut kde 3.6 before 3.5.9, that would be funny :D
rzs19	ähm tde*
Space_Man	maybe fork trinity!
edogaa	so fork a fork :| hurrah
rzs19	maybe we should fork the word fork to make a double fork and we would be demons.. that would be evil...
rzs19	why we should fork trinity? The work has just began.. they need some time to get a working team.
rzs19	everything needs some time to start up.
rzs19	maybe there are soem rocks on the way, or holy mountains. but i'am sure, they go tnt :)
gryc	Trinity's code is mostly C++, right?
Space_Man	probably
gryc	Okay, that's what I thought
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coreyfro	Hey all, followed instructions from http://www.trinitydesktop.org/installation.php but kubuntu-default-settings-trinity kubuntu-desktop-trinity aren't found.  Can't find them when I snoop around either.  Is this build available?
coreyfro	I have kubuntu 11.10 amd64, fresh
rzs19	it seems that the mirrors are not ready atm? just wait...
coreyfro	Is there a particular mirror that I could specify? I jumped to 11.10 the second I read trinity was out for it and thus, squished my perfectly functional 3.5.12 install
edogaa	lol
coreyfro	4.7 is killing me...it just...ugh...fails...
edogaa	You can try and play around in 4.7 and see the good things about it, then burn it with fire and jump to kde3
Aquarius	coreyfro, same happened here.
Aquarius	but i didn't kill my desktop.. just wanted to re-install..
Aquarius	thought i'd install latest thing at once... bummer
edogaa	LOL, I did the same when I saw it was available in fedora xD
coreyfro	I have!  I even skinned it almost like how I skin KDE 3.5... http://www.flickr.com/photos/82885810@N00/6316293289/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/82885810@N00/6316123769/ but the beauty isn't even skin deep.  I can't lipstick this pig!
coreyfro	Trinity, much love.  You do the OSS community much by saying, "You know, fork this!"
Space_Man	sadly the mirrors are lagging
Space_Man	if you really need 3.5.13 you could try the recent nighly upload
Space_Man	it is the same as 3.5.13
coreyfro	Are they binaries or sources?
Space_Man	binaries
edogaa	O_O
edogaa	WHERE CAN I GET THESE D:
Space_Man	I tried using them earlier but something went wrong
edogaa	are they rpm format D:
Space_Man	no *.deb
edogaa	only :|
coreyfro	Alright!  What could POSSIBLY go wrong
edogaa	Everything goes unstable
Space_Man	sadly deb's for debian squeeze and several ubuntu's
edogaa	sigh
edogaa	I'm going offline
Space_Man	download the source and compile
edogaa	I need to stop being on here since it's ust distracting me from work xD
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coreyfro	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Developers/NightlyBuilds
gryc	I installed from nightly an hour or so, have yet to try to log into it though
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coreyfro	I just killed EVERY bandwidth sucking service on my network to make sure that I squeeze every bit I can through my connection so I can get this nano seconds faster
coreyfro	IRC isn't bandwidth sucking... it's time sucking
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coreyfro	Once I get this working, I'll bust out my beagleboard and try the armel version
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Z_God	hey Aquarius
Aquarius	hey Z_God... too late man, i'm off to bed..
Z_God	I turned on this button thing for kicker for a few days now
Z_God	but I'm not sure yet if I like it ;)
Aquarius	ah...
Aquarius	really?.. could you make a screenshot of that?
Z_God	I did & put it here at some point
KingSphinx	Kicker crashes if I highlight Setting or System in KMenu for some odd reason.
Z_God	like me fetch the url
Aquarius	ok!
Z_God	https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-TnLKfc3YvRc/Tq_qh63_bAI/AAAAAAAAAfQ/q2I6E4UHIiQ/s912/drawbuttons.png
Z_God	maybe it looks better with other themes though
Aquarius	erm...
Aquarius	what exactly did you do there?
Aquarius	you made the buttons visible? :)
Z_God	I turned on the option we talked about
Aquarius	well... actually i could do that too, and i've been using it only this way.
Aquarius	BUT...
Aquarius	the point was not the button shape as such.... but the pushing thing... it's not really pushed, it's just darkened a bit...
KingSphinx	http://pastebin.com/fB2Gtd9L Would this be of any help? I got this by invoking Kicker through Konsole, then reproducing the crash.
Aquarius	and not enough darkened even.
Aquarius	and hey.. i'm out of KDE now...
Aquarius	reinstalled everything..
Aquarius	it's better now, sound is alright...
Z_God	Aquarius: yes, I get what you mean
Aquarius	but.. i can't get trinity due to reasons above mentioned.
Z_God	KingSphinx: there's not much info, but better add it to the bug
Z_God	if there's no bug yet, you should create one
Aquarius	anyways man... i talk to you tomorrow.. tired now... see y
Aquarius	night
Z_God	Aquarius: night!
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rzs19	gn8 :)
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hakova	anybody available for a quick question on fedora 15 installation?
KingSphinx	If it's involving missing packages, the mirrors aren't quite fully available yet due to a few mishaps (fiber cable being cut, temporary outage due to Slashdot, last-minute addition of RHEL/Fedora repositories).
hakova	When I issue the command "yum install trinity-desktop" as root I get an error message indicating /etc/yum.repos.d/index.html?url=f15.repo file did not contain any section headers?
KingSphinx	Yep, repo issues. I'm still waiting for the official binaries for Ubuntu to be built. (Former Fedora user here, ironically enough, hopped to Ubuntu *because* of Trinity... now that it's on Fedora, I feel kinda silly)
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Strangelv	"Would it make you feel better that I was unable to cross the RPM/DEB divide after Libranet tragicalyl ended?  I had a rather long in the tooth kernel by the time I found Kubuntu 5.04...
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MutantTurkey	o/
KingSphinx	Make that the third time in two days I've reinstalled Ubuntu :/ nightlies aren't such a great idea when everything keeps crashing...
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KingSphinx	Hopefully the final release of 3.5.13 is more stable than the final nightly, because Kicker crashed every time I wanted to go to Settings or System in KMenu.
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KingSphinx	http://pastebin.com/fB2Gtd9L Here's what I got after starting Kicker from terminal, then recreating the crash.
MutantTurkey	they are bit for bit identical.
MutantTurkey	afaik
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: file a report?
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: Xu_R: Z_God: Strangelv: anyone else: We are having a meeting Nov 15th in the evening. can you guys make it
MutantTurkey	?
Xu_R	I can
Xu_R	hm.
Xu_R	Do you think samelian can make it?
Xu_R	he was on yesterday...
MutantTurkey	I havent seen him in a LONG time
MutantTurkey	please ask him and spread the word!
MutantTurkey	I would like to have good turnouts
MutantTurkey	also Xu_R can you maybe (i know your busy) come up with some meeting topic outline?
MutantTurkey	http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/15
MutantTurkey	thats what I have so far.
Xu_R	sure
MutantTurkey	hopefully you can run the meeting ( i dont know about the whole bot thingers)
MutantTurkey	I want all packagers to be there.
Xu_R	kk
MutantTurkey	me you tim and samelian are also mandatory :P
Xu_R	:P
MutantTurkey	:)
MutantTurkey	I want a real turnout for this meeting
MutantTurkey	tomorrow I will make a new announcment about it.
MutantTurkey	then again after that
MutantTurkey	and then the day of :P
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: what did you usually do to coordinate timing?
MutantTurkey	earlier the better?
Xu_R	earlier, better
Xu_R	and then day before
MutantTurkey	dont want our russian counterparts missing out.
Xu_R	xD
MutantTurkey	:)
MutantTurkey	getting ready to upload arch release packates
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Strangelv	"What nime on the 15th?
Strangelv	Or time?
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: what timezone are you?
MutantTurkey	I  have yet to pick a time.
Strangelv	"Central Daylight Time
MutantTurkey	most likely afternoon (between lunch and dinner) EST
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: you were quite interested in artwork a few months back yes?
Strangelv	"Sounds good.  I've been distracted and am not sure where to upload the wallpapers I made
MutantTurkey	we are definitely looking for some new stuff for kdeartwork
MutantTurkey	if you want to lead the charge on that, you are welcome to.
Strangelv	"Specifications arle always welcome
Strangelv	"I'm even more sidetracked than normal, though
MutantTurkey	:)
MutantTurkey	well at the meeting (if you can come) I will mention artwork
MutantTurkey	and you can say something to everyone if you wish
* Strangelv wonders if he can find his notes for two mascot concepts he came up witha few months ago and has yet to make in Inkscape. He might settle for scanning them if he can find his sketches
KingSphinx	Mascots for TDE?
Strangelv	nod
Strangelv	Branding
Strangelv	Right now we have a KDE-derived logo.  I've been wanting to develop a successor
MutantTurkey	the one I enjoyed.
MutantTurkey	the idea at least
MutantTurkey	Inkscape is cool, hard for me to use :/
Strangelv	The robot was rather heavily panned.  Most people either loved or hated it.  Too many in the latter column.  I've got a new concept that might be flexible in every way that worked with the robot, though
MutantTurkey	okay cool!
Strangelv	"I had an on-ramp to learning inkscape
Strangelv	"First I learned the bezier curve in GIMP
MutantTurkey	well please present it at the meeting
MutantTurkey	I need to crash - got a Gig at 9am ( church praise band :P)
MutantTurkey	but hopefully we can get the ball rolling on this mascot idea and artwork
MutantTurkey	night all.
Strangelv	"Then I found Xara for Linux and quickly learned and used it to make a few things -- only to discover that I had de facto vendor lock-in with a proprietary format and exports to standard formats that are all broken
Strangelv	"later
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gryc	Now that I'm on trinity proper, I realize exactly how bad gnome has become
KingSphinx	Wait, how? 3.5.12 or 3.5.13?
gryc	Whatever's nightly, probably 3.5.12
KingSphinx	That's 3.5.13, I'm still waiting for the official binaries to come out because Nightly's too unstable for me.
gryc	me too, but I upgraded to the latest ubuntu yesterday and they made gnome unusable, so I'm willing to put up with some unstability :p
KingSphinx	Does Kicker crash a lot for you? Mine did whenever I highlighted Settings or System in KMenu.
gryc	haha yep
KingSphinx	Same bug for you?
gryc	totally
gryc	I'm betting a corrupt .desktop file somewhere maybe
KingSphinx	Right down to highlighting those items in KMenu? Wow...
gryc	yeah, one kills it but it restarts automatically, the other kills it completely
gryc	looks like a corrupt image for System
gryc	(or a bug in art_render_gradient.c)
KingSphinx	You invoking it from Konsole?
gryc	yep
gryc	KDE was always good about being pretty helpful when it crashed
KingSphinx	Haha, you're doing the same thing I did to get some semblance of a bugtrace.
gryc	hm
gryc	there might be something wrong with the svg its trying to render...if this wasn't before they moved to svgs
gryc	like the gradients are malformed
gryc	hence it complaining about an assertion failling, like a stop is too small or too big
KingSphinx	For some reason I wouldn't think Debian would be affected by this, because if I recall, KMenu in Debian didn't have icons for some reason.
KingSphinx	(I also liked the layout in Debian's KMenu more, but that's another story)
gryc	well I would imagine that's just a setting
Strangelv	"Gnome 3 seems to be as popular with at least some Glome 2 users as KDE 4 is here
Strangelv	"The Mother of All Demos' paradigm is being replaced by an 'everything is a telephone' paradigm.  Consider me a reactionary.
Strangelv	"I want an alternative
KingSphinx	I'm kind of put off by how every DE nowadays seems to be heading in a touchscreen/tablet interface.
gryc	yeah.
Strangelv	:: hoists a flag with 1967 replacing a key portion of the flag.  or was the mouse/cursor system unveiling in 1968?
Strangelv	"Certianly took long enough to get to market in a usable product
gryc	KingSphinx: that crash is a known bug: http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=554
tbottu	04Bug 554: normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, art_render_gradient.c makes kicker and konqueror crash
gryc	With a little luck it'll be in 3.5.14
KingSphinx	What, the fix?
gryc	Yes
gryc	There's a patch attached to that bug, so chances are good it'll get fixed :P
* Strangelv thinks, 3.5.13.1?
Strangelv	"Then again, the two toughes problems have both been cracked
Strangelv	The next releas/le might not be as long in coming as 3.5.13 at all
KingSphinx	Toughest problems?
Strangelv	"Getting rid of Automake and implemetnig the Qt wraypper
KingSphinx	Ah
Strangelv	"Automake si the #1 reason there weren't any packafes for Natty
Strangelv	...basically teh only reason
Strangelv	Automake's developers like to break everything during incrimental releases it seems
KingSphinx	Hence why TDE was ported to CMake?
* Strangelv nods
gryc	KingSphinx: luckily, that bug is in a little library, so theoretically you could just install the package for that from nightly when it gets merged in and stuff will quit crashing
Strangelv	"Soundhs like something to be quietly fixed in hteh bockground
gryc	Yep
gryc	if I were the overlord, I would say it was a bugfix and that it can go into the release :p
Strangelv	That might still be doable.  The problem is something has distracted the overlord
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theali	morning
theali	am I missing something or there is no package "kde-trinity" in trinitis debian (squeeze) repo?
theali	or maybe installation instructions for squeeze is different than for lenny? (apt-get install desktop-base-trinity kde-trinity)
theali	I found kde-trinity in lenny. Bug or feature? ;]
Space_Man	hi theali
Space_Man	there is a delay updating the mirrors
Space_Man	one day all the packages will be available
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theali	yhym, strange ;p
Space_Man	an explaining why the update has been delayed http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::3292
theali	ok, thanks
Space_Man	if you really want to use 3.5.13 today you could use the nighlie builds - they are the same as 3.5.13
Space_Man	deb http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-nightly-builds/debian squeeze main
theali	will try ;]
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rzs19	hello :)
Strangelv	"Hello
rzs19	everything fine?
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Aquarius	heya
rzs19	good morning :)
Aquarius	hello
Aquarius	well here it's like afternoon
rzs19	ola
Aquarius	but for me morning alright..
rzs19	here too: 13:54 ;-)
rzs19	but its relativ...
Aquarius	yeah.
Aquarius	where are you from?
rzs19	austria, but atm in germany and you?
Aquarius	Moldova
rzs19	and noo, i have no big plans like world domination
Aquarius	:)
rzs19	*google for moldova*
Aquarius	yeah... do it
Aquarius	brb
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sheldonl	hello?
rzs19	hello
schreiberstein	sheldonl:  hi
sheldonl	I have a qyuestion about installing trinity-desktop on ubuntu natt
sheldonl	err natty.
schreiberstein	yep?
sheldonl	I followed the instructions on the installation page, added the repositories, key, etc.
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rzs19	Hello Z_God
Z_God	rzs19: hi
sheldonl	but when I do sudo apt-get install kubuntu-default-settings-trinity kubuntu-desktop-trinity
sheldonl	the packages are not found
sheldonl	Reading state information... Done
sheldonl	E: Unable to locate package kubuntu-default-settings-trinity
sheldonl	E: Unable to locate package kubuntu-desktop-trinity
rzs19	atm it seems that there are some problems with the mirrors - syncing problems.
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sheldonl	even now? The release has been out for a while....
rzs19	or not completly synced, whatever.
rzs19	seems so... just wait, or use 3.5.12
rzs19	maybe on mailinglist stands something new?
sheldonl	the ppa lives on pearsoncomputing.net  is that what is having problems syncing?
rzs19	ti makes load balancing to antoher mirror.
sheldonl	ah\
sheldonl	ok
rzs19	maybe there is some finished mirror, but i don't know.
schreiberstein	:-( still no rhel packages :-(
sheldonl	I guess I can ask on the mailing list. Maybe someone knows.
sheldonl	I'd REALLY like to get back to KDE 3.5 :)
sheldonl	best linux desktop ever made!
rzs19	I#am back with 3.5.12 and it works. but still waiting for 3.5.13
sheldonl	and klineakconfig will work on it just fine. I don't have to port to kde 4. ;)
rzs19	klineakconfig = ?
rzs19	we need a pulseaduio qt3/kde frontend.
sheldonl	KDE front end to my program lineakd. Lets you configure multimedia keyboards.
rzs19	pulseaudio - damn i always write it wrong...
rzs19	oh, nice :)
sheldonl	there are plugins for konqy, kmail, kmixer, and a couple other things I forget now.
sheldonl	all uses dcop. I don't want to port to dbus :(
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rzs19	if we got soemthing working, than we need to create something new, so that we got not bored... like devfs, hal, udev, wahtevercomesafterallthat :P
sheldonl	I think dcop is much better, easy to use and understand.
sheldonl	and debug.
sheldonl	you can check it out at lineak.sourceforge.net
sheldonl	but project is inactive for a long time now.
sheldonl	mainly b/c I don't want to port to kde4.
Fat-Zer	talking about  dbus vs  dcop?
rzs19	nice :)
sheldonl	and gnome/kde used all the keycodes I collected for most of the keyboards and they built it in, so my program is not as much a requirements. Also X now used kernel event infrastructure so on usb you don't need as much.
sheldonl	thx
sheldonl	yes. my opinion is dcop rules ;)
Z_God	sheldonl: you don't mind debugging dcop??
sheldonl	and dbus drools ;_
rzs19	atm i'am plaing arroudn with superkaramba to write a nice dock, after that i will play around with kio, maybe i can integrate bluez.
Z_God	it wasn't my favourite part in reviving the xparts & kmozilla stuff
sheldonl	not really. the command line tools make it pretty straight forward to discover the calls and parameters.
sheldonl	I never did figure out dbus.
sheldonl	lol
sheldonl	superkaramba was awesome back in the day
sheldonl	what do ou guys think about using GIO instead of kio-slaves?
sheldonl	the one thing that I think gnome does better is their vfs. especially when trying to stream movies over a cifs share on a lan.
Fat-Zer	or it can at  least edit   files via  net..
sheldonl	true
sheldonl	that is pretty sweet, but it does it by copying files locally and then resyncing no?
Fat-Zer	no
Fat-Zer	it mounts  fs via fuse
sheldonl	are you talking about kio or gvfs?
Fat-Zer	gvfs
Fat-Zer	AFAIK to .gvfs directory
sheldonl	right. yes, gvfs does that and kio copies locally.
Z_God	sheldonl: ok, I had to debug the actually dcop communication itself because the dcop c client was broken ..
sheldonl	I think we should have a kio like interface onto a gvfs/gio backend.
Z_God	why not onto KDE4?
Fat-Zer	O_O
Z_God	or use whatever lib KDE4 uses?
sheldonl	z_god: ah, ok. But I seem to recall the dcop stuff was also pretty straight forward, lots of marshalling code, etc but not too hairy...?
Z_God	sheldonl: yep, there was a bug in the marshalling
rzs19	damn, whats wrong with twinview and superkaramba, hmm ...
Fat-Zer	the  idea is as  crazy as rename all  apps  with "s/k/t/"
Z_God	I hope there are no bugs like that anymore now *knock* *knock*
sheldonl	I think KDE4 still has kio slaves not too much different from KDE3... but I haven't looked at the code.
sheldonl	lol. yes
sheldonl	someone actually ported gvfs to kde, but kde dev's ignored him.
rzs19	man that renaming is...a little bit... strange, kwin-trinity != kwin-kde4 ...
sheldonl	z_god: fixing the marshalling would be PITA. No wonder you didn't like it ;)
Fat-Zer	IMHO to get functionality of gnom we have to drop kio and use gvfs or nearly completely rewrite it...
sheldonl	I imagine that dbus is basically the same though, you'd have to marshall at some point wouldn't you?
Z_God	I guess yes
sheldonl	well it would be good if you could do gvfs in the background and interface to it like you do with KIO; but I don't have any idea of how that would work.
rzs19	why use bottombar, both of my montiros? strange *reading the docu*
sheldonl	maybe you could even wrap the api...
Z_God	the bug was in the marshalling of integers, the problem with this code was also that it wasn't used much
sheldonl	gotcha
sheldonl	anyways... I think that is the one largest failing of KDE infrastructure right now.
sheldonl	but after gnome3 and unity I think KDE is our only hope...
rzs19	there is aloso MATE
rzs19	also*
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 580 filed by rafe@taevaste.zapto.org.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=580 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Use xz for packages
sheldonl	MATE?
rzs19	MATE == gnome 2 fork
Fat-Zer	gnome2  fork
sheldonl	LOL. Already? Awesome. Gnome2 isn't that bad, they should have evolved it instead of rewriting the whole shell.
Fat-Zer	xfce also is quite good...
Fat-Zer	but i'm not a gtk fan at all...
sheldonl	haven't used xfce for a number of years, but it's not really a full desktop is it?
sheldonl	I'm not a gtk fan either.
rzs19	but i don't know if he will make improvments, or just fixing problems.
sheldonl	i don't know why he doesn't just write a gnome2 shell on top of gnome3 infrastructure....
rzs19	i don't like the gtk/gnome dialogs, like printing, or file. but thats taste
sheldonl	if canonical can write a shell certainly someone else can too.
Fat-Zer	it's looks full but uses some  parts of gnome like nm-applet and gvfs...
sheldonl	I'll have another look, but what I really want is a shiny new KDE 3.5.13 ;)
Fat-Zer	why we are not writing a kicker+kdesktop infrastracture on top of kde4?
sheldonl	good question ;)
sheldonl	get rid of plasma.....
rzs19	kicker an kdestops was ported to qt4 in some alpha version of kde4
Fat-Zer	mm...
rzs19	but there is so much more like nepomuk and strigi.
sheldonl	I think the 'make your whole desktop = superkaramba' was not too smart.
rzs19	superkaramba is nice for some parts, but not for a whole desktop
sheldonl	anyone remember the card based KDE desktop proposal some guy did? I thought that was great.
Fat-Zer	AFAIK kde is reengeniaring  it infrostructure now isn't  it?
sheldonl	yes, for kde5
rzs19	i would like to see more use of kparts in konqueror
sheldonl	i hear you.
rzs19	and i dont like dolphin. konqueror can much more.
rzs19	dolphin could just do one split, but i need much more splits
rzs19	i miss splitting in konsole :)
Fat-Zer	=))
Fat-Zer	if I'll have time i want to  finish the keramic theame for kde4...
Fat-Zer	i realy miss it
Fat-Zer	and also there is no damn panel-hide-button in plasma
Fat-Zer	i miss it too...
Strangelv	"Splitting in Konqueror or Konsole?
rzs19	Splitting in konquerorworks perfectly, but not in konsole, yakuake can it
Strangelv	"How do I invoke it, not that I'm suer I want to do it.  I'm a very heavy tab user
rzs19	am right klick i nthe field right of the green point, there stands soemthing like 8 Items - 5 Files (..) - 3 Folders. make a right klick and say split vertical, or split horizontal, us can split and split and salit
rzs19	is alos use tabs, but splitting is nessacary for me
rzs19	i often have some instance of kpdf as kpart
rzs19	ist very usefull
rzs19	and without it, i'am lost :)
* Strangelv uses Plastik decorations with Keramik style
Strangelv	I must admit that most of the time I only use Konqueror as a file manager -- and always in tree mode -- I can't remember if I filed a bug report for not being able to make tree mode the default with 3.5.12
Strangelv	The unchangeable default of icon is almost completely useless to me
Fat-Zer	is there  some sence in backporting okular?
Strangelv	"I've partially worked around this with my default startup session having Konquer started up already and set to tree mode
rzs19	okular was damn slow...
rzs19	eats up all my ram...
Strangelv	"There could be.  I'm not familiar with Okular, at least not by name
* Strangelv wasn't using KDE 4.1 for very long before he was close to destroying his machine in rage
Strangelv	The rage largely being caused by the militant pro-KDE4 partisans and what I was seeing with the Kubuntu developers
Fat-Zer	okular is the most  powerful  ebook viewer
Fat-Zer	*on linux
Strangelv	I didn't have anyone militantly trying to cram Windows Me down my throat, which migcht be why it took longer for that to have me close to hurling my machine across the room in rage
Strangelv	So basicalyl you're wondering about a TQt/Qt3 variant?
Fat-Zer	yeap...
Fat-Zer	wait  a  second...
Strangelv	If Qt3 becomes more popular as a result of Tim's efforts, it might be useful to look into the barkport ability.  If you're runinng a desktop or workstation, though, how much of a penalty is it to have Qt3 and Qt4 both running?
Fat-Zer	it's a  qt-only app it, doesn't require kdelibs...
Fat-Zer	i think  not really a lot...
Fat-Zer	anyway it's not a first-need-to-port
rzs19	lol Strangelv :D
Strangelv	I depend very heavily on my desktop environment
Strangelv	When it sabotages me I can't get anything done
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Strangelv	Being confined to bed most of the time, what I do on a computer is most of my life
Strangelv	KDE 3 / TDE's customizability is very valuble and important to me
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Strangelv	KDE 4 was not very customizable at all when I tried it.  I couldn't do too many things I needed it to do.  No, I don't remember specifics.  I'm probably better off not remembering very much
* Strangelv mostly remembers feeling trapped and suffocated
rzs19	why confined to bed?
schreiberstein	a few months ago I asked this at a gnome-channel : "Why did the gnome-team quit developing gnome2?" - "because kde3 felt lonely"
Strangelv	rzs19: ME/CFS
Strangelv	When I'm up I'm generally in either my power chair or my scooter.  As inconvzenient as that sounds, the brain fog is much, much worse
Strangelv	schreiberstein: 8\
rzs19	Strangelv: thats bad :(
Strangelv	see definition ME/CFS
Strangelv	Well, that's not enough to tell you.  Ther's some pretty stupid definitions out there
Strangelv	Worse than the disease is how the CDC, King's College, et c. respond to it, and promoting treatments every bit as idiotic and suicidal as 'graduated sugarl therapy' would be for type I diabetics
Strangelv	The best definitions are the Canadiat Consensus and the International Consensus.  Neither makes a guess as to cause.  It's probably a retrovirus, a FUBAR immune system, or both
Strangelv	...and completely off topic for this channel
Strangelv	One patient's blog refers to it as teh Kafka pandemic
Strangelv	sorry for the off-topic rant
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MutantTurkey	samelian: hey!
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schreiberstein	yahoo!
schreiberstein	http://trinity.mangafrance.com/
schreiberstein	redhat repo!
schreiberstein	you'll just have to edit the *.repo file to pint to this mirror
MutantTurkey	is it all synced?
MutantTurkey	I think the mirrors should all be synced by the end of today
schreiberstein	this mirror just contains the redhat enterprise packages
MutantTurkey	right
Z_God	MutantTurkey: I saw the note about the meeting, but I don't know what "in the evening" means
Z_God	regarding timezones, etc.
Z_God	I think I have an exam on the 16th, so I can't really attend if it's outside of the CET day
Space_Man	looks like the 3.5.13 mirror is now working
Space_Man	well done Tim
schreiberstein	yahoo!
schreiberstein	thank you very much!
Z_God	MutantTurkey: have to catch a train now, I'll check the channel log & mail for details on the meeting
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* Strangelv pcromptly runs into trouble with his test dist-upgrade
rzs19	Strangelv: sounds bad :(
rzs19	Strangelv: sry for ma late response
MutantTurkey	what is CET timezone?
* MutantTurkey doesnt know where that is
rzs19	Strangelv: i hope you will get well, sometimes :/
Strangelv	"Central European Time
Strangelv	I used to live in that time zone when I was in the Air Force
rzs19	and CEST means Sommertime - useless :D
MutantTurkey	how far ahead is it?
Strangelv	"It's an hour or two ahead of GMT
MutantTurkey	I'd like Z_God to attend.
rzs19	Strangelv: don't be sad, your not the only one here which is "sick".
Strangelv	"it wants to uninstall OpenOfficeorg, install firefox-trunk firefox-trunk-globalmenu icecat libqt3-mt libtqtinterface trinity-keyring ttf-opensymbol uno-libs3 ure
* Strangelv is too angry to be sad
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: get rid of openoffice.
MutantTurkey	it's terrible!
MutantTurkey	install libreoffice :)
Strangelv	I'm running Meerkat.  I don't know if Libre is available
MutantTurkey	Meerkat?
Strangelv	"But ye,s I do want to get id of OOo as soon as I can.  I want nothing to do with Oracle
MutantTurkey	Oracle is evil! :p
Strangelv	"Trinity Kubuntu 10.10
MutantTurkey	ah
rzs19	which distribution do you use?
Strangelv	"I want nothing to do with Oracle, Adobe, to the extent that it's avoidable, Sony... Con Agra... Monsanto... more I'm forgetting
rzs19	i think debian stable has libeoffice in his backports, or install it fro mtesting and use apt pinning, when you use debian
Strangelv	Microsoft isn't on my boycot list -- it's preventing me frlom using any of its products by other means.  EULAs and lack of Linux support
Strangelv	When things settle down I hope to upgrlade from Meerkat, but will probably test with another machine
Strangelv	I depend too heavily on this one
MutantTurkey	I like sony for their physical products
MutantTurkey	microsoft is byfar the least evil lately
Strangelv	Microsoft is being far more stupid than evil
MutantTurkey	I see Ubuntu much more evil than microsoft
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MutantTurkey	as well as oracle
MutantTurkey	they have more of an ability to hurt / effect the linux desktop.
MutantTurkey	they could either improve it greatly or totally destroy it.
MutantTurkey	Microsoft has no bearing on linux.
Strangelv	Microsoft might get on my list in its capacity as a patent troll
MutantTurkey	as compared to Oracle or SCO?
gryc	ubuntu is heading toward destruction. we have no chance to survive, make your time, etc.
Strangelv	What's a drop-in exit ramp from Kubuntu?
tonda-1337	:-( http://pastebin.com/BypBUYkV
Strangelv	Something that doesn't require a reinstall or a mess of complications
MutantTurkey	tonda-1337: :[ lemmie take a look
tonda-1337	this is just fyi... i'll edit the repo file on my machine to tell him the exact path
MutantTurkey	who's our redhat packager?
MutantTurkey	Francois?
rzs19	oha! it seems that the snyc is done :D
rzs19	*upgrading to 3.5.13*
MutantTurkey	nice
MutantTurkey	I just uploaded my arch packages to the AUR as well
rzs19	maybe i had should do a backup of my system... hmm...
MutantTurkey	rzs19: meh :P
MutantTurkey	actually you should
MutantTurkey	just in case :)
rzs19	but i'am running out of space, my infrastrcuture is not done
rzs19	need maybe brtfs for deduplication
rzs19	there are much backupswith radundant data, which i need to clean with zfs, brtfs, or by hand
MutantTurkey	btrfs is not ready yet
MutantTurkey	imho
MutantTurkey	I am waitin for the btrfsck tool
samelian	MutantTurkey: from now, all development will be done on git?
rzs19	i know, thats the problem with btrfs
rzs19	zfs is due licensing not in the kernel, so i must use zfs with freebsd over qemu, or xen ...
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	samelian: definitely yes
MutantTurkey	that was decided a long time ago
MutantTurkey	tim is now making the migration
samelian	ok
MutantTurkey	as I can see, good progress as well http://git.trinitydesktop.org/cgit/
samelian	I think I should ask for commit rights
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	more people will have commit rights now
samelian	very well
MutantTurkey	because we own it
MutantTurkey	before SVN was at kde.org, we no longer want to rely on them.
samelian	I hope the quality of code will remain very high :)
MutantTurkey	if not higher :P
MutantTurkey	but for things like packages, we have a git repository for the packagers
MutantTurkey	obviously many people need commit access to that.
tonda-1337	MutantTurkey: Good work! I'll try out the arch-pkgbuilds later.. is there a package mirror, or do i have to compile them myself?
MutantTurkey	tonda-1337: you will have to compile them yourself for now
MutantTurkey	I /can/ upload them to my server
MutantTurkey	I have x86_64 only though
tonda-1337	i use x86_64 only
MutantTurkey	I am in the process of gaining control of our previous mirror.
MutantTurkey	tonda-1337: great!
MutantTurkey	want me to upload the packages to my server?
tonda-1337	would be cool. i'll install arch again and try it out
MutantTurkey	its /very/ beta
MutantTurkey	I havent done any testing on it
MutantTurkey	other than me running it OK
MutantTurkey	I am going to test in a vm ok?
MutantTurkey	then i'll upload :0
MutantTurkey	:)
MutantTurkey	already realized some problems :P
tonda-1337	yeah... no need to hurry up
MutantTurkey	well I need to write a rc.d script for it.
MutantTurkey	for kdm
MutantTurkey	you can still launch manually or with another WM
tonda-1337	i don't use the deamon at all... I'll write it into inittab
rzs19	upgrade done, logout ... cu in some minutes - i hope :P
tonda-1337	:-D
tonda-1337	good uck!
tonda-1337	+l
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MutantTurkey	tonda-1337: really?
MutantTurkey	I have inittab
rzs19	hmm damn run out of disk space :D
rzs19	54mb free
MutantTurkey	what it your kdm is crashing? then it constantly respawns it.
MutantTurkey	rzs19: !?
MutantTurkey	wow
MutantTurkey	small hard drive?
tonda-1337	MutantTurkey: then : CTRL+ALT+F1 -> root -> init 3 -> fix the problem -> init 5
MutantTurkey	meh :p
MutantTurkey	I like the daemons way :)
tonda-1337	:-D
rzs19	2x80, 1x250gb, 1x1TB, 1x500GB, 1x40GB. may desktop runs in a linux container and i forgot to bind mount my home, so the home lies on the root partition and noth on the home partion, my root has only 15 GB and my most data lies on my dockstar(it runs debian).
rzs19	there are much more harddrives, but... i got confuesd :D
tonda-1337	lol
rzs19	one dockstar(my little can anything armserver), 2 workstations, one gaming pc, one old backupsystem, and old g3 mac and 2 kvm switches.
tonda-1337	i often create just one partition for linux (on my gpt/guid-drive for my hackintosh) and then install arch on it.
tonda-1337	partition is big enough for everything... no need for a swap partition... 16GB RAM :-p
rzs19	oh and 2 amd geode, one thin and one to watch dvd, tv in the bedroom :D
MutantTurkey	partitions?
MutantTurkey	I use 256mb for /boot 30gb /root and the rest on /home. No swap space
rzs19	i need to switch to lvm...
rzs19	too much lxc, qemu andwahtever systems...
rzs19	could it be that trinity ots faster, or its just a feeling?
rzs19	maybe i run out of coffee?
MutantTurkey	trinity ots/
MutantTurkey	?
tonda-1337	lol
rzs19	is*
MutantTurkey	trinity is quite speedy for me
rzs19	yeah but a mean faster that 3.5.12
rzs19	than*
rzs19	or maybe we should drink more coffee?
MutantTurkey	haha :p
rzs19	mentaly slow... or so
MutantTurkey	focus is always on stability, speed and improvments
rzs19	you sound like a pr manager, or so...
rzs19	marketing
MutantTurkey	my dad worked in PR for a while, I think I get it from him :)
MutantTurkey	I'm quite the salesman though. I should really get a job in retail!
rzs19	well, nice i need soemone for my useless software, so its looks usefull :D
rzs19	hmm, feels too fast, something must be wrong with my system
rzs19	to*
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 581 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=581 blocker, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kdelibs 3.5.13 FTBFS
rzs19	well in my debian system is now a button "about ubuntu"
rzs19	ähm kubuntu
rzs19	kuhbuntu :D muh muh
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 582 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=582 major, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Can't build 3.5.13 tarballs with autotool with QT4 installed
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KingSphinx	Wait a sec, the mirror's working?
KingSphinx	:o The mirrors are up! YES!!
rzs19	:D :D
rzs19	and it seems 3.5.13 performs very well :)
KingSphinx	I just hope it's not as buggy as its nightly brethren
rzs19	atm i use konsole, kwrite, superkaramba, konqueror, yakuake and its works.
rzs19	+kate
schreiberstein	rzs19: which distro?
rzs19	debian squeeze with a little bit of testing
KingSphinx	Ubuntu 11.10 here.
schreiberstein	i'll try 3.5.13 on archlinux.
rzs19	it works, its fast, its seems to be stable
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rzs19	http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8882/tbar4.png
MutantTurkey	http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/releases/3.5.13/applications/konv> http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8882/tbar4.png
MutantTurkey	sorry :P
rzs19	hm?
MutantTurkey	rzs19: what bar is that?
MutantTurkey	schreiberstein: hey are you running arch now/
MutantTurkey	I put pkgbuilds up on the AUR
rzs19	my superkarambabar
MutantTurkey	if you want to try and build it
rzs19	damn i do too much as root...
MutantTurkey	anyone who could give the PKGBUILDs a go would be awesome.
MutantTurkey	I've gotta go to a birthday dinner for my girlfriend... wish me luck :p
MutantTurkey	cya!
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rzs19	cya
rzs19	it works, but its not finished yet, no eyecandy and no config file, no configuration dialog, no task refresh and some rendering bugs.
edogaa	hmm
rzs19	but i'am working on it :)
edogaa	no i386 yet
edogaa	at least not in fedora 15 lol
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rzs19	i will upload the bar/dock when its ready to use :) and now i will play a little bit my hacked empire earth version :D bye bye
edogaa	see ya
rzs19	bye :)
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schreiberstein	back
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schreiberstein	hello KingSphinx!
KingSphinx	Well, the mirrors work... sadly, Trinity's still as broken as the nightly.
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aquarius	hm... it works now??
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KingSphinx	The mirrors are up, but Trinity's still got a few... bugs.
aquarius	i see.
aquarius	well then.. i'll wait till those are fixed.
aquarius	anyways.. i'm having sound probs again...
KingSphinx	Kicker's still got that bug where Settings or System will bring it down.
KingSphinx	Seems to be something related to SVG rendering.
aquarius	dunno about that
KingSphinx	Also, Kopete can't connect to Yahoo for me.
KingSphinx	The compositing manager works nicely though.
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l0ner	!seen MutantTurkey
tbottu	l0ner: MutantTurkey was last seen in #trinity-desktop 2 hours, 9 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <MutantTurkey> cya!
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aquarius	anyone there?
schreiberstein	aquarius: lol... i'm here
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aquarius	hey
aquarius	do you know anything about ALSA?
schreiberstein	not that much... what's your problem?
aquarius	i've been having this nasty audio problem ever since i got onto Debian......
aquarius	streams are taking over each other!
aquarius	usually in cooperation with special kinda programs like Skype...
aquarius	actually i did manage to make it work relatively fine altogether... but i then fucked it up a bit and had to re-install Debian again.. and so i did, and now it's back again.. and i dunno how to bring the last lucky setting back.. i really don't understand how it works...
aquarius	i wish i could get rid of it...
schreiberstein	i don't have a idea. i had problems with alsa on debian too... sound was nasty on the newest debian sid kernel. then i switched back to arch and these problems disappeared. sorry for being unhelpful :-(
aquarius	example: when i play something in a player and start up skype it jams the sound in both programs..
aquarius	it's ok...
aquarius	it's THE ONLY prob i have... well, except for font rendering thing, but it's on every linux based OS, so i don't count that...
aquarius	the rest is just fine.
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aquarius	back i am...
schreiberstein	wb aquarius!
aquarius	thanks...
edogaa	:/ So how long till Fedora 15 32 bit can get trinity I wonder
edogaa	I see a lot of 64 bit stuff on some of the mirrors
KingSphinx	You on 32-bit?
edogaa	yeah
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 576 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=576 blocker, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, Kubuntu mirrors broken
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 572 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=572 critical, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, Problems with KDE Trinity 3.5.13 repositories on Debian Squeeze/Wheezy amd64
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KingSphinx	Any idea if live CDs are going to be made available soon?
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schreiberstein	good night!
Space_Man	night
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edogaa	i think i'll ask on the mailinglist about 32bit :|
edogaa	nah I'll just wait (just looked at mangafrance)
edogaa	http://trinity.mangafrance.com/f15/trinity-3.5.13/RPMS/  i386... but there is nothing in there yet.
edogaa	o_O Uidaho or whatever it's called has only 64 bit binaries. hmm
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KingSphinx	Until a patch is commited for the KMenu bug, a way around it is to use Kickoff. Crazy, I know, but at least Kickoff isn't crashing over something as silly as an art bug.
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rzs19	good evning :)
aquarius	hey..
KingSphinx	Also, I think Trinity just plain doesn't like my USB headset >_> sound will work just fine through my speakers, but I can't get anything through that headset.
rzs19	aquarius: your land looks nice :)
aquarius	hah.. :)
aquarius	thanks
aquarius	why would you mention it now?
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rzs19	is this a feature, that my left screen get locked, but i can see any programm on my right screen and not just a wallpaper, or black screen?
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aquarius	don't ask me
rzs19	soo, i need to go, watch a film and go to bed, cu you tommorow
rzs19	good night :)
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Xu_R	o3o
Xu_R	I thought tim was waiting until dec to move? o_O
edogaa	ah
edogaa	in uidaho.edu it seems they'll only put up x86_64 architecture version of trinity o._O
edogaa	:/ do sll mirrors really just do their own thing.
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KingSphinx	Would it be worth noting that the KMenu bug somehow doesn't affect Exe Linux? I'm still using Ubuntu, mind you, but nothing really bad happened while running my Exe Linux live CD.
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MutantTurkey	whew party went okay
MutantTurkey	:)
MutantTurkey	forgot my charger though, I thought I was charging it and it turns out it wasnt plugged in properly... I have 10% to write an english paper on
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edogaa	is there going to be support for 64 bit Fedora 15? o.O
edogaa	because I see very few 32 bit stuff on the two mirrors
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KingSphinx	If only Exe's installer weren't so confusing to me, I might have it installed by now.
KingSphinx	Also, I have absolutely no idea why GTK applications are not following my KDE settings. Possible bug?
gryc	KingSphinx: that kmenu bug is dependant on which version of libart is installed and/or linked against. Exe Linux may have a different (older?) version.
gryc	Also some gtk apps are crashing for me, but it may be my wonky install to blame for that.
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tbottu	10contact@philipashmore.com changed the Status on bug 572 from RESOLVED FIXED to REOPENED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=572 critical, P5, ---, kb9vqf, REOPENED, Problems with KDE Trinity 3.5.13 repositories on Debian Squeeze/Wheezy amd64
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KingSphinx	Bleh, why won't my GTK apps work right with Trinity? Also, the Keramik decoration seems to be missing entirely.
MutantTurkey	do you have it set?
MutantTurkey	in the kcontrol settings?
MutantTurkey	under appearances & themes i think
KingSphinx	Mhm, if I set it, the window decorator seems to diappear.
KingSphinx	*disappear
KingSphinx	As in KWin seems to crash or something, I can't access any window controls/borders unless I select a different window decoration.
MutantTurkey	submit bug
MutantTurkey	with backtrace
MutantTurkey	I can hack on it maybe
MutantTurkey	:)
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KingSphinx	How can I get a backtrace if TDE doesn't report a crash? The decoration just never shows up, leaves my windows with no borders...
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jumpship	Is anyone using konversation-trinity?
KingSphinx	I have it, but I'm in Windows right now, so I'm using XChat-WDK.
jumpship	I'm trying to enable the system tray icon, I can't seems to get the setting to save, any issues you know of? Looked on bugtracker already.
KingSphinx	Nothing I know of, it works fine so far on my end.
jumpship	Thanks, I'll look closer at this install then.
KingSphinx	Kubuntu, Debian or Fedora?
jumpship	Debian
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* Strangelv discovers that the source-related files for Meerkat contain things important for mocre than just installing from source
Strangelv	"It sems to be working for me now
KingSphinx	You installed Trinity Meerkat, then upgraded up to Oneiric?
Strangelv	"That's the plan, although I believ i need to upgrade to Natty in between
* Strangelv needs t get it to do this witnhout updating Icecat yet. He doesn't want to restart icecat
KingSphinx	I hoped that was implied from what I said earlier...
Strangelv	I probably missed it
Strangelv	Actually I need to get up and do something before trying this
Strangelv	"Plus make a phone call.  Have someone who may be stopping by to pick up some political signs to get up before voting on Tuesday
Strangelv	"Has anyone tested doing the upgrlade with dist-upgrade?
* Strangelv may need to break down and restart icecad so he can do it that way exactly
Strangelv	bbiab
KingSphinx	So in order to have a fully-working Trinity, I'd need to install using a 10.10 live CD, then upgrade all the way to 11.10, then install 3.5.13?
Strangelv	If you're doing a celan install you can skip those steps, but I don't know exactly what packages to install after installation
Strangelv	"or even a reinstall
* Strangelv is wanting to avoid a reinstall
Strangelv	"You could grab Ubuntu Server or something, then edit sources.lis,t then install the needed packages
KingSphinx	Reinstalls aren't that bad for me since I keep a separate / and /home, but it still sounds a bit tedious. Plus, I need a desktop because my wireless won't work out-of-box with Ubuntu, I have to set up firmware.
* Strangelv is hoping to just run apt-get dist-upgrade a few times
Strangelv	My main complication is keeping track of all the things I'd need to reinstall
Strangelv	"I also learned long ago to give / its own partition.  Usually a relatively small one
Strangelv	I kind of splurged and made it around 64 GB this time.  Less than half is in use
KingSphinx	Same for me, though I'm also concerned about whether Trinity would stay installed between installations.
KingSphinx	I gave 12 GB to /
KingSphinx	only about half is ever used.
Strangelv	"I've had less, but usually ran into trouble eventually
Strangelv	df says my root is using 19 GB
Strangelv	so quite a bit less than half
Strangelv	32 GB probably would have been sufficient; 24 wuld have been cutting it close; 20 or less and I'd be in trouble
Strangelv	anything before I disappear?
KingSphinx	Nothing that I can think of other than wondering at which point in the upgrade process to switch over to 3.5.13 sources.
Strangelv	"I would say immediately
Strangelv	"My step one is to upgrade to 3.5.13 for Meerkat
Strangelv	"Then upgrade to NAtty, then to Oneric
KingSphinx	Seems like a good idea
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Strangelv	...unless I find out first that that won't work.  I need to test it on another machine first
Strangelv	Complication is the easiest one to test it on is stuck at Jaunty
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KingSphinx	Should I install a WM so I can do the upgrades outside of the Trinity environment or is it safe to do that within TDE?
Strangelv	...and if i upgrade it my display doesn't work because something changed after Jaunty that doesn't support my 17" display
Strangelv	WM?
KingSphinx	Windows manager, like Fluxbox, IceWM, Window Maker...
KingSphinx	er, *window
Strangelv	I don't believe so, or at least I've never doen that that I can recall
Strangelv	"I've normalyl run apt-get from konsole
Strangelv	even for upgrading realyl big and important things
Strangelv	bbiab
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Strangelv	back
gryc	KingSphinx: I upgraded from maverick to natty to oneric yesterday and then installed trinity. If you're worried, uninstall all the trinity packages before upgrading?
gryc	And your windowmanager should stay in memory while doing your upgrade. it's only copying new files over after all
KingSphinx	Then that would sort of defeat the purpose of (hopefully) getting 3.5.13 to fully work. Strangelv thinks that by installing 3.5.12, then upgrading to .13, it might fix a few issues currently present in .13
KingSphinx	Matter of fact, I could do the upgrade from .12 to .13 before ever upgrading from Maverick...
gryc	Yeah, you could
gryc	and by staying in memory, I mean when you log out and back in it will re-load all your new trinity binaries and such
Strangelv	"I don't see valiue in installing 3.5.12 if .13 is available at all meaningful entry points
Strangelv	unless it's already installed
KingSphinx	I was hoping that, by installing 3.5.12 first, then upgrading to 3.5.13, I might be able to do away with the issues present in 3.5.13...
KingSphinx	Or would that not work?
gryc	What would be the difference between upgrading and just installing .13?
KingSphinx	Hopefully it would preserve my settings? For one, GTK apps aren't working properly with Trinity right now, the Keramik style is missing its window border, you know about the Kicker crash related to KMenu...
gryc	are your settings not stored in ~/.trinity/?
KingSphinx	They were, but like a dummy, I deleted my .trinity thinking it would fix the Kicker glitch. Ever since starting fresh, it's been practically nothing but trouble for me.
gryc	I know how you feel, it took me forever to turn off the interminable bleeps and bloops when I did anything
KingSphinx	The window noises?
gryc	The everything noises :P
gryc	open, close, maximize, minimize, shading, all that crap
KingSphinx	I sorta like them (I find them part of the charm of KDE3), but I can see why they'd get annoying
gryc	well I do a lot of stuff with my windows and it got annoying quick
jumpship	KingSphinx: Didn't you run kicker in a terminal and get messages related to art_render_gradient.c when it crashed?
KingSphinx	But what my thinking is, is that by installing 3.5.12, then upgrading to .13 instead of installing fresh, is that my settings and whatever will carry over. And yes, jumpship, I did.
jumpship	bug 554
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=554 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, art_render_gradient.c makes kicker and konqueror crash
KingSphinx	Aw, it won't be patched for quite a while?
jumpship	I don't really know, just something about that made me remember your issue
* Strangelv /looks for where to disable the gradient before running apt-get
Strangelv	"...or maybe I should postpone doig something that might eat up more time than expected until after Tuesday...
gryc	The solution is to compile your own version of that library with the patch in that bug applied.
KingSphinx	So would upgrading from 3.5.12 have the same effect as just installing fresh or would stuff like GTK work better? I sort of suspect GTK having issues in 11.10 because I probably don't have a lot of GTK2 stuff installed
jumpship	I wonder if the GTK thing isn't because of the gtk-qt thing, are you using the pkg that renders gtk prog with qt?
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jumpship	gtk-qt-engine is what it's called
KingSphinx	It's installed and I have GTK apps set to use my KDE style, that's precisely why I say there's a problem because, well, they *don't* folloy Qt style.
KingSphinx	*follow
jumpship	gtk3 apps?
KingSphinx	GTK2 and stuff like Firefox; GTK3 apps flat-out refuse to work in TDE now.
jumpship	yep, bug 547
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=547 enhancement, P5, ---, mutantturkey, ASSIGNED, gtk-qt-engine does not support GTK3
jumpship	gtk2 should work, at least I havn't seen anything related to gtk2 no working
KingSphinx	GTK2/Firefox will work to varying degrees of success, but none of them will follow TDE theme-wise
jumpship	Can't help ya there, I just keep things simple by not using the engine
Strangelv	"Is the gradient a .13 feature?
jumpship	But that wouldn't help you if you're trying to get them to look the same
gryc	the gradient issue is an ancient libart bug
gryc	it never got fixed because nothing uses it anymore, except for trinity, that is :p
Strangelv	What is it used for?
jumpship	I think it had to do with svg support, but could be wrong
gryc	Yes, it's for rendering SVGs
gryc	it's an assert gone awry for some reason
gryc	but the patch is there. I'd like to say I'll give a whack at fixing it for good sometime, but work makes me busy :(
gryc	would be nice to move to a better/newer library for svg, but that's quite an undertaking.
gryc	But anyway, time for sleep
* Strangelv waves
jumpship	Looks like tim plans to absorb the lib, if it's dead
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Strangelv	Move the needed components to a new library with a different name?
Strangelv	"maybeq combinedh iwth other orphaned needed dependancies?
jumpship	Thats sounds like the plan
Strangelv	kewl
KingSphinx	It's odd how this bug never surfaced until .13...
* Strangelv still doesn't have a clu.e what he ought to disable before the upgrade
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NuxRo	hi guys, has been a week since you announced 3.5.13 and still no binary packages... any repo that has all EL6 rpms?
Fat-Zer	i've seen somothing about red hat repository in mail list...
NuxRo	any links? I'm not subscribed
Fat-Zer	1 min...
Fat-Zer	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/installation.php#redhat
NuxRo	oh
NuxRo	that one
NuxRo	it doesnt work
Fat-Zer	=\
Fat-Zer	can't say nothing more...
NuxRo	so, devs should have wait until downloads worked, then announce
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duindain	hi, does anyone know how to start trinity from the command line ie for vnc? something like gnome-session &
Fleck	lol @ NuxRo
edogaa	>_>;; lol
edogaa	I'm still waiting for 32 bit trinity :/
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edogaa	-.- maybe i should reinstall to 64 bit.
edogaa	How much more ram does a 64 bit system use?
edogaa	( has 2 Gigs of ram)
Fleck	why should 64bit use more ram?
edogaa	64 bit porgrams use slightly more ram than their 32 bit counterparts
edogaa	BUT there is a slight performance increase...though depending on what you're doing the increase can also be enormous
duindain	anyone have issues installing this? mine is currently trying to uninstall sudo
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Fleck	:D
edogaa	THe other benefit though, is that you can use more than 4 gigs of ram as well (but not the only...but it is ONE OF THE BENEFITS).
Fleck	i have not noticed that 32bit uses more ram than 64bit
edogaa	other way around
Fleck	yeah
edogaa	and of course you /won't/
edogaa	I mean, you will if you take a look but hold up lemme get you what I Saw in LFS...
Fleck	i have 8GB now
Fleck	Unused RAM is wasted RAM.
edogaa	http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/stable/prologue/architecture.html
edogaa	YEs, unused ram is wasted ram :/
* Strangelv forked out for a now obso[lete workstation board. He has 16 GB, and probably needs to buy more before rgistered DDR2 becomes too expensive and hald to get
Strangelv	I thikn i multitask enough that I'd have to get pretty carried away to have unused
edogaa	BUT I am wondering if the increase in memory will be a bit much on 2 gigs...doesn't seem like it though
Fleck	TDE and 2GB should be enough!
Strangelv	Depends on what else you're doing
* Strangelv : 15429 strangel 20 0 3100m 2.1g 27m R 89 13.1 2414:51 icecat
edogaa	:/ ugh, and stuff gets so slooooooooooooow
edogaa	once it starts using your swap
edogaa	.________. i need more memory lol
Strangelv	I've learned the hard way that 64 GB of swap isn't a good idea.  Something will go nuts and claim an infinite amount of memory and the kernel won't kill it until it uses up the entire swap partition
edogaa	XD
edogaa	why would you even NEED that much swap
Strangelv	something I've read abut is to have a SSD for swap as effectively slow RAM
Strangelv	The complication is I'm wondering how long it would last
edogaa	LOL
edogaa	i wonder if there is a way to 'upgrade' fedora from 32 to 64 bit :/
edogaa	without losing anything
* Strangelv holds up a 12 layer 7680x7680 truecolor graphic. He's had as much as abut a hundred of these open at once
edogaa	lol?
Strangelv	"Unfortunately, I'm not aware of anyoen making a 32 to 64 upgrade solution
edogaa	ah
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Strangelv	"If /home is a separate partition the least bad solution is to docment everything you'd want to reinstall after reinstalling the operating system
Strangelv	Make absolutely sure you don't guess the wrong format for /home -- Ubuntu's installer will happily reformat it for you. 8(
edogaa	I honestly don't know how this LVM crap works :/
edogaa	But I am sure it is...:/ more or less
Strangelv	LVM?  Kernel Virtual Machine?
edogaa	no.
edogaa	I'm not even sure I used the right...
edogaa	thats the term, god i must be tired lol
Strangelv	I've looked into KVM and still intend ot set up a few sometime, but it was more complexb than I was abel to deal with the time I tried
edogaa	Ah
* Strangelv tries to look for his teenage self woh thrived on complexity
* Strangelv needs to remember how long ago the 1980s really are
edogaa	So, basically reinstall the entire root partition but keep home the same?
Strangelv	yes.  All of yur settings should be there.  Actualyl some things put their stuff in other places, and hopefulyl you can guess waht they are
edogaa	lol, I See.
Strangelv	fonts, ROM images, audio samples -- these are some of the things that might be in /usr/share or someplace
edogaa	hmm
edogaa	hopefully /usr/ isn't in a seperate partition
edogaa	how does fedora seperate them
Strangelv	usr is under root.  Expect it to get wiped out
edogaa	lol
Strangelv	I don't know how it arranges things by default.  They could tehoretically all be on separate partitions
Strangelv	"and even subdivided
Strangelv	I have an old drive somewhere where /boot is a 20 or so MB (yes, MB) partition
edogaa	mmm
Strangelv	I don't remember why that was useful
Strangelv	It was a long time ago
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Strangelv	being /boot, it did'nt need to be any larger thanr that
animeking	mmhmm
animeking	more hdd capacity?
Strangelv	Th one thing I don't know how to do would be if teher's any solution for grouping them -- ie /usr/bin and /var on one partition
Strangelv	that may not be doable
Strangelv	giving it a separate partition actually ace disk capacity, justa trivial amount.  It did eat up a partition slot, though
Strangelv	s/ace/ate/
Strangelv	it might have been a workaround for a long forgotten problem
Strangelv	what do you see when you type in df -h ?
animeking	a lot of things
animeking	my eyes kinda hurt atm lol
animeking	eh, I Don't really feel like doing this :/
animeking	if i do, i'll get even more side tracked
Strangelv	"Tomorrow is the best time-saving device available today
animeking	so I'll do it later :/ if it trinity isn't out by say december 15th
Strangelv	"Should definietly be available well before then.  Admittedly, it should be available already...
Strangelv	It is, just not with teh binary packages you're needing
animeking	yeah, but I don't see 32 bit binaries in mangafrance...
animeking	yeah
animeking	or uidaho
Strangelv	if 64 bit is an option, try to rememberl to verify if /home is a separate partition, and look for whatever data might be inconvenientyl located elsewhere
Strangelv	Ideally, there won't be
animeking	mmhmm
animeking	it just seems to be, swap, root and home
Strangelv	then note what you need to reinstall
Strangelv	Reinstalling Linux is a lot less painful than reinstalling MS Windows
Strangelv	sounds good
animeking	though, i don't understand how the LVM2 partitioning scheme works lol
Strangelv	make suer you know which is which and what format.  I can't give you specific things to watch out for as I'm not using he same distro you are
Strangelv	yeah, needs to be seen as a physical partition to teh installer
Strangelv	If in doubt, make bacrkups-
* Strangelv needs to do that himself again sometime. It's what he bought his blu-ray burner for, after all
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animeking	Hmm, I wonder...why is it taking so long for the 32 bit binaries lol
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Strangelv	Probably the same rleason everything else got held up
animeking	:(
Strangelv	At least it's not all at a standstill now
animeking	indeed, just it's even funnier...that I chose 32 bit when on most of my other PCs I go for 64 bit xD
Strangelv	"I'd rlather not admit to how long I had been awaiting 64 bits, only to end up unable to get ahold of 64 bit for quiet awhile after x86 had a 64 bit implementation on the market
animeking	lol
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Strangelv	I finally got a used 939 pin Athlon 64 around 2008 or so
Strangelv	Morning
Strangelv	"or maybe 2007.  I can't remember anymore
animeking	why do you use a double qoute at the start?
Strangelv	a hibit I pickeup up in late 1999 with ASI MOO, which is still my primary hangout
Strangelv	It's also why you'll see me fumblre and say :: instead of /me
animeking	ah
animeking	when will the mirros try syncing again i wonder?
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animeking	"- Fedora 15 (x86_64 architecture only)." hmm...on another note i see an i386 folder now in the uidaho mirror
animeking	but the folder is empty
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animeking	i'm gonna sleep now
animeking	night :/
animeking	2 hours of sleep ftw :D
Strangelv	ow.  get some sleep
jumpship	Strangelv: It is possible to put /usr/bin and /var on one partition seperate from root, using symlinks
jumpship	and a small /boot was useful when the partition you wanted to use as root was formatted with a fs that wasn't built into the kernel (compiled as module)
Fat-Zer	also separate boot is useful in case of powerfail...
jumpship	oops, really it was if grub (or lilo) didn't support your fs of choice
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rzs19	hello :)
jumpship	Anyone using konversation-trinity?
Fat-Zer	i'm  currently using old oneffrom3.5.10
Fat-Zer	*old one from kde 3.5.10
Fat-Zer	that's counts?
jumpship	I don't think that'll help, I'm trying to figure out what seems to be a bug, I think it's from the conversion to tqt, I'm wondering if it's better in .13
jumpship	It seems to be a very nice client, I just wish the settings worked
Fat-Zer	what a bug?
jumpship	I think somethings in the settings dialog didn't get changed to their tqt versions
jumpship	in the terminal I see messages about QGroupBox not existing, and I think QGroupBox should have become TQGroupBox
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Fat-Zer	yeap... no  messages for me...
jumpship	I guess I'll just go back to kopete till I can check out .13, or manually craft a konversationrc file if that doesn't work
jumpship	You were working on intergrating a different rendering engine into konq, right?
Fat-Zer	me?
Fat-Zer	no
Fat-Zer	i'm working on gentoo packaging and cmake
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xiaoy	Trinity doesn't really work on ubuntu lucid, right?
rzs19	yep me, but not now
xiaoy	?
rzs19	yyesterday i have used konversation from triity 3.5.13
rzs19	trinity*
jumpship	Does the systemtray icon setting work?
xiaoy	jumpship, if you are sying to me: no, doesn't work
jumpship	Are you useing 3.5.13 version?
rzs19	is just regonized some troubles with xinerama
Z_God	xiaoy: I'm running it on lucid right now
xiaoy	Z_God, did you follow the instruction on the website to install?
xiaoy	when i do it, i get kdeinit error, and i can't get konqueror to start
xiaoy	also i can't initialize the wifi
Z_God	xiaoy: I'm still using 3.5.11
Z_God	what you see seem to be huge bugs in 3.5.13
Z_God	could you report them?
xiaoy	Z_God, that's why... is there a way to get 3.5.11 installed on lucyd? do i just have to change the version number in the repos to get it working?
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Z_God	xiaoy: I can give you my apt lines
xiaoy	Z_God, thanks a lot ;-)
Z_God	xiaoy: note this is version is *really* old now
Z_God	http://pastebin.com/pZCF5H91
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xiaoy	Z_God, do you have also the GPG key of the repos?
Z_God	xiaoy: I guess the instructions here should do it: https://launchpad.net/~kde3-maintainers/+archive/ppa
xiaoy	Z_God, thanks a lot
xiaoy	Z_God, you say this version works well?
Z_God	xiaoy: there are also old live images with lucid
Z_God	they definitely work
Z_God	xiaoy: http://tokra.lv/
Strangelv	!seen tokra
tbottu	Strangelv: tokra was last seen in #trinity-desktop 4 weeks, 6 days, 14 hours, 43 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <TokRa> o.O
xiaoy	Z_God, thanks. But i need an installation for repos, not a new distro to install...
Strangelv	Lucid is the long term support version IIRC -- it is one we should be supporting
Z_God	xiaoy: no problem, I hope you can easily remove the trinity packages you have now
Z_God	you really need to purge them all
Strangelv	higher priority than Meerkat, which I'm only running because I couldn't upgrade from that until around yesterday short of going with the nightlies repository
xiaoy	Z_God, did it already ;-)
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Z_God	then kubuntu-desktop-kde3 instead of kubuntu-desktop-trinity & so on
xiaoy	Strangelv, unfortunalely 3.5.12-13 don't work on lucid
Strangelv	oops.  What's teh obstacle?
Z_God	xiaoy: I have not been able to test newer versions yet, these bugs should be fixed soon though
Z_God	3.5.12 nightlies did work on lucid
Z_God	3.5.13 was mainly tested with natty I think
xiaoy	Z_God, 3.5.12 was working only ater forcing a pkg install
xiaoy	and still, on 3.5.12, i can't get my wireless to work
xiaoy	*after
Z_God	xiaoy: you mean knetworkmanager doesn't work?
xiaoy	Z_God, i mean also issueing wifi command in cli
Z_God	that's not related to trinity
xiaoy	Z_God, it must be: in gnome works all correctly
Z_God	then you're using gnome's tools
Z_God	but trinity does not affect any commandline tool functioning
Strangelv	Do Gnome's tools disable the CLI?
xiaoy	Z_God, dunno... i'm just reporting what i see
Strangelv	CLI tools, rather
jumpship	If the gnome tool works you could just use that from trinity
xiaoy	dhclient was not connecting well, maybe was because kdenetworkmanager
xiaoy	it must be like that
xiaoy	i maybe had to remove it, and than try again
Strangelv	knetwork manager sabotaging neworking wihel it's up and running sounds like a possibility.  I should try networking on my notebook with issues withut the GUI running
Z_God	there are always issues using gui & cli tools at the same time
jumpship	There was talk on the mailing list about a change in networkmanager (the backend) seems the gnome tool has been updated, but the trinity knetworkmanager hasn't
Z_God	especially because the gui works through networkmanager and the cli stuff mostly does not
xiaoy	Z_God, on your system do you use kdenetworkmager?
Z_God	xiaoy: yep
xiaoy	and works as well as gnome's networkmanager?
xiaoy	do you have to disable the gnme's one to let kde's work propery?
Z_God	I never used the gnome one much
Z_God	it does what it needs to do, but more advanced stuff doesn't work with it
Z_God	simple stuff like wpa & wired ethernet are no problem
xiaoy	Z_God, and what about memory usage, is kde 3.5.11 lighter than ubuntu lucid's gnome version?
Z_God	I think so
xiaoy	good
Z_God	but I am not a gnome user
Z_God	I never really compared
xiaoy	thaks anyway
Z_God	best thing to do is just trying it
Strangelv	I've also done rather little with gnome
Strangelv	It wasn't until I ran acroos a Gnome developer's comments about why he hated KDE that I understood why I liked KDE so much better.  He said that 'KDE developers never met a control they didn't like'
Strangelv	That's probably the best description of purpose and mission for KDE3/TDE I've read
xiaoy	Strangelv, what does it mean "never met a control they didn't like"?
Strangelv	GIMp tries to dumb things down -- to the point of hiding what the names of some applications are, in the belief that users don't need to know that the archive manager they're using is named File Roller
Strangelv	or that the image viewer is nabed eye of Gnome.  Which to me is instant confusion.  What do I call this application. 'file viewer that isn't Gwenview'?
jumpship	I never understood the gconf thing, they'd talk about confusing options dialogs in kde, so they hide them in a less well organized registry like lump
Strangelv	"They also tend to streamline controls, and according to what I've been told, it ends up requiring users to hack on text files to do certian things.  KDE tries to do absolutely everytnhing potentially useful in the GUI
Strangelv	That must be it
Strangelv	The KDE developers took a very different tack, at leastu ntil they decided to throw away everything that made KDE great exceph for Konqueror and start over with something inferior
Strangelv	So something we need to keep in mind is what it is that we're most needing to carry the banner for
jumpship	That really blew me away, KDE4. Long live Trinity
xiaoy	good bye people, time to go... thanks again for the support
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Strangelv	We should have systematically grilled kiaoy for enough information for a bug report
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_Pete_	hmm
Strangelv	Morninf
l0ner	mornin
_Pete_	why is (again) installing trinity wanting to remove sudo package
l0ner	!seen kb9vqf
tbottu	l0ner: kb9vqf was last seen in #trinity-desktop 5 days, 9 hours, 22 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: <kb9vqf> gn
jumpship	I think the plan is to kill knetworkmanager, or rewrite it
Z_God	_Pete_: will be replaced with sudo-trinity
l0ner	!seen MutantTurkey
tbottu	l0ner: MutantTurkey was last seen in #trinity-desktop 8 hours, 26 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <MutantTurkey> :)
l0ner	I wonder why trinity can't use normal sudo
Z_God	it's something with the paths in the sudo preferences
l0ner	paths?
Z_God	_Pete_: you need to have a root password set temporarily to allow the installation to work
_Pete_	I remembered something like that from earlier version
_Pete_	was kind of trouble after noticed it :)
* Strangelv remembers needing to hack on paths to get kdsu to work
jumpship	Some info on the sudo problem:
jumpship	http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::319
Strangelv	...and the problem comes pre-fixed as of .13 ... although a prob0lem might occur if someone else resorts to the same solution and a user has both
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Strangelv	Speaking of Debian.  Have they been sending us any patches from downstream?
jumpship	I'm not sure we'd see that without it being officially part of debian
Strangelv	I guess that would be a preresiquite, yes
jumpship	and while using /opt I don't think they'll include it
Strangelv	How long until we no longer need to hang out in /opt?
jumpship	I havn't heard any talk of changing anytime soon
Strangelv	...or how mouch trouble would it be to supprot more than one location?
Strangelv	with the non-/opt location existing primarily for Debian and others that consider /opt to be a no longer even depreciated historical relic?
jumpship	I think that would need everything out of the kde namespace
Strangelv	That's already on our to-do list, right?
jumpship	I'm not sure
jumpship	It's a lot of work for not much benefit
* Strangelv hasn't kept up with the development notes for months. He hopes to remember that there's a meeting on the 15th
jumpship	Has a time been picked?
Strangelv	Support from Debian would probably be worth it
Strangelv	IIRC it's sometime in teh afternoon Eastern Standard Time, but I can't remember exactly when
jumpship	I'd love to see it included in Debian
Strangelv	That's worth being a major goal in and of itself
* Strangelv is probably not the only person who didn't kven know /opt existed until TDE moved there
jumpship	Know any Debian devs?
Strangelv	no, this is really my only involvement with the free and open source communities
Strangelv	...and I've been far too not involved enough
jumpship	Google Earth or something else from google uses /opt
Strangelv	Nice to know we're not literally teh only existing product using it
Strangelv	s/existing/not purely historical/
jumpship	I used it in some of my strange packages (wine games)
_Pete_	I think /opt is traditionally used in linux to install non-open/commercial software
jumpship	Thats the impression I got, something else I used to use (non-free) went there, don't remember what
Strangelv	So we may not actually belong there...
jumpship	tldp.org says: This directory is reserved for all the software and add-on packages that are not part of the default installation.
Strangelv	...and we want to be one of the available defaults
jumpship	that might be outdated anyway, it mentions staroffice and wordperfect
jumpship	brings back memories
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* Strangelv looks for his WinWord 2 floppies to install to /opt under WINE
Strangelv	"WinWOrd 2 had a feature I've desperately missed ever since: right click select made a selection of what was bound inside the rectangle and nothing outside of it -- so you could select a sliver of multiple lines separate fromt the rest of the lines
jumpship	like block select?
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 583 filed by f.couperin@online.fr.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=583 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, [kdelibs] startkde fails because of undefined symbol _ZN7QObject18childrenListObjectEv
Strangelv	That looks pretty serious
* Strangelv hadn't heard of blokc select before now
Strangelv	Can't find it in OOo 3.2
Z_God	Strangelv: it's in kate at least
jumpship	I don't know about OOo, but kwrite and I'm sure kate have it
* Strangelv cheers loudly
Strangelv	Thank you!
jumpship	Welcome, I find it handy too, I noticed it has a bug dealing with tabs
* Strangelv has some old documents that need to be de-columned
* Strangelv looks at the time. The recycrling truck will by by imminently
jumpship	treats tabs as a single char, and lines up the block based on char
Z_God	maybe it's fixed in kate 4.x ;)
jumpship	More likely no longer exists :)
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Z_God	what do you mean?
_Pete_	hmm apt-get install didnt quite work :(
_Pete_	http://pastebin.com/ZJzYAZiJ
_Pete_	this is oneiric 64bit
Z_God	never saw this one...
Z_God	you should check in which package those files are supposed to be
Z_God	and why they're missing
Z_God	I would advice using auto-apt for that
jumpship	What would Trinity's session manager have to do with gtk2, or am I missing something?
Fat-Zer	what arch's trinity currently officialy support?
Fat-Zer	or just known to work
jumpship	Dunno, is it on the website?
Fat-Zer	site saies onlyabout distributions...
Fat-Zer	and alpha arch on  debiaan..
jumpship	Thats likely all, i386, amd64, and (debian only) armel, there was talk about armel for ubuntu if debian goes well
Fat-Zer	and there is no information about build tries on ppc or arm?
Strangelv	"Possibyl because we lack anyone who can do those ports with any confidence
Fat-Zer	i'm just interested in this only becaouse i'm thinking what keywords to put to my ebuilds...
_Pete_	http://pastebin.com/QTpb4ff7
_Pete_	how about this one
Z_God	_Pete_: this is a bug in the upgrading process indeed
Z_God	use smth like this:
Z_God	sudo dpkg -r --force-all kubuntu-default-settings-kde3
Z_God	and repeat (if that errors, do sudo apt-get -f install first & then repeat)
_Pete_	hmm
_Pete_	did that -r
_Pete_	ant then install -f
_Pete_	but it still complains about that divert
Z_God	hmm
_Pete_	http://pastebin.com/nGNamBSH
Z_God	I guess you didn't change any diversions yourself?
_Pete_	no idea what that even is
Z_God	in any case, this looks like a bug to me
Z_God	you could try temporarily removing the package containing that file & then installing both ksmserver-trinity and that package again
_Pete_	which file exactly?
Z_God	this one: /usr/bin/plasma.kde4
_Pete_	apt-file says nothing about it
Z_God	I don't know apt-file
_Pete_	and cant install auto-apt at the moment that you suggested
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Z_God	what does dpkg -S /usr/bin/plasma.kde4 say?
_Pete_	# dpkg -S /usr/bin/plasma.kde4
_Pete_	local diversion from: /usr/bin/plasma
_Pete_	local diversion to: /usr/bin/plasma.kde4
gcsimon	hi all
Z_God	gcsimon: hi
Z_God	dpkg -S /usr/bin/plasma ?
_Pete_	the same
gcsimon	i' currently trying to install trinity in a xen-vm. any hint on how to do that?
Z_God	that doesn't seem correct
Z_God	gcsimon: two ways, either get an old live cd & install from that
Z_God	gcsimon: or install a commandline only system and follow the instructions from the site
gcsimon	ok thx
Z_God	that'll give you ubuntu with trinity
gcsimon	the recent live cd crashes in a hardware full-virt vm
gcsimon	but i will give console-pnly a shot
Z_God	it should not be different from a normal ubuntu cd in that sense
Z_God	so I would expect normal ubuntu to crash as well
Z_God	unless it is due to an outdated kernel on the trinity live-cd
Z_God	commandline only should definitely work
Z_God	_Pete_: I hope you can find out a bit more about those files, it seems I can't help much otherwise
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_Pete_	ok lets see
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rzs19	qtcurve-trinity_3.5.13-0debian9+r1254372+pr2~squeeze_amd64.deb seems to be broken, only doc files inside this package!
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rzs19	dpkg --contents ~/Downloads/qtcurve-trinity_3.5.13-0debian9+r1254372+pr2~squeeze_amd64.debdrwxr-xr-x root/root         0 2011-10-15 11:32 ./drwxr-xr-x root/root         0 2011-10-15 11:32 ./usr/drwxr-xr-x root/root         0 2011-10-15 11:32 ./usr/share/drwxr-xr-x root/root         0 2011-10-15 11:32 ./usr/share/doc/drwxr-xr-x root/root         0 2011-10-15 11:32 ./usr/share/doc/qtcurve-trinity/-rw-r--r-- root/root      2234 2011-10-15 04:26 ./usr/shar
rzs19	log.Debian.gz-rw-r--r-- root/root     20822 2010-10-06 02:06 ./usr/share/doc/qtcurve-trinity/changelog.gz-rw-r--r-- root/root      1246 2011-08-21 04:48 ./usr/share/doc/qtcurve-trinity/copyright
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_Pete_	hmm got it "resolved"
_Pete_	hmm got it "resolved"
_Pete_	oops
Z_God	ok :)
Z_God	I'm off here
_Pete_	manually removed the divert
Z_God	will be on later in the eve
_Pete_	the the files from /usr/bin considering that
_Pete_	after that apt got thru
Z_God	can you put the instructions here?
Z_God	or maybe in a bug?
_Pete_	I try to make bug
Z_God	bye guys! have to catch my lessons
Z_God	thanks!
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rzs19	whats the difference between kde-style-qtcurve-trinity and qtcurve-trinity?
rzs19	inside kde-style-qtcurve-trinity we got more than just the docs -> /usr/lib/qt3/plugins/styles/qtcurve.so
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_Pete_	argh, trinity is totally unstable on this
_Pete_	starting from kdm-login screen which is totally screwed
_Pete_	now when tried to restore to xubuntu session it seems to use trinity window manager or something wierd
rzs19	_pete_ also a dualheadsetup?
_Pete_	:)
_Pete_	no
_Pete_	just one monitor
rzs19	a friend said that this happend alos in older kde 3.5.x versions
rzs19	kdm and locking screen got thesame problems, looks strange, but works
_Pete_	yes it worked
rzs19	i something is wrong with the painting, maybe? your not the only one with this problem ;)
rzs19	just write a bug report
rzs19	or i will do, if i have a little more time
_Pete_	then next big problem: on K menu there's System item
_Pete_	when that's selected with mouse the whole barthing in bottom crashes
rzs19	write a bugreport: http://bugs.trinitydesktop.org/
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 584 filed by petriai@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=584 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, K-Menu crashes when System item is tried to select.
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l0ner	!seen MutantTurkey
tbottu	l0ner: MutantTurkey was last seen in #trinity-desktop 11 hours, 54 minutes, and 6 seconds ago: <MutantTurkey> :)
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rzs19	need coffee... tired...
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kion_	hey guys, I'm having real troubles updating to 3.5.13... had a local diversion issue with ksmserver package and had to edit deb file (preinst script) to get it installed by dpkg... after that was able to install kubuntu-default-settings-trinity and kubuntu-desktop-trinity packages. yet there's still a problem: every time I try to start something from trinity distro, it gives me the following error: symbol lookup error: /opt/trinity/lib/libkdeui.so.4
kion_	: undefined symbol
kion_	any ideas how to solve that?
kion_	anyone else having that, actually? or is it me only?
kion_	libkdeui.so.4 (libkdeui.so.4.2.0) resides in kdelibs4c2a-trinity, but it IS installed... I'm confused.
gcsimon	i'm not an expert on this, but can you run "ldd -r <filename>" vs. some application your are trying to run?
kion_	yeah, it shows several undefined symbols
kion_	but I mean... it's just a fresh installation - how could that be? and I have removed ALL kde* kubuntu* trinity* packages I had installed before.
kion_	undefined symbol: _ZN7QObject21objectTreesListObjectEv  (/opt/trinity/lib/libDCOP.so.4)
kion_	undefined symbol: _ZN7QObject18childrenListObjectEv     (/opt/trinity/lib/libDCOP.so.4)
kion_	undefined symbol: _ZN7QObject18childrenListObjectEv     (/opt/trinity/lib/libkdeui.so.4)
kion_	undefined symbol: _ZNK7QObject18childrenListObjectEv    (/opt/trinity/lib/libkdeui.so.4)
kion_	undefined symbol: _ZNK7QObject18childrenListObjectEv    (/opt/trinity/lib/libkdecore.so.4)
gcsimon	"QObject", sound like Qt issue
gcsimon	you could try and reinstall qt3...
gcsimon	but i'm pretty new to "apt" (or ubuntu for that matters), so i would not know how to do that
gcsimon	QObject is definitly part of Qt, so if he cannot find it - something is wrong with your Qt installation
kion_	well sometimes guessing is the right thing :)
kion_	I have just re-installed (some were not installed, actually) all libqt3-* libs and it seems to work fine now
kion_	I wonder though why these libs were not caught by apt if they're required by trinity.
kion_	anyway... thanks :)
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gcsimon	np
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MobileTurkey	wifi is so abysmal here...
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rzs19	bye bye
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KingSphinx	How is it that I always seem to be away when there's a lot of stuff going on? Also, the whole "upgrade to avoid problems" thing? Only creates more trouble than it's actually worth. :/
l0ner	as always
l0ner	uprade fixes old bugs and introduces new ones
l0ner	i's a rule
KingSphinx	By "more problems", I really mean "completely borked my system to where it fails to boot up completely"
l0ner	errr... what distro?
KingSphinx	Had to reinstall stock Ubuntu to get it to a usable state.
l0ner	ubuntu... this explains everyhing...
l0ner	i never had good experiences with ubuntu
KingSphinx	I tried upgrading Kubuntu Trinity 10.10 all the way to 11.10, but it broke trying to upgrade to 11.04
l0ner	aw
l0ner	that must have hurt
KingSphinx	Not that big of a deal, just annoying is all.
l0ner	i noticed that recentely (from 9.10) distro upgrade is pretty broken in ubuntu
l0ner	i know
l0ner	i tried to update my firnds ubuntu (clean one) from 9.10 to 10.4... it broke
l0ner	*friends
l0ner	i convinced him to move to suse
KingSphinx	I've sometimes considered giving Debian a shot, but every live version I've tried seems to just want to pull packages from the internet instead of just installing the packages already there
KingSphinx	(that's a problem for me since my wireless card requires non-free firmware, and Debian doesn't like that)
l0ner	i'm getting feeling that debian don't like anything what doesn't fit with RMS philosophy....
l0ner	free or GTFO
l0ner	and debian pull packages from net to have the latest versions of them
l0ner	i remember having debion on my laptop with closed source wireless drivers for my wifi though
l0ner	but i needed to use some external repos
l0ner	try searching round debian forums
l0ner	they have nice tutorials there
KingSphinx	It's relatively easy to get said firmware working under Ubuntu (install b43-fwcutter, extract firmware from file, then use fwcutter to install firmware) since Ubuntu installs a desktop out-of-box, but Debian's installer on a Debian Live system refuses to install Debian if you can't connect to the internet.
l0ner	can't you use cable connection for installation and then install b43?
l0ner	that's what i'd do
KingSphinx	I don't have an available ethernet connection (neighbor's wifi for internet access, he's okay with it)
l0ner	so it's an argh situation...
KingSphinx	The only distribution to work out-of-box with my wireless is Fedora, and it's only with Fedora 16 that the UUID will finally match everyone else's (1000:1000 vs. the old 500:500)
KingSphinx	15 is still the newest version so far, so... yeah.
l0ner	never liked the UUID system
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tbottu	10raron@vipmail.hu changed the Status on bug 579 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=579 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, Amarok don't start, amarokapp: symbol lookup error
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 585 filed by kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=585 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Notification popups pop up in random locations
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net marked bug 584 as a duplicate of bug 554.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=584 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED DUPLICATE, K-Menu crashes when System item is tried to select.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=554 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, art_render_gradient.c makes kicker and konqueror crash
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l0ner	kb9vqf: Hi Tim!
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l0ner	kb9vqf: I might have a problem with you git repo
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l0ner	!seen MutantTurkey
tbottu	l0ner: MutantTurkey was last seen in #trinity-desktop 18 hours, 30 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <MutantTurkey> :)
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: git is looking good so far!
Z_God	MutantTurkey: I updated the meeting agenda with some things that I think are important
l0ner	MutantTurkey: how did the dock(s) compiling go?
MutantTurkey	Z_God: good work
KingSphinx	Well, I had fun figuring out that installing Kubuntu/Trinity 10.10, then trying to upgrade all the way to 11.10 is a very bad idea...
MutantTurkey	l0ner: I got side tracked, but on a positive note, I have working files for Trinity that have been tested by another person, and just got done building some other modules
l0ner	nice
MutantTurkey	Z_God: looking at the notes now
Z_God	KingSphinx: it's much easier to do a commandline only install & then add Trinity
KingSphinx	Not exactly an option for me since I don't have any ethernet.
Z_God	ah yeah sorry, you told me
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: with the renaming, are you changing anything internally?
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: wifi?
KingSphinx	Wifi only, yeah. Neighbor's cool with it. :P
MutantTurkey	KingSphinx: learn how to manually set it up! :D it's actually quite easy, though I havent seen a good guide around
Z_God	KingSphinx: maybe you should research setting up wifi without a GUI
Z_God	KingSphinx: what kind of protection does your WAP use?
MutantTurkey	iwconfig wlan0 essid "essid name" key "encryption key" channel X
MutantTurkey	sudo dhclient wlan0
MutantTurkey	that's pretty much it on ubuntu
Z_God	that's WEP only though
MutantTurkey	Z_God: good call
MutantTurkey	WPA2?
KingSphinx	None, though I don't have any control over that (though I did ask my neighbor before using it anyway)
l0ner	he mentioned something with b43
Z_God	KingSphinx: then it's easy, almost MutantTurkey's instructions
MutantTurkey	b43 ahhh! actually my realtek isn't doing much better...
KingSphinx	Broadcom B4312 AirForce 54g, I believe
MutantTurkey	should have got the intel centrino wifi adapter instea.d
Z_God	it should all work, maybe you just need to fetch the deb containing the firmware manually
KingSphinx	Didn't know it was Broadcom until I actually tried using it in Linux...
Z_God	once you get wifi to work without a GUI, you already achieved quite a bit I think ;)
KingSphinx	Yeah, I have the proper firmware/.deb, I just need to remember the commands to set said stuff up
l0ner	i've been setting my wifi crom cli quite some time
l0ner	*from
l0ner	it's not that difficult anyway
Z_God	KingSphinx: you can also do it with /etc/network/interfaces
Z_God	read "man interfaces" for that
Z_God	it may be a bit easier
Z_God	and it will also work with WPA
Z_God	you can just comment those entries again when you want to use NetworkManager
Z_God	NetworkManager automatically ignores all interfaces listed in /etc/network/interfaces so it will never conflict either
MutantTurkey	I dont like network manager always :P, when it works though, it's great!
MutantTurkey	Z_God: definitely some good points there on the etherpad
Z_God	MutantTurkey: I hope I'll be able to make it
Z_God	otherwise I hope it'll be ok to discuss those things without me, I know very little about the technical aspects, but I think these things should at least be addressed in some way :)
Z_God	I will be able to give a better indication about whether I can be online when a specific time is clear
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	I'll send an email out later tonight about it
Z_God	ok :)
Z_God	it's midnight here, so I have to sleep now
Z_God	have a nice day all!
l0ner	g'night
rzs19	ola
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 586 filed by waissi@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=586 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, 3.5.13 regression: kio-locate-trinity doesn't show any results in Konqueror
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rzs19	gn8
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kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: So you've seen our cgit?
kb9vqf	:)
kb9vqf	darn, not here
kb9vqf	oh well
kb9vqf	regarding m23: cool!
kb9vqf	maybe if the smaller distros pick up TDE then the major ones will have to look at it eventually :)
kb9vqf	and our renaming project will help there as well by reducing the probability of us stomping on KDE4 libraries
kb9vqf	BTW here is the renaming status: http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/17
kb9vqf	the GIT repos are STILL FROZEN to everyone but me
kb9vqf	I intend to complete the renaming and get the build system back online from GIT before thawing the repos
kb9vqf	still have a few weeks to do it according to the roadmap :)
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 587 filed by kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=587 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, tsak daemon fails on keyboard unplug
Xu_R	kb9vqf: samelian stopped by earlier
kb9vqf	and?
Xu_R	had new cmake files to commit
kb9vqf	ah
Xu_R	but didn't know where to >_>
kb9vqf	GIT is frozen for now
kb9vqf	in fact I made it public but the conversion is not yet 100% complete
Xu_R	I see you renamed much of it :P
kb9vqf	remember I allocated a month for SVN-->GIT conversion
kb9vqf	yes I did
Xu_R	:D
kb9vqf	this is a unique opportunity
kb9vqf	for us to dump quite a bit of the original kde* naming scheme
Xu_R	good time, then :P
kb9vqf	yes
kb9vqf	not done yet though
kb9vqf	and definitely not ready for all the devs to start hammering away at it :-P
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Xu_R	hehe
kb9vqf	you guys are supposed to be fixing bugs in the bugtracker with patches right now BTW ;-)
Xu_R	yes. there seems to be a few patches that have come to the ML as of late :) the 3.5.13 release had quite a bit of attention
kb9vqf	That's a Very Good Thing :))
kb9vqf	other than that this was probably the worst release we've ever had...
kb9vqf	notice that the schedule for 3.5.14 is quite rigid
kb9vqf	I really hated the sloppiness of this relesae
kb9vqf	*release
Xu_R	yea
kb9vqf	we won't be doing THAT again :)
Xu_R	hehe
Xu_R	hopefully not
kb9vqf	BTW the Etherpad's getting some attention again
kb9vqf	I believe I fixed all the bugs
Xu_R	:D
kb9vqf	public pads, etc.
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Xu_R	that's good!
Xu_R	we have a collaboration endpoint again :D
kb9vqf	and I threw up some more pads to keep track of the rename and such
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	in fact, if you want to see something renamed in 3.5.14 throw it up on that pad
Xu_R	sure. but i need to focus on physics, math, programming, and packaging :P
kb9vqf	hehe
kb9vqf	I meant I'd approve or reject it, then handle the rename before the GIT goes live
kb9vqf	the ony rule is that no user-visible app (such as konsole or kpowersave) gets renamed now
kb9vqf	backend libs and apps are fair game
Xu_R	ok
Xu_R	works for me
kb9vqf	if you see any more Etherpad problems just let me knwo
kb9vqf	*know
Xu_R	kk
kb9vqf	we are currently runnning the latest upstream GIT, as v1.1 has some serious issues
Xu_R	I saw you tagged git with versions :P
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	3.5.13 is rather loose
kb9vqf	but it will help in seeing what has changed
Xu_R	hehe, you know, cgit went and generated zip and tarballs for all the tags XD
kb9vqf	(some stuff didn't some straight over from SVN correctly)
kb9vqf	yeah, I see that
kb9vqf	we use submodules heavily, so cgit won't give you everything in that tarball by any stretch of the imaginiation
kb9vqf	*imaginiation
kb9vqf	grr
Xu_R	yea, I figured
kb9vqf	imagination
kb9vqf	see, I can spell, just not t Y pe
Xu_R	;)
kb9vqf	anyway, tell MutantTurkey I said hi
* kb9vqf needs to run again
Xu_R	sure
Xu_R	ok, I'll see you around :)
Xu_R	(hopefully more often now :P)
kb9vqf	and for goodness sake START FIXING BUGS everyone! :))
Xu_R	:)
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KingSphinx	After seeing how relatively rough 3.5.13 is, I'm a bit hesitant about reinstalling it on my Ubuntu partition. :/
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edogaa	Hello
edogaa	I just reinstalled fedora (LE SHOCK)
edogaa	and backedu p my data since it was lazier and faster than repalcing root (had a few dvds around and his data was under 4 gigs)
edogaa	So, now I am usign 64 bit fedora but when I follow the instructions
edogaa	http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity/rpm/f15/trinity-3.5.13/RPMS/noarch/repodata/repomd.xml: [Errno 14] HTTP Error 404 - Not Found : http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/trinity/rpm/f15/trinity-3.5.13/RPMS/noarch/repodata/repomd.xml
edogaa	Trying other mirror.
edogaa	Error: Cannot retrieve repository metadata (repomd.xml) for repository: trinity-3.5.13-f15-noarch. Please verify its path and try again
edogaa	...whoops should've pastbinned that...
edogaa	Anyways...wtf ._.
edogaa	got it working...had to comment out some stuff in that repos thing :/ and then modify the noarch a little..
edogaa	sorry if that was spammish and rantish lol
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 588 filed by petriai@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=588 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Torrent client Vuze doesn't start
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jiangyd	kdevdesigner: symbol lookup error: /opt/trinity/lib/trinity/libkdevdesignerpart.so: undefined symbol: _ZN16QAssistantClientC1ERK7QStringP7QObjectPKc
edogaa	seey a
edogaa	gonna boot into kde3 now
edogaa	or rather TDE
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edogaa	Now, this feels like a real desktop
KingSphinx	You're using Fedora, right?
edogaa	Yes
KingSphinx	I'd have to wait until 16 hits before I could install it without issue :/ 16 will finally switch to the "standard" 1000:1000 UUID
jiangyd	does anyone use kdedevelop-trinity in squeeze?
KingSphinx	And unless there's going to be repos for Fedora 16 as well, there wouldn't really be any incentive for me to make the leap again.
KingSphinx	Oh, just out of curiosity: what's TDE for Fedora like? The "standard" experience or does it have stuff specific to Fedora like the Bluecurve theme?
edogaa	o dpm
edogaa	i don't know?
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KingSphinx	More importantly, is stuff like the KMenu bug present? (Kicker crashing if Settings or System is highlighted)
_Pete_	regarding the issue
_Pete_	is there some easy way to build specific packages if there's patches to bugs?
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 589 filed by nosedapeter@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=589 critical, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Error - 'package trinity-desktop not found'
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drvodka	hi, has anyone had success installing on squeeze/wheezy these last few days?  I tried to do it yesterday or the day before, i put the deb lines in sources.list, but too many packages were missing
drvodka	i read the bugtracker at the time and it seemed like some other people had failed, but others had success
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 590 filed by gamiljydcome@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=590 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, /opt/trinity/lib/trinity/libkdevdesignerpart.so: undefined symbol
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drvodka	oh well nevermind me, i spoke too soon, i just updated and now it seems those packages are there
drvodka	awesome
drvodka	i can't wait to get rid of kde4 ;)
edogaa	does trinity come with kdm?
edogaa	0r something like a display manager?
drvodka	kdm-trinity is showing on my package list
edogaa	ah
edogaa	disabled artsd :D
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drvodka	hah, maybe with these new devs, even arts will work :D
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edogaa	Hmm, if it can be compatible with pulse sure
edogaa	otherwise it just be a bit bothersome, i don't think artsd is necessary? not sure
drvodka	i used to just kill the process, because it would interfere with my alsa programs
edogaa	hey
edogaa	how do I make kdm the default display manager?
drvodka	what distro?  on debian/ubuntu it's probably update-alternatives
drvodka	oh just as you said that
drvodka	it's asking me during the install
drvodka	which display manager i want to use
drvodka	it offered kdm and kdm-trinity so i choose kdm-trinity
drvodka	ok, i'm installed, time to restart X and see what happens
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edogaa	see ya
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edogaa	gonna reboot and test
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drvodka	well, i got some errors, but i'm in kde3 now, thanks guys
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tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 575 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=575 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, Official KDE request to rename kwin
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drvodka	yeah! i solved the couple of minor issues, and now trinity is running smoooth, i click the home icon, and unlike kde4, i'm instantly in the file browser, etc etc :D
drvodka	thanks for doing this port/fork whatever
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drvodka	hey edogaa, did it work ok?
edogaa	hey, skype, pulse and trinity seem not to be making sounds? o.O
edogaa	i think i'm not sure
edogaa	and yes it's working
edogaa	oddly enough one music player, and flash seem to make sound
drvodka	i got the kde startup sounds, and my sound in miro/chome/mplayer is fine, i don't use pulse at all though
edogaa	probably helps a lot :/
edogaa	flash works...
edogaa	skype..wtf :/
edogaa	nope not of the notifications work
drvodka	notifications for kde?
edogaa	yes
drvodka	do you use them?  i think they are arts, so maybe that's what's clashed with your pulse/skype?
edogaa	>_<
drvodka	i just turned them all off and disabled kde sound system now
edogaa	I'll just remove pulse
edogaa	brb
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edogaa	hmm
edogaa	This is pretty nice...though i have no battery monitor...
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Fat-Zer	edogaa: so you won't worry about low battary charge...
edogaa	But then I'll worry about losing all my work!
edogaa	BECASE I FORGOT IT WASN'T CONNECTED
marek77	you can try conky, it's pretty good. and it monitors more than just the battery :-)
Fat-Zer	*sarcasm*
edogaa	I just got batti
edogaa	from the repos.
edogaa	still, one thing I'm liking konsole...
edogaa	I Hated the kde4 konsole lol
Fat-Zer	edogaa: and kpowersame doesn't work
edogaa	there is a kpowerthingy?
Fat-Zer	*save
Fat-Zer	for me it's in kpowersave package
Fat-Zer	but AFAIK it still uses hal
edogaa	ah
Fat-Zer	edogaa: sorry it's not actually part of  trinity... i currently running 3.5.10. and haven't tried it with it
Fat-Zer	*it=trinity
edogaa	Hmm?
Fat-Zer	here is it's homepage: http://powersave.sf.net/
edogaa	jesus
edogaa	2007
Fat-Zer	?
Fat-Zer	2007 was a good year
marek77	what does it matter? it is commonly believed that christian calendar is not correct anyway ;-)
edogaa	meh, i shouldn't be too surprised...consider kde3 hasn't been maintained since 2008 or so
edogaa	at least till trinity came in lol
marek77	k3b...
marek77	[marek@centos6 ~]$ k3b
marek77	KCrash: crashing... crashRecursionCounter = 2
marek77	KCrash: Application Name = k3b path = <unknown> pid = 7607
marek77	lol
marek77	that's k3b from kde4
marek77	oops looks like it's trinity that broke kde4 ;-)
Strangelv	We do need to make suer that we're not going to break owhatever other environments or window managers the user might have
marek77	logged out of trinity > login kde4 > k3b > crash > backtrace:
marek77	[Thread debugging using libthread_db enabled]
marek77	[KCrash handler]
marek77	#6  0x051fe4d1 in QGList::append(void*) ()
marek77	from /usr/lib/qt-3.3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
marek77	#7  0x00fbc3ec in KUniqueApplication::delayRequest(QCString const&, QMemArray<char> const&) () from /opt/trinity/lib/libkdecore.so.4
marek77	#8  0x00fbc4d5 in KUniqueApplication::process(QCString const&, QMemArray<char> const&, QCString&, QMemArray<char>&) () from /opt/trinity/lib/libkdecore.so.4
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marek77	looks like qt3-3 that came with trinity...
marek77	[marek@centos6 ~]$ rpm -qf /usr/lib/qt-3.3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
marek77	qt3-3.3.8d-2.el6.i686
marek77	[marek@centos6 ~]$ rpm -qi qt3-3.3.8d-2.el6.i686
marek77	Name        : qt3                          Relocations: (not relocatable)
marek77	Version     : 3.3.8d                            Vendor: (none)
marek77	Release     : 2.el6                         Build Date: Sat 05 Nov 2011 12:10:29 AM CET
marek77	Install Date: Mon 07 Nov 2011 05:45:50 PM CET      Build Host: centos6-x86.kvm
marek77	Group       : System Environment/Libraries   Source RPM: qt3-3.3.8d-2.el6.src.rpm
marek77	Size        : 10753876                         License: QPL or GPLv2 or GPLv3
marek77	Signature   : (none)
marek77	URL         : http://www.trinitydesktop.org/
marek77	Summary     : The shared library for the Qt 3 GUI toolkit
marek77	Description :
marek77	Qt is a GUI software toolkit which simplifies the task of writing and
marek77	maintaining GUI (Graphical User Interface) applications
marek77	for the X Window System.
marek77	Qt is written in C++ and is fully object-oriented.
marek77	This package contains the shared library needed to run Qt 3
marek77	applications, as well as the README files for Qt 3.
edogaa	hmm
marek77	k3b crashes like this every time....
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rzs19	hello
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marek77	hi
marek77	does someone know how to migrate $HOME/.kde from KDE 3.5 to Trinity?
marek77	can it be done?
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Space_Man	marek77: that is an interesting question
Space_Man	maybe rename .kde and log out / in
Fleck	first logout
Fleck	then rename
marek77	trying right now
rzs19	you could try to rename it to .trinity but no idea if this is enough? "mv ~/.trinity ~/.trinity.bak; cp -a ~/.kde ~/.trinity"
Fleck	make backup :)
marek77	ha! trinity managed to start
rzs19	atm it _should_ work without problems, but what is in the future, if we have to rename all application from k{applicationname} to *wathever*
marek77	why would that be?
rzs19	like kwin...
rzs19	if i read corectly, there is a bug report.
rzs19	some kde devs don't want that trinity use the same application name, like the kwin maintainer.
marek77	hmm. a migration tool ? something with a lot of renaming commands inside (sed? ;-) )
marek77	OTOH, KDE is OSS, and Trinity is a fork, so naming should not be an issue?
rzs19	http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=575
tbottu	04Bug 575: major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, Official KDE request to rename kwin
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marek77	what I'm interested is to migrate my machine from CentOS5 to CentOS6, but don't want KDE4, so I'm looking at Trinity to keep my "KDE3 desktop like" with all the settings, icon bars etc..
marek77	since RedHat decided to upgrade to KDE4 in RHEL6, I'm stuck with CentOS5.x
rzs19	the problem is, there is a window manager with the name twin
rzs19	yeah naming shoulkdnt be a problem, but you see, it is ... :(
rzs19	there are tons of application and how would they be called? questions over questions
rzs19	_K_onqueror, amaro_k_, _K_onsole ...
marek77	well, let's say the binary will be renamed to tWhatever, nothing imposes also rename of config files in ~/.trinity does it?
marek77	the "K" naming is a bit silly, imho ;-)
rzs19	yep they need to finde some new cool names.
l0ner	well, ranaming will take some time
l0ner	*renaming
rzs19	yep it would, renaming the python bindings, could break many scripts
rzs19	renaming could make some troubles...
l0ner	but at some point it will be necessary, since trinity apps aren't the same apps KDE4 have, and yet, they have the same name
l0ner	Kmail from trinity isn't Kmail from KDE4
l0ner	2 apps with same name, it will create confusion at some point
marek77	isn't versioning enough? Firefox 3.6 is not the same app as Firefox 7.0
l0ner	yes, thats true
l0ner	but it is still forefox
l0ner	*firefox
marek77	one can argue that Trinity is KDE3.5 (++)
marek77	which has the same name as KDE(4)
marek77	in the beginning of KDE4 one could have both installed side by side even
l0ner	that's true too
l0ner	but in this case the version number is part of the name
marek77	it wasn't for kwin, konsole, ...
l0ner	when it isn't you'll get in the repo two apps with the same name and different versions, and normal user will probably choose the one with higher version, because it's newer
marek77	true
l0ner	that's why some things should be renamed
l0ner	even adding -trinity after name would work
marek77	with lots of strange and surely annoying side effects... :-(
l0ner	but those can be removed with time
l0ner	I look at current trinity as some beta-version
l0ner	there are many things that should work, worked in the past, but with time broke
l0ner	and should be fixed
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thistle_	I installed trinity 3.5.13 from the ubuntu repos on my 11.10 install
thistle_	every time I mouse over the settings or system menu item, the kde panel dies
thistle_	there is no crash info that I can fine with a quick look
KingSphinx	Start Kicker from terminal, then recreate the crash; should give you info on what caused it
thistle_	All of the other menu items open, no problem
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thistle_	kicker: art_render_gradient.c:337: art_render_gradient_linear_render_8: Assertion `(stops[ix-1].offset <= offset_fraction + 1e-6) || ((stops[ix].offset > (1.0 - 1e-6)) && (offset_fraction < 1e-6 ))' failed.
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l0ner	there was bug about this filled some time ago
MobileTurkey	l0ner: hey
MobileTurkey	still having trouble with qt3?
l0ner	hey
Space_Man	http://bugs.trinitydesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=554 "art_render_gradient.c makes kicker and konqueror crash"
tbottu	04Bug 554: normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, art_render_gradient.c makes kicker and konqueror crash
l0ner	yep
l0ner	i sent mail to maillist
MobileTurkey	do you have a log? also why not use the PKGBUILD?
l0ner	well I wanted to do it manually
l0ner	but I'm beginning to think about it
MobileTurkey	pkgbuilds are your friend
MobileTurkey	you are still compiling it, it justtakes out the hassle.
MobileTurkey	trust  me :P
MobileTurkey	trying to get the trinity wiki page on archinux.org fixed up
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l0ner	well the page was pretty confusional
MobileTurkey	it was ridiculous
MobileTurkey	to much crap
l0ner	anyway I'm compiling qt3 right now, If I get the same error i'll use pkgbuild
l0ner	yeah, I read it like 3 times and still was like wtf!?
MobileTurkey	wtf wtf wtf
MobileTurkey	David wrote it like a logbook, a documentary, rather than a wiki page
l0ner	trinity wiki page on building it manually misses some things too
MobileTurkey	I am just going with PKGBUILDS now.
MobileTurkey	I need to get binaryhosting space for the packages
MobileTurkey	and Kaitocracy won't email me back and I've had no reply from david
l0ner	can't you use tde-packaging in git for packages?
MobileTurkey	yes
MobileTurkey	I need to upload it asap
MobileTurkey	though I made a seperate folder for the release.
MobileTurkey	for 3.5.13
MobileTurkey	then the master/ will be renamed to git once we get git packages
MobileTurkey	make sense?
MobileTurkey	kb9vqf: ping
l0ner	yes
MobileTurkey	also right now I am pulling entirely from uidaho
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rzs19	cu later
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thistle_	thanks.  The patched libart works
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 591 filed by inukaze.otaku@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=591 critical, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Kicker fails
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samelian	kb9vqf: hello
kb9vqf	Hi!
kb9vqf	Long time no see... :)
samelian	hehe, busy
samelian	i need commit rights to git repo
samelian	I sent you my ssh public key
Z_God	was this already posted here? http://dot.kde.org/2011/11/08/trinity-project-keeping-35-alive
samelian	Z_God: yes, it was
Z_God	ok :)
kb9vqf	samelian: The GIT repostory is not yet open for business
samelian	aha
kb9vqf	also, I don't allow SSH access to any of my machines for a variety of reasons ;-)
kb9vqf	this was reinforced by the recent kernel.org hacking problem
samelian	but how we will have access to git?
kb9vqf	HTTP auth
samelian	aha, ok
samelian	svn will not be used for development, right?
kb9vqf	correct
samelian	i saw that is frozen
kb9vqf	yes
Z_God	wouldn't it be possible to have a bridge between git & svn?
kb9vqf	git svn
Z_God	so that patches going into git are also applied to the svn tree
kb9vqf	it's not quite that easy...
Z_God	ok
samelian	ok, at this moment I want to continue cmake port, but I need access to repos
kb9vqf	when we moved to GIT I "exploded" the tree into small repositories, one for each library and application
Z_God	it was cool to have you in KDE's SVN stats though ;)
samelian	to upate my local sources
kb9vqf	ah, ok
samelian	update*
kb9vqf	let them stabilize a bit first, otherwise we'll have one nasty merge :-/
kb9vqf	I'm still in there checking everything out and fixing problems in rather large batches
samelian	aha
kb9vqf	*migration problems, NOT bugs :))
samelian	I will try to update my sources from latest tarballs
kb9vqf	you'll stil run into merge problems
kb9vqf	folders were renamed, etc.
Z_God	it seems there are some problems with the 3.5.13 packages for lucid actually
kb9vqf	there is anonymous GIT access if you really want to proceed knowing you may have merge problems
Z_God	some people were asked for the older PPAs so they could get things running
Z_God	asking*
kb9vqf	I did keep the old 3.5.12 PPA
Z_God	unfortunately, I have a bandwidth cap, so I can't easily download everything to test it
kb9vqf	just remove the -v3.5.13 from the sources.list files
samelian	kb9vqf: anonymous should be enough for now
samelian	you can tell how to access it?
kb9vqf	Z_God: Please encourage them to file bug reports
kb9vqf	we want to fix the problems for 3.5.14
Z_God	kb9vqf: I did!
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kb9vqf	ok :)
Z_God	and there have been quite a few reports
* kb9vqf noticed that
kb9vqf	that's a good thing
Z_God	some people couldn't even get a basic desktop working without crashes
kb9vqf	I don't understand that personally
Z_God	somehow there were symbol errors
kb9vqf	sounds like mixed 3.5.12 and 3.5.13 packages
kb9vqf	samelian: git clone http://scm.trinitydesktop.org/scm/git/tde
kb9vqf	git submodule init
samelian	thx
kb9vqf	git submodule update
kb9vqf	that will give you *everything*
Z_God	that's still a bug though
kb9vqf	Z_God: A packaging bug
Z_God	yep
kb9vqf	samelian: http://scm.trinitydesktop.org/scm/ will show you all the repositories
kb9vqf	you don't have to pull everything if you don't want to
l0ner	kb9vqf: is it normal that command "git clone http://scm.trinitydesktop.org/scm/git/tqtinterface" don't pulls content of subdirs?
samelian	I will need them anyway
kb9vqf	l0ner: This is GIT's weakest point
kb9vqf	git submodule init
kb9vqf	git submodule update
kb9vqf	that will give you everything
l0ner	yep, worked
kb9vqf	newer versions of GIT try to pull submodules automatically
l0ner	it asks me for pass
l0ner	but it works of o leave it empty
kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	there is a LOT of automation on this end to work around this very weak part of GIT
kb9vqf	samelian: I recommend going to your main tde checkout directory (where you pulled http://scm.trinitydesktop.org/scm/git/tde) and running ./scripts/switch_all_submodules_to_head_and_clean
kb9vqf	actually, anyone who tries to pull the entire repository should do that
samelian	ok
kb9vqf	that will clear any username/password errors and populate all submodules
kb9vqf	SVN was much, much better here
kb9vqf	but GIT has its own advantages I guess
l0ner	well, up till now i used only svn
samelian	I was very happy with svn :)
kb9vqf	as was I
l0ner	so, why move to git?
kb9vqf	popular demand
kb9vqf	SVn is perceived as outdated, etc.
kb9vqf	KDE itself is trying to shut down their SVN server
samelian	is not trendy anymore :)
kb9vqf	and my biggest complaint: SVN is SLOOOWWWW
l0ner	well... so it is kde3.5/trinity for kde4 devs and fanboys
Z_God	git has many advantages over svn it seems
kb9vqf	yes it does
Z_God	so I understand people moving
kb9vqf	it just falls down completely with submodules (SVN externals)
Z_God	but git is mainly useful when you want to branch a lot
Z_God	if you have only a single branch that everybody works on, svn is fine
l0ner	well... I think trin wiki needs some updating
l0ner	in that field
kb9vqf	yes it does :)
kb9vqf	The move is not complete
kb9vqf	you guys are accessing alpha quality stuff with no docs at this point
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kb9vqf	Z_God: The biggest advantage of GIT for me is that it doesn't tie up my connection constantly for basic commits
l0ner	oh, and I wrote mail about my problems with qt3 compilation if you hadn't noticed
kb9vqf	SVn is quite bandwidth heavy, and a single glitch can cause a MESS
Z_God	kb9vqf: I didn't know about this :)
kb9vqf	Well, I noticed it more near the end
kb9vqf	svn mv wasn't working
kb9vqf	I had to try and try to get even one mv command to commit correctly
kb9vqf	once you hit a magic number of files things start timing out
Z_God	sounds like a crappy link as well
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kb9vqf	not on my end
Z_God	but I mainly used subversion locally
l0ner	oh, I remember trying to pull trinity form svn somthing like 40 times becaus it was giving me some errors on every attempt ...
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kb9vqf	right
kb9vqf	KDE had a garbage link/server
Z_God	that's probably not smth git would have solved then...
kb9vqf	SVN is just not designed for a project of this size
kb9vqf	don't get me started on the SVN merge problems
kb9vqf	we didn't see them because we had two committers
kb9vqf	if I would have added more...well...
* kb9vqf shudders
kb9vqf	I like the distributed aspect of GIT
* kb9vqf hates single points of failure
Z_God	I never had big merge issues with svn
Z_God	but you need to do up first then ci
Z_God	otherwise it does tend to break
kb9vqf	right
Z_God	but I think GIT is much better with this
kb9vqf	and if the up breaks your local copy for any reason...*poof*
Z_God	I guess it just uses patch for this
kb9vqf	there goes all your work
samelian	kb9vqf: so, what's next? :)
Z_God	that's scary I never saw that
samelian	I mean, roadmap
Z_God	svn would create backups for me then
kb9vqf	Z_God: Not for me--odd
kb9vqf	oh well
kb9vqf	samelian: Meeting Nov. 15 AFAIK
kb9vqf	Bug fixing is top priority as usual
samelian	aha
kb9vqf	http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/15
samelian	hmm, I think I have no more access to etherpad
kb9vqf	samelian: Request an account
samelian	ok
kb9vqf	I'll approve it right now :)
samelian	kb9vqf: i did
kb9vqf	approved
samelian	kb9vqf: i'm in, thx
kb9vqf	np
l0ner	i just compiled qt3 and now I'm trying to compile tqtinterface, but cmake complains about missing moc
l0ner	damn
kb9vqf	cmake needs to have the Qt3 directory passed to it as a -D flag
kb9vqf	it's not as "smart" as Autotools was
samelian	or QTDIR environment variable
samelian	I preffer to not be too agressive to detect things
l0ner	-DQTDIR=/opt/qt3 -DQT_PREFIX_DIR=/opt/qt3
kb9vqf	which is fine, that's why I put "smart" in quotes ;-)
samelian	hehe
kb9vqf	Does moc need to be on the $PATH?
samelian	latest patches to cmake was a little to agressive for my taste
l0ner	still complains
kb9vqf	samelian: My patches?
samelian	I think by another one
kb9vqf	oh, ok
kb9vqf	It might be a good idea to set CMake policy on the Etherpad
samelian	yes
kb9vqf	we can work on it before the meeting and approve/reject it
samelian	when I'm developing e cmake test I assume that the system is pretty standard and sane
samelian	for non-standard systems packagers have variables, to point correct paths
kb9vqf	Well, start a pad and put down your CMake philosophy :)
samelian	ok :)
kb9vqf	we can comment on it
kb9vqf	etc.
l0ner	anyway what I do and what cmake throws at me: http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/504760/
samelian	l0ner: you really have moc in /opt/qt3/bin?
l0ner	yep
l0ner	wait I'll check $PATH
samelian	cmake using absolute paths, I guess
samelian	l0ner: show me your FindTQt.cmake
l0ner	$PATH if fine
l0ner	samelian: http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/504764/
Z_God	kb9vqf: were you able to read the german article about trinity at some point?
kb9vqf	Z_God: You are Julius, right?
Z_God	yep
kb9vqf	yes I did
kb9vqf	real nasty
kb9vqf	I put several paragraphs on our meeting etherpad as a result :-P
l0ner	why?
Z_God	it seems good that people are taking a look at the project like that though
Z_God	and the code
samelian	l0ner: please show me ConfigureChecks.cmake of tqtinterface
kb9vqf	good?
l0ner	now
Z_God	I'm sure that such things can either be solved with a fix or a good motivation
Z_God	fixed*
kb9vqf	What I saw was a bunch of attacks on the fact that Trinity doesn't have a fancy graphical effects stack :-/
samelian	haha
Z_God	yes, the biggest part of the article is silly
Z_God	but there are some valid remarks in there
kb9vqf	what he doesn't get is that we don't WANT a stack like that :)
l0ner	samelian: http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/504767/
samelian	yes, actually this is ideea of trinity
kb9vqf	which remarks? About binary compatibility?
Z_God	yes
kb9vqf	to me that's a versioning nit
kb9vqf	Firefox breaks comatibility with each new release
Z_God	but it prevents people from adopting now
kb9vqf	what he is taking issue with is our version numbering system
Z_God	and this is something that people expect
kb9vqf	and I agree that it is time to change our versioning system
l0ner	kb9vqf: could you give me etherpad access? I'd like to read this...
kb9vqf	l0ner: It should be public :-/
Z_God	if you do not keep binary compatibility, it's fine with me, but I think it's important that you have good reasons to break it
Z_God	and those things should be explained on the trinity site as well
kb9vqf	l0ner: http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/15
samelian	l0ner: for unknown reason, your cmake checks try to find moc-qt3, instead moc
samelian	try to replace moc-qt3 with moc
kb9vqf	Z_God: If we keep binary compatibility we will not be able to decouple from KDE 3.5.10 and Qt 3.3.8b
kb9vqf	and the project WILL die as a result
Z_God	ok, that seems a valid reason
kb9vqf	Unfortunately the needed changes are extensive and could easily take a few years to complete (!)
Z_God	but I can understand it that people were expecting a binary compatible version
l0ner	samelian: how? in ConfigureChecks.cmake?
kb9vqf	so I took the lesser of two evils and have been releasing binary incomatible versions
samelian	l0ner: yes
kb9vqf	basically each new release has more of the conversion done
Z_God	and I understand that Ilya is not so quick in switching, because it means loads of recompiling for him then
samelian	actually who cares about binary compatibility?
samelian	and for what reason?
Z_God	distros care
kb9vqf	for ease in packaging
Z_God	at least non-source based distros
kb9vqf	I can see their point of view
samelian	just recompile it and that's all
kb9vqf	that has been my approach :)
kb9vqf	distros don't like to do that though
Z_God	but I think it's important this is in the release notes at least
kb9vqf	that binary compatibility is broken?
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	sounds reasonabe
kb9vqf	*reasonable
Z_God	that binary compatibility is broken to move away from Qt3
kb9vqf	well, to move away from the old versions of Qt3 at any rate
Z_God	and how people are expected to deal with each trinity release
kb9vqf	I have problems with not being allowed to break binary compat for a few reasons
Z_God	in debian's case, every new package version that is binary incompatible get an increased integer added to the package *name*
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kb9vqf	Primary is that it completely ties my hands as far as adding new libraries to do things
lnr	samelian: no change
kb9vqf	which means that Trinity would not be able to stay up to date with new technologies
kb9vqf	as an example, if I had to keep binary compat 3.5.13 would not have the monitor and display tool
samelian	lnr: same error? show me cmakechecks again
lnr	same
Z_God	kb9vqf: why couldn't that be done?
kb9vqf	Because I had to change the underlying libkrandr library API
kb9vqf	to add the new features
Z_God	I don't get this example, because I don't think it requires changes the existing ABI of kdelibs
lnr	samelian: http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/504769
Z_God	but you could add features without changing the existing ABI
kb9vqf	changes to APIs propagate to ABIs
kb9vqf	AFAIK
Z_God	only adding new ones
kb9vqf	actually if constructors are changed the ABI breaks
kb9vqf	or data members
Z_God	sure
Z_God	but you could leave the existing constructors intact
kb9vqf	well, data members were changed and added to track the monitor configuration objects
Z_God	and only add new ones for the new features
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Z_God	this is what everybody else does at least
kb9vqf	that leads to unmaintainable code very quickly
Z_God	ok
kb9vqf	hacks on top of hacks on top of nasty hacks
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kb9vqf	I've had to rewrite code from KDE3.5.10 that was written that way
kb9vqf	and now I know why
Z_God	maybe this is the reason why trinity could be handled till now with relatively few devs
Z_God	but it is a big shift for the code
kb9vqf	it also explains KDE4's bugginess
Z_God	so we should write these things down
Z_God	right now, it confuses people
kb9vqf	yes, probably
kb9vqf	do you mind starting a new pad?
kb9vqf	I'm still pretty busy ATM
Z_God	not really
Z_God	also busy, but I will do my best
kb9vqf	ok, thanks :)
kb9vqf	My mentality is that I refuse to sacrifice functionality, code readability, and introduce bugs just to keep ABI compatibility with something that was probably broken to begin with (hence the need for the ABI change)
kb9vqf	if we need to release as 3.6, 3.7, 3.8 etc then we shall do so
samelian	l0ner: try -DMOC_EXECUTABLE=/opt/qt3/bin/moc
l0ner	ok
samelian	is not ideal, but should work
kb9vqf	and this ABI compat requirement probably explains why large projects tend to crash a LOT
l0ner	worked
samelian	ok
samelian	I think cmake files was changed in my absence :)
samelian	I will review it
kb9vqf	samelian: Feel free to weigh in on the ABI compat pad when it is up :)
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 592 filed by f.couperin@online.fr.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=592 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Menu panels may be too small to display all desktop entries
l0ner	samelian: ok, have fun
samelian	kb9vqf: I don't care about binary compatibility, I suggest you to not waste too much time with it
kb9vqf	that is my thought as well
kb9vqf	but this particular issue will keep nipping at our heels until it is addressed
samelian	I can't see any sense to update trinity, but using old applications
l0ner	GL/gl.h is part of?
samelian	opengl, i guess
samelian	or I did not undestood your question :)
l0ner	since make complains about it missing, I'm trying to figure out what deps I am missing
samelian	aha, i see
samelian	for gl install opengl development files
samelian	I think is mesa, actually, not sure
l0ner	from what I understood arch autoinstalls them
l0ner	well, theoretically i have mesa installed
l0ner	i'll try to reinstall and see what happens
samelian	including dev files?
l0ner	should be
Z_God	kb9vqf: :)
samelian	in my system is /usr/lib/opengl/xorg-x11/include/gl.h
kb9vqf	Hey, it's a collaborative tool, right? ;-)
kb9vqf	we can have an entire argument on there
l0ner	since in arch -dev packages don't exist, I assume they are included in std packages
Z_God	maybe we should also mention the GPL and only caring about FREE software :)
kb9vqf	yeah
Z_God	I think the FSF could appreciate that
samelian	actually why we care about opinions of people who don't use trinity? :)
Z_God	kb9vqf: I don't think you need to create a completely new library
Z_God	libc also supports multiple ABIs within one lib
kb9vqf	If I'm not allowed to change the constructors or data members what choice do I really have?
Z_God	add new constructors
samelian	will become a really mess
Z_God	having multiple constructors for one object is possible right?
Z_God	true
kb9vqf	but adding a constructor breaks ABI compat
Z_God	but I'm just responding on the multiple libs things, it seems a but crazy
Z_God	really?
kb9vqf	AFAIK
kb9vqf	constructors and destructors are special
kb9vqf	something about vtable entries
Z_God	that would be crazy
samelian	even adding a simple method break abi
samelian	the size of object is changing, I guess
kb9vqf	yes, and the vtable is chifting
kb9vqf	*shifting
kb9vqf	constructors and desructors are at the beginning of the table
kb9vqf	so they can shift the entire table
kb9vqf	it becomes a big problem if classes inherit from the base class that has been changed
samelian	the app wil crash even if half of table is shifted
kb9vqf	sometimes
kb9vqf	only on access to the shifted half
samelian	yes
Z_God	seems C++ is indeed quite weak for binary compatibility
samelian	but an unused method is useless, right? :)
kb9vqf	data members are located at the end of the table, so typically that is where the crash happens
* Xu_R wishes he could punch Ilya for his reply right now
l0ner	kb9vqf: I found arts inside tdemultimedia, what is it?
* Xu_R notes that that was random, but I needed to vent. >_>
Z_God	Xu_R: I think it would be good to involve Ilya in this discussion
kb9vqf	now we do need to be careful, as most of these bugs are only present when inheritance is used
samelian	arts is sound server of kde
samelian	arts must die :)
l0ner	i know what is arts
l0ner	samelian: i want to be the one who kills it
samelian	hehe
l0ner	i wonder what arts does in tdemultimedia
samelian	maybe is a plugin for something, who knows...
Z_God	ok, now my turn: What's wrong with aRts? :)
l0ner	I'd like to see trinity dropping arts for something more modern... maybe pulse? but It will take some time
l0ner	it's old
Z_God	there's a lot of stuff that's old ;)
Z_God	l0ner: pulse does less than arts
samelian	in my opinion, tde should use directly ALSA
Xu_R	Z_God: he's already on the mindset that he does not want to abandon KDE3 for trinity
samelian	i never used arts for other task than sound notifications
Z_God	ALSA cannot handle all the formats that aRts can handle
l0ner	nah, you need to use some soundmixer, otherwise you'll end like me, it is ot amarok playing sound, or audacity playing it
Xu_R	which is why he is not packaging or anything. He even is trying to convince factory developers to maintain GNOME2 (?!?!)
Z_God	l0ner: that part ALSA can do
l0ner	alsamixer
l0ner	wich is a soundmixer itself
Xu_R	on his thought that the number of packages determine quality (...)
kb9vqf	l0ner: Trinity can use pulse
samelian	is not task of kde to play different formats
Xu_R	anyway, I'll stop on that.
kb9vqf	arts is sort of a basic audio layer that can interface to multiple backends
kb9vqf	you don't NEED to use it if you don't want to
Z_God	Xu_R: we've been discussing the binary compatibility thing here, this makes it hard for people like Ilya to switch to trinity
Z_God	suse likely has multiple compontents that are intertwined deeply with KDE 3.5
l0ner	kb9vqf: i know, but not in the way i have in mind, right now arts mixes whatever it gets from trinity and send it to puls wich mixes other things
Xu_R	Z_God: actually, no. if we made YaST2-Qt3 backend use TQT, that would be it.
Xu_R	Z_God: it's all a matter of recompilation in the end.
Z_God	samelian: even the sound effects included have different formats, something needs to handle that
Z_God	Xu_R: true, but Ilya doesn't feel like doing that ;)
Xu_R	which is why I have to handle it >_>
Z_God	sure but it's quite a bit of work obviously
l0ner	wait, so arts is not only the audio mixer, but it's audiomixer and sound play system?
samelian	Z_God: this is not the problem of application which need to play something?
Z_God	it's your choice to go for that & his to go the easy route, which imo is unstandable
Z_God	samelian: no, this is the problem that aRts was solving for all the apps
Z_God	they can just throw sounds files at arts and let arts play them
l0ner	so arts is a decoder too
Z_God	whatever the format
l0ner	something like gstreamer?
Z_God	l0ner: arts depends on the normal decoding libs for that
Z_God	l0ner: kinda
l0ner	hmmm...
l0ner	add to arts (modern) features that pulse have
l0ner	like volume control for each app and so on...
Z_God	it seems better to replace arts at some point
l0ner	and trinity won't have nedd to use pulse
Z_God	but it is not that easy
samelian	arts is not anymore updated, for long time
samelian	was abandoned by author because became a mess
l0ner	since replacing arts would mean creating new soundmixer and new decoding framework
l0ner	even kde4 uses something else now...
l0ner	since it is a mess and was abandoned even by author, replacing it at some point will be necessary
kb9vqf	l0ner: If you disable the sound system entirely I believe individual Trinity apps will talk to ALSA/Pulse directly
kb9vqf	though I have never tried it :)
samelian	nope, if you disable arts, you will loosing audio notifications
kb9vqf	Pulse still causes a lot of problems on my systems
kb9vqf	ok
samelian	I think we need to build a new notification system
kb9vqf	Well, that's kind of low priority ATM
l0ner	i thought about it too
kb9vqf	Z_God: OK, my arguments are on the Etherpad
kb9vqf	feel free to pick them apart
Z_God	kb9vqf: great :)
l0ner	imho priority right now should be getting to work things taht are not working
l0ner	replacing hal and so on
l0ner	after that you can begin to think about modernizations
l0ner	i might have some ideas for trinity, but they are only ideas
kb9vqf	ideas are great!
kb9vqf	they go in the bug tracker as wishlist items :)
Z_God	hal works for me ;)
l0ner	but not for me, hal is obsolete, distros dropped it, and it should be replaced
Z_God	Alexander Julliard from Wine was also complaining when distros were suddenly dropping hal btw
l0ner	i had problems getting trinity to work on gentoo because of hal
Z_God	because it didn't make sense to replace it again with udisks or smth like that
l0ner	well, hal was working, but had issues
kb9vqf	HAL would have been replaced a long time ago if there was a clear, fully functioning, stable replacement
kb9vqf	As it stands now Trinity has to absorb a good chunk of the old HAL functionality, which will take a while
l0ner	I know, You've explained it to me some time ago
kb9vqf	(NOT the HAL code, just its functionality)
kb9vqf	ok
* kb9vqf can never keep people straight :)
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l0ner	:)
l0ner	there are many things to be done in trinity it seems
l0ner	while kde3.5 wasn't maintained many things broke
kb9vqf	yep
kb9vqf	Linux is changing too fast right now... :)(
kb9vqf	Z_God: I added a section on vtables
kb9vqf	so maybe the problem is clearer now
Z_God	kb9vqf: thanks, I'll read it a bit later
kb9vqf	ok
kb9vqf	like I said, feel free to blast holes in my comments :)
Z_God	I guess I can't, but maybe other people will ;)
Z_God	anyhow it's good also these issues are addressed now when there'll be another release :)
l0ner	arts cmake complaining: http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/504810/
samelian	l0ner: seems that libltdl directory was moved or removed
l0ner	i commented out line about libltdl and cmake shut up
l0ner	but i got this while compiling: don't know if it's related: http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/504813/
l0ner	samelian: about libltdl: "A system independent dlopen wrapper for GNU libtool" - take out from my package manager
samelian	yes, it is related
samelian	libltdl was part of trinity
samelian	not sure why missing now
l0ner	it's not present in git tree, nor it svn
l0ner	*in
samelian	it is present in my local tree
samelian	ask Tim why it was removed
l0ner	kb9vqf: ping
l0ner	kb9vqf: libltdl directory not present in arts (git), needed for compiling
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rzs19	ola
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rzs19	hi MutantTurkey
MutantTurkey	hey :D
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 593 filed by f.couperin@online.fr.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=593 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, [kscreensaver-xsavers-extra-trinity] conflicts with electricsheep
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Space_Man	electricsheep?
Space_Man	is a social screen saver
MutantTurkey	wop woop
MutantTurkey	http://lwn.net/Articles/466287/
MutantTurkey	got an LWN article :)
MutantTurkey	(or at least a small bit on lwn)
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Z_God	I added a bit more text: http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/19
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 594 filed by office@klepp.biz.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=594 critical, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, konqueror does not save site certificates
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rzs19	who is using dolphin/d3lphin and why?
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 595 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=595 blocker, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Digikam 3.5.13 won't build without patches
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 596 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=596 blocker, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Gwenview 3.5.13 will not build without jpeg patches
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 597 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=597 blocker, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kdebindings 3.5.13 will not build without numerous patches
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 598 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=598 major, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kdenetwork will not build on Slackware with wifi support
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 599 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=599 major, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kdepim cmake files incorrectly install header files into the incorrect location
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 600 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=600 major, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kdegraphics cmake files incorrectly install header files into the incorrect location
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 601 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=601 critical, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kdesdk will not build without patch
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 602 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=602 critical, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kipi-plugins 3.5.13 will not build without jpeg patches
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 603 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=603 critical, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, koffice 3.5.13 will not build without patch
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KingSphinx	Any idea if there's plans for Trinity repos for Fedora 16?
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 604 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=604 blocker, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, kdevelop 3.5.13 will not build without patches
Space_Man	KingSphinx: has Fedora 16 just been released?
Space_Man	I think I read something about another release on slashdot
Space_Man	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/installation.php#redhat
KingSphinx	Fedora 16 was released today, yes. I'm thinking of hopping back to it, just to see what's different.
Space_Man	For Fedora 16 (v3.5.13)
KingSphinx	Yay! That was quick!
Space_Man	it appears there are binaries avaivable
KingSphinx	32 or 64-bit?
Space_Man	looks like the f16 dirs are missing
Space_Man	maybe you need wait for the mirrors to update :P
Space_Man	there are some details here http://mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/trinity/rpm/
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KingSphinx	At least there's a live CD (albiet based on F15) that'll give me a good idea of what Fedora/Trinity is like.
kb9vqf	Mirrors will take 24 hours....I was just informed of the f16 binaries an hour ago
kb9vqf	samelian, MutantTurkey, Xu_R: Looks like we kind of got spammed a bit with bugs
kb9vqf	Can you guys do some triage?
kb9vqf	Also remember that some of the nastier bugs should be fixed via patches while the GIT is frozen
kb9vqf	*patches uploaded to the bug reports
MutantTurkey	will those packages be pushed as binaries?
MutantTurkey	also i'll start looking
rzs19	how can i make a logout with dcop and lock the scree nwith dcop?
rzs19	dcop kmserver logout?
rzs19	i want the same features like over the k... ähm trinity menue
kb9vqf	run kdcop
kb9vqf	you can explore all of the available DCOP signals/slots from there
rzs19	perfect :D thx
kb9vqf	np
rzs19	timpedia? :)
rzs19	but for today, i will go to bed, wish everyone a good night :)
rzs19	bye
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: we got mentioned on LWN
kb9vqf	saw that!
KingSphinx	LWN?
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MutantTurkey	Linux News. It's the best
MutantTurkey	http://lwn.net/
MutantTurkey	linux weekly news I think
kb9vqf	Also noticed how the KDE3<-->KDE4 flame war instantly ignited
MutantTurkey	BUT not that badly.
MutantTurkey	Also people saying "the power of FOSS"
MutantTurkey	and the dot.kde.org article was very nice
KingSphinx	I don't see anything other than 15 Years of KDE... was it mentioned in there somewhere?
kb9vqf	it is separate
kb9vqf	and yes, I think (parts?) of the two dev teams are perfectly fine with the other's existence
KingSphinx	Oop, found it
MutantTurkey	looks like Vuze is bugging out with kgtk/qt engine
kb9vqf	yeah :-/
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: its the fanboys not the devels
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: maybe I'll just put it on the blocklist
MutantTurkey	for kgtk
MutantTurkey	if thats the problem
kb9vqf	probably is...
MutantTurkey	I dont fancy dealing with Vuze, which means Java, which means all hell on earth.
kb9vqf	which is probably why it's crashing
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: At least one of the KDE4 devs still has a serious grudge against us
KingSphinx	Wait, seriously?
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: who?
kb9vqf	http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2011/11/the-grass-has-always-been-greener-on-the-other-side-of-the-fence/
kb9vqf	And my response is on http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/15
MutantTurkey	oh yeah I saw that
MutantTurkey	is the etherpad public now?
kb9vqf	should be
MutantTurkey	okay cool
kb9vqf	you do have to follow the instructions on the top of each new pad to make it work though ;-)
kb9vqf	(follow them once for each new pad that is)
kb9vqf	we can still keep pads private to the team if desired
kb9vqf	*certain pads
MutantTurkey	seems like the meeting page is going well
MutantTurkey	I will write an announcment tomorrow (said that yesterday LOL) about it
MutantTurkey	15th probably
kb9vqf	15th
MutantTurkey	time?
kb9vqf	we do need to set the time
MutantTurkey	nes we do
MutantTurkey	It is a large concer.
kb9vqf	maybe a quick poll on the pad
kb9vqf	not sure, don't want to deal with it :))
MutantTurkey	meh I feel like response will be crappy. I think just aiming for early in the day (2PM) EST
kb9vqf	Remember we have people from Eastern Europe here
MutantTurkey	that is why
kb9vqf	so don't put it at their midnight :)
kb9vqf	ok
MutantTurkey	germany is 6 hours ahead.
MutantTurkey	I mean, it was either midnight or 3am...
kb9vqf	as long as you are considering that I'll leave it up to you
kb9vqf	and yes, response to our meetings tends to be lousy
MutantTurkey	I've asked robert to run the meeting however
kb9vqf	Good
kb9vqf	was going to do that just now :-P
MutantTurkey	I dont know how to work the bot
kb9vqf	it's his bot so he should do it
kb9vqf	:)
MutantTurkey	I am hoping that we get a good turnout
MutantTurkey	maybe drive up some developeres and such
kb9vqf	would be nice
MutantTurkey	though our packagers seem to be taking off
kb9vqf	honestly our efforts should be focussed on 1.) Fixing bugs and 2.) Getting better integration in GTK/GTK3/Qt4
MutantTurkey	I think a google based survey may be useful
kb9vqf	go for it--just remember that those who use third party tools have the responsibility of copying any data from them onto our servers ;-)
MutantTurkey	yep
MutantTurkey	how is git going?
kb9vqf	pretty well
MutantTurkey	also archlinux binaries... We need to figure out where they are going
kb9vqf	It's not so much the repositories themselves that need work, it's the entire build system, etc.
kb9vqf	to fix everything efficiently I need the exclusive lock on the repos ATM
MutantTurkey	understood
kb9vqf	I'll leave Arch up to those who have even booted it before :-P
MutantTurkey	I have binaries ready
kb9vqf	ah, cool
MutantTurkey	I just need server space
kb9vqf	no problem there
kb9vqf	send me a link to the tarball
kb9vqf	that contains your entire repository as you want it deployed
MutantTurkey	Ok tarball the entire tarballs?
kb9vqf	Basically you will have a directory under trinity/arch
MutantTurkey	gotta run for a minute, talk then.
kb9vqf	semd me a tarball with everything the way you want it there
kb9vqf	(not via Email, via a link)
kb9vqf	MutantTurkey: You can Email me the link to the tarball when you have it ready
MutantTurkey	won't for a few days.
MutantTurkey	need to make i686 builds first
MutantTurkey	and do some research on how it works with arch
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: it'll be quite big
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MutantTurkey	blech vuze isn't even in the arch repositories (because its so terrible)
MutantTurkey	and it just pulled in every gross gnome lib i can think of
MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: wait why do I see a knetworkmanager9?
MutantTurkey	I thought we gave up on it and decided to go with nm-applet?
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MutantTurkey	Dr Vodka LOL
drvodka	hi
MutantTurkey	hey :)
drvodka	i just read your name
drvodka	i'm reading the arch wiki about trinity
drvodka	although i'm using trinity on debian, i'm just reading around
MutantTurkey	yeah I am trying to pull that wiki page together.
MutantTurkey	what a mess... anyway
MutantTurkey	drvodka: any questions? :D
drvodka	do you know anything much about detecting what desktop is running?  I came across a program today, it looks for KDE_FULL_SESSION, to decide to launch kfmclient to open a browser, i'm going to patch it to look for TDE_FULL_SESSION also, but i'm wondering what to do also as a total fallback
drvodka	at the moment it only detects kde and gnome
MutantTurkey	I think our environment variables might sitll crossover.
MutantTurkey	KDE_SESSION is a variable.
drvodka	yeah i still have a few that start KDE too
MutantTurkey	KDE_SESSION_UID rather.
MutantTurkey	what program is this?
MutantTurkey	j/w
drvodka	miro
drvodka	after installing trinity, the "open in web page" button for rss feed items stopped working
drvodka	so i fixed it for myself, i'm just thinking about submitting a patch, and the best ways
drvodka	it's a bit off topic here anyway i guess
MutantTurkey	nah not offtopic :P
MutantTurkey	if its related to trinity, it's on topic.
MutantTurkey	drvodka: I say send in the patch :P
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KingSphinx	Well, the Fedora Trinity live CD works fine, but notably... my wireless wasn't working. Fedora's normally the only distribution with out-of-box support for my kind of wireless card.
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Xu_R	kb9vqf: do you mind if I do my work for openSUSE spec files on a seperate branch for now?
Xu_R	it helps for CI
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edogaa	Well, I uninstalled trinity, it's nice but had too many issues. :/ For one thing, every other DE I ran, would run KDE3's kwin over their main WM. Also, a lot of KDE3 applications were larger than my screen and required me to hide the taskbar. o.O Though, I will likely use it on my main desktop machine just not sure about my laptop :/
edogaa	And then, there was pulseaudio...lol applications had trouble with audio
edogaa	skype required artsD when kde3 was there.
edogaa	Still, other than those minor inconveniences it was nice! :|
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gryc	I regret installing fedora 15 before the i386 trinity packages were built :(
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edogaa	looooooooooool
edogaa	gryc: that;s why I backed my 4 gb home folder to DVD then reinstalled
gryc	Well I have my home still, I just have kde4
gryc	but it's better than the mangled OS I had installed before. Ubuntu doesn't like being upgraded three times in one sitting
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edogaa	lol
KingSphinx	Whee, switch to Fedora went without a hitch.
edogaa	o.O if you can figure out why Kwin keeps running for every DE, and how to make sure pulseaudio works perfectly with every application, I am all ears :|
gryc	KingSphinx: Which Fedora? 16?
KingSphinx	Mhm, 16
gryc	KingSphinx: Which trinity repo did you use? The normal one?
KingSphinx	Hmm? Oh, I don't have Trinity installed just yet, lol. I'm using KDE 4.7 for the time being, and... it's solid. Hasn't even given me the odd "crash-on-shutdown" bug that Ubuntu's version of KDE has.
gryc	Ah okay, then we're in the same boat, more or less :P
edogaa	from what I hear or read most debian based KDE implementations
edogaa	can be pretty poor
gryc	my sole experience with kde4 is on ubuntu, and it was...slow.
KingSphinx	Though to be honest, I probably should've gone with GNOME instead of the KDE spin, Strigi's killing me here...
edogaa	i just disable all that
KingSphinx	Never said I was *enjoying* KDE 4, just that it's about the most stable I've ever seen it. :P
_Pete_	hey gurus, did you notice my email about debuild problem?
edogaa	I'm thinking of removing KDE4 since it's so unstable
edogaa	or not unstable...
edogaa	so much as just to slow on the card I use.
KingSphinx	I feel your pain... installing GNOME as we speak (hey, at least GNOME Shell doesn't run a whole SQL server in the background :P)
edogaa	Not painful, just anoying. clutter is it? feels smoother for the time being. lol
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cpatrick08	i tried the instructions for fedora 16 that i got from this page http://trinitydesktop.org/installation.php and it would not download the repo file from wget so i went to http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity/rpm/ and there is no 16 file i was wondering when it was going to be available
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edogaa	from the looks of it you're gonna have to wait lol
cpatrick008	yea but i was wondering why it is on the installation part of the site if it is not available
edogaa	:/ lol...
gryc	cpatrick008: Because they're not quite done compiling I presume, same for the 32 bit packages.
cpatrick008	ok
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gryc	give em a day or two and they should be up
cpatrick008	kk
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edogaa	that doesn't quit answer his question as to why 'the instructions exist if they are unavailable' but ahw ell lol it works i guess
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duda	hi there
duda	I've installed TDE on Scientific Linux 6.1
duda	echo
duda	:)
duda	cheers
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_Pete_	hmm.. if I want to build sources should I use git or svn repo?
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aalecs	!seen samelian
tbottu	aalecs: samelian was last seen in #trinity-desktop 11 hours, 41 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <samelian> ask Tim why it was removed
aalecs	!seen alecs
tbottu	aalecs: I have not seen alecs.
aalecs	!seen aalecs
tbottu	aalecs: aalecs was last seen in #trinity-desktop 6 seconds ago: <aalecs> !seen alecs
aalecs	m ok
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rzs19	goood morning
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* Strangelv would applaud duda, but duda logged out before anyone could applaud
schimaram_	you can applaud me ;-) I installed it on a CenOS6 and now I'm filling a bug report :-(
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 605 filed by mojbordel@yahoo.co.uk.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=605 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Trinity QT3 breaks KDE4's k3b
* Strangelv claps
marek77	:-(
Strangelv	Wish it went as smoothly as <duda> I've installed TDE on Scientific Linux 6.1
Strangelv	...but at least we now know abut a problem
marek77	Oh the installation went smoothly, no problem with that. But there should be a note for yum based distros and people using repo priorities that you have to put trinity repo on a higher priority than the Base distro repo.
marek77	I managed to move over my .kde from KDE3.5.10, changed it into .trinity and Trinity started :-) but I've read how it's supposed to co-exist with other DEs so I added KDE4 and so far seen k3b crashing
Strangelv	Do we have a package name collisionL
marek77	for the install?
marek77	it was qt3
marek77	trinity provides and requires qt3-3.3.8d-2.el6.i686
marek77	CentOS 6.0 has qt3-3.3.8b
rzs19	a friend reported some issues like kdm launches kwin for a xfce session, don't know if he has reported it as bug.
Strangelv	"So it treated them as equivalent?
rzs19	seems that kdm needs kwin?
Strangelv	If that's the case we probably should call ours 3.3.9 -- it's not like it has an upstream other than us anymore
marek77	yum treated the version numbers as equivalent disregarding "b" and "d" at the end, I guess. And since Base had higher prio than Trinity, it was a no go.
Strangelv	...or _could_ we get Nokia to accetp our patches?
rzs19	patches for qt3?
* Strangelv nods
marek77	that would need to be seen with Nokia, and looks like a clean solution :-)
Strangelv	TDE can't run with standard Qt3 -- there were some bugsl that got in the way, so Tim fixed the bugs with it
Strangelv	...at least the relevant ones
marek77	I swapped trinity and Base priorities, and it installed OK. it's just a versioning issue
Strangelv	So how are we breaking the Qt4 version of k3B?
marek77	like this:
marek77	[Thread debugging using libthread_db enabled]
marek77	[KCrash handler]
marek77	#6  0x0186c4d1 in QGList::append(void*) ()
marek77	from /usr/lib/qt-3.3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3
marek77	#7  0x0352c3ec in KUniqueApplication::delayRequest(QCString const&, QMemArray<char> const&) () from /opt/trinity/lib/libkdecore.so.4
marek77	#8  0x0352c4d5 in KUniqueApplication::process(QCString const&, QMemArray<char> const&, QCString&, QMemArray<char>&) () from /opt/trinity/lib/libkdecore.so.4
marek77	but I don't know why KDE4's k3b is calling QT3...??
Strangelv	"Maybe this isl a Qt4 k3b bug...
Strangelv	Where is _their_ bug tracker?  Fire it there too?
marek77	well to me it looks like k3b is loading some library and it get the one from trinity instead of the expected qt4 (with the same name)?
Strangelv	"if it's a name collison then it probabyl counts as our bug
Strangelv	...ypossibly a Qt3 bug
Strangelv	Another patch for our submission to Nokia?
marek77	could post it to KDE4 too. but sad experience shows that if you're not running the latest and greatest version (and with CentOS that's never the case), you'll be ignored in the better case.
Strangelv	So it's up to us to work out a test case, and unfortunately I'm not flexible enough to try that right now.  I'm also way behind on my effort for National Novel Writing Month and have only now worked out a show-stopping technical issue (difficulty with trying to write what could be good science fiction with editing -- make the wrong error and your entire story is garbage).
marek77	use a versioning system ;-)
Strangelv	Doesn't wokr if the story is built upon assumption X, and assumption X turns out to be completely impossible
marek77	lol
Strangelv	It's more of a GIGO situation
marek77	thought that was quite common in SF
Strangelv	Bad SF, yes
Strangelv	Stuff that fails to be real science fiction and doesn't ewven make for structuralyl sound fantasy
Strangelv	obsolete science fiction is different
Strangelv	that still holds up as fantasy
Strangelv	"So wha'ts the least difficult way to test the k3B bug?
Strangelv	"with the lastest versions of everything?
marek77	if you want to see if it's still relevant, latest versions would be best. but as a user trying trinity my issue is that I DON'T want latest, I would be on Fedora instead of CentOS...
marek77	KDE4 is seriously slow on my box, that's why I'm trying to keep "KDE3.5" with Trinity
marek77	I guess if k3b is broken I'll have to use some non-QT app, but finding one up to par with k3b is difficult
Strangelv	The latest KDE3/TDE has just come out and uses the latest unofficial Qt3.  I don't know what the latest KDE4 is.
Strangelv	There's always the challeneg of what to do if you can't get the newer versions of whatever fork you're using.  Until a couple of months ago the Moon Society's infrastructure was running on a server running FreeBSD 4
Strangelv	I probably don't need to describe the sorts of problems we were regularly running into...
Strangelv	It's why the wikis ended up on a different server with  different provider
marek77	well on CentOS6 it's 4.3.4, on my work Ubuntu Lucid it's 4.5.3, and KDE4 website says 4.7.3
marek77	argh
Strangelv	"I'm doubting they'll be motivated to fix "KDE" 4.3
marek77	exactly
Strangelv	...but if we can at least confirm that the problem still exists, we can keep people running versions after the fix from rutnning into the problem
marek77	just between 4.3 and 4.5, k3b goes from v1.0.5 to 2.0.1
marek77	major release..
Strangelv	...although if Debian is still running 4.3 they might be motivated o fix it
Strangelv	which one did you find the problem with?
marek77	KDE4.3.4  k3b 1.0.5
Strangelv	"We can hope that it's fixed with k3b 2, but it's probabyl important to check to make sure
marek77	yep
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feindbild	hi ^^
feindbild	can anyone point me to a public clone of tde-packaging (http://git.trinitydesktop.org/cgit/tde-packaging/) please? Pretty please don#t make me wget -r the thing >.<
vhumpa	Whoa, now with Fedora 16 out, packages and repo are already out for it and guess what, install perfectly!
Strangelv	"Yay Fedora
* Strangelv unfortunately has no experience with Git
Strangelv	Ify ou stick around someone who can answer your qestion may wake up and answer it
tbottu	10f.couperin@online.fr marked bug 567 as a duplicate of bug 109.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=567 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED DUPLICATE, [ksmserver-trinity] dpkg-divert conflict
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=109 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, ksmserver-kde3 cannot be removed in jaunty.
rzs19	http://sourceforge.net/projects/dsywindows/
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rzs19	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Window_System interessting porject :)
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DF5JT	Hi there, I can't get the Fedora repos to work.
DF5JT	There is no F16 repo and the F15-repo file sends me to an empty mirror
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marek77	Hello
marek77	I thought I would try trinity on Ubuntu Lucid; I installed as per http://www.trinitydesktop.org/installation.php but it refused to start
marek77	so I'm trying to uninstall
marek77	:-(
marek77	can't get rid of ksmserver-trinity
rzs19	does kdm start?
marek77	yeah KDM is ok, I kept the one from KDE4
rzs19	and if you select trinity, what happened excactly?
marek77	I'm sorry I got frustrated and removed most of packages, can't reproduce anymore. But the splash didn't appear and I had a simple X window (a bit like xmessage) with an error message saying it couldn't find k___<something>
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marek77	and an OK button, by pressing which I got back to kdm
marek77	now I'm trying to remove the whole thing, and ksmserver-trinity post-removal script seems to be broken
marek77	apt-get remove ksmserver-trinity
marek77	...
marek77	...
marek77	Do you want to continue [Y/n]? y
marek77	(Reading database ... 461295 files and directories currently installed.)
marek77	Removing ksmserver-trinity ...
marek77	No diversion `any diversion of /usr/bin/plasma', none removed
marek77	Removing `local diversion of /usr/bin/plasma-desktop to /usr/bin/plasma-desktop.kde4'
marek77	dpkg-divert: rename involves overwriting `/usr/bin/plasma-desktop' with
marek77	different file `/usr/bin/plasma-desktop.kde4', not allowed
marek77	dpkg: error processing ksmserver-trinity (--remove):
marek77	subprocess installed post-removal script returned error exit status 2
marek77	Errors were encountered while processing:
marek77	ksmserver-trinity
marek77	E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
marek77	can't get rid of the bastard, tried apt-get, aptitude, even dpkg with --force-all
marek77	hmm. I had to hack the postinstall script but I managed to get it uninstalled :-)
marek77	added exit straight after "remove" action in /var/lib/dpkg/info/ksmserver-trinity.postrm
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h31	Hi all. Kicker crashes every time I'm trying to see "Settings" submenu!
h31	On Ubuntu 11.10
_Pete_	it's known bug
_Pete_	http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=554
tbottu	04Bug 554: normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, art_render_gradient.c makes kicker and konqueror crash
h31	_Pete_: are there any fix in a nightly builds repo?
_Pete_	I think not, altough not 100% sure
h31	_Pete_: are there any workaround?
_Pete_	in that bug report there's patch
_Pete_	havent tried myself
_Pete_	that of coz requires you to compile things yourself
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Strangelv	Morning
h31	_Pete_: oh, yet another question. I'm running trinity on a laptop, so are there any tools to change CPU frequency and to change powersaving options?
MutantTurkey	morning
MutantTurkey	h31: yes kpowersave
MutantTurkey	it works like a charm! (using it myself)
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Strangelv	<feindbild> can anyone point me to a public clone of tde-packaging (http://git.trinitydesktop.org/cgit/tde-packaging/) please? Pretty please don#t make me wget -r the thing >.<
* Strangelv doesn't actualyl understand what feinbild is requesting
MutantTurkey	feindbild: you'll need to use git clone
MutantTurkey	to do it...
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MutantTurkey	kb9vqf: that posting by that *certain* kde4 developer has quite a bit of postings below it
MutantTurkey	a few good points, but mostly just mudslinging
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Strangelv	The author of http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2011/11/the-grass-has-always-been-greener-on-the-other-side-of-the-fence/ is extremely tame compared to the people who were militantly trying to forcibly ram KDE 4 down everyone's thorats circa KDE 4.1 a couple of years ago.
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rzs19	Strangelv: du you have read the german post from martin gräßlin?
rzs19	or translated?
Strangelv	No, so I can't guage what he posted there
Strangelv	only that specific blog post
MutantTurkey	I am trying to translate it now
rzs19	his english post is harmless in contrast to his german one
MutantTurkey	http://www.freiesmagazin.de/mobil/freiesMagazin-2011-09-bilder.html#11_09_trinity
MutantTurkey	that is it
Strangelv	noted
Strangelv	so reading the German one might not be as safe for me as reading the English one...
MutantTurkey	his tone invalidates everything he says...
rzs19	i think he has too much free time and maybe a brain disease - but don't know, i'am not dr. house.
MutantTurkey	he is so angry it makes his arguments pointless
MutantTurkey	he seems like a real jerk
MutantTurkey	rzs19: did you catch mondays episode?
MutantTurkey	http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&sl=auto&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://www.freiesmagazin.de/mobil/freiesMagazin-2011-09-bilder.html%2311_09_trinityn
rzs19	he also don't understand linux distribution, open source, wayland and x11
MutantTurkey	translated.
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rzs19	no, atm i don't have not so much time for watching tv :)
rzs19	his blog contains some strange posts
h31	Oh, another problem. Tried to switch to kickoff menu, if clicking on a menu button it hangs and uses 100% of cpu.
rzs19	<somebadyjoke>h31, do you have disabled the kde4 simulator?</somebadjoke>
* Strangelv wonders what Kevin Kofler had in mind to do that he would have preferred to Tim's solution
MutantTurkey	h31: I am working on it.
MutantTurkey	kickoff is hellish and from opensuse. Tim won't even touch the code
MutantTurkey	h31: I have a patch that should fix that problem, but the painting is still done grotesquely
MutantTurkey	http://bugs.trinitydesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=508
tbottu	04Bug 508: minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Kickoff menu unstable
gcsimon	in his german post, he is highlighting the new plasma desktop... i had it installed a while back, and it takes only "one single wrong mouseclick" to make your taskbar disappear.
MutantTurkey	the patch there should allow it to at least work well
* Strangelv wonders about the feasibility of a rewrite of Kickoff
MutantTurkey	I was rewriting it to use the regular kbutton class but my development got sidetracked with the release
rzs19	gcsimon: that was the one-klick-taskbar-disappear-feature its like the arrow from kicker :D
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: no the menu is OK, the button class sucks.
MutantTurkey	I have it rewritten, and it's almost there :p
h31	MutantTurkey: so we can wait it in nightly builds soon?
MutantTurkey	h31: it's not in the nightly builds
MutantTurkey	I think I want to do the patch all at once.
gcsimon	wouldn't mind it, if there were a button to make it appear again ^^
MutantTurkey	with everything fixed
MutantTurkey	though we _could_ upload that small fix.
MutantTurkey	h31: that is, once we get nightlies working again.
rzs19	on friday, i will try to write a bluez kio "plugin" ... i hope i have the time
MutantTurkey	rzs19: you know how to work with bluetooth?!?!
MutantTurkey	we need a bluetooth developer quite badly.
MutantTurkey	gcsimon: I am rereading his post, it's quite mundane
gcsimon	kde and bluetooth always failed for me. but gnome had a nice aplet which did the magic
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rzs19	well, i don't think that this would be the solution you want to have. i'am a python developer, i use kde bindings and bluez. i have used bluez some time ago. after that, i will try to code better c++ and implement the same in c++.
rzs19	so filetransfer over bluetooth shouldwork, but thats no magic...
* Strangelv looks forwart to looking at TDE Kickoff and seeing if it's an improvement over Kicker. He remembersl desperately wanting an alternative to Kicker more than six years ago, but over the years he's gotten used to its limitations. It has a lot of features he doesn't use becoues they result in a menru bar with no room for anything at all
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rzs19	MutantTurkey seems to be disappointed, but no ground to leave the chat
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gcsimon	btw. i still have a server with about 500 GB spare traffic each month, could you use it?
gcsimon	sadly i currently don't have the time to do active development
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* Strangelv isn't sure wdo besides Tim could answer gcsimon's question
Strangelv	"Acutally, I'm pretty sure th answer is likely to be 'yes' but I can only guess beyond that point (hoting a mirror being my ownly guess)
Strangelv	Thoere might be a better answer, though
Strangelv	Martin Gräßlin's attitude does get a bit more taxic in the comments
Strangelv	toxic, too
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rzs19	he acts like a little children ;)
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rzs19	wb
MutantTurkey	thanks :)
rzs19	MutantTurkey: to the bluetooth. i don't know if my kio bluetooth solution isthat was you want, its atm planed for filetransfer
MutantTurkey	had to dash to my chem class
MutantTurkey	what else does bluetooth provide?
rzs19	what*
rzs19	remote control
MutantTurkey	what previously existed?
MutantTurkey	remote control?
rzs19	don't knw, i only have used file transfer
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rzs19	yep you can control your desktop with a handy
MutantTurkey	I mean a kio plugin is nice becaue it is small
gcsimon	HID over bluetooth?
gcsimon	for keyboard/mice
MutantTurkey	that too.
gcsimon	that was my primary use-case
MutantTurkey	how did KDE3.5 originally have bluetooth support?
Strangelv	Remember boys and girls, it doesn't matter how sluggish, incomplete, annoying, or otherwise unduly difficult to KDE4 is, you can't compare it to TDE/KDE3 except to say that TDE/KDE3 is inferior becuse it doesn't have this gee whiz feature everyone simply must be using or they're yesterday's rubbish.  I need to stop reading this.
MutantTurkey	(I barely ever use bluetooth, only once for a mouse)
rzs19	don't know i primary used it for filetransfer :)
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: except that it's 4.7 and they still are fixing compositor issues LOL
MutantTurkey	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_profile
MutantTurkey	maybe relevant
MutantTurkey	thats the spec
MutantTurkey	28 different things.
* Strangelv doesn't know what he would be running if it wasn't for TDE. He might be able to run 3.5.190 for as far as Meerkat, and perhas after that maybe XFCE...
MutantTurkey	if someone implemented that. HOLY CRAP it would be cool
gcsimon	i believe there was an applet. kbluetooth
MutantTurkey	xfce is like gnome2 but worse....
Strangelv	s/3.5.190/3.5.10/
rzs19	much todo :D
gcsimon	i tried gnome..... :(
Strangelv	Yes, but it's still being supported.  Q: DOes it try to protect users from information they really do need to know?
MutantTurkey	Q: xfce?
MutantTurkey	okay so lets talk more about bluetooth.
MutantTurkey	rzs19: how much is covered by bluez?
MutantTurkey	my guess is that we basically just need to write a bluetooth frontend
MutantTurkey	libbluez probably covers everything
MutantTurkey	relevant http://www.bluez.org/
rzs19	*need to try kbluetooth* hmm,don't know, its a long time i have worked with bluez, could only remember thath i have build a console app for filetransfer.
Strangelv	"Yes, Gnome 2 does/did that -- one of the main reasons why it proved to be a grating experienec for me, if pleasant by comparison to my experienec with KDE 4
MutantTurkey	rzs19: do you have a link to kblueooth?
MutantTurkey	I dont seem to remember seeing it
gcsimon	i had it on an openSuSE system (10.1)
gcsimon	but i have no linkt o it
MutantTurkey	okya
rzs19	i think it was alsoe build on top of bluez?
MutantTurkey	I wonder if someone can drudge up the sources from the dreaded KDE:KDE3 repository
MutantTurkey	rzs19: yes
gcsimon	yep
MutantTurkey	bluez is the kernel stack.
MutantTurkey	everything is written on top of it for bluetooth
rzs19	i hope i can write a small solution next week, taht will work.
gcsimon	google has a few links to kbluetooth
MutantTurkey	http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_11.4/src/kde3-kdebluetooth-1.0.8-172.1.src.rpm
MutantTurkey	got it
MutantTurkey	rzs19: maybe try porting that
rzs19	well, i think my c++ is too bad. but now i have motivation to learn it better, becouse i want help :)
Strangelv	Are there sources of stock code that we could hamter into shape?
Strangelv	Or maybe hammer?
gcsimon	careful. openSuSE 10.4 does not ship kde3 anymore. the link you got could be of kde4-kbluetooth
rzs19	or "i want to help" ... whattever... seems that i alos have to learn englisch ;D
MutantTurkey	gcsimon: no that is the KDE:KDE3 repository
MutantTurkey	maintained by our lovely collaborator, Ilya
MutantTurkey	maybe Xu_R can explain
MutantTurkey	basically ilya maintains unoffical repos for it,
gcsimon	ah. my mistake. sry
MutantTurkey	yep
MutantTurkey	does someone want to take a look at the link
MutantTurkey	try and compile it maybe?
* Strangelv has yet to do anything successfully with an RPM package
gcsimon	i have a few opensuse boxes here
gcsimon	11.4 mainly
gcsimon	i could try. but i never did any development with kde3 or qt3
MutantTurkey	rzs19: maybe take a loot at it at least.
MutantTurkey	its just a source tarball afaik
gcsimon	i got it unpacked
gcsimon	inside is a tar.gz with the source
gcsimon	someone want to have it?
_Pete_	after couple of days using, starting relove kde3 again
MutantTurkey	gcsimon: I would
MutantTurkey	though I can just do the rpm as well
_Pete_	this is blazing fast compared to gnome and even xfce
gcsimon	i can upload it to my server
gcsimon	www.brennecke-it.net/simon/linux/kdebluetooth-1.0_beta8.tar.bz2
MutantTurkey	at 11kb/s it will take a long while
MutantTurkey	_Pete_: indeed :)
gcsimon	^^
MutantTurkey	this dumb 3G connection stinks inside the chem labs.
_Pete_	MutantTurkey: yeah, even with my machine its really noticeable
gcsimon	no w-lan?
drvodka	you're all making me think about bluetooth now too, i haven't tried it yet
MutantTurkey	_Pete_: I have a new machine (i5) and it's noticeable.
MutantTurkey	gcsimon: our school wifi is terrible, so tethering it is the solution
_Pete_	yep, this is i7
MutantTurkey	gcsimon: school wifi doesnt play with linux well
MutantTurkey	drvodka: are you a bluetooth junkie?
MutantTurkey	rzs19: my guess for kde3-bluetooth is that the API's a totally borked
MutantTurkey	because bluez has probably changed quite a bit.
drvodka	MutantTurkey: not really, but i have one for transferring photos from my phone occasionally, it kind of worked in kde4 :O it would just crash after every image
rzs19	so it should not be a problem to fix it, or? :)
MutantTurkey	rzs19: so it should be maybe difficult
MutantTurkey	but not as hard as doing from scratch
gcsimon	i used obexftp for that
gcsimon	kbluetooth/kio_bluez never worked for me
MutantTurkey	well lets get it working! :p
gcsimon	currently i try to get all includes/libs together to make it compile on my TDE box here
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rzs19	this week i have no time, becouse i travel to austria. on friday(on the long train ride) i will try to get a working bluez kio plugin, after that, i could take a look on kbluetooth(if no other will do this before me)
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drvodka	hmm
drvodka	Configuration file "/home/user/.kde/share/config/bluedevilmonolithicrc" not writable.
drvodka	Please contact your system administrator.
MutantTurkey	drvodka: are the permissions funky?
marek77	bluetooth seriously sucks. no matter desktop or even OS
marek77	blue tooth of PAIN
gcsimon	gnome got it working, but i agree it it quite bugged
drvodka	MutantTurkey: possibily, that config directory is set to 700
MutantTurkey	marek77: yep
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MutantTurkey	drvodka: what else is set in the area?
MutantTurkey	chown it maybe
drvodka	i just chown to 755, now the bluedevil starts, gonna test it now
h31	Hello, It's me again :) What package is required to add ssl support to kmail and konversation?
h31	Also, how to fix an incorrect codepage of IMAP folders?
MutantTurkey	drvodka: what is bluedevil?
gcsimon	h31: openssl? i did'nt install anything specific
drvodka	MutantTurkey: that's what installed when i installed kdebluetooth
MutantTurkey	drvodka: on what system?
MutantTurkey	is this kde4 or 3?
drvodka	trinity on debian wheezy
drvodka	but maybe it pulled from kde4 packages....
MutantTurkey	who provided kdeblueooth? from our repos?
drvodka	ah, yeah it must be a kde4 package from squeeze/wheezy
MutantTurkey	the package should be named trinity-X
gcsimon	drvodka: what configure options did you use?
MutantTurkey	yeah :p
MutantTurkey	whoops
MutantTurkey	anyone know how to debug Java?
MutantTurkey	I don't even know where to start.
drvodka	what package should i install then? i can't find a bluetooth one for trinity
MutantTurkey	it doesnt exist.
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MutantTurkey	thats why were having _this_ conversation
drvodka	ok
MutantTurkey	it broke some time ago (3.5.11?) and nobody had bluetooth knowledge to fi
gcsimon	yeah bluedevil sounds suspiciously like kde4
MutantTurkey	most people dont even use / have bluetooth devices
gcsimon	i think this is, because it is quite hard to find good software to use it
rzs19	http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7606/tbar5.png - slowly it works :)
gcsimon	i use obexftp to transfer vcards from my desktop addressbook (kontact) to my phone
_Pete_	MutantTurkey: debug java?
MutantTurkey	yes
_Pete_	start java with proper parameters to enable debuging
MutantTurkey	someone reported Vuze(java app) is crashing because of qt-gtk-engine
MutantTurkey	so I am tryng to debug it
_Pete_	then use some IDE to connect the running process
_Pete_	MutantTurkey: it was me who reported
MutantTurkey	okay :)
_Pete_	it's wierd
MutantTurkey	yeah gtk-qt-engine is also my dealio along with kickoff
MutantTurkey	trying to port it to gtk3 as well.
_Pete_	as if I do ssh -X localhost
_Pete_	and then start vuze
_Pete_	it goes ok
_Pete_	i suspect it's envinronment problem
MutantTurkey	no it makes sense
MutantTurkey	_Pete_: thats the environmental variable maybes then?
MutantTurkey	i mean vuze probably makes weird calls
MutantTurkey	also, I hate vuze :p
MutantTurkey	bug = lowest priority of all time.
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MutantTurkey	but actually I just dontknow how to deal with java
_Pete_	I think it's not java issue
MutantTurkey	_Pete_: no,  I know it's not
MutantTurkey	but I just don't know how to find a backtrace or anything.
_Pete_	crash happens before java is started?
_Pete_	took a little look the starting script
_Pete_	it does some wierd stuff
MutantTurkey	yeah
MutantTurkey	I am just interested in the calls.
_Pete_	I guess the crash happens somewhere there in script
_Pete_	before it gets to point to do: java ....
MutantTurkey	it makes a call at8     $START_CLASS "$@"
MutantTurkey	189
h31	Oh, I opened konqueror setting, cryptography tab, tried to load OpenSSL, konqueror was not able to do it.
MutantTurkey	188 $START_CLASS "$@"
gcsimon	h31: openssl installed?
* Strangelv tries to avoid ranting about the brick walls he ran into trying to port a project from C++ to Java. He's not done anything with either langage since.
MutantTurkey	_Pete_: I dont know where it's going from there.
MutantTurkey	s15y: java is not good i think
MutantTurkey	it has it's place in certain situations, but mostly I think it is good to avoid.
_Pete_	MutantTurkey: which script are you talking?
MutantTurkey	especially for performance critical things like torrenting...
h31	gcsimon: of course
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Strangelv	I didn't get far enough to run into performance issues.  I was trying to use higher than double float precision and had a complicated class structure to port over.  Java has some patronizing features that can become an unbelievable pain.
_Pete_	so has c++
drvodka	well, i installed every bluetooth package i could find, and somehow i can send/recieve files ok, so i'm happy
gcsimon	h31: "openssl" on console works?
Strangelv	I've basically nt esd anything but Python or Javascript for several years.  I'm considering learning PHP to port something I wrote in Javascript that needs access to features no browser will allow with javascript
h31	gcsimon: prints "OpenSSL>"
gcsimon	h31: good
_Pete_	MutantTurkey: /usr/lib/java-wrappers/java-wrappers.sh
_Pete_	are you talking about this?
gcsimon	h31: any specific message from konqueror, why it cannot load openssl?
h31	gcsimon: libssl was not found or successfully loaded.
h31	Nothing more
gcsimon	h31: maybe wrong architecture? like konqeror is 64bit and the libssl is 32bit?
gcsimon	h31: or is it a 32bit only box?
MutantTurkey	_Pete_: /usr/bin/vuze
h31	gcsimon: only 32 bit
Xu_R|School	kb9vqf: you there? >_>"
MutantTurkey	"gone away for now"
gcsimon	h31: please run "ldd -r /usr/lib64/libssl3.so", does it report any unresolved symbols or something?
MutantTurkey	Xu_R|School: whats up doode
gcsimon	h31: sry. /lib/ not "/lib64/"
gcsimon	h31: my box is 64bit
h31	gcsimon: there are no libssl3.so, only libssl.so.0.9.8
gcsimon	h31: hm. what distribution do you use?
Xu_R|School	hey MutantTurkey
h31	gcsimon: ubuntu 11.10
MutantTurkey	Xu_R|School: gotta send out the reminder today for the meetin
MutantTurkey	what shoud it say
MutantTurkey	?
Xu_R|School	MutantTurkey: basically that there will be a meeting next week
Xu_R|School	what time
Xu_R|School	remind what channel
Xu_R|School	and a link to discussion topics
Xu_R|School	you should send a reminder email again in a few days to make sure people remember
MutantTurkey	still didnt pick a time... :x
gcsimon	h31: mh. thats the right library. my konqueror here loads it too.
gcsimon	h31: try to run ldd -r against that one
Xu_R|School	>>;;
h31	gcsimon: all libs are found.]
Xu_R|School	Try afternoon? It would be good for everyone from europe to be there too :)
Xu_R|School	I use this to make sure: http://www.timeanddate.com/
drvodka	i use kworldclock-trinity :D
Xu_R|School	:P
Xu_R|School	ok, I gotta split. Lunch isn't eating itself :| and I'm not in the same place as before where I could eat and have a computer
Xu_R|School	>_>
Xu_R|School	later guys
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rzs19	bye, see you all later
drvodka	bye
gcsimon	cy
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 606 filed by james@nurealm.net.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=606 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, launching privileged apps from the panel "kicker" throws a password dialog box
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* Strangelv incrasingly suspects the need for a 3.5.13.1 release
KingSphinx	I'm just hoping that the Fedora version isn't as buggy as the Ubuntu build...
* kb9vqf notes that such a release would push 3.5.14 out by several months at least
KingSphinx	Though, at this rate, as long as it runs acceptably well, I'll take it; Fedora's given me nothing but grief with GNOME Shell
KingSphinx	Hardware acceleration seems to be either poorly-implemented or just plain broken because stuff as simple as drawing the volume indicator if I raise/lower the volume takes forever.
drvodka	are the debian and ubuntu builds essentially identical?
kb9vqf	they are close, but by no means identical
KingSphinx	I think there's some slight differences, I think it has to do with how the Ubuntu build takes after Kubuntu, while every other version is essentially "stock" TDE
kb9vqf	also, each set if binary packages is actually built on the distribution and version mentioned, so Ubuntu Maverick packages are actually built on a clean install of Ubuntu Maverick, etc.
drvodka	ok, just curious because it seems to be working very nicely here on debian, it felt like it took a second or two longer to boot up than kde3.5 official, but everything else seems fast, and working so far
drvodka	start up, not boot up
kb9vqf	actually I think I know where the speed difference comes from ;-)
KingSphinx	Is it possible to get "stock" TDE without the Kubuntu stuff on Ubuntu?
kb9vqf	kwin is preloaded during kdm startup
KingSphinx	Without building from source, I mean.
kb9vqf	hmmm....never had that request before....there are patches in the Ubuntu versions, so your only recourse would be Debian or build from source
kb9vqf	you should be able to install the Debian version on Ubuntu, but I have not tried it before
drvodka	any time i have a dull moment in my work, i just sit and press the 'home' icon, and marvel at how konq file browser is there instantly, unlike kde4, tears of joy
KingSphinx	Hmm, figures. :/ Oh well, kind of a moot point for me now seeing as I'm back on Fedora and all.
kb9vqf	glad to hear someone likes our work :))
kb9vqf	KingSphinx: Ubuntu users tend to put up with a lot of patched/modified software, so I kind of kept that tradition alive ;-)
kb9vqf	the main changes are in default settings
KingSphinx	The only thing in Fedora that I truly feel needs to die in a fire is SELinux. :P
kb9vqf	and sudo-related stuff
kb9vqf	Yes, most desktop systems are not bank vaults :-P
kb9vqf	SELinux is quite overkill on the desktop
KingSphinx	SELinux has given me nothing but problems, it wouldn't even let me run GNOME Shell!
kb9vqf	heh
drvodka	haha wow
kb9vqf	Seriously though, it is designed for securing servers
kb9vqf	not for desktop usage
kb9vqf	and apparently it wants to enforce its design!
KingSphinx	I had to let SELinux puke up an error message, then work around that, open up a terminal, then blindly type "yum groupinstall lxde" since it was hidden behind that "Something has gone wrong!" fullscreen message.
kb9vqf	oh fun
kb9vqf	sounds like the type of really, really bad design I am seeing way too often in Linux these days
kb9vqf	IMHO the major distributions should be hiring a usability team and obeying everything they say ;-)
KingSphinx	then logout, enter LXDE (really quite light, only an 18 MB install), and completely disable SELinux. All this just to use my default desktop.
drvodka	i was just reading some results on the lastest ubuntu usability tests, where they gave ubuntu to some random people, and asked them to perform various normal tasks, got their opinion on various interface things
drvodka	it's good to see someone doing that
KingSphinx	SEL really should be an install-time option, not included by default...
KingSphinx	Besides, who uses Fedora in a production environment? CentOS or RHEL's more suited for that...
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net marked bug 572 as a duplicate of bug 583.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=572 critical, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED DUPLICATE, Problems with KDE Trinity 3.5.13 repositories on Debian Squeeze/Wheezy amd64
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=583 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, [kdelibs] startkde fails because of undefined symbol _ZN7QObject18childrenListObjectEv
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rzs19	hello :)
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aalecs	samelian: hi, private
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KingSphinx	Whee, I can't yet install TDE on Fedora because the trinity-kdeaccessibility package can't be found.
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gcsimon	btw. i got trinity running in a xen para-virtualized machine. not trivial. but possible. if someone wants to the same thing, just ask.
SomethingGoesOn	when i can wait packages for 32-bit maverick? :)
SomethingGoesOn	wait for*
gcsimon	actually i used lucid, the new ubuntu live cd won't work with xen. kernel problem i suspect (won't detect harddisk and network)
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Xu_R	ping kb9vqf
rzs19	gn8
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n0xx0ff	hi...
n0xx0ff	i'm trying to install trinity on oneric... dpkg is trying to remove sudo... is this normal? :|
KingSphinx	Yes, it's fine. You'll need to enable root, then use root to install Trinity. Don't worry, sudo-trinity will function exactly the same.
KingSphinx	Just remember to lock up root after you've finished. :P
n0xx0ff	nice... thnx :)
KingSphinx	I use Fedora, so I can use root right out of the box. Not that Ubuntu's approach is bad or anything, I just find using root a bit more convenient than prefacing everything with sudo.
n0xx0ff	sudo bash
n0xx0ff	;)
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n0xx0ff	i soo wanna check this out... you guys been running trinity with compiz? how does if fare in comparison to kde4+effects?
KingSphinx	I haven't run it with Compiz yet, so I wouldn't know. The only time I ever really bothered with Trinity+Compiz, it somehow borked my display driver.
KingSphinx	That was back with Ubuntu 10.10 though, so it may be better now.
n0xx0ff	: No space left on device << lol... :(
n0xx0ff	damn
KingSphinx	No space left? How small is your hard drive?! O_o
n0xx0ff	... my partition is rather small actually.... plus my apt cache is full of junk... it's just a setback... ;)
KingSphinx	Ah...
KingSphinx	By the way, TDE's gone from putting sound only through my main sound card in Kubuntu, to no sound at all in Fedora.
KingSphinx	Other than that, it actually runs rather smoothly, the only glitch of note so far is that the Keramik theme's window border is still missing.
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n0xx0ff	here goes nothing... brb
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gryc	Well that was wierd, I selected "TDE" but I ended up with some unholy combination of the kde4 desktop with the kde3 apps
kb9vqf	plasma tends to autolaunch with TDE
kb9vqf	bad design on KDE4's part unfortunately
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_Pete_	fuck this is really annoying
_Pete_	when I try to start certaing program
_Pete_	like
_Pete_	~$ wine
_Pete_	bash: /usr/bin/wine: No such file or directory
_Pete_	and that surely is there
_Pete_	this used to work before trinity
_Pete_	but how is this possible?
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Strangelv	So you type it in, doesn't see it, bun knows precisely where it used to be?
Strangelv	Is the file still there?
* Strangelv is reaching her, admittedly
Strangelv	here, too
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Strangelv	Morning
aalecs	morn
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rzs19	does any one have documents about kioslaves für kde3/tde ?
samelian	rzs19: yes
samelian	hang on
samelian	http://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/KIO_Slaves/Hello_World
samelian	http://techbase.kde.org/Development/Architecture/KDE3/Network_Transparency
samelian	http://paginas.fe.up.pt/~jmcruz/etc/kde/kdeqt/kde3arch/nettransparency.html
samelian	http://api.kde.org/3.5-api/kdelibs-apidocs/kio/html/classKIO_1_1SlaveBase.html
samelian	have fun :)
rzs19	nice, last night i only found broken links.
samelian	hehe
samelian	what you want to do?
rzs19	kio slave for bluez and weather :)
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samelian	nice
rzs19	well, weather applet is alos msising for my superkarambabar ... damn i have to less time *need48Hdays*
rzs19	dpkg -L python-trinity-trinity-doc/./usr/usr/share/usr/share/doc/usr/share/doc/python-trinity-trinity-doc/usr/share/doc/python-trinity-trinity-doc/changelog.Debian.gz/usr/share/doc/python-trinity-trinity-doc/changelog.gz/usr/share/doc/python-trinity-trinity-doc/copyright/usr/share/doc/python-trinity-trinity-doc/THANKSnot much docu?
rzs19	are there no documentation, or examples?
samelian	examples of what?
rzs19	of python bindings
samelian	hmm, I have no ideea, I do not know python at all
rzs19	i alos need to know the differenz between pykde from riverbank and the trinity python bindings...
gcsimon	i'm administrating a weather station in germany - but we only have a weather-applet for windows (c#) :-(
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rzs19	well, do you have documentation about the protocol which is use for query weatherinformation?
gcsimon	yes, i'm one of the developers ;-) it open source GNU GPL. but thze source is not yet available to the public. but if you are interesed i could give you svn access
rzs19	okay :D
rzs19	so maybe i can port it :)
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gcsimon	http://wetter.fh-worms.de (old site) and http://wetter2.mt-labor.it.fh-worms.de (new site under development)
rzs19	where is worms?
rzs19	near ffm?
gcsimon	http://maps.google.de/maps/place?ftid=0x47962bc14f284789:0x422d4d510db1be0&q=worms&hl=de&ved=0CAwQ-gswAA&sa=X&ei=p867TpTeCsmP_AapsrCVAw
gcsimon	about 80km to frankfurt
rzs19	hehe :D
rzs19	i'am from ffm
rzs19	atm...
gcsimon	:D
Strangelv	:: wonders what's left of Rhein-Mein
gcsimon	strangelv: whera re you from?
rzs19	Strangelv seems mystic...
Strangelv	"I'm in Texas, but I lived in Rheinland-Pfaeltz for a little over 3 years
Strangelv	Zweibruecken and Bitburg
Strangelv	A long time ago in a country now far, far away...
gcsimon	:D
* Strangelv was a supply puke for the US Air Force
* Strangelv needns to stop seeing things at Zweiblucken flash before his eyes like it's right ouside his window. That was moer than 20 years ago and much of that infrastructuer no longer exists
Strangelv	...or maybe none of it still exists...
gcsimon	don't know much about zweibrücken - 100km away from my location, and i have lttle business there ;)
Strangelv	I don't remember much there and I was there for more than two years
Strangelv	What I do remember -- most of the people theer hated the air base becausoe the F-4s were noisy.  Almost none of them could speak English despite what I'd been told (I regularly got in troubel attempting to figure things out with what little Deutsche I could speak  -- one conversation the person helpfully threw in the English words right and left, but i still got lost)... mostly agricultural
Strangelv	The shops closed early even on long saturday
Strangelv	Q: How are you supposed to do any shopping whene verything closes befoer you get off of work?
gcsimon	yeah, that problem sill persists, but the english speaking population increased. today everyone lerns english at school
gcsimon	(mor eor less, as you can see ;-) )
Strangelv	Evidently in the 1980s and erlier they didn't in some areas... I can only wish that I'd been taught something when I was young enough to learn something besides English
Strangelv	Bilungual education was only there for people woh already knew how to speak Spanish.  I need to not get started on that...
Strangelv	"if English is hde default second language to learn, what's the nextn one in line?  French (predecessor to English in this regard)?  Mandarin?  Japanese? Latin (not much is written in it these days)? Greek?
Strangelv	Mandarin wouldn't have been a serious choice when I was in school.  It took awhile for Deng to fix what he was able to fix before becoming the problemhimself by 1989 or so
gcsimon	french or spanish, that's all that gets offered at school here (opional)
Strangelv	"Spanish I must admit has a gob of speakers
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MobileTurkey	sup all
rzs19	hello Mr. MobileTurkey
rzs19	are you from Turkey, or can i eat you?
MobileTurkey	I am not from turkey? :[
* MobileTurkey 's nick is my mobile nickname
MobileTurkey	usually mutantturkey.
* Strangelv 'n nick is online combat games is usually StrangeTarget
Strangelv	<_Pete_> bash: /usr/bin/wine: No such file or directory and that surely is there this used to work before trinity but how is this possible?
Strangelv	from a couple of hours ago
MobileTurkey	_Pete_: is that possible? maybe your path is wrong, or wine is installed somewhere else.
MobileTurkey	I'd verify the file is actually there.
rzs19	gobbler == turkey ?
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aquarius_	hi there
aquarius_	i've tried TDE 3.5.13.. you were right. A few bugs. Kicker crashes.
aquarius_	but would be nice if you brought it back.
aquarius_	to normal that is.
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MobileTurkey	Kicker crashis?
MobileTurkey	aquarius_: more info
MobileTurkey	rzs19: Gobble Gobble
aquarius_	yep
aquarius_	hey Turkey :)
aquarius_	it does... even KingSphinx said it...
aquarius_	i went to check.... yep, crashes.
aquarius_	usually when you move the mouse over "System" in menu
aquarius_	but there's a few other glitches as well.
jumpship	Just out of curiosity, what other glitches?
jumpship	bug 554
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=554 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, art_render_gradient.c makes kicker and konqueror crash
aquarius_	hey Jump.. nice to see you again
aquarius_	i don't remember man...
aquarius_	i've removed it already..
aquarius_	so can't tell... but mainly it's kicker alright..
aquarius_	by the way.. funny thing, in Ubuntu task panel buttons look prettier than in Debina.
aquarius_	Debian*
aquarius_	they're more "deep" in a way
aquarius_	if pushed
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jumpship	Then it prob is a theme thing
jumpship	I don't like the just bold thing either, but got used to it long ago
aquarius_	i see...
MobileTurkey	Is it a theme thing?
MobileTurkey	that is weird though
MobileTurkey	what settings do you have?
MobileTurkey	aquarius_: I'd like to try and reproduce it
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MobileTurkey	Xu_R|School: sup
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* MobileTurkey sitting in schools "piano lounge". guy playing piano SUCKS :[
MobileTurkey	it's really annoying because anyone can play, but this guy is fucking terrible.
Xu_R|School	hey MobileTurkey
MobileTurkey	:x
Xu_R|School	XD
MobileTurkey	sorry about that.
* MobileTurkey smacks himself for language.
MobileTurkey	It's really bugging me though.
Xu_R|School	I'm in the music office of the school right now...
Xu_R|School	the lowest level of the band is rehearsing right now
MobileTurkey	it's like those people who can only play mary had a little lamb
MobileTurkey	except worse.
Xu_R|School	it's giving me a headache >>;;
Xu_R|School	LOL
jumpship	The pressed looking taskbar buttons is prob a theme thing, but if your thinking of the kicker crash, thats bug 554
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=554 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, art_render_gradient.c makes kicker and konqueror crash
Xu_R|School	nice analogy :P
aquarius_	MobileTurkey, that would be a nice thing man
MobileTurkey	aquarius_: how do you reproduce it
MobileTurkey	?
aquarius_	MobileTurkey, ah.... crash you mean?
aquarius_	MobileTurkey, kicker crash?
aquarius_	MobileTurkey, move your mouse over "System" in kicker menu.
Xu_R|School	wow... period is over already? >>;;
Xu_R|School	kk, later
MobileTurkey	no crash for me
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aquarius_	weird.
aquarius_	and what you're using now?
aquarius_	Debian or Ubuntu?
aquarius_	probably my config then. Anyways, i don't care.. i just wanted to see KDE3 on Ubuntu.
aquarius_	i'm soon to wipe it the hell out...
aquarius_	Ubuntu = bloated mainstream non-charismatic piece of disasterpiece.
aquarius_	or just disasterpiece.
aquarius_	frequently and diligently updated though...
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jumpship	Nothing wrong with Ubuntu, as long as I don't have to use it :)
drvodka	not too much wrong with ubuntu, as long as i remove all the default settings
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jumpship	Someone must like it, isn't it the most used desktop distro, or something
drvodka	i think it just slipped into second after mint
drvodka	but that's recent downloads, not total
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drvodka	i guess i missed the memo about mint, a few people i know installed it recently and removed ubuntu
jumpship	Isn't mint based on Ubuntu? Can't remember.
drvodka	they must have had a good promotional drive
drvodka	oh yeah, i looked it up
drvodka	didn't know they are based on ubuntu
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rzs19	well, there must be more differences as speed in kde3 vs kde4.
jumpship	If Ubuntu is for people who can't config debian, then I guess mint is for those who can't config Ubuntu
drvodka	hah
rzs19	LOL @jumpship
drvodka	so who is debian for, people who didn't want to set their CFLAGs to stun and build gentoo?
drvodka	before i used debian, i used slackware
rzs19	we should use LFS to get true power
aquarius_	that's the problem, it's just too most used :)
aquarius_	i don't wanna be another ubuntist
drvodka	i buildt a little mini distro recently, just to play, it runs ECL lisp as the shell
aquarius_	besides... it's pretty slow compared to Debian.
aquarius_	it starts up the same slow as Win 7
rzs19	some one knows the spinoff "lesbian" from debian?
drvodka	hah nope
aquarius_	in fact.. it reminds me of Win 7 which is quite disturbing.
jumpship	I like Debian, it fits me
aquarius_	me too.
aquarius_	but got issues.
aquarius_	audio still... it's not pulseaudio, it's not alsa... it's just kernel incompatibility with my hardware.
drvodka	my only issue with debian really is i tend to be in all repos at once because stuff is very slow to get to stable and even testing sometimes
jumpship	Issues come and go no matter what you use
aquarius_	by me it's been quite persistent my friend
drvodka	so i tend to have to do a lot of massaging in aptitude to not have broken packages
aquarius_	you remember yourself
rzs19	i like the display of the arch boot process its clearer than debians
drvodka	i'm trying to massage amarok-trinity right now
aquarius_	is it possible to install proprietary drivers for my audio?
aquarius_	cause i dunno even what my audio is.
drvodka	this is much easier than when i was still using kde3 from lenny while mostly in squeeze/wheezy
jumpship	I pretty much stick to stable, odd little bits from testing or sid, depending on how long it's been since release
jumpship	Are proprietary driver for your sound available?
aquarius_	no clue
aquarius_	all i know it's ATI HDA..
drvodka	perhaps you need the firmware packages from non-free? lots of the old blobs in debian are now removed from the kernel and put in non-free
jumpship	Intel HDA?
aquarius_	yeah.. but i think Alsa covers it up
aquarius_	so unless your kernel is up-to-date you'd have troubles.
aquarius_	so bummer. I can't manually update it.
jumpship	Thats the real problem with all audio on linux, alsa's a mess, and everyone and the grandma is trying to fix it without fixing it
aquarius_	yeah, but does anyone have the same prob i have?
aquarius_	i guess not
drvodka	hey i've got an idea, let's make a whole new audio subsystem that's even worse rather than fixing the old ones!
aquarius_	hah
jumpship	I think your problem is a mix of a lot of things at once
aquarius_	well yeah, but on Ubuntu it's alright. How about that?
aquarius_	that's why i hate it even more! It works!
aquarius_	:)
Z_God	aquarius_: what problem do you have?
aquarius_	hey Z_God
jumpship	They've put a lot of work into pulse I bet
aquarius_	didn't i tell you?
Z_God	I don't remember
aquarius_	pulse is also out of date in Squeeze
Z_God	but you wrote you had an alsa problem
aquarius_	you can't upgrade it unless your kernel is newer
aquarius_	no, it's not only that. It's overall audio prob with old kernel i think. My audio requires the 3rd one probably.
Z_God	pulse depends on a special kernel version??
Z_God	are you using ubuntu or debian?
aquarius_	i guess so, because in Ubuntu it's Pulse 1.x or something and in debian it's 0.x
aquarius_	right now Ubuntu, but just for experiment
Z_God	you can install newer kernels through a ppa
aquarius_	how much newer? :)
Z_God	for debian, installing a newer kernel should work as well
Z_God	dunno, I suggest looking it up ;)
aquarius_	i know, however by the way we with jumpship were fidgeting with sound i didn't know that
aquarius_	by the time*
aquarius_	well yeah, i'll try it.
Z_God	this is the easiest in general
aquarius_	sure... we'll see.
drvodka	why use pulseaudio?  i tried it once a while back, and it didn't work for me, but i don't really understand any advantage
MobileTurkey	pulse audio has some advantages.
MobileTurkey	(arguable ones)
* Z_God never tried it either
aquarius_	it works for me, but not much better. The effect is.... it routes the sound a tiny bit better but it "swallows" some signals
gcsimon	pulseaudio has network support
aquarius_	in latest ubuntu PA works flawlessly.
Z_God	gcsimon: yeah that is cool
aquarius_	older versions suck.
MobileTurkey	per application volume control, networking, lowish latency
aquarius_	that's the difference.
MobileTurkey	multi soundcards, bluetooth audio, equalization
drvodka	oh yeah, that per application volume control was pretty cool actually
MobileTurkey	sample conversion
MobileTurkey	all things that I am almost sure alsa and jackd can do..
Z_God	alsa has a bluetooth module
aquarius_	Alsa works for some people too.
aquarius_	i know one guy, he installed slackware. No PA. Only Alsa. No probs.
Z_God	and I don't know what multi soundscards means
drvodka	i only use alsa here on debian, never any sound issues
Z_God	I use multiple devices as well with plain alsa
aquarius_	so... guys.. it's all very confusing, all i know that in order to get rid of the most probs we have to get the freshest kernels possible.
drvodka	the only special thing i want is low latency, but the latency is not bad enough to really worry about
drvodka	there aren't really enough good music production programs anyway so i do most of that on a windows box still
aquarius_	drvodka, what audio do you have?
drvodka	alsa, and a soundblaster 5.1 digital something something card
aquarius_	ahh.. well that explains it
jumpship	with the emu10k or whatever it's called?
MobileTurkey	drvodka: into production?
MobileTurkey	me too :)
aquarius_	i have Intel HDA and it gives me hard times.
MobileTurkey	but seriously linux has  TON of stuff
rzs19	pulseaudioworks over network, or couldwork over network.
MobileTurkey	jackd does it nicely
drvodka	MobileTurkey: yeah, just a hobby really, i'm still using reason 2 on XP mostly
Z_God	aquarius_: what is the problem you have?
MobileTurkey	check out ardour (3 is in beta with midi editing and awesome new stuff)
gcsimon	aquarius_: but intel HDA ist well supported amoung newer kernels
aquarius_	the thing is, nobody could help me fixing my prob :) Nobody even knows about it.
Z_God	normally you don't need a new kernel
MobileTurkey	then some plgunis and a synth? it's awesome.
gcsimon	aquarius_: never had trouble with it on my boxes
aquarius_	gcsimon, yeah, and that means i have to use Ubuntu. But i don't wanna :)
aquarius_	Z_God, ok.. here goes
gcsimon	aquarius_: i used opensuse 9.x to 10.4 before
aquarius_	Z_God, playback gets muted/run over by some particular apps
gcsimon	aquarius_: what kerbel version do you have?
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Z_God	aquarius_: what apps?
Z_God	what happens exactly?
aquarius_	gcsimon, right now i'm on Ubuntu, but on Debian i had just the base one, 2.6.32
aquarius_	Z_God, many, but those that i tried were Skype, Wine and Audacity
gcsimon	aquarius_: thats recent enough for intel hda.
aquarius_	Z_God, they just jamm the sound if any other playback on.
aquarius_	gcsimon, what do you mean?
Z_God	aquarius_: the problem is that you're not using dmix for those apps
aquarius_	Z_God, for example i'm playing music, alright? And without switching it off i run skype and it just cuts it off
Z_God	you need to set all apps to the default device
gcsimon	aquarius_: intel hda should be well supported with kernel 2.6.32
aquarius_	Z_God, , someone has told me that already, but i dunno how to use dmix
Z_God	in those programs set your device to "default"
Z_God	and it will use dmix
drvodka	in a lot of programs it has an output setting, it will probably be at "default" now
aquarius_	gcsimon, well it's not apparently. At least not without some extra settings, some asoundrc.conf stuff etc etc etc
Z_God	do not set it to smth like hw:0,0
drvodka	but default isn't always dmix
aquarius_	Z_God, well.. actually it was hw:0,0 exactly.
MobileTurkey	dmix is grea t:)
Z_God	drvodka: it is when your card needs it
Z_God	aquarius_: that's the problem then
jumpship	I never got dmix to work automatically either, Intel HDA here too, but dmix does work, but had to set it up manually
aquarius_	Z_God, well, what else do i write down there?
Z_God	if you set one app to use hw:0,0 it will block all other apps & dmix from using it
aquarius_	hw:0,1? hw:0,2? maybe.. hw:0,2042042+E?
gcsimon	aquarius_: well i have NO IDEA of what yast did to the config files, but it always works out of the box
Z_God	use default instead
aquarius_	gcsimon, that's the thing, it never worked "out of the box"
drvodka	some other programs i hav to set too, liek mplayer always wants to try oss first, and if it gets it, it locks audio for other apps, so i have to set -ao alsa
aquarius_	sorry about that, but it just didn't.
aquarius_	always same shit
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aquarius_	Wine always jamms everything, and you can't do much settings in it.
Z_God	don't use oss basically
drvodka	in winecfg there is a setting for alsa too, i've had to set that also
aquarius_	should i be worried about every goddamn app?
Z_God	configure your apps to use alsa
aquarius_	ah..
aquarius_	i see.
Z_God	ubuntu disables oss in newer versions now
aquarius_	ok then.. i'll get one more time on Debian...
Z_God	you can also unload oss in debian
aquarius_	Z_God, listen.. when i get back could you help me out a bit?
Z_God	aquarius_: a newer kernel won't help you at all
Z_God	sure
gcsimon	aquarius_: are there truly apps out, that still use OSS?
aquarius_	Z_God, alright... thanks for letting know
drvodka	gmm, Z_God that sounds a good plan actually, could i just add snd_pcm_oss to my blacklist?
Z_God	gcsimon: almost all, there's only ALSA on linux
aquarius_	gcsimon, i dunno, but looking at my prob apparently there are.
Z_God	drvodka: yes but I think there's actually a line that loads it
aquarius_	Debian.. here i come
aquarius_	:)
aquarius_	but first...
aquarius_	damn... i feel like shit.... got some f..ng flu..
aquarius_	bbl...
gcsimon	aquarius_: if you need a config file, maybe i can grad one from my suse box
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feindbild	MobileTurkey: hi :) aren't you the arch guy? ^^
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rzs19	bye, cu all later :)
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aquarius_	i'm back
aquarius_	are you guys still there?
aquarius_	Z_God
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Z_God	yes
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s15y	Hi, having a problem after an upgrade 3.5.12->3.5.13 : konsole: symbol lookup error: /opt/trinity/lib/libkdeui.so.4: undefined symbol: _ZN7QObject18childrenListObjectEv
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Xu_R	!seen kb9vqf
tbottu	Xu_R: kb9vqf was last seen in #trinity-desktop 19 hours, 5 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <kb9vqf> bad design on KDE4's part unfortunately
Xu_R	!tell
tbottu	Xu_R: (tell <nick> <text>) -- Tells the <nick> whatever <text> is. Use nested commands to your benefit here.
Xu_R	!help
tbottu	Xu_R: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
Xu_R	!list
tbottu	Xu_R: Admin, Bugzilla, Channel, ChannelLogger, ChannelStats, Config, Misc, Network, Note, Owner, Protector, Seen, Services, and User
Xu_R	...how do I queue a message for kb9vqf...
Xu_R	oh wait.
Xu_R	memoserv
Xu_R	*facepalm*
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Damiano	hey
Damiano	anyone alive?
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gcsimon	s15y: if you still have that unresolved symbol problem: you prob. need to install qt3-libs (for some reason they are not atomatically installed)
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K`zan	Something ate my /boot today, still trying to patch things up...
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Damiano	anyone there?
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s15y	thanks to gcsimon, but that did not work (or I missed the exact qt3 library to install).
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MutantTurkey	anyone getting crashes with our gtk-qt-engine and nm-applet?
MutantTurkey	starting to think we need a "integration" section on the bug tracker.
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s15y	gcsimon: thanks for your advice. Unfortunately I was not able to find the library having the symbol and I'm back to 3.5.12.
_Pete_	hi
_Pete_	I have wierd problem
_Pete_	after trinity install on ubuntu 11.10 64bit the 32bit binaries dont work anymore
_Pete_	ia32-libs is installed
_Pete_	any clue what might be wrong?
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 607 filed by ignaz.forster@gmx.de.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=607 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Kicker doesn't show windows with size <= 5 pixels
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MutantTurkey	sup schreiberstein
schreiberstein	Hi MutantTurkey! I'm fine and I'll go to a big opensource convention in germany tomorrow... and you?
MutantTurkey	very cool!
MutantTurkey	good, today is friday, I am going to a concert this evening
schreiberstein	which band/artist?
MutantTurkey	The Deer Hunter and Manchester Orchestra (not an actual orchestra
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_Pete_	MutantTurkey: hey, you remember the wine thing I ranted yesterday?
MutantTurkey	eh
MutantTurkey	nope
MutantTurkey	oh wait maybe
MutantTurkey	sorry terrible memory + been reading about wine all day.
MutantTurkey	trying to get my age of empires to play :P
_Pete_	17:16 < MobileTurkey> _Pete_: is that possible? maybe your path is wrong, or wine is installed somewhere else.
MutantTurkey	is it so/
MutantTurkey	?
_Pete_	well
MutantTurkey	did you do what i suggested?
_Pete_	whhen I did dig it deeper
MutantTurkey	go on...
_Pete_	looks like after installing trinity
_Pete_	to my 64bit machine
_Pete_	the 32bit programs wont run anymore
MutantTurkey	well they normally wouldn't
MutantTurkey	unless you had the compatabilty libraries
_Pete_	yes I do
MutantTurkey	(I know archlinux makes this easy - not sure elsewhere)
_Pete_	and do before and after
MutantTurkey	how do we know it is trinity related?
_Pete_	that is the wierdest bit
MutantTurkey	do you have another DE to test?
_Pete_	I know it from that
_Pete_	I have not installed enything than trinity
_Pete_	and before that it worked
_Pete_	after it didnt
MutantTurkey	it is possible that during the install it uninstalled some required libraries or installed some bad ones
MutantTurkey	what happens if you run a 32bit app from a console?
MutantTurkey	tty'
_Pete_	the same
MutantTurkey	errors?
_Pete_	it just says file format not eregonzieed
_Pete_	e.g. the system really knows that
MutantTurkey	hmmmm
MutantTurkey	what distro is this?
_Pete_	ubuntu
MutantTurkey	_Pete_: I have 32bit apps running well on my boxes
MutantTurkey	Ubuntu what version?
_Pete_	latest
MutantTurkey	I havent used it
MutantTurkey	not sure what to say :x
_Pete_	this is almost as strange as the vuze thing
MutantTurkey	no vuze makes sense
MutantTurkey	our kgtk wrapper has problems definitely.
MutantTurkey	that is a _known_ issue
MutantTurkey	hopefully closing many-a-bug this release and hopefully some related to it
_Pete_	I dont consider this a bug
_Pete_	as the only place it can be reproducible is my machine
MutantTurkey	can you reproduce it on a VM / other box
_Pete_	not sure
_Pete_	and even tough
_Pete_	virtual machines doesn present the real hw I have
MutantTurkey	true
MutantTurkey	but if you have a 64bit VM...
_Pete_	http://corei7.serveirc.com/phpsysinfo/index.php?disp=dynamic
_Pete_	this is exactly what I have
MutantTurkey	website sucks.
MutantTurkey	is that 8core?
_Pete_	no
MutantTurkey	?
MutantTurkey	4 core + ht?
_Pete_	yes
MutantTurkey	nice
MutantTurkey	you use dydns?
MutantTurkey	LOLOLOL
MutantTurkey	http://freedns.afraid.org/
MutantTurkey	I use this, it's quite nice
MutantTurkey	though now I get my dns through my provider.
MutantTurkey	_Pete_: though nice stats, what kind of box is it?
_Pete_	its just my home computer
MutantTurkey	:) cool
MutantTurkey	I really am thinking about investing in a nice server
MutantTurkey	but I'd honestly like to get something sparc based, but that'll never happen :P
_Pete_	sparc is cool architehcture
MutantTurkey	definitely
_Pete_	oldest one I own is sparcstation 4
MutantTurkey	I am a young'un so i dont have much in the way of old hardware
MutantTurkey	my TV is from 87 if that counts :P
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_Pete_	:D
_Pete_	so you must know amiga?
MutantTurkey	I know of amiga
MutantTurkey	I hear they are making new ones....?
_Pete_	yess
MutantTurkey	http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_AboutAmiga.aspx
_Pete_	but I used to use one untiöl so late
_Pete_	that 1998
MutantTurkey	1998 i barely remember:P
_Pete_	then you are surprised
_Pete_	that I first got my internet acceess
MutantTurkey	hehe
_Pete_	about around 1989
MutantTurkey	1989 yeesh
MutantTurkey	<btw debugging kickoff sucks>
_Pete_	I am born in 1972
_Pete_	and have one child
MutantTurkey	who is probably as old as I am...
_Pete_	which unfortunatelly is still not as linux guru as I am
_Pete_	... he is 7 years old
MutantTurkey	ah :P
MutantTurkey	well then I am older than at least somebody!
_Pete_	well anyway
_Pete_	I dont think this comes to age
_Pete_	but to attitude
MutantTurkey	what sort of attitude?
MutantTurkey	being to serious can be bad, being to mean can be bad, being to friendly and annoying can be bad. being over zealous can be bad as well as over confidence.
MutantTurkey	All things must be done in moderation.
MutantTurkey	</wisemanoncesaid>
* Strangelv could feel older than he does listening to this conversation. HE's not much older than _Pete_
MutantTurkey	lol :p
_Pete_	good point
Strangelv	If I'd better understood what someone was telling me about, I could have had a .mil email address in 1990
* MutantTurkey have had gmail started in beta
MutantTurkey	but wayy back in beta.
MutantTurkey	friends dad had hookups with google or something, rich indian kid. very nice family. mom made great curry
* MutantTurkey now is craving indian food.
MutantTurkey	>_>
* Strangelv hands MutantTurkey an Amy's Kitchen Mattar Paneer frozen entree
* _Pete_ thinks gordon ramsey is best chef
* Xu_R is eating ramen
MutantTurkey	Xu_R:yeah I am craving some cup o noodles
Xu_R	:P
* Strangelv misses being abel to get away with pasta. He's not sure what teh problem is, but he's suspecting the gluten
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: probably the gluten
Strangelv	"I've yet to find a rice pasta I've been abel to consistently drain before it turns to mush, and anything that's predominantly corn just doesn't wokr at any level even if
Strangelv	I can drain it befoer it completely dissolves
MutantTurkey	found cup of noodles in closet - legit
* Strangelv files a trouble ticket on quinoa pasta at bugs.trinitydesktop.org
_Pete_	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4rKduXPC-8
Xu_R	xD
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MutantTurkey	daylights savings is totally messing with my mind
Strangelv	"It's very effective at that if you're in tune to a 24 hour day
* Strangelv points to a pathologically cheerful authority figure eccstatically declaring a few short months from now, "It's Spring Forward Time!"
MutantTurkey	my day is terribly inconsistant
MutantTurkey	2 days a week i sleep in till noon, 2 days I am up at 7, another day at 5:30 and the weekends are always different
Strangelv	I rotate forwards
Strangelv	The rate is less consistent than it used to be and has slowed down over the years
Strangelv	Once upon oa time I would have been a good candidate for https://www.xkcd.com/320/
MutantTurkey	ilya, slap.
MutantTurkey	was thinking that earlier
tbottu	10neptunia@mail.ru changed the Status on bug 521 from NEW to RESOLVED WONTFIX.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=521 normal, P5, ---, anixxsus, RESOLVED WONTFIX, Trinity networking breaks with network-manager 0.9
* Strangelv scratches his head
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Strangelv	"the note at the bottom says 'I am not a Trinity developer. I will not fix it in Trinity.'
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 521 from RESOLVED WONTFIX to REOPENED.
Xu_R	I know
Xu_R	wtf.
MutantTurkey	lol
* Strangelv claps
* MutantTurkey golf clap
Xu_R	you go tim! :D
MutantTurkey	wait good news
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l0ner	hello
MutantTurkey	hey l0ner
MutantTurkey	whats up doode
l0ner	not much
l0ner	i'm trying to compile arts
MutantTurkey	and?
l0ner	for now nothing, i just started my vm
MutantTurkey	cool
l0ner	but i know it will fail
l0ner	i'm getting this kind of feeling
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Component on bug 583 from kdelibs to debian.
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net changed the Status on bug 583 from NEW to RESOLVED FIXED.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=583 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, [kdelibs] startkde fails because of undefined symbol _ZN7QObject18childrenListObjectEv
l0ner	cmake: libltdl not found
l0ner	i knew it
l0ner	same err as i got prevoius time
l0ner	time to fill bugreport
l0ner	and send mail to maillist
MutantTurkey	do you have it intsalled?
l0ner	nope
MutantTurkey	install it then...
l0ner	clean arch vm
MutantTurkey	install libltdl then?
MutantTurkey	seems self evident
l0ner	oh, libltdl is present in system
MutantTurkey	oh
l0ner	look at the end of cmakelists for arts
l0ner	and you'll get it
MutantTurkey	ok
l0ner	it seems libltdl was some part of arts
MutantTurkey	let me see
MutantTurkey	then how have compiled it succesfully?
l0ner	it first line of project subdirsin cmakelists
l0ner	not compiled at all
l0ner	i have libltdl form packman
l0ner	but i don't think it's the same thing
l0ner	afk
MutantTurkey	I see it
MutantTurkey	not sure
MutantTurkey	what is the error you get? pastebin please
l0ner	http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/506509/
l0ner	cmake output
MutantTurkey	l0ner: hmmm
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	remove the line add_subdirectory that references it
l0ner	did
l0ner	and got compilation errors
l0ner	http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/504813/
l0ner	showed this to samelian couple days ago
l0ner	he said the make errors are related
MutantTurkey	weird
MutantTurkey	I dont understand
MutantTurkey	does that directory exist?
l0ner	nope
l0ner	and i removed old trinity code i pulled form svn
l0ner	so i can't checkif it existed before
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l0ner	samelian: remember my problems with compiling arts?
samelian	l0ner: I supose :)
samelian	why?
l0ner	i found trinity code i pulled from svn just before freeze
l0ner	and there in arts dir i found libltdl
l0ner	which is missing right now both from svn and git
l0ner	i put it back in arts and compiling went just fine
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l0ner	later I'll gzip it and send to dev maillist with explanations
Qu4Z	What's the latest update re: trinity on gentoo? Is it still "Follow the build from source instructions on the wiki"?
Xu_R	samelian: it's been a while since I had time to package...
Xu_R	samelian: we do NOT use -DCMAKE_SKIP_RPATH=ON, right?
samelian	Xu_R: right, at least in packages wich compile generators needed for building
Xu_R	ok
Xu_R	that's practically everything ported to cmake right now :P
samelian	not really, I think CMAKE_SKIP_RPATH should be OFF just in kdelibs and kdebase
Xu_R	oh. ok.
Xu_R	just those two?
samelian	yes
Xu_R	ok
samelian	Xu_R: read my appeal to for freedom of speech :)
Xu_R	saw it :)
samelian	I hope my english is good enough, I'm pretty angry now :)
Xu_R	hehe
Xu_R	it's good, don't worry
samelian	I don't care about difference between KDE:KDE3 and Trinity, but censorhip make me very unhappy
Xu_R	yea... I can understand...
KingSphinx	Censorship? You mean how Trinity's gonna have to rename most of its stuff?
Xu_R	o_o?
samelian	no, is about ban Ilya
l0ner	whats with that?
samelian	seems that Tim banned Ilya :)
l0ner	for which reason?
samelian	hard to say
Xu_R	aggrevation to the point of insanity >_>
l0ner	uh, i see some heavy talk between them in the mailinglist
l0ner	but right now im TLDR
Xu_R	at least for me... and that's because I have to witness two mailing lists >_>
l0ner	dev and user?
samelian	I just ignored the thread
Xu_R	no
Xu_R	trinity-devel
Xu_R	and opensuse-factory
l0ner	uh
samelian	Ilya maintain KDE3 repo for Suse
l0ner	ok
l0ner	i'll read the maillist later
l0ner	to know what happened
samelian	for me seems like a fight between two teenagers
samelian	and bigger teenager killed the another one :)
l0ner	can't judge right now
l0ner	lol
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l0ner	i sent message to the dev list
samelian	I saw it
l0ner	good
samelian	at this moment only Tim have commit rights to git repo
l0ner	well, so we should wait till he sees it
l0ner	can I compile tdelibs without cups support?
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tjfriese	I am trying to install Trinity on AMD64 Kubuntu 11.10 and get errors when I apt-get update. Is this a known issue?
tjfriese	for example: Failed to fetch http://ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-buildeps-v3.5.13/kubuntu/dists/oneiric/main/binary-i386/Packages  404  Not Found
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Space_Man	looks like tjfriese messed up his / her sources
Space_Man	trinity-builddeps-v3.5.13 has 2 d's
Space_Man	there isn't a kubuntu release, only a ubuntu or debian version
Z_God	Space_Man: kubuntu == ubuntu with a different set of default packages
Z_God	and it seems there are still mirror issues somehow
Z_God	or not all packages were built correctly
Z_God	ah
Z_God	I see the mistake
Z_God	it seems he also changed the url from ubuntu to kubuntu
Z_God	it should always stay ubuntu of course
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 608 filed by iang@austonley.org.uk.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=608 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Debian sudo components have been built with Ubuntu semantics
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gvy	hi folks, a probably silly question: after upgrade from 3.5.10 to 3.5.13svn (there was no release at package build time yet) the desktop icons became undraggable
gvy	couldn't find the control center knob so far (or google a config file snippet)
Z_God	gvy: that should happen
Z_God	shouldn't*
Z_God	you've built trinity on altlinux?
gvy	Z_God, heh, I've moved ~/.kde aside for both users but for one of them, copied .kde/share/apps/kdesktop/IconPositions back and the existing icons were at least on their usual places (which is an issue on 1600x1200 as you might guess :) -- but they're still unmovable (round circle mouse cursor)
Z_God	gvy: strange, this is not supposed to happen
Z_God	I don't know the default config directory btw when building from sources, most packages seem to be using ~/.trinity
gvy	re "on altlinux", yes, it's altlinux package set by Sergey Turchin (zerg@) although he told that he rather moves on and so I consider taking over the packages
Z_God	&#1093;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1096;&#1086; :)
gvy	well, I let the upgraded code reinitalize user configuration hopefully from scratch
Z_God	it sounds like a permissions problem to me
gvy	erm, repeat pls, changed charset to utf8 :)
Z_God	I know that KDE3 would also disable UI when it did not have write permissions to the relevant config files
Z_God	&#1103; &#1085;&#1072;&#1087;&#1080;&#1089;&#1072;&#1083;: &#1093;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1096;&#1086; ;)
gvy	&#1072; :)
gvy	hm, the initialization was done with the target user permissions but thanks for the hint' I'll recheck that
Z_God	this is not supposed to happen then...
Z_God	gvy: if this does not solve the issue, maybe you could kill the kdesktop process & start it from a konsole
Z_God	maybe it will print some errors
gvy	ok; the console errors get logged (~/.xsession-errors$DISPLAY) here, so far there wasn't any criminal there to me
gvy	maybe strace will tell more
Z_God	the permissions are all ok?
gvy	lemme check...
gvy	~/.kde for sure, checking the whole homedirs
gvy	there are some external symlinks though, and I'll chgrp those .desktop files which belong to one of user's groups but not to his private one just in case (there's no sense in those group perms in the first place)
Z_God	I would expect the block to occur of the IconPositions file is readonly
Z_God	if*
gvy	at least file permissions are 0600 user:user...
gvy	well, I'll try strace probably
Z_God	gvy: alright, it'll be interesting to hear what causes this...
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MutantTurkey	morning all
gvy	hi
* gvy . o O ( it was 17 o'clock in the morning though )
MutantTurkey	:P
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ZenWalker	hi
ZenWalker	trinity desktop is on debian repositories?
MutantTurkey	yes :)
MutantTurkey	http://trinitydesktop.org/installation.php#debian
Z_God	gvy: 17 only? where are you located?
MutantTurkey	Z_God: can you make the meeting on the 15th?
Z_God	MutantTurkey: I think yes
Z_God	we differ 6 hours right?
Z_God	it's 16:23 here now
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MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	that is why I set it in exactly the middle of the day
MutantTurkey	its 10:37AM here
MutantTurkey	8 hour difference
MutantTurkey	surely 8PM is not to late for you?
Z_God	ah then it'll be np :)
Z_God	no, I just hoped it would not be after midnight
Z_God	Russia is 3 hours ahead of us now, so it will already be 11PM there
Z_God	I don't know if there are people located in Asia that would participate?
MutantTurkey	I know of none
Z_God	I kind of hope Ilya can also participate
MutantTurkey	we need to rewrite our "about" section on the website
MutantTurkey	make some goal clear
MutantTurkey	in light of some recent ML coversation
Z_God	I think he could contribute at least some viewpoints
Z_God	yes also that
MutantTurkey	Z_God: if he stops being a brickheaded stubbon person on the subject
MutantTurkey	Personally I don't think he's even tried TDE
MutantTurkey	that being said he is a immense resource and a valuable asset so I don't want to thow him off the boat
Z_God	he seems more rude than he probably is
MutantTurkey	I thought so at first
Z_God	it's also due to the language barrier
MutantTurkey	language barrier,
MutantTurkey	but no.
MutantTurkey	I thin knot.
MutantTurkey	it's always a hostile tone
Z_God	this is the difference in language
MutantTurkey	and its not the tone as much as he blasphemes trinity on our own mailing lists, promotes his failing KDE:KDE3 repostory
MutantTurkey	Z_God: I think not, his content is always angry
Z_God	yes, this was a clear mistake
MutantTurkey	but it's nothing new
Z_God	in his initial mail yesterday, he was interested in our reponse to the criticism from the kwin dev, which we had already been working on
Z_God	I think he could really contribute there with his viewpoint
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	and api compatibility is not my strongpoint
MutantTurkey	BUT this is open source, you need to be respectful
Z_God	we should not forget that the TQt makeover is a huge one and it's understandable that some packagers may not immediately want to copt that
Z_God	copy*
Z_God	especially since so far the advantages are not really visible yet
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Z_God	I need to pick up my laundry now, I'll bbl
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	right
MutantTurkey	Z_God: that is why we are privately packaging now...
MutantTurkey	Xu_R:want to setup the meetbot?
gvy	Z_God, .kiev.ua (+0200)
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Iguleder	hello
Iguleder	I have a question - do I have to subscribe to the mailing lists in order to use them? I have sent a message and I don't see it in the web archive
MutantTurkey	you need to be subscribed to send a message
MutantTurkey	afaik
MutantTurkey	actually almost certainly
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: sure
Iguleder	what about write access to the repositories?
Iguleder	I'm a distro developer and I'd like to commit my build scripts
Xu_R	you ask Tim about that; he controls all access
Xu_R	tde-packaging is the only repo not frozen, so you can still commit there :P
Iguleder	yeah, I noticed that :)
_Pete_	hi all
Iguleder	btw, MutantTurkey - your PKGBUILDs are amazing
_Pete_	so still no idea what has broken my 32bit exes not to run?
_Pete_	I am quite sure it something in trinity
Iguleder	ldd them
_Pete_	doesnt help
Iguleder	lol, of course it doesn't
Iguleder	ldd is useful to reveal missing library problems
Iguleder	what binary is it and what exactly did you install?
_Pete_	then why you suggest to use that?
Iguleder	because maybe you removed some library and now it doesn't run because of that
_Pete_	ok
_Pete_	but yes the problem is still the same
gcsimon	if "ldd -r" shos no problems, the binary should run. ldd "dlopen()"'s it, and that works, the shells should also be able to run them
_Pete_	after installing trinity to ubuntu 11.10 64bit
_Pete_	the 32bit programs dont work any more
Iguleder	any 32-bit executable?
gcsimon	what error messages to you get?
Xu_R	um... that's because of Ubuntu's changes IIRC
Xu_R	see their release notes, I do remember seeing mention of removal of 32-bit support
MutantTurkey	Iguleder: thanks :)
Xu_R	on 64-bit systems
Iguleder	they have that multiarch thingy
_Pete_	gcsimon: like trying to run wine
Xu_R	but that was removed in 11.10. I think there's mention in the release notes
_Pete_	$ /usr/bin/winee
_Pete_	bash: /usr/bin/winee: No such file or directory
Xu_R	I might be wrong though
Iguleder	wasn't multiarch added in the latest version?
MutantTurkey	wait new idea
gcsimon	ld missing for 32bit
MutantTurkey	wait!
Iguleder	I remember I read Debian's plans for Wheezy and multiarch was there
Xu_R	hm... that's Debian though, not Ubuntu...
MutantTurkey	could it have to do with libltdl?
Iguleder	Ubuntu inherited that feature
gcsimon	there shoudl be a file /lib/ld-xxxx.so
Xu_R	is he missing a package for multiarch support?
_Pete_	no
Xu_R	that could be another reason
Xu_R	oh.
gcsimon	he is missing the dynamic linker for 32bit
MutantTurkey	libltdl is modified for TDE
Iguleder	check whether the loader exists ... lol
MutantTurkey	"Libtool provides a small library, called libltdl, that aims at hiding the various difficulties of dlopening libraries from programmers."
MutantTurkey	could it be related?
gcsimon	dunno
MutantTurkey	Iguleder: what distro are you looking to packaging?
Iguleder	isn't libtool used only for dynamic plugin loading?
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: ketsgoo
Iguleder	MutantTurkey: Puppy, but I can also help with others
gcsimon	but without an dynamic linker (ld)O for 32bit. 32bit apps won't work - except static binaries...
MutantTurkey	cool
_Pete_	and I still repeat
MutantTurkey	cool cool
Iguleder	MutantTurkey: I've used Arch, Slackware and others, the only ones I'll have to study thoroughly are DEB-based once, since I'm not a Debian developer :)
gcsimon	_Pete: you should have a similary named file in /lib64/ld-xxxxx.so
_Pete_	everything worked fine before trinity install
MutantTurkey	Iguleder: I see. how'd you run across the pkgbuilds?
MutantTurkey	AUR?
Iguleder	MutantTurkey: I had trouble with kdelibs, so I took a look at yours - I read the Arch wiki and follow the AUR regularly
MutantTurkey	:)
MutantTurkey	good
MutantTurkey	it's not yet commited in tde-packagers though
MutantTurkey	cant remember my git password :| LOL
gcsimon	_Pete_: i have /lib64/ld-2.11.1.so and /lib/ld-2.11.1.so  do your have these files (or similar ones) too?
Iguleder	Slackware's SlackBuild's are too complex and somewhat hacky, while yours follow the KISS principle :)
MutantTurkey	:D
MutantTurkey	I try to keep it vanilla.
_Pete_	gcsimon: I have the package ialibs-32 or something
MutantTurkey	thats the arch way.
Iguleder	same here :)
_Pete_	befpre trinitu it was enough
Iguleder	kinda funny that having a 100% vanilla system works better than a rock-solid Debian
_Pete_	not anymore
Z_God	gvy: I already though Ukraine :) I'll be in Kharkov next month!
gcsimon	_Pete_: that alone doesn't mean the files exist
MutantTurkey	Iguleder: there is a meeting on the 15th at noon EST. could you attend? it's for developers and packagers
Iguleder	MutantTurkey: nope, I won't be home, but I'll read the summary
_Pete_	gcsimon: I did apt-get --reinstall install that package
gcsimon	_Pete_: i'm not one of the dev's so i don't know ehat exactly happend. but i know enoug to say: without a "ld-xxxx.so" in /lib/ 32bit apps won't work
_Pete_	they sure must exists
Iguleder	_Pete_: try to run a static 32-bit binary
Iguleder	like cdebootstrap or busybox-static
_Pete_	url?
Iguleder	packages.ubuntu.com
Iguleder	if this works, it means something about the loader is screwed up ... or maybe, you have no loader :)
_Pete_	what I have tried is
_Pete_	I have vm running 32bit
_Pete_	copied zip exe from that
MutantTurkey	Iguleder: okay, well I suggest you mail into the devel list and announce your willingneso package
_Pete_	it is not working
Xu_R	_Pete_: wait, exe?
Xu_R	_Pete_: is this a windows executable?
_Pete_	...
_Pete_	no
Iguleder	MutantTurkey: will do :)
gcsimon	_Pete_: can you run "ls /lib/ld-*", what is the output?
Iguleder	_Pete_: /usr/bin/zip should be dynamically-linked
_Pete_	Iguleder: ok, can you name one binary that is not, which comes with ubuntu ?
gcsimon	:D
Iguleder	go to packages.ubuntu.com and search for "-static"
MutantTurkey	Iguleder: awesome! welcome aboard comrade
Iguleder	I know of cdebootstrap-static and busybox-static
Iguleder	MutantTurkey: lol ... thank you :)
MutantTurkey	_Pete_: I am sure this is more of an ubuntu problem then related to trinity :P
_Pete_	ok so to ge this more clear
MutantTurkey	which makes me wonder how the install of trinity affected it
Iguleder	I still don't get it - why are you afraid to run a static binary?
_Pete_	if I compile simple "hello world" in 32bit
MutantTurkey	nothing wrong with static
MutantTurkey	http://sta.li
Iguleder	your loader could be messed up
_Pete_	os that static or not?
Iguleder	that's the first thing to check if the libraries are indeed there
gcsimon	_Pete_: a simple hello world app is dynamic linked agains a several libs
_Pete_	ok then
gcsimon	_Pete_: c-runtime libs (glibc) for example
MutantTurkey	did you read up on the Ubuntu multiarch wikipage?
Iguleder	gcc -static is the answer
_Pete_	is there any *simple* way to compile static hello world?
gcsimon	_Pete_: unless you tell your compiler (gcc/g++) "-static"
gcsimon	_Pete_: simply add "-static" to your gcc/g++ command line you use for compiling
Iguleder	#include <stdio.h>\nint main(){ printf("hello world"); return 0; }
Iguleder	run gcc -static on this one
Iguleder	_Pete_: how do you intend to compile that, btw? are you using some sort of cross-compiler?
_Pete_	As said I have both 32bit and 64bit system running
_Pete_	later is host for other
gcsimon	x64 gcc/g++ can cross comile to x86 (-m32 commandline option)
_Pete_	hmm ok
_Pete_	so when I did compile dummy C with 32bit system and -static
_Pete_	it did run on the problem 64bit system
Iguleder	now try to omit "-static"
Iguleder	if libtool/ld are messed up, it won't run
_Pete_	the c being
_Pete_	$ cat test.c
_Pete_	int  main()
_Pete_	{ return 0;
_Pete_	}
MutantTurkey	Iguleder: didnt I mention we have a modified version
MutantTurkey	of it
Iguleder	MutantTurkey: yep, you did
_Pete_	Iguleder: now the some happens
_Pete_	if compiled without -static
gcsimon	_Pete_: no such file.... ?
_Pete_	its unknown executable
_Pete_	yes
gcsimon	_Pete_: again: what does ls /lib/ld-* shows?
Iguleder	do you use a vanilla kernel?
Iguleder	maybe it's a 64-bit kernel without IA32 emulation
_Pete_	that' what I said from start
_Pete_	the ialibs is installed
gcsimon	_Pete_: sorry must have missed it
_Pete_	and did work fine befire trinity
gcsimon	_Pete_: no no not the package, does the file actually exist? could have been deleted
_Pete_	what file ?
gcsimon	_Pete_: /lib/ld-*
_Pete_	petria@i7:/pub/tmp$ cd /lib
_Pete_	petria@i7:/lib$ ls -lh | grep ld
_Pete_	petria@i7:/lib$
_Pete_	yes they are missing
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gcsimon	_Pete_: /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 MUST EXIST. if it doesn't screw it. so here the problem lies.
gcsimon	_Pete_: no ld for 32bit - no dynamic linked apps for 32bit
gcsimon	_Pete_: i don't know which packe provides this file. but you need that file
Iguleder	that's why static stuff run, no need for the dynamic loader
Iguleder	libc6 should provide it as far as I remember
_Pete_	gcsimon: that is not there
Xu_R	this all boils down to a missing package again, probably
_Pete_	and I am pretty sure it vanished during trinity install
Iguleder	is it a 32-bit Trinity?
_Pete_	no
_Pete_	64bit
gcsimon	_Pete_: well, whyever it vanished.... one you get ld for 32bit, 32bit apps should work again
_Pete_	ok but this is just wierd
Iguleder	could be another wonderful package conflict
_Pete_	did reinstall again
_Pete_	root@i7:/var/cache/apt/archives# dpkg -i ./ia32-libs_20090808ubuntu26_amd64.deb
_Pete_	and still after that
_Pete_	32bit is not working
Iguleder	check whether you have ld
Xu_R	oh wait a minute
Xu_R	is there a /lib32 folder on your system, _Pete_
Xu_R	?
Xu_R	I just decided to lookup that ia32 package you wanted to install...
Xu_R	and I get a variety of libraries in /lib32
_Pete_	Xu_R: yes it is there
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damiano_	hey everyone
damiano_	Z_God, there?
Z_God	yes
damiano_	:)
damiano_	i'm back for assistance...
damiano_	but you know what...
damiano_	for some reason this thing dissappeard...
damiano_	i mean.. it seems to be fine now.
_Pete_	Ok I will give up for now
damiano_	i startup skype while playing something - ok. I go to skype sound settings (usually that makes sound shut off) - all fine.
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Aquarius	sorry.. it's me :)
Z_God	seems good :)
Aquarius	yeah... but it's weird.
Aquarius	i tried to mess with dmix and stuff but it didn't work so i just disconnected hdd and put it away.
Z_God	maybe you got an update, I don't know
Aquarius	perhaps..
Aquarius	i also tried openSUSE
Aquarius	looks nice, but kinda complicated a bit.
Z_God	when things are working at the same time, you're on dmix
Aquarius	yeah, but why it didn't work before?!
Z_God	dunno
Z_God	I have to start cooking now...
Z_God	I'll bbl
Aquarius	ok man
Aquarius	see ya.
Z_God	yo
Aquarius	man... i would never dare to re-install it...
Aquarius	it's fatal
Aquarius	if only i knew how i managed to make it work normally..
gvy	then backup the thing
gvy	and sleep well
gvy	for some value of well
Aquarius	exactly
Aquarius	that was pricely what i was about to do
Aquarius	precisely*
Aquarius	now i'm afraid to make any redundant moves) So bad i've been longing for this to happen.. who knows, maybe if i restart it will be all gone ;)
Aquarius	but hopefully not.
gcsimon	;-)
gcsimon	have faith!
Aquarius	doing my best ;)
gcsimon	you had this sound-problem, right?
gvy	Aquarius, you might have had something trying to grab OSS dsp (it would do that exclusively)
gvy	just in case you catch the greedy app, wrapping it with aoss might help :)
Aquarius	maybe.... i dunno what i did.. i tried to force dmix.. but it didn't help
Aquarius	skype uses now "default" device anyway
Aquarius	all of those are marked as "default" as initially it was.
Aquarius	but it works though differently now.
Aquarius	let me check for any .conf leftovers.. maybe i didn't delete everything..
gvy	I'd do something like lsof | grep /dev/snd/ or fuser -vv /dev/dsp
gvy	but that's rather alsa-specific, not tde-specific...
Xu_R	_Pete_: IIRC ia32-libs only work for existing programs packaged for ubuntu
Xu_R	there is no multilib anymore.
Xu_R	so there is no way to run 32-bit programs on Ubuntu :|
Aquarius	i'm not using TDE for a while.
Xu_R	(at least, dynamically)
_Pete_	Xu_R: wtf ?
Xu_R	_Pete_: well, they don't provide a 32-bit ld for x86_64 now, so there is no way.
Xu_R	bbiab, people
gcsimon	i might be mistaken, but is wine not 32bit-only program?
gcsimon	would mean wine will never work on 64bit ubuntu?
gcsimon	ähm. wait. I have a 32bit ld on my 64bit ubuntu box!
gcsimon	is there a way i can find out which package provided it?
_Pete_	yes it is
gcsimon	but this package would be the one _Pete_ needs
_Pete_	and that is why I noticed this in first place
gcsimon	how?
gcsimon	how do i find the package (i'm new to apt and synapic)
jumpship	look into apt-file or apt-cache to find out which pkg a file belongs to
_Pete_	well, I am game addicted
_Pete_	like to play LFS and GT5
_Pete_	but first wont work withouth wine
Iguleder	I like to play Linux from Scratch :)
_Pete_	that's good optiotn too :)
gcsimon	were do i find these files? (really completly new to apt)
jumpship	um... on sec, been a while
_Pete_	files installedd
_Pete_	or files in package?
gcsimon	i keep a windows arround box here... just in case.... ;-)
jumpship	try "dpkg -S <file>"
gcsimon	root@ws-trinity:~# dpkg -S /lib/ld-2.11.1.so
gcsimon	libc6: /lib/ld-2.11.1.so
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gcsimon	it's an ubuntu-server LTS by the way
_Pete_	so what are you suggesting?
gcsimon	i assume libc6 is installed?
_Pete_	for some reason yet unknown
_Pete_	the abowsé command yield no result
gcsimon	so... libc6 is not installed?
_Pete_	I am very uncertaub to think that
_Pete_	as said
_Pete_	everything did work
_Pete_	before trinity
gcsimon	can you force an reinstall of libc6? if so, do it. maybe it will fix the missing files
_Pete_	yes that can be tried
_Pete_	but I am guite sure
_Pete_	problem is somewhere else
jumpship	could try here:
jumpship	http://packages.ubuntu.com/
_Pete_	one thing is
_Pete_	I have not booted the machine
_Pete_	as it should not
_Pete_	but that would be no problem
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gcsimon	dunno. maybe it won't boot again - with a missing ld-x86....
MutantTurkey	Iguleder: any progress on the 32bit issue?
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_Pete_	this system has been booting fine since it was installed X years ago
gcsimon	ld 32bit is missing, thats for sure. libc6 provides it. i think _Pete_ should try reinstalling libc6
_Pete_	I see no reason trinity desktop would break that
gcsimon	well i wouldn't know that. trinity is quite complex. many packages involved and possibly others affected. maybe apt considered that the file is no longer required, and removed it. i don't know. i used suse and yast before, and i was in constant warfare with rpm and package management.
Iguleder	no ld :)
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Iguleder	btw, is there any work being done to remove Trinity's dependency on HAL?
Iguleder	I was thinking, maybe a library could be written to provide hardware abstraction with two backends, HAL and udev - much like tqtinterface
_Pete_	why is this needed ?
_Pete_	for me, this is purely pro guestion
_Pete_	I have been doing linux dev for many yaears
_Pete_	but stilll to come kde3 is best UI
Iguleder	MutantTurkey: do you remember what Trinity packages depend on HAL?
Z_God	_Pete_: you cannot not have libc6 and be using that system ;)
Z_God	not having it would break pretty much every program
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MutantTurkey	Fat-Zer_:  l0ner: samelian: Strangelv: We are having a meeting November 15th at 12pm (noon) EST.
MutantTurkey	can any of it make it?
l0ner	i can
l0ner	as for now
MutantTurkey	awesome!
l0ner	:)
MutantTurkey	check out the etherpad page about it
MutantTurkey	http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/15
l0ner	ok, looking at it now
MutantTurkey	do you have an account?
l0ner	unfortunately nope
Xu_R	the request an account link should work
l0ner	requested :)
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: does darrell anderson have a IRC nick?
Xu_R	no, he doesn't :|
MutantTurkey	okay
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Xu_R	...
Xu_R	oh wow, my xchat just reconnected >>;;
l0ner	don't know anything about xchat
l0ner	I use konversation
Xu_R	oic :P
l0ner	i prefer using apps from kde3/trinity rather than other ones
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Fat-Zer	MutantTurkey: sorry, I can't. I even not sure that i'll will visit it... btw i'm not looked into the trinity since release...
Aquarius	ok, i'm back
Aquarius	can anyone tell me why VLC refuses to be my default multimedia player?
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Aquarius	i mean.. i've associated it with multimedia formats in "Open with..." thing, but it ignores and uses Totem instead.
l0ner	try removing totem
l0ner	from what I remember totem is pretty unusable
Aquarius	hm...
Aquarius	ok...
KingSphinx	Totem's not so bad... in its native environment (GNOME). Otherwise, it's pretty terrible.
Aquarius	and you think that'd force vlc to become default player?
l0ner	maybe, it's worth trying
Aquarius	yeah, it's not that bad, but a bit uncomfortable. And i find VLC prettier a bit.
Aquarius	i'd like to leave it there actually.
l0ner	maybe you have some part of gonme on which totem is based sealing requests to use vlc
l0ner	*stealing
Aquarius	maybe, but i've checked all the places and preffered applications and stuff... still ignores it.
Aquarius	dunno..
l0ner	I used totem once, it didn't had features i needed (like multi audio, or subs) and I moved  to smplayer
KingSphinx	SMPlayer is the exact opposite for me (won't play anything right).
l0ner	lol
l0ner	anyway check trinity control center -> kde components -> file associations
l0ner	search for formats you want and check if vlc is on the top of the list
Aquarius	the thing is.. i'm not using Trinity at the moment.
Aquarius	i'm on gnome.
KingSphinx	And can anyone explain how Fedora's version of KDE 4 is rock-solid and relatively light, yet Kubuntu is not only a RAM hog, but reliably crashes upon shutdown?
l0ner	well, it depends on how the package was built
l0ner	optimizations and so on
Aquarius	KingSphinx, well, because KDE looks (and apparently feels) different on different distributes of linux
Aquarius	anyway... i don't like KDE4... it looks ugly at the very least.
l0ner	I had it on gentoo and it felt like different de than on ubuntu
KingSphinx	From what I can tell, there's no difference in the "Verne" theme and the defailt "Air" theme other than the name.
KingSphinx	And the wallpaper, though that's obvious.
l0ner	Aquarius: agree, by defaults it reassembles too much vista for me, with it's default colors
l0ner	yep, I think it's ugly and not so flexible in customization
KingSphinx	I actually don't mind it, I can actually use the transparency as an indicator as to whether desktop effects are working (none = not working)
l0ner	it was pointed to me that it's easier to write themes for kde4 than it was i kde3
l0ner	but in kde3 i culd change colors for the theme as i wanted
l0ner	in kde4 it's not possible
KingSphinx	That reminds me, I need to add the Fedora Trinity repos.
l0ner	the only thing i liked in kde4 was window change animation
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MutantTurkey	Xu_R: mind if i remove that irrelevant convo ?
Xu_R	go ahead
Z_God	it seemed like the pad itself because a chatbox :P
Z_God	became*
l0ner	lol
l0ner	I has become something between chat and forum
l0ner	*it
Z_God	maybe just create a pad for chatting instead of the channel?
l0ner	lol, IRC->pad migration?
Z_God	it would also give automatic chatlogs
Z_God	yeah :D
Z_God	and you can change other people's stuff ;)
l0ner	lol xD
MutantTurkey	well guys I gotta go.
Z_God	MutantTurkey: see you!
l0ner	cyq
MutantTurkey	keep up the progress on the etherpad :)
l0ner	*cya
MutantTurkey	getting excited for the meetin
Xu_R	later calvin :)
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ZenWalker	Can I install trinity on debian wheezy?
Space_Man	ZenWalker: probably, but you will have to use the instructions http://www.trinitydesktop.org/installation.php#debian for Lenny or Squeeze
Space_Man	Lenny is 3.5.12 and Squeeze is 3.5.13
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 609 filed by sysoevd@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=609 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, konqueror: symbol lookup error: /opt/trinity/lib/libkparts.so.2
tbottu	10kb9vqf@pearsoncomputing.net marked bug 609 as a duplicate of bug 583.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=583 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED FIXED, [kdelibs] startkde fails because of undefined symbol _ZN7QObject18childrenListObjectEv
l0ner	ok, i still can't compile tdelibs on arch
Space_Man	use ubuntu, it's designed for idiots :P
l0ner	well, that is whay i don't use it :P
l0ner	*why
l0ner	i tried building code form git, svn and tarballs
l0ner	same error
ZenWalker	Space_Man: dependency problems
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Aquarius	hey :)
Aquarius	anyone there?
l0ner	hello
Aquarius	oh goodie
l0ner	I'm here, but I'm thinking about going to get some sleep
Aquarius	could you tell me how to change session manager resolution? Cause it's other than my desktop's one.
Aquarius	well.. that's a good thing to think on
l0ner	session manager? You mean kdm?
l0ner	or the you mean resoultion you get at boot?
Aquarius	gdm in my case
Aquarius	kdm in Trinity changes res respectivelly actually.
l0ner	uh, I think it gets resoultion form xorg.conf
Aquarius	hm...
Aquarius	shall i look it up?
l0ner	which should detect it automaticlyy
Aquarius	i mean.. would it be clear to me what to setup there?
Aquarius	well, it doesn't. I mean, it detects it, but doesn't change the res for gdm
l0ner	nope, it's better not to look or touch xorg.conf
Aquarius	strangely though.
Aquarius	i see.
Aquarius	maybe i have to run ATI control center...
Aquarius	but i can't, it requires root privilege... i forgot how i launched it from Terminal..
l0ner	or try runiinig Xorg -configure, backuping old xorg.conf and using one generated
Aquarius	ok... let's see...
Aquarius	Fatal server error:
Aquarius	Server is already active for display 0
l0ner	ok, you need to move to tty, log in, kill gdm, and then do all the magic
Aquarius	damn...
Aquarius	i wish it was less sophisticated))
l0ner	and I'm not sure if it will work
l0ner	yeah, unfortunately it's xorg
Aquarius	well... let's postpone it then...
l0ner	that it's compicated
Aquarius	actually.. many things are kinda nasty in linux ;)
Aquarius	but that's its beauty for some i guess.
l0ner	many thing are outdated or too complicated
Aquarius	yep.
Aquarius	let alone audio... now i agree on that... it's MESS
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Aquarius	Multi Error Sound Sequencer
Aquarius	M.E.S.S.
l0ner	alsa right now is ok, but how it handled, or rather how distro creators can't understand how it works
Aquarius	right here it's also ok, but as i said before, i dunno what fixed it.
Aquarius	and neither i wanna reproduce it
Aquarius	hell NO....
Aquarius	actually PA in latest Ubuntu is also fine.
l0ner	pulseaudio pointed what was broken in alsa, broken dirvers and so on
Aquarius	yeah, but it brought other probs
l0ner	like?
l0ner	the main problem whit pulseaudio is that people don't quite understand how it should be used
l0ner	and install both alsa-tools and pulseaudio
l0ner	and since alsa-tools provide alsa-mixer, which is not only volume control center but is actually a sound mixer
Aquarius	well... for example, with PA audio acted funny. Initially! In most linux based OSs... firstly, i couldn't host conferences in skype, it was stuttering badly.
Aquarius	secondly, it tends to "swallow" some portions of sound sequence in java
l0ner	skype for linux i pretty outdated and uses obscure audio output
Aquarius	it didn't route streams normally either.
Aquarius	well now it's ok!
enderw	i get a not-found error for the repository update in ubuntu oneeric.anyone?
l0ner	maybe ubuntu devs did some hack magic
Aquarius	probably.
Aquarius	actually, PA in Ubuntu is also latest version
Aquarius	in Debian it's 0.9 in Ubuntu it's 1.x or even 2... can't quite remember.
l0ner	maybe latest pa contains some fixes
Aquarius	yeah, that's what i think too.
l0ner	actually i dont use pa right now
l0ner	pure arts
Aquarius	well.. eventually you will
Aquarius	but don't you worry, you'll get no probs.
l0ner	i hope, with time that arts which is a mess will be replaced with something better
Aquarius	for example, i'll have to use it too, 'cause next Debian wheeze is gonna be implemented with PA anyways.
Aquarius	wheezy*
l0ner	either pulse audio for mixer part, or something new
l0ner	i don't use binary distros
l0ner	for me it's either gentoo or arch
Aquarius	PA is improving, so one day people will forget about its former issues.
l0ner	in which i have more control on which my system use
l0ner	let's hope so
Aquarius	they just supplied linux with it a bit too early.
Aquarius	while it was at experimental stage
l0ner	nah, distros decided to include it too early
l0ner	not even distros
l0ner	ubuntu
Aquarius	well yeah, either ways
l0ner	which includes sometimes beta software as stable
enderw	is there a release yet for oneiric?
Aquarius	of what?
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enderw	trinity 3.5.13
Aquarius	yes
Aquarius	and i've even tried it out.
Aquarius	on oneiric. But... had some glitches.
Aquarius	kicker had some crash issue.
Aquarius	but it's me. however, proceed with caution.
Aquarius	install it only if you're sure that in mean case you can remove it painlessly.
Aquarius	3.5.13 has been reported unstable a bit... dunno if they've fixed it yet or not...
enderw	ok, thanks.
Aquarius	i wonder what makes Wine work properly on Debian..
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 610 filed by debian@markus-raab.org.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=610 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, ktorrent (from kde4) crashes when started within trinity
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tbottu	10iang@austonley.org.uk changed the Status on bug 608 from NEW to RESOLVED INVALID.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=608 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, RESOLVED INVALID, Debian sudo components have been built with Ubuntu semantics
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Aquarius	hey everyone
l0ner	hello
Aquarius	hey man
Aquarius	hm.
l0ner	maintenance
Aquarius	l0ner, are you using TDE right now?
l0ner	nope, I'm using kde3.5.10 from kdemod3 on arch
Aquarius	hmm.. how's that?
l0ner	and I'm struggling to build tde
l0ner	hell
Aquarius	ah.. i see :)
l0ner	kdemod3 is hell
l0ner	nothing works as it shold
Aquarius	i see
l0ner	I can't configure most of my desktop because kcontrol broke
Aquarius	well.. seems like you enjoy solving problems ;)
l0ner	and kmail isn't sending mails
Aquarius	i hear ya
Aquarius	is arch fast?
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Aquarius	oh no...
Aquarius	here it comes...
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Aquarius	so we're back.
Aquarius	but for how long...
Aquarius	l0ner, can you tell me is 3.5.13 stable now?
Aquarius	i mean.. is it not at least worse than previous release?
l0ner	nah, I think improvements has been made
Aquarius	ok.
Aquarius	thanks
l0ner	I hadn't tried it yet, because of obvious reasons
Aquarius	i'm on my way to install it... once again
l0ner	good luck ;)
Aquarius	thanks)
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Aquarius	finally.
* Strangelv looks at Martinp23 and says, "Gesundheit."
Strangelv	"I wonder where the blog is
Z_God	probably on the freenode site
Strangelv	I must admit I'm more motivated to look at Opera's EULA some more and try to make sense of it.  It's a bit more difficult to understand than I remember it being the last timei insalled it to something about 4 years ago
l0ner	god... I use opera but never looked at EULA
Strangelv	Or maybe my brain fog was worse than i thought.  It's about third parties, not third party software
Strangelv	So it's someone else using my machine that they want me to micromanage and carefulyl evaluate, not what I plug into Opera
Strangelv	I always look at the EULAs
Strangelv	Which I must admit does help motivate me to install fewer things that have them
l0ner	well, I don't really care... I'm the next, next, next at installation type if user
l0ner	and on linux You have so few apps with eula
Strangelv	I've had it explained to me more than once that I'm almost teh only person in the world who actually reads them
l0ner	that I don't have need to read them
l0ner	maybe not the only
l0ner	but one of the few
l0ner	but it's a good think, you know what devs want from you
l0ner	or rather, the legal section of dev company
Strangelv	I'm more of a 'you really do need to read teh fine print -- and the finer they make it the moer important it is to read it' type of user/customer/borrower/lender/patron/shareholder, et c.
Strangelv	"Many do seem to be written my lawyers with a 'what can we get away with' point of view.  The suits will insist that they'de never enforce such provision,s but even if tehy're truthful, they're not going to be in their positions forever
Strangelv	The ones I hear the most horror stories about are employment contracts
l0ner	well it's works like this i guess
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l0ner	and it's a bad thing
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Strangelv	We need more entreprenaur,s moer employers, and more jobs to choose from so that anyone wanting to present a complicated document and pressure people to 'just sign it' will find it almost impossibel to hire anyone
l0ner	i remember big fuss about something included in photoshop eula that said pretty much that every work created with this software is propriety od the adobe
l0ner	yep, thats true
Strangelv	"cameras that shoot video footage hawve similar problems I'm told.  You're only authorized to use the video footage under a very small set of conditions
Strangelv	I've not heard of teh patent holders for MPEG ever enforcing this, but they could
Strangelv	"I wonder if anypne has a high resolution camera that can shoot MJPEG
l0ner	well, after all the companies that produces tings are nothing more than just a bunch of old, fat and greedy dudes who want nothing more but our money
Strangelv	...whether or not teh patent holders could get it to hold up in court against a sufficiently wvell-funsded defendant would be good to see -- especially if teh test case goes against them.  Patents are insane in the US, and patent armageddon is already starting in teh mobile phone industry, just in slaw motion and with sufficiently well-fended parties that it's not a clear steamroller that decrees that no ene is
Strangelv	allowed to manufacture or sell anything
Strangelv	...which is one of the possibilities that could happen anyway
l0ner	lets wait until this whole system crumbles down, it won't be long
Strangelv	I'm plea'santly astonished that it hasn't already.  I need o be making better use of teh extra time to attempt to prepare
* Strangelv needs to buy a bunch of water bottles and fill them. He also needs more long term stored food
l0ner	world economy (which was based on the money that didn't exist in reality at all) crumbled already, so will other parts of this whole mess
l0ner	I'd rather begun buying gold
l0ner	after everything falls down it will be only thing left with value
l0ner	this or petroil
Strangelv	Patents aren't teh only reason it's slowly crashing down on us.  It's too many things at once.  If it's any consolation, the parties that were hoping ot exploit this to their own ends are watching a decades-long project to create a singular nation-state out of Europe for use as a building block to world control are watching it crack up into pieces in panic and horror
l0ner	you know, i live in europe so i see it form the inside
l0ner	it's a mess
l0ner	I can't understand how it works
l0ner	and why it is still there
l0ner	*here
Strangelv	Silver has the main advantages of gold and several others -- it's rarer, it's used up by a lot of processes that leave it in non-recoverabel trace amounts, and because of price manipulation, we're rapidly running out becaues no one who isn't thinking with a proverbial tin foil hat is thinking to build an inventory of the stuff
Strangelv	At teh end of any month now, COMEX is going to default.  It's possible another silver market could default first, but it's probably the most vulnerable with the most fraudient contracts and lowest inventory and most people trying to pull their seilver out
l0ner	well, we'll see how it will go
l0ner	I'm not that good with al this economic and politic crap
l0ner	the only thing I'm good at is computers
Strangelv	It's important to get supplies as well so you're not needing to trade away your gold and silver unecessarily at far higher prices for scarce supplies that are presentyl not scarce
Strangelv	I can't say that geopolitics and survival supplies and economics are quite what I wanted either.  I've just been very concerned for a long time.
Strangelv	Aside from what the internet has provided us with and a far larger number of people being able to see what's fgoing on, things have just gotten worse and worse
l0ner	well, lets hope that there will be better time after whole thing crashes
Strangelv	Need to see what we can protect from the crash
l0ner	yup
Strangelv	Texas as a meme is about as strong as they get, so I doumt Texas will collapse.  I have no such confidence about the union
Strangelv	Problem is that Texas' government is corrupt.  I really wish RIck Perry has politically self-destructed 10 years ago, but I suppose late is better than never
l0ner	we'll see
l0ner	I don't know anything about US
Strangelv	I need to know more about Europe than I do
Strangelv	As that may be ground zero despite how much the Beltway in D.C. deserves to be
l0ner	I know that here in italy the current goverment resigned yesterday and we don't really know what will happen from now on
Strangelv	How much cheering on the streets has their been over the resignations?
l0ner	and in the poland the goverment is made only by people who cares about themselves
l0ner	many, my facebook was flooded with happy posts, and I've even seen non-drinking people drink champagne on the streets
Strangelv	Actually that wou/ld be dangerous here.  As corrupt as the US Congress is, they've only built the problem -- the problem is external to them and self-sustaining.  Every session they focus on creating more powvers for the utterly out of control executive branch filled with unaccountable bureaucracies
l0ner	let's hope we wont finish in cyberpunk-like world where megacorporations are true goverments
Strangelv	The US has more statutes, laws, rules, and regulations than any other country in world history.  ...as well as a bigger debt than any.  I must admit I don't hear the equivalent of 'what could go wrong' dismissals of any danger as I used to.  Activists on the left as well as the right have been having admittedly not big enough protests.  Need to get them together to focus on the common enemy instead of each other
Strangelv	Remember: Corporations were a government creation
l0ner	i know
Strangelv	That's normally forgotten in the US.  One side defends them assuming that doing so is defending the free market; the other side blames the free market for creating them and wants the government to protect us from them...
l0ner	but gov won't protect us form corps, becase corps are gov
Strangelv	Which is all very good news if you've got your interests lined up with teh bost obscenely large gowvernment in world history getting even moreso
l0ner	or rather, coprs are financing gov
Strangelv	The relationship is symbiotic as well as pathological
* Strangelv is a card carrying member of the Libertarian Party, so his views on a great many things are fairly predictable
l0ner	lol
Aquarius	hm... gnome is getting slower...
Strangelv	In what context?
* l0ner is some kind of anarchist with a little of socialist ideas
Strangelv	There are morle potential types of anarchies than there are of potential governments as best I can tell
l0ner	that's true
l0ner	too
Strangelv	The main question is how many of them could be stable enough to last more than even a single decade
Strangelv	Permanance is too much to ask of any situation -- pure democracies certianly fail that test
l0ner	but it will take force of whole nation to implement anarchy-idea-based gov, and some people won't allow that, some won't care...
Strangelv	The best solution I can think of for an anarchy is to do it in space
Strangelv	"eoither an O'Neil colony or inside a lunar lava tube for the crlosest to near term prospects
l0ner	yep, we need some kind of hybrid system, which mixes the best aspects of other gov kinds together
Strangelv	...as well as the worst...
Strangelv	The important idea of a republic is that teh majority is constrained.  Even if the wolves outnumber the sheep, they are limited in terms of what they can vote to have for dinner
Strangelv	...at least until teh constitution is completely ignored.  Something that got far too littel attention with ObamaCare is how it was 'passed' -- they're no longer even obeying tho procedures of our constitution, which is about the only thing they WERE obeying
l0ner	argh... why I'm so clumsy with graphics??
Strangelv	What are you trying t do?
l0ner	some kind of logo for trinity
*** Aquarius has quit IRC
Strangelv	What is your concept?  I need to get back to work on mine if I can find my sketches.
Strangelv	if I can't I need to try again to recapture what I had visualised
l0ner	we need to have new logo, new icons and whole new collection of art that is not referencing to kde in any way
l0ner	well, until now i did one thing
l0ner	which I thought could be used on trinity website
Strangelv	We have a T logo that's our present placeholder.  I'm of the view we sohuld use that for the time being so that we only need to change it once
l0ner	and T logo is fine with me,
l0ner	but i think we should drop the gears which are too big reference to kde
l0ner	and modernize it in some way...
Strangelv	I'm thinking of a far bigger change
Strangelv	I need to get my second mascot proposal produced.  I hope it'll do better than the first proposal which was a configurable robot.  evenyoen either liked it or hated it -- with too many in the lattercolumn
l0ner	start discussion about it, show some of them
l0ner	we need to make a new, modern-looking theme for trinity and so on
Strangelv	What about a Plastik/Keramic derived solution that uses the best of both?  Admittedly, my desktop looks like a realyl well done variant of Windows 95, but that's actually what I want...
Strangelv	Is there a guide for creating a theme somewhere, and for taking apart existing ones for reference graphics?
Strangelv	...or is it mostly algorithmic?
l0ner	dunno
l0ner	and I'd like to see something more along light stye2/plastik lines
Strangelv	If I can figuer out how to use GIT I can at least start uploading wallpaper graphics for people to throw rotten tomatoes at
Strangelv	What is style 2?
* Strangelv starts up kcontrol
l0ner	"light style, 2nd revision"
l0ner	i used it to simulate BeOS look some time ago
l0ner	and right now I use Polyester which is really nice
l0ner	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26010362/trinity_text_logo.png
l0ner	i did this today, as idea for website look
Strangelv	I use plastik window decorations and keramic widgets.  I'm not sure how to improve on that combination other than to consolidate them somehow
l0ner	by widgets you mean?
Strangelv	Style
l0ner	nah, I don't like it... too much complicated
l0ner	I'd settle for something simplier
Strangelv	in what way is it complicated?L
l0ner	I don't know how to explain this...
l0ner	I'm a minimalist so I'd like something more along lines of Plastik/Phase
l0ner	keramic looks too me too big, with too many decorative elements which take up space...
* Strangelv wonders how much work it would be for a 1967 imprementation. Would arlso need custom mouse cursors as those changed in the 1970s or so to an angled arrow. Only one solution in the 1980s used the old school straight up arrow cursor
Strangelv	"That's something that would be good to make configurable -- scale the elements to be larger or smaller
l0ner	yep
* Strangelv would probabyl make them bigger. His eyes are'nt as good as they used to be
l0ner	it was main reason I stopped using gtk based apps, everythign was taking too much space
Strangelv	I'm suspecting that's not what you mean by complicated though.  I don't need an answer right now as I'm not working on it right now.  I really do want an answer, though.  if I work on this I'll need to know what you mean
l0ner	well, lets leave it for later
Strangelv	Scalability is definitely something for a wishlist and absolutely in keeping with what I believe to be the core philisophy that led to KDE3/TDE -- give the user as much control as possible
Strangelv	...and from the GUI
l0ner	the best thing to do would be do a small research on how the current modern and most popular OSes look and do something along the lines with tde touch
l0ner	exaple: i don't like what OsX is and how it works, but I like how it looks
Strangelv	Except that we're the old school.  All the cook kids want to make everything a telephone
l0ner	or rather, how it manages things by trying to keep workspace as big as it can be
Strangelv	That's an ad I'd like to do for KDE sometime: here's a cluttered desktop, mouse keyboar'd and instead ofa  display there's a giant handheld touch screen phone.  The text reads "What do you mean this isn't what you want in a desktop environment?"
Strangelv	"s/KDE/TDE/
l0ner	that is what kde4 devs are doing
Strangelv	And Gnome
Strangelv	And unity
Strangelv	And Microsoft
l0ner	fuck desktop, we concentrate on touch screens because they are cool and new and shiny, and well fuck productivity
* Strangelv nods grimly
l0ner	and most annoying thing i get form kde4 community
Strangelv	Let them do the blue sky experimentation.  If they do something that actually works, maybe we should look into adding it to the old school paradigm
l0ner	"you should use your desktop like we tell you too"
Strangelv	When i lose control over my desktop environment I feel threatened and become agressive and hostile.  I need to be in control
l0ner	yes
Strangelv	Scalable widgets definitely sounds like something we should have
l0ner	i remember starting a little flame at kde4 forums, in which me and other users was pointing out what they didn't like in kde4. The only argumet kde4 devs used against as (and probably had) is that we either "not use things how they should be use"
l0ner	like moving plasmoids too much and so on
Strangelv	what's another feature we should have that we're missing?
l0ner	or "but it's awesome, it (kinda)works, and we put so much work in creting this!"
Strangelv	That's nice, but I wont something that can do what I've been doing
Strangelv	want, too
Strangelv	That's not more powerful, that's a straight jacket
Strangelv	I'll need one if I'm dforced to use it for too long
l0ner	We need auto resizing panels, like in xfce, they sum lenght of all widgets panel contains and set panel lienght to that sum
l0ner	and possibility to remove completely panels
l0ner	right now 1 panel is a must
Strangelv	Wonder if the code from their solution could be adapted.  After all, if there are compatible licences, we shou/dn't hesitate to take full advantage. 8)
l0ner	and different look settings for each panel present (like I want only one panel that is transparent, one whith green bg image, and one with red)
l0ner	yep
Strangelv	More ways to show the desktops in Kicker.  Right now I have four desktops show in a very inefficient fashion: three on the top row one on the bottom.  I'd very much like to have four in a single row
l0ner	and from the logicla viewpoint we don't need even to look at theri code, since all we need is a method to get widgets size, and sum them up
l0ner	i have 4 in one row
l0ner	pager options -> rows -> 1
Strangelv	Well it might be good to lok at it long enough to know what to swipe and to meet the terms -- this function was written by so and so and modified by peter, paul, mary, and young
* Strangelv looks. EH couldn't finda salution last time he looked
* Strangelv is also still running 3.5.12
*** MutantTurkey has joined #trinity-desktop
* l0ner is running 3.5.10 so Strangelev is not so behind
Strangelv	"I see columns: Automatic, 1, 2, and 3
Strangelv	Is this another case were we may have lost functionality?
l0ner	i see no columns lol
Strangelv	I don't see rows
l0ner	wait let me try something
l0ner	it's the same thing
Strangelv	I get it
l0ner	if you have vertical panel it shows up as columns and if you have horizontal one (like me) it shows as rows
Strangelv	"You have rows because you probably have Kicker horizontal, right?
Strangelv	nod
l0ner	yup
l0ner	and it's not really kicker i have pager on
Strangelv	Now you see why I want four columns -- it'll take up less of the letngth of the bar/panel/toolbar
l0ner	yep
Strangelv	Equivalent to four rows if it were horizontal
l0ner	i use OsX like panel at the top of the screen
l0ner	well I was using 2 rows/cols when i had vertical kicker
* Strangelv tries to remember where he ULed the screenshot of his desktop
Strangelv	It's smaller if it's 3 columns
Strangelv	"4 would be even better
Strangelv	I do admit that I have them set to show applications and wallpaper.  So it's one thing I probably already have smaller than I should, but the way Kicker is designed I need to fight for every pixel of length I can get
l0ner	anyway this is like me desktop looks now: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26010362/screen.png
l0ner	and I'd like to replace kicker at the bottom with something like OsX dock
l0ner	but native to trinity
Strangelv	I have way too many tihngs open for that to work easily.  I'd be shifting around cronstantly trying to find things
Strangelv	I lack sufficient familiarity with the OSX dock, but I'm definitely in favor of more options
l0ner	well, I need something that holds only Icons of runnning apps and is able to hold some of my app shortcuts
l0ner	MutantTurkey: for building on arch, it is better to use pkgbuilds from aur or tde-packaging??
* l0ner afk
*** l0ner is now known as l0ner_away
* l0ner_away is away: in the middle of nowhere hunting something to eat
*** chaky has joined #trinity-desktop
MutantTurkey	AUr
MutantTurkey	i don't have access to tde-packaging to commit it.
MutantTurkey	temporarly
* Strangelv : l0ner: http://dimensionality.com/tqtde/Strangelv_Workstation_20110204.png -- I've since gotten rid of the up and down buttons on the taskbar, changed my wall paper (to something arguably even more visually busy), and have SETI@Home runninga gain and eating my unused clock cycles.
MutantTurkey	soon i'll have it updated.
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: that sidebar takes up 1/3 of your screen though! :P
Strangelv	only when deployed
Strangelv	It's set to autohide.  I also have animation for it hidinga and unhiding disabled
MutantTurkey	oh nice
Strangelv	okay, not disable,d just set to hardly use any frames at all
Strangelv	I also had rather fewer applications running whetn I took that shot than normal
MutantTurkey	right
MutantTurkey	I try and keep minimal on amount of applications.
Strangelv	Here's another possible marketing angle: HOW DO YOU HAVE _YOUR_ TDE DESKTOP CONFIGURED?
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: thats actually an AWESOME Idea
MutantTurkey	i am serious
Strangelv	The idea being to show as many wildly different possibilities as possible
MutantTurkey	we just need a 1 minute promo clip
MutantTurkey	each person on camera says like "i like trinity because ____" and then we have a screenshot
MutantTurkey	or something
MutantTurkey	it's like a crappy car insurance commercial, but awesomer
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Aquarius	Z_God
Aquarius	i finally found it.
Aquarius	actually it IS a newer kernel that helped.
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: lol see what I just said on the appeal for freedom list
Strangelv	Would likely be less worku than my other idea of a cheap shot of showing what everyone else is trying to do
Xu_R	I saw XD
Xu_R	gg lolol.
Aquarius	now i have finally conducted my test. I booted with old Kernel - same audio issue came back.
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: like seriously.... pack your bags and go
Aquarius	with new one ... it's fine.
Aquarius	so i was right after all.
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: also, Meeting pad is getting very full.
Aquarius	that's the only thing that fixes it.
MutantTurkey	the meeting is going to dragon and on :P
Strangelv	What's the URL for that again?
Xu_R	yea... XD
Aquarius	and i'm on back on TDE
Aquarius	-on
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: this will be a productive meeting; one that we haven't had in months :)
Strangelv	...and what time was decided on?
* Strangelv claps
Xu_R	decided 12PM EST to get as many people as possible to join :)
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: 12PM est
Strangelv	"So 11:00... let me update my calendar...
* Strangelv is CST
Strangelv	Does anyone have a collection of phone numbers?
Aquarius	but this newer kernel brings some other issues.
Aquarius	for example... vlc doesn't show any movies by now.
* l0ner_away is away: !
*** l0ner_away is now known as l0ner
* l0ner is back.
Strangelv	erk
* l0ner is UTC+1 right now
Strangelv	my problrem with VLC is that it sometimes want to claim an infinite amount of RAM
l0ner	looks more like VLC/decoder problem
MutantTurkey	try mplayer.
MutantTurkey	It's the best :)
l0ner	pure mplayer
l0ner	or smplayer, which is simpy advanced gui for mplsyer
l0ner	*mplayer
MutantTurkey	pure mplayer
Strangelv	I have several installed, mostly for diagnostic purposes
MutantTurkey	"advanced" means a qt wrapper...
MutantTurkey	but mplayer seems to work quite well
l0ner	yep
l0ner	MutantTurkey: I like trinity becaus it can be just like MacOsX
l0ner	well not quite yet, we don't have native dock
Strangelv	Anyone got a desktop filled with icons that they wouldn't mind taking a screenshot of for marketing purposes?
l0ner	MutantTurkey: I like trinity becaus it can be just like BeOS
MutantTurkey	who was looking at that?
MutantTurkey	I like trinity because it "just works'
MutantTurkey	I like trinity because
l0ner	I have a clean desktop :P i use no icons
MutantTurkey	"it makes integration easy"
MutantTurkey	"I LIKE TRINITY BECAUSE....
l0ner	yep, pretty much
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	I am thinking we'd need some dynamic content
MutantTurkey	a promo video? :P
* MutantTurkey maybe this is way over our heads?
l0ner	could be nice :D
Strangelv	only have a dozen things
Strangelv	So two video ideas... anyone got a third?  A fourth?
MutantTurkey	"Calvin Morrison, 17, USA." " I like trinity because it's a no nonsense answer for getting work done" (screenshot below), then cut to l0ner, 105, Alabama " I like TDE because..."
Strangelv	Three is probably the minimum number to shoot for doing
MutantTurkey	just something like that.
l0ner	nah, request a short user-made video (even form webcam will do) in which he says why he likes trinity the most (give him 3-4 sec for answer)
MutantTurkey	yes webcam is good exactly.
MutantTurkey	I can clean up audio / video significantly.
MutantTurkey	I also have friends in video production departments at school.
l0ner	great!
MutantTurkey	l0ner: okay I am going to commit soon to the tde-packaging reopo
Strangelv	That could be one way to do it.  Could have dozens along those lines, although I can also see them rapidly getting bmoring
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: 3-4 seconds
l0ner	i produced most of promo videos for my school tho :P
l0ner	I see it: hi-res video showing desktop screenshot and in corner video of user saying "I like trinity because..."
Strangelv	So the idea is to have a set of these together for one video.  Okay, that could be less borin,g and would then need other ideas to supplement.  What does YOUR TDE desktop look like, What do you mean you don't want you 24" workstation display to look like it's your telephone?
l0ner	yep
MutantTurkey	if people want it to look like a telephone... .OK!
l0ner	a promo video like that
Strangelv	How do we do the latter one?
MutantTurkey	because we need to say anything goes...
MutantTurkey	OKAY SOMEONE MAKE A ETHERPAD right now!
MutantTurkey	"promo ideas"
MutantTurkey	for the next release
Strangelv	"We can look like a telephone too, but it's entirely your choice?
l0ner	is it wise and droductive choice?
l0ner	&PRODUCTIVE
l0ner	aaaargh!!!
l0ner	i hate my keyboard
l0ner	*productive
Strangelv	I loved my old 1980s-era NEC keyboard,s but wore them out too quickly and then couldn't find anymore.  Plus i was broke at the time.  Right now i'd eagerly pay $100+ for one
MutantTurkey	I am a die hard for this trhinkpad keyboard.
MutantTurkey	but the "dell quiet key" is my favorite desktop keyboard
MutantTurkey	http://www.topmicrousa.com/dequkeps2skr.html
Strangelv	Right now I have a $15 Kensington.  The feel is garbage, but the feel is garbage to me on any rucently made keyboard
jumpship	wow, such drama on the ml
* Strangelv has been avaiding his email
MutantTurkey	jumpship: I know >_> hopefully just ended it.
l0ner	i have isle-like (really) low profile keyboard in my laptop
l0ner	and i just can
l0ner	't sense the keys
MutantTurkey	It just bothers me that someone is so preoccupied with bashing us and wont leave us alone.
jumpship	I seen you tried, but it looks as others have too
MutantTurkey	It would be a trinity user going on KDE4 ML and complaining and complaining
MutantTurkey	jumpship: hopefully I did though
MutantTurkey	Go, in peace.
Strangelv	Who's doing the bashing?  Is this the KDE4 developer that was mendioned in here the other day?
jumpship	No matter, time goes on
jumpship	No Ilya is the guy from KDE:KDE3 or whatever
jumpship	anyway, back to the other topic
jumpship	I'm glad I'm not the only one that likes a large left panel
Z_God	the problem is on two sides really
Z_God	it seems Timothy didn't hadn't certain things very subtly either
Z_God	handle*
Z_God	both parties have valid criticisms against each other, but for the future of both projects, it's important to prevent these things in the future
MutantTurkey	Z_God: no he did
jumpship	Maybe, but, oh nevermind, sorry I mentioned it, no need to add to it
MutantTurkey	for a REALLY REALLY LONG TIME.
MutantTurkey	and clearly ilya isn't competent to pick up on it
MutantTurkey	so tim just said it rather frankly.
Z_God	but in the latest discussion, it's obvious Tim made some mistakes, this is unfortunate, but it should be avoided
l0ner	pad has been made!
Strangelv	jumpship: like to contribute a screenshot for the 'what does your TDE Desktop' collection effort?
Strangelv	What'sa  good place to collect these?
jumpship	You'd all laugh at me :)
Z_God	at least he reconciled though, I hope Ilya will do as well
Strangelv	The idea is to havne a mess of them that look as different from each other as possible
Strangelv	The more unconventional, the better?  ...or if it's default plus a large left panel, that would wokr too. 8)
jumpship	Well, it's different, sure, I'll make one
l0ner	give me auto-resizing to it's contents kicker, and icon-only taskbar and I'll submit many different possible configurations
* Strangelv is the worng person to ask to do the coding. Even if he had the time, his coding skillset has gathered entirely around scripting languages
* l0ner 's too
l0ner	well i'd could ttry to do some coding
l0ner	or at least look at the code, since theoretically I finished my hi-school as a programmer (big laugh) and I can read c/C++ code and do some basic coding
l0ner	I even did a little app in qt4 to handle sqlite db for my maturity exam
Strangelv	my last effort at coding in C++ ended up getting too kludgy.  ...then I disastrously let someone talk me into trying to port it to Java...
l0ner	and now theretically i'm doing ing degree in informatics
Strangelv	I was a lot more successlful with Python after giving up on having hiher than double precision floats
l0ner	aww... bad
MutantTurkey	I hate python...
MutantTurkey	C all the way!
l0ner	java is pure evil
MutantTurkey	(also I don't fancy C++)
l0ner	I hate python too, or rather, how it is used
MutantTurkey	Java is  to C++ like nailing wooden planks on a dog to make an octopus.
l0ner	python is nice when used like more powerful bash, to automatize some thins
Strangelv	I've got a copy of first edition K&R I'm wanting to go through.  I'm thinking old school C might be something i could deal with if i can get past my difficulties with points
Strangelv	pointers
MutantTurkey	Java is really like C plus plus, minus minus.
l0ner	java was made to automate industrial machines
Strangelv	Two things in the minus minus column made my effort a nightmare
l0ner	no, it's more like c++,-------------------------
MutantTurkey	"C++ is to C as Lung Cancer is to Lung. "
Strangelv	I needed operators on something other than just the buil-in basics, and I had a very complex, but efficient class inheritance structure
Strangelv	Python worked just fine with it.  With Java I was destroying any traces of efficientcy jiust to try to get it to wokr again
Strangelv	redefining the exact same thing about 20 times over
MutantTurkey	'    Being really good at C++ is like being really good at using rocks to sharpen sticks '
*** Fat-Zer_ has quit IRC
MutantTurkey	http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/ < read
Strangelv	instead of a parent class that had it once and then have multiple things inherit from it and from other things they needed
MutantTurkey	http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/java < read
MutantTurkey	read the whole harmful website! :P
MutantTurkey	my favorite quite though is "If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution. -- Robert Sewell"
* Strangelv wonders if anyones' written a'n operating system in Haskall
jumpship	What should I do with me screenshot?
MutantTurkey	I think so.
* l0ner needs to change music queue
Strangelv	Can you upload it somewhere?  We probably need a place to upload them all to
* Strangelv also has one from Tokra that's the same vintage as the one he's shown
jumpship	I don't have accounts anywhere, know of something I don't have to create an account for?
* Strangelv can't remember the image uploading site he used that keeps things for about a month
Strangelv	"But that's be definition only an immediate term solution
jumpship	It's small, I could email it to someone
l0ner	imageshack?
jumpship	http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/249/jumpship.jpg/
l0ner	uh... why it looks to me like nightmare?
MutantTurkey	chang your background
MutantTurkey	we can't include that :P
MutantTurkey	"though I thouroughly approve"
l0ner	lol
jumpship	I like it, It's really not for everyone, I kinda wondered about the wallpaper
jumpship	Something about that pic always interested me, not sure what :)
* Strangelv : I may be biased, but I tend to find a much lower tendency among female programmers to be dishonest about their skills, and thus do not say they know C++ when they are smart enough to realize that that would be a lie for all but perhaps 5 people on this planet. -- Erik Naggum
Strangelv	I must admit the wallpaper is pretty amusing
Strangelv	One possibility would be to change the wallpaper to something less distracting before making a screenshot, but your very customized taskbar is very much the sort of thing that we probabrly want in the customized desktops video.  Thank you!
jumpship	I'll change it, I often have no wallpaper, but just black is kinda bland for a screenshot
Strangelv	"I have some interesting wallpapers to offer. 8)
jumpship	Sure, what do you have?
Strangelv	See if just the directory link works or if Drupal will show a 404 message
* Strangelv gets: IceCat has detected that the server is redirecting the request for this address in a way that will never complete.
Strangelv	drat.  Let me pick some and havd the links to you one by one
jumpship	no hurry, will be back in a few, making coffee
l0ner	Starngelv: look at current TIME front page
MutantTurkey	did you know adolf hitler made TIME's man of the year in the 1930s?
MutantTurkey	juts leraned that.
l0ner	lol, didn't kknow
Strangelv	I knew he did, but I didn't know it was twice until earlier today
* Strangelv : http://www.dimensionality.com/tqtde/julia_L505_1528.png
* Strangelv : http://www.dimensionality.com/tqtde/julia_L506_0139.png
* Strangelv : http://www.dimensionality.com/tqtde/Julia_L506_2342.png
* Strangelv : http://www.dimensionality.com/tqtde/L421_all_r1.png -- set to tile, not stretch
* Strangelv : http://www.dimensionality.com/tqtde/L424_004.png -- ditto, but I seem to be teh only one woh likes this one
* Strangelv : http://www.dimensionality.com/tqtde/L424_012_fix1.png
Strangelv	Again, that one is square and tiling
* Strangelv : http://www.dimensionality.com/tqtde/L424_046.png -- tiling
* Strangelv : http://www.dimensionality.com/tqtde/L424_085.png -- tiling
* Strangelv : http://www.dimensionality.com/tqtde/Lightly_Snowed_Backyard_colorfix1.png
l0ner	uh, I think I don't want to know what just did my cat. But I heard i really loud "thump" somewhere in the house....
Strangelv	l0ner: anyone that Time would tout as a potenital frontrunner is someone I'm inclined by default to run away from
* l0ner is going to look for cat... and damage
MutantTurkey	fractals eh?
l0ner	Strangelv: me too
Strangelv	It was one way to create an interestiwng solution and still have large amounts of solid to near-solid color that some people were wanting
Strangelv	My normal inclinations tend to be more like L424_085.png at the simplest
* Strangelv hopes the cat is okay
Strangelv	Which is why I'd like to have more control over the text with the desktop icons
MutantTurkey	we're going to need some sort of artwork done for this release...
MutantTurkey	is that in the meeting notes Xu_R?
Strangelv	Is theer a list of specifications anywhere?
Strangelv	without them I might do the wrong things
MutantTurkey	I dunno
MutantTurkey	also I don't really like tiled backgrounds :P
MutantTurkey	we'll need to come up with an idea of what we want in the group though
* l0ner found cat, but no dmg
l0ner	well, what we need is modern-eyecandy-simple-artwork
l0ner	tiled wallpapers imho looks like something from '90
MutantTurkey	I think we need an improved icon theme.
l0ner	true
MutantTurkey	things like KPowersave look really crappy
l0ner	yep, and we need theme that is clean and sleek
MutantTurkey	faenza?
MutantTurkey	http://tiheum.deviantart.com/art/Faenza-Icons-173323228
MutantTurkey	I like that sort of look
Strangelv	A big complain I have with the Crystal set is that the GIMP icon looks great if you have it nice and big on the desktop but is utterly unrecognizable if it's on your taskbar or in a meny with small icons
l0ner	great!!
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: yeah its bad for that
MutantTurkey	also there are many KDE specific icons.
MutantTurkey	so either A) we need to improve ours or B) add new icons to an existing one
Strangelv	_Do we really need to replace other project's icons?
l0ner	I think we'll be able to dig something nice un kde-look.org, and maybe adapt it
Strangelv	"What if we had a set that was ONLY for KDE3/TDE projects?
l0ner	that would be the best
l0ner	but for better integration with gtk/'qt4/kde4' we will need to provide more icons
l0ner	at least the default ones
MutantTurkey	yes I am looking for one now
MutantTurkey	there are projects are just icon themes.
l0ner	MutantTurkey: I can't build kdelibs form pkgbuild on my arch vm: http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/507286/
MutantTurkey	I think we need to consider dropping crystal svg.
l0ner	crytstal svg is outdated IMHO
MutantTurkey	l0ner:X looks like you don't have your X11 development libs.
l0ner	D:
MutantTurkey	l0ner: key phase "IMHO"
MutantTurkey	thats my guess
Strangelv	I would be all for keeping Crystal, maybe with some update,s as an option.  Possibly even in its own separate package, but an option.  The work has been done and a lot of people are used to it
jumpship	http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/444/jumpship.jpg/
jumpship	http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/522/jumpship2.jpg/
* Strangelv 's opinions are never humble
l0ner	well, I don't tell to wipe them out form existence
jumpship	looks just like it does outside today, thats the other way it looks depending on which kicker panels are hidden
MutantTurkey	I think we need to imporove them at the very least.
l0ner	and sure, I'm for archivizing them and providing them as an extra
Strangelv	:: will look at the screenshots as soon as he stops ROFL for the Ruby page on harmful
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: harmful.cat-v.org is my favorite page seriously
l0ner	yet, we need something new and something that's all oh-look-how-cool-are-those-icons/theme-i'm-going-to-try-that-DE
MutantTurkey	they make fun of everything well!
MutantTurkey	l0ner: we need something a bit slicker
* Strangelv : At least Perl is hilarious. Ruby does not have the redeeming quality of being funny.
l0ner	yep
MutantTurkey	but very out of the way
MutantTurkey	I think
* MutantTurkey favorite ruby quote
l0ner	slicker and less glossy, latest trends are likt that
MutantTurkey	someone could start a etherpad on it...
MutantTurkey	if they would like
MutantTurkey	we should bring it up at the meetin
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MutantTurkey	my screenshot :) http://i.imgur.com/0vshb.png
MutantTurkey	I think we should use this by default! its the best :P
MutantTurkey	except for my window decorations, I hate them, but cant find a better one
l0ner	add it to the pad on meeting
l0ner	it will be a long meeting it seems...
MutantTurkey	what do you all think of my screen?
jumpship	I like your wallpaper, dark
MutantTurkey	jumpship: its included by default actually.
samelian	MutantTurkey: you still using antialised fonts? :)
samelian	I find antialiasing very ugly and slow
MutantTurkey	why not?
MutantTurkey	(i actually have no idea?)
l0ner	wallpaper is nice, window decorations are awful, style don't fit really in the "modern" category, is it "light style" or what?
samelian	hang on, I will show you my desktop
MutantTurkey	l0ner: yeah mystyle sucks too
MutantTurkey	I was mostly focusing on my panel setup
MutantTurkey	what d oyou think of that?
MutantTurkey	my style is pretty much just good old windows esque
* l0ner shameless repost of desktop screenshot: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26010362/screen.png
l0ner	MutantTurkey: I was using that sytle to simulate vintage BeOS look :D
jumpship	I never noticed all the new wallpapers, when were they added?
Strangelv	So is mine aside from the vertical toolbar, which I've been using since Windows 95
MutantTurkey	plastic is a bit to plasticy
l0ner	Polyester is nice, like plastic but less plastik :P
Strangelv	which wallpapers?
samelian	MutantTurkey: check here: http://thel.ro/desktop.png
jumpship	Mine started with a desire to not have a tv anymore, thats why the media player in the corner, then filled in below it
* Strangelv needs to stop adding moer links and save screenshots. IceCat is molassas enough as it is
jumpship	Maybe I just never noticed them in kde, or I just don't remember
l0ner	samelian: looks quite vintage, if I'd was to find this trough google images i'd say it's form kde3.5.9 times
MutantTurkey	guys! guys!
samelian	hehe
MutantTurkey	this conversation ROCKS
samelian	I like clean fonts
MutantTurkey	because it's exactly what Strangelv said, everyone has a different way to use trinity.
samelian	also, displaying fonts in this way is _very_ fast
l0ner	I don't even know if I use them antialias or not x_x
MutantTurkey	I use antialiasing because with out it many fonts are crippled.
l0ner	true
samelian	MutantTurkey: you should recompile freetype with hinting support
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: no, I'll throw it up there.
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: okay :)
MutantTurkey	samelian: i'll poke around with it
samelian	search on google for "freetype bytecode interpreter"
MutantTurkey	with plastik, the qt theme, we should remove those hideous dots on the scroll bars...
samelian	http://avi.alkalay.net/2007/01/freetype-with-bytecode-interpreter.html
MutantTurkey	thanks
* Strangelv thinks... TDE: What YOU make of it? How YOU want it? It's up to YOU?
jumpship	I can say this, no other environment let me make my setup, tried them all after the kde4 release, good or bad :)
l0ner	and wtf is wrong with you!? TDE can do it!
jumpship	Anyone else have a cable guy wanna run a windows disc during install of internet? He was very confused.
MutantTurkey	anyway girlfriend got here, gotta go
MutantTurkey	jumpship: lol yes happened to me b4
jumpship	later MT
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* Strangelv likes 'TDE Can Do It'
l0ner	:D
jumpship	Seeing flashbacks of Nike comercials
Strangelv	Is that too close to someone else's phrase?
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l0ner	"You can do it"?
jumpship	I can't think of any, but Nike had a series of commercials back during the "Just do it" thing that were sports figures talking about what they could do, thats what made me think of it
* Strangelv is stil lfighting with imageshack to try to get the full sized version of http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/444/jumpship.jpg/
l0ner	lol
l0ner	imageshach is shit tho
Strangelv	It's the single most distinctive desktop arrangement I suspect we're going to find.  I really want a good copy of it
jumpship	And there was a joke song with Rob Schneider and that was the chorus, I think it was a movie soundtrack
Strangelv	It positively screams what we're getting at.
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damiano_	did someone fix the tab buttons of the kicker?? They look nicer now!
damiano_	or maybe it's just some mode i never chose...
Strangelv	Tab buttons?
damiano_	yep
damiano_	main panel
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 611 filed by f.couperin@online.fr.
jumpship	Task bar buttons?
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=611 wishlist, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, [konqueror] xz support in konqueror
damiano_	yes
damiano_	they look pushed now.
damiano_	slightly.
damiano_	but it's already just fine
jumpship	There was a feature that was turned back on about that
* Strangelv is still running 3.5.12 -- he's also discovered he's not with the oldest version running in here
damiano_	ah
damiano_	great
damiano_	now that's something already.
jumpship	I'm with ya, Strangelv, 3.5.12 still
Strangelv	I need to fix networking on my notebook as that's probmably what I'm going to use to test upgrading from Meerkat and 3.5.12
damiano_	3.5.13 is cool, Konqueror doesn't crash on flash anymore. Wheee!
damiano_	and it's damn fast too
Strangelv	kewl
* Strangelv doesn't use Adobe flash or anything at all by Adobe, actually. Does GNU Gnash count?
jumpship	After upgrade, I might just have to go back to konq for web browsing, does it render pages better?
damiano__	can't tell you, but so far i haven't noticed any serious deviations.
damiano__	it could be at the very least used as alternative browser for sure.
* Strangelv has generally avoided browsing with Konqueror -- not only has it historically tended to crash, it's too closely tied to the operating environment for his security tastes
Strangelv	I do use it for local html files
Strangelv	open the page in a new tab
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damiano_	clone..
Strangelv	I wish Arora was more stable.
l0ner	I wish trinity had webkit
jumpship	Wasn't webkit a fork of khtml?
Strangelv	yes
Strangelv	fork may be the worng word
Strangelv	it's more intimate than that
jumpship	What was the reason it wasn't used to replace khtml in konq?
Strangelv	I'm not sure.  IIRC the KDE4 version is switchable between the two
* l0ner wishes that koqueror could render webpages correctly
Strangelv	There's also the problem of who among us is able to do anything about it
jumpship	Maybe an legal issue or something
Strangelv	...or do we just rip out the existing khtml functionality and drop in something else off of the shelf, preferably WebKit based?
jumpship	Someone was working on getting Firefox's engine into konq, but I think it was kinda difficult
Strangelv	That's probably too heavyweight
Strangelv	"I'm tihnking Arora would be a better candidate
jumpship	Maybe they could all be wrapped in kparts and we could switch at will
damiano_	yes.. now it looks just fine. Hooraay
jumpship	The deep buttons thing?
damiano_	yep, and also the gap for tray icons
jumpship	gap?
damiano_	well.. like frame
jumpship	ahh
damiano_	it wasn't there before. At least i couldn't find it.
jumpship	Grab a screenshot when it's how you like it, I'm curious, if you don't mind
damiano_	sure
damiano_	hang on
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jumpship	Strangelv: Did you get the pic from imageshack?
damiano_	http://89.28.122.14:8081/snapshot1.png
jhutchins	Very strange, on my first session about half the left-mouse dialogs didn't work with my serial mouse.  Logged out and back in and it works fine.
jumpship	That does look nice
damiano_	yep
damiano_	i'm satisfied.
* Strangelv looks. He wouldn't be surprised if he's missed something. He's needing to recuperate from yesterday
jumpship	A little retro, a little modern, I like it
damiano_	but now back to sound issue...... i thought it's gone, but no. It was gone on newer kernel. But supposedly not because of new kernel itself, but some settings that i accidentaly have made. But those are seen to new kernel only. WHen i get onto old one the old issue is back.
damiano_	yep
jumpship	Oh yeah, your Aquarius, I almost forgot
jumpship	:)
damiano_	yep, sorry :)
jhutchins	Is there a known problem with kdesu or it's equivalent?  I'm getting "conversation with su failed" with both user pw and root pw
jumpship	I knew I recognized the name
damiano_	yep, that's me
damiano_	actually, i have two xchats running now, and there's aquarius there... but i can't close it
damiano_	old prob by the way. Happens sometimes.
Strangelv	standby, IceCat crashed on me
Strangelv	"Okay, I definitely didn't have that one
jumpship	I might look into xchat, looks nice, in the debian repo or are you on another distro?
Strangelv	saved.  Tahtnk you
damiano_	Debian, yep. You saw the icon though ;)
jumpship	Strangelv: Welcome
jumpship	Don't like the X?
Strangelv	Also thank you, damiano
damiano_	what for? Screen you mean?
Strangelv	yup
damiano_	ah.. np.
Strangelv	If we're going to put something together we need all the screenshots we can get
damiano_	sure.
jumpship	damiano_: The clock, was that just to have the date or do you hate clocks? :)
damiano_	hahaha
damiano_	i just fixed that :)
* Strangelv would like to have an animated analog 24 hour clock somewher on his desktop.
damiano_	i want both date and time... and also i'm using low-res (doh...), so yeah.. i don't want the panel to take too much of screen space
jumpship	Then you'd hate my desktop :)
damiano_	http://89.28.122.14:8081/snapshot2.png
damiano_	take No.2
damiano_	now it's fine. Small, but visible enough though.
jumpship	Looks good, why low res?
damiano_	well... old monitor. Don't ask why.... i had LCD 19" one.. and i still do, but i can't use it.. gave it to my sis..
damiano_	but it's alright, i can get over it...
damiano_	i can do higher than 800x600, but that hurts my eyes... feel uncomfortable
* Strangelv needs to get something with a higher resolution than his 1360x768
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Strangelv	When I got this display its low resolution wasn't a minus.  it was large and chap and that's what I needed as my eyes were normally 2 meters away from the screen
jumpship	I'm down to a crappy 17" with 1280x1024 for now, waiting to get a 42"
damiano_	lowres is very detailed to me though.
Strangelv	My display that doesn't work with anything newer than Jaunty is a 17" 1280xd1024
* l0ner is going to relax somewhere
damiano_	i feel pain when i can't see the pixels. Sounds weird though, but.. that's how it is.
l0ner	cya guys!
jumpship	later l0ner
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Strangelv	I don't need to see the pixels, but I do need pixel-level control vitht my mouse
jumpship	Why doesn't it work with >Jaunty
* Strangelv : [OUT OF RANGE]
Strangelv	That becomes my display the moment the kernel reaches the point where it changes text modes
Strangelv	I've been iunable to figuer out how to get it to stop doing that so I can even have a working text mode to try to diagnosue and get things working
Strangelv	If i can't get a larger monitor I may buy a smaller one to replace that one
jumpship	Odd, must be trying to use strange settings
Strangelv	It's not exactly a new display, and it always had trouble.  I've just been able to hammer it into working shape before.
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jumpship	This monitor came out of my junk pile, and it's given me no problems, unlike the one that died that it replaced
* Strangelv : 8\
Strangelv	I don't have any monitors in my junk pile unless you count the EGA monitors gathering dust in my garage
jumpship	X couldn't autodetect anything correct with that one, took me quite a while to get the xorg.conf proper
jhutchins	Ok, put myself in the sudo group, restarted, now niether kdesu kcontrol nor "Login Manager" from the Settings/System Administration menu get any response at all.
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jhutchins	Oh, wait, there's kcontrol...
Strangelv	Have you tried typing them in from konsole?
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Strangelv	admittedly I don't know how to invole the login manager from the console
jumpship	Login manager? You mean kdm?
jhutchins	It appears to be kcontrol.  It just takes forever to come up.
Strangelv	Is kdesu installed?  I seem to remember at least one time weher i had to grab it with apt-get
jhutchins	Strangelv: I had to put myself in the sudo group. (Didn't need that with debian kde).
jhutchins	This is lenny.
jumpship	Isn't kde3 still in lenny?
jumpship	I have an idea, one sec
jumpship	Look in /etc/sudoers
jumpship	I think the sudo group thing is off by default
jumpship	Do you have a commented out line like this:
jumpship	%sudo ALL=NOPASSWD: ALL
* Strangelv went from Debian/Libranet to Kubuntu in 2005, so what he remembers about Debian is largely out of date
jumpship	Maybe thats not what thats for, I really don't know sudo very well
jumpship	That might be to diable the password completly
Strangelv	I don't evsen use sudo most of the time.  I set up a root password during setup and always have a root console running
jumpship	I prefered that setup, I think I had trouble with kdesu myself a while back and instead of fixing it, went the sudo route
Strangelv	I've read that SUDO is actually something of a vulnerability
Strangelv	...although I don't know of an alternative to KDESU/KDESUDO for X apps
Strangelv	short ofshutting down X to run it as root
jumpship	Bugs aside, I don't know how it could be any worse than su
* Strangelv basically never wants to log out of X
* Strangelv : 13:05:06 up 27 days, 14:38, 4 users, load average: 11.15, 11.72, 11.98
jumpship	gksu, but I hate the way it fades the screen dark when it asks for password
Strangelv	Which is another SUDO style solution, presumably with the same danger, which I admittedly don't understand
jumpship	nah, gksu is gnomes kdesu, there is a gksudo too
jumpship	well sudo doesn't require you to have the root password, but sudo can be limited to only work with some commands
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Aquarius	back
jumpship	And better than ever?
Aquarius	no... unfortunatelly.
Aquarius	deleted new kernel.
Aquarius	sound issues are back...
Aquarius	and also.. synaptic doesn't run anymore for some reason.
Aquarius	only asks for password but that's it.
jumpship	So stick with the new kernel
Aquarius	NO
Aquarius	it's shitty man..
jumpship	ok, what versions are you playing with?
Aquarius	Wine doesn't work because of it, VLC doesn't play video and probably lotsa other probs
jumpship	ahh
Aquarius	-32, -38
Aquarius	well i'm back on 32
jumpship	as for synaptic, try it in a terminal maybe it'll give some hints
Aquarius	ok
Aquarius	hah!
Aquarius	i ran it with kdesu and it worked!
Aquarius	it's open now.. what da hell..
jumpship	good, I think synaptic's default menu entry uses gksu, maybe it's not installed, anyway, if it works with kdesu, you can prob just edit the menu entry
Aquarius	uhu...
Aquarius	now for another thing...
jumpship	Hmm, my menu entry is already setup to use kdesu
Aquarius	how to supply Konqueror with java?
jumpship	I think ya just need the pkgs installed, don't know for sure
Aquarius	jm..
Aquarius	oke
jumpship	My java setup is a mess so I can't really help
Aquarius	i wish i had a dollar every time ive heard it..
jumpship	That I can't help? me too :)
jumpship	I'd be very rich if I could get paid for things I don't know
Aquarius	nah... it's just the word "mess"
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jumpship	Thats just me, I learn things by making messes, then I get distracted
jumpship	and I don't have java working in Konq at the moment, I think I turned it off, looking...
jumpship	Nope, no java in konq, can't help ya, I don't use konq for browsing anymore
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Aquarius	now i know why synaptic doesn't work.
Aquarius	there are two.
Aquarius	one works, the other one doesn't.
jumpship	two?
Aquarius	yep..
Aquarius	one left from gnome..
Aquarius	even password box is different.
Aquarius	that's the working one.
Aquarius	the other one.. dunno.
Aquarius	Maybe it's Trinity.
Aquarius	or maybe....
jumpship	That must be something new in 3.5.13, I only have one
Aquarius	i have no idea..
jumpship	Where on the menu are they, right next to each other?
Aquarius	no..
Aquarius	just forget it.. nevermind..
jumpship	ok
Aquarius	just takes too much time with no advantage...
Strangelv	Is Java a mess by design?
jumpship	I don't know, everything I've ever tried that used it was a bad experience
Aquarius	dunno, but by me it works perfectly
Aquarius	only not in Konqueror yet
Aquarius	don't you forget, it ALSO depends on audio settings. It may be jerky if audio is not alright. So don't mistake audio glitches for java issues.
Aquarius	i''ve gone through this.
Aquarius	so by me java is perfect.
Aquarius	i test it usually on a picky java based website - playforia.com
Aquarius	http://playforia.com
Aquarius	i play pool there sometimes
Aquarius	and if java has any glitches it's usually pretty much visible on it
jumpship	Strangelv: How do I get a list of etherpads available?
Strangelv	I wish i knew myself
Strangelv	I lost the links a couple of months ago
jumpship	Ok, I thought I was doing something wrong, I can bring them up by number, but no list
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KingSphinx	Aaaaaand I'm back to Ubuntu. Fedora just has too many nagging annoyances about it for me to stick around.
Z_God	yum sucks right? ;)
KingSphinx	Not exactly, more like SELinux is a pain, Kopete doesn't work properly (or in Trinity/Fedora's case, at *all*), GTK slows my computer to a crawl for some reason, Konqueror and Rekonq segfault in the weirdest ways... you get the picture.
KingSphinx	Too bad the Ubuntu build of Trinity has its own problems (KMenu crashing the whole Kicker, for one)
Z_God	KingSphinx: are those problems still there?
Z_God	did you report them?
KingSphinx	I'm sure the bugs have already been reported, the KMenu bug is something to do with libarts or something like that
Strangelv	"And that bug is now confirmed to be in the current repository, not just the old lightly?
Strangelv	er even nightly
Strangelv	Does anyne know a workaround?
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KingSphinx	I'm pretty sure it's in the official repo, I tried it.
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jumpship	I think that's bug 554
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=554 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, art_render_gradient.c makes kicker and konqueror crash
jumpship	unless something else is crashing kicker
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Aquarius	back
Aquarius	now.. who's the one responsible for taskbar app tabs?
Z_God	MutantTurkey: it can make sense to drop support for other kernels (than Linux)
Z_God	in many cases, those systems are just broken and working around their bugs just takes up a lot of time
Z_God	Trinity will probably face much less problems being ported (also because it was already running on many systems)
Z_God	but I understand for kwin, they even had to work around loads of buggy linux drivers already, so I can imagine the frustration also working around other buggy kernels
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Aquarius	Trinity is cool
Aquarius	:)
Aquarius	thanks for the buttons :)
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Strangelv	"Could we simplify anything that might make it easier for a separate team to jump up to the plate and handle the BSD, Darwin, and NT ports?
Strangelv	"I'm not sure if we can get away with dropping BSD support
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Strangelv	"if 3.5.13 can run BSD we might be able to take its support offline for a revision or two, though
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Z_God	Strangelv: it should already pretty much work on those systems
Z_God	solaris as well
Strangelv	MAybe I misunderstood the situation report and proposed solution, then
Z_God	just google a bit on what systems have kde 3.5 if you're interested
Z_God	maybe not all features will work, but the basic environment and all the programs should just work
Strangelv	So what is being suggested, then?
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MutantTurkey	I have an idea about the next release and themes etc
MutantTurkey	along the lines of having 4 default themes
MutantTurkey	one being the current one, a minimal one, a 2 bar ones and a very XP one. (or whatever we feel is good)
MutantTurkey	what do you all think?
MutantTurkey	almost like the windows browser picker
MutantTurkey	http://blogs.sitepointstatic.com/images/tech/265-eu-browser-choice-screen-2.jpg
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Strangelv	Something that looks like a fancier version of the 95 theme, which I bqeliev can be acchieved optimally alrady as described previously.  I'm cguessing the code needed to add the discussed scaling of widgets isn't going to be practical for .14
Strangelv	Need the guide for how to do them before I could ewven start, even with specifications
Strangelv	I'm also falling asleep, but please feel free to bug me about it. 8)
Strangelv	Coild wu hovu o nuw enu that's optimized for maximum user tinkerability?
Strangelv	"Stick in user-created or at least selected graphics for the vzarious portions and tile or stretch as indicated?
MutantTurkey	wait what?
Strangelv	"imagine a user sticking in peeling pain, rust, mud, et c.  Then another with pink flowery patterns, another with 1980s style pixelated grids, et c.?
Strangelv	Would need some inferfgacre ability, and might require an entire new syste,m exceeding what we can do before the next release
Strangelv	"so rather than making a theme that looks perfet to me, which we actualyl already haev, something designed to be even moer customizable
Strangelv	I suppose thy plastik/keramic combination i ues could be described as 'de luxe Redmond
* Strangelv waves to everyone before turning off his display and closing his eyes
Z_God	bye
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 612 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=612 normal, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, KPersonalizer Branding Issue
Z_God	MutantTurkey: this could be easily done through KPersonalizer :)
Z_God	I mean the themes part
Z_God	there just need to be new themes I guess
Z_God	I'm also off to bed, good night!
MutantTurkey	hmmm?
MutantTurkey	full themes, that means background, styles, fonts EVERYTHING.
MutantTurkey	sounds even?
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MutantTurkey	l0ner?
MutantTurkey	anyone heard of kwin DeKorator?
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MutantTurkey	commited the 3.5.13 release specs to git
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: ^
Xu_R	?
Xu_R	oh, nice!
MutantTurkey	yep
MutantTurkey	now what to do lol?
Xu_R	xD
MutantTurkey	I think i am going to work on the laptop window decoration.
Xu_R	wait for 3.5.13 bugfixes :P
MutantTurkey	got some dieas...
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: I think ilya is gone for good?
Xu_R	think so :|
MutantTurkey	yeah :|
Aquarius	MutantTurkey, hey, who's responsible for the buttons? :)
MutantTurkey	Aquarius: what buttons?
Aquarius	MutantTurkey, remember, taskbar tabs
Aquarius	they're just fine now :)
MutantTurkey	taskbar tabs...
MutantTurkey	(I have the worst memory ever :P)
Aquarius	well.. i was the one complaining about bolded tabs instead of pushed ones ;)
* MutantTurkey is very tired and confused
MutantTurkey	oh!
MutantTurkey	right right right
Aquarius	yeah, now it's just the way i want it!
MutantTurkey	well good think they are OK now
Aquarius	so thanks for that :)
MutantTurkey	:D
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MutantTurkey	yawn
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 613 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=613 normal, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Kipi-plugins Sym Links Incorrect
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 614 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=614 enhancement, P3, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Provide a more professional message box for the TDE Write Daemon
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Piki	has anybody configured kmail to accept their gpg key for signing? i'm in Settings > Identities > Modify > Cryptography > OpenPGP Signing Key -> Change. it shows my key, but won't let me choose it.
Piki	gpg-agent is running, and i have pinentry-qt set in .gnupg/gpg-agent.conf (path to pinentry-qt is verify)
Piki	TDE 3.5.13 on Deb Squeeze
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* Strangelv still only has seven desktnop screenshots' and that's including 1-2 duplicates
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 615 filed by jpisini@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=615 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, KSVG shows only black previews
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Piki	has anybody managed to get gpg working with kmail?
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edakiri	For Debian, I've updated apt, but am not seeing release 3.5.13 . Ideas?
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edakiri	I used the ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net repo.  Is that still correct?
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edakiri	Enabling "mirror.its.uidaho.edu/pub/trinity/trinity/debian squeeze" did not bring it either.
jumpship	the address has changed slightly
jumpship	from the 3.5.12 reseale
jumpship	release
jumpship	http://www.trinitydesktop.org/installation.php#debian
jumpship	ppa.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/trinity/trinity-v3.5.13/debian, notice the -v3.5.13
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Strangelv	morning, or am I guessing the worng continent?
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Piki	Strangelv: somewhere it'll be the right continent, or the right part of a continent :-)
Strangelv	Most of the world, and possibyl most of our developers are not on a continent where it's still morning
Strangelv	'afternoon' is probably the safer greeting
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Piki	unless you're one of my friends, he'll wake up in mid-afternoon and say "Good Morning", and he'll reason that to people just waking up, it's morning even though it's after noon
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Strangelv	I rotate forward.  Right now I wake up a few hours before sunrise after calling it a day in the late afternoon or early evening.
Strangelv	As much as thisl irritates some people, I irritated people more when I could never wake up before about 16:00
Piki	i generally just refer to what the clock and the sky say in my area
Strangelv	I'm more of a masochist, I suppose.  sometimes I've used more tahn one invocation to say hello to more than one person in more than one continent
Strangelv	"or even just North America when it's one thing on the west coast and another on the ast
Strangelv	or even East
Piki	don't forget the north coast and the south coast :-) Hola and Bonjour
* Strangelv waits for the Earth's rotation to abruptly shift by 90 degrees. He braces himself in futility for teh adjustment
Piki	hmm weird, synaptic thinks all packages are not authenticated, including the official debian repos
Strangelv	I need to catcrh up on authentications.  I'm too used to ignoring all the notices about missing certifications.  I get a lot of those
Strangelv	If you're running TDE right now, is there any chance of getting a screenshot from you, especially if you're doing something unusual?
Piki	everything should already be already authenticated, i have all the gpg keys
Piki	Strangelv: unusual?
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Strangelv	The idea is to do a video showing off just how configurable TDE is
Piki	would having both the knetworkmanager and wpa_gui tray icons next to each other be unusual? :-)
Strangelv	Jumpship has the most extremely customized desktop I've seen
Strangelv	He has VLC pulgged into his toolbar, which like mine is on the left edge of the screen
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jhutchins	Ok, this is very strange.  My desktop is wrapped about 1/5 off the right side onto the left.
Strangelv	Try adjusting your refresh rate, either with the display itselfg or in kcontrol?
Piki	Strangelv: i'll see if i can get something going :-)
jhutchins	When I choose KDE from trinity DM I don't have any of my old kde preferences, although  new preferences have been imported when I choose trinity.
jhutchins	Strangelv: Display was fine until after I'd started "Trinity" and konversation loaded up.  I added a kmail icon to the panel, moved the menu back to the left corner, and it suddenly re-adjusted.
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Strangelv	Possibly it was a border case until then?  The only thing I can think of that I've seen do this on either LCD or CRT is the refresh rate, so that's the only thing i can think to suggest
Strangelv	Guess i'll teed to say that again in a moment
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Strangelv	Possibly it was a border case until then?  The only thing I can think of that I've seen do this on either LCD or CRT is the refresh rate, so that's the only thing i can think to suggest
jhutchins	Very strange behavior.  I also appear to have lost my old kde configuration, including my address book and calendar.
Strangelv	"Could be a directory name change.  .kde3 -> .trinity?
* Strangelv looks to see what he has with 3.5.12
Piki	jhutchins: trinity saves its settings to ~/.trinity, kde would be either ~/.kde or ~/.kde3
Strangelv	"I have .kde and .kde3; no .trinity
Piki	jhutchins: you should be able to copy over the needed config files, though be prepared to remove them if it causes problems (i don't know if tde changed the way it saves it's config)
Strangelv	Maybeu this is something we needed to account for with the packaging?
Piki	Strangelv: weird, i have all thrree
Strangelv	"I'm running 3.5.12, beufore the .trinity and other changes
jhutchins	What's strange is that the stuff in .kde appears to be still there, but kmail/kaddressbook and conversation don't see it even if I pick KDE as my session.
jhutchins	Shouldn't there be a "import previous kde settings" dialog box on start-up?
Piki	i had the .trinity .kde and .kde3 in 3.5.12, i only have .trinity now with .13
Strangelv	We might havem dane enough potentially system-breaking things that we should have named it 3.6, and then put the planned stuff for 3.6 at 3.7.  Maybe also call it 3.05.x or 3.06.x
Strangelv	hmm
jhutchins	If I do help/about konversation it says "About Trinity".
Piki	jhutchins: i don't think there ever was one, but that'd be a good feature to add to the bug tracker
Strangelv	I wouldn't make it a dialogue -- I'd make it automatic, unless there's a reason someone doing the upgrade would wvant ot use that moment ot throw away their settings
jhutchins	I would make it an All/Select/None dialog.
Strangelv	"I also get about Trinity in 3.5.12
Piki	jhutchins: if the old KDE3 was removed, though, then it will still log you in to trinity, so it would only use the new settings
jhutchins	Not sure what behavior dpkg would have done by default (Debian Lenny).
Piki	My Help -> About Konversation gives me About Konversation, and has About Trinity separate (but still on the Help menu)
Piki	ah, lenny, that's 3.5.12
Piki	i didn't get to explore it thoroughly
Piki	jhutchins: if you have synaptic install, you can look through and see if you have any of the old KDE packages still installed. or you can use aptitude, or "dpkg -l | grep kde"
jhutchins	Piki: If the old KDE was removed, trinity-kdm wouldn't be offering it as an option, would it?
jhutchins	I'm still getting konversation taking up 99% of the CPU.
Piki	it might have just changed the KDE option to point to TDE
jhutchins	What's really strange is that that behavior has follwed me from Mandriva to Debian to Trinity.
jhutchins	Piki: That's what I would expect.
Piki	i don't know how the TDE packages were done
jhutchins	I wish it would leave the menu icon in the corner when I add new icons from the Menu to the Panel.
Piki	that's why i'm suggesting to see if the old kde packages are there, if not then that explains why it doesn't see your old settings, so your best bet would be to copy over the config files
Piki	jhutchins: normal KDE 3.5.10 moved stuff around on the panel when adding stuff too, so it's not just a TDE bug. it's less frustrating adding everything first and then rearranging
Piki	jhutchins: btw, any reason to stay with lenny? squeeze has been out for awhile, and can run TDE 3.5.13 (lenny is stuck  with 3.5.12)
jhutchins	Piki: 90% because I didn't want KDE4, 10% lazy procrastination.
jhutchins	It looks like old kde is still there.
Piki	you don't have to install kde4, you can go with one of the other DE's, or install with no DE and install TDE from there, you'll just have to remember to install everything you need to run Xorg
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jhutchins2	Let's see what kind of mischief this gets us into...
Piki	jhutchins2: you don't have to install kde4, you can go with one of the other DE's, or install with no DE and install TDE from there, you'll just have to remember to install everything you need to run Xorg
jhutchins2	Piki: What about upgrade strategies?
Piki	as in, upgrading from lenny to squeeze? i'm sure it's possible, i just never tried it, never used debian consistently enough to try
jhutchins	Piki: They usually go pretty well, but it would upgrade to KDE4.  Not sure what it would make of this mess.  The kde programs are still there, but the KDE session seems to be running the Trinity programs.
jhutchins	I should probably look at kdmrc...
Piki	jhutchins: if you plan to use TDE full time, you can remove the KDE3 packages beforehand, or try on a spare computer or partition
jhutchins	Any idea where the session type selections for kdm are configured?
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Piki	i'm running konversation right now for my irc, along with lopete, kontact (email/google calendar), and iceweasel, and my cpu is hovering around 90% idel, and i'm not getting any lag
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 616 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=616 normal, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, KPatience card set
jhutchins	Piki: It'll just do it once in a while.
jhutchins	Symptom is that konversation appears frozen, rest of the system may also be sluggish.
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 617 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=617 normal, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Trinity KDM default welcome message
jhutchins	Didn't happen on my Toshiba running Lenny.
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 618 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=618 minor, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, KDM Log File
Piki	the only time i had that was on an old dell laptop that would frequently overheat, haven't had it hapen since
* Strangelv sees the KPatience entry and again wonders what's needed ot add a game or variant. He has a variant of MOD3 he'd like to implement: aces go on top of jacks
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Aquarius	hey everyone
Piki	hi
Piki	oh yes, has anybody configured kmail to use their gpg key for signing? it shows mine, but won't let me select it
Aquarius	not me
Aquarius	have no need for kmail
Aquarius	but i have other issues..
Aquarius	for example, i can't safely remove flash device... it says something about some HAL file..
Aquarius	can't quite remember.
Piki	Aquarius: it would help if you can try one, see if you can get the error message :-)
Aquarius	what do you mean "try one"?
Piki	try to safely remove a flash drive
Piki	when the error comes up, tell us what it says
Aquarius	alright...
Aquarius	on my way.
Piki	if it's on debian, it always seems to have trouble with a file called fdi-cache, it always adds a ~ at the end (fdi-cache~), so it can't find the file and errors
Piki	but it would help to know for sure to have the error
Aquarius	http://89.28.122.14:8081/snapshot12.png
Aquarius	yeah, it is Debian
Aquarius	it's my phone actually.
Piki	Aquarius: i'm getting a message that the server has a limit on the number of simultaneous downlaods and that the limit was reached
Aquarius	hm
Aquarius	weird
Aquarius	nevermind that
Aquarius	well, do you see it?
Piki	Aquarius: look in /var/hal/cache/. if you see fdi-cache~ (with the ~), but there isn't any fdi-cache (without the ~), you'll have to rename it to remove the ~
Aquarius	hm... ok
Aquarius	let me try it
Piki	could not connect to host
Aquarius	damn
Aquarius	ok, wait
Piki	after renaming the file, you'll need to do "/etc/init.d/hal restart"
* Strangelv : Could not connect to host 89.28.122.14 (port 8081).
Piki	without quotes, both the file rename and the command need to be done as root
Aquarius	no such folder - HAL
Aquarius	hal that is
Piki	lower case
Aquarius	i know, i just wrote it here so
Aquarius	no such folder
Aquarius	http://89.28.122.14:8081/snapshot12.png
Aquarius	again.
Piki	Aquarius: do you have hal and hal-trinity installed
Aquarius	let me check
Piki	max simultaneous downloads limit again
Aquarius	well it can't be!
Aquarius	was alright for others
Aquarius	what the hell
Piki	Aquarius: it would probably be easier to type the error than upload it to a server, or try uploading to a different server
Aquarius	i don't wanna type this shit man.. it's too long
Aquarius	but i don't understand why you get such message... everybody uses it normally.
Piki	Download limit
Piki	On this server there is a limit on the number of simultaneous downloads.
Piki	This limit has been reached. Retry later.
Aquarius	no such thing man, it's only by your side.
Aquarius	and i dunno why
Aquarius	but wait.. let me check again with someone ele
Piki	my internet works just fine, i just never tried accessing aweb page through port 8081
Piki	ports 80, 8080, and 443 work just fine
Aquarius	well.. i can give you 8080, Jesus... wait
jumpship	It's working here, says failed due to:
jumpship	cannot open /media/.hal-mtab
Aquarius	i'm just curious already
Aquarius	yep
Aquarius	told ya!
Aquarius	it's only your prob man, i never heard people say that to me
Piki	Aquarius: Strangelv had that too
Piki	so it's not just me
Aquarius	he said "could not connect"
Aquarius	and that's because i shut it off by that time probably
Aquarius	let me give you 8080
Aquarius	just out of principle
Piki	well considering it's displaying an actual web page complete with html source code, i'd say it's not my internet
Piki	unless you just never hit the limit before, there are a lot of people in this channel
jumpship	dialog title is:
jumpship	Error - kio_media_mounthelper
Aquarius	http://89.28.122.14:8080/snapshot12.png
Aquarius	try now
Piki	still hitting the limit
Aquarius	pff
Aquarius	i dunno man :)
Piki	i know for sure it's not me, i've always been able to use 8080 without any trouble at all
Aquarius	anyway... let's stick with the prob
Piki	anyways, hal and hal-trinity
Aquarius	ok, let me check hal itself..
Piki	those packages should be there
Aquarius	hal is there, but can be updated.
Piki	my system also has hal-info, libhal1, and libhal-storage
Aquarius	0.5.14-3
Aquarius	it's current
Aquarius	and 0.5.14-7 is to be installed.
Aquarius	better update i think.
Piki	i have -3 here, so it should work
Aquarius	dunno then.
Piki	is hal running?
Piki	ps aux | grep hal
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Piki	should show a hald process
Aquarius	let me check
Aquarius	damiano   3677  0.0  0.0  13868   968 pts/1    S+   19:19   0:00 grep hal
Piki	any hald, e.g. /usr/sbin/hald or hald-runner?
Aquarius	hald is there
Piki	the grep hal only comes from using grep to filter out ps
Aquarius	no hald-runner
Piki	hmm, then i supposed try restarting hald: as root, runn the command:
Piki	/etc/init.d/hal restart
Aquarius	ok
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Aquarius	hm.. no such file or directory
DexterF	hey
Aquarius	i did as root.
DexterF	tried to setup volup/dn keys in kmix, keys are configured but pressing them does nothing
DexterF	i checked in xev: events are generated.
jhutchins	I'm getting strange behavior with kmail.  I usually run it forwarded from my lenny/kde3 (now trinity) desktop forwarded over ssh to my squeeze/kde4 netbook.  Since I installed trinity, it's giving me dialog boxes for my (should have been saved) passwords, and never showing the main window.  If I run /usr/opt/trinity/bin/kmail, it displays the first password dialog and then crashes.
jhutchins	Ah, which is what happens when I run it locally.
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Aquarius	so what do i do next?
jhutchins	/usr/bin/kmail on trinity is very slow to bring up password dialogs, still not displaying main window yet.
Piki	Aquarius: did you restart hal? i d/ced for a moment thanks to a dist-upgrade
Aquarius	it says no such file or directory
Piki	what file or directory?
Aquarius	/etc/init.d/hal restart
Aquarius	this
jhutchins	konversation is not using color for nics even though it's configured to.
Piki	that looks like a corrupt package, if hal is installed, then /etc/init.d/hal should be there
Aquarius	well... terminal says it's not there.
Aquarius	and i did root.
Piki	the only thinkg i can suggest is to reinstall all the hal packages you can find on your system
Aquarius	and it's really not there.
Aquarius	ok
Piki	corrupt package, or bad internet connection when installing it
Aquarius	ok, re-installing.
Aquarius	no
Aquarius	it's just not there like it's not supposed to be there.
Piki	it is supposed to be there
Aquarius	well... it's NOT there man...
Piki	i'm not saying it is
Aquarius	and what am i to do now?
Piki	i'm just saying it's supposed to be
Piki	if it's not, and reinstalling doesn't help, then i can't help
Piki	btw, don't get mad or impatient with someone who's trying to help, people are less willing to help when you do
Aquarius	i'm not mad or impatient
Piki	"[12:35] <Aquarius> well... it's NOT there man..." <-- from that, it looks like you are
Aquarius	listen...
Piki	especially since i said  it's supposed to be, not that it is
Aquarius	just.. chill. And thanks for assistance.
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Piki	telling me to chill when i'm already calm is what will make ME made
Aquarius	haha
Piki	mad*
Piki	and not willing to help
Aquarius	i'm not mad or impatient, just irritated. It's not the only prob i've had. So nothing personal.
Piki	i have a lot of work to do anyway, time to go to lurk mode
Aquarius	oh well. Seems like i have to re-install everything again. *sigh*
Aquarius	just because of some hal shit :)
Aquarius	at least to make sure that it never appears there or that was really some glitch by my side and it dissappeard. What else could i possibly do.
Aquarius	can anyone tell me which is better ext3 or ext4? I mean... i wanna know what's the optimal option here for today?
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jhutchins	Is there an easy way to completely remove trinity?
Aquarius	once installed you better keep it
Aquarius	but yeah, you may just find all "trinity-" files one by one and remove them
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Piki	Strangelv: i've uploaded 3 screenshots of my TDE 3.5.13 to http://linuxjutsu.com/~kris/Pictures/
Piki	i'm out of ideas of what to do now, not sure what's "unusual" i could do.
Strangelv	danke
Strangelv	let me try to scroll up to find the interesting examples I've seen
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* Strangelv : http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/444/jumpship.jpg/ -- most distinctive desktop I've ever seen
DexterF	how do I make kmix adjust pulse master with multimedia keys? key events work and are set up but kmix doesnt do anything
* Strangelv has no clue
* Strangelv looks at Aquarius and Piki
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Piki	i haven't used any multimedia keys in ages, and when i did, they were detected and configured automatically
Aquarius	Piki, just to inform: hal successfuly re-installed and now it's back on its place. But the issue persists.
Piki	Strangelv: helps when they don't use pop-unders that pop-up after they are already open :-)
Strangelv	"Okay, the mulitbedia keys on a keyboard.  I definitely can't help anyone theer as I painstakingly don't buy any keyboards that have those
* Strangelv wondecrs if he has enough desktop screenshots to make a miniature version of the proposed marketing video
Strangelv	"in time for tomorrow's meeting
jumpship	DexterF: the only thing I can think of is the "Select Master Channel" option, and the only way to get to it is to right-click on the kmix tray icon
Piki	Aquarius: if /etc/init.d/hal doesn't exist, then the final suggestion i have is to run /usr/sbin/hald directly, but that's what the file in /etc/init.d/hal is supposed to do, along with setting up the variables and pid file hald is supposed to have
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jumpship	Piki: I got hald running for him, but that didn't fix it, and I don't know enough about hal to help further
Piki	MutantTurkey: .de?
MutantTurkey	Piki: ssh'd in
DexterF	jumpship: why is that *only* in the systray icon.... well, anyway, if I chose the sound cards main channel instead of pulse master ir works.
MutantTurkey	apparently my VPS has been compromised.
jumpship	I don't know, it's been that way since the old kde
MutantTurkey	X_X do not  need to deal with this now.
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MutantTurkey	gah. this means my pgp key is comprimised, all my email accounts, therefore the possiblity of my credit cards.
MutantTurkey	X_X
Piki	call your credit card companies
Piki	delete the email accounts you don't need
MutantTurkey	Piki: yeah though I just checked - am okay.
MutantTurkey	seems as if the weren't going to private info.
MutantTurkey	though passwords all changed
MutantTurkey	there have been no checkins on my email so...
Piki	hopefully you created revokation keys for your pgp keys
MutantTurkey	yes and luckily I only used them for work
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MutantTurkey	whew
Piki	?
MobileTurkey	gmail logs are clean
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Piki	use two-step verification with your gmail
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: sup?
MutantTurkey	Piki: no cant do it
MutantTurkey	I am not on my PC very often, and I dont always have my phone.
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* Strangelv cancels the playback of Les Reed's _Man of Action_
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 619 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=619 normal, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Update support for Slackware 13.37
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Aquarius	seems that i don't have .hal-mtab file here..
Aquarius	Z_God, hey bro
Z_God	Aquarius: hi
Z_God	my connection is extremely unstable
Aquarius	what's up, doc?
Aquarius	hm...
Z_God	I hope there will be np tomorrow with the meeting
Aquarius	probably your provider or router.
Z_God	yes isp
Aquarius	ah.. ok
Aquarius	listen.. i've got another prob here..
Aquarius	mounting usb device is faulty. I can't unmount it (remove safely)
Aquarius	it brings the following error:
Aquarius	http://89.28.122.14:8080/snapshot13.png
Aquarius	wait
Aquarius	wrong file
Aquarius	http://89.28.122.14:8080/snapshot12.png
Aquarius	here.
Piki	i like dolphins who eat debs :-)
Aquarius	:)
Aquarius	does it work for you now by the way?
Piki	yes
Aquarius	ok
Piki	i can see the pics now, all without rebooting my modem/router :-)
Aquarius	ok.. happy to hear that
Aquarius	so.. i went and checked Media folder, there's no .hal-mtab file at all
Aquarius	only mtab lock or something.. and it's empty
Piki	btw, i dont\'t have a /media/.hal-mtab, and i don't have trouble umounting my flash drives
Aquarius	hm...
Piki	unless it's created when the flash drive is actually mounted
Piki	then deleted when it's not
Aquarius	well, it's mounted now, and it didn't create anything.
Xu_R	yo, mutantturkey &#65340;&#65288;&#65342; &#65342;&#65289;&#65295;
Z_God	Aquarius: seems to be a hal issue on debian
Piki	Aquarius: worst case, you can always go to a root terminal and use the umount command, that shouldn't require hal
Z_God	no idea about that
Aquarius	hm.. ok
Aquarius	what's the command?
Z_God	yes, that will definitely allow umounting at least
Z_God	umount
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Aquarius	yeah, but any parameters?
Piki	umount /dev/sdc
Aquarius	aha... ok, thanks
Piki	you specify whichever device you're umounting
Piki	that's the only parameter
Aquarius	i understand
Aquarius	worked
Aquarius	i mean.. firstly i ran the command and then clicked "remove safely". Success.
Piki	and to see what's mounted, just use:
Piki	mount
Piki	with no parameters
Aquarius	by the way, it works out of root too.
Aquarius	i didn't sudo it.
Piki	if it's mounted for normal user access, it'll work
Aquarius	ah..
Aquarius	i see.
Piki	otherwise, you need to be root to umount
Aquarius	understood.
Aquarius	i think this might've happened because of me fiddling with newer kernel and other stuff. Probably Trinity played its little magic too.
Piki	and if you umount something, the Remove Safely isn't necessary since Remove Safely is exactly the same as umount, except apparently it goes through hal
Aquarius	i understand that these are just different ways for the same operations but labeled differently.
Xu_R	Waiting for server side source service run.............................................................................
Xu_R	man, this takes a long time >>;;
Piki	Aquarius: if you're using either the kernel from debian's official repos or from debian backports, hal should work fine, i'm using 2.6.39 from backports right now without issue, and the preinstaled 2.6.32 from Squeeze works too
Aquarius	i tried 2.6.38 i guess. It caused me some troubles.
Aquarius	and weird ones.
Aquarius	Wine didn't work, VLC didn't play anything, only audio... and probably some other things too.
Aquarius	maybe that was just pre-configured mode that i messed up for newer kernel exactly, dunno
Piki	i haven't tried 2.6.38
Aquarius	how do i install 2.6.39?
Piki	are you on Debian Squeeze? (i don't know if it's available for Lenny)
Aquarius	Squeeze, yeah.
Piki	as root, open /etc/apt/sources.list, and add:
Piki	deb http://backports.debian.org/debian-backports squeeze-backports main
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Aquarius	ok. I think it's there actually.. left from my previous attempt... but i'll check.
Piki	you can add a deb-src version too if you want, but only the deb version is needed
Aquarius	yep, it's there.
Piki	then, as root, run:
Piki	apt-get update && apt-get -t squeeze-backports dist-upgrade && apt-get dist-upgrade
Aquarius	ok.... thanks. On my way
Piki	that'll upgrade your computer to backports, then whatever that needs updating that isn't upgraded from backports will be updated from the third apt-get
Aquarius	ok :)
Aquarius	hmm... i've got too many sources here... some of them are inaccessible...
Piki	after, reboot to get to the new kernel. if 2.6.39 isn't there, you'll have to specify it for install, but it should get pulled in automatically by the dist-upgrade
Aquarius	takes time.. i gotta filter them out
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Aquarius	yeah, it'll probably add it to grub
Aquarius	like the first time
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Piki	yes
Aquarius	Reading package lists... Done
Aquarius	Building dependency tree
Aquarius	Reading state information... Done
Aquarius	Calculating upgrade... Failed
Aquarius	The following packages have unmet dependencies:
Aquarius	libva1 : Breaks: vlc-nox (< 1.1.5-3) but 1.1.3-1squeeze6 is to be installed
Aquarius	N: Ignoring file 'opera.list.save' in directory '/etc/apt/sources.list.d/' as it has an invalid filename extension
Aquarius	E: Error, pkgProblemResolver::Resolve generated breaks, this may be caused by held packages.
Aquarius	there's a whole mess in my sources.list
Piki	hmm, maybe you got vlc from another repo other than debian or debian backports?
Piki	just in case:
Piki	apt-get -f install
Aquarius	probably from Sid.. i actually added Sid sources...
Piki	will have it check through to see if you have missing dependencies and install them
Aquarius	to get latest Iceweasel
Aquarius	oke..
Piki	you don't need sid for iceweasel
Piki	there's a mozilla backports that works just fine for that
Aquarius	well, i just got it from somewhere.
Aquarius	hm.. i got that one too
Piki	http://mozilla.debian.net/
Aquarius	thanks :)
Piki	that's the official mozilla backports page, it will give the line you need
Aquarius	The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
Aquarius	libglademm-2.4-1c2a gnome-audio libpulse-browse0 libcurl3 libgconfmm-2.6-1c2
Aquarius	libssh2-1 libspeexdsp1 libxcb-render-util0 libasound2-plugins
Aquarius	Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
Aquarius	0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 1081 not upgraded.
Piki	that is a lot to be upgraded
Aquarius	i removed it
Piki	btw, don't use sid or testing unless you absolutely need to, and if you do, try to avoid using them on your primary install
Aquarius	ok...
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Piki	http://debgen.simplylinux.ch/ <-- that can generate a sources.list for you using some of the more well known repos, you just select your release and country and it will give you the mirrors for your country (or that are closest to it)
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Aquarius	nice!
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ben_	Trying to get a minimal Trinity Install so I can run kde3's konsole on ubuntu 10.10 (maverick). kded is dieing with:
ben_	kded [kdeinit]: symbol lookup error: /opt/trinity/lib/libkdecore.so.4: undefined symbol: _Z14get_tqt_x_timev
ben_	DCOP aborting (delayed) call from 'anonymous-5679' to 'kded'
ben_	kdeinit: PID 5679 terminated.
ben_	Any ideas what lib that come from?
Piki	it mentions /opt/trinity/lib/libkdecore.so.4
Piki	i never had that error, so i don't know how to fix it
ben_	yea I got that. I assume that lib is trying to call another?
ben_	ldd libkdecore.so.4  doesn't show anything missing either
Piki	libs don't call each other, programs call the libs, normally an undefined symbol indicates an issue with the lib in question, normally either something went wrong in compiling or something got broke by the devs
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jumpship	ben_:  I can't be sure, but that reminds me of something I seen on the mailing list or bug tracker, I think archives of the mailing list are on the web site and the bug tracker is searchable
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 620 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=620 normal, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Fix 'KDE Control Module' Branding
Piki	Strangelv: i uploaded another screenshot playing a MMORPG that supports linux, and it's still got the wanderfully amazing Hello World sticky :-P
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 621 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=621 normal, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Fix 'KDE Control Module' Branding
Aquarius	i've changed the list with help of that website you gave me. Now kernel is being updated.
Aquarius	Jesus.. how do i get past this announcement...
Aquarius	in terminal
Aquarius	what do i push to skip it already..
Aquarius	This version of xserver-xorg-video-nouveau is linked against a newer
Aquarius	libdrm-nouveau which breaks the ABI and is not compatible with kernels
Aquarius	<= 2.6.33.  You need to upgrade the kernel to 2.6.34-rc1 or newer.
Aquarius	-- Sven Joachim <svenjoac@gmx.de>  Sat, 22 May 2010 10:22:42 +0200
Aquarius	(END)
Aquarius	ah... Q..
Aquarius	dammit..
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Strangelv	Piki: what I'd be most looking for admittedly are things you probably wouldn't want to change on your main machine: how and where do you have your toolbar?  What style and decorations are you using? Aer you doing something really weird and interesting with Konqueror?  ideally things you wouldn't be abel to do with anything else
Strangelv	Thus my trying to get ones from multiple people who have already done this sort of thing presumably
Piki	ah
Piki	i generally go for plain and simple
Piki	never did anything fancy with my desktop :-)
Piki	Strangelv: i think i can get something going though :-)
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MutantTurkey	Piki: meeting tomorrow.
MutantTurkey	12PM
Piki	meeting?
Piki	hi Borg^Queen
Borg^Queen	hi hi
Piki	MutantTurkey: meeting for what?
MutantTurkey	for trinity desktop developers and users?
MutantTurkey	whats up Borg^Queen
Piki	MutantTurkey: i don't know, that's why i'm asking you
Borg^Queen	Nothing much, recovering from all the storm damage.
Borg^Queen	Lots of it give Irene and the snow
Xu_R	Borg^Queen: there's a post-3.5.13 release meeting tomorrow, care to stop in?
Borg^Queen	I will. What time?
Xu_R	12 noon
Borg^Queen	EST
Xu_R	yes
Borg^Queen	ok
Xu_R	I'll probably be late, slaving away in physics til 12:30
Borg^Queen	I can tell you TDE has been getting some praise locally
Xu_R	then with a strict programming teacher til 1:20 >_<
Xu_R	:D
Xu_R	wait, do you have an etherpad account?
Borg^Queen	I do but I never used it
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: Excellent
Borg^Queen	The only complaint is its on ubuntu
Borg^Queen	but I really don't care, its not about ubuntu
Xu_R	Borg^Queen: no, you had an account before we had the wipeout >>;;
Xu_R	request an account again
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: its on fedora too now
Xu_R	and check out what we have so far for topics :)
MutantTurkey	and RHEL? Arch is ready...
MutantTurkey	also Suse is .... well how is suse? Xu_R
Borg^Queen	Don't like Fedora, bad community
Borg^Queen	Arch I like
Piki	Strangelv: perhaps Borg^Queen can get you some pics of her metallic Mac theme :-)
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: fixing up like usual
Xu_R	ironically nothing is cooperating with me right now >>;;
Xu_R	ok, I'm going to head to dinner early
Xu_R	Mom's gotta head to work
Borg^Queen	k
Xu_R	later all
Piki	i tried arch the other day, i could only find 3.5.12 links in their wiki, said there were pkgbuild scripts only for 3.5.13, .12 complained of hal dependencies, couldn't install it, so had to go back to debian
Borg^Queen	debian and clones tend to be too gnome dependant
Borg^Queen	or has that changed
Piki	yeah
Borg^Queen	it has changed?
Piki	some of the packages that work fine without libgnome-blah-blah seem to pull in gnome stuff
MutantTurkey	Piki: what do you mena/
Piki	Borg^Queen: dunno
MutantTurkey	why didn't you use 3.5.13?
MutantTurkey	whats wrong with pkgbuilds?
* MutantTurkey doesn't get why people dont like them
Piki	MutantTurkey: i am
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: like what?
Piki	i don't feel like compiling TDE
MutantTurkey	with a decent AUR helper, you can do it all automatically
MutantTurkey	Piki: meh. all you have to do is yaourt -S trinity-kdebase
MutantTurkey	and let it run for a few hours
Borg^Queen	on suse?
MutantTurkey	no no no this is Arch
Borg^Queen	ah ok on the same page now
Borg^Queen	Doesn't arch use rpms anymore?
Piki	Borg^Queen: pkgbuild scripts are the pacman equivalent to RPM spec files
Borg^Queen	yes, I remember
Borg^Queen	but no more rpms then
MutantTurkey	except automated
Borg^Queen	?
Piki	MutantTurkey: i only have a laptop, it heats up a lot when compiling stuff, especially the hard disk, which stops working when it gets too hot
MutantTurkey	and integrated heavily into archlinux
MutantTurkey	Piki: sigh
MutantTurkey	Piki: I have local packages if you want them...
Piki	i'm afraid it's going to fail of heat damage soon, so i'd rather not compile stuff until i can get Ark Linux packages going
Borg^Queen	true
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Borg^Queen	piki would it be upgradable from 2008.1
Borg^Queen	hi gcsimon
Piki	MutantTurkey: i already have TDE setup the way i want it on my Debian install, i want to keep my spare partiton for ark
Piki	Borg^Queen: only if bero switches back to rpm4
MutantTurkey	gotta go dinner
Borg^Queen	what version of debian
Borg^Queen	how is rpm4 going
Piki	Borg^Queen: 6.0 Squeeze
Borg^Queen	no way to upgrade from rpm4 to 5?
Piki	Borg^Queen: it's not, that's why we're using rpm5
Borg^Queen	What's the latest debian?
Piki	Wheezy, which is in testing
Piki	and there aren't any TDE packages for wheezye because it's release isn't for at leat 1.5 years
Borg^Queen	have all the bugs been fixed for rpm5
Borg^Queen	Granted I should have said latest stable release
Borg^Queen	or official release
Borg^Queen	I never include testing as a release
Piki	rpm5 works fine, bero just needs to decide on what to do about apt-get, he can either use mandriva's apt-rpm5 port, or finish porting zypper
Piki	Squeeze is debian's latest stable
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Borg^Queen	which is more likely zypper or apt-rpm5
Piki	dunno
Borg^Queen	brb
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Piki	on one hand, more people are familiar with apt since apt-rpm is just the rpm port of the same apt that debian and clones use, so it's easier to help out. but apt-rpm4 isn't well maintained, and apt-rpm5 is fairly recent.
Piki	zypper is easier to use because the typing is easier, e.g. "zypper in" instead of "apt-get install", but bero hasn't finished porting it to rpm5 yet
Borg^Queen	I see
Borg^Queen	that's cute zypper in lol
Piki	the best person to ask is bero, but i haven't managed to get any response from him lately
Borg^Queen	I know
Piki	he's showing up more often than before, but sporadic, so it's still hard to contact him
* Strangelv hopes to get something ready for the meeting tomorrow morning. He needs to stop pretending he's awake
Borg^Queen	Honestly he needs to make a decision. Stick with it or let it die.
Piki	Strangelv: ?
Borg^Queen	lol
Borg^Queen	Go to sleep young human
Piki	Borg^Queen: he has to choose either apt or zypper, or design his own, in order to make it work. OR he has to go back to rpm4, but that involves repackaging EVERYTHING in the devel repos, so could take a long time
* Strangelv thought everypone running Debian was running either testingo r unstable
Borg^Queen	I used to use Debian
Strangelv	"Same here
Borg^Queen	But found ark. I'
Piki	Strangelv: i need stable :-)
Borg^Queen	m still using the 2008 release
Borg^Queen	Works great but its a little outdated in some respects
Strangelv	I used Libranet to get past its legendarily bad installer, then Libranet expired.  After a long wait I found Kubuntu right before the release of 5.10
Strangelv	I only had 5.04 for possibyl as little as a week
Piki	debian stable isn't as stable as i'm used to from Ark stable, though, but until i can get TDE packages going, the latest Ark won't be stable :-(
Piki	(of course, 2008.1 is the stable version)
Borg^Queen	aye
Borg^Queen	Strangelv: go to sleep!
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Piki	Strangelv: i'm working on a new face-lifted screenshot, check my link later when you have a chance
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Borg^Queen	wb and brb, folding clothes.
Piki	http://linuxjutsu.com/~kris/Pictures/tde_3513_desktop_fancy.png <-- looking for some advice on how to unique-ify this for Strangelv's slideshow
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Piki	btw, Linux support made it to the world of MMORPGs :-)
MutantTurkey	where?
Piki	Tibia
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Piki	whoops
Piki	Tibia has an official Linux client
Piki	http://www.tibia.com/
MutantTurkey	runescapes been workin for years
MutantTurkey	:)
Piki	i don't think they have source code, but the client does work if you DON'T use the shell script but instead execute the Tibia file directly
Piki	MutantTurkey: that's in java, and it's the only one i know of
Piki	though i've seen a few non-online java games
Piki	but yeah, java is a given since it's cross-plateform
Piki	if i'm not mistaken, most games use C++, and they don't run within a web browser like runescape does
MutantTurkey	Not sure
Borg^Queen	what is runescape
MutantTurkey	I dont really play games
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: one of the oldest 3D MMORPG's around
Borg^Queen	ah
Piki	Borg^Queen: MMORPG written in java
MutantTurkey	I wasted many an hour as a child
Borg^Queen	don't really play games
MutantTurkey	quite a feat actually
MutantTurkey	they wrote an entire MMO in java
MutantTurkey	all the drawing OP's and backend stuff is in C++ or using like OpenGL
MutantTurkey	so it's really not terrible in that way
Borg^Queen	I always wanted to try WOW but only when it becomes fully linux
* Xu_R kicks xchat to stop screwing with his away status
Xu_R	back
Piki	most of the people i talk to use windows to play their games, and they wouldn't care the OS if it weren't for their games
Xu_R	Cedega became free. I'm satisfied in terms of games now.
Xu_R	:P
Piki	Borg^Queen: WoW runs great on Wine, it just doesn't support linux directly
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: Try Minecraft. Also all in Java. And on Android too XD
Piki	Xu_R: cedega kicked the subscriptions?
Xu_R	yup
Xu_R	it's all free now
Piki	minecraft? i heard of that somewhere...
Xu_R	known as the GameTree Developer Program
Xu_R	and anyone can download Cedega now
Xu_R	the goal is to get games to work with Wine and Cedega
MutantTurkey	anyway, I dont care about games to much
Piki	someone i talked to actually said he'd switch to linux except he doesn't feel like tweaking anything to make his games work. he said people got them working, but they require tweaking, and he's too lazy for that
Borg^Queen	What I don't get is. Blizzard and companies like it, admit that linux is the better plateform, they would sell just as much or more games, but they don't port to it. Which is easy since they devel the game on linux and unix.
Borg^Queen	brb
Piki	they don't develop on linux, they develop on mac, which is a different flavor of unix, so it should (theoretically) be easy to port the mac client
Piki	and it is theoritcally possible to compile virtually any software on linux provided there's a library that supports the programming language it uses
Piki	they would sell more games, but we have to remember the power that MS holds on desktop computing and the power Apple has in tablets and smart phones
Piki	the game companies know MS wouldn't be happy to lose busines, and they don't want any trouble. at the very least, they don't want to listen to the complaining
MutantTurkey	it really isnt though
MutantTurkey	Mac and Linux have different drawing backends
MutantTurkey	unless they are drawing in OpenGL(doubt it)
MutantTurkey	then you're screwed
Piki	most games use directx, which is MS only
Piki	so they'd have to convert it to opengl, which AFAIK isn't supported in windows as of vista
Piki	though they can compile the opengl libs for windows and include it in their installer
Piki	anyways, need to get going for awhile, if you guys can look at my screen shot and send some feedback (PM me, i'll keep my irc client logged in, or email kris@linuxjutsu.com), i'd appreciate it, i'm preparing it for Strangelv's slideshow
Piki	http://linuxjutsu.com/~kris/Pictures/tde_3513_desktop_fancy.png
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MutantTurkey	yawn
MutantTurkey	Piki|Away: that is nice
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MutantTurkey	hey Vandroy
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: can you put out an email bump about the meeting?
MutantTurkey	babysitting >_>
Borg^Queen	A human child?
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: sure.
Xu_R	done
Borg^Queen	ok must go, bbt
Xu_R	night Borg^Queen
Borg^Queen	ok must go, bbt
Borg^Queen	oops I mean gn to all
Xu_R	xD
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* Piki thinks BQ is a robot pervert with the way she refers to us 'humans'
Piki	wow, someone messed up the pingus package in debian, there's no pingus being add to any of the bin dirs
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Baho	hello
Piki	good evening
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woodsman	hello
woodsman	bye
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Qu4Z	So the dev meeting is in like 13.5 hours or so, right?
* Qu4Z sucks at EST, or anything other than GMT really
Piki	Qu4Z: EST is GMT-4hours
Piki	when summer time begins, it'll be -5 hours
* Piki double checks the meeting time
Piki	Qu4Z: 12 noon EST, 8 in the morning GMT
Qu4Z	Thanks :)
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Piki	what channel is the meeting in?
MutantTurkey	Qu4Z: hey
MutantTurkey	is that bad?
MutantTurkey	I tried to pick the most middle of the road time :/
Qu4Z	Should be fine :)
Qu4Z	I'm not a "real" dev anyway
Qu4Z	I'll try to make it, though.
Qu4Z	I recently tried to build from git, then found out it wasn't ready yet. cbf checking out another 3G of svn sources
Qu4Z	I'm a "want to start helping out and fixing bugs, when I get aroudn to it, eventually" dev :P
MutantTurkey	there are no such thing as "no dev"
MutantTurkey	if that is so then I am not a dev either :P
MutantTurkey	"want to start helping out and fixing bugs, when I get aroudn to it, eventually"  was me a short time ago :)
Piki	/dev/zero/Piki
Piki	:-)
MutantTurkey	LOL
MutantTurkey	okay guys I am going to bed
MutantTurkey	see you all bright and early at 12PM EST NOON MEETING TRINITY DESKTOP DEVELOPERS BE THERE OR BE SQUARE
* MutantTurkey hopes maybe that will catch someones eye >_>
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: what about the meetbot?
Piki	what's the channel?
MutantTurkey	#trinity-desktop-meeting
Xu_R	MutantTurkey: Meetbot should work when you're op'ed
Xu_R	start a meeting with !startmeeting <topic>
MutantTurkey	can we test it?
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 622 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=622 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, K3B Branding Issue
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rzs19	hello
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* Strangelv tries to wake up enough to remember the specifications for the marketing video he needs to mimic
Strangelv	prototype would be a better term
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Piki	Strangelv: http://linuxjutsu.com/~kris/Pictures/README.html <-- the ones with fancy in the name are probably the closest to the screenshots you were looking for
* Strangelv grabs one of the nem ones
Strangelv	"new, too
* Piki thinks the eyes look a little creepy
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rzs19	who cares about your eyes, the name is soo sweet ;D
Strangelv	What is its name?
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MutantTurkey	good morning good morning~
l0ner	morning?
l0ner	it's 16:13
MutantTurkey	well morning for me :)
Piki	l0ner: not here in the USA :-)
l0ner	And It's not good, since I need to return to school :(
_Pete_	l0ner: your clock is out of ntp-sync
MutantTurkey	l0ner: will you not make it?
l0ner	nope
MutantTurkey	dang :/
l0ner	I'll probably need to stay until 20:00
l0ner	and that's when meeting begins
l0ner	and i need 1h to return home
MutantTurkey	the meeting should last at least an hour
MutantTurkey	dang.
l0ner	yep
l0ner	anyway I stated pretty much everything I think in the etherpad
l0ner	so I don't think so I have much to add
l0ner	damn IT professor
l0ner	why he needed to delay our lesson so much?
MutantTurkey	tell him you have a devel meeting >_>
l0ner	I whish he would understand...
l0ner	If it wasn't obbligatory lesson I'd just return home sooner
MutantTurkey	your professors are not understanding...
l0ner	yep
MutantTurkey	I just tell my professors I cannot make it and they say OK cya next class
l0ner	they'll probably say, ok, cya next year
MutantTurkey	sigh
MutantTurkey	where do you attend university?
l0ner	if i'm not there today, they won't allow me to partecipate in exams
l0ner	Siena
l0ner	Italy
l0ner	and today is programming practice
MutantTurkey	I see
l0ner	but there is a little hope it will finish sooner than it should
l0ner	but it's up to prof
MutantTurkey	right
MutantTurkey	well in any case there will be Logs available.
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l0ner	and he is fat, short old piece of sh*t
l0ner	and hates us all
l0ner	becaus he knows we are better than him
MutantTurkey	sorry to hear that
MutantTurkey	samelian, how are you?
l0ner	But I heard they are going to replace him by new semester
l0ner	damn, I need 2 go
l0ner	cya guys!
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samelian	MutantTurkey: fine, as usual :)
MutantTurkey	excellent
Piki	does anybody have kmail setup with a gpg signing key? kmail shows my key, but won't let me choose it
Piki	wtf? the menu bar and tool bar in kmail and kontact are missing...
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Z_God	used to have it when I was still working
Z_God	but I cannot say much other than I had it all working in 3.5.11 at work :)
Z_God	that^
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Z_God	you should make sure that you have everything visible in kgpg & so on as well
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Piki	test
rzs19	test?
Piki	rzs19: TDE had a strange crash
rzs19	okay?
MutantTurkey	backtrace?
Piki	MutantTurkey: ?
MutantTurkey	nevermind...
Piki	rzs19: crashed X, then crashed it again when i tried to start it again, and kpersonalizer went into an endless loop of trying to start with no X running, wouldn't let me CTRL+C it so i had to reboot
Piki	then my keyboard didn't seem to work, had to reset it in kcontrol and restart konversation
MutantTurkey	I wish CTRL+ALT+BACKSPACE
MutantTurkey	was reenabled
MutantTurkey	like it used to be
Piki	MutantTurkey: it isn't?
MutantTurkey	X used to crash all the time all you had to do is hit that key and it would reset
rzs19	you can reenable it in your xorg.conf
MutantTurkey	Piki: disabled by default now.
MutantTurkey	rzs19: I don't want to :P
MutantTurkey	I remember the days of xorg.conf and they werent pretty
rzs19	i hope i got today more time to work with bluetooth.
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darrell	hello, testing my connection
MutantTurkey	hey darrell
MutantTurkey	nice to see you can drop in :)
* MutantTurkey is calvin morrison btw
MutantTurkey	assuming you are darrell anderson...
darrell	yup
Piki	unfortunately X doesn't always detect my video card, so i have to keep a backup copy :-(
MutantTurkey	Excellent
darrell	last night i connected as woodsman but today I can't
MutantTurkey	someone may have it registered.
MutantTurkey	I suggest you pick a IRC nick and register it.
MutantTurkey	http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/15 <- this is awesome but totally disorganized
Piki	woodsman has been registered since June: /msg nickserv info woodsman
darrell	too bad. that is a long time online nick name I have used. :(
darrell	meeting is still at 12 EST right? 1 hour from now?
Piki	yes
darrell	ok, I'll stay logged in but got things to do ...
Piki	darrell: if a registered nick isn't used awhile freenode can drop it so you can use it. i forget how long they have you wait, but you can ask in #freenode
darrell	anything I should do to prepare for this meeting --- haven't attended one before.
Piki	nickserv says that it hasn't been used since june 10
darrell	for this list not using a nick name is no pain --- I have avoided IRC/IM this long and I don't think I'm going to become addicted today. :)
Piki	darrell: just read up on the etherpad link from MutantTurkey so you know what we're going to discuss
MutantTurkey	darrell: I see you point, but I love IRC xD
MutantTurkey	It gives a friendly side of computer projects, just hanging out and chatting, also it makes discussions easier
MutantTurkey	email is all business for me, no play.
MutantTurkey	darrell: did you ever figure out if 3.5.10 and Trinity can coexist?
MutantTurkey	I saw you email but didnt really know the answer.
darrell	Re: 3.5.10/Trinity: will be testing soon. T packages get installed in /opt so no conflict there. Main concerns are autostart and K-Menu
darrell	got to attend to chores right now so I won't need to miss the meeting. open to ideas about testing Trinity co-existing with 3.5.10
MutantTurkey	Okay
MutantTurkey	Does anyone want to make any points not listed in the meeting pad? please let me know
Z_God	is the meeting already in an hour?
Piki	about about 40 minutes
Piki	MutantTurkey: reading now
Z_God	hmm, seems something went wrong with the planning
MutantTurkey	Piki: if you can clean it up too then that would be good?
MutantTurkey	Z_God: what do you mean?
Z_God	I understood we had an 8 hour difference
Z_God	but it's only 17:23 here now ;)
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Z_God	seems a calculation mistake indeed
Z_God	I may be there about 30 minutes later then
Piki	it's 12 noon EST, if i'm correct that's 8 in the morning UTC
MutantTurkey	Yes
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Z_God	I'm UTC+1 now
Z_God	and it's 17:26
Z_God	or 5:26pm
Piki	my clock reads 11:25 EST, that's 35, minutes from the meeting
Z_God	so we have only 6 hours difference
Z_God	I just updated the pad
Z_God	I will come back as quickly as possible after dinner
darrell	do you folks typically keep this channel open all day and hang out here?
Z_God	darrell: some do yep ;)
darrell	is this a better place to receive Trinity help than the mailing list?
Z_God	if you use konversation, it's easy to stay in loads of channels without really realizing it
Piki	this channel is 24/7, some of use aren't :-)
Z_God	it can sit in your tray and autoconnect, etc.
MutantTurkey	darrell: yes its all day
MutantTurkey	pretty much
MutantTurkey	well I just sit here alL DAY
MutantTurkey	ITS A GOOD HANGOUT SPOT
MutantTurkey	whoops. caps off sorry
MutantTurkey	darrell: its good for small things, like asking samelian about cmake or something general
MutantTurkey	FTBFS and patches and stuff are good for the ML
MutantTurkey	but both work
darrell	i'm frustrated by the kdm problem in slackware. I believe the problem is authentication. I'm guessing kdm is trying to authenticate through some backend like pam.
darrell	where do I learn more about how kdm authenticates?
Z_God	you have any logs from kdm?
Z_God	I suppose you can enable debugging
Z_God	also /var/log/auth.log shoud show failed/succeeded auth attempts
darrell	the only kdm log is /var/log/kdm.log, which is mostly useless -- very repetitive of xorg log.
MutantTurkey	darrell: reading the kdm source?
Z_God	darrell: I guess you can enable more logging in kdm
darrell	yeah but i don't know c or c++ :). I struggle trying to think my way through C/C++ code.
darrell	how do i enable verbose logging in kdm?
Z_God	it seems a bit quick to look at the source code already
Z_God	I would expect an option for that in one of the config files
Z_God	or maybe a parameter
darrell	I almost always log in from the command line but I need to test kdm before I post binary packages.
Piki	it appears my etherpad account disappeared
Z_God	there's probably one to run it in the foreground
Z_God	and using that in combination with some verbose or debug options, maybe through some stuff on your stderr or maybe stdout
Z_God	yeah
Z_God	seems this should do it
darrell	within the KDE/Trinity framework, which irc client do you folks prefer & why?
darrell	re: stderr/stdout with kdm: how to do that? everything is graphical?
Z_God	kdm -nodaemon -debug 0xfff -error mykdmerrors.log
Z_God	that should give a lot of stuff
darrell	ah -- "-debug" --- firing up VM now to test.
MutantTurkey	darrell: I like konversation
MutantTurkey	other than that irssi
Z_God	kdm --help shows all the options
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Z_God	darrell: if you use -nodaemon to start kdm
Z_God	you can use ctrl+alt+f1...f6 to get back to it
Z_God	I mean to the terminal where you ran it
Z_God	and it should still be attached to it
Z_God	if you're using a VM, you may need to find out how to send these key combos to it and not to your host
Piki	re the hal thing on the etherpad, i thought KDE4 required it?
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samelian	darrell: if i correct remember, I ported kdm to cmake only with pam support
samelian	MutantTurkey: when is the meeting?
Piki	samelian: 8 in the morning UTC
Piki	about 15 minutes from now
samelian	aha, 19:00 EEST
Piki	12:00 EST
Strangelv	11:00 CST
Piki	we're UTC-4 hours
samelian	hehe, here is evening already :)
Piki	watching the etherpad type itself without my touching the keyboard is weird ;-)
Z_God	I'm going for dinner now
Z_God	hope to be back in about 40-50 minutes
darrell	kdm: I'm trying different debug options --- nothing obvious in any logs.
Z_God	trying to log in doesn't produce anything?
Z_God	bbl
darrell	kdm: yeah, I'm in a VirtualBox VM and Ctrl-Alt-F1 doesn't work or Ctrl-Alt-Del
darrell	kdm: log in produces a "Login failed" message, whichis why I think there is an authentication problem.
darrell	how do I build without PAM?
Piki	meeting in 10  minutes, everybody make sure you're in #trinity-desktop-meeting
darrell	slackware does not use PAM. If PAM is hard-coded then that explains the problem.
darrell	Slackware provides PolicyKit but using that is not required. I don't have PK running and the KDE 4 KDM works just fine. So the PAM explanation makes sense.
darrell	kdm: I see a WITH_PAM option in the cmakelists.txt file. Looks the default is OFF. Do I have to explicitly use that option to ensure PAM support is exlcuded?
MutantTurkey	Hello Everyone! we are having a trinity developer meeting in #trinity-desktop-meeting please join us!
* Strangelv hastily puts together a 'I'm still not ready but I'd better have SOMETHIG to show' version of the mascot together at the end of the animated GIF ad proposal presentation
MutantTurkey	ok:)
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darrell	Just rebuilt kdebase with WITH_PAM=OFF. No change, still can't login with kdm. :(
MutantTurkey	schreiberstein: meeting
schreiberstein	MutantTurkey:  Hello!
MutantTurkey	#trinity-desktop-meeting <- go there
Strangelv	later, MT
Strangelv	Thank you for chairinrg the meetin
MutantTurkey	thanks for coming
MutantTurkey	:)
Z_God	darrell: it seems you should try building with autoconf
Z_God	based on samelian's remark earlier
samelian	Z_God: I think I put support for password as well, but is not working on my system
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darrell	Z_God: there is no longer any support to build kdebase with autotools :(
Z_God	ah it was removed?
Z_God	I didn't know
Z_God	I thought it was possible to use both..
darrell	Tim was emphatic about using cmake with the core modules. If building with autotools is possible, support no longer exists.
Strangelv	Automake broke compatibility with an incrimental revision one time too many, from what I understand.
Z_God	I don't know, but maybe it's the only way is the cmake port is incomplete
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samelian	darrell: try to compile it with autotools
samelian	if password support is ok, I will try to fix cmake
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Strangelv	Ther's still post-meeting discussion in #trinity-desktop-meeting
Borg^Queen	hi
Borg^Queen	How goes the meeting
MutantTurkey	It's over now
Borg^Queen	really bloody hell. Xu_R said he's be late so I thought I could work a little later myself.
Strangelv	The meeting was tightly paced
Borg^Queen	Usually its not :(
Strangelv	I'm not used to meetings going that quickly, but that could just be MutantTurkey's style
Borg^Queen	Curse your efficiency MutantTurkey
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Borg^Queen	Oops
Borg^Queen	I take it back
Strangelv	Would you like to throw rotten fruit at my presentation?
Z_God	Borg^Queen: look at his ping time-out ;)
Z_God	he was probably already gone
Z_God	there are channel logs though
jumpship	Maybe a hunter scared him, this time of year must be tough
Borg^Queen	Ah true
Borg^Queen	Z_God: aye
* Strangelv : http://dimensionality.com/tqtde/LB15_presentation_1700.gif -- nits welcome
Z_God	Strangelv: looking good
Z_God	but you probably want to use screenshots of lower resolution systems
Z_God	so that there is more of trinity visible and less of non-trinity related apps & background
Strangelv	WE could also zoom in
Strangelv	Also, I presume we'd use a higher resolution for a video than 800x450 and encourage the user to view it fullscreen.  Lower resoulito is an idea if we can get our volunteers to do that...
Z_God	it should be done anyhow for good screenshots imo
Strangelv	TokRa wasn't here to volunteer her desktop, but I used the screenshot of it I had anyway
Borg^Queen	Strangelv: well done, but see if you can slow it does, on fast systems it goes by in a blur. You should have something like
Z_God	screenshots of huge desktops are not really nice to look at
Borg^Queen	p4 hi res
Borg^Queen	p2 lo res
Z_God	Borg^Queen: it was slower the 2nd time here
Borg^Queen	fast / slow
Strangelv	I ran out of time before the meeting to adjust the timing.  Yes, that's a big nit.  Any ideas in terms of miliseconds?  I could tweak the animation accordingly
Borg^Queen	Z_God: ah
Z_God	gif timing issue maybe
Borg^Queen	10 secs a shot
Strangelv	Most of the screenshots are set for 800ms
Z_God	1 sec per shot
Z_God	or 2-3
Z_God	and indeed 10 for smth longer
Borg^Queen	Z_God: visually impaired read slower
Strangelv	Any nits on the mascot proposal tacked on the end as an afterthought?
Strangelv	Not so much becaues I was ready, but that as log as I've been wokring on it I felt I needed to have SOMETHING to show...
Z_God	if you're really going for a mascot
Z_God	be very careful with what you pick
Strangelv	It's actualyl my seriosu ide' -- more serious than I was about the robot
Borg^Queen	what mascot?
Z_God	so that you won't have to dump it after years of using it like the Mozilla project had to do
Strangelv	There was no discussion, let alone vote.  I do hope it gets a lot more discussion time than the revision number did
Strangelv	What did Mozilla run into?
Borg^Queen	Z_God: mozilla didn't dump the mascot, it added, Mozilla is the mum
Z_God	similarities with other characters that were "owned" by other companies
Z_God	Borg^Queen: they had to drop the green dragon
Borg^Queen	Oh yes, and the phoenix
Z_God	I would not even know where to start with researching that properly though
Strangelv	I couldn't find any open source projects with a crow for a mascot.  I ended up trying that because it met Tim's wish that it be an animal -- and that it still managed to meet what I was looking for.  Crows can use tools.  They can use human words.  They're amazingly intelligent and adaptable
Borg^Queen	So you want a crow for a mascot?
Strangelv	That's what I'm wanting to propose, yes
Borg^Queen	That can be done, even if someone else is using one since a crow cannot be "owned"  but it does need to have something unique about it
Borg^Queen	I like the idea
Strangelv	Standalone image without animation: http://dimensionality.com/tqtde/LB15_Mascot_Head.png
Strangelv	I gave it early 20th century pilot's goggles
Borg^Queen	Cute
Borg^Queen	but it doesn't look like a crow, its looks like a generic bird, which could be to our advantage.
Borg^Queen	brb
Z_God	I hope there are no other software companies with such a mascot
Z_God	I remember seeing a penguin before that looked kinda similar ....
Borg^Queen	There are several, but its ok
Strangelv	Processes for looking for this would be in order
Strangelv	IANAL, so I'm not as familiar with ways to look as others would be
Borg^Queen	Because animals cannot be copyrighted, only the unique configuration CAN
Borg^Queen	oops caps
Strangelv	I considered ravens, but they seem to have black beaks.  A yellown beak oloks better
Borg^Queen	Ravens are my family bird dating back thousands of years
Z_God	Borg^Queen: maybe there is a difference between real animals and fantasy ones (like dragons)?
Borg^Queen	yes
Z_God	I guess fantasy ones could be claimed in some places
Strangelv	I defirite0ly would like something simpler than KDE's dragon
Z_God	maybe bring back Kandalf ;)
Borg^Queen	Mozilla didn't have the money to fight. But fighting has become easy now that the person sueing is responsible for the cost
Strangelv	A rule of thumb I've heard is if a pre-tween can draw it in crayon
Borg^Queen	brb
drvodka	whut
Strangelv	Kandalf?
drvodka	whut
drvodka	oh sorry
Strangelv	An earlier KDE mascot?
drvodka	whut
drvodka	i was testing a script, it wasn't supposed to come out here
Z_God	Strangelv: sounds perfect, let a steady handed 9 year old draw the new mascot :)
drvodka	whut
Z_God	Strangelv: yes
Z_God	the one from KDE 2
* Strangelv looks
Z_God	http://www.kde.org/screenshots/images/large/kde2final_1.jpg
* Strangelv fginds the preusumed plantiff in short order -- not the Tolkein estate as he'd assumed
Z_God	dunno why they dropped it
drvodka	whut
Z_God	I liked it then
drvodka	whut
Strangelv	There's a company with that name
Z_God	ok
Z_God	maybe someone can kick that whut bot...
Strangelv	But if we could bring him back he wouldn't need to be a mascot.  HE could be our Klippy stand-in
Z_God	Strangelv: I think kandalf is still the name of the tips program
Strangelv	After all, Microsoft learned that while Bob was a disaster, its characters and art assets were a long-term gold mine
Z_God	ah no, ktip
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Borg^Queen	BOB, I've heard of it but what is it?
Borg^Queen	all I find is how bad it was
Z_God	I think you have to be even older than me to remember that
Z_God	I never saw it either
Strangelv	I never actually had it, but I once saw a web site that described it
Strangelv	it was aimed at kids and inexperienced users with a house metaphor
Strangelv	With integrated applications
Borg^Queen	Oh right, the intergrated desktop thingy
Strangelv	Clippy, Rover, and other Microsoft characters made their debut there
Z_God	it was before windows 3.1?
MutantTurkey	oh god
Strangelv	I believ ethat's waht it ran on
MutantTurkey	Clippy...
Z_God	ah
Z_God	I did use that
Borg^Queen	I hate clippy
Z_God	even to get online, but didn't see bob then
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Borg^Queen	brb
l0ner	i made it!
l0ner	is meeting on?
Borg^Queen	hi
Z_God	microsoft had this while microsoft agent stuff for a while
l0ner	hi
Borg^Queen	its over, like me you can in too late
Z_God	l0ner: it was 2 hours earlier
Strangelv	Clippy was given a crappy job with a task the AI was not up for.  Someone DID come up with a revised mission for Clippy that users instantly loved.  It got shot down, largely becues it was sending Microsoft bug reports...
l0ner	damn
Z_God	me & tim made the same mistake
Z_God	and maybe others as well....
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l0ner	log?
Strangelv	If you don't like changing our version number to 14, you're going to wish you were there to add to the 'nay' column, although after Tibm explained it some more to me I'm a little less horrified by it and the damage control problemts it could create
Z_God	l0ner: I guess it'll be here at some point http://ftp.heanet.ie/pub/lincomlinux/MeetBot/trinity-desktop-meeting/2011/trinity-desktop-meeting.2011-11-15-16.39.html
l0ner	kay
Z_God	Strangelv: you also saw the notes on the etherpad about it?
* Strangelv <[lindaemon]> Log: http://ftp.heanet.ie/pub/lincomlinux/MeetBot/trinity-desktop-meeting/2011/trinity-desktop-meeting.2011-11-15-16.39.log.
l0ner	yep
Strangelv	Onyl brliefly.  I couldn't find teh link and still can't sign in
Z_God	Strangelv: should be public
Strangelv	so by the time I tad the link I was scrambling to look between it and a meeting that was moving faster than I could keep up with alrady
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: can you get those logs setup and send out a post meeting thinger?
* Strangelv checks his email
* Strangelv still has no response from his registration attempt with Etherpad. Is it manually handled?
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: sorry If I moved to fast
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: afaik yes.
MutantTurkey	I couldnt really go any slower because no one was contributing in the beginning
MutantTurkey	if nobody says anything I take it to mean we just move on
Borg^Queen	That reminds me Xu_R asked that I get an etherpad account, how do I do that. Go to trinity directly and get it from there?
Strangelv	You're trying to fill in air time, but some peolp could be multitasking.
MutantTurkey	understood
Strangelv	"anther possibility: if more people might be showing up late, ask if there's objection to holding a 5 minute recess?
Z_God	Borg^Queen: timothy created mine as far as I remember...
MutantTurkey	either way the meeting was good.
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: I started at 12:05
Borg^Queen	please email out the log
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: yes it will be out once it sync
MutantTurkey	I am leaving that to Xu_R
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Borg^Queen	ok good
MutantTurkey	hey grayed
Borg^Queen	hi grayed
Strangelv	I was thinking in terms of others not having things t say.  I'd try to offer more trickis, but I'm not quite in prime shape right now and am still trying to recurperate from rushing together my presentation
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: there is a lag
Borg^Queen	aye
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: I do like your gif though
Z_God	I think the meetings should be slower next time
Strangelv	nits?
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: what do you think of his little clip?
MutantTurkey	Also, Strangelv how did you make it?
MutantTurkey	Z_God: OK duely noted.
Strangelv	I made it in GIMP
Z_God	and there should be a bit more time between planned start and actual start ;)
darrell	Hey, I updated the About/FAQ pad with a response about comparing Trinity with KDE4. That pad needs some focus by members if we want to publish any time soon. Needs fact checking too.
MutantTurkey	Z_God: it was almost an hour though...
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: pardon?
Z_God	also we need the big boss present
Borg^Queen	the presentation
MutantTurkey	Z_God: well he got confused so I had to start without him.
Strangelv	The confusion with the start time didn't help.
MutantTurkey	I didn't know what to do honestly X_X
Z_God	MutantTurkey: that's ok
Z_God	but next time, what I would do
Strangelv	Half the peolpe showing up to attend were at teh end or after the end
MutantTurkey	the time from now on will be 12PM
Z_God	try to go over only the topics for which he is not so important
MutantTurkey	Z_God: yes
Z_God	and postpone any other topic
MutantTurkey	I am glad we came to a concensus about the RElease date
MutantTurkey	i mean release topic
MutantTurkey	i man the release name
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: setting a time is very hard
MutantTurkey	I mean the release number
MutantTurkey	>doesnt know what he is saying
Strangelv	well, decision, not consensus
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: 12PM EST is going to be now standard
MutantTurkey	because 90% of the world is awkae
Borg^Queen	logical
Z_God	but it's dinner time here ;)
MutantTurkey	setting it later makes it impossible for europeans to make it
Strangelv	I can offer no better suggested time
MutantTurkey	Z_God: I know exactly why I made it noon
MutantTurkey	if i made it 7PM, you would be well asleep
Strangelv	...and if anything Europe is even more important for us than North America
grayed	hi all. thanks for clarification about the time, :) I missed all the fun due to the late fix of MSK time there
Z_God	MutantTurkey: you made it 6PM
MutantTurkey	Z_God: -_-
MutantTurkey	I made it 12PM Noon EST
Strangelv	If you're going hto cut a continent out of the meeting, it had better not be Europe
MutantTurkey	grayed: yes sorry, it's always a hassle to get timing done correctly.
Z_God	MutantTurkey: but I realized where the confusion came from
MutantTurkey	I was clear in the emails.
Z_God	I wrote 16h then
MutantTurkey	anyway... :P
Strangelv	Standardizing could definitely help with the confusion
Z_God	and it seems you read it as 6, and that's why it appeared to be 8 hours difference
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: exactly
Z_God	we only have 6 though
Strangelv	Ther are some who will never be able to attend, but that would be the case at any chosen time
Z_God	I guess you're are really unused to 13+ hours there
Z_God	for us am & pm is confusing ;)
MutantTurkey	THAT IS WHY I SAID NOON!
MutantTurkey	sorry for caps, using a silly mac
Strangelv	People here look at me like a nutcase when I give them 24 hour times.
MutantTurkey	i figured, noon is noon.
Strangelv	That doesn't stop me -- I don't like 12 hour times as they're too prone to being ambiguous
Borg^Queen	lol
Z_God	the best thing to do is also add GMT at least
Z_God	everybody knows their time based on GMT
Strangelv	well, most people in this crowd, anyway
Z_God	Strangelv: 24 hour ftw!
MutantTurkey	not everyone knows that.
MutantTurkey	24 hour GMT next time
Z_God	MutantTurkey: ok, but that would cover it in addition to your timezone I'd say
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	what time zone is everyone from?
MutantTurkey	(trying to get an approximate idea)
Strangelv	If most peolp ein Europe know GMT, GMT and Eastern Time?
Z_God	GMT+1 here (+2 in summer)
Strangelv	"DO we need a reference point east of GMT, say Moscow or similar?
MutantTurkey	...
grayed	GMT+0400 (MSK after recent changes in Russia)
Z_God	Moscow is stuck at GMT+4 now
Z_God	grayed: &#1076;&#1091;&#1084;&#1072;&#1077;&#1096;&#1100; &#1090;&#1086;&#1078;&#1077; &#1101;&#1090;&#1086; &#1091;&#1078;&#1072;&#1089;&#1085;&#1086;? ;)
Borg^Queen	We all need to meet in null time. Back to building a TARDAS.
grayed	less info means less errors in it, I'd go with GMT only :)
Strangelv	If you need storage space too you'll want to grow one -- the built ones exist in normal space
grayed	Z_God: &#1087;&#1086; &#1082;&#1088;&#1072;&#1081;&#1085;&#1077;&#1081; &#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1077; &#1095;&#1072;&#1089;&#1086;&#1074;&#1099;&#1093; &#1087;&#1086;&#1103;&#1089;&#1086;&#1074; &#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1083;&#1086; &#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1100;&#1096;&#1077;, &#1077;&#1089;&#1083;&#1080; &#1090;&#1099; &#1086;&#1073; &#1080;&#1079;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103;&#1093; &#1086;&#1090; &#1052;&#1077;&#1076;&#1074;&#1077;&#1076;&#1072; :)
* Strangelv needs the storage space less after moving into a 4 bedroom house.
Borg^Queen	grayed: simplicity speaks accurate volumes
Z_God	grayed: yeah, that's true, but it's annoying there's so much time between us
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Strangelv	If the clock is still the topic, the Moon Society holds its meetings at 21:00 Eastern time.  This not only makes it a little too early for people on the west coast, it also means that the guy in Ireland when he makes it it's in the wee hours of the morning.  When we had a director in Australia he was on in the early afternoon...
Borg^Queen	Strangelv: I like your presentation and would like to offer my metallic desktop setup screenshots.
Strangelv	"GO right ahead.  I could try to tweak the prototype, but someone has suggested lowering the screen resolutions
Strangelv	The core idea is to see if we can show things that you can't do with other environments
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: I think we need more time between them though
MutantTurkey	but starting slowly
MutantTurkey	then rapidly speeding up
MutantTurkey	until flickering by
MutantTurkey	then Super Imposing the TDE Logo
Strangelv	I picked the last one carefully -- Jumpship's desktop is the most mind-bogglingly unique I've seen
MutantTurkey	and under neath flash "how do you do trinity?"
MutantTurkey	what do you think of that?
MutantTurkey	also we probably will want to do this in a real movie editor
MutantTurkey	gimp might not be the best tool
Strangelv	Any ideas about the mascot concept that I took out of the bag, admittedly with insufficient preparation?
MutantTurkey	I'd like to just upload a video also
MutantTurkey	I am totally indifferent about any mascot honestly
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Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: I have one word for you
Borg^Queen	THANKSGIVING!
Strangelv	The animated GIF solution in GIMP was what I know how to do and enabled me to get something done in time for the meeting.  It's not ideal for serious video for multiple reasons -- actually the most serious of which isp robably the limited color palette
Borg^Queen	Strangelv: I have a multipart solution
Strangelv	Then there's the problem with getting audio to it even if it can be timed with milisecond accuracy in Audacity to match the animation
Borg^Queen	Create pngs, then use digikam to create an mpg, then convert it to flv
Borg^Queen	you have two small video options
Z_God	Borg^Queen: why flv?
Strangelv	I would gladly hand the action item over to someone else.  I'm always a walking bottrleneck danger
drvodka	if you have pngs, use the -mf option on mencoder to make a video from them
Borg^Queen	small file size
MutantTurkey	flv NO
Z_God	the best thing is something that actually works in our current Konqueror
MutantTurkey	we will just upload it to youtube as an AVI
Borg^Queen	oooh sorry I mean omv
Borg^Queen	or ogv
MutantTurkey	youtbue is the best place imho
Borg^Queen	sorry
MutantTurkey	everyone can see it there.
Strangelv	flv is sort of like JPEG -- it's what you end up with for certian situations
Borg^Queen	youtube aye
MutantTurkey	plus we dont have to stream it
Z_God	otherwise yep ogv or webm
Strangelv	YouTube is phasing out FLV -- upload their new fgormtat and I belien it will convert to flv for backwards compatibility purposes for you
Z_God	MutantTurkey: does youtube work again in the new konq 3.5.13?
MutantTurkey	webm/html5
MutantTurkey	Z_God: no idea.
Strangelv	I have no idea.  I use YouTube with Firefox's UnPlug -- download to disk and play with VLC
Z_God	the konq from trinity can handle quite a bit
* Strangelv refuses to install anything Adobe
Z_God	but it needs to be semi targetted nowadays
Borg^Queen	what is youtube using now?
Strangelv	YouTube's primary seems to be .webm
Borg^Queen	Strangelv: I'm with you on adobe
drvodka	most h264+mp3 in mp4 i think
Borg^Queen	webm is that google video right
Borg^Queen	I don't trust google
Strangelv	I believe so
Z_God	it's vp8 with vorbis
Strangelv	So it's sort of like Tehora
Strangelv	Theora being IIRC a vp2 variant
drvodka	oh, i just checked a yuoutube video, h264+aac in mp4
Z_God	Borg^Queen: it's the only free modern format there is
Strangelv	Theora is also free, but is an older technology
Borg^Queen	Free for now
Z_God	actually I'm in Europe, so the rest is free enough for me as well ;)
Borg^Queen	lol
Borg^Queen	doc, YT is using multi format for now it seems
Strangelv	Yes
Strangelv	.webm, mp4, and flv
Strangelv	possibyl in that order
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 623 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=623 normal, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Error Message When Opening Panels Control Center
* Strangelv looks at the Jolt Cola nomination banner and laughs
* Strangelv : http://aka-cdn-ns.adtechus.com/images/333/Ad1839437St1Sz171Sq20381842V0Id3.gif
Borg^Queen	is jolt cola still on the market?
* Strangelv isn't using anything recent enough to have anyone to nominate
Strangelv	I honestly don't kinow
Strangelv	I stopped caffeine cold turkey just a few days shy of exactly 20 years ago
MutantTurkey	what bird is that?
Borg^Queen	?
Strangelv	:: holds up a hermetically sealed glass cylinder with the amount of X you get to use after quitting X 'cold turkey'
Z_God	it's a special dish
Z_God	made of turkey
Borg^Queen	What is X?
Z_God	it has to be cold, with some salad
Borg^Queen	Revenge?
Z_God	and a coffee flavoured sauce
* Strangelv may need a different term to use. HE's a vegetarian
Z_God	there's some caffeine in that
MutantTurkey	no i am talking about the mascot.
Borg^Queen	Strangelv: likewise
MutantTurkey	LOL
Z_God	that's why it's called caffeine cold turkey
Borg^Queen	That's the mascots name?
Borg^Queen	I can live with that, but I thought it was a crow?
Z_God	lol
Strangelv	X as I used it was a variable.  in my case, X was caffeine after i broke a promise to myself tever to use caffeine pills again
Z_God	I was just joking
Strangelv	My relationship with caffeine was seriously abusive
MutantTurkey	20 year ago? I was not yet born
Strangelv	I was in the Air Force
Borg^Queen	Strangelv: java monkey hard to shake aye?
Z_God	as if MutantTurkey asked what caffeine cold turkey was for a kind of bird
Strangelv	I managed to avoid getting hooed on coffee -- probabyl because I don't like hot beverages
Borg^Queen	pardon, you hoed yourself for coffee?
MutantTurkey	a good cup of joe in the morning helps me go
Strangelv	LB15 doesn't have a name.  It's based on what I courld remember of a sketch I did, but I couldn't remember the date, so it's LB15 instead of L8?? or so
Borg^Queen	Soda is my caffpow
Strangelv	I had a flaming alcoholic point to my soda can and tell me that that soda meant as much to me as a beer did to him
Borg^Queen	lb15 is the crow's name?>
Strangelv	It's a code.  Not a name.  iT lacks a name
Strangelv	Just like the robot
Borg^Queen	Spiffy the Crow
Z_God	Trinny :P
Borg^Queen	too obvious
Strangelv	It's a cryptic dating scheme I came up with in 197 when i was trying to cram as much as I could into a 8.3 compliant filename
Borg^Queen	Ooh "Tick"
Strangelv	hmm
Strangelv	Tick as an homage to gears?
Z_God	what about Timothy?
Borg^Queen	Aye, timeless eh?
Borg^Queen	Z_God: oh harsh lol
Z_God	or just Timmy
MutantTurkey	we cannot name it tim
MutantTurkey	tim is already named tim!
Z_God	Timmeh!
Borg^Queen	TIMMY! sounds like the kid in South Park
MutantTurkey	yeah.
Borg^Queen	lol
Z_God	Borg^Queen: exactly ;)
MutantTurkey	we dont need anyone who has mental issues runnin this gigi
Borg^Queen	Z_God: evil minds think alike
Borg^Queen	I mean great minds
Z_God	would be a cool mascot though :)
Strangelv	Yeah, setting up name confusion for future meetings wouldbe a problem best described as self-inflicted
Borg^Queen	o0
Z_God	Borg^Queen: lol
Borg^Queen	Strangelv: true
Z_God	next time we can all join the channel meeting channel with other nicks
Z_God	and the best one will be the mascot name
* Strangelv watches the mascot claim control of the gavel during the meeting and rules his motion out of order
Borg^Queen	Bloody hell
Borg^Queen	heck heck I mean heck
* Strangelv sulks
Borg^Queen	???
Borg^Queen	Plus, there can be 2 other mascots
Strangelv	The chair actually, if Robert's Rules are followed, doesn't actually have that much control over business once the meeting starts
Borg^Queen	The Trinity get it?
Borg^Queen	The chair is ajust a mediator
Strangelv	I'm trying to avoid that as I'm adamwantrly wanting to avoid any confusion over relicious
Borg^Queen	Point of fact: I hate Robert's rules of order
Strangelv	"Yes.  The chair only is supposed to vote when his or her vote would change the outcome of the vote
Borg^Queen	tie breaker aye
MutantTurkey	?
Strangelv	I have about 10 years of experience with it and probably need to break down and buy a copy
Strangelv	actually, it's slightly different than tie breaking
Borg^Queen	>:
MutantTurkey	roberts rules of order pish posh
Borg^Queen	agreed
Borg^Queen	CHOAS forever!
Strangelv	IIRC the chair could also muscle in if one's vote could cause a tie
MutantTurkey	If nobody ran the meeting it would be well offtopic in a second
Borg^Queen	CHAOS I mean
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: and your point being???
Strangelv	You can have chaos under Robert's Rules.  Chaos is not to be confused with randomness
MutantTurkey	that someone has to order it
Borg^Queen	lol
Z_God	what about Ytinirt?
Borg^Queen	Well I am the queen
* Strangelv long ago lost track of the number of meetings he's chaired. he can probably count all of the conventions, though
Borg^Queen	ouch
MutantTurkey	also irc is different than real life a bit
Strangelv	wel,l actually with precinct conventions that rapidly gets ambiguous...
Strangelv	I believe I've chaired three county conventions.
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Strangelv	IRC and other chat systems have teh same advantages and disadvantages.  Key one being that you can look up and see what was said a moment ago
Borg^Queen	joeytwiddle: hi
Borg^Queen	right, I'm off. Hopefully I'll bbl
Strangelv	I have a lot less trouble in an online meeting.  The worslt is a telephone meeting with all the real-time of an in person meeting and none of the benefits.  Plus you can hear all sorts of interesting sounds, even more interesting if the meeting is an international one
Z_God	Strangelv: I actually think it sucks IRC doesn't have history, Jabber MUCs frw
Z_God	ftw*
Strangelv	family members yelling at each other in Italian and Japanese
Strangelv	ftw?
Z_God	for the win
Z_God	when you join a jabber muc
* Strangelv will try to remtember that
Z_God	you just see what was said before
Strangelv	I've admittedly not been on Jabber for years, and that was mostly to connect to AIM
Z_God	on IRC, the first few bits never make sense for a newcomer
Borg^Queen	Z_God: what do you mean doesn't have history
Z_God	Borg^Queen: yes, I never got the history of a channel on IRC when I joined it
Strangelv	I lost my ... list well before then.  ...and at the moment I can't even remember what it is/was.  Mirabelis before AOL bought them
Borg^Queen	Z_God: Oh I see
Z_God	with Jabber MUCs this is default
Borg^Queen	well I'm off. later lads
Z_God	you get a large part of the history, as much as your client requests I guess
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* Strangelv waited a long, long time to break down and join the propiretary IM protocol and still got a number that was only 2 million something
MutantTurkey	cya Borg
* Strangelv waves belated/y
Strangelv	Skype also hasa  distory you can mine
Strangelv	if you're using it for text chat
Z_God	skype has everything you don't want
Z_God	and nothing you do want
Z_God	at least last time I used it
Strangelv	I'm running... 2.2
Strangelv	IIRC 4 for MS windows is a show-stopper if you're tyringto participate in a text meeting
Z_God	I don't know what I was using
Z_God	it was about 6 months ago
Z_God	latest for lucid
Z_God	text messages never arrived
Z_God	and of course it still doesn't interoperate
MutantTurkey	skype is terrible.
Z_God	and the UI is just a mess
Strangelv	I've recently refreshed my history on the weekly skype discusison i participate in
Z_God	I use Psi+ for IM now
Strangelv	It still goes back to 15 May
Strangelv	In this case the choice wasn't mine anyway
Z_God	yes, I was also forced at work to use it
Z_God	so I only used it with my bosses
Z_God	but most of the time I had to e-mail everything anyhow
Strangelv	I was invited to a meeting of a close gorup of insiders on a specific topic, many of whom -- including the person running the informal meetings -- didn't know me boferehand
Z_God	because it would not arrive with skype
Z_God	yeah it's always strange when people use smth like that then
Z_God	better use normal jabber or irc, so everybody can choose their own program
Strangelv	I probably should get on jabber again sometime.  Can't be where I used to be, as that system went down years ago and I was its sole user for about its final year: jabber.asi.org
Z_God	Strangelv: maybe you already have a jabber address somewhere
Strangelv	My main hangout is technicalyl a MUD
Z_God	many free mail providers also do jabber for example
Strangelv	strangelv@jabber.asi.org -- only jabbher.asi.org ceased to exist years ago
Z_God	just use the address from a jabber client & it'll work
Strangelv	or was it jamesg?  I actually can't remember anywore
Strangelv	There are multiple MOO-compatible clients that can connect to moo.asi.org port 7777
Strangelv	Right now I use GNOME MUD
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Strangelv	before I finally made the upgrade to 64 bits I was using Papaya, only the 64 bit builds crashed almost instantly, and there was no longer an upstream
Z_God	MUD is like a game right?
Z_God	Strangelv: btw you don't have smth like gmail?
Strangelv	In a pinch the user can connect with TELNET or even at least one IRC client -- but like IRC you can't get a history of what's been happening in the background.  It's an older techology and it shows in many regards, although the flebixility it provides can be fun
Strangelv	I don't have or use gmail
Strangelv	Google already knows more than I want them to about my habits and friends
Z_God	hehe ok
Z_God	maybe another free mail address
Z_God	it depends a bit, but more & more are also supporting chatting over jabber
Strangelv	I'm washing I had a good alternative to their search engine.  For most searches I've used a wrapper: https://ssl.scroogle.org
Z_God	also ISPs I guess
Strangelv	I've used the same email address since 1997
Z_God	ok
Z_God	I was not using e-mail then...
Z_God	my English was kinda limited :S
Strangelv	a small, struggling computer game company you've never heard of unless you were part of the Quake I gaming scene in mid 1997, in which case you may have merely forgotten us
Strangelv	I wish i had any capabilities with a non-coding language that wasn't English
Z_God	no I still play Commander Keen
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Z_God	till this day
Strangelv	I've even forgotten most of the German I was throwing around as a haphazard horror when trying to commtunicate with Germans who spoke no English -- which off-base was most of them
Z_God	it's never too late to learn a language
Z_God	but you need to have a good motivation
Strangelv	It also helps to not have serious brain fog
Z_God	someone or certain people to speak with
Strangelv	Point taken there
Z_God	you will always forget it again otherwise
Strangelv	I've read that Esperanto can be a useful on-ramp -- first learn esperanto to learn a language designed to be easy to learn, then try another language -- the example the article used was French
Z_God	you mean when you grow up with really one language?
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Z_God	otherwise, I don't think it would be really needed I guess
* Strangelv is also wanting to construct a non-human language for a story setting he's referring to 's 'Misused Sword', but it's on a Lord of the Rings scale and he needs to write a few other things first. He way not be able to complete it in his lifetime
Strangelv	There are people in this area woh also speak Spanish, but the only people who got any Spanish lessons prior to high school or so were people woh could speak it already
Z_God	I'm trying to study polish right now actually
Z_God	I will have a test tomorrow .....
* Strangelv looks for a polish video with English subtitles to show Z
Z_God	it's written thank god
Strangelv	This could motivate you to try to follow the spoken. 8)
Strangelv	...if I can find it...
Z_God	a listening test, not sure if I'd be able to handle it
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Z_God	you have smth specific in mind or?
Strangelv	very specific, yes
Z_God	ah :)
Strangelv	This might be it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwChGNOgt50
Strangelv	yup
Z_God	looks like polish at least :)
Z_God	dzi&#281;kuj&#281;!
* Strangelv is compretely at the mercy of the subtitles
Z_God	I can understand some bits & pieces
MutantTurkey	if someone speaks during our promo video
MutantTurkey	I think it should be someone who can actually speak clear english
MutantTurkey	(nothing against european/russians, but you can often be difficult to understand)
Z_God	MutantTurkey: native speaker is always better
Z_God	nobody will argue about that
Z_God	Strangelv: I'm going to send this around to the group :)
Z_God	it even contains quite a few words we have to learn quite clearly
MutantTurkey	aye
Strangelv	I'm glad you enjoyed it.  I just wish there was a higher resolution version I could find
samelian	MutantTurkey: find for a texan, I like texan accent :)
* Strangelv is from Texas but lacks a Texas accent. He never had one
MutantTurkey	samelian: you watch to many old movies I think.
samelian	haha
MutantTurkey	all americans are not John Wayne
Z_God	Strangelv: especially the beginning is hilarious
Z_God	although I don't understand the polish
MutantTurkey	More americans are like Mr T :P
Z_God	MutantTurkey: yeah get Mr T as a mascot for Trinity
MutantTurkey	http://www.taintedcanvas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/mrt1.jpg
MutantTurkey	LOL ys
Strangelv	Just don't call for the ambulance from Lodz
* Strangelv does'nt remember seeing anyone tyring to be Mr T even in the 1980s during the peak of his celebrity
Z_God	I'm not expecting one so :)
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samelian	whois Mr T?
MutantTurkey	some people say my dad is a mr T doppelganger
MutantTurkey	but my dad isn't even black! LOL
MutantTurkey	samelian: the most badass man ever
Strangelv	Hello.  The topics are marketing, accents, Mr T, and a dangerous ambulance in Poland
MutantTurkey	http://www.taintedcanvas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/mrt1.jpg <- see the picture
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: dont forget thanksgiving!
Raevyn	Hello!
MutantTurkey	Hey Raevyn
* Strangelv was far more impressed by the guy who got ahold of the detonator on the ship of the indicted in Dark Knight
Raevyn	:)
Raevyn	I have a small question.. well two actualy. Is the new DVD out for Trinity?
samelian	in HD format :)
Raevyn	and the other is, has anyone encountered errors when upgrading to .13?
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 624 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=624 blocker, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Can't Login with KDM
* Strangelv looks for the disc images and sees that the DVD is still for Meerkat -- so probably still 3.5.12
MutantTurkey	I don't know why slack doesnt use PAM?
MutantTurkey	weird.
samelian	MutantTurkey: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyenRCJ_4Ww
samelian	this is pretty good for us :)
MutantTurkey	?
samelian	we are TDE, resistance is futile :)
MutantTurkey	:P
MutantTurkey	hehe
Raevyn	Yea thats what I was seeing still too.. 10.10. And I cant seem to get the update to work. I mean, it starts updating but fails at a package so it wont take anything
Strangelv	Which package?
Strangelv	You should be able to get the install to work
Raevyn	One sex.. let me boot the vm up
Raevyn	lol sec
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* Strangelv may not be the best pair of eyeballs to catch the problem. he's still running 3.5.12
Strangelv	hello
darrell	hello, testing kopete
darrell	/exit
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samelian	Strangelv: how is correct: "devices was enumerated" or "devices has enumerate"
samelian	I don't know when I should use "was" and when "has"
samelian	is the same with "devices have been enumerated"?
samelian	english is hard :)
Z_God	samelian: you have to give more context
Z_God	also was & has are 3rd person singular only
Z_God	you need to use the regular form for 3rd person plural
samelian	what is difference between has and was?
Z_God	you know russian right?
samelian	pretty good
Z_God	was -> &#1073;&#1099;&#1083;
Z_God	has -> &#1091; &#1077;&#1075;&#1086;/&#1082;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086;
Z_God	was is a form of to be, in the past
Z_God	and the full form in this case is: to be enumerated
samelian	I undestood, but is still unclear for "has"
Z_God	you can use have to express a perfective form as well in english
Z_God	and that is what you are trying here
Z_God	but because the full form is "to be enumerated" you have to keep this "to be" which changes to "been"
samelian	you mean, "have been"
samelian	?
Z_God	yes, this is correct to have a perfective form
Z_God	the devices were enumerated would mean almost the same here though
samelian	aha, I forgot about "were"
Z_God	also, have been makes it passive
samelian	hmm, so many form to express a single thing :)
Z_God	so I guess that would be the most suitable form
samelian	russian is a lot simpler :)
Z_God	with tenses, I guess yes ;)
samelian	"&#1073;&#1099;&#1083;" and that's all :)
Z_God	what about a passive form then?
Z_God	I haven't learned that yet
Z_God	so I really don't know it
samelian	I have no ideea, I learned english on the fly :)
Z_God	I mean in Russian
samelian	I have no english formal studies
samelian	aha
Z_God	I don't know how to say for example "he was seen"
Z_God	in Russian
Z_God	because I haven't learned the passive contruction yet
Z_God	or maybe easier "he is seen"
samelian	hmm, i'm not sure that is direct traductible
samelian	translatable
samelian	bleah
Z_God	hehe
Z_God	I'll probably learn it some time
samelian	evo vidali, for "he was seen", i guess
Z_God	so it would really be "they saw him"?
Z_God	there's no passive?
samelian	i'm not sure what is "passive"
Z_God	when the subject isn't performing the action described by the verb
Z_God	he's not seeing himself when he is being seen
Z_God	I'll ask a rusisan friend, sec
samelian	or ""he was seen" = "evo videli"
samelian	i have no ideea, when I speak, i choose correct form instinctively, I don't think about grammar :)
Z_God	I have the same with english
Z_God	but you're switching the subject to "they" in those sentences in Russian
Z_God	so that &#1077;&#1075;&#1086; is the object there
Z_God	and it becomes an active sentence
samelian	yes, when I speak russian I rephrase it
Z_God	my friend also said &#1086;&#1085; &#1074;&#1080;&#1076;&#1084;&#1099;&#1081;
Z_God	but that's just a verb made into an adjective
Z_God	&#1074;&#1080;&#1076;&#1080;&#1084;&#1099;&#1081;*
samelian	this meaning "is visible" or something like this
Z_God	kinda yeah
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samelian	sometimes things are not directly translatable
samelian	otherwise sounds unnatural
Z_God	yep true
samelian	you are native english speaker?
Z_God	&#1086;&#1085; &#1074;&#1080;&#1076;&#1077;&#1085; seems to be it
Z_God	no, dutch
samelian	aha
samelian	much harder :)
Z_God	the language?
samelian	yes
Z_God	it's easy :))
samelian	at least, for me
samelian	is like a german mixed with english, right?
Z_God	kinda yes
Z_God	we do not have cases anymore
Z_God	like english
samelian	english have very much forms for past
Z_God	what's your first language?
samelian	i'm russian, from parents
Z_God	english has a special tenses system
samelian	but I live in Romania
Z_God	dutch tenses are more like the rest of europe
samelian	so Romanian is my primary language
Z_God	you even speak it with your parents?
samelian	yes
* Strangelv attempts to keep up and is also confused by the enumerated devices
samelian	we talk an obsolite form of russian
Z_God	which one?
samelian	is kind of russian dialect
Z_God	where are your parents from?
Strangelv	The 'be' verbs: am are is was were be being been
samelian	they was born in Romania, our ancients come from Russia, few hundred years ago
Z_God	Strangelv: yeah, you should guess the russian ones ;)
Strangelv	Do we have enough words for 'be' or should we crate a few more?
Strangelv	"Russian has even more?
Z_God	Strangelv: you can even type the ones for the present tense :)
samelian	now I try to remember if in russian exists "i am" :)
samelian	seems that doesn't exists in this form
Z_God	lol
Z_God	yep
Z_God	russian has no verb then
samelian	for example "i'm driver" can be translated from russian as "I driver"
Z_God	Strangelv: the amount of forms for to be in english is not that large
* Strangelv takes that to mean 'we need to create a few more'
Z_God	most languages also have separate forms in all tenses for all persons (1st, 2nd and 3rd) and also both singular & plural
samelian	"&#1071; &#1074;&#1086;&#1076;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1100;"
Z_God	so that's six forms per tense
Z_God	normally you have about 8 tenses
Z_God	at least latin has and most other european languages
Z_God	which gives 6*8 forms
Z_God	add coniuntive *2
Z_God	:)
samelian	in Romanian doesn't exists form for "far past" or "near past"
Z_God	it's also future
Z_God	I'm mistaken btw
Z_God	you only have 6 tenses if you have a separate coniunctive
Z_God	present, past, future
Z_God	and the perfective forms of those
Z_God	samelian: you know which dialect of Russian your family speaks?
samelian	russians told me that my accent seems Siberian
* Strangelv opens up a new page in his personal wiki for the non-terrestrial language and starts trying to figuer out tenses based on what he's thinking of from this conversation
samelian	but our native language is tainted by romanian and turkish languages
samelian	turkish because ocupation, a century ago
Z_God	Strangelv: if you really want to come up with a special language
* Strangelv has been told that teh family German dialect that didn't make it to him had aspects of a polish accent
Z_God	it's really hard if you only know languages from a single group
Z_God	and not have it strongly reflect that group
Strangelv	I know.  If I had time, Basque and some New Ginnean languages would be idal
Z_God	we're all still talking about european languages here
* Strangelv nods
Z_God	I never bothered to look further either :)
Z_God	but I know some languages put all properties of the sentence inside the verb
Z_God	even the plurality of the object
Strangelv	Indo-european.  We barbarians who charged in and wiped out the descendants of the Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals, or at least their languages -- all but one small pocket
samelian	haha
Strangelv	On these nightmare beasts we called Ekwoons or similar
Z_God	I wonder if they had a language
Z_God	it's likely they did not really have a language
Strangelv	Who didn't?
Z_God	neanderthals at least
Z_God	they could not easily produce languages with their mouths like us
Z_God	at least bone research showed their tongue was probably a bit higher
Strangelv	Their behavior was too complex to have not had language.  Their culture was itself wiped out -- and more effectively.  Just traces of their DNA, which means that not many of them left descendants.  Small enough that for awhile the dominant viewpoint was that they were utterly annihilated
Z_God	so they were probably not capable of expressing a lot of nuances with their voices
Strangelv	"It's possibel they might have had a different set of natural phonemes
Z_God	ok
Strangelv	But it seems clear that they were a race, not a separate species
Z_God	yes, I heard they mixed indeed
samelian	maybe they not liked chatting :)
Strangelv	We could probabyl get close enough to have shared a language
Z_God	if you could make babies together ;)
Strangelv	I for one would be all for reconstructing their genome and having a few -- as long as it's clear that they're human and have all the rights any human would have
Z_God	while I'm not against creating life
Z_God	I'm not sure about creating consious life
Strangelv	I am -- but with strict but simple and straightforward ethical considerations.
samelian	maybe we will be conquered by our too intelligent computers :)
Strangelv	Creating a neanderthal in the lab is no different from creating a caucasian, negroid, or mongoloid in the lab.  It's a human being.  Follow the existing rules for this.
Z_God	apart from the fact that you have more material for creating those human being
Z_God	beings*
Z_God	and it's done regularly outside of the lab as well
Strangelv	I also happen to agree with Jared DIamond that chimps, bonobos, and possibly gorrilas and maybe even orangutans belong in teh same genus we're in
Strangelv	We're too closely related
Strangelv	Which then comes to the not often seriously undertaken efford to integrate them into our society
Z_God	we can't even integrate all individuals of our species in our society
Strangelv	Adult male chimps have difficulty controlling themselves.  Might need some environmental adaptation to make it less difficult
Z_God	what about communication?
Strangelv	A lobotomy is the exact opposite of what's needed -- the frontal cortex is needed to help with self control and that needs to be execrised, stimulated, and maybe even supplemented somehow.  We need tihs for some people of our own species
Strangelv	Sign language and more serious efforts at improving their ability to understand spoken human languages.  Reading and writing should be a priority to learn how to teach them
Strangelv	If they have a placre in our society they're less likely to find themselves hunted or used as disposable lab specimins
Z_God	did nobody ever adopt a chimp or a bonobo in their family?
Strangelv	There have been a few  attempts, some that seemed to take things seriously, but the ones I'm aware of were decades ago before we knew what we know now
Z_God	ok
Strangelv	the late Nim Chomsky was basicalyl thrown away by one of the researchers despite the fact that he became fluent with sign language and longed to be living in a' house with a fridge and clothing.
Z_God	I'll look him up
Strangelv	Nim Chimpsky
Strangelv	I stand corrected
Z_God	google did that for me as well ;)
Strangelv	Part ofb the problem is that they're trying to be methodical.  I wonder just how damaged a human's upbringing would be if it was handled in the same way
Strangelv	Ther's also the loose structure of American Sign Language that makes it a poor choice if they're not going to be happy with what is spoken using it.
Z_God	I just read about it
Z_God	and also Washoe
Z_God	but what is someone takes are of a dolphin?
Z_God	if*
Z_God	I understand that dolphins are close to humans in brain capacity
Strangelv	Cetecians and probably elephants are good practice for xenolinguistics
Strangelv	Like elephants, they exceed ours
Z_God	they just are not really flexible like us
Strangelv	It's acutally very likely that we are not teh most intelligent species on this planet
Z_God	depends on the definition I guess though
Strangelv	The problem is that dolphin and human languages are rather alien
Z_God	I mean the definition of intelligence
Strangelv	We have more toys than the dolphins, -- and this is a difference whose importance can't be understated: we live a lot longer than theydo
Z_God	hmm yep of course
Strangelv	Put one in a tank, teach it a trick, put another in.  Let them converse.  The second one knows the trick.  How does this fail to be evidence of language?
Z_God	could be just imitation
Z_God	depends on the trick
Strangelv	What if the second one never saw the trick performed?  I must admit I don't know enough to confirm this
Z_God	then it would be proof I guess
Z_God	maybe one of the wildboyz would like to raise a monkey as their child
Strangelv	To the anthropocentrists, there is no proof.  ever.  I suspect with the right setup you could have them declare that several people with average language skills are'nt really intelligent life either.  Just need to keep them fromt realizing the subject is human
Z_God	you know the program?
Strangelv	I have'nt checked up on dolphin research for awhile and most of what I remember was murky
Z_God	I don't know what their definition of a language is
Strangelv	Combination of other distractions and brain fog.  Also not seeing non-dumbed-down evidence
Z_God	I mean the show wildboyz
Z_God	there is one scene in which they hang out in their hotel room
Strangelv	What is wildboyz+
Z_God	together with a monkey
Z_God	and this monkey is just messing around, but it really seems like he enjoys it
Z_God	it's a show where two guys do all kinds of crazy interactions with animals
Z_God	I can only find a crap quality version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wc2nQ6zHnw
Z_God	not sure if it's really responsible to allow a monkey to drink your beer though, but they are not afraid to spend time with a monkey it seems
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Strangelv	I'm not sure how far we can get with a small monkey.  That said, I've heard both cats and dogs do their best to speak.  Usually consisting of no concept of consonants and then wondering why I didn't understand what they just said
Strangelv	We probably need an alternate set of phonemes for our closest relatives and learn to understand them when they speak the same language we do with that different set
Strangelv	They have almost the same wiring we do, so it's a far easier problem than ceteceans and elephants.  Elephants may be easier than cetecians -- it's only been 20 yours or less since we even found out that they have a language
Z_God	it'll be hard though I guess
Z_God	especially for cats
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damiano_	heya fellas..
Z_God	to produce smth
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Aquarius_	that latest kernel thing.... ruined everything
Aquarius_	i couldn't logon to x anymore
Strangelv	Cats and dogs could probably stand ho have some genetic tinkering -- but keep in mind the ethical rules that they might get up into if they reach human levels of functionality -- and some of them will if they get sufficient language skills to successfully communicate wverbally with us
Strangelv	Which kernel?
Aquarius_	maybe because of other things as well, i dunno...
Aquarius_	latest for Squeeze
Aquarius_	....39
Strangelv	2.6.39?
Aquarius_	yep
Z_God	Strangelv: this is already an issue
Strangelv	Which isn't the latest
Aquarius_	that ruined everything... specifically something about xorg
Strangelv	do newer kernels help or do things stay broken?
Z_God	in many countries, people that are considered mentally challenged also lack rights
Aquarius_	they tend to mess up.
Aquarius_	from my own humble experience..
Z_God	Aquarius_: what did you do?
Aquarius_	as i said, just updated kernel as that Pikki guy said.
Z_God	why?
Aquarius_	dunno... just to make it new. Thought i'd get rid of that hal prob.
Aquarius_	by the way, it's still there, i've reinstalled everything.
Z_God	that's not related to your kernel
Z_God	better reinstall hal
Z_God	if the new kernel doesn't work, why not go back to the old one?
Aquarius_	did it many times before.
Aquarius_	listen, i've reinstalled everything already, and no new kernel around.
Aquarius_	so it doesn' matter anymore
Z_God	ok
Z_God	better stay with what works
Aquarius_	what im saying is that the problem still there.. i mean with "Safe removal" of USB...
Aquarius_	i mean... i can EJECT it, and it's fine. Works just like Safe removal
Z_God	but?
Aquarius_	but if i click on the latter it brings some weird error
Aquarius_	though.. other than the one i had while on Trinity
Aquarius_	now i'm on gnome
Aquarius_	let me show you
Z_God	this stuff was always a bit buggy
Aquarius_	ah
Aquarius_	now that's good to know
Aquarius_	you see.. i don't really care how to do it... whether to Eject or Safely remove.. i just don't wanna see no errors... that intimidates me..
Aquarius_	so if you're saying it's screwed up as it is... then it's fine with me
Z_God	as long as it's umouted, it's fine
Z_God	yes
Z_God	the systems are kinda screwed up
Aquarius_	tell me... could it possible happen because i installed Wine 1.3 from Mepis repository?
Z_God	it was bolted on for a "nice" user experience
Z_God	no
Aquarius_	ok. Good to know.
Z_God	unlikely at least
Aquarius_	one more thing... let me show you something.. it wouldn't matter if i had no probs here... but i just don't wanna do anything silly to mess up again... let me show you something..
Z_God	ok, but it'll have to be quick
Z_God	because I have to get up in 7 hours
Z_God	;)
Aquarius_	sure.. just a sec
Aquarius_	http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=62200
Aquarius_	here... there's one guy, he said this:
Aquarius_	First things first, kgarbutt, you don't need to install all these so-called dependencies. You only need to issue this command:
Aquarius_	CODE: SELECT ALL
Aquarius_	# apt-get build-dep wine
Z_God	it does the same
Aquarius_	and i did it not knowing what i was doing.. nothing happened, this thing just installed a bunch of files....
Z_God	it installs the dependencies
Aquarius_	it doesn't hurt?
Z_God	you need to build it
Z_God	build-dep -> build dependencies
Aquarius_	i see..
Aquarius_	well.. the thing is, i didn't use that.. i just added Mepis repository and installed Wine 1.3 from there. It works.
Aquarius_	but before i did it i used the command above..
Aquarius_	so all i wanna know, was that ok?
Strangelv	"Advantages tto using the Mepis repository?
Z_God	more packages should never hurt ;)
* Strangelv wonders if that's where he should be gethting it from instead of where he is.
Aquarius_	ok :)
Aquarius_	that's all i wanted to know :)
Aquarius_	thanks.
Z_God	Strangelv: debian apparently doesn't have wine 1.3 at all
Aquarius_	it has 1.0
Aquarius_	strangely ENOUGH.
Strangelv	Okay, Debian.  I forgot that Mepis changed back to Debian
Strangelv	Yike!
Strangelv	Wait, is this stable, wheezy, or Sid?
Aquarius_	stable
Strangelv	Okay, I'm not surprised
Strangelv	This is why I fgound stable to be unusable for my needs
Aquarius_	because of wine?
Strangelv	no, because of very old packages that were missing features that I needed
Aquarius_	understandable.
Strangelv	...or the complete absense of what I was needing
Strangelv	because it was more recent than the freeze on stable
Z_God	debian stable is about stability
Z_God	not really about features
Aquarius_	for me it's quite enough. You just have to fiddle around and find ways to get the same stuff as in Wheezy or Ubuntu... perhaps it's not all anyway. But for me it's just about enough.
Strangelv	If I were going to run a serious server Debian Stabel would be on my short list of distros to consider
Z_God	that's what I use on servers yep
Z_God	otherwise it'd be ubuntu lts I guess
Aquarius_	there's one thing.... you have TO KNOW what you're doing.. otherwise you'll know the power of re-installation.
Strangelv	Not on a desktop.  Testing if I could find the packages I needed on testing
Z_God	I already use ubuntu lts on my desktops
Strangelv	In 2003-2004 I couldn't.  everytnhing I needed was compiled against Sid
Strangelv	I'm almost running LTS, albeit not by intent
Z_God	I was using suse then :)
Aquarius_	why would someone use Sid or testing?.. Tell me this..
Strangelv	NEwer packages and almost as stable as anything else available at the time.
Aquarius_	i mean common.. do i really need errors and issues every now and then or expecting some shit to happen (though stable ain't much brighter sometimes)
Strangelv	...but when Sarge finally got released unstable became genuinely unstable
Z_God	if you know how to fix things
Z_God	that's np
Aquarius_	ah..
Strangelv	I must admit with unstabe/l I learned how to use gtk -i --force-all
Z_God	I don't feel like though, so I don't ;)
Strangelv	largely because of the XFree86 in name only they were working
Strangelv	I've been far happier with Kubuntu -- at least until KDE 4 came out
Aquarius_	KDE4 is crap... world wide proclaimed crap.
Z_God	I always used kubuntu with kde3
Strangelv	...and the Automake problem and the time needed to resolve it broke my intention of keeping this machine up to date
Strangelv	I tried using it for less than 48 hours.  I've ranted enough in here about just how much I hated the experience
Z_God	I used it for 1-2 months
Strangelv	There's a reason I'm in here, after all...
Z_God	but I liked kde3 more
Z_God	I'm a kde addict though
Z_God	I can't use anything else
Strangelv	Without TDE or KDE 3 I would not have a clear path.  KDE 4 fails big time.  For me anyway.  YMMV
Z_God	yes, I have the same, although I understand KDE 4.7 is ok
Z_God	I really enjoyed KDE 1.0 though
Z_God	and there was similar disappointment with 2.0
Strangelv	I can't trust myself hto remain levelheaded around it.  At a minimum I'd run the risk of making Gaesslin look objective by comparison
Z_God	about performance
Z_God	but that's all gone as well now
Z_God	so maybe it's indeed a matter of tiem
Z_God	time*
Aquarius_	http://89.28.122.14:8080/Screenshot.png
Aquarius_	here's what i get.
Aquarius_	actually, and the previous message appears only when i click again without waiting...
Aquarius_	that's why it says "pending"
Aquarius_	anyone to look?
Z_God	look in debians bugtracker ;)
Aquarius_	ok :)
Z_God	report the bug if you can't find it
Z_God	I'm off now
Z_God	good night (day) all!
Aquarius_	night night
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Piki	has anybody successfully configured kmail for a gpg signing key? my kmail displays the key when i go to select it, but it has a question mark next to it, and the OK button is greyed out. gpg-agent is running and set to use pinentry-qt and i have 'use-agent' set in gpg.conf. kgpg is also running, i used kgpg to generage my key
MutantTurkey	o/
Aquarius_	Piki, i see that thing keeps you awake
Piki	Aquarius_: no, just a nice conversation with my g/f :-) i don't usually go to bed until a bit later
Aquarius_	i see.
Aquarius_	by the way...
Aquarius_	i installed that new kernel of yours...
Aquarius_	now i'm on freshly installed Debian if you know what i mean.
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MutantTurkey	darrell is a boss
MutantTurkey	he already did a website audit!
Piki	i already did a tax audit, i'm paying too much! lol
Aquarius_	Piki, USB prob persists by the way.
MutantTurkey	:P
Aquarius_	i have to EJECT it, not to Remove Safely, which doesn't really work.
Aquarius_	works the same, but... not meant to be so.
Piki	Eject?
Aquarius_	yep. Eject.
Aquarius_	well.. i'm on Gnome
Aquarius_	as i said.. after your new kernel i had to reinstall everything. After that i couldn't logon to X, there was some prob with xorg and i couldn't solve it.
Piki	if you just reinstalled individual packages instead of reformatting and reinstalling debian, that might cause a few problems, i think you said you had sid and a few other repos included in sources.list?
Aquarius_	yeah... that's true.
Aquarius_	but i think i cleaned it up with that website of yours..
Aquarius_	but that didn't matter..
Piki	the website isn't mine, i just found it in google and used it for my sources.list :-)
Piki	and removing the repos doesn't remove the packages
Aquarius_	well.. i mean you gave it to me..
Aquarius_	but it's a good one though.
Piki	your best bet is using either aptitude (command line) or synaptic (graphical) to search for and remove packages from the repos you removed
Piki	and replace them with the packages in the repos that you're using now
Piki	either that, or backup your data, reinstall debian, and reinstall the packages you need
Aquarius_	thanks man. I'll just stick with 2.6.32. It serves me well.
Piki	whichever you'd find easier
Aquarius_	i'd install it only if that'd fix the usb prob :)
Piki	it might fix it, no garantee though
Aquarius_	well yeah, that's the thing.. issue is not worth a risk in my case.
Piki	i never use the Safely Remove option, i normally handle that in a terminal, i normally keep one open all the time ;-)
Aquarius_	you mean you purge stuff?
Piki	actually, i think an update from debian backports that was added today or yesterday broke my hal, but i only need it for my battery, which needs replacing anyway, so i don't really care right now
Piki	Aquarius_: i was referring to my flash drives
Aquarius_	ah....
Aquarius_	dammit
Piki	but for packages, if you know you'll never use them again, purging is good
Aquarius_	well i can do it out of gnome now, but only one thing, "Safely Remove" doesn't work. First it gets delayed and then brings an error message. But Eject works always, and the same way.
Piki	or if you're downgrading a packages to one that you know won't break your system, but you're afraid the config files from the newer version might break the older version
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Piki	i always thought gnome used hal
Piki	unless they changed it recently
Piki	i haven't used gnome in awhile, it's ok, but i felt too constained with the configuration options available
MutantTurkey	nobody uses hal anymore
Piki	kde4
Piki	unless they changed, but i know earlier this year they used it
Piki	personally i never really liked hal, i know the head dev for Ark said he made a replacement for it and that he got it working (should have mentioned it during the meeting), but he had to include hal in the iso from january because he was trouble hacking kde4 to use his system
Piki	anyways, back on subject... any kmail users at all? perhaps willing to at least test to see if it's just my system that's causing the gpg problem?
Piki	:-P
MutantTurkey	did anyone read  the TDE HCI model pad?
Piki	no, what's that?
MutantTurkey	Tim has been documenting his ideas regarding computer/user interaction
MutantTurkey	http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/28
Piki	apparently i need an account to view one... might as well request one, since i'll eventually need it
gcsimon	Piki: trouble with kmail and gpg?
Piki	gcsimon: yes, it detects my gpg key, but won't let me select it
gcsimon	Piki: i use gpg and kmail (within of kontact), to sign end encrypt emails, no troubles here.
Piki	gcsimon: hmm... any special setup needed? e.g. anything other than gpg-agent running as a daemon?
gcsimon	Piki: mostly out-of-the-box setup (recent TDE). didn't do anything special, except generating the keys and importing them into gpg, as well as givinge them "full trust" (using kgpg)
Piki	i tried generating the keys using 'gpg --keygen', then when that didn't work, generating them in kgpg
Piki	unless they need importing into gpg when using gpg directly to generate them, that shouldn't be the problem
Piki	and they already have full trust
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gcsimon	Piki: apperently i have no gpg-daemon running. i generated the keys using gpg on the console, i don't remember how i imported them (kgpg or console) but i used kgpg to give them "full trust"
gcsimon	Piki: but technically all ways should be identical
Aquarius_	listen.. what is safe upgrade and non-safe upgrade?
Aquarius_	"which does not remove old packages or install new ones..."
Piki	gcsimon: everything i read says i should have "gpg-agent --daemon" running
gcsimon	Piki: why did generating the keys using gpg not work?
Aquarius_	in other words... which is better for me?
gcsimon	Aquarius_: no idea, but would be good to know - ubuntu system?
Aquarius_	Debian.
Aquarius_	i just don't get it.. how can it be upgraded if no packages removed or installed?
Piki	gcsimon: dunno, kmail just won't accept my keys. it displays a question mark, and the OK button is grayed out
gcsimon	Aquarius_: strange indeed
Aquarius_	well, it's Debian's updates. Always been like this.
Aquarius_	and i could never understand it :)
gcsimon	Piki: could it be, that you used a key wich is incompatible with the selected encoding? S/MIME, inline, etc?
Piki	Aquarius_: are you talking system updates? if you're doing "apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade" on the command line or clicking Refresh in synaptic the the upgrade button, it should mark all upgrade
Piki	if not, there's nothing to upgrade
Aquarius_	no no... it's not that.
Aquarius_	i've got updates notifications.
Aquarius_	when i updated the repository list.
Piki	gcsimon: how would i know it's incompatible?
Aquarius_	and it suggests that i may use safe-upgrade (with no files installed/removed) or.. non-safe i guess.
Aquarius_	let me just show you..
gcsimon	Piki: no idea, just a possibility. o don't know if keys can be incompatible with specific endcodings.
Aquarius_	http://89.28.122.14:8080/Screenshot.png
Piki	gcsimon: are you talking about the different keys it shows when i run "gpg --gen-key"?
gcsimon	Piki: my crypto backends show "GpgME" which includes "OpenPGP (gpg)" and "S/MIME (gpgsm)"
Aquarius_	check the screen please.
gcsimon	Piki: yes exactly
Piki	Aquarius_: hmm, don't recognize the package manager
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 625 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=625 normal, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, KDM is hard-coded to use /tmp rather than $TMP or $TMPDIR
gcsimon	Aquarius_: i read the message this way: he won't install something new, and he won't remove something, but he will upgrade stuff (without changing other packages)
Piki	gcsimon: I choose the first option, "RSA and RSA (default)", though it does have an option that says "RSA (sign only)". i suppose i may as well try that one, though i thought the one i was choosing including that
gcsimon	Piki: i think, i chose that one too.
Aquarius_	hm
Aquarius_	ok
Aquarius_	good point
Piki	hmm, choosing the RSA Sign Only didn't help
gcsimon	Aquarius_: this prevents the package manager, to choose updates, that would affect more than the to-be-upgraded package alone
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Aquarius_	so what do i do?
gcsimon	Aquarius_: but i'm new to apt... could be completly wrong
gcsimon	Aquarius_: why not just let him upgrade everything?
Piki	i normally use either apt-get or synaptic, neither display that message
Piki	but i'd interpret the message the same as gcsimon, that it'll only upgrade already installed packages without installing or removing anything
Aquarius_	gcsimon, why not let him? I let him either way! No matter what i push... what do i press, tell me?
Aquarius_	yes or no?
Piki	both apt-get and synaptic will tell you all the upgrades, new packages, and removals, and ask you to confirm before actually doing it
Aquarius_	ok
Aquarius_	so i push yes? or no? :)
gcsimon	Aquarius_: when i choose to update, he displays a list, which shows what he is going to do. sometimes he install new packages when i just requested updates. i think is safe to say, "upgrade all"
Aquarius_	ok
gcsimon	Aquarius_: push "no" ;-)
Aquarius_	ok
gcsimon	Aquarius_: does your package manager display a "summary" of changes?
Aquarius_	probably. I'll take a look. Right now installing.
Aquarius_	http://89.28.122.14:8080/Screenshot-1.png
Aquarius_	i couldn't copy all the stuff. Doesn't work for that window.
gcsimon	Piki: which distribution are you using? i remember that suse 11.1 had troubles with 4096 bit keys, becaus ethe gpg versionw as to old.
Piki	don't be pasting a lot of lines directly to the channel, that's what pastebin is for :-)
Aquarius_	i know
Aquarius_	that's not what i meant
Piki	gcsimon: Debian Squeeze with the backports repo enabled
Aquarius_	i mean i couldn't COPY it from the window, not right down here
Piki	dunno whether my gpg comes from official or backports
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Piki	gcsimon: do you know what gpg version is needed? (or at least what version opensuse is using, so i know  to make sure i'm newer than that)
gcsimon	i have "gpg (GnuPG) 1.4.10", that seems to work fine
Piki	hmm, so do i
gcsimon	Piki: don't know which version suse 11.1 used. i could find out though... i still have an opensuse 11.1 VM
Piki	gcsimon: i'm using gpg 1.4.10, if that version works for you, that probably isn't the problem
Piki	unless there was a packaging issue with the debian package
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gcsimon	other question: before kubuntu/TDE i used opensuse 11.4. when i pressed CTRL+LEFT-ARROW in "konsole", it would move the cursor until the next white-space character. now on TDE it doesn't work anymore. instead it displays ";5C" or ";5D".
gcsimon	i understand that this is like the keycode for the keys i pressed, but how do i setup konsole (or X-org?) to interpret these keycodes correctly?
Piki	gcsimon: didn't know about that, i just tried it on my konsole, seems to work for me
Piki	i'm on TDE 3.5.13 on debian squeeze, unless it's to do with the OS selected in the kpersonalizer wizard when you first launch TDE, it should work
gcsimon	seems it has to do something with the selected keyboard in konsole. only XTerm (XFree 4.xxxx) show the keycodes, all other just don't show anything (but don't work either)
gcsimon	i didn't use kpersonalizer, i transfered my old kde3 settings to trinity (just renamed the folder)
Piki	did you run kpersonalizer in kde3? if so, do you remember which OS you selected at the start?
Piki	i'm not familiar with changing the key bindings, i just choose the settings in the kcontrol keyboard settings that work best for me, and kpersonalizer seems to choose the correct one when i choose the OS
gcsimon	i don't think that i ever ran kpersonalizer, but if i did i cannot remeber anymore (long long ago).
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Piki	some distros disable it by default
gcsimon	it's not ap problem with the keyboard layout. here in konversation (my ICQ client), CTRL+LEFT and CTRL+RIGHT work as expected
gcsimon	ICQ=IRC
gcsimon	also in kate, or other TDE apps, only in konsole it doesn't work
Piki	might just be a problem in your konsole
Piki	mitght be worth removing the config files for konsole to see if that helps
gcsimon	yeah, think so too. i will check what these "keyboard" option does in konsole. maybe it's just a small change to some layout file
Piki	gcsimon: and i hope you're using a F\OSS ICQ client ;-)
gcsimon	kopete actually, and konversation for IRC
gcsimon	i forced ubuntu before setup to "OSS only"
gcsimon	but it is very hard to find stuff like a free flash-player.... ;-(
Piki	all i need is 100% working flash and java replacements to go completely F\OSS
gcsimon	like me
Piki	mplayer seems to play youtube videos that i've downloaded, problem is setting it up as my flash plugin
Piki	if i can do that, then i'm left with searching for a java replacement
gcsimon	i'm trying gnash. it loads correctly and looks like the original flash-plugin from adobe, but it has some codec-troubles on youtube
gcsimon	but i think this can be resolved
Piki	once that's done, all i need is for khtml to be replaced so i can go full Qt and ditch gtk (no real problem with gtk, i just want one or the otherm, not both, and since tde uses qt, that'd be where i'd go)
gcsimon	ah, yes. khtml.... i love konqueror. but yome sites just won't work anymore with the old khtml
Piki	i tried gnash, seems to identify correctly, but can never load any videos
gcsimon	khtml_google_chrome :P
* Piki wanders if webkit-qt can be backported for use with tqt
Piki	if i knew how to program in qt, i could probably attempt it
gcsimon	same, and i would need more time. programming with Qt itself seems fairly simple. but i'm in time preassure with my studies (diploma thesis)
Aquarius_	does anybody know why skype just closes at startup?..
Aquarius_	i know only one thing... when PulseAudio is there, or particular audio settings made it doesn't happen. However, if i instantly make a call it fixes it till the very next startup.
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Aquarius_	i mean, it never happens while in a call.
Piki	never used skype, proprietary protocol, i try to avoid proprietary as much as possible
Aquarius_	well i need it. That's the thing. That's what most people say, but it doesn't help me.
Aquarius_	there's one more nasty thing...... when the call is ended from the other side skype closes too.
Aquarius_	damn..
gcsimon	Aquarius_: skype for linux is completly broken. my brother uses it. he has this problem sometimes too. i usually just delete all skype-settings and start from scratch. not a good solution, but works.
Aquarius_	you mean his skype shuts off too?..
Piki	Aquarius_: i think that sources.list generator website has a skype option, did you try that?
gcsimon	yeah. his setup uses pulseaudio too. and sometimes (i don know, ehy or when), it won't load.
Aquarius_	hm.
Aquarius_	never happened to me.
Aquarius_	well, with Pulse it NEVER crashes. I mean.. i've tried it.. PA was shit, BUT... skype never closed up all of a sudden.
Aquarius_	definitely audio issues.
gcsimon	btw. skype is working on a solution which make sit possible to use regular VoIP software (or hardware IP-phones) with skype. like a skype-VoIP-bridge
gcsimon	since asterisk-skype has been discontinued
gcsimon	onces that happens, skype-support for linux will improve *much*
Piki	they should just open up their code and have REAL coders fix it
gcsimon	:D
gcsimon	i even can't understand why peope use skype insted of regular VoIP.... i mean just because of video-support?
gcsimon	there are free VoIP-servers too. and VoIP is standardised
Piki	if people wnat that so bad, they can demand it from regular voip, or use instant messaging
Piki	i know kopete support video chat
gcsimon	you can run even your own VoIP-server (inclusing gateway to other medias). asterisk (FREE OSS) can do that for you.
gcsimon	uh. never got kopete video-chat working. and it seems incompatible with the regular ICQ video support
Piki	it recognized my webcam awhile back, never did video chat though
Piki	gcsimon: perhaps you can add a bug tracker request to get video chat in icq working in kopete?
Piki	dunno how long it will take, would probably be low priority until we get all the main issues sorted, but at least it would draw attention to the video chat issue
gcsimon	i have no webcam anymore. and to be honest, i wouldn't use it. i mean, if it would already work, and i just had to click "enable video-chat", maybe i would consider using it (and buy a new webcam for it). but i really don't want to burden the TDE dev's. i think there are bigger problems with TDE than video-chat for kopete ;-P
Aquarius_	is there any CD/DVD burner that does verification after burning?
Aquarius_	i have only Brasero here
Piki	k3b
gcsimon	yes, k3b
Aquarius_	thanks
Piki	anybody who uses kde/tde will almost certainly recommend k3b
gcsimon	indeed, it's very good
Piki	it's the best
gcsimon	has completly replaced "nero" since i made the switch to linux
Aquarius_	nice to know.
Piki	even some non-kde users use k3b, even if they don't use anything else from kde
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Piki	hmm, apparently kopete doesn't recognize my webcam anymore, but it is detected by the v4l webcam apps i have installed
Piki	not that i really care, i don't use kopete for video messaging, just seems odd
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Piki	apparently kopete has an issue with udev setting up a v4l link in /dev/v4l, got it fixed :-)
Piki	apparently have to remove the udev rule that creates the link, remove the link it creates, then restart udev and kopete
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gcsimon	isn't v4l outdated? i remember using something called v4l2....
Piki	dunno
Piki	i never actually used v4l except for my webcam, and i haven't used my webcam since sometime in the first half of this year. i didn't even set it up, i just installed a program called cheese
Piki	for taking some pics
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gcsimon	what do you think, will TDE run well on an 800mhz cpu? i know this question cannot be answered perfectly, just trying to get some opinions before i try and find out
gcsimon	the machine will have to run amarok, kopete, kontact, k3b, vlc... etc. the full package of everything TDE has to offer (memory won't be a problem, 4GB DDR2-800 installed)
Piki	it should work if you have enough ram
gcsimon	good
Piki	gcsimon: should work, if you don't have everything running at once :-)
Piki	the ram could handle all that at once, not sure about the cpu
Piki	you'd probably be able to get kopete, music or video, kontact, and web browser going, perhaps even an office app
gcsimon	yeah :D, the cpu is a low-power via-c7 x86 clone. no 64bit extensions. the system will boot via nfs-root
Piki	but you'd probably not be able to have more than one multimedia app at a time, but i'm sure it's doable, especially since a 765mhz cpu with 128MB RAM could run WinXP (albeit slow
Piki	)
gcsimon	want to deploy 3-4 of them. currently i use 3 of them, but only as X-terminal to a powerful server, which runs TDE in turn. performance is poor, because of the network lantency
Piki	exit
Piki	oops
Piki	wrong window
gcsimon	yeah, thats what i used as refernence. windows xp started out on 600mhz computers, with much less memory
gcsimon	haha. happes to me too, all the time in ICQ. ^
gcsimon	i do it even half-intentionally, when i want to close the chat-window :P
Piki	actually getting ready to shut down, rarely exit my konsole when i have my computer running :-P
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Piki	it's past midnight where i'm at, rarely up past 23:00 (11:00PM) here
gcsimon	it's 6:00 AM at my place :D
Piki	i'm rarely up that early ;-)
gcsimon	:D
Piki	on a good night's rest, i'm usually up around 8AM, but a good night's rest is rare for me, usually only semi-good
Piki	especially with the cat up all night playing with his toys or trying to make it difficult for me to roll over and get comfortable :-P
Piki	he refuses to leave my room, so i gotta deal with him
gcsimon	ah. cats yes... they have a way of driving you out of your bed, just to have it comfortable for themself.
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gcsimon	i own *one*, but have to live with two to three
gcsimon	i have a cat door, and my cat refuses to defend her territory
Piki	i have three, one refuses to leave my room, the other two are scared of him, so the refuse to come in my room, even when i want them to
gcsimon	cats... :D
gcsimon	well, i will try to get TDE running on my low-power machine now. do i will be offline for a while.
gcsimon	bye all
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Aquarius_	is there any good audio format converting proggie?
Aquarius_	like... mp3 to wav... and bitrates change? That's all i need.
Piki	i normally use soundkonverter, dunno if it supports wav, but it does support FLAC (more featured open source replacement for wav), mp3, and ogg vorbis
Piki	it should do bitrate changing, and replaygain
Piki	it does wav, just checked
Piki	and a bunch more
Piki	and bitrate changing
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Aquarius_	i've installed Trinity k3b on gnome. I like its looks more.
Piki	gtg, bye
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 626 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=626 normal, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Konversation Sym Links Incorrect
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 627 filed by humanreadable@yahoo.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=627 normal, P1, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Kspell Sym Link Incorrect
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duindain	is there any fixes for the installer trying to remove sudo during installation on ubuntu oneric?
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 628 filed by f.couperin@online.fr.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=628 major, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Qt3 information about licensing is confusing
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rzs19	hello
duindain	is there any fixes for the installer trying to remove sudo during installation on ubuntu oneric?
jumpship	The sudo pkg is replaced with a sudo-trinity pkg, i'll see if I can find the explaination if you want
duindain	doesnt that break all of the ideas behind ubuntu?
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duindain	does anyone know how to start trinity for a vnc session?
duindain	ie for fluxbox is fluxbox &
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rzs19	you can share your desktop with Krfb, or use xvnc
duindain	im using x11vnc but i dont know what session to start
duindain	for trinity
duindain	does startkde work?
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rzs19	you could try:
rzs19	echo "startkde" > ~/.vnc/xstartup
rzs19	maybe xrdp(http://www.xrdp.org/) is alsor for you, there you could have sesman?
duindain	that command wiped my xstartup file and replaced it with nothing ;(
duindain	no content
rzs19	blah@trinity:~$ echo "startkde" > ~/.vnc/xstartup
rzs19	blah@trinity:~$ cat ~/.vnc/xstartupstartkde
duindain	sorry i was slightly wrong it has startkde in the file
duindain	nothing else
duindain	2nd command No such file or directory
rzs19	do you have a .vnc dir in your home directory?
duindain	well the first command wouldnt have worked if i didnt
duindain	and my mentioning it deleting my original xstartup file wouldnt make much sense either
duindain	think i found the problem
duindain	at least one of them
duindain	startkde isnt installed
rzs19	oh you have a xstartup file? :=
rzs19	okay becouse here i have a startkde file
duindain	i do
rzs19	blah@trinity:~$ whereis startkdestartkde: /opt/trinity/bin/startkde
rzs19	:)
duindain	it was customised for about 4-5 different sessions too ;(
rzs19	hm, no backup?
duindain	ok its working now
duindain	changing the xstartup file to contain /opt/trinity/bin/startkde
duindain	works fine
duindain	thanks for yhour help
rzs19	hmm you need to set a absolute path?
duindain	apparently
rzs19	blah@trinity:~$ echo $PATH/opt/trinity/bin:/opt/trinity/games:/home/richi/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/local/games:/usr/games
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rzs19	maybe your PATH Variable is not set correctly?
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duindain	ill take a look at path stuff tomorrow i just echoed it and it looks like trinity stuff isnt in it
duindain	gotta sleep ;)
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oogabooga	anyone have abroken or toy or model CPU for sale?
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MutantTurkey	samelian: I am missing my libkonq cmake module. do you know how I can regenerate it?
MutantTurkey	opt/trinity/share/cmake/libkonq.cmake doesnt exist
samelian	MutantTurkey: you should reinstall kdelibs, i guess
MutantTurkey	samelian: I have the source, can I manually regenerate it?
samelian	not exactly, is generating at install stage
MutantTurkey	okay
samelian	you can compile just libkonq
samelian	and then make install DESTDIR=/tmp
MutantTurkey	right
MutantTurkey	got it
MutantTurkey	thanks :)
samelian	np
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rzs19	hello MutantTurkey
MutantTurkey	hey rzs19
* Strangelv is finally able to log into Etherpad, although he's had a major distraction from everything give him a phone call about half an hour ago
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: good
MutantTurkey	j/w is that handled manually?
MutantTurkey	I cant remmber and if someone asks I should know the answer...
Strangelv	I tried to log in andi nstead of saying it didn'tn know me it said I entered the mwrong password -- so I requested a password reset
Strangelv	Not the optimal activity flow, but I was able to get in
Strangelv	I don't know what the delay was.  It's possibel I gfot an email that I just can't find
Strangelv	The one with the password reseaet was trivial to find, though
* Strangelv adds the prototype ad at the bottom of http://trinity.etherpad.trinitydesktop.org/23
Strangelv	"Wel,l a link to it
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jumpship	I didn't know this was a den of hate, and here I was thinking you are a good group of people, you tricked me
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MutantTurkey	?
MutantTurkey	jumpship: asegio
MutantTurkey	's post?
jumpship	Yeah, I was a little shocked by that
rzs19	jumpship: what do you mean?
MutantTurkey	Well, think about his side?
MutantTurkey	it is difficult for us to express our views, because we dont want to bash kde4
MutantTurkey	rzs19: did you see the post?
rzs19	what post?
rzs19	i'Am confussed
jumpship	On a brighter note, did ya see Andrea Cascio's mail yet?
MutantTurkey	Yes just saw it
MutantTurkey	We need to let Xu_R respond
jumpship	rzs19: It was on the mailing list
rzs19	can anyone enlight my?
rzs19	clar up?
rzs19	+e
rzs19	what post?
rzs19	okay
rzs19	link?
MutantTurkey	rzs19: do you subscribe to the ml?
rzs19	i should :)
rzs19	but is there an archive link?
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jumpship	I don't know how much attention to give it, but I did wanna say I never got the impression that asegio wrote about.
MutantTurkey	jumpship: He is a good person, he is a supporter of what we do
MutantTurkey	I want to keep him on board
MutantTurkey	he is our key to the gates of KDE users hearts.
jumpship	I hope I don't sound like I'm agianst him
jumpship	My intention was to encourage, not to attack
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rzs19	hmm, i'am confused... no clue what you are all talkin about
jumpship	I guess Trinity has a reputation in the KDE4 community as a "den of hate"
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jumpship	http://trinity-devel.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::3670
jumpship	I was just confused by that, because I didn't get that impression, many people using Trinity are going to be people unhappy with KDE4, but I didn't feel there was real hate
Strangelv	Depends on how recently I've had someone like Graesslin militantly try to cram something down my throat
jumpship	Even during that episode, I seen a lot of defence of Trinity, I'm trying to remember if there was any attacking, I guess I coulda just not noticed, it wouldn't have affected me as much as a KDE4 dev, so maybe thats it
rzs19	well... martin says that just kicker und kdesktop are missing, i think other application have changed, so there is much more difference between kde4 and tde. not "we are more stable"
rzs19	the ui has changed.
rzs19	like xfce is other than gnome, or gnome2 is other than gnome3, nothing more.
Strangelv	Aside from one or two familiar details DE 4 is something completely different.  This will appeal to some people.  I just wished they'de come up with a different name for their completely different product
rzs19	things have changed, some like the new one, others like the old one.
jumpship	I don't really see KDE4 as a "competitor" to Trinity, they're such different
Strangelv	xfce seems closer in many ways to Gnome 2 than we are to KDE 4
rzs19	i think, ppl like martin doesnt used kde 3.5
jumpship	Strangelv: agree
rzs19	talkin about things, they dont know...
Strangelv	He seems to have forgotten it?  Or it wasnt what he actualyl wanted so he was very happy to leave it all behind?
Strangelv	Aside from some tweaks that need to be made, TDE and also KDE 3 are very close to optimal
Strangelv	"...for me, that is
rzs19	someone love awesome, some other likes jwm, others use amiwm. there is for everyone a desktop/wm. we need that diversity and not one that can maybe all...
rzs19	and if someone will fork KDE 1.0 why not?
jumpship	Same here, I feel at home on my system, I don't get the same feeling with KDE4, but is that hate? If it wern't for Trinity, I prob would hate KDE4, cause I'd have to use it, the other choices are even further from what I want
rzs19	its the same with wayland and xorg...
Strangelv	I wasn't able to get XF86 to run consistently during teh 1.0 era so I hardly know anything about it.  I was attempting to dual boot despite the facht that it was a complete non-starter for me as I was running my system 24/7 and it only went down when it crashed, usually with me scrambrlisg to get back up and get back to work ASAP
rzs19	my parents use kde4 and they like kde4. i use tde and i like it :)
Strangelv	What did they use before KDE 4?
rzs19	windows? ^^°
jumpship	Windows, now that I DO hate :)
Strangelv	It also, I suppose, depends on your user habits.  If you fit the use profile that KDE 4 is based on why wouldn't you be happy?
rzs19	i'am happy that they like kde4
* Strangelv very juch doesn't fit that profile. Thus the idea of showing off TDE's configurability
rzs19	its easier to support it(for me), then windows.
rzs19	here at work most use a linux distribution, but everyone uses a other one and a other desktop environment, or window manager.
rzs19	and *
rzs19	what every, you know what i mean. i like diversity :)
rzs19	i don't want one environment. i want to choice :)
jumpship	Strangelv: You hit the nail on the head, I tried to migrate, I couldn't make it work for me, I would have had to make big changes in my use because I couldn't make the changes to KDE4, thats not to say I wouldn't put KDE4 on someone else's machine, same for gnome or xfce, depending on how they use their machine
rzs19	ppl like mr. grässlin makes me a little bit angry and maybe it is posetiv thaht i don't have a cellar(you know i'am from austria) ;)
rzs19	i hope that everone understand my (strange?) humor...
jumpship	I didn't read his article, I guess I could have used a translation, but I didn't bother
Strangelv	I ran into treasure troves of pathologically patronizing posts about anyone who wanted to keep using 3.5.  That perhaps even more than KDE 4 itself is what set me off enough that I'm still angry about it years later
jumpship	That might be a big part of the problem, Trinity is kinda showing they might have been wrong
Strangelv	The direction I see thatwe should shoot for in the long run is to increase customizability
Strangelv	Something that came up in here a few days ago was the prospect of being able to dynamicalyl adjust the size of user widgets
Strangelv	We perhaps shouldn't even try to be the optimal solution for users who want a basic, simple experience, as that's what everyone else seems to be throwing away years of design work to pursue.  Not everyone wants this.
Strangelv	I certianly don't.
jumpship	widgets as in kicker plugins, or buttons, checkboxes, etc?
Strangelv	I'm the complained about user or developer who never met a control I didn't like
Strangelv	"yes
Strangelv	buttons, scroll bars, radio buttons checkboxes progress meters
Strangelv	Someone mentioned that he didn't like the one I was using because it was too large for his tastes
jumpship	isn't that already possible to some extent?
jumpship	themes
Strangelv	"if I were going to make a size adjust ment I'd want to make things a little larger -- more than a little with a dispaly with a higher screen resolution
Strangelv	"Also, just how much moer control could we be giving users over their window decorations and widget style?
jumpship	I've never looked into the theme engine, I wonder how much room for adjustment there is
Strangelv	I don't know how it works and I need to
jumpship	It seems it requires coding in c++ (at least kwin themes), it would be nice if it themes were user creatable, but I imagine that would reduce functionality
Strangelv	Could we create a special user-customizable one?
jumpship	I don't see why not, but I'm a no coder
Strangelv	"have a paisley toolbar and rally think border,s razor thin scrollbars and a poorly tiling plaid background if that's what the user wants. 8)
Strangelv	"not toolbar.  I can't think of the correct term.  Complication is we presently have things separated between 'style' and 'decorations' -- we might be able to thinsk of a better way to arrange things.
jumpship	oh wait, that might alreay exist, trying to find out if what I'm reading is about kde3
Strangelv	At a user interface level we're still pretty indistinguishable from KDE 3.  It's under the hood where some things have become unrecognizable
jumpship	I mean this page I'm reading, I can't seem to find any official documentation
Strangelv	The orliginal and perhays no longer main desire to migrate to Qt4, descarding Automake after it broke compatibility one time too many during an incrimental revision, trying to avoid collisions with KDE 4... what other things have been our driving force?  Besides the usual flow of keeping up with changes in packages we depend on?
jumpship	I'd guess customizability, but you'd have a better handle on the project than I would, I'm just a bystander yet
jumpship	anyway, I found this mention of Pixmap themes for kwin
Strangelv	I'm not one of the coders.  I've spent most of my time attempting to wokr on marketing and branding
Strangelv	Wel,l that and getting hopelessyl sidetracked by my other already too numerous commitments
Strangelv	I never would have normlly gotten involved with this sort of thing.  KDE 4 jeopardized almost everything I do, however
Strangelv	Especially wvhen I read about how militant some of the developers were at doing everything short of forcing users at gunpoint ot switch over
jumpship	Same here, I've never been this interested in any software project before, I just wish I could code
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Strangelv	jumpship: what can you think of that you might be able to offer?  Graphics?  help text? testing? other? not sure?
Strangelv	That needs to be a FAQ section -- 'how can I help?'
jumpship	I just discovered something I didn't know was possible, trinity supports IceWM pixmap themes
jumpship	I don't know what I could do to help, I've been reading a lot to maybe try some coding, but it's been slow going
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Strangelv	Maybe you can do research. 8)
Strangelv	I didn't know our themes were compatible with iceWM
Strangelv	That was the default that came with Libranet, which is how i ended up running KDE 2 and 3 under GDM instead of KDM
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Strangelv	Do you have an Etherpad account?
jumpship	not yet, but I can get at most of the pads as long as I have a link to the pad, I can't seem to get a list
Strangelv	I'm also having trouble with that.  I was thinking mostly in terms of a place for you to type up what you find out
Strangelv	"Where others can see
Strangelv	I got an account by signing up and waiting a day, signing in and being told I
Strangelv	entered the wrong passworkd, then requesting an email to change my password.
Strangelv	Any cat who considers getting hit by the pantry dor to be part of the procedure for getting fed would approve. 8)
jumpship	darn, gotta go, bbl
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rzs19	so, i go, see you all later :)
rzs19	and - DAMN IMPORTAT - i want TDE merchandise! I need a new T-Shirt and a new Keyring(or how it will be called in english - i hope you know what i want)
rzs19	mean*
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* Strangelv hmms
Strangelv	Who wants to set up the CafePress site?  Anyone who's set one up before?
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 629 filed by f.couperin@online.fr.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=629 enhancement, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, libjpeg dependency on Debian and Ubuntu
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damiano	hi there
* damiano <== Aquarius
damiano	so you'd now from now on
Strangelv	Reason for the change?
* Strangelv isn't sure why somenoe would change one's cognomen. Admittedly, he didn't get one until he was in his 20s and has kept it with minor adaptations ever since
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damiano	well... it's my account name on Debian.. and also Aquarius is occupied here by someone.
Strangelv	So we had two aquarii?
Strangelv	Or is that just on this IRC server
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Strangelv	wb
Strangelv	The topics are marketing, TDE branded products,. and the team member formerly known as Aquarius
Strangelv	"oh, and things wve might be able to swipe fromt IceWM
damiano	yeah
damiano	two probably.
damiano	well i'm the one with former audio prob and deep tab buttons obsession :)
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 630 filed by chaotickjg@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=630 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, KMail issue with gpg keys
Strangelv	"Deep tab buttons.  The topmost application is the pushed button, right?
damiano	Z_God, hoi hoi
Strangelv	Push one button and the last pushed button pops back up?
Z_God	damiano: hi
damiano	exactly
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damiano	Strangelv, and it's been fixed. Dunno if someone took my request or not, but it's alright now;
Strangelv	"Hello
Strangelv	I can't say as I'm still using 12
damiano	it looks like KDE 3.0 tabs now
damiano	i wonder who did it though... probably someone heard me, but nobody speaks of it...
damiano	Strangelv, you should upgrade, 13 is ok
Strangelv	My main memory with 3.0 is that after I installed the second time my menus permanantly disappeared.  I still have the HD for this system somewhere
damiano	well... TDE is not KDE ;)
Strangelv	Just set the repository and apt-get dist-upgrade?  My plan at present is to fix networking on my notebook and test upgrading to 13 and the current version of Ubuntu on it first
Strangelv	The probrlem with my menus was the transition code was there in 3.0 but not in 3.1
Strangelv	...and my install disk was 2.x
Strangelv	...and I didn' have the money to buy Liblanet 3.0 during the brief windhow it was available anywhere at any price
damiano	well... i dunno how to do it actually.
damiano	maybe to delete old one and install newer...
Strangelv	KDE 2 -> KDE 3 a completely historical problem anyway
Borg^Queen	What's distro have the latest release of tde stock
Borg^Queen	or do we have a fresh iso
Borg^Queen	Strangelv: I didn't have that many problems
Borg^Queen	the switch from kde2 to kde3, the biggest problem was konq crashing every now and then.
Strangelv	I didn't have that kind of problem when it was 2 -> 3.0
Z_God	hah, you all remember the switch from 1 -> 2?
Strangelv	I had to reinstall sometime after that and 3.0 was no longer available in any respository I knew of as an intermediate step
Borg^Queen	What did you have? Do we have an ISO release, like a kubuntu?
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Borg^Queen	Z_God: its was ok, just had to learn a bunch of new stuff
Borg^Queen	hi MutantTurkey
Borg^Queen	but I entered during the switch from 1 to 2
* Z_God is happy he's not the only old person here
Strangelv	I missed 1 -> 2 as I didn't have a usable desktop until afterwords.  I kept looking at the candy store dselect was offering and loaded up on packages that then failed to install and that was my installation.
Borg^Queen	lol
Borg^Queen	I'm always careful, only a couple of packages at a time.
MutantTurkey	hey
Borg^Queen	using rpms it was easy
Borg^Queen	hey
MutantTurkey	WOOHOO MY favorite band just reunited with their ex drummer!
Borg^Queen	So no ISOs?
MutantTurkey	:D
Borg^Queen	What band?
Z_God	Borg^Queen: not yet
Z_God	if you want a trinity only system, the best thing is still installing a commandline only ubuntu
Borg^Queen	rats
Z_God	and then adding the repos to that
Borg^Queen	I hate ubuntu, no offense
Strangelv	On at least one system I started with Ubuntustudia.  I believe that's teh one running in my office
Strangelv	ubuntu isn't what it used to be.  I'm open to suggestions for a Debian-sbased replacement that's as good as it used to be
Borg^Queen	isn't that a educational version?
Strangelv	It's the musician/editor/producer aimed version
Borg^Queen	Strangelv: aye the only good release of ubuntu was the first couple
MutantTurkey	I hate ubuntu as well.
Strangelv	So where did Ubuntu go wrong and what would we want to rip out in a custom TDE-centric distro that had access to its amazingly well supported package base?
damiano	Borg^Queen, what are you using then if you hate Ubuntu?
samelian	hey, anybody have a computer/laptop with host pluggable battery or something like this?
Strangelv	Is Ubuntu still loaded with gotchas for mixing its packages with regular Debian?
samelian	host = hot*
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: I don't trust What's his name, shuttfleford or worth, whatever
Borg^Queen	damiano: I use the releases of kubuntu rolled by Tim
damiano	ah
samelian	i will need to check my layer between TDE and DBus/UPower
Borg^Queen	Strangelv: yes and no
MutantTurkey	shuttleworth
Strangelv	"I'm not sure what constitutes not hot pluggable.  You plug the bttery in and the system crashes or shuts down or loses its magic smoke?
MutantTurkey	samelian: I do.
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: that's the guy, don't trust him
MutantTurkey	a pluggable battery or a laptop battery?
MutantTurkey	yeah....
MutantTurkey	not sure either
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samelian	I will need to check if events triggered when a new battery is plugged
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MutantTurkey	samelian: I can do that
* Strangelv 's notebook has network problems that he has yet to solve. He can't even connect with a cable right now. He should probably test with a LiveCD to rule out hardware trouble
Borg^Queen	samelian: what model laptop, never heard of a hotpluggable bat for a lt
MutantTurkey	just pull out the battery while on regular laptop
samelian	ok, I will tell you when I'm ready with interface
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: mine is.
MutantTurkey	I can take it out and it stays on.
Borg^Queen	cool
MutantTurkey	at least.
MutantTurkey	then replu
Borg^Queen	Hmm careful
Borg^Queen	Are you sure you can do that
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samelian	i won't to risk to unplug my battery when the laptop is running :)
Borg^Queen	hi slacky
Strangelv	My notebook is running 12 and Meerkat, so it's not good for testing anything current
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Borg^Queen	I don't keep laptops, I fix them up and donate them to kollige stooodents and the home bound
Borg^Queen	but I realize, I should keep a few for testing. I mostly get rubbish for trade ins but I also get Ibms too.
Strangelv	For a few years that was what I did almost everything on because I didn't have a solution for installing a desktop in my cramped and seriously cluttered bedroom
Borg^Queen	brb
Borg^Queen	Ah, I always made room for a desktop. I prefer them to LTs
Strangelv	Actually if there was a LiveCD image with what needed ot be tested i could do it that awy
Borg^Queen	brb
samelian	MutantTurkey: you accept a binary from me to make a test?
Strangelv	I stopped using notebooks for the most part when I solved that problem.  My main problem now is finding two affordable Socket F fans so that I no longer have a workstation at one end of my house that can be heard from the other
MutantTurkey	samelian: sure
samelian	hang on
MutantTurkey	x86_64
MutantTurkey	build it statically?
samelian	MutantTurkey: wget thel.ro/upower_test
samelian	no, x86
samelian	hmm, will not working
MutantTurkey	no it won
MutantTurkey	can you build a 64bit binary?
samelian	nope, I have a 64 bit machine prepared for TDE
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samelian	hang on, I will give you sources
MutantTurkey	gcc -m64
samelian	I hope will be compilable
MutantTurkey	that will build it in 64bits
MutantTurkey	afaik
samelian	maybe, but my tde is 32 bit
MutantTurkey	:/
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MutantTurkey	let me try
samelian	MutantTurkey: wget thel.ro/eventloop.tar.gz
samelian	should work, is cmake based
MutantTurkey	cant build it
MutantTurkey	did you hardwire the moc lcation?
MutantTurkey	make[2]: /usr/qt/3/bin/moc: Command not found
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MutantTurkey	hey chaky
samelian	delete alt cmake cache files
MutantTurkey	ok
samelian	ah, no
samelian	check top level cmake
samelian	and put correct path
MutantTurkey	okay
Borg^Queen	hi chaky
MutantTurkey	got it
MutantTurkey	got it
MutantTurkey	okay
MutantTurkey	No rule to make target /opt/trinity/lib/libkglib.so.0, needed by eventloop
samelian	I think can be removed
samelian	I do not use it anymore
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: what does that mean, the error
MutantTurkey	ok
samelian	meaning that libkglib.so.0 doesn't on his system
MutantTurkey	right
samelian	is one of mine earlier attempts
Borg^Queen	doesn't what
MutantTurkey	do you want a backtrace or anything?
samelian	a bridge betwen TDE and glib
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damiano	does anybody know, is there a way to record skype without using skype recorder?
samelian	MutantTurkey: you can run it?
MutantTurkey	recording off of /dev/video
MutantTurkey	samelian: yes
Borg^Queen	damiano: what do you mean
damiano	i mean audio
damiano	to record convos
samelian	is enough a copy paste of output
MutantTurkey	samelian: okay
Borg^Queen	Oh yes, use rezound or audacity or soniK
MutantTurkey	let me try
damiano	Borg^Queen, does it really work like that? Would be cool
damiano	gonna try with Audacity
Borg^Queen	set the reording app to record from the internal output
damiano	thanks!
damiano	:)
damiano	i'll give it a shot
damiano	i knew it's possible without skype recorder
Borg^Queen	good luck it helps of you have software mixing
damiano	yeah, i do.
damiano	since not long ago
damiano	had to update ALSA, and Z_God helped me with that
Borg^Queen	ok good, I know it works for me because I've done the same.
MutantTurkey	samelian: http://pastebin.com/ANyZB00U
MutantTurkey	that is the output of of taking battery out and back in
damiano	but i had to compile it, it's not available for Debian as deb..
samelian	nice, there is little error
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: have you seen Fat-Zer latel
MutantTurkey	samelian: all is okay?
damiano	now sound is even nice than in Windows.. sound there is a bit fuzzy..
samelian	I pasted by mistake "remove" on add "procedure"
damiano	nicer*
Borg^Queen	Nope, not for a long time, but I've also been off for a while too
samelian	MutantTurkey: replate line #359 in UPower_TClient_p.cpp
samelian	with qWarning("Device added: %s", path.latin1());
MutantTurkey	replate?
samelian	replace :)
damiano	works!!
MutantTurkey	okay :D
Z_God	damiano: you actually have a deb now
damiano	Audacity rocks
damiano	Z_God, i know
damiano	Z_God, but i had to make it, had i not?
Z_God	yep, but also based on another deb
damiano	ah..
Z_God	there is also the option of really doing it with only source packages
Z_God	but that is significantly messier
MutantTurkey	samelian: what is the reason for using qt?
MutantTurkey	isnt that just slow?
MutantTurkey	let me recompile
damiano	well thanks again man.. without you i'd never have made it. Furthermore this chan has been more helpful to me in all the ways than Debian support one.
damiano	Z_God, so shall i keep the deb for future?
Z_God	I guess the debian one is overcrowded
Z_God	damiano: if you'll be using the same kernel, then yes
samelian	MutantTurkey: is a tde layer, qt is required :)
Z_God	otherwise, just compile it again
damiano	aha, goit it
damiano	thanks :)
damiano	it's overcrowded yes, but of no advantage
damiano	there are only questions, but no answers ;)
Z_God	yes, that's the problem of the overcrowdedness
Z_God	I had the same when I tried to ask smth about ubuntu
Strangelv	Taht sounds like teh Ubunut channel I was in.  No one answeerd my questions normally, I spent all my time helping other pe;ople with their problems, and got in trouble for telling pople to create a root password...
Strangelv	"Things to change in an ubuntu package using distro: have a root password
Strangelv	anyone who would run away scraming fgorm teh idea is probably not using our desktop environment
Borg^Queen	?
Z_God	I don't get it either
Z_God	I avoid root passwords as well now
damiano	you know what, if all those people knew that help is being held better here they'd all just kick in here
Borg^Queen	oh hell no. I always have a root password
damiano	and thank goodness they don't know it :)
Z_God	I don't see the point of having one if sudo is secure
Strangelv	I have a minimum of one root console running at all times.  Actually two.  One in konsole the other in TTY2
Strangelv	"Frequantly another in TTY3
Z_God	I luckily do not need to do system administration on my own boxes so often
MutantTurkey	http://pastebin.com/zmxk5Acr
Strangelv	My understanding is Sudo isn't more secure, but itas also a lot more typing.  I suppose it depends on how long your password is...
Z_God	Strangelv: your setup is not secury outside of a private environment
samelian	MutantTurkey: cool, working as expected
samelian	thanks
MutantTurkey	ok awesome
Borg^Queen	its a phrase in Gealic
Z_God	someone could walk in & have root on your box
Z_God	secure*
MutantTurkey	and qt is required?
samelian	this layer will stay between TDE and UPower
MutantTurkey	is it interacting with dbus or what?
Strangelv	Yes, I'm rlelyingo n my being in a privaet environment
samelian	yes
Strangelv	So other's mileage may vary substantially
Borg^Queen	aye
Z_God	at work this is a no-no
Strangelv	so maybe a root password is held as an option
MutantTurkey	so do programs directly functions? or do they call dbus?
samelian	I will create a constellation of layers between TDE and upower, udisk, networkmanager etc
samelian	call dbus
samelian	then we will just create some nice interfaces for network, power, disk management
MutantTurkey	awesome
MutantTurkey	you rock!
samelian	will be a kind of interface between TDE and Linux ecosystem
samelian	i tell you, TDE will be much nicer than KDE4 :)
* Strangelv cheers loudly
samelian	at least from developer perspective
MutantTurkey	well definitely
MutantTurkey	this is truely awesome
MutantTurkey	you suspect it will be ready for R14?
* MutantTurkey rather likes calling it R14 instead of 3.5.14
samelian	I think yes, I will recreate KPowersave, based on this new upower layer
samelian	I intent to make kcontrol module for this
MutantTurkey	excellent
Xu_R	yo, people :)
MutantTurkey	that is good
MutantTurkey	Xu_R: yo samelian is making good progress on Upower
Xu_R	w00t! :D
samelian	I hope until next release we will drop HAL
damiano	can anyone write something to me? Either by the nickname or privately to check sound notification
samelian	damiano: ping
damiano	hm...
damiano	nothing
MutantTurkey	damiano: pong
damiano	nope...
MutantTurkey	samelian: please do! hal is not good :{
Borg^Queen	Xu_R: hey, how are things on the front
samelian	MutantTurkey: hehe, I agree
MutantTurkey	the front?
Borg^Queen	HAL stinks, no offencce
MutantTurkey	samelian: if you need help I am always here to test whatever
Xu_R	Borg^Queen: getting better, which is good
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: Xu_R is a member of the PLF, the penguin liberation front
* MutantTurkey is working on kicker
samelian	ok, I will tell when I will need more tests
MutantTurkey	samelian: oh boy
MutantTurkey	samelian: ok
Xu_R	lololol
Borg^Queen	PENGIUN OR DEATH
Borg^Queen	did I spell penguin correctly
Borg^Queen	yes, ok
Xu_R	._.
samelian	I have many plans for TDE, but I have'n enough time :)
damiano	xchat doesn't play anything automatically...
damiano	no sounds at all
Borg^Queen	samelian: :(
Borg^Queen	make sure you have it set to use the right sound engine
Xu_R	damiano: I think you have to set sounds
Xu_R	because my Xchat doesn't do it either
samelian	sometime I want to change kdesktop, to support a kind of widgets, like plasmoids
Xu_R	but i'm happy with it being mute because the notification popup is easier
Xu_R	than tons of sounds
damiano	Xu_R, hm...
damiano	well, sometimes i don't notice it blinking
damiano	that's the prob
damiano	so i need at least a little beep
Xu_R	oic
Xu_R	should be on settings -> alerts
MutantTurkey	samelian: see how that goes over with Tim...
damiano	yeah, i've checked it
MutantTurkey	I dont think he likes that idea
damiano	but nothing.
Xu_R	restart xchat? >_>
damiano	hm... can try.
MutantTurkey	I would like to create a plugin based system that is extensible though.
damiano	but that shouldn't matter..
damiano	i think.
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samelian	MutantTurkey: what kind of idea disagree Tim?
samelian	plasmoids?
MutantTurkey	plasmoids, widgets
MutantTurkey	he doesnt like them I dont think
samelian	hmm, can be very usefull
samelian	for network status, notes, etc
Xu_R	I agree, that can be very useful. >_> however, we should not force everything into a widget like KDE4...
samelian	for sure
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damiano	now try it
Borg^Queen	are plasmoids any good
Borg^Queen	They've always seemed to be a bother to get going
samelian	this must pe carefuly planned
samelian	be*
Borg^Queen	A plasmoid
Borg^Queen	?
MutantTurkey	samelian: hopefully not eat all my CPU
Xu_R	no, a plasmoid
Xu_R	is like google widgets
MutantTurkey	I think it should be very plugin based
Xu_R	on your desktop.
MutantTurkey	I know
MutantTurkey	samelian: plugin based C++ modules?
samelian	I think that kdesktop widget should be like a small applets, similar to kdetray
Strangelv	Could we allow a wiredr range of languages?
Borg^Queen	I don't like google widgets or yahoo, they're so problematic. I've always like karamba
samelian	yes, kind of kde modules, like for kcontrol
MutantTurkey	Strangelv: no that is bad.
MutantTurkey	just adds bloat...
* Xu_R points to kdebindings as proof
MutantTurkey	samelian: wait!
MutantTurkey	what about using Kparts?
MutantTurkey	couldn't we in theory just use kparts?
samelian	yes, something like this
MutantTurkey	to embed a browser, a file manager
MutantTurkey	etc
MutantTurkey	then create kparts for specific desktop stuff
MutantTurkey	like plasmoids
Borg^Queen	what are you guys trying to do
samelian	for example, would be nice to integrate konsole kpart into kdesktop :)
jumpship	I'd love it if kicker panels could sorta float anywhere on screen and be set to stay behind windows, then any kicker applet could be a widget
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: oh that's smart
MutantTurkey	samelian: so kparts are already done
MutantTurkey	all needed is integration with kdestop
samelian	yes, we just need to change kdekstop to accept it
MutantTurkey	hmmm
MutantTurkey	that is good. I like that.
samelian	and we will be able integrate anything in desktop
MutantTurkey	also I am thinking about creating a kickre applet for similar kpart integration
MutantTurkey	basically i could embed konsole into it or something, have it work like yakuake
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: you have milliseconds of genius.
MutantTurkey	samelian: cheers! you are quite the genius!
samelian	but there are for future, I'm the only one, TDE is big :)
samelian	hehe
Strangelv	This could also presumably allow a user to not even run Kicker or Kickoff
Borg^Queen	oh sweet really, I love yakuake
MutantTurkey	tde is not so big as i thought
MutantTurkey	it is big though
MutantTurkey	gotta go guys
MutantTurkey	calss is over
MutantTurkey	:)
* Strangelv waves
MutantTurkey	be back later
Borg^Queen	bye
samelian	Strangelv: yes, like window maker :)
Borg^Queen	samelian: you and MutantTurkey make a good team
samelian	hehe
Borg^Queen	brb crakmonkey crying on phone
samelian	btw, should be nice to find a solution to isolate somehow plugin from kdesktop
samelian	otherwise, bad written widget will crash kdesktop either
jumpship	How does superkaramba fit in with that idea, isn't that what it's for?
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samelian	not sure, I did not used superkaramba
damiano	hmmm
jumpship	Me either, always planned on looking into it, never did
damiano	i missed one thing...
samelian	I think should be like kwin, wich embrace any arbitrary application with borders
damiano	it records skype only, but not me talking... cause there can be either stereo mixer or mic... how did you say yoy do it?
jumpship	Well, it might be as simple as a mod to kwin, one sec
damiano	i guess mic has to be a part of stereo mixer, all in one, somehow
jumpship	Looking at kwin's user rules, any window can be forced to a specific size, and forced to be always below other windows
Borg^Queen	damiano: make sure you mic is set to on. you need to be able to hear  youself too.
Borg^Queen	Use headphones
samelian	jumpship: yes, kind of
jumpship	also no task bar or system tray
Borg^Queen	jumpship: kwin has a lot of advantagges
damiano	Borg^Queen, that's what i'm doing
damiano	have no speakers
Borg^Queen	ok
Borg^Queen	ah ok
damiano	Borg^Queen, let's see...
samelian	damiano: there is TDE channel :)
Borg^Queen	jumpship: I like taskbars and systrays, I have an upper  and lower kicker
damiano	samelian, huh?
Borg^Queen	?
samelian	I mean, skype is not a subject related to tde
Borg^Queen	Its not a skype issue
jumpship	Borg^Queen:   So do I, I have a lot of panels
Borg^Queen	jumpship: aye
jumpship	I use kwins rules to embed vlc sorta into kicker
Borg^Queen	samelian: he's trying to record skype using kde tde tools
Borg^Queen	jumpship: really lol
samelian	ah, I did not noticed
Borg^Queen	samelian: not to worry, you were only trying to help.
jumpship	So, what would a desktop widget do or have that can't be done with that?
Borg^Queen	samelian: however, that bit of info is good to know. I didn't know they had a skype channel.
samelian	i'm not sure yet, is just an idea for the further development
damiano	well.. audacity is not really a kde/tde tool :)
damiano	at least not the one i'm using here..
Borg^Queen	true but still. I would recommend rezound better control
Borg^Queen	samelian: what are you trying to achieve?
jumpship	I like MT's idea of a kparts kicker applet, that could connect even more stuff
damiano	listen... the prob is, it allows me to use mic or stereo mixer (no mic), but not together... and also, it corresponds with ALSA and changes the source respectivelly.
samelian	Borg^Queen: to expose my unrealistic ideas :)
Borg^Queen	LOL
damiano	what should be the input source anyway?
Borg^Queen	samelian: that's what they said about putting a human on the moon
Borg^Queen	damiano: ambiant and mic
damiano	ambiant?!
damiano	what's that?
Borg^Queen	That's why you need hardware or software mixing
damiano	i see.......
Borg^Queen	ambiant is any sound playing
samelian	Borg^Queen: unforunately we are only few developers with enough skills to implement these ideas
damiano	ok.. so it appears i have no hardware mixing. Though... skype recorder would still allow me to do that.
damiano	but let us just think it has its own magic. What now? Do i have to install something?
Borg^Queen	samelian: never give up
samelian	actually I want to work on low level things
samelian	dbus, kioslaves, etc
Borg^Queen	kioslave rocks
samelian	yeap
Borg^Queen	damiano: without knowing how your laptop is setup, I'm limited in what I can do to help.
samelian	I working on a replacement for kio_sftp, based on libssh2
jumpship	Borg^Queen: If you saw Strangelv's animation the other day, that last screenshot is mine
damiano	Borg^Queen, actually i have no laptop
Borg^Queen	To record two sounds, your voice and skype, you need to be able to play two sounds at the same time.
samelian	but kio_sftp project stalled because a bug in libssh2
damiano	Borg^Queen, but i can copy the details of my audio setup to you.
Borg^Queen	jumpship: checking
Borg^Queen	damiano: wouldn't help,
damiano	hm...
damiano	alright..
Borg^Queen	you need to beable to play two sounds at once
Borg^Queen	try it
damiano	i dunno how! It's either one or another.
Borg^Queen	open a movie and a play a tune
damiano	when i switch to stereo mixer is shuts off the mic
damiano	and the other way around
Borg^Queen	ah, then you can't
damiano	yep.. that's the prob..
Borg^Queen	no audio mixing
Borg^Queen	rats
damiano	so.. that means i can't record skype.
Borg^Queen	I would take samelian advice and go to #skype, they might know a trick
jumpship	Your sound card prob is only able to record from one source at a time, and with skype you'd need the rec source set to mic
damiano	yep...
Borg^Queen	jumpship: cool nick btw
jumpship	The only way I can think of would be to use something like jack (maybe pulse can so it)
jumpship	I like your's as well
jumpship	I'm in the middle of rewatching TNG right now
Borg^Queen	your desktop is the one with vlc and the backyard?
Borg^Queen	sunday 11:44 am?
jumpship	yeah, that pic is ron Strangelv, he didn't think The original I was using was a good idea
jumpship	ron=from
Borg^Queen	how do you mean?
jumpship	it was a pic or tux swating at the MS butterfly that was attacking carmen electra
Borg^Queen	LOL
jumpship	I got it off the web, search for "tux defends carmen" if ya wanna see it
Borg^Queen	lol ok
jumpship	One of my favorites
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Borg^Queen	wb
jumpship	She's not naked or anything, but pretty close
MutantTurkey	cant freaking figure out Kickoff D::::::::::::
MutantTurkey	pissing me off
MutantTurkey	jumpship: what?
MutantTurkey	lets keep it P.G. this is a family channel :P
Borg^Queen	o0
jumpship	I was just talking about the wallpaper I was using when I sent Strangelv my screencap the first time
Borg^Queen	this is one of my favs http://www.wallpaperist.com/wallpapers/Funny/No-more-Vista-800-600.jpg
jumpship	It was brought up then that it was prob a bad idea to use that pic in the promo animation
jumpship	Thats great, his troubles are over, too bad he didn't know about alterantives
Borg^Queen	Well it was shown to me by a client that I switched to linux.
Borg^Queen	He tried, xp, vista and win7 and always had problems. Bought 8 computers.
Borg^Queen	Turns out none of them were broken as MS suggested.
jumpship	MutantTurkey:   http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/249/jumpship.jpg/ if you were wondering
MutantTurkey	oh that :p
MutantTurkey	yes a bad idea definitely
MutantTurkey	also we want to have a healthy range of images
Borg^Queen	lol
MutantTurkey	newish looking, sleek, minimal, bloated, old school, redmond
MutantTurkey	ya know?
MutantTurkey	to show flexible.
jumpship	I couldn't find it, but a friend on mine that I switched had a wallpaper that was a very bloody squashed MS butterfly
Borg^Queen	nice
jumpship	Speaking of looks, did anyone know you could use Icewm themes with trinity?
samelian	only if you replace kwin with icewm window manager :)
jumpship	No need, kwin has a theme that uses icewm pixmap themes
damiano	found skype recorder for amd64. works fine.
damiano	one guy built it.
jumpship	I had no idea, I never bothered to use anything special because it looked like it required c++ for a custom kwin theme
damiano	to be fair, it's better than any windows one
jumpship	samelian: Since your a coder, do you think it would be difficult to make kwin a bit easier for a user to create simple themes?
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	it would be
samelian	hmm, i'm not sure, I'm not familiar with kwin
Borg^Queen	ok I did a google search for "go rangers" an old amime and got celtic music
MutantTurkey	I am vaguely familiar with kwin
MutantTurkey	I have been hacking on itall week
jumpship	MutantTurkey: why do you say that?
MutantTurkey	fixing up the laptop theme
MutantTurkey	because it would require basically a wysiwyg editor for it
MutantTurkey	a total PITA
Borg^Queen	lol
MutantTurkey	themes basically are using maual Qt drawing calls
Borg^Queen	kwin is great but it needs to be cleaned up
MutantTurkey	if you just need pixmaps, use the icewm themer
jumpship	I mean sorta integrate what is already there in the icewm theme
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: whats wrong wit hit?
MutantTurkey	jumpship: well use that icewm thinger
damiano	can anyone tell me why Tahoma's "P" look weird on linux? :)
MutantTurkey	whats wrong with the icewm one?
MutantTurkey	damiano: I hate linux fonts >_>
Borg^Queen	everyone says it needs to be cleaned of spare code and updated slightly
MutantTurkey	everything looks crap
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: welcome to software 101
damiano	MutantTurkey, me too, but it's win's tahoma, it's fune
damiano	fine*
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: ?
jumpship	I don't really mean for myself, I have no prob with that, Strangelv and I were talking about it earlier, I just wondered
damiano	i disabled anti-aliasing too with sharpfonts scropt
damiano	script*
MutantTurkey	this is required for all code.
Borg^Queen	I have no problems with fonts
MutantTurkey	damiano: I dunno, I like anti aliasing
damiano	Borg^Queen, on high res LCD monitors it may not be noticeable
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: I know that, but it hasn't been cleaned in while, according to kde
damiano	MutantTurkey, nah, that's the problem, it's anti-aliasing that causing all the crap
damiano	or hinting
damiano	it's not correct on linux
Borg^Queen	damiano: I use lcd and crt
Borg^Queen	but you're right, fonts look bad under 1024x768
damiano	i'm on 800x600 ;)
Borg^Queen	oooooh that's why
damiano	but i removed all anti-aliasing as i installed sharpfonts script and it's very good.
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: right, which is why we need more maintainers for specific code
damiano	so everything looks like in Windows ;)
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: your kb to God's screen
MutantTurkey	?
samelian	damiano: if you won't use antialising, you need to recompile freetype with bytecode interpreter
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: we need more devels
MutantTurkey	yes
MutantTurkey	which means people need to step up
MutantTurkey	cough cough
damiano	samelian, let me just show you.
MutantTurkey	not just general devels
samelian	damiano: this is my desktop
samelian	http://thel.ro/desktop.png
MutantTurkey	I mean specific devels
Strangelv	"Is anytnhing in Python and/or Javascript? 8)
MutantTurkey	if someone could take over stuff like kwin specifically
damiano	is that your desktop?
MutantTurkey	or kicker etc
damiano	samelian
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: I'm not a hacker, I do hardware
Borg^Queen	just learning to mess about with it
damiano	oh yeah, i see
damiano	well, let me show you mine
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: learn or donate yotime in another wayur
damiano	http://89.28.122.14:8080/Screenshot-3.png
MutantTurkey	as long as you help :)
Borg^Queen	MutantTurkey: I've got a stack of test machines here waiting
damiano	http://89.28.122.14:8080/Screenshot-4.png
MutantTurkey	Borg^Queen: test test test!
samelian	damiano: I think you font is a little too big
samelian	try to reduce it
damiano	it's just lowres
Borg^Queen	Doing that
damiano	i can make it smaller, but no need.
damiano	i like it this way. I just need another monitor.
MutantTurkey	yeah
damiano	samelian, i've done it many times, i can put it to 8, but i'm ok with 9
samelian	i see
samelian	but "P" still ugly with 8?
damiano	8 looks better on TDE
damiano	hm... never checked.. let me see :)
samelian	hmm, seems that my "P" is pixeled either, I did not notice it until now :)
samelian	but is not noticeable easy on 1280x800
damiano	on TDE it wasn't like that though
damiano	only on Gnome
damiano	samelian, i have a little request
samelian	?
damiano	could you go to web right now and make a screenshot of any page? Or google search? Just type in something and i wanna see how the page gets displayed
MutantTurkey	darrell is awesome
samelian	sure, hang on
Borg^Queen	?
damiano	there's something about fonts... some bold ones are blurry by me...like sharpfonts didn't work on it. Though also depends on the browser.
damiano	ok.
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samelian	damiano: http://thel.ro/chromium.png
damiano	hm... you're from Romania
damiano	nice, thanks.
damiano	good font
samelian	yes, I have a sister in Italy :)
samelian	you're Italian, right?
MutantTurkey	Timothy just announced that R14 is bug release only
damiano	nope.
damiano	it's only name)
damiano	but i'm your neighbour ;)
samelian	hehe
damiano	Moldova
samelian	aa
damiano	yep..
samelian	you know Romania I guess
samelian	Romanian*
damiano	i knew you'd ask ;)
damiano	but no. Sorry.
damiano	i'm a russian moldavian.
samelian	aha, I see
damiano	i mean.. i know some things..
samelian	I'm a kind of russian too
damiano	oh really..
damiano	how did you get to know russian?
samelian	my ancients established in Romania, few hundred years ago
samelian	and my parent still using a kind of russian old dialect
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damiano	i see.
damiano	interesting.
MutantTurkey	samelian: how much progress have you on Upower?
MutantTurkey	time announced that r14 was bug release only, I said "what about samelians power interface"
MutantTurkey	he didnt know you have been working on it.
samelian	MutantTurkey: i'm not sure yet, this is just an abstract layer to upower
samelian	to be usable, we need to write a brand new power management system
samelian	a replacement for kpowersave
samelian	and, as I said, this new application should be part of kcontrol
MutantTurkey	right so probably not done for R14
samelian	when will be released R14?
MutantTurkey	6 months afaik
MutantTurkey	but we are shooting for VERY VERY stable desktop
samelian	aa, plenty of time
samelian	I very close to finish abstract layer
MutantTurkey	okay, are you on email access right now?
samelian	yes
MutantTurkey	could you respond to the thread "Quality Assurance"
MutantTurkey	that is where i mentioned you
samelian	however, I'm not sure that we will be able to drop HAL at all, because we will need other abstact layer, to udisk, for example
MutantTurkey	are you not writing it for udisk as well?
MutantTurkey	sorry for ruining the suprise :x
samelian	haha
samelian	no, I want to write it modular
samelian	each module with its own namespace, etc
samelian	but I will try to make they consistent
MutantTurkey	I like this
MutantTurkey	then we can slowly phase our hal
MutantTurkey	out'
Borg^Queen	ok gn to all
Borg^Queen	yes please, hal always messed up for me
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tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 631 filed by chaotickjg@gmail.com.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=631 normal, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, CalDAV option KOrganizer causes KOrganizer to crash
damiano	samelian, how did you make your font look nice anyway?
samelian	I have freetype with bytecode interpreter support and I disabled antialiasing :)
damiano	hm...
damiano	ok.. apparently everybody solves his issues in his own way :)
damiano	does anyone use any dictionaries/translators on linux?
damiano	does anybody know why it takes so long to access CD/DVD drive if any media in?
tbottu	10New TDE 3.5 bug 632 filed by albator78@libertysurf.fr.
tbottu	04Bug http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=632 minor, P5, ---, kb9vqf, NEW, Keramik window decoration does not work
damiano	hmm
damiano	but only CD media actually
damiano	weird
damiano	dvd opens up quickly.
damiano	hm... and yet only CD-RW
damiano	no.. all CDs.
* Strangelv finally finds http://xkcd.com/763/ in reference to what daimiano said several minutes ago
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* Strangelv needs to figure out how to find XKCD strips faster. It loses its punch if everyone times out before he can find the attempt to add levity
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Strangelv	Evening/morning
l0ner	evening
Strangelv	Byte has been brought back from the dead again as an online magazine again.  I wonder if we could do something that could capture their attention.  ...assuming anyone notices that they're back again
l0ner	byte?
Strangelv	It really needs to get back into print.  That's the one magazine EVERYONE was subscribed to
l0ner	ok, a magazin
l0ner	e
l0ner	argh... I can't really think at this hour
Strangelv	Perhaps the most important one in the history of computin,g at least after 1975
l0ner	and after 8h spent at university
Strangelv	Datamation or similar may hald that distinction for prior to that
Strangelv	oof
Strangelv	noted
l0ner	and on top of that i'm listening to the narwhals song...
Strangelv	I'm forced to scrib my plants fornow as well and hope I can get it done early enough tomorrow
l0ner	ok, well I think that getting attention on any place in the net is important to trinity
* Strangelv : http://www.informationweek.com/byte/
Strangelv	"Byte is historically very generalized
Strangelv	It was the place to go to catch up on, well, everything
l0ner	well, i think I'll look it up tommorow
Strangelv	It was also frequentyl teh only place to find out about new language,s new platforms, new processors, et c.
l0ner	since I'm slowly fading away...
l0ner	Well, i can imagine that
* l0ner is going to sleep
l0ner	i'm too tired to stay awake
* Strangelv is too, but really doesn't want to.
Strangelv	see you tomorrow hopefully?
l0ner	hopefully
l0ner	but idk, since I have tommorow 8h of university too
l0ner	;/
l0ner	so I don'
l0ner	t
l0ner	know in what state i'll return home
l0ner	anyway, cya
l0ner	g'night
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damiano	back
damiano	anyone there?
Z_God	damiano: about to go to bed
Z_God	damiano: as for your question on dictionaries, I run Lingvo 10 in Wine
Z_God	still need to look into getting a newer version to work some time
Z_God	good night all!
damiano	ok, thanks.
damiano	i was asking for some other than winapp thing.. for linux, as for win i have dictionaries too..
damiano	see ya, night night
Z_God	if you have other dictionaries working in Wine, I'm very interested to hear about that!
Z_God	I'll ask you again some time, really need to leave now...
Z_God	see you!
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Piki	hi
damiano